Steelers trade for Minkah Fitzpatrick

[BlackAndGold]

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[Edman]

I'm absolutely baffled by this, but okay. The absolute stones of the front office.

[BlackAndGold]

This is just shocking.

They are all in on Rudolph.

[Mojouw]

Daaaaaayyyyyyyyyuuuuuum

Colbert is a steely-eyed gunslinger.

So many questions. But, I'm gonna have to wait and see what smarter people than me say first.

[Shoes]

Man if this is so... not sure about this at all. No TE again next year. :chuckle:

[Hawkman]

I need additional confirmation.

[steelreserve]

Well, that was unexpected.

[Edman]

This effectively wipes out all possibility of a tank this season. The Steelers are REALLY banking big on Mason Rudolph. I mean REALLY big.

[Mojouw]

Ok. I lied. I'mma just gonna go ahead and be overly excited. So....I really like this draft site...and here is their write-up of Fitzpatrick: https://www.thehuddlereport.com/archive/2018profiles/Minkah.Fitzpatrick.htm

Reading that, I have visions of a certain shampoo pitchman who kinda made this whole thing work a few years back.

To be clear, I am not putting them on the same level, just saying that a flexible chess piece on the back-end may fix a ton of what ails this team...

So who do they cut? Who gets sent to the bench and how soon? So exciting - even if he bombs it is exciting.

[Shoes]

I need additional confirmation.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001055920/article/dolphins-s-minkah-fitzpatrick-traded-to-steelers

[teegre]

This effectively wipes out all possibility of a tank this season. The Steelers are REALLY banking big on Mason Rudolph. I mean REALLY big.

:nod: Yep

If the Steelers suck, they now have no shot at Herbert (et al). Thankfully, they (like I do) have a ton of confidence in Rudolph.

[hwalker84]

Holy shit!!

[steelreserve]

It certainly is interesting. If it is the missing piece that fizes the secondary, it could go down as a great trade. If Rudolph bombs out and this turns into a top-5 pick, it could go down as the worst trade in team history.

BIG BALLS though!

[Mojouw]

:nod: Yep

If the Steelers suck, they now have no shot at Herbert (et al). Thankfully, they (like I do) have a ton of confidence in Rudolph.

Or it is all part of 5 dimensional chess strategy for Lawrence in 2021.

I call it "Lay-up for Lawrence". Still workshopping that...

[Bluecoat96]

*cue the armchair GMs that are pissed off.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

[Mojouw]

Weird thought: This trade only happens because Ben R gets hurt. 'Phins figure a Ben R team rights the ship and the pick is middle to lower half of the first round. Now, they figure it is top 12...let us hope they are wrong.

[teegre]

Ok. I lied. I'mma just gonna go ahead and be overly excited. So....I really like this draft site...and here is their write-up of Fitzpatrick: https://www.thehuddlereport.com/archive/2018profiles/Minkah.Fitzpatrick.htm

Reading that, I have visions of a certain shampoo pitchman who kinda made this whole thing work a few years back.

To be clear, I am not putting them on the same level, just saying that a flexible chess piece on the back-end may fix a ton of what ails this team...

So who do they cut? Who gets sent to the bench and how soon? So exciting - even if he bombs it is exciting.

Out of college, he was one of Saban’s all-time favorite players. Minkah was like an extra coach. Really.

That said... he’s not a safety. He is a slot CB.

Then again, he eliminates the opposition’s third receiver. With Nelson playing so well, teams will have a tough time beating us through the air.

[86WARD]

I don’t know...if he just wants to be a nickel back was it really worth the first round pick? Could that pick have been used on Jalen Ramsey?

Looking for more details and thoughts on this from the front office.

[Edman]

It certainly is interesting. If it is the missing piece that fizes the secondary, it could go down as a great trade. If Rudolph bombs out and this turns into a top-5 pick, it could go down as the worst trade in team history.

BIG BALLS though!

This tells us two things:

Colbert is giving one more hurrah before he leaves, or the Steelers know what they have in Rudolph, they REALLY like what they see from him, and are gearing up again. They are all in on Mason for real.

[teegre]

Or it is all part of 5 dimensional chess strategy for Lawrence in 2021.

I call it "Lay-up for Lawrence". Still workshopping that...

Abhorance for Lawrence

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This tells us two things:

Colbert is giving one more hurrah before he leaves, or the Steelers know what they have in Rudolph, they REALLY like Mason Rudolph, and are gearing up again.

I truly believe it’s the second part.

[Hawkman]

Man if this is so... not sure about this at all. No TE again next year. :chuckle:

Sorry Shoe.....but we’ll Get one in the fifth.:heh::heh:

[Shoes]

Where's that pic of Tomlin gazing at Mason when you need it? :chuckle:

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Sorry Shoe.....but we’ll Get one in the fifth.:heh::heh:


:asskick: :chuckle:

[Fire Goodell]

This tells us two things:

Colbert is giving one more hurrah before he leaves, or the Steelers know what they have in Rudolph, they REALLY like Mason, and are gearing up again. They are all in on Mason for real.

This is the only way to see it TBH. If they didn't believe in Mason, they would have said no way and went into rebuild mode. They must believe that even with Mason we're doing better than 8-8, how stupid would we look trading a top 15 pick away? I know this kid is supposed to be good, but man... I guess I'll just wait and see.

[DesertSteel]

Wow!! I love it. Absolutely love it. Go big or go home.

[teegre]

Where's that pic of Tomlin gazing at Mason when you need it? :chuckle:

I have that pic saved on my favorites (on my phone). :lol:

[BlackAndGold]

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[steelreserve]

This tells us two things:

Colbert is giving one more hurrah before he leaves, or the Steelers know what they have in Rudolph, they REALLY like what they see from him, and are gearing up again. They are all in on Mason for real.

My theory is they were fed up with that draft pick and just took whatever they could get for it. My sources said some of the players were tired of how it was always acting like a prima donna.

[86WARD]

Won’t have to sit through the draft in 2020...lol.

[Fire Goodell]

Wow!! I love it. Absolutely love it. Go big or go home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5-iJUuPWis

Well thinking about it, why draft a secondary player with high bust potential (especially with this FO drafting DB's), or make this trade with an already proven young player?

[Shoes]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27633369/sources-dolphins-ship-db-fitzpatrick-steelers

[Edman]

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Considering Ben is already done this season, this makes no sense whatsoever.

I still think the Steelers are doing this because they like Rudolph. A LOT.

[Hawkman]

I guess it’s not business as usual, in The Burgh.

[teegre]

Colbert put on his “big boy pants” today.

[tube517]

He's still on his rookie contract and Sean Davis walks next year


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[Shoes]

I guess it’s not business as usual, in The Burgh.


Art may have made a visit with his pitchfork. :chuckle:

[Mojouw]

Abhorance for Lawrence

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I truly believe it’s the second part.

We should go with yours. It's much better.

[Fire Goodell]

to be a great defense you need a cornerstone at each level of the defense.

The Steelers believe Fitzpatrick along with Watt and Bush are the cornerstones.

That's a good point. Considering that they really have shit at the safety position, this is a huge upgrade. He's playing FS, right? I hear he's good in the slot as well, but I'm hoping he's gonna be our center fielder

[Mojouw]

Can't wait to hear how he's a bust by Sunday night.

[teegre]

That's a good point. Considering that they really have shit at the safety position, this is a huge upgrade. He's playing FS, right? I hear he's good in the slot as well, but I'm hoping he's gonna be our center fielder

He is not a FS. But, Minkah is the best slot CB in the NFL.


Nelson & Haden have been shutting down their WRs, but the slot receiver has been killing us. This ELIMINATES the slot receiver.

[JayC]

there is your Mason Rudolph vote of confidence

[86WARD]

Here’s some highlights.

https://youtu.be/Xl828xrQNqU

Guy can tackle.

[86WARD]

He is not a FS. But, Minkah is the best slot CB in the NFL.


Nelson & Haden have been shutting down their WRs, but the slot receiver has been killing us. This ELIMINATES the slot receiver.

That’s a pretty high price to pay for a slot corner...no?

[Hawkman]

Can't wait to hear how he's a bust by Sunday night.

What’s the matter with you?:wink02:

[tube517]

Can't wait to hear how he's a bust by Sunday night.

Minkah Boykin? :chuckle:


Seriously, this team is getting more interesting to look forward to watch. All respect to Ben, I want to see Mason on offense and the newish look defense for the rest of the season.

[Hawkman]

That’s a pretty high price to pay for a slot corner...no?

That okay, according to most people on this site, we suck at first round draft picks,.....so what’s the downside?

[Fire Goodell]

He is not a FS. But, Minkah is the best slot CB in the NFL.


Nelson & Haden have been shutting down their WRs, but the slot receiver has been killing us. This ELIMINATES the slot receiver.

Ah I just saw him listed as a safety. I did hear that he's versatile but wanted a more defined role in Miami's defense. In any case he was a stud last year and high pedigree (11th pick overall), hope it works out for us

[cubanstogie]

Out of college, he was one of Saban’s all-time favorite players. Minkah was like an extra coach. Really.

That said... he’s not a safety. He is a slot CB.

Then again, he eliminates the opposition’s third receiver. With Nelson playing so well, teams will have a tough time beating us through the air.
Id be shocked if he doesn't play some safety. This dude can be like Polamalu, a disrupter and game changer. Dolphins had him playing 6 different positions, I cant imagine him not wanting to play safety. Versatility is one of his main strengths.

[86WARD]

That okay, according to most people on this site, we suck at first round draft picks,.....so what’s the downside?

Touché

[teegre]

Id be shocked if he doesn't play some safety. This dude can be like Polamalu, a disrupter and game changer. Dolphins had him playing 6 different positions, I cant imagine him not wanting to play safety. Versatility is one of his main strengths.

Sutton can cover.
Hilton can blitz.

Now, imagine having both of those abilities in one player. :nod:

SUMMATION:
He’ll play slot mostly, but like Sutton & Hilton, he can (and will) play some FS.

[Fire Goodell]

Id be shocked if he doesn't play some safety. This dude can be like Polamalu, a disrupter and game changer. Dolphins had him playing 6 different positions, I cant imagine him not wanting to play safety. Versatility is one of his main strengths.

With his versatility maybe he's the next Carnell Lake? Hmmmm... I'll take it. I'm not expecting any player to be polamalu, that was a once in a generation guy

[pczach]

Colbert put on his “big boy pants” today.


As Deadpool says....we fans should have worn our brown pants today. :sofunny:

[steelreserve]

That’s a pretty high price to pay for a slot corner...no?

We'd damn well better get something more than a slot corner for a possoble high R1 pick.

Like, thisncould be one of two things. Either really acknowledging that we have problems in the secondary and we're trying something drastically different, or we're, like ... giving a vote of confidence that Edmunds and Davis are A-ok, to the point where we can trade for a safety who won't even play safety, because dammit, we don't even NEED anything better.

Either a stunningly bold new plan, or we've got our heads so far up our asses that it's unbelievable.

I sure hope it's the first one, because adding the best slot corner in the league ain't fixing shit if we've still got that giant goose egg down the middle.

[86WARD]

As Deadpool says....we fans should have worn our brown pants today. :sofunny:

Lol. Deadpool is the best.

[teegre]

As Deadpool says....we fans should have worn our white pants today. :sofunny:

edited (circa DP2)

[Mojouw]

https://www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/2018/3/9/17085942/minkah-fitzpatrick-dolphins-scouting-report

Well that player, assuming Fitzpatrick can become that, is a cure to a great deal of holes on defense.

[BlackAndGold]

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[pczach]

That’s a pretty high price to pay for a slot corner...no?


What makes it so sweet is that it's his rookie deal. They're signing a high-caliber player with a bargain-basement salary structure.

[Mojouw]

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Interesting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[teegre]

We'd damn well better get something more than a slot corner for a possoble high R1 pick.

Like, thisncould be one of two things. Either really acknowledging that we have problems in the secondary and we're trying something drastically different, or we're, like ... giving a vote of confidence that Edmunds and Davis are A-ok, to the point where we can trade for a safety who won't even play safety, because dammit, we don't even NEED anything better.

Either a stunningly bold new plan, or we've got our heads so far up our asses that it's unbelievable.

I sure hope it's the first one, because adding the best slot corner in the league ain't fixing shit if we've still got that giant goose egg down the middle.





Nelson & Haden have been shutting down their WRs, but the slot receiver has been killing us. This ELIMINATES the slot receiver. Simultaneously, it also allows the safeties to drop back... and read what is in front of them (which is the strength of those two).

[st33lersguy]

Ben is done. He was playing at 20% his old self before the injury and now will have elbow surgery at 37. He's done time to move on to the future. And they surrender their 1st, potentially their highest draft pick in 20 years for a guy who a. gave up on his team and b. only wants to play slot corner.

[steelreserve]

Id be shocked if he doesn't play some safety. This dude can be like Polamalu, a disrupter and game changer. Dolphins had him playing 6 different positions, I cant imagine him not wanting to play safety. Versatility is one of his main strengths.

I think this is what we wanted Edmunds for, but he couldn't do it. Maybe same with Davis.

I've frequently said an aggressive 3-3-5 base defense could be the perfect counter to the pass-heavy bullshit ball that's played today ... the only catch being that you need a player who can do a reasonable impression of Troy Polamalu or Ronnie Lott. And those players are not just laying around everywhere. Can only keep my fingers crossed that us what they had in mind ...

[Fire Goodell]

The 4th rounder by the Dolphins could be huge, they look like they're on their way to 0-16 so that pick is a potential 3rd round value

[steelreserve]

Ben is done. He was playing at 20% his old self before the injury and now will have elbow surgery at 37. He's done time to move on to the future. And they surrender their 1st, potentially their highest draft pick in 20 years for a guy who a. gave up on his team and b. only wants to play slot corner.

It is definitely not often your team loses its franchise quarterback and the next year's first-round draft pick on the same day.

[dislocatedday]

Minkah had a great rookie year, and just based on my eye test of him (as well as the scouting reports that are out there on him), he is both a football player and a great athlete, with an extremely high ceiling.

Like others have said, I am not sure what the Steelers plans are for him. FS or CB? As it relates to the Steelers, I am very concerned about the current set of safeties as many of you are, so I keep picturing him taking the free safety spot, but that might not be what the Steelers envision. I just personally have no faith in Sean Davis at FS...........maybe the team moves Sutton to FS, and puts Minkah in the slot? I am sure they plan to have Minkah on the field most of the time once he gets up to speed.

There is a huge salary cost advantage with him for the next 3 years with those base salaries, so that never hurts.

[cubanstogie]

Ben is done. He was playing at 20% his old self before the injury and now will have elbow surgery at 37. He's done time to move on to the future. And they surrender their 1st, potentially their highest draft pick in 20 years for a guy who a. gave up on his team and b. only wants to play slot corner.
any links to him saying he only wants to play slot corner. I get he doesn't want to play 6 positions but both safety spots and slot corner isn't too much to ask. He did that at Alabama.

[st33lersguy]

Another thing is they aren't winning another Super Bowl with Tomlin and they aren't sniffing another Super Bowl with Butler so it's pointless to trade your first to go all in acquiring someone as long as those two stay.

[Rotorhead]

He is not a FS. But, Minkah is the best slot CB in the NFL.


Nelson & Haden have been shutting down their WRs, but the slot receiver has been killing us. This ELIMINATES the slot receiver.

This, our biggest hole on def is across the middle, if he can shore that up, our defense could help MR make a season of it.

[cubanstogie]

Minkah had a great rookie year, and just based on my eye test of him (as well as the scouting reports that are out there on him), he is both a football player and a great athlete, with an extremely high ceiling.

Like others have said, I am not sure what the Steelers plans are for him. FS or CB? As it relates to the Steelers, I am very concerned about the current set of safeties as many of you are, so I keep picturing him taking the free safety spot, but that might not be what the Steelers envision. I just personally have no faith in Sean Davis at FS...........maybe the team moves Sutton to FS, and puts Minkah in the slot? I am sure they plan to have Minkah on the field most of the time once he gets up to speed.

There is a huge salary cost advantage with him for the next 3 years with those base salaries, so that never hurts.
I wouldn't even dare guess what their plan is either but after watching Davis shit the bed all game playing 25 yards deep on 3rd 15 and not anticipating coming up to make a stop until receiver gets 17 yards and a first down it was my though he's playing FS but that would be using common sense. Im sure he could help in multiple positions, hopefully they use him correctly. With that said I love the trade. The fact we get a 4th for 5th lessons the blow of losing a first. Like someone else mentioned Miami is picking in top 5 so its like late 3rd round value.

[Shoes]

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and we will throw Moncrief in for free.

[BlackAndGold]

Fitzpatrick can play slot CB and as a center fielder. I wouldn't place him as a one position player. He is a talented player.

[86WARD]

So early reports are that Minkah will play Free Safety due to the fact that Davis suffered a torn labrum surging the Seattle game.

[Rotorhead]

Also, this is basically an answer to AB, Gordon and Edelman.

[BlackAndGold]

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[Mojouw]

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I think he played his entire rookie year with the same injury.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[86WARD]

8 first round picks on defense now?

Haden, Minkah, Cam, Watt, Bush, Barron, Edmunds and the best one...Dupree!

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

This is a good move by Colbert to give the D a better chance to help out the young QB Rudolph.

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I wouldn't even dare guess what their plan is either but after watching Davis shit the bed all game playing 25 yards deep on 3rd 15 and not anticipating coming up to make a stop until receiver gets 17 yards and a first down it was my though he's playing FS but that would be using common sense. Im sure he could help in multiple positions, hopefully they use him correctly. With that said I love the trade. The fact we get a 4th for 5th lessons the blow of losing a first. Like someone else mentioned Miami is picking in top 5 so its like late 3rd round value. Miami is picking 1 every round next year and a given. So yes their 4th is basically a 3rd.

[Edman]

Even after the fact, Nothing about this makes sense. At all.

I seriously cannot fathom making a move like this unless the Steelers organization and coaching staff really like what they see in Rudolph. They would never have done this with Landry or Dobbs regardless of Ben's health. They never even did this when Ben was healthy and had the B's. Giving up a First Round draft pick the very next draft.

Good on stones. Nothing on anything else.

[cubanstogie]

Nothing about this makes sense. At all.

I seriously cannot fathom making a move like this unless the Steelers organization and coaching staff really like what they see in Rudolph. They would never have done this with Landry or Dobbs regardless of Ben's health. They never even did this when Ben was healthy.

Good on stones. Nothing on anything else.
Makes sense to me. D has gaping holes up middle, they think he shores it up.

[Steeler-in-west]

Good move. Butler has got a proven heady player, hopefully he...doesn’t screw it up

[Craic]

I do not like giving up a first round, especially when we'll probably have a higher first round pick then we have had in several years. Honestly, this looks like a desperate move. I really do hope I'm wrong.

[Method28]

I do not like giving up a first round, especially when we'll probably have a higher first round pick then we have had in several years. Honestly, this looks like a desperate move. I really do hope I'm wrong.Kinda feeling like this as well. I also didnt see much out of Fitzpatrick to warrant trading a potential high first round pick. I also get that playing for the Dolphins doesn't really put you in the best situations lol

I dont know, just kinda feels like they're grabbing at straws

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Fire Goodell]

From a salary cap standpoint this might be a genius move.

Sean Davis is gone next year, and re-signing him costs more than Fitz's contract, at a much lower level of performance. If we didn't resign Davis, we have a hole at FS. Hell, we probably have a hole right now by the way he's playing. The only way this is a loss is if we do badly enough to pick in the top 10, but I think with the talent still on this team, they should at least go 7-9 or 8-8

[BlackAndGold]

If Fitzpatrick becomes a cornerstone the draft pick is irrelevant.

Safety was going to be a top "need" for this team next season, they just took care of that this season. MF is basically your 2020 first round safety we get a year early.


Many(the media) are judging this move because they believe the Steelers need to draft a QB. Spoiler alert, Ben said he was returning and they will not give up on Rudolph after one season. It's the wrong way to look at this if you think they were drafting a QB.

[BlackAndGold]

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[BlackAndGold]

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[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

After think about this trade. This is a BB Patriot type move we are always envy of and say why can't our front office have the balls and be that smart ? Kudos to Colbert and all getting this done. We get to enjoy our 2020 pick now and can help the team this year. Was a need and can't beat the cap hit the next few years. Well done!!!!!

[RunNGun]

Absolutely hate this trade.

[Steeldude]

Makes sense to me. D has gaping holes up middle, they think he shores it up.

Without coaching it will be futile. The defense will have their usual lapses.

[j-d-s]

I like the trade. We're going all in on Rudolph. With a good defense he doesn't have to score on every drive, we stay in games and win.

[stillers4me]

Wow! I went to bed early and woke up to this!!!!!!!!

Last night, my biggest concern was that our defense wasn't going to be much help to a young QB. Ben and AB, JuJu and Conner were capable of scoring 30-40 points to win games to make up for our lousy secondary........but now we were likely to lose games because the defense would allow too many points on the board.

Russ and I had this same conversation about this trade yesterday........totally willing to give up a 1st round pick for KNOWN talent instead of rolling the dice on an unknown. And he is still on his rookie contract.......win win!!! Reports hat he is only going to count a little over 5 million of cap space for the next 2 years

Looks like we gave up a 5th as well...but don't we have an extra 5th from the Dobbs trade? Winning again!

I feel so bad for Ben........he has to be dying knowing he won't be out there this season but this is going to help Rudolph so much.

If reports are true...Fitzpatrick is not only a great player but good guy, as well.

Sorry Debbie Downers.......Pittsburgh got a steal on this one! Especially if we make the playoffs and DON"T have a high draft pick...because that's what Miami is counting on. They may have just traded one of their best players for a lower round 1!

[stillers4me]

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[stillers4me]

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[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

It's a no brainer to me regardless after news Ben is done this season. Good move and will help out this season and future. Again this was a great move by Colbert and co.

[stillers4me]

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[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Minkah is probably piss today he got traded to another 0-2 team with a uncertainty at QB.

[EzraTank]

I don’t know...if he just wants to be a nickel back was it really worth the first round pick? Could that pick have been used on Jalen Ramsey?

Looking for more details and thoughts on this from the front office.

I was thinking the same thing but my biggest fear with Ramsey is he's another LeVeon/AB type of douche bag.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

I was thinking the same thing but my biggest fear with Ramsey is he's another LeVeon/AB type of douche bag. You nailed it and bet the Steelers wanted no part of Ramsey cause of his attitude and the fact Minkah contract is very cap friendly as well.

[86WARD]

I was thinking the same thing but my biggest fear with Ramsey is he's another LeVeon/AB type of douche bag.

Yeah...it’s understandable if they just kinda want to shy away from douchebags altogether...

[EzraTank]

Yeah...it’s understandable if they just kinda want to shy away from douchebags altogether...

I'm hoping it works out. After watching what Saban said about this kids I'm willing to give it a try.

But we could trade for a team of young Joe Greene, Lambert, Swann, Stallworth, Franco, Troy, Woodson and until this coaching staff is gone NONE of them would look like Hall of Famers.

[teegre]

Btw: Under the current CBA, Minkah can’t renegotiate until after the 2021 season. Period. He’s an extremely cheap talent for the next two seasons.

This could be the death toll for Sean Davis.

Davis = more expensive
Davis = not as good

[lipps83]

Won't mean a thing until Butler is gone.

8 1st rounders on defense, and it still blows.

The problem hasn't been the players for a long time.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

I'm hoping it works out. After watching what Saban said about this kids I'm willing to give it a try.

But we could trade for a team of young Joe Greene, Lambert, Swann, Stallworth, Franco, Troy, Woodson and until this coaching staff is gone NONE of them would look like Hall of Famers. As much as I don't like Butler, I'm sorry talent will eventually show up regardless of scheme. Artie Burns and Bud Dupree are not talent. Also have my doubts about Edmunds.

[EzraTank]

As much as I don't like Butler, I'm sorry talent will eventually show up regardless of scheme. Artie Burns and Bud Dupree are not talent.

I see your point, but I'll argue the opposite. Great coaches make mediocre talent better especially when they have other great talent around them. Look at the garbage Belichick has worked with over the years on the Patriots defense. He takes average guys and makes them good enough to win.

[tube517]

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[AtlantaDan]

Btw: Under the current CBA, Minkah can’t renegotiate until after the 2021 season. Period. He’s an extremely cheap talent for the next two seasons.

This could be the death toll for Sean Davis.

Davis = more expensive
Davis = not as good

Agreed - the Dulac article in the P-G says Davis (represented by Rosenhaus) is gone

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2019/09/16/minkah-fitzpatrick-steelers-trade-first-round-pick-2020-dolphins/stories/201909160177

I assumed that was true even before this trade

[Mojouw]

They were almost certainly drafting a safety in the first round anyways. Even if they lose every single game the rest of the season, they were not drafting a QB in the first round.

So what is the complaint on the draft pick? They just guaranteed they got a good piece for the secondary for a first round pick. That was going to be what they took a shot with for their first rounder anyways.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

I see your point, but I'll argue the opposite. Great coaches make mediocre talent better especially when they have other great talent around them. Look at the garbage Belichick has worked with over the years on the Patriots defense. He takes average guys and makes them good enough to win. Agree BB could coach them up more but my point is they was bad draft picks and only can polish a turd so much.

- - - Updated - - -


They were almost certainly drafting a safety in the first round anyways. Even if they lose every single game the rest of the season, they were not drafting a QB in the first round.

So what is the complaint on the draft pick? They just guaranteed they got a good piece for the secondary for a first round pick. That was going to be what they took a shot with for their first rounder anyways. I love the trade.

[Born2Steel]

8 first round picks on defense now?

Haden, Minkah, Cam, Watt, Bush, Barron, Edmunds and the best one...Dupree!

Don’t forget about Tyson Alualu.

[dislocatedday]

If Fitzpatrick becomes a cornerstone the draft pick is irrelevant.

Safety was going to be a top "need" for this team next season, they just took care of that this season. MF is basically your 2020 first round safety we get a year early.


Many(the media) are judging this move because they believe the Steelers need to draft a QB. Spoiler alert, Ben said he was returning and they will not give up on Rudolph after one season. It's the wrong way to look at this if you think they were drafting a QB.

Ding Ding Ding....Winner Winner!

You got it right with this post IMO. Sean Davis is a FA after this year, and I personally don't think he warrants retaining at a large salary. The things I am reading now indicate Minkah wants to play FS, and wanted to play that position mostly with the Dolphins, but they kept putting him in the box under the new coaching staff...........which is why he was requesting a trade.

People act like out QB breadboard is bare. Ben stated he is coming back, and I believe his intentions, so if Mason does not pan out then we have Ben for 2 more years. Many people seem to think it was a foregone conclusion we would be drafting QB next year, but I don't see that as need #1 at all. FS was definitely going to be a major need though.

[vasteeler]

So, was it a good trade or a bad trade. I certainly can't tell from this thread... Lol

[Dwinsgames]

Ok. I lied. I'mma just gonna go ahead and be overly excited. So....I really like this draft site...and here is their write-up of Fitzpatrick: https://www.thehuddlereport.com/archive/2018profiles/Minkah.Fitzpatrick.htm

Reading that, I have visions of a certain shampoo pitchman who kinda made this whole thing work a few years back.

To be clear, I am not putting them on the same level, just saying that a flexible chess piece on the back-end may fix a ton of what ails this team...

So who do they cut? Who gets sent to the bench and how soon? So exciting - even if he bombs it is exciting.

except that is what Minkah was envisioned to be like , however he has not played anything like that ... his safety play has been ok at best ...

His Nickle corner play has been off the charts ....

I am completely baffled by this trade and believe they gave up way to much to obtain a guy who has not proved to be able to play the S position at a high level so essentially they spent a next years 1st on a slot corner ...

I am fine with that if we are now playing a Nickle base and that slot guy is a starter ...

[86WARD]

except that is what Minkah was envisioned to be like , however he has not played anything like that ... his safety play has been ok at best ...

His Nickle corner play has been off the charts ....

I am completely baffled by this trade and believe they gave up way to much to obtain a guy who has not proved to be able to play the S position at a high level so essentially they spent a next years 1st on a slot corner ...

I am fine with that if we are now playing a Nickle base and that slot guy is a starter ...

You’re going to have to put your best players on the field...so if they play nickel base and Fitzpatrick is the nickel guy...who is playing safety? Kelly? Then who else are you taking off the field? Hargrave?

[Dwinsgames]

You’re going to have to put your best players on the field...so if they play nickel base and Fitzpatrick is the nickel guy...who is playing safety? Kelly? Then who else are you taking off the field? Hargrave?


it can be an issue ... maybe they play a 3-3-5 base ????

with a rotation of Bush and Barron ( and VW comes off )

that gives us the most potential team speed

[Mojouw]

There is just a bit of unknown on all this. Maybe Davis goes to IR? Maybe he plays nicked up all year and returns on a one year prove it deal. Who knows.

But if Fitzpatrick was in this draft class, where would the Steelers rank him? Pretty high. So...

[Steeler-in-west]

I see your point, but I'll argue the opposite. Great coaches make mediocre talent better especially when they have other great talent around them. Look at the garbage Belichick has worked with over the years on the Patriots defense. He takes average guys and makes them good enough to win.

This.

Coaching does make a big difference; Sean McVay transforming the Rams into a winner in his first year.

[86WARD]

it can be an issue ... maybe they play a 3-3-5 base ????

with a rotation of Bush and Barron ( and VW comes off )

that gives us the most potential team speed

So let’s see...

Heyward, Tuitt, Hargrave, Barron, Bush, Hilton, Fitzpatrick, Edmunds, Haden, Watt and Nelson are probably the best 11 - That by default gives you a 3-3-5.

[EzraTank]

We also are forgetting that this league is now a passing first league. The days of lining up a huge line with two TE's and pounding the ball are over so essentially you do not need two giant safeties you can creep up to the line to stop Emmitt Smith.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

So, was it a good trade or a bad trade. I certainly can't tell from this thread... Lol

:toofunny: I know, I think some folks are only happy when they have something bad to say.

-Steelers are lousy at drafting DB's, they should just get one in Free Agency.
-Steelers don't get any INT's or turnovers from their DB's
-Sean Davis is clueless and needs to be replaced

Then, trade for Fitzpatrick, who was the #11 pick and had 2 INT his rookie season.

-Steelers didn't need another secondary player
-Steelers might be drafting better than #11 this season
-Minkah is more of a slot corner and they already have too many of those.
-Should have gotten Ramsey, (he would fit in nicely as a locker room presence)

[Method28]

I'm not so sure if some dont like the trade because they think the Steelers needed to draft a QB...I think some of us dont like it because we dont think Fitz has shown he's worthy of a first rounder, let alone a potential top half of the draft first rounder

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[steel striker]

I like the trade for Fitz and, after watching the defense defend the pass the first two games the FO had to do something.

[86WARD]

You won’t get a player as good and as developed as Fitzpatrick in the 2020 draft.

[DesertSteel]

How soon does MF play??? Is Sunday too soon?

[Squeegee Thompson]

Minkah is probably piss today he got traded to another 0-2 team with a uncertainty at QB.

If you think anybody is going to equate an 0-2 Steelers team with stable ownership and veteran leadership in the locker room with an 0-2 and openly-tanking-to-stockpile-draft-picks Dolphins team that damn well may go 0-16 this year, then you're insane.

Fitzpatrick went from a perennial laughing stock of a franchise that hasn't won a playoff game in nearly 20 years, to a team that's in the Super Bowl mix nearly every year. He's gotta be walking on Cloud 9 this morning.

[cubanstogie]

Looks like starting FS, Davis on IR.

[steelreserve]

Looks like starting FS, Davis on IR.

Well, things certainly are proceeding at a frenzied pace around here. I don't think I've ever seen so many big developments in a two-day period before.

[86WARD]

Was Davis designated to return?

[Squeegee Thompson]

How soon does MF play??? Is Sunday too soon?

Apparently not. Tomlin said he's a go on Sunday:

1173992205314416640

Anything other than standing around watching the TE streak by you will be considered an upgrade ...

[cubanstogie]

Well, things certainly are proceeding at a frenzied pace around here. I don't think I've ever seen so many big developments in a two-day period before.
Yep I feel like a manic deppressant, pretty bummed after Ben went down but after seeing Rudolph out perform him and take command of offense and getting Minkah to replace Davis I am on cloud 9. Lets see if he can take care of Kittle and stop teams from gashing us up the middle, and Rudolph can progress with more reps in practice. I don't want to get too enthusiastic but Steelers aren't packing it in, and with all division games remaining you never know.

[steelreserve]

Was Davis designated to return?

They don't have that anymore. Anyone on IR can come back after the required number of weeks; you don't have to designate them. (You still are only allowed one or two per year, but you don't have to decide right up front.)

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Yep I feel like a manic deppressant, pretty bummed after Ben went down but after seeing Rudolph out perform him and take command of offense and getting Minkah to replace Davis I am on cloud 9. Lets see if he can take care of Kittle and stop teams from gashing us up the middle, and Rudolph can progress with more reps in practice. I don't want to get too enthusiastic but Steelers aren't packing it in, and with all division games remaining you never know.

If nothing else, they have certainly done a lot to keep the season interesting for at least the next few weeks!

[Mojouw]

They don't have that anymore. Anyone on IR can come back after the required number of weeks; you don't have to designate them. (You still are only allowed one or two per year, but you don't have to decide right up front.)

So the return issue could be determined later based on how Davis responds to treatment/surgery?

Also, this is the exact kinda scenario that drives guys back to their current teams. Ain't nobody paying Davis big contract $$$ based on his current tape.

[steelreserve]

So the return issue could be determined later based on how Davis responds to treatment/surgery?

Also, this is the exact kinda scenario that drives guys back to their current teams. Ain't nobody paying Davis big contract $$$ based on his current tape.

Yeah, I think they changed it a couple years ago to exactly what you said.

If you think about it, the old way made no sense - you basically had to guess within a couple of days how serious an injury would be, and hope you got it right (and if you did designate your one player to return, that another guy didn't get hurt after him).

While I could be convinced to welcome Davis back as a depth player on a reasonable contract if you REALLY twisted my arm, it would also be a shrug if he left. At this point, it seems like we know what we have, which is a guy with some talent, who is still always going to be a liability to some extent because of mental lapses. Kind of reminds me of Anthony Smith for slightly different reasons. I wish he'd turn the corner, but similar to Dupree, I feel like we need to be past the wishing part and have a different plan, and if he ever does figure it out, then that's nice bonus.

[Fire Goodell]

Hopefully our new safety of the future

[Born2Steel]

If Fitz came here to upgrade the FS position then I love this move. If we can still use him in Nickel with a rotation at FS/Slot CB/SS with Sutton/Hilton/Edmunds then I really love it.

[AtlantaDan]

If nothing else, they have certainly done a lot to keep the season interesting for at least the next few weeks!

Agreed - rather than sit around figuring the season is screwed let's plan for the draft and go get 'em next year Colbert was proactive to get help now while also hopefully building for the seasons ahead. If he is planning to say goodbye after his contract runs out after this season Colbert is going out with guns blazing.

[Blue Marvel]

Fitzpatrick IS the 2020 1st rd pick.

[Mojouw]

Yeah, I think they changed it a couple years ago to exactly what you said.

If you think about it, the old way made no sense - you basically had to guess within a couple of days how serious an injury would be, and hope you got it right (and if you did designate your one player to return, that another guy didn't get hurt after him).

While I could be convinced to welcome Davis back as a depth player on a reasonable contract if you REALLY twisted my arm, it would also be a shrug if he left. At this point, it seems like we know what we have, which is a guy with some talent, who is still always going to be a liability to some extent because of mental lapses. Kind of reminds me of Anthony Smith for slightly different reasons. I wish he'd turn the corner, but similar to Dupree, I feel like we need to be past the wishing part and have a different plan, and if he ever does figure it out, then that's nice bonus.

Agreed. What I am thinking is that Davis returns on a reasonable 1-2 year deal and plays the Kam Kelly role in the defense. Kelly cycles down and pushes Dangerfield off the roster.

Fitzpatrick/Edmunds/Davis/Kelly would be the best safety grouping this team has had in a long time.

What would be AMAZING is if Layne would be able to actually play outside CB at a credible level and push Haden to FS. Minkah plays SS. Edmunds takes Barron's job next Bush. And Davis plays as a swiss army knife DB in a "big nickel" package. With Hilton and Sutton getting run as the slot CB and dime defenders. But since most of these mental midgets can barely handle the job they are supposed to be good at, switching that many roles isn't going to happen.

[JnK]

So MF will be playing Sunday along with a confident Mason Rudolph.... if the Steelers pull off a win on the west coast this weekend this place is going to go ape shit. I'm still really optimistic about this season. That may make me a homer but so be it. I remember the day Ben took over for Tommy, not because he was deemed 'ready' but because he HAD to. I'm not saying MR is going to pull off a 13-1 season but wouldn't it be great if he even comes close to that! :)

[tube517]

So MF will be playing Sunday along with a confident Mason Rudolph.... if the Steelers pull off a win on the west coast this weekend this place is going to go ape shit. I'm still really optimistic about this season. That may make me a homer but so be it. I remember the day Ben took over for Tommy, not because he was deemed 'ready' but because he HAD to. I'm not saying MR is going to pull off a 13-1 season but wouldn't it be great if he even comes close to that! :)

Yeah but if we do win someone will complain about something. :chuckle:

[Shoes]

https://www.steelers.com/video/tomlin-gives-updates-on-recent-moves

[Craic]

If Fitzpatrick becomes a cornerstone the draft pick is irrelevant.

Safety was going to be a top "need" for this team next season, they just took care of that this season. MF is basically your 2020 first round safety we get a year early.


Many(the media) are judging this move because they believe the Steelers need to draft a QB. Spoiler alert, Ben said he was returning and they will not give up on Rudolph after one season. It's the wrong way to look at this if you think they were drafting a QB.
PRO-TIP --> Ben can say anything he wants. His body will dictate reality to him. If Rudolph crashes and burns or if his lack of arm strength becomes an issue and he starts getting picked left right and center, then we've just thrown away our best bet for the future because QB is the most important position in today's NFL.

[Shoes]

PRO-TIP --> Ben can say anything he wants. His body will dictate reality to him. If Rudolph crashes and burns or if his lack of arm strength becomes an issue and he starts getting picked left right and center, then we've just thrown away our best bet for the future because QB is the most important position in today's NFL.

I'm not sure why you think Mason has a lack arm strength. Everything I've read says the opposite.

[86WARD]

So MF will be playing Sunday along with a confident Mason Rudolph.... if the Steelers pull off a win on the west coast this weekend this place is going to go ape shit. I'm still really optimistic about this season. That may make me a homer but so be it. I remember the day Ben took over for Tommy, not because he was deemed 'ready' but because he HAD to. I'm not saying MR is going to pull off a 13-1 season but wouldn't it be great if he even comes close to that! :)

They’ll win. Very confident. It’s what this team does. Pulls you to sleep, faces adversity and pulls out a win. Then they’ll lose to the Bengals ar home or something stupid like that

[86WARD]

PRO-TIP --> Ben can say anything he wants. His body will dictate reality to him. If Rudolph crashes and burns or if his lack of arm strength becomes an issue and he starts getting picked left right and center, then we've just thrown away our best bet for the future because QB is the most important position in today's NFL.

Don’t remember him having a weak arm during training camp...also wasn’t looking for it...

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I'm not sure why you think Mason has a lack arm strength. Everything I've read says the opposite.

True. Roethlisberger, WR Marcus Tucker both commented that Rudolph has a big arm in 2018 training camp. Jim Wexell commented that he has the next strongest arm to Ben on the Steelers roster last season, so a stronger arm than Dobbs or Jones.

Still, its not Josh Allen, Ben, Brett Favre like arm strength. Some website said Rudolph has a throw velocity of 52 mph, which is the same as Drew Brees and faster than Lamar Jackson and Deshaun Watson who have velocity of 49 mph. it looks good enough to me and if the worst thing we can say is he throws the ball as hard as Drew Brees does, then I'm not ready to push the panic button.

[Squeegee Thompson]

True. Roethlisberger, WR Marcus Tucker both commented that Rudolph has a big arm in 2018 training camp. Jim Wexell commented that he has the next strongest arm to Ben on the Steelers roster last season, so a stronger arm than Dobbs or Jones.

Still, its not Josh Allen, Ben, Brett Favre like arm strength. Some website said Rudolph has a throw velocity of 52 mph, which is the same as Drew Brees and faster than Lamar Jackson and Deshaun Watson who have velocity of 49 mph. it looks good enough to me and if the worst thing we can say is he throws the ball as hard as Drew Brees does, then I'm not ready to push the panic button.

Josh Allen can throw a football through a wall. He just has no idea which wall it's gonna end up going through.

[BlackAndGold]

PRO-TIP --> Ben can say anything he wants. His body will dictate reality to him. If Rudolph crashes and burns or if his lack of arm strength becomes an issue and he starts getting picked left right and center, then we've just thrown away our best bet for the future because QB is the most important position in today's NFL.

Arm strength is not an issue for Rudolph. No it's not as good as Ben's during his prime but that won't be the reason he fails if he does so. Accuracy/ball placement is what matters when it comes to arm talent and those things were Rudolph's strengths coming out of OK St. He showed those things off during the pre season also.

[stillers4me]

1174069374031998978

[tube517]

1174069374031998978

That was a strike year w/scrubs lol

[RunNGun]

I think some of you are confused as to what this franchise's goal is. It's not to make the playoffs...it's to win super bowls. If anyone thinks that Ben can still lead this team to a super bowl...even after sitting out a year..let alone this year...you are delusional. The very best this team was going to do this year was 10-6, and a 1st or 2nd round exit in the playoffs. Ben isn't beating Brady and he isn't beating Mahomes. It is time to move on.

In steps Rudolph. The trade makes me believe the front office has a lot of confidence in Rudolph and that he is, in fact, our QB of the future...but I have my doubts as well...this seems to be Mike Tomlin trying to save his ass from getting canned. It's a desperate move that could wind up very costly for the future...Say Rudolph completely shits the bed and we go 6-10 or worse with what would have been a top 5 pick to help speed up the rebuilding process.

Next season, Big Ben decides to retire because he doesn't want to go through a coaching change. Tomlin doesn't get an extension...Now we're left with an unproven QB with a bunch of unproven WRs, as well an aging Oline.

I hate this trade and here's why...
1.) It puts the team in a scenario to get worse before it gets better
2.) Mike Tomlin made a desperate move to save his job.

[86WARD]

Take a guaranteed need with guaranteed talent with a first round pick...or spend a first round pick on a top tier QB prospect...like Paxton Lynch...lol.

Not really a debate imo...

[RunNGun]

Take a guaranteed need with guaranteed talent with a first round pick...or spend a first round pick on a top tier QB prospect...like Paxton Lynch...lol.

Not really a debate imo...

Not really a debate?? QB is undoubtedly the most important position on the football field. You just gonna act like Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Pat Mahomes, and Ben Roethlisberger weren't all drafted in the 1st round? I assume you believe Ben can still lead this team to a super bowl, or you're all in on Rudolph after a half of football. Nowadays, super bowls aren't won with mediocre QBs.

[86WARD]

Not really a debate?? QB is undoubtedly the most important position on the football field. You just gonna act like Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Pat Mahomes, and Ben Roethlisberger weren't all drafted in the 1st round? I assume you believe Ben can still lead this team to a super bowl, or you're all in on Rudolph after a half of football. Nowadays, super bowls aren't won with mediocre QBs.

I mean we could sit here and list all the QBs taken in the first round that didn’t work out...lol. None of those picks are guaranteed. Fitzpatrick is a known commodity.

Nick Foles is a mediocre QB who won a Super Bowl.

[RunNGun]

I mean we could sit here and list all the QBs taken in the first round that didn’t work out...lol. None of those picks are guaranteed. Fitzpatrick is a known commodity.

Nick Foles is a mediocre QB who won a Super Bowl.

You've got me with Foles...Here's the question...Is Minkah Fitzpatrick worth possibly drafting a franchise QB? And is he the next Troy or Ed Reed? For me, it's a hard no, but I also see this season as a wash. Between 7-9 and 5-11.

[cubanstogie]

I think some of you are confused as to what this franchise's goal is. It's not to make the playoffs...it's to win super bowls. If anyone thinks that Ben can still lead this team to a super bowl...even after sitting out a year..let alone this year...you are delusional. The very best this team was going to do this year was 10-6, and a 1st or 2nd round exit in the playoffs. Ben isn't beating Brady and he isn't beating Mahomes. It is time to move on.

In steps Rudolph. The trade makes me believe the front office has a lot of confidence in Rudolph and that he is, in fact, our QB of the future...but I have my doubts as well...this seems to be Mike Tomlin trying to save his ass from getting canned. It's a desperate move that could wind up very costly for the future...Say Rudolph completely shits the bed and we go 6-10 or worse with what would have been a top 5 pick to help speed up the rebuilding process.

Next season, Big Ben decides to retire because he doesn't want to go through a coaching change. Tomlin doesn't get an extension...Now we're left with an unproven QB with a bunch of unproven WRs, as well an aging Oline.

I hate this trade and here's why...
1.) It puts the team in a scenario to get worse before it gets better
2.) Mike Tomlin made a desperate move to save his job.
How does this trade make them worse before better? Have you seen the D. That’s what lost the first 2 games. Miami is getting the only QB in draft instantly better than Rudolph, and it’s not even a given. I said a year and a half ago Rudolph next best in draft behind Darnold, he can be as good or better than mayfield, Allen , Rosen for sure and maybe lamar if he comes back to earth. It’s a crapshoot for sure drafting QB’s, but what is for sure is Minkah better than any safety and possibly slot CB in future than anyone we have.we are much better than 2 days ago

[RunNGun]

How does this trade make them worse before better? Have you seen the D. That’s what lost the first 2 games. Miami is getting the only QB in draft instantly better than Rudolph, and it’s not even a given. I said a year and a half ago Rudolph next best in draft behind Darnold, he can be as good or better than mayfield, Allen , Rosen for sure and maybe lamar if he comes back to earth. It’s a crapshoot for sure drafting QB’s, but what is for sure is Minkah better than any safety and possibly slot CB in future than anyone we have.we are much better than 2 days ago

If Mason Rudolph isn't the answer then it lengthens the rebuilding process. If he is the answer then Tomlin and Colbert are geniuses with this trade. I really see it as a desperation move though.

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The D played well enough to win that game. The offense was non existent in the 1st half

[Mojouw]

Say the rest of the season goes sideways. Mason is terrible. Steelers likely still manage to eek out a win or two more than the Phins. So they’d get Tua and Steelers get the consolation prize.

That’s assuming they’d even go QB. Unless Ben has all the nerve damage and hangs it up, he gets 2020 and likely 2021 to see if he can recapture previous glory.

Anyone think Davis or Edmunds is the answer at safety? Probably not. So they were staring down the barrel of going FS in 2020 round one.

Or you can just go get a guy you are already in love with. At the most likely 2020 round one draft position.

Why are some determined to twist all this to fit a doom and gloom narrative?

I honestly think the team will be lucky to win 5-6 games this year. But I can’t see a scenario where that leads to a 2020 QB pick unless they decided Bens arm needed amputated.

[cubanstogie]

If Mason Rudolph isn't the answer then it lengthens the rebuilding process. If he is the answer then Tomlin and Colbert are geniuses with this trade. I really see it as a desperation move though.

- - - Updated - - -

The D played well enough to win that game. The offense was non existent in the 1st half
The offense was non existent in first half, yet they had 3 point lead. The second half D was awful,IMO thats where game was lost. I just don't see it as desperation getting a top 10 pick or whatever he was for a first round pick. Not to mention we move up with 4th and give them a 5th. A lot of people shit on Tomlin and Colbert but the need for secondary help wherever MP plays has been addressed. I give them props for that.Will it work out? Will Rudolph be the QB of future who knows, but atleast they haven't folded like Dolphins have. They are the team that is getting worse before better. Sometimes thats the way it has to be. Thats how Browns got all their talent by picking first every frigging year. I don't see Steelers taking that route. IF Im a Dolphins fan Im going fishing, golfing or to the beach. Steelers fans still have something to be excited about, hopefully the excitement will last the whole season and not just a couple of weeks.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

. The second half D was awful,IMO thats where game was lost. .

Agreed, didn't the D give up 3 TD's in the last 4 Seattle possessions? That was terrible.

[Mojouw]

Agreed, didn't the D give up 3 TD's in the last 4 Seattle possessions? That was terrible.

It was indeed. Defense still bleeds between the numbers and the offense struggles to make plays in the same area of the field. It’s a simple recipe for losing games.

[cubanstogie]

Say the rest of the season goes sideways. Mason is terrible. Steelers likely still manage to eek out a win or two more than the Phins. So they’d get Tua and Steelers get the consolation prize.

That’s assuming they’d even go QB. Unless Ben has all the nerve damage and hangs it up, he gets 2020 and likely 2021 to see if he can recapture previous glory.

Anyone think Davis or Edmunds is the answer at safety? Probably not. So they were staring down the barrel of going FS in 2020 round one.

Or you can just go get a guy you are already in love with. At the most likely 2020 round one draft position.

Why are some determined to twist all this to fit a doom and gloom narrative?

I honestly think the team will be lucky to win 5-6 games this year. But I can’t see a scenario where that leads to a 2020 QB pick unless they decided Bens arm needed amputated.Its probably a little early to tell with Edmunds but I agree probably not the answer, Davis definitely not. You look at a guy like Derwin James and he single handedly turned a game or two around last year. I only watched Chargers 3-4 times and saw he was a stud. don't see that with our Safeties. Can they get better, maybe under Belicheck. Thats why I like the trade. MP has a chance to be a game changer, at worst he is still better than what we have. We all have been waiting for Dupree and others to break out. It never happens. They are who they are. TJ stud from get go, Hargrave and Hayward as well. Lets face it Chickollo isn't getting better Artie probably isn't either. Im not saying cut Davis or Edmunds but if you can improve make the move.

- - - Updated - - -


Say the rest of the season goes sideways. Mason is terrible. Steelers likely still manage to eek out a win or two more than the Phins. So they’d get Tua and Steelers get the consolation prize.

That’s assuming they’d even go QB. Unless Ben has all the nerve damage and hangs it up, he gets 2020 and likely 2021 to see if he can recapture previous glory.

Anyone think Davis or Edmunds is the answer at safety? Probably not. So they were staring down the barrel of going FS in 2020 round one.

Or you can just go get a guy you are already in love with. At the most likely 2020 round one draft position.

Why are some determined to twist all this to fit a doom and gloom narrative?

I honestly think the team will be lucky to win 5-6 games this year. But I can’t see a scenario where that leads to a 2020 QB pick unless they decided Bens arm needed amputated.Its probably a little early to tell with Edmunds but I agree probably not the answer, Davis definitely not. You look at a guy like Derwin James and he single handedly turned a game or two around last year. I only watched Chargers 3-4 times and saw he was a stud. don't see that with our Safeties. Can they get better, maybe under Belicheck. Thats why I like the trade. MP has a chance to be a game changer, at worst he is still better than what we have. We all have been waiting for Dupree and others to break out. It never happens. They are who they are. TJ stud from get go, Hargrave and Hayward as well. Lets face it Chickollo isn't getting better Artie probably isn't either. Im not saying cut Davis or Edmunds but if you can improve make the move.

[Mojouw]

Its probably a little early to tell with Edmunds but I agree probably not the answer, Davis definitely not. You look at a guy like Derwin James and he single handedly turned a game or two around last year. I only watched Chargers 3-4 times and saw he was a stud. don't see that with our Safeties. Can they get better, maybe under Belicheck. Thats why I like the trade. MP has a chance to be a game changer, at worst he is still better than what we have. We all have been waiting for Dupree and others to break out. It never happens. They are who they are. TJ stud from get go, Hargrave and Hayward as well. Lets face it Chickollo isn't getting better Artie probably isn't either. Im not saying cut Davis or Edmunds but if you can improve make the move.

- - - Updated - - -

Its probably a little early to tell with Edmunds but I agree probably not the answer, Davis definitely not. You look at a guy like Derwin James and he single handedly turned a game or two around last year. I only watched Chargers 3-4 times and saw he was a stud. don't see that with our Safeties. Can they get better, maybe under Belicheck. Thats why I like the trade. MP has a chance to be a game changer, at worst he is still better than what we have. We all have been waiting for Dupree and others to break out. It never happens. They are who they are. TJ stud from get go, Hargrave and Hayward as well. Lets face it Chickollo isn't getting better Artie probably isn't either. Im not saying cut Davis or Edmunds but if you can improve make the move.

Agreed. Sometimes decisions are linked other times it’s in a vacuum. I suspect they had MF near the top of their board. He’s now available for a doable price. Make the move.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

It was indeed. Defense still bleeds between the numbers and the offense struggles to make plays in the same area of the field. It’s a simple recipe for losing games.

OK, so how does turnover differential figure into that recipe? I thought that if you win the turnover differential, that you win games.

[86WARD]

You've got me with Foles...Here's the question...Is Minkah Fitzpatrick worth possibly drafting a franchise QB? And is he the next Troy or Ed Reed? For me, it's a hard no, but I also see this season as a wash. Between 7-9 and 5-11.

So you want to draft (or take a gamble on) a “franchise QB” that you don’t really know how good they will be vs. the known commodity of Fitzpatrick. Granted Fitzpatrick could fail miserably here in Pittsburgh...but there’s less of a gamble on Fitzpatrick then a QB coming out of college. I’ll answer you this way...would I rather have Fitzpatrick than Kyler Murray or Johnny Manziel? Yes. Yes I would. Would I rather have Fitzpatrick then Baker Mayfield? Probably. Would I rather have Fitzpatrick then a stud prospect such as a Ryan Leaf? Yes. Would I rather have Fitzpatrick then Roethlisberger, Eli or Rivers? Maybe not.

[86WARD]

Agreed, didn't the D give up 3 TD's in the last 4 Seattle possessions? That was terrible.

Somewhere between the third preseason game and Week One, the concept of tackling was forgotten...the good news is, from his highlight package, Fitzpatrick tackles well...

[AtlantaDan]

FWIW ESPN currently projects a probability of 28% that the Steelers traded away a top 10 first round pick (current projection #9 based on running 10,000 simulations of the rest of the schedule) and a 1% probability they traded away the #1 pick

https://es.pn/2UbveG9

As has been posted above, the Steelers already were going to be looking for another DB in a high round (although OLB was another possibility) - I assumed Davis was gone once there were apparently no meaningful negotiations to sign him to an extension in preseason

Fitzpatrick could be a bust but so could whoever they drafted. Steelers got a player who was a #11 pick in the first round and have him for 4 years rather than the 5 they would have for their 2020 first round choice (with a lower 5th year option cost since Fitzpatrick was drafted outside the top 10)

So the value of the traded pick and who they got for it seems to be comparable - we are not talking Mike Ditka trading away his entire draft for Ricky Williams

[Born2Steel]

I’m reading more than a few debates on whether the offense or defense has been worse. Just my 2cents but for me it’s the offense that has put the defense in bad spots. Too many 3&outs makes the 4th qtr tougher on a defense. Turnovers make everything tougher on a defense. Not saying the defense looks great but they have been better overall than the offense through 2 games. I think the defense gets much better before the offense truly gets clicking.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I’m reading more than a few debates on whether the offense or defense has been worse. Just my 2cents but for me it’s the offense that has put the defense in bad spots. Too many 3&outs makes the 4th qtr tougher on a defense. Turnovers make everything tougher on a defense. Not saying the defense looks great but they have been better overall than the offense through 2 games. I think the defense gets much better before the offense truly gets clicking.

Yes, but when your 2nd year backup QB is pressed into service in the 2nd half and actually engineers drives that result in 2TD and 1FG, you would hope that the defense can support the kid with some stops. Instead they give up 21 points in a half of football.

I get it that a short field was given to them on one drive due to Donte "hands of stone" Moncrief, but the Defense needs to get some stops, not just be a speed bump for opposing offenses.

[Mojouw]

OK, so how does turnover differential figure into that recipe? I thought that if you win the turnover differential, that you win games.

Usually you do. This time they didn't. One game doesn't change the overwhelming amount of evidence that winning turnover differential is really really important.

If you are specifically trying to call me out on it based on my multiple strongly worded comments on the subject over the past year, then you would do well to remember that I also posted at length that you have to be scoring tons of points on offense. You can't just get a bunch of turnovers on defense and be like "jobs done!". Your own offense has to at least match the output of the other offense. The Steelers did not. They punted, the Seahawks scored touchdowns. The "extra" possessions the defense gave them almost allowed them to close the gap, but not quit.

I'll stand by my statements despite the loss this time.

[Mojouw]

I’m reading more than a few debates on whether the offense or defense has been worse. Just my 2cents but for me it’s the offense that has put the defense in bad spots. Too many 3&outs makes the 4th qtr tougher on a defense. Turnovers make everything tougher on a defense. Not saying the defense looks great but they have been better overall than the offense through 2 games. I think the defense gets much better before the offense truly gets clicking.


Yes, but when your 2nd year backup QB is pressed into service in the 2nd half and actually engineers drives that result in 2TD and 1FG, you would hope that the defense can support the kid with some stops. Instead they give up 21 points in a half of football.

I get it that a short field was given to them on one drive due to Donte "hands of stone" Moncrief, but the Defense needs to get some stops, not just be a speed bump for opposing offenses.

This is two games in a row where the defense has played like 25-35 more snaps than the offense. That is just too much. I am not a big time of possession guy, but I also don't think it is totally irrelevant. Let alone wearing down, or needing to expose Chickillo and other second-tier guys to more snaps, it is just too many opportunities to hand to guys like Brady and Wilson. You give top flight QBs that many chances to figure you out and expose your weaknesses, they are going to do it.

The offense needs to score more (obviously, Hi John Madden!) but aside from that they need to string some first downs together. They aren't even helping to flip field position. It is either a 3 and out or a score. Need to sometimes just move the ball a bit. Just like last season, this team is shaping up to have to go 80+ yards every time they touch the ball. A tall order.

[Fire Goodell]

This is two games in a row where the defense has played like 25-35 more snaps than the offense. That is just too much. I am not a big time of possession guy, but I also don't think it is totally irrelevant. Let alone wearing down, or needing to expose Chickillo and other second-tier guys to more snaps, it is just too many opportunities to hand to guys like Brady and Wilson. You give top flight QBs that many chances to figure you out and expose your weaknesses, they are going to do it.

The offense needs to score more (obviously, Hi John Madden!) but aside from that they need to string some first downs together. They aren't even helping to flip field position. It is either a 3 and out or a score. Need to sometimes just move the ball a bit. Just like last season, this team is shaping up to have to go 80+ yards every time they touch the ball. A tall order.

I agree, I think a lot of it to blame is on Ben's cowboy shit. Yeah it can get you big plays and big yardage, but often puts the defense in a bad spot. 25-35 more snaps than the offense is downright unacceptable, and it's no surprise that when you give that many extra plays to Brady or Wilson, they'll eat you up. The defense actually looked good before they wore down vs Seattle

[Mojouw]

I agree, I think a lot of it to blame is on Ben's cowboy shit. Yeah it can get you big plays and big yardage, but often puts the defense in a bad spot. 25-35 more snaps than the offense is downright unacceptable, and it's no surprise that when you give that many extra plays to Brady or Wilson, they'll eat you up. The defense actually looked good before they wore down vs Seattle

I realize it is a bit of a ridiculous argument...BUT...say that the defense had played 10 less snaps...does Dupree (a popular whipping boy I know) have a bit more juice on that last Wilson scramble and get him on the ground after a 5 yard gain instead of letting Wilson slip the tackle? Then the Seahawks punt and...who knows...?

[Fire Goodell]

Don't know, it's impossible to tell really. But I'm confident they wouldn't have allowed 3 straight scores and allowing them to run out the clock when they got the ball with over 5 minutes left.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Usually you do. This time they didn't. One game doesn't change the overwhelming amount of evidence that winning turnover differential is really really important.

If you are specifically trying to call me out on it based on my multiple strongly worded comments on the subject over the past year, then you would do well to remember that I also posted at length that you have to be scoring tons of points on offense. You can't just get a bunch of turnovers on defense and be like "jobs done!". Your own offense has to at least match the output of the other offense. The Steelers did not. They punted, the Seahawks scored touchdowns. The "extra" possessions the defense gave them almost allowed them to close the gap, but not quit.

I'll stand by my statements despite the loss this time.

I was honestly interested in your viewpoint, since you spent a lot of the offseason posting about turnover differential and the need to get guys to cause turnovers. I didn't really recall posts about putting up tons of points. Maybe because for a few seasons all people do is talk about the offensive skill around Ben and the Steelers should be putting up 30 points a game, but it never really materialized that way.

Can win the turnover battle, but if you cant score or stop the opposition from scoring, then its mainly just a shift in field position.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I realize it is a bit of a ridiculous argument...BUT...say that the defense had played 10 less snaps...does Dupree (a popular whipping boy I know) have a bit more juice on that last Wilson scramble and get him on the ground after a 5 yard gain instead of letting Wilson slip the tackle? Then the Seahawks punt and...who knows...?

It actually is a bit ridiculous of an argument.

Seahawks had 3 TD drive in succession in the 2nd half. 6 Plays for 40 yds TD, 7 Plays for 75 yds TD and 6 plays for 75 yds and TD. Its on the Defense to get off the field on 3rd down and not give up 190 yds and 21 points in succession.

In between those 3 TD's, the Steelers had drives of 7 plays for 60 yds and a FG and 12 plays for 75 yds and TD. Plenty of time for highly trained professional athletes to not get tired like a 5 yr old at nap time. Both teams has 19 plays and the Steelers gave up 21 points, while Seattle gave up 10 in the same amount of plays.

Steelers defense appeared to be employing nickel, dime and dividend defense. A new Keith Butler system where they yield points a regularly scheduled intervals to allow for a steady stream of points to the opposing team. The Steelers offense rallied around their backup QB and put up 16 points, while the Steelers defense played matador and gave up 21 points, 237 yards and a 12 play 5:34 drive to end the football game.

[tube517]

Fast Wilie Minkah will wear #39

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Fast Wilie Minkah will wear #39

Darren Perry's old #.

Honestly, the more I read and see his interview with Missi Matthews, the more excited I am that he and Edmunds are at Safety. Ball is life for this kid, he chases perfection and is never satisfied with the smallest error. One pre draft comment on him was "
not quite on the same level of Jamal Adams when it comes to changing the entire culture of a locker room, but he is just as talented and probably more versatile"

[DesertSteel]

Steelers defense appeared to be employing nickel, dime and dividend defense. A new Keith Butler system where they yield points a regularly scheduled intervals to allow for a steady stream of points to the opposing team.
Lol. That’s funny.

[Mojouw]

I was honestly interested in your viewpoint, since you spent a lot of the offseason posting about turnover differential and the need to get guys to cause turnovers. I didn't really recall posts about putting up tons of points. Maybe because for a few seasons all people do is talk about the offensive skill around Ben and the Steelers should be putting up 30 points a game, but it never really materialized that way.

Can win the turnover battle, but if you cant score or stop the opposition from scoring, then its mainly just a shift in field position.

Sure. Or you can score with your own offense at the same rate as the other team and win a shoot-out because you get an extra possession or two. Previous few seasons, the Steelers were converting a high rate of their drives into points. Ranking in the top 5-10 each season. This year they are converting a bottom 1/3 of their drives into points. In the last few seasons, teams helmed by a top tier QB have basically been good for 20-25 points simply by taking the field. Few defenses, if any, have been consistently generating stops/punts against good (let alone great offenses). So, what can you do? You can take the ball away. This prevents a score on your team and gives your own offense an "extra" chance to put up points. Steelers lost a ton of close games last year because their offense had a bunch of turnovers and the defense didn't generate any. So other teams got an extra possession or two to try and match the high end scoring output Ben and the offense were putting up. This year, so far, they can't even convert third downs consistently let alone score oodles of points. So, in 2018 they had the offensive part down. In 2019, they have the defensive part down --- but you have to be able to put the two together.

[Mojouw]

It actually is a bit ridiculous of an argument.

Seahawks had 3 TD drive in succession in the 2nd half. 6 Plays for 40 yds TD, 7 Plays for 75 yds TD and 6 plays for 75 yds and TD. Its on the Defense to get off the field on 3rd down and not give up 190 yds and 21 points in succession.

In between those 3 TD's, the Steelers had drives of 7 plays for 60 yds and a FG and 12 plays for 75 yds and TD. Plenty of time for highly trained professional athletes to not get tired like a 5 yr old at nap time. Both teams has 19 plays and the Steelers gave up 21 points, while Seattle gave up 10 in the same amount of plays.

Steelers defense appeared to be employing nickel, dime and dividend defense. A new Keith Butler system where they yield points a regularly scheduled intervals to allow for a steady stream of points to the opposing team. The Steelers offense rallied around their backup QB and put up 16 points, while the Steelers defense played matador and gave up 21 points, 237 yards and a 12 play 5:34 drive to end the football game.

How is it any more ridiculous than needing to run the ball to control the flow of the game? I figure if you face more snaps than the average team, you have an increased chance for a breakdown or being a step slow to close out a gap. Steelers are facing somewhere between 5-10 more snaps per game on defense than most NFL teams are. In a game where one or two plays are all the difference between winning and losing...that has to matter.

And they are not matching that by some fantastic pace of play on offense. They are running some of the fewest number of plays per game in the league. I haven't totally done the math myself to figure it out, but something I saw online earlier this week said it has been about 2+ dozen plays per week through two weeks MORE that the Steelers defense has faced.

I can not come up with a way that exposing this defense to additional Brady and Wilson snaps has anything but a completely terrible impact.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Lol. That’s funny.

Thanks, I am here all week....try the veal and don't forget to tip your waitress or waiter. (I'm not sure what is appropriate, so am trying to be server-neutral)

[Born2Steel]

How is it any more ridiculous than needing to run the ball to control the flow of the game? I figure if you face more snaps than the average team, you have an increased chance for a breakdown or being a step slow to close out a gap. Steelers are facing somewhere between 5-10 more snaps per game on defense than most NFL teams are. In a game where one or two plays are all the difference between winning and losing...that has to matter.

And they are not matching that by some fantastic pace of play on offense. They are running some of the fewest number of plays per game in the league. I haven't totally done the math myself to figure it out, but something I saw online earlier this week said it has been about 2+ dozen plays per week through two weeks MORE that the Steelers defense has faced.

I can not come up with a way that exposing this defense to additional Brady and Wilson snaps has anything but a completely terrible impact.

You are correct. Kelly proved this theory in Philly by running a fast paced offense that resulted in a defense that played the equivalent of 3 games for every other defense’s 2.(based on snap count) This is not a recipe for success.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

How is it any more ridiculous than needing to run the ball to control the flow of the game? I figure if you face more snaps than the average team, you have an increased chance for a breakdown or being a step slow to close out a gap. .

The defense gave up 19 consecutive plays without getting a stop and surrendered 21 points...WITHOUT FORCING A PUNT. They then forced a fumble on 1 play and then gave up 12 more plays to end the game.

On the final 32 defensive snaps of the game, the Steelers forced 1 fumble and ZERO punts or turnover on downs. How can you try and make a statistical argument that the Offense left the Defense on the field too long? If you think the Defense playing 10 fewer snaps in that game would keep them fresh, they need to not go 31 of 32 plays without forcing a turnover on downs or a punt. :doh:

[Squeegee Thompson]

The defense gave up 19 consecutive plays without getting a stop and surrendered 21 points...WITHOUT FORCING A PUNT. They then forced a fumble on 1 play and then gave up 12 more plays to end the game.

On the final 32 defensive snaps of the game, the Steelers forced 1 fumble and ZERO punts or turnover on downs. How can you try and make a statistical argument that the Offense left the Defense on the field too long? If you think the Defense playing 10 fewer snaps in that game would keep them fresh, they need to not go 31 of 32 plays without forcing a turnover on downs or a punt. :doh:

... and rolled out in their home opener on an 80 degree day in September wearing ... you guessed it ... black effing jerseys. Ya think that may have contributed to the defense getting gassed at the end of the game just a smidge?

Notice how Baltimore played their home opener in white jerseys? They weren't too stubborn as to cook their players in their traditional home jerseys.

[Mojouw]

The defense gave up 19 consecutive plays without getting a stop and surrendered 21 points...WITHOUT FORCING A PUNT. They then forced a fumble on 1 play and then gave up 12 more plays to end the game.

On the final 32 defensive snaps of the game, the Steelers forced 1 fumble and ZERO punts or turnover on downs. How can you try and make a statistical argument that the Offense left the Defense on the field too long? If you think the Defense playing 10 fewer snaps in that game would keep them fresh, they need to not go 31 of 32 plays without forcing a turnover on downs or a punt. :doh:

Of course they do. I mean getting "stops" on defense is the whole point of playing defense. But, I kinda sorta maybe figure, that facing more plays by an "elite" QB with some fairly decent offensive weapons might expose your already suspect defense to an increased chance of screwing up?

I mean I guess you saw numbers in my post and decided to take up the position that somehow anything to do with numbers ignores the realities of football or something. You do realize that what happens on one side of the ball can be incredibly related to what happens on the other? Early in the game the Steelers defenders were flying all over the field. Then they were slow to close gaps and struggled to close out drives later in the game. Of course there is no chance that extra fraction of a second that is often the difference between success and failure in the NFL has ANYTHING to do with facing a high # of plays? Nah. That. Couldn't be it. The coaches are just dumb and the players don't have enough fire in their bellies.

I have no idea why you are so freaked out by this idea? I'm starting with the same problem you are -- the defense surrendered too many conversions and points on multiple second half drives. Going from there, I offered on aspect of an explanation for why that took place. There are other components of an explanation to be discussed as well. We could talk about the "intriguing" angles that Barron takes on the field. We could talk about Bush getting a read wrong and not covering the TE. We could talk about a defensive scheme that shifted Nelson off Metcalf to the TE and Edmunds onto Metcalf simply by changing were Metcalf started the play. That led to a TD. We could discuss the nice moving pictures article that was out this morning showing how pass rushers got shifted out of their lanes and provided gaps for Wilson to scramble late in the game. All of these point to multiple defensive breakdowns. A potential explanation for a contributing factor to these breakdowns is that the defense is facing a lot of plays per game. It is not a rousing defense of the defensive outcome nor a condemnation of the offense. It is a simple observation that the lack of extended drives on the part of the offense exposes the defense to more Russell Wilson.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Of course they do. I mean getting "stops" on defense is the whole point of playing defense. But, I kinda sorta maybe figure, that facing more plays by an "elite" QB with some fairly decent offensive weapons might expose your already suspect defense to an increased chance of screwing up?

I mean I guess you saw numbers in my post and decided to take up the position that somehow anything to do with numbers ignores the realities of football or something. You do realize that what happens on one side of the ball can be incredibly related to what happens on the other? Early in the game the Steelers defenders were flying all over the field. Then they were slow to close gaps and struggled to close out drives later in the game. Of course there is no chance that extra fraction of a second that is often the difference between success and failure in the NFL has ANYTHING to do with facing a high # of plays? Nah. That. Couldn't be it. The coaches are just dumb and the players don't have enough fire in their bellies.

I have no idea why you are so freaked out by this idea? I'm starting with the same problem you are -- the defense surrendered too many conversions and points on multiple second half drives. Going from there, I offered on aspect of an explanation for why that took place. There are other components of an explanation to be discussed as well. We could talk about the "intriguing" angles that Barron takes on the field. We could talk about Bush getting a read wrong and not covering the TE. We could talk about a defensive scheme that shifted Nelson off Metcalf to the TE and Edmunds onto Metcalf simply by changing were Metcalf started the play. That led to a TD. We could discuss the nice moving pictures article that was out this morning showing how pass rushers got shifted out of their lanes and provided gaps for Wilson to scramble late in the game. All of these point to multiple defensive breakdowns. A potential explanation for a contributing factor to these breakdowns is that the defense is facing a lot of plays per game. It is not a rousing defense of the defensive outcome nor a condemnation of the offense. It is a simple observation that the lack of extended drives on the part of the offense exposes the defense to more Russell Wilson.

Might be a strange question...but did you actually watch the game on Sunday?

First half I didn't see any sustained drives by either team. Steelers had 4 sacks of Wilson, 1 forced fumble, then forced some holding penalties and Hilton applied pressure on the corner blitz a couple times. Steven Nelson seemed to lock down his side of the field on pass plays. Only McCullers penalty on the FG extended a drive to result in a TD. I didn't see much from either team in the way of sustained drives that would wear a team out.

So assuming that professional football players can play a second half of football without being tired from the first 30 miutes. Why did the Steelers defense force a 3 and out to start the second half and then proceed to allow 21 points and not be able to get defensive stops for the next 31 of 32 plays? Was this play count discrepancy from the first 30 minutes of play, so physically draining that they were unable to cover the greats of the game like Will Dissley, Malik Turner or Tyler Lockett (18 rec on 20 targets)?

I think its simple. Seattle made adjustments at halftime and the Steelers defense could not stop them at all, giving up 21 points and choking them out with an almost 6 minute drive to end the game. I don't see any elaborate play count discrepancy in the first half that lead to the second half defeat....Occams razor.

[Mojouw]

Might be a strange question...but did you actually watch the game on Sunday?

First half I didn't see any sustained drives by either team. Steelers had 4 sacks of Wilson, 1 forced fumble, then forced some holding penalties and Hilton applied pressure on the corner blitz a couple times. Steven Nelson seemed to lock down his side of the field on pass plays. Only McCullers penalty on the FG extended a drive to result in a TD. I didn't see much from either team in the way of sustained drives that would wear a team out.

So assuming that professional football players can play a second half of football without being tired from the first 30 miutes. Why did the Steelers defense force a 3 and out to start the second half and then proceed to allow 21 points and not be able to get defensive stops for the next 31 of 32 plays? Was this play count discrepancy from the first 30 minutes of play, so physically draining that they were unable to cover the greats of the game like Will Dissley, Malik Turner or Tyler Lockett (18 rec on 20 targets)?

I think its simple. Seattle made adjustments at halftime and the Steelers defense could not stop them at all, giving up 21 points and choking them out with an almost 6 minute drive to end the game. I don't see any elaborate play count discrepancy in the first half that lead to the second half defeat....Occams razor.

Sure. Seattle did a couple of things that also contributed to the second half defensive breakdowns. They shifted to quicker and shorter passes that helped blunt the Steelers pass rush. They did the same thing the Patriots did. They moved WRs inside on empty sets and Pittsburgh responded by having their SS cover Metcalf down the seam, instead of the CB that had stymied him all game. Their OT's started holding more and hoping it didn't get called.

I still contend that since Seattle ran 13 more offensive plays than the Steelers did in the first half and 7 more than they did in the second half that the exposure of a suspect defense to an increased number of plays allowed the Seattle offense to identify and exploit weaknesses.

Will Dissly was open because Bush screwed up his assignment repeatedly. Either that or Barron. One of them flat out forget to cover him on the second TD. Since Nelson was on Metcalf most of the day, that means Lockett beat the rest of the secondary over the middle like a drum for most of the second half. I suspect that also had something to do with moving him around to get Edmunds in coverage. On one of the second half TDs, Chickillo had Penny dead to rights for a stop on 3rd down. Then he just missed a tackle that an NFL professional has to make. If the snap count wasn't high for the defense, maybe someone else is playing OLB on that play? Maybe they get Penny on the ground? Who knows.

It isn't like I'm saying the defense was good and was let down by the offense. I'm saying that they go together and the inability of the Steelers to move the ball in the first half and capitalize on a great half of defensive football likely had a negative impact on the final outcome.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I still contend that since Seattle ran 13 more offensive plays than the Steelers did in the first half and 7 more than they did in the second half that the exposure of a suspect defense to an increased number of plays allowed the Seattle offense to identify and exploit weaknesses....

I'm saying that they go together and the inability of the Steelers to move the ball in the first half and capitalize on a great half of defensive football likely had a negative impact on the final outcome.

I'm sure that is what coaches are thinking at halftime. In fact I think I have heard some halftime interview address that. Sounds something like this:

Sideline Reporter: Coach, how do you assess your teams performance in the first half?

Head Coach: We did some good things, but the other team has run 13 more plays that we have in the first half.

Reporter: But Coach, you are leading the game 10-7, have 4 sacks on defense and a forced fumble that you turned into 7 points?

Head Coach: Yes, but I don't know if our players will be too fatigued to keep playing at a high level for the second half. I think they might give up 3 long TD drives.

Reporter: Um, ok...back to you in the studio Gus.

[Born2Steel]

I'm sure that is what coaches are thinking at halftime. In fact I think I have heard some halftime interview address that. Sounds something like this:

Sideline Reporter: Coach, how do you assess your teams performance in the first half?

Head Coach: We did some good things, but the other team has run 13 more plays that we have in the first half.

Reporter: But Coach, you are leading the game 10-7, have 4 sacks on defense and a forced fumble that you turned into 7 points?

Head Coach: Yes, but I don't know if our players will be too fatigued to keep playing at a high level for the second half. I think they might give up 3 long TD drives.

Reporter: Um, ok...back to you in the studio Gus.


Maybe not those words. But I have heard coaches say things like our defense has played well and given us opportunities and we need to start capitalizing on those opportunities. OR maybe we couldn’t win diddly poo! WTF man, everybody knows how the defense goes affects the offense as well and how the offense plays affects the defense. Is this really a point of debate?

[Mojouw]

I'm sure that is what coaches are thinking at halftime. In fact I think I have heard some halftime interview address that. Sounds something like this:

Sideline Reporter: Coach, how do you assess your teams performance in the first half?

Head Coach: We did some good things, but the other team has run 13 more plays that we have in the first half.

Reporter: But Coach, you are leading the game 10-7, have 4 sacks on defense and a forced fumble that you turned into 7 points?

Head Coach: Yes, but I don't know if our players will be too fatigued to keep playing at a high level for the second half. I think they might give up 3 long TD drives.

Reporter: Um, ok...back to you in the studio Gus.

Ok. Because we have never heard coaches talk about "putting teams away" or "cashing in opportunities" or "taking control of the tempo".

I will issue a trigger warning if I am going to use numbers again to attempt to make a point about football. That way you can scroll past it and stay safe. It apparently deeply offends your sensibilities.

[st33lersguy]

All I know is he better transform into a stud. They surrendered a lot to get him

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

It apparently deeply offends your sensibilities.

Nope, numbers don't offend me at all. I have always been good with calculus, algebra, physics, etc. I just don't try to use statistics to justify a position like the extra 13 plays Seattle ran on offense in the first half, contributed to the Steelers playing matador defense in the 2nd half of the football game, as my experiences tell me otherwise.

[Mojouw]

Nope, numbers don't offend me at all. I have always been good with calculus, algebra, physics, etc. I just don't try to use statistics to justify a position like the extra 13 plays Seattle ran on offense in the first half, contributed to the Steelers playing matador defense in the 2nd half of the football game, as my experiences tell me otherwise.

Doesn’t that go against other positions you have staked out? If number of plays doesn’t matter, then why worry so much about running the ball to control the clock and the game?

I also never said it was the sole reason the defense parted like the Red Sea for much of the second half. But I fail to see how it cant be counted as a contributing factor? Each play an offense runs offers a chance to diagnose and identify how the defense responds to specific scenarios. Getting more looks at those responses has to help a team identify things to exploit moving forward. Maybe like in the second half of a football game? Perhaps a second half were a team shifted how they aligned their pass catchers and their play style in response to a dominant first half defensive effort?

Coupe that with the fundamental principle that playing NFL football is tiring and it is fairly reasonable to speculate that facing extra snaps on defense exposes you to breakdowns.

Is it right? I don’t know. It might just be a freaky correlation that teams that run a low # of offensive plays and face a high # of defensive snaps tend to lose football games. But I cant come up with a reason to reject it out of hand.

[BlackAndGold]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekNQLx26Z7A

[Craic]

I'll fully admit I am cautiously excited about Minkah and Edmunds patrolling the back end of our defense. Again, my only problem with this trade is a calendar that says 1982 and the hope that either Cliff Stoudt or Mark Malone would be the man. Turns out, neither of them were. Nor was Bubby Brister thereafter. So, if we were looking at a season where a QB would be playing the season for the first time, and there's a good chance we'd go 500 or worse, I'd rather keep that pick in my back pocket. I might not spend it this coming year and trade it instead for a first round next year. But I would assure that we had the draft capital to get a top QB if the guy we have now can't fill that role.

On that note, if we had given up two second round picks, one this year and one next, I'd be okay with it.

[Edman]

... and rolled out in their home opener on an 80 degree day in September wearing ... you guessed it ... black effing jerseys. Ya think that may have contributed to the defense getting gassed at the end of the game just a smidge?

Notice how Baltimore played their home opener in white jerseys? They weren't too stubborn as to cook their players in their traditional home jerseys.

So I guess it was the Black Jerseys that won Seattle a PI challenge that changed the game after the D had them stopped, let Daniel McCullers hand Seattle a touchdown, and why Donte Moncrief cannot catch a cold?

Every bounce went Seattle's way in that game. The Steelers fought hard and lost to a better team. Jerseys had nothing to do with it.

[86WARD]

I'll fully admit I am cautiously excited about Minkah and Edmunds patrolling the back end of our defense. Again, my only problem with this trade is a calendar that says 1982 and the hope that either Cliff Stoudt or Mark Malone would be the man. Turns out, neither of them were. Nor was Bubby Brister thereafter. So, if we were looking at a season where a QB would be playing the season for the first time, and there's a good chance we'd go 500 or worse, I'd rather keep that pick in my back pocket. I might not spend it this coming year and trade it instead for a first round next year. But I would assure that we had the draft capital to get a top QB if the guy we have now can't fill that role.

On that note, if we had given up two second round picks, one this year and one next, I'd be okay with it.

Ben is coming back. There’s no need to draft a QB in 2020. If Rudolph doesn’t work, 2021, 2022 are the QB draft classes you should be looking at. At this stage, I think they feel Rudolph is their answer and they feel like they’ve already gone through these motions. So on to address the next issue...

What do people want them to do? Keep holding draft picks and spending them on QBs and ignoring the rest of the roster? Great...then you find the next Andrew Luck...and he’s stuck on a shitty team like the Colts and retires early. Just because Rudolph wasn’t picked in the “Top-10” or whatever, doesn’t mean he’s not the answer. Shit...Hodges could be the answer and you don’t even know it yet...stranger things have happened...like a 6th Round pick winning 7 Super Bowls or a grocery store clerk winning 2 Super Bowls.

Face it, Steelers drafted their QB of the future and now they are going to try him out...doesn’t work, they have two more seasons with Ben to try to figure it out.

[teegre]

Is Grant Delpit better than Minkah Fitzpatrick?

Maybe. :noidea:

“A bird in the hand...”

[Born2Steel]

You now have a starting NFL FS(I hope that’s his position) which let’s you bring back a guy like Sean Davis on a backup contract where he can still learn the role, instead of forcing a new starter contract.

This also allows other important positions of need to move up the todo list. Draft picks are simply commodities to be spent or traded. You can’t save them up for a future date. If this was a top10 pick in the 2020 draft that just got traded away for Fitzpatrick I’m ok with that. How long is the list of top 10 prospects any of you would take over him anyway?

[Mojouw]

If it makes anyone feel better, confirmed reports trickling out that multiple teams were putting a round one pick on the table.

[Squeegee Thompson]

It's really troubling to see how players are now routinely pouting themselves off of teams they don't want to be on. It looks like a trend that's only getting worse. Granted, I've never seen a situation like Miami where they're openly tanking and not even giving lip service to trying to be competitive, but you have:

1) Anturdio quitting on not one, but two teams in under a year to land in the place he wanted to be all along.
2) Minkah Fitzpatrick requests a trade - and gets it netting a 1st rounder, apparently with more than one team willing to give up a first.
3) Jalen Ramsey requests a trade and looks like he'll get it.
4) Taco Charlton requests to be released and is - unfortunately for him, the other 31 teams in the league have also figured out he's a worthless pile of crap.
5) Jamal Adams is turning himself into public enemy #1 in NY seemingly to set up his departure ... probably to the friggin' Patsies.

How long before other good players on the Giants, Jets, Dolphins, Jaguars, Bengals, Cardinals, etc all get in on the act in order to get themselves away from a bad team? If you're a first-rounder or an All-Pro, then you know you have 'turd capital' to spend to get out of a bad situation.

In an era where the NFL is trying desperately to create parity throughout the league, the players are misbehaving themselves out of situations they don't want to be in in order to get themselves shipped to greener pastures. It's starting to look like players and agents are playing a game that the league and owners have yet to understand is being played.

[86WARD]

If it makes anyone feel better, confirmed reports trickling out that multiple teams were putting a round one pick on the table.

Ben getting injured probably pushed the steelers over the top from the Dolphins point of view...thinking they may have a lower draft pick now then the Eagles or whoever else was involved.

[steelreserve]

You now have a starting NFL FS(I hope that’s his position) which let’s you bring back a guy like Sean Davis on a backup contract where he can still learn the role, instead of forcing a new starter contract.

Dude ... if Sean Davis hasn't learned the safety role by this point, he's not learning the safety role.

You are still right - it's good that we are not counting on him to be the future at safety. We should be even more glad than you think.

[AtlantaDan]

In an era where the NFL is trying desperately to create parity throughout the league, the players are misbehaving themselves out of situations they don't want to be in in order to get themselves shipped to greener pastures. It's starting to look like players and agents are playing a game that the league and owners have yet to understand is being played.

NFL has the worst contract situation for players of any major pro league. No fully guaranteed contracts absent exceptional circumstances, what are presumably the best players coming into the league (first round picks) tied up on 4 year deals with a fifth year option exercised at the discretion of the team, players stuck on teams that are tanking the season like the Dolphins, and franchise tags to keep players off open market and risk career ending/diminishing injury while playing on one year tag.

Players are going to use whatever leverage they have to max out earnings and get out of situations they regard as not being in their best interests - if that undermines the NFL’s goal of creating parity my reaction as a player would be I cannot save or spend parity

Even players regarded as solid citizens such as Troy Polamalu are embittered by how the contract structure is skewed in favor of the owners, as evidenced by Troy being estranged from the organization after being cut loose and presumably not getting a dime for the 2015 salary on his last contract

It’s a business

[Edman]

It's really troubling to see how players are now routinely pouting themselves off of teams they don't want to be on. It looks like a trend that's only getting worse. Granted, I've never seen a situation like Miami where they're openly tanking and not even giving lip service to trying to be competitive, but you have:

1) Anturdio quitting on not one, but two teams in under a year to land in the place he wanted to be all along.
2) Minkah Fitzpatrick requests a trade - and gets it netting a 1st rounder, apparently with more than one team willing to give up a first.
3) Jalen Ramsey requests a trade and looks like he'll get it.
4) Taco Charlton requests to be released and is - unfortunately for him, the other 31 teams in the league have also figured out he's a worthless pile of crap.
5) Jamal Adams is turning himself into public enemy #1 in NY seemingly to set up his departure ... probably to the friggin' Patsies.

How long before other good players on the Giants, Jets, Dolphins, Jaguars, Bengals, Cardinals, etc all get in on the act in order to get themselves away from a bad team? If you're a first-rounder or an All-Pro, then you know you have 'turd capital' to spend to get out of a bad situation.

In an era where the NFL is trying desperately to create parity throughout the league, the players are misbehaving themselves out of situations they don't want to be in in order to get themselves shipped to greener pastures. It's starting to look like players and agents are playing a game that the league and owners have yet to understand is being played.

This "misbehaving yourself out of bad situations" wouldn't be happening if half of these football organizations were competent. Parity would return of the Jets, Bills, and Dolphins were good, but they are horrible. Teams have to be punished for tanking or gaming the system. The Colts have already destroyed the career of the league's youngest stars, because they just didn't give a shit.

This is the shoe dropping on crappy egotistical ownership.

[Hawkman]

Get ready for NO Football come next CBA.

[steelreserve]

Get ready for NO Football come next CBA.

Yeah, they've got way too many problems to sort through this time, and too many big egos and stupid people involved. I will be shocked if they do not lose at least part of the season next time.

[Mojouw]

Teams have no loyalty to players. Well, at least for the most part. So why should players have loyalty to teams?

[Mojouw]

"A few longer drives a game could do wonders for the Steelers, who right now have run the 3rd fewest offensive plays, and faced the 4th most plays on defense. And when you factor in the drop off in run defense when Stephon Tuitt leaves the game, fewer plays means fewer plays Tuitt needs to be off the field."

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2019/9/19/20870271/5-plays-that-show-the-steelers-were-close-to-playing-winning-football-vs-the-seahawks-nfl-news-49ers

[Born2Steel]

Dude ... if Sean Davis hasn't learned the safety role by this point, he's not learning the safety role.

You are still right - it's good that we are not counting on him to be the future at safety. We should be even more glad than you think.

Correct. The Fitzpatrick trade makes the future of Davis/FS a non-issue. If Davis is re-signed it will be in a backup role. Or as a rotational player at best. No need to offer starter money just to make sure we have somebody in that position. Makes re-signing Davis less expensive. If...safety is set personnel-wise, same with ILB, CB, DL, then the Steelers really only need to find an OLB once Dupree and Chick are gone. Defensively that is. This trade is a big deal.

[Edman]

Sean Davis was never going to amount to anything more than an average Safety. His rookie deal is expiring and was going to cost a ton of money after this season for what amounts to mediocrity.

The Steelers were going to replace Davis in the draft. They didn’t bother with yet another project player and have replaced him with a relatively young second year guy with a high ceiling. They got their draft pick early.

[tube517]

Sean Davis is gone after this year. Rosenhaus will probably make him do a video on Youtube and tell him to throw furniture off his porch and fart at his dentist.

[Shoes]

Teams have no loyalty to players. Well, at least for the most part. So why should players have loyalty to teams?

Speaking of loyalty, just think if NFL fans didn't show up at the stadiums on Sunday for a month or watch a game or buy a jersey. I think lots of issues would get fixed in a hurry.

[ALLD]

Speaking of loyalty, just think if NFL fans didn't show up at the stadiums on Sunday for a month or watch a game or buy a jersey. I think lots of issues would get fixed in a hurry.

I spend more time here than watching the NFL. I have yet to watch a live play since early last season. I checked out some highlights on YouTube, but consistent lack of preparation and heart have made it easy to find better things to do.

[AtlantaDan]

Speaking of loyalty, just think if NFL fans didn't show up at the stadiums on Sunday for a month or watch a game or buy a jersey. I think lots of issues would get fixed in a hurry.

Fans will excuse just about anything by a player, coach or owner if they perform well.

IMO what drives attendance is winning & costs of going to a game while TV ratings in a home market are driven by winning.

Character issues and contract disputes are a good source of talk radio & message board fodder but I cannot recall when that ever impacted the popularity of a team. Those issues impact individual player endorsements and jersey sales (see A. Brown) but in that case a new player steps up to sell jerseys and endorse the product (see J. Schuster)

Same goes with the Fitzpatrick trade - he seems to be a “high character” guy (as Rudolph seems to be) but if the play by them is not up to expectations or higher not being a locker room cancer will not placate the fan base

[BlackAndGold]

Is Grant Delpit better than Minkah Fitzpatrick?

Maybe. :noidea:

“A bird in the hand...”

I know this would go for any player in the NFL but Fitzpatrick would be the best DB in college football right now.

Delpit is very talented but man Fitzpatrick was a beast during his time with Alabama. He won both the Chuck Bednarik Award, and Jim Thorpe Award the same year, which only two other players have done, those two being Charles Woodson and Patrick Peterson. Also, consider the proven factor in this, I'm not sure it's a debate.

[teegre]

I know this would go for any player in the NFL but Fitzpatrick would be the best DB in college football right now.

Delpit is very talented but man Fitzpatrick was a beast during his time with Alabama. He won both the Chuck Bednarik Award, and Jim Thorpe Award the same year, which only two other players have done, those two being Charles Woodson and Patrick Peterson. Also, consider the proven factor in this, I'm not sure it's a debate.

Exactly.

Delpit miiiight be better. But, IMO, probably not.

Maybe Delpit is Jamal Adams. Then again, maybe he is Morris Claiborne. Somewhere in the middle is LaRon Landry.

The point (upon which we agree) is that the draft is not a sure thing.

Conversely, Minkah Fitzpatrick is (at worst) the next Chris Harris, Jr. ... and possibly the next Eric Berry (sans the cancer and/or injuries).

[Method28]

Well he definitely made his presence felt in his first game. Great start no doubt.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[teegre]

Well he definitely made his presence felt in his first game. Great start no doubt.

:nod: Yep

In all of the 2018 season, the Steelers safeties accounted for 2 total turnovers.

In the first quarter alone, Minkah accounted for 2 total turnovers.

ALSO... He barely knows the playbook. Just wait until he becomes “comfortable”.

[Dwinsgames]

Minkah is paying dividends already no question about it , that said the trade value will remain to be questioned if we continue to lose and creep up into the top 10 ( which is looking more and more likely as the weeks pass )

[86WARD]

Even in the Top-5, they still got Top-5 talent in that trade...

[cubanstogie]

No rookie is going to come in and make that kind of impact..then throw in he had 1 week of practice. Every time he blitzed unless he disrupted QB they got gashed down middle. Hopefully butler figured that out since I know shit and saw it in third quarter. They should find different ways to utilize him. Sky’s the limit. Hopefully he can make everyone around better too like magic johnson, It would be nice to see Edmunds elevate his game

[Hawkman]

:nod: Yep

In all of the 2018 season, the Steelers safeties accounted for 2 total turnovers.

In the first quarter alone, Minkah accounted for 2 total turnovers.

ALSO... He barely knows the playbook. Just wait until he becomes “comfortable”.

If you like the “playbook”.:wink02::chuckle:

[Mojouw]

MFF! So that is what competent safety play looks like. I almost forgot.

Honestly, more impressive than his actual play was that he seemed to be pointing things out to other players and getting them aligned. Dude showed up on Tuesday!

If he can become the brains of this outfit of misfit morons, maybe it will start looking better.

For whatever the reason, this is the first game in a long time where the defense looked like it trusted what it was seeing, just played their assignments, and rallied to the ball.

[Hawkman]

MFF! So that is what competent safety play looks like. I almost forgot.

Honestly, more impressive than his actual play was that he seemed to be pointing things out to other players and getting them aligned. Dude showed up on Tuesday!

If he can become the brains of this outfit of misfit morons, maybe it will start looking better.

For whatever the reason, this is the first game in a long time where the defense looked like it trusted what it was seeing, just played their assignments, and rallied to the ball.

Not sure he is in the right position to have the green dot.....unfortunately. MLB/lLB has been the player for us. Not sure that is set in stone. I haven’t observed enough other teams. Farrior was definitely the man for the job. I’m not sure if he was a better field general or tackler.

[teegre]

Minkah is paying dividends already no question about it , that said the trade value will remain to be questioned if we continue to lose and creep up into the top 10 ( which is looking more and more likely as the weeks pass )

A bird in the hand...

[Steeldude]

Dude ... if Sean Davis hasn't learned the safety role by this point, he's not learning the safety role.

You are still right - it's good that we are not counting on him to be the future at safety. We should be even more glad than you think.

But we have to give him 5 years and then possibly sign him to a long term contract. Sometimes players don't bloom until their 13th year.

[Dwinsgames]

A bird in the hand...

for sure , but only if Rudolph shows to be the future ... otherwise your crack at a QB of the future gets put off where you would have had a great opportunity

[Born2Steel]

for sure , but only if Rudolph shows to be the future ... otherwise your crack at a QB of the future gets put off where you would have had a great opportunity

Parcells said the 1st round is ALWAYS about the QB. Either take a QB, someone to protect the QB, or someone to get after the QB. If Minkah is a safety that creates turnovers in the secondary and can create pass rush I think that fits right in there too. I understand he’s not going to get 2 turnovers per game but at least he will have the offense’s attention every game. Same as my hope for Bush and TJ.

[teegre]

for sure , but only if Rudolph shows to be the future ... otherwise your crack at a QB of the future gets put off where you would have had a great opportunity

True... if one feels that Eason, Tua, and Herbert (maybe even Fromm) are better than Rudolph. IMO, if they are indeed better, it’s not by a significant amount. As in:

Minkah & Rudolph > Davis & those QBs



NOTE: If it was the 2021 draft, and it was Trevor Lawrence... there’s no way I trade away a R1 pick.

[86WARD]

for sure , but only if Rudolph shows to be the future ... otherwise your crack at a QB of the future gets put off where you would have had a great opportunity

Who says there won’t be opportunity in 2020, 2021, 2022? There’s always opportunity no matter where you draft. Passing up an opportunity at a star player for a chance to draft JaMarcus Russell? I’ll take the known commodity.

Good thing is you will never ever know any other way at this stage. Lol

[j-d-s]

Minkah had a pick and a forced fumble. Can't do much better than that. And if Fichtner had called more aggressive plays we would've scored more points off the turnovers and won.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Team should have both Rudolph and Ben next season and draft a qb the following year if need be. The way the Steelers are playing the 2021 1st should be a top 5 pick. Minkah is a stud and way worth next years 1. Dude was everywhere and actually a DB that makes tackling look easy.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Also if Rudy and Ben don't work out don't forget we got Hodges.:deadhorse:

[Squeegee Thompson]

Parcells said the 1st round is ALWAYS about the QB. Either take a QB, someone to protect the QB, or someone to get after the QB. If Minkah is a safety that creates turnovers in the secondary and can create pass rush I think that fits right in there too. I understand he’s not going to get 2 turnovers per game but at least he will have the offense’s attention every game. Same as my hope for Bush and TJ.

The last difference-maker we had at safety, obviously, was Polamalu - who we traded up for and took at 1.16. If you go back and look at the players taken in front of him in 2003, none of them comes close to having the type of impact that Troy had on the field. Maaaaybe an argument could be made for Terrell Suggs at 1.10 - but that'd be a really weak argument.

If that draft was done over, Polamalu is the first player taken off the board - without hesitation. Over all 4 of the QBs taken that year. If Fitzpatrick is as the Pittsburgh brain trust thinks he is, then go get him.

The only way we'll be able to make a meaningful comparison is to see who Miami takes with our first-round pick. Their QB situation is atrocious, so it'll almost be guaranteed that they take one with that pick. If that player turns out to be a Ryan Tannehill v2.0, then Colbert looks like a genius. There's no Mannings or Lucks in next year's draft class that are gonna be sure-fire studs.

[Dwinsgames]

IMO can't base it on who Miami takes with the pick ... have to base it on who is available at the pick point and from there who is more steeler like and most talented .... we can not let Miami be the barometer of that as they have not been very good at determining those things

last 5 QBs drafted by the Dolphins

Brandon Doughty 7th
Ryan Tannehill 1st
Pat White 2nd
Chad Henne 2nd
John Beck 2nd

[Fire Goodell]

IMO can't base it on who Miami takes with the pick ... have to base it on who is available at the pick point and from there who is more steeler like and most talented .... we can not let Miami be the barometer of that as they have not been very good at determining those things

last 5 QBs drafted by the Dolphins

Brandon Doughty 7th
Ryan Tannehill 1st
Pat White 2nd
Chad Henne 2nd
John Beck 2nd

Next up
https://d1w8c6s6gmwlek.cloudfront.net/bigdogshirts.com/products/363/728/36372854.png

[Squeegee Thompson]

IMO can't base it on who Miami takes with the pick ... have to base it on who is available at the pick point and from there who is more steeler like and most talented .... we can not let Miami be the barometer of that as they have not been very good at determining those things

last 5 QBs drafted by the Dolphins

Brandon Doughty 7th
Ryan Tannehill 1st
Pat White 2nd
Chad Henne 2nd
John Beck 2nd

And then a few years before, some local western PA kid named Marino who the Steelers felt was too much of a party-boy.

Maybe it's a more accurate barometer to look at the what QBs were available with that pick, and if any of them ends up panning out. I just don't see anyone in the 2020 class that makes me salivate. It has a 2015 'Jameis Winston / Marcus Mariota' look to it. Not one of the QBs from that draft class ever did anything noteworthy.

[GoSlash27]

I love this trade, especially after seeing him light it up on Sunday. We had a position of need and filled it with a proven high first round talent. IMO we needed Fitzpatrick a lot more than we needed a question mark QB.

[Squeegee Thompson]

I love this trade, especially after seeing him light it up on Sunday. We had a position of need and filled it with a proven high first round talent. IMO we needed Fitzpatrick a lot more than we needed a question mark QB.

:iagree:

[Shoes]

I love this trade, especially after seeing him light it up on Sunday. We had a position of need and filled it with a proven high first round talent. IMO we needed Fitzpatrick a lot more than we needed a question mark QB.

So do I. He is a natural and that is huge imo.

[86WARD]

Even basing the pick off the players available...still doesn’t give an accurate barometer. It never will because none of those players will ever be in a Steelers uniform. If the Dolphins had Mahomes at QB right now, he wouldn’t be the Mahomes you see in KC...it’s all relative and you’ll never be able to get a full gauge on what would’ve been.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Look at it this way and Miami most likely will have the 1 pick of the draft. They will probably use their pick and take a QB and very likely the QB we may have wanted in this upcoming draft. Instead of letting that happen we screwed them first and took a heck of a player from them that filled a need for us.

[Mojouw]

I don't care where they finished this season, no way in hell the Steelers are going QB. It is all in to get back to the SB before age and the cap force them to press the big "reset" button.

So, is there a better FS for 2020 and 2021 than MFF in the draft? If no, it is an excellent trade. If, yes, then it might all depend on how much better.

[BnG_Hevn]

Parcells said the 1st round is ALWAYS about the QB. Either take a QB, someone to protect the QB, or someone to get after the QB. If Minkah is a safety that creates turnovers in the secondary and can create pass rush I think that fits right in there too. I understand he’s not going to get 2 turnovers per game but at least he will have the offense’s attention every game. Same as my hope for Bush and TJ.

I say build the defense up, THEN go for QB. Kordell took the Steelers deep when they had a good defense / running game. They need to go the route of the 2000 Ravens IMO.

[DesertSteel]

I don't care where they finished this season, no way in hell the Steelers are going QB. It is all in to get back to the SB before age and the cap force them to press the big "reset" button.

So, is there a better FS for 2020 and 2021 than MFF in the draft? If no, it is an excellent trade. If, yes, then it might all depend on how much better.
And then Colbert and Tomlin retire, coincidentally.

[Butch]

I say build the defense up, THEN go for QB. Kordell took the Steelers deep when they had a good defense / running game. They need to go the route of the 2000 Ravens IMO.
But winning like that is only good for 1 super bowl IF you are lucky. Even with Kordell we never got to the big game. I would rather find the right QB and build around him than to have a Great D and a so-so QB.

That all being said I still like the trade for Fitzpatrick. Ben will be back next year if Mason isn't the answer this year.

[Edman]

But winning like that is only good for 1 super bowl IF you are lucky. Even with Kordell we never got to the big game. I would rather find the right QB and build around him than to have a Great D and a so-so QB.

That all being said I still like the trade for Fitzpatrick. Ben will be back next year if Mason isn't the answer this year.

It doesn't matter if Mason is the "answer" this year or not. The Steelers are not replacing him anytime soon.

The Steelers trading away their first round pick for 2020 tells us they're likely satisfied with their QB situation, see no QB worth taking with that top pick regardless of how they finish in 2019, and are not taking a chance on yet another defensive project player like Sean Davis, Edmunds, Dupree, or Jarvis Jones, and just skipped over the nonsense completely to get an already finished product in Fitzpatrick, who is very young and affordable on a rookie contract.

Ben comes back and takes the saddle in 2020, or Mason develops and breaks out over the course of 2019 and potentially makes Ben trade bait for Tampa Bay or Arizona. Tampa Bay has Ben's bestest buddy Bruce Arians as head coach, and may be looking for a veteran stop-gap for their next future QB after the Jameis Buston project is over, which is looking very likely this season.

[86WARD]

One year ago...today.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

One year ago...today.

:rofl: This bump is so good. Thanks for doing this.

All this thread is about how the Steelers cant get their future franchise QB, Minkah Fitzpatrick is not a FS, he is a slot corner, etc. Basically the Steelers got Fitzpatrick and missed the opportunity to draft Jordan Love. and the Dolphins drafted an OT with that pick. Colbert is a master thief.

[Dwinsgames]

I was not thrilled about the trade because he had not played well in Miami at S ... he was off the charts at Nickle but we needed a Safety ... turns out it wasnt him failing to play S it was the way they wanted him to play S because he has been nothing like what he was in Miami ....


now look at what we spent vs what Seattle just spent for a quality S via trade ... either we got a hell of a bargain or Seattle got fleeced ... maybe a bit of both ??