Buy Or Sell: AB’s Absence Will Lead To Fewer Interceptions From Roethlisberger

[polamalubeast]

Topic Statement: The absence of Antonio Brown will lower Ben Roethlisberger’s interception total.

Explanation: Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger threw 16 interceptions last season, which was the most in the league. Antonio Brown was the official target of record on 10 of those interceptions, more than double the amount of any other target.

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https://steelersdepot.com/2019/06/buy-or-sell-abs-absence-will-lead-to-fewer-interceptions-from-roethlisberger/

[DesertSteel]

I'm buying. It won't be a drastic change, because he's throwing to new receivers, but it'll be down from last year.

[Born2Steel]

Things we learn from day1 as far back as PeeWee football. Penalties and Turn Overs lose games. PERIOD. How much of an impact no AB has on that is to be decided. I'm more interested in fixing the RT spot first.

[steel striker]

It should be less because, we know that Ben would take chances throwing to AB. I mean who would not throw some balls that were less than 50% to AB? He was One Hell of a player you can't dispute that and, this year Ben just has to be Ben make good decisions and, I think the Steelers will go far this season.

[Mojouw]

Sell. Ben has and always will force the ball to his favorite WR. How many picks did he throw Wards way?

Also how many INTs did AB change because he ripped a ball down he had no business catching? It cuts both ways.

I bet Ben tosses INT at his same rate. Maybe number goes down because pass attempts go down.

[Butch]

Sell. Ben has and always will force the ball to his favorite WR. How many picks did he throw Wards way?

Also how many INTs did AB change because he ripped a ball down he had no business catching? It cuts both ways.

I bet Ben tosses INT at his same rate. Maybe number goes down because pass attempts go down.

How many picks did he throw to Hines? How many did he throw to Santonio and Heath? Should we also throw Nate Washington to the mix?

As for AB no idea I do know that Ben forced the ball to him and sometimes it panned out and some times it didn't. Not sure anyone can answer how many times he threw to AB and he made the reception or it ended in an Int. I have always felt that Int's should be credited to the WR when the ball is a catchable ball and the WR muffs it.

If like you say they go down because he is not attempting as many passes then maybe the better comparison would be at what percentage. :noidea:

[Mojouw]

How many picks did he throw to Hines? How many did he throw to Santonio and Heath? Should we also throw Nate Washington to the mix?

As for AB no idea I do know that Ben forced the ball to him and sometimes it panned out and some times it didn't. Not sure anyone can answer how many times he threw to AB and he made the reception or it ended in an Int. I have always felt that Int's should be credited to the WR when the ball is a catchable ball and the WR muffs it.

If like you say they go down because he is not attempting as many passes then maybe the better comparison would be at what percentage. :noidea:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00.htm

Ben tends to toss about 11-15 INTs per year at about a tick under 3% as a rate.

So assume he attempts more like 500 passes this upcoming year, then looking at about 13 INTs.

2014 was the ONLY season in Ben's career where he played a full slate of games AND had less than double digit INTs. The historical numbers and trends all point to Ben R throwing maybe 3 less INTs this season. So just can not buy the hypothesis that Ben's INTs come from force feeding AB. He was tossing the same amount of INTs per season and at the same rate per attempts long before AB showed up.

[Edman]

Sell: Ben -self-proclaims himself as a gunslinger and risk-taker. If Ben duplicates double digit interceptions in 2019, people will blame Juju or Fichtner instead.

[polamalubeast]

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00.htm

Ben tends to toss about 11-15 INTs per year at about a tick under 3% as a rate.

So assume he attempts more like 500 passes this upcoming year, then looking at about 13 INTs.

2014 was the ONLY season in Ben's career where he played a full slate of games AND had less than double digit INTs. The historical numbers and trends all point to Ben R throwing maybe 3 less INTs this season. So just can not buy the hypothesis that Ben's INTs come from force feeding AB. He was tossing the same amount of INTs per season and at the same rate per attempts long before AB showed up.


In the 2000s, the NFL had at least 3.0% interception by throw for most of the time.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/NFL/passing.htm


In the last 5-6 years it's 2.4,2.5%, so the NFL have a lot less interception in the last couple years

Ben has often been above average in the INT %, outside of the 2006 season, where it was ridiculous .... expect for that season, Ben has often been under control in his interceptions, but in the last few years, even if it was not awful, it was average his INT%

[teegre]

Ben’s 2019 season stat-line:

5,600 yards passing
37 TDs
17 INTs
1 Lombardi Trophy

(I only truly care about that last one.)

[steelreserve]

He'll force it to Juju instead.

It's not as if he wasn't known for taking risks and forcing throws before ...

[Mojouw]

In the 2000s, the NFL had at least 3.0% interception by throw for most of the time.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/NFL/passing.htm


In the last 5-6 years it's 2.4,2.5%, so the NFL have a lot less interception in the last couple years

Ben has often been above average in the INT %, outside of the 2006 season, where it was ridiculous .... expect for that season, Ben has often been under control in his interceptions, but in the last few years, even if it was not awful, it was average his INT%

Right. But that story that Ben R throws a high # of interceptions because he forces the ball to AB in order to please the jerk diva WR is false. Ben has basically thrown between 2-3% INTs every single season he played a full schedule of games. No reason to think that he will do any different in 2019 and suddenly throw INTs at a lower rate.

[Butch]

Right. But that story that Ben R throws a high # of interceptions because he forces the ball to AB in order to please the jerk diva WR is false. Ben has basically thrown between 2-3% INTs every single season he played a full schedule of games. No reason to think that he will do any different in 2019 and suddenly throw INTs at a lower rate.

What about the years he hasn't played a full schedule of games? Furthermore even if he does throw 2-3% Ints does it really matter?

[polamalubeast]

The int% of Ben was better than the NFL average from 2007 to 2012 (It was at 2.35 when the NFL averaged about 2.8-3.0 INT%)

Since 2013, its INT% is at 2.46 when the league average was at 2.4-2.5% INT, so he was average if we compare the rest of the league.

[polamalubeast]

What about the years he hasn't played a full schedule of games? Furthermore even if he does throw 2-3% Ints does it really matter?

Like the 2010 season with only 5 interceptions in 12 games!

The other two years where Ben was not great in the INT% was in 2008 (but 8 of his 15 interceptions were on 3 games in a row against the Giants, redskins and colts .... for the rest of the year, Ben had 7 interceptions in 13 games and 8 in 16 games including the playoffs) and 2011 where his interceptions were out of control on 2 games against the Ravens in opener and his game against the 49ers where he should have never played, since he was far from to be healthy.

2014, he was great to keep his interceptions down, same thing for 2017 except for the game against the jaguars ... Last year his INT% was average not awful, but it would have been lower if he would have less forced the ball to AB .

[Butch]

The int% of Ben was better than the NFL average from 2007 to 2012 (It was at 2.35 when the NFL averaged about 2.8-3.0 INT%)

Since 2013, its INT% is at 2.46 when the league average was at 2.4-2.5% INT, so he was average if we compare the rest of the league.

So he was average what does that really mean? How was he on wins those years? I mean isn't that really the only thing that matters? Some people throw around stats like they are some kind of foreboding of what is to come. Stats never really tell the whole story, and can be manipulated in so many different ways, so why get all wound up about them?

[polamalubeast]

So he was average what does that really mean? How was he on wins those years? I mean isn't that really the only thing that matters? Some people throw around stats like they are some kind of foreboding of what is to come. Stats never really tell the whole story, and can be manipulated in so many different ways, so why get all wound up about them?

I was only talking about his interceptions

I did not say Ben was average, since this is far from being the case!

[Butch]

Like the 2010 season with only 5 interceptions in 12 games!

The other two years where Ben was not great in the INT% was in 2008 (but 8 of his 15 interceptions were on 3 games in a row against the Giants, redskins and colts .... for the rest of the year, Ben had 7 interceptions in 13 games and 8 in 16 games including the playoffs) and 2011 where his interceptions were out of control on 2 games against the Ravens in opener and his game against the 49ers where he should have never played, since he was far from to be healthy.

2014, he was great to keep his interceptions down, same thing for 2017 except for the game against the jaguars ... Last year his INT% was average not awful, but it would have been lower if he would have less forced the ball to AB .

Case in point in 2008 we won the super bowl so what is the point?

[Mojouw]

What about the years he hasn't played a full schedule of games? Furthermore even if he does throw 2-3% Ints does it really matter?

Roughly the same to a little higher. It does not matter at all. The only point is that the idea that "No AB=Less INTs because AB forced Ben to force the ball." simply doesn't hold up to even a cursory look at Ben's long career.

Ben throws about 2-3% INTs per year regardless of who plays WR.

[86WARD]

Sell. Ben has and always will force the ball to his favorite WR. How many picks did he throw Wards way?

Also how many INTs did AB change because he ripped a ball down he had no business catching? It cuts both ways.

I bet Ben tosses INT at his same rate. Maybe number goes down because pass attempts go down.

This. I expect JuJu to lead the team in target interceptions this year. Ben forces balls and always has...as much as people would love to blame AB for it, it happened before he was in Pittsburgh.

[polamalubeast]

This. I expect JuJu to lead the team in target interceptions this year. Ben forces balls and always has...as much as people would love to blame AB for it, it happened before he was in Pittsburgh.

Except Ben was better that the league average for the INT % for the most part before the peak years of AB.

[Born2Steel]

The numbers tell many stories about the season. Example, last season Ben throws something like 17 INTs and I think I read on here somewhere that 10 were REDZONE INTs meant for AB. Yet the Steelers still led the league with almost a 75% REDZONE TD%. So the number/average is high, low, whatever, it still equals 75%(ish) REDZONE TD rate. I don't think any fan wants to lower that percentage. At the same time we ALL would love if those 10 REDZONE AB targets had been points instead of INTs of course.

The woes of last season was not Ben's INTs or who he was throwing to when he was intercepted. Fewer TOs all around and a few more take aways instead makes a happier season in 2019.

[pczach]

So he was average what does that really mean? How was he on wins those years? I mean isn't that really the only thing that matters? Some people throw around stats like they are some kind of foreboding of what is to come. Stats never really tell the whole story, and can be manipulated in so many different ways, so why get all wound up about them?



It's just like when Ben eludes two pass rushers, buys an extra 3.5 seconds, and ultimately completes a pass on a play when protection broke down and maybe 2 or 3 other quarterbacks even have a chance to make that play. Ben only gets credit for a completion, but anyone watching and understanding knows it is worth much more than that. He avoids what would definitely be a sack or a throwaway on almost any other quarterback. Players like Ben who create are often hard to quantify with raw stats.

Some guys can only play within the system. Ben has always been a quarterback that can do things when everything breads down. That's also a double-edged sword because he sometimes makes mistakes taking those risks, but that has ultimately been his strength and what has distinguished him from other QBs and has allowed him to make game-winning plays.

I hope he throws less picks, but it is ultimately about how many wins he leads them to and when he is able to get things done on the field that really matters.

[hawaiiansteeler]

I hope he throws less picks, but it is ultimately about how many wins he leads them to and when he is able to get things done on the field that really matters.

if only Ben watched more film and was a better leader like Peyton...

[Butch]

It's just like when Ben eludes two pass rushers, buys an extra 3.5 seconds, and ultimately completes a pass on a play when protection broke down and maybe 2 or 3 other quarterbacks even have a chance to make that play. Ben only gets credit for a completion, but anyone watching and understanding knows it is worth much more than that. He avoids what would definitely be a sack or a throwaway on almost any other quarterback. Players like Ben who create are often hard to quantify with raw stats.

Some guys can only play within the system. Ben has always been a quarterback that can do things when everything breads down. That's also a double-edged sword because he sometimes makes mistakes taking those risks, but that has ultimately been his strength and what has distinguished him from other QBs and has allowed him to make game-winning plays.

I hope he throws less picks, but it is ultimately about how many wins he leads them to and when he is able to get things done on the field that really matters.
Exactly

[pczach]

if only Ben watched more film and was a better leader like Peyton...


If only.....

[st33lersguy]

Consider that the game ab didn't play, ben threw an interception, his average per game for the season

[86WARD]

Except Ben was better that the league average for the INT % for the most part before the peak years of AB.

Still...Ben forcing the ball is Ben forcing the ball. Doesn’t fall on AB.

[Butch]

Still...Ben forcing the ball is Ben forcing the ball. Doesn’t fall on AB.
It did if Ben wanted to keep him happy and not have his diva wr throw a hissy fit on the sidelines.

[hawaiiansteeler]

It did if Ben wanted to keep him happy and not have his diva wr throw a hissy fit on the sidelines.

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/9382987/madab.0.gif

[86WARD]

It did if Ben wanted to keep him happy and not have his diva wr throw a hissy fit on the sidelines.

Ben forced the ball before AB and he will force the ball after AB. AB is the most talented receiver the Steelers have ever had so of course, Ben forced the ball to AB more than some of the others, but it falls on Ben as he’s the one forcing the ball and making the ill advised throws. If he’s doing it to make a teammate “happy”, then Ben is the one hurting the team more than anyone as he’s putting individuals in front of the team.

Ben forcing the ball isn’t a terrible thing, he’s made a pretty damned good career out of it, but it’s not ABs fault...lol. It wasn’t “ABs fault” ever up until this point. It’s just funny how the color of the glasses change...

[Butch]

Ben forced the ball before AB and he will force the ball after AB. AB is the most talented receiver the Steelers have ever had so of course, Ben forced the ball to AB more than some of the others, but it falls on Ben as he’s the one forcing the ball and making the ill advised throws. If he’s doing it to make a teammate “happy”, then Ben is the one hurting the team more than anyone as he’s putting individuals in front of the team.

Ben forcing the ball isn’t a terrible thing, he’s made a pretty damned good career out of it, but it’s not ABs fault...lol. It wasn’t “ABs fault” ever up until this point. It’s just funny how the color of the glasses change...

Never once did I see Ben throwing a fit on the sideline, but I have AB. Ben had to keep him appeased in order to avoid the inevitable melt downs. AB has proven by his own comments that he is only concerned for his own stats and was jealous of his former teammate getting the recognition he so insanely coveted. I honestly believe this all stems from the hit by burfect, it was after that hit when he started to act out. As for the glasses yours are a little tainted as well. Guess maybe we should just agree to disagree and move on.

[Six Rings]

I'm buying. Brown sometimes plays volleyball, which leads to interceptions, and Ben at times forced the ball to Brown. Brown is a smaller guy, not the type to win many jump balls or break up passes that are going to be intercepted.

[polamalubeast]

Remember when Ben had 45-50 sacks per year and many said it was his fault and not the o-line and that Ben would always give sacks regardless of the quality of his o-line because of his style and he was never going to change!

If he was able to change his style a bit, he can probably least forcing passes now that Ben will not hear Brown in his ear every time he had no target in a drive for him.I would be very surprised if JuJu acted like that.

[Mojouw]

I hope you guys are right. But it certainly does seem like we are already rewriting history here. All WRs want the ball. There are no WRs in the NFL who are not certain they are not open on every play and that the QB was dumb to not just cut it loose and get them the ball. But not Hines!. Yes, Hines and Jujubee.

Also, AB is small but he was one of the best contested catch WRs I’ve seen in a long time.

[polamalubeast]

I hope you guys are right. But it certainly does seem like we are already rewriting history here. All WRs want the ball. There are no WRs in the NFL who are not certain they are not open on every play and that the QB was dumb to not just cut it loose and get them the ball. But not Hines!. Yes, Hines and Jujubee.

Also, AB is small but he was one of the best contested catch WRs I’ve seen in a long time.

Yes, every WR wants the ball, but some are worse than others.

Like when Larry Fitzgerald did not have the ball in some game, the Cards had very little drama despite that ... but when Terrell Owens did not have the ball, it was a circus, even in the sidelines!

[pczach]

Yep, Antonio Brown is a real quality dude.

Ben is clearly the problem. I know that because I heard it here.

The front office and Tomlin were also the problem because they didn't know his family or his kids' names.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s5YYWESpAs


:jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::j erkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jer kit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerki t::jerkit:


If only Brown knew or cared about his own children. What a fraud.

AB lies about everything because that's what AB does. To think that so many want to buy into anything he claims is beyond ridiculous. Even if you dislike Ben and think he is a horrible human.....Holding AB in higher esteem than Big Ben is so intellectually dishonest that it's hard to know where to begin.

Does this explain why Big Ben throws interceptions? Of course not. But let's not sit here and point fingers at the quarterback in that relationship. Everything that happened on that field on game day is there for anyone to see. Anyone with sight can see who showed up the other nearly every week. Those who don't see it don't want to see it.

[AtlantaDan]

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00.htm

Ben tends to toss about 11-15 INTs per year at about a tick under 3% as a rate.

That link above to Ben throwing 23 picks in 2006 is a reminder what a total cluster the 2006 season was, peaking with the Raiders loss in which Ben threw 4 picks (2 pick sixes) and probably would not have been allowed to play under current standards after being concussed the previous week in Atlanta

For everyone who gets misty eyed about how great it was under Cowher, that team had one of the worst Super Bowl hangovers ever. Season was effectively over in early November as Cowher checked out with his family already moved to North Carolina while his contract extension discussions cratered that summer

FWIW I agree Ben has been careless with the INTs most of his career. That pattern returned after Ben had arguably his best season in 2014, which included only 9 INTs. I doubt 2019 will see a return to the disciplined play of 2014 and expect the usual number of boneheaded picks along with great plays from Ben this coming season - it is what it is.

[polamalubeast]

That link above to Ben throwing 23 picks in 2006 is a reminder what a total cluster the 2006 season was, peaking with the Raiders loss in which Ben threw 4 picks (2 pick sixes) and probably would not have been allowed to play under current standards after being concussed the previous week in Atlanta

For everyone who gets misty eyed about how great it was under Cowher, that team had one of the worst Super Bowl hangovers ever. Season was effectively over in early November as Cowher checked out with his family already moved to North Carolina while his contract extension discussions cratered that summer

.


One of the most painful seasons as a fan!

It was obvious that before the season it was Cowher's last season and it was his worst coaching job of his career and of course Ben's accident did not help, but he was so bad (especially in the first half of the season with 14 interceptions in 7 games) some thought the steelers needed a new QB for the future!

[Butch]

I hope you guys are right. But it certainly does seem like we are already rewriting history here. All WRs want the ball. There are no WRs in the NFL who are not certain they are not open on every play and that the QB was dumb to not just cut it loose and get them the ball. But not Hines!. Yes, Hines and Jujubee.

Also, AB is small but he was one of the best contested catch WRs I’ve seen in a long time.

polamalubeast beat me to it, but it's not rewriting football history. Yes every WR want's the ball, but the difference is how they go about it when they don't get it.

Swan and Stallworth both wanted the ball too. Swan once designed a play for Bradshaw to get him the ball and Terry ended up running that play in the Super Bowl but...to Stallworth for a TD. Swan didn't throw the Gatorade jug onto the field or storm off to the sideline in a huff. He shrugged his shoulder and moved on. With AB's recent activities I am convinced if that had that same thing happened to him he it would have been the end of the world for AB.

Last year AB walked out on his team in the last game of the season. I honestly think he believed the team would lose without him, but they didn't.

When he video taped from the locker room I was lead to believe from others on this board it's what people do today and not to worry about it and I thought maybe they are right. No it was definitely a sign of things to come.

[86WARD]

Never once did I see Ben throwing a fit on the sideline, but I have AB. Ben had to keep him appeased in order to avoid the inevitable melt downs. AB has proven by his own comments that he is only concerned for his own stats and was jealous of his former teammate getting the recognition he so insanely coveted. I honestly believe this all stems from the hit by burfect, it was after that hit when he started to act out. As for the glasses yours are a little tainted as well. Guess maybe we should just agree to disagree and move on.

I don’t think anyone said Ben was throwing fits. All of what you mention has nothing to do with Ben forcing the ball. Ben doesn’t have to force a ball to a WR...whether it be Hines, Holmes, Burris’s, Miller or AB. Ben chooses to throw the ball and that’s on Ben. NOTHING says he has to force the ball into a covered WR. NOTHING. If he’s throwing the ball in fear of some all of a sudden low character WR throwing a water cooler on the sidelines, that again, is a problem.

No ones saying Ben sucks...history just shows, on occasion he forces the ball where he shouldn’t...sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn’t.

[86WARD]

Yep, Antonio Brown is a real quality dude.

Ben is clearly the problem. I know that because I heard it here.

The front office and Tomlin were also the problem because they didn't know his family or his kids' names.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s5YYWESpAs


:jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::j erkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jer kit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerki t::jerkit:


If only Brown knew or cared about his own children. What a fraud.

AB lies about everything because that's what AB does. To think that so many want to buy into anything he claims is beyond ridiculous. Even if you dislike Ben and think he is a horrible human.....Holding AB in higher esteem than Big Ben is so intellectually dishonest that it's hard to know where to begin.

Does this explain why Big Ben throws interceptions? Of course not. But let's not sit here and point fingers at the quarterback in that relationship. Everything that happened on that field on game day is there for anyone to see. Anyone with sight can see who showed up the other nearly every week. Those who don't see it don't want to see it.

NONE of that has anything to do with where Ben decides to throw a football. Who is trying to say AB is a good character guy? Lol. What’s next? Ben threw the ball to JuJu because he wanted to make him feel good about losing his bike?

I get the hate for AB...it’s typical of this board to turn the hate switch on like that but to say It’s ABs fault Ben forces throws? Lol. Come on. What about the balls he forces to Washington? JuJu? McDonald? All ABs fault too?

[polamalubeast]

NONE of that has anything to do with where Ben decides to throw a football. Who is trying to say AB is a good character guy? Lol. What’s next? Ben threw the ball to JuJu because he wanted to make him feel good about losing his bike?

I get the hate for AB...it’s typical of this board to turn the hate switch on like that but to say It’s ABs fault Ben forces throws? Lol. Come on. What about the balls he forces to Washington? JuJu? McDonald? All ABs fault too?

Ben had only 6 interceptions in the other targets last year.

Yes Ben has often forced throw in the past, but it's rarely been out of control ... Sometimes if Ben had 2-3 drives in a row and that Brown had not a lot of target, AB would say it in the ear to Ben!

[pczach]

NONE of that has anything to do with where Ben decides to throw a football. Who is trying to say AB is a good character guy? Lol. What’s next? Ben threw the ball to JuJu because he wanted to make him feel good about losing his bike?

I get the hate for AB...it’s typical of this board to turn the hate switch on like that but to say It’s ABs fault Ben forces throws? Lol. Come on. What about the balls he forces to Washington? JuJu? McDonald? All ABs fault too?



That's why I stated in my post that you quoted: "Does this explain why Ben throws interceptions? Of course not."

It's right there in my post.

I was commenting on the situation and comments by people about who is to blame in the relationship and AB's sideline blowups. I am stating who puts pressure on the other, and why.

[86WARD]

That's why I stated in my post that you quoted: "Does this explain why Ben throws interceptions? Of course not."

It's right there in my post.

I was commenting on the situation and comments by people about who is to blame in the relationship and AB's sideline blowups. I am stating who puts pressure on the other, and why.

I get that. I wasn’t trying to single you out. Probably shouldn’t have quoted it. It’s just a general thing around here that once a guy leaves Pittsburgh he’s a four alarm asshole and all of a sudden all of Ben’s interceptions that went ABs way were ABs fault and the decision to “force” the ball was also ABs fault.

Is Ben that weak that he can’t make decisions without the ultra persuasive AB in his ear? Lol. Come on...

[86WARD]

Ben had only 6 interceptions in the other targets last year.

Yes Ben has often forced throw in the past, but it's rarely been out of control ... Sometimes if Ben had 2-3 drives in a row and that Brown had not a lot of target, AB would say it in the ear to Ben!

So Ben had to do what AB asked or did Ben make the decision to do what AB asked?

[43Hitman]

So Ben had to do what AB asked or did Ben make the decision to do what AB asked?You're making some damn good points. At first I thought you were bagging on him. Actually though you're just trying to keep us intellectually honest.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[86WARD]

You're making some damn good points. At first I thought you were bagging on him. Actually though you're just trying to keep us intellectually honest.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

I'm not bagging on Ben at all. I love the guy, probably more than the next fan does and wouldn't take many others in his place in Pittsburgh. The guy makes some questionable throws at times and forces the ball on his own. Brett Favre did the same thing and with that "forced interception", you get 2-3 plays that are brilliant. I'll take that trade off any day of the week. But people ayaing the interceptions are ABs fault alone...or that he's in Ben's ear and that's what caused the problems...it's fueled by hate on AB IMO. And can you blame Ben for trying to force the ball to the best WR in the league? Not really...

[HollywoodSteel]

I’m gonna go out on a real controversial limb here... and kind of agree with everyone.

I totally agree with Mojouw in the big picture sense. But did Ben have more interceptions LAST YEAR specifically because he tried to feed it to AB too often? Probably.

Is that the most important question in the grand scheme of things? Probably not.

For all of AB’s faults, was he a net positive for this team while he was here? That can’t really be a question in anyone’s mind. He was one of the best ever. That’s simply a fact.

Will the team as a whole be better this year now that he’s gone? I like to think so. But it’s a real stretch to say that our offense will be objectively better BECAUSE he is gone, regardless of the exact number of ints.

[polamalubeast]

AB was a great player for us on the field, but last year it was his worst season in his peak ..... It looks like the chemistry between Ben and Brown was not as good as in the other years before.

It's not only for the interceptions but also on its efficiency like the yards by target or its % of catch per target.

For the 10 interceptions of Ben with Brown as target .... It may not be Brown's fault,but it can be tiring for a QB to often hear a player that he was open, even if sometimes it was true.

[hawaiiansteeler]

AB scores 21 TDs and leads the Raiders to a Super Bowl Championship and is named the Walter Payton Man of Year winner for his charitable contributions in Oakland. meanwhile, Ben struggles without a go to WR and the Steelers win only 8 games (Tomlin never has a losing season).

[86WARD]

AB scores 21 TDs and leads the Raiders to a Super Bowl Championship and is named the Walter Payton Man of Year winner for his charitable contributions in Oakland. meanwhile, Ben struggles without a go to WR and the Steelers win only 8 games (Tomlin never has a losing season).

This board would explode...lol

[AtlantaDan]

It’s just a general thing around here that once a guy leaves Pittsburgh he’s a four alarm asshole

You mean like this? :coffee:

Warning - NSFW audio

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[Butch]

http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by 86WARD http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php?p=693859#post693859)
It’s just a general thing around here that once a guy leaves Pittsburgh he’s a four alarm asshole


Yeah because it's not like ab did anything to warrant being referred to as an asshole. It's one thing to leave a team it's another to force your way off the roster the way he did. ab had some good moments with us and they won't be forgotten, but they will be tarnished.

[86WARD]

Jeff Graham, Mike Vrabel, Plaxico Burress, Jeff Reed, Santonio Holmes, James Harrison, LeVeon Bell, AB...the list goes on and on. All considered assholes because they left Pittsburgh. No one said he isn’t an asshole but the objectivity is thrown out the window once a player leaves Pittsburgh...they’re just considered assholes...no questions asked...lol

[Mojouw]

Jeff Graham, Mike Vrabel, Plaxico Burress, Jeff Reed, Santonio Holmes, James Harrison, LeVeon Bell, AB...the list goes on and on. All considered assholes because they left Pittsburgh. No one said he isn’t an asshole but the objectivity is thrown out the window once a player leaves Pittsburgh...they’re just considered assholes...no questions asked...lol

You're not wrong.

[AtlantaDan]

Jeff Graham, Mike Vrabel, Plaxico Burress, Jeff Reed, Santonio Holmes, James Harrison, LeVeon Bell, AB...the list goes on and on. All considered assholes because they left Pittsburgh. No one said he isn’t an asshole but the objectivity is thrown out the window once a player leaves Pittsburgh...they’re just considered assholes...no questions asked...lol

I do not recall much venom directed at Graham (a mediocrity not worth getting worked up about) or Vrabel (who Cowher could never figure out how to use)

As far as the rest there is empirical evidence to support each of them being jackasses - Steelers fan base is no different than any other in turning on former players who were tolerated for acting out until they leave.

I have posted this before, but Jerry Seinfeld said it best - most fans root for the uniform


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we-L7w1K5Zo

[Butch]

I do not recall much venom directed at Graham (a mediocrity not worth getting worked up about) or Vrabel (who Cowher could never figure out how to use)]

If I am not mistaken Cowher actually suggested to hoody to take Vrabel.

[polamalubeast]

Jeff Graham, Mike Vrabel, Plaxico Burress, Jeff Reed, Santonio Holmes, James Harrison, LeVeon Bell, AB...the list goes on and on. All considered assholes because they left Pittsburgh. No one said he isn’t an asshole but the objectivity is thrown out the window once a player leaves Pittsburgh...they’re just considered assholes...no questions asked...lol

Pittsburgh is no different than several cities.

[86WARD]

I do not recall much venom directed at Graham (a mediocrity not worth getting worked up about) or Vrabel (who Cowher could never figure out how to use)

As far as the rest there is empirical evidence to support each of them being jackasses - Steelers fan base is no different than any other in turning on former players who were tolerated for acting out until they leave.

I have posted this before, but Jerry Seinfeld said it best - most fans root for the uniform


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we-L7w1K5Zo

There was hate for Graham. Same way there was for Randle El. It wasn’t that Cowher didn’t know how to use Vrabel, there was no room for Vrabel. But that really has nothing to do with the hate people had for him after he left.

Point is...there’s no objectivity whether they are assholes when they leave or leave on good terms. Once gone, they suck, what they did in Pittsburgh wasn’t that great and nothing they do from here on out is any good...lol.


A couple years ago, people around here were all over ABs junk about how he’s going to be better than Jerry Rice. He could do no wrong. Best receiver in the league. He was saying all the right things and then all of a sudden his ego stepped in and people thought he was just being funny and then it went all sideways...but people still defended him up until this past off-season. Now the guy all of a sudden isn’t a Top-5 talent...was never that good to start with, won’t be missed...blah, blah, blah. Same love JuJu is getting right now is the exact same love that AB got when Sanders left and what was Sanders? He sucked all of a sudden...lol.

[polamalubeast]

There was hate for Graham. Same way there was for Randle El. It wasn’t that Cowher didn’t know how to use Vrabel, there was no room for Vrabel. But that really has nothing to do with the hate people had for him after he left.

Point is...there’s no objectivity whether they are assholes when they leave or leave on good terms. Once gone, they suck, what they did in Pittsburgh wasn’t that great and nothing they do from here on out is any good...lol.


A couple years ago, people around here were all over ABs junk about how he’s going to be better than Jerry Rice. He could do no wrong. Best receiver in the league. He was saying all the right things and then all of a sudden his ego stepped in and people thought he was just being funny and then it went all sideways...but people still defended him up until this past off-season. Now the guy all of a sudden isn’t a Top-5 talent...was never that good to start with, won’t be missed...blah, blah, blah. Same love JuJu is getting right now is the exact same love that AB got when Sanders left and what was Sanders? He sucked all of a sudden...lol.

Again, Pittsburgh is no different than several other city

And who said that AB is not a top 5 talent and was never that good?...Not on this forum unless it was an overreation after the news.

[teegre]

There was hate for Graham. Same way there was for Randle El. It wasn’t that Cowher didn’t know how to use Vrabel, there was no room for Vrabel. But that really has nothing to do with the hate people had for him after he left.

Point is...there’s no objectivity whether they are assholes when they leave or leave on good terms. Once gone, they suck, what they did in Pittsburgh wasn’t that great and nothing they do from here on out is any good...lol.


A couple years ago, people around here were all over ABs junk about how he’s going to be better than Jerry Rice. He could do no wrong. Best receiver in the league. He was saying all the right things and then all of a sudden his ego stepped in and people thought he was just being funny and then it went all sideways...but people still defended him up until this past off-season. Now the guy all of a sudden isn’t a Top-5 talent...was never that good to start with, won’t be missed...blah, blah, blah. Same love JuJu is getting right now is the exact same love that AB got when Sanders left and what was Sanders? He sucked all of a sudden...lol.

I used to idolize OJ Simpson.

But... things change.

[polamalubeast]

At least,Pittsburgh fan don't fight each other like that!

1136834357912457216

[Butch]

There was hate for Graham. Same way there was for Randle El. It wasn’t that Cowher didn’t know how to use Vrabel, there was no room for Vrabel. But that really has nothing to do with the hate people had for him after he left.

Point is...there’s no objectivity whether they are assholes when they leave or leave on good terms. Once gone, they suck, what they did in Pittsburgh wasn’t that great and nothing they do from here on out is any good...lol.


A couple years ago, people around here were all over ABs junk about how he’s going to be better than Jerry Rice. He could do no wrong. Best receiver in the league. He was saying all the right things and then all of a sudden his ego stepped in and people thought he was just being funny and then it went all sideways...but people still defended him up until this past off-season. Now the guy all of a sudden isn’t a Top-5 talent...was never that good to start with, won’t be missed...blah, blah, blah. Same love JuJu is getting right now is the exact same love that AB got when Sanders left and what was Sanders? He sucked all of a sudden...lol.

I can only speak for myself. I have no problems with people who leave the team on good terms. ARE and Plex both left the team for more money at the end of their contract, and that is fine with me. There was no way we were going to outbid the skins for ARE. I also had no hate for Vrabel he was a good player for us and was practically given to that team by Cowher. I do wish he hadn't played for that team, but doesn't mean I hate him for it.

That all being said there is a BIG difference in leaving on good terms and burning down the team on your way out. James, Bell and AB all did just that and therefore tarnished everything they did. This all started when sucker punch was on the team. I have always and will always believe that he alone caused the situation with Bell. He was in his ear at the start of his career. He was by a looooong shot the worst free agent pickup the Steelers have ever made. It wasn't long and before players knew, it you want off the team then just do what he did and you will get your wishes. All 3 had good plays that no matter what will always be remembered, but they will also be tarnished. James in particular helped us win a superbowl, AB helped us beat the Ravens on Christmas day and Bell with his last second TD against the chargers. Of all of them I would say that Bell is more of a dipshit, James made bigger impact to the Steelers and AB was more of an asshole. Fault me for it all you want but that is the way I see it.

Yes AB is a top 5 if not the best WR in the NFL...when he played for us. I do not believe he will have that same success with David Carr as his QB. Ben had a LOT to do with AB's success's. There may even be some drop off with our game until Ben has time to gets up to speed with his new additions. That does't mean we can't be better without AB. It just recently came out that AB is more concerned about catching Rice than he is about winning...nice message to send to your new team and in my books shows me that he is deserving of the asshole title he has been shown.

[polamalubeast]

I can only speak for myself. I have no problems with people who leave the team on good terms. ARE and Plex both left the team for more money at the end of their contract, and that is fine with me. There was no way we were going to outbid the skins for ARE. I also had no hate for Vrabel he was a good player for us and was practically given to that team by Cowher. I do wish he hadn't played for that team, but doesn't mean I hate him for it.

That all being said there is a BIG difference in leaving on good terms and burning down the team on your way out. James, Bell and AB all did just that and therefore tarnished everything they did. This all started when sucker punch was on the team. I have always and will always believe that he alone caused the situation with Bell. He was in his ear at the start of his career. He was by a looooong shot the worst free agent pickup the Steelers have ever made. It wasn't long and before players knew, it you want off the team then just do what he did and you will get your wishes. All 3 had good plays that no matter what will always be remembered, but they will also be tarnished. James in particular helped us win a superbowl, AB helped us beat the Ravens on Christmas day and Bell with his last second TD against the chargers. Of all of them I would say that Bell is more of a dipshit, James made bigger impact to the Steelers and AB was more of an asshole. Fault me for it all you want but that is the way I see it.

Yes AB is a top 5 if not the best WR in the NFL...when he played for us. I do not believe he will have that same success with David Carr as his QB. Ben had a LOT to do with AB's success's. There may even be some drop off with our game until Ben has time to gets up to speed with his new additions. That does't mean we can't be better without AB. It just recently came out that AB is more concerned about catching Rice than he is about winning...nice message to send to your new team and in my books shows me that he is deserving of the asshole title he has been shown.

I'm of the same opinion that you ... It's important to leave on the right terms, what players like Brown and Bell have not done.

In the case of James Harrison, it's a little different, since James Harrison was just a bench warner in 2017, I would have been very upset if I was Harrison too.It was very painful at this time, but I understood Harrison.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

I don't see this brought up hardly ever in the Ben's INT discussions. To me it's more important what part of the field he is throwing them. Not so much the total, at both goallines are game killer ints and hope he cuts down on them! who cares if he throws a 60 yard int on third down ? Heck that is good as a punt if not better. Just wanted to point this out and again hardly ever brought up!

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I don't see this brought up hardly ever in the Ben's INT discussions. To me it's more important what part of the field he is throwing them. Not so much the total, at both goallines are game killer ints and hope he cuts down on them! who cares if he throws a 60 yard int on third down ? Heck that is good as a punt if not better. Just wanted to point this out and again hardly ever brought up!

But how many of those INT's were just as good as a punt? I guess the one in Denver on the goal line was just as good as punt, since the ball comes out to the 20 yard line.

Most of the INT's of the 10 to 20 yard nature are really no different, that if a RB had a 10 or 20 yard run and fumbled the ball away on contact while struggling for more yardage. Turnover and net yardage are pretty much the same, so don't really understand why if a RB does that, the player is vilified, yet the QB that throws the INT is just accepted as part of throwing the football.

[Born2Steel]

But how many of those INT's were just as good as a punt? I guess the one in Denver on the goal line was just as good as punt, since the ball comes out to the 20 yard line.

Most of the INT's of the 10 to 20 yard nature are really no different, that if a RB had a 10 or 20 yard run and fumbled the ball away on contact while struggling for more yardage. Turnover and net yardage are pretty much the same, so don't really understand why if a RB does that, the player is vilified, yet the QB that throws the INT is just accepted as part of throwing the football.

Maybe because a RB fumble is different usually. With a QB like Ben, typically a DB makes a play on a contested throw and wins a 50/50 ball. Yes some passes are smarter than others but usually a 50/50 that went the other way. If the RB fumbles it is closer to always the RB’s fault. Helmet to ball, rip at the ball, punch at the ball are all things RBs practice against. So I would say RB fumbles are from 75%-99% the RBs fault. Just my opinion.

Last season Grimble and JuJu’s fumbles cost us games. Fault goes to Grimble and JuJu, IMO. WRs definitely take the blame for fumbles more than RBs and a lot of times should take blame for INTs as well.