NFL coach rankings: Best and worst of league's coaches in 2019(Tomlin is 8th)

[polamalubeast]

We all know Bill Belichick is the class of NFL coaching. But where do the likes of Jason Garrett, Jon Gruden and Mike Tomlin rank among current head coaches?

#8 Mike Tomlin, Steelers
Last year: 3

Record: 125-66-1, .654

Playoffs: 8-7, .533

This might seem low given Tomlin's track record, but every coach ranked ahead of him (and the first four behind him) made the playoffs last season. Tomlin dealt with Le'Veon Bell's holdout and Antonio Brown's Week 17 disappearing act, and Pittsburgh lost control of the AFC North as a result. Baltimore and Cleveland are not going to let up, either. Maybe Tomlin will re-gain his mojo and put the Steelers back in the playoffs. If not, then this ranking will seem too high going into 2020.

read more

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/nfl-coach-rankings-best-worst-coaches-2019/1jnocuy5khamw11m7fennsalvb/8

[st33lersguy]

Cue the ridiculous notions claiming Tomlin is somehow the 2nd best head coach in the league with people using only the shortcomings of head coaches not named Bellichick to make the argument

[Six Rings]

There are a few young coaches on the way up. I'd put Tomlin around 14th. Average.

[Edman]

#8 is generous for Tomlin. I'd put him around #14-#21 Range. Looking at his overall body of work and his track record, he's subpar.

[Born2Steel]

Cue the ridiculous notions claiming Tomlin is somehow the 2nd best head coach in the league with people using only the shortcomings of head coaches not named Bellichick to make the argument

Tomlin is the 2nd best coach behind Bellichick. Which makes him the number one coach that doesn't cheat. Seems to me that if other coaches were better at their job the Pats would only have 3 Lombardis at most.

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#8 is generous for Tomlin. I'd put him around #14-#21 Range. Looking at his overall body of work and his track record, he's subpar.

Again....count his victories. Where does that number rank currently? Or does winning games not matter?

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There are a few young coaches on the way up. I'd put Tomlin around 14th. Average.

And you would be wrong. He's 2nd only behind Beticheat.

[hawaiiansteeler]

#8 is generous for Tomlin. I'd put him around #14-#21 Range. Looking at his overall body of work and his track record, he's subpar.

do all those coaches you have ranked ahead of Tomlin have a Super Bowl victory?

[Edman]

do all those coaches you have ranked ahead of Tomlin have a Super Bowl victory?

I attribute XLIII to the leadership of the Veteran core on the Steelers, who had already won a Super Bowl years prior to Tomlin's arrival. All Mike Tomlin had to do was not fuck it up. Tomlin's issues started to show itself the following year, where the Steelers collapsed after a 6-2 start, losing to some crappy teams in the downfall. Late season collapses have been a trend under Tomlin.

A.K.A: "Tomlin won with Bill Cowher's Players."

Once that core gone and retired, Tomlin has been nowhere near as successful and regressed in several aspects. A Defensive-head coach, but the Steelers D has been mediocre at best for years now. Infamously crashing and burning at home to Blake Bortles. Defensive development has been so awful that they are forced to sign journeymen like Joe Haden, Coty Sensabaugh, and Steven Nelson in order to not have the secondary not be a complete dumpster fire. The draft failures of Jarvis Jones, Bud Dupree, and Artie Burns' sharp regression to Antwan Blake-levels are major stains.

This is why I believe Mike Tomlin to be a subpar coach.

[hawaiiansteeler]

I attribute XLIII to the leadership of the Veteran core on the Steelers, who had already won a Super Bowl years prior to Tomlin's arrival. All Mike Tomlin had to do was not fuck it up.

you mean the team that went 8-8 Cowher's last year that Tomlin inherited?

[GoSlash27]

Cue the ridiculous notions claiming Tomlin is somehow the 2nd best head coach in the league with people using only the shortcomings of head coaches not named Bellichick to make the argument

Not saying I agree or disagree with the notion, but "using only the shortcomings of head coaches not named Bellichick" would be an entirely sensible way to make the argument.

[polamalubeast]

you mean the team that went 8-8 Cowher's last year that Tomlin inherited?

This core player had already had a 15-1 season and a super bowl the year after.

Tomlin was perhaps in the discussion as the second best coach in his career, but not right now ... He could be out of the top 10 with another disappointing season.

[pczach]

This core player had already had a 15-1 season and a super bowl the year after.

Tomlin was perhaps in the discussion as the second best coach in his career, but not right now ... He could be out of the top 10 with another disappointing season.


So where does he get slotted if the team goes 12-4 this year and gets to the Super Bowl?

[Six Rings]

do all those coaches you have ranked ahead of Tomlin have a Super Bowl victory?

None of them had a stacked roster of Bill Cowher players who had just won the super bowl either.

Tomlin's best coaching happened with Cowher's players. As they slowly retired, our playoff celebrations became thin. Tomlin is just 3-6 in his last 9 playoff appearances...let that sink in for a while.

[tube517]

Another thread to ignite the Cowher vs Tomlin debate. Wake me up when it's September. :rolleyes:

[Six Rings]

Another thread to ignite the Cowher vs Tomlin debate. Wake me up when it's September. :rolleyes:

Placing Cowher who was 5-1 with Ben in the playoffs, and also owns a playoff win over one Bill Bellichick is a complement to Tomlin.


Does anyone remember how Barry Switzer did with Jimmy Johnson players? Or George Seifert did with Bill Walsh's players. Same thing. No one calls either great coaches do they?


Cowher was 10-6 to 11-5 with guys like Tomzack, Stewart, Graham, and Miller at QB. Amazing as his margin of error with these jokers was thin. The loss of O'Donnell probably cost us another super bowl appearance. Not that Neil was great he just wasn't a turnover machine and could pass when needed. If Tomlin had to start those guys at QB, he's let go on his first contract.

[pczach]

None of them had a stacked roster of Bill Cowher players who had just won the super bowl either.

Tomlin's best coaching happened with Cowher's players. As they slowly retired, our playoff celebrations became thin. Tomlin is just 3-6 in his last 9 super bowl appearances...let that sink in for a while.



I had no idea Tomlin is only 3-6 in his last 9 Super Bowl appearances.

:sofunny:

Fire his ass right now!

[st33lersguy]

Not saying I agree or disagree with the notion, but "using only the shortcomings of head coaches not named Bellichick" would be an entirely sensible way to make the argument.

Problem is you can't tear down other coaches to build up your own. Other than "he never had a losing season" (with a franchise QB) the only argumetns I ever hear in favor of Tomlin is to tear down the other head coaches (and Bill Cowher). That's not a convincing argument

[st33lersguy]

Maybe in 2008 or 2010, you could call him no. 2, but as it stands now, 2019, what has he done since 2010, other than piss away easy games and woefully underperform in the postseason. What has he done in the last 2 years other than go 0-1 in the postseason and lose a home playoff game to an NFL draft bust while fielding a combined 18 pro bowlers in a conference that has been a total joke.

[Six Rings]

I had no idea Tomlin is only 3-6 in his last 9 Super Bowl appearances.

:sofunny:

Fire his ass right now!



Ha ha, reread it. 3-6 in his last playoff appearances, then mix in an epic collapse last season not to make the playoffs. Are you okay with that as a fan? Perhaps our standards are different.

[Born2Steel]

This is just too funny. 2018 ranked him at 8. Let that sink in. How screwed up was the 2018 season? And he was still top 10. Factor in number 3 ranking the year before and Tomlin is in the top 5 of coaches conversation based on average ranking. Tomlin is and has been a great coach for the Steelers. I believe you will see him continue to be a great coach for the Steelers.

[pczach]

Ha ha, reread it. 3-6 in his last playoff appearances, then mix in an epic collapse last season not to make the playoffs. Are you okay with that as a fan? Perhaps our standards are different.


I believe that this year is a big year for Tomlin. He needs to get this team on track and show improvement.

If the team implodes this year, I would be ok with letting Tomlin go.

If the team has a very successful season, he will have proven that he is a good coach even to the doubters if they use their own parameters as a guide. If he isn't a good coach, he should have no chance at having a good season next year, right? The claims of "He doesn't have control of the team." "He only won with Cowher's players." "They don't develop players." "His teams don't get better." are all things that could get answered this season. If he does succeed, it will be directly against all the claims of his incompetence by the people that say he sucks.

Do you agree with my last statement?

[Born2Steel]

I believe that this year is a big year for Tomlin. He needs to get this team on track and show improvement.

If the team implodes this year, I would be ok with letting Tomlin go.

If the team has a very successful season, he will have proven that he is a good coach even to the doubters if they use their own parameters as a guide. If he isn't a good coach, he should have no chance at having a good season next year, right? The claims of "He doesn't have control of the team." "He only won with Cowher's players." "They don't develop players." "His teams don't get better." are all things that could get answered this season. If he does succeed, it will be directly against all the claims of his incompetence by the people that say he sucks.

Do you agree with my last statement?

Ben will have to retire and Tomlin will need to win back to back SBs with Rudolph in order for these Jokers to give Tomlin any credit. And even then it will be because of luck. The 'crapfest' that was last season and Tomlin gets ranked 8th out of 32 without making the playoffs? That speaks volumes about the respect the league has for our coach. These guys either simply don't get it or just like to argue.

[polamalubeast]

So where does he get slotted if the team goes 12-4 this year and gets to the Super Bowl?

He will go up course....It's going to be a big year for Tomlin like you said in post number 20.

[teegre]

Is that #8 in the AP Poll?... or, the Coaches’ Poll???

[pczach]

Is that #8 in the AP Poll?... or, the Coaches’ Poll???


The stripper pole.....

[smokin3000gt]

So where does he get slotted if the team goes 12-4 this year and gets to the Super Bowl?

Anything short of Tomlin putting on a helmet and throwing himself the ball for a game winning touchdown in the last 2 minutes and he'd still be 32nd by some on this board. Even with a SB victory the conversation will be 'they won despite of Tomlin', 'there is still a Cowher player on the roster', 'we didn't win, the other team handed it to us', 'imagine the score if we had a new coach'. Also 4 losses in unacceptable.

[Born2Steel]

Is that #8 in the AP Poll?... or, the Coaches’ Poll???


I have always loved 'The Sporting News'. For BASEBALL. Used to anticipate that baseball preview edition with all the team write-ups and offseason moves and it would even go so in-depth to speculate on tripleA players to watch. Big newspaper sized, full color baseball preview edition of 'The Sporting News'. How many years has THAT been now?

On a more serious note though.....How many coaches with 10+ years at the same place have Tomlin's regular season .654 win %, playoff .533 win %, and are being called a BAD coach? I'm talking a "fire him" bad coach. The 'Fire Tomlin' conversation is just crazy talk. Never having had a losing season is ammunition for why he should be fired for some on here. It's not like he goes 8-8 every season and that makes him good enough, it's that in 11 seasons he has never finished below 8-8 that makes him worth keeping.

Now TSN puts out a ranking on NFL HCs and Tomlin lands at #8 after all the Bell stuff the season started with, The AB stuff the season ended with, missed the playoffs and is still a top 10 HC by TSN standards. Just WOW! You just gotta fire a coach like that. It's honestly baffling to me.

But to answer your question, it's the coaches poll and Tomlin voted 100 times for himself.

[polamalubeast]

I have always loved 'The Sporting News'. For BASEBALL. Used to anticipate that baseball preview edition with all the team write-ups and offseason moves and it would even go so in-depth to speculate on tripleA players to watch. Big newspaper sized, full color baseball preview edition of 'The Sporting News'. How many years has THAT been now?

On a more serious note though.....How many coaches with 10+ years at the same place have Tomlin's regular season .654 win %, playoff .533 win %, and are being called a BAD coach? I'm talking a "fire him" bad coach. The 'Fire Tomlin' conversation is just crazy talk. Never having had a losing season is ammunition for why he should be fired for some on here. It's not like he goes 8-8 every season and that makes him good enough, it's that in 11 seasons he has never finished below 8-8 that makes him worth keeping.

Now TSN puts out a ranking on NFL HCs and Tomlin lands at #8 after all the Bell stuff the season started with, The AB stuff the season ended with, missed the playoffs and is still a top 10 HC by TSN standards. Just WOW! You just gotta fire a coach like that. It's honestly baffling to me.

But to answer your question, it's the coaches poll and Tomlin voted 100 times for himself.

We need to look at the context, not just about the stats

Tomlin is not a bad coach, but he is also not a great coach for now .... The culture has to be better, same for the discipline ... the focus for the team has to be better too and Tomlin is a defensive coach and our defense has been far from special in the last few years, especially in the big moment.

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Anything short of Tomlin putting on a helmet and throwing himself the ball for a game winning touchdown in the last 2 minutes and he'd still be 32nd by some on this board. Even with a SB victory the conversation will be 'they won despite of Tomlin', 'there is still a Cowher player on the roster', 'we didn't win, the other team handed it to us', 'imagine the score if we had a new coach'. Also 4 losses in unacceptable.

What about being close at least to win an AFC title game ..... Only one AFC title game in the last 8 years and the steelers have not been close in this game .... that's not acceptable especially with the talent that the steelers had!

I can live with a loss like in 2010 and 2015 but not for 2011 and 2017.

[Born2Steel]

We need to look at the context, not just about the stats

Tomlin is not a bad coach, but he is also not a great coach for now .... The culture has to be better, same for the discipline ... the focus for the team has to be better too and Tomlin is a defensive coach and our defense has been far from special in the last few years, especially in the big moment.

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What about being close at least to win an AFC title game ..... Only one AFC title game in the last 8 years and the steelers have not been close in this game .... that's not acceptable especially with the talent that the steelers had!

I can live with a loss like in 2010 and 2015 but not for 2011 and 2017.

For the past 11 years Tomlin has been a HC, not a DC or OC or STC. He's been the HC of the Steelers for 11 seasons. THAT IS THE CONTEXT. In that time he has never had a losing season(8 seasons with double digit win totals, including 4 of the last 5 and 9 wins last season), been to 2 SBs, won the division 6 times and came in 2nd in the division 4 times. 15 playoff games record is 8-7. That is the context of his career as the Steelers HC. Is there room for improvement? Of course there is. But you don't fire a coach because he could do some things better or differently, with his track record.

[polamalubeast]

For the past 11 years Tomlin has been a HC, not a DC or OC or STC. He's been the HC of the Steelers for 11 seasons. THAT IS THE CONTEXT. In that time he has never had a losing season(8 seasons with double digit win totals, including 4 of the last 5 and 9 wins last season), been to 2 SBs, won the division 6 times and came in 2nd in the division 4 times. 15 playoff games record is 8-7. That is the context of his career as the Steelers HC. Is there room for improvement? Of course there is. But you don't fire a coach because he could do some things better or differently, with his track record.

If Tomlin is not responsible for the defense or anything else, he's just a cheerleader like Bradshaw already said!

The Stats have never been a problem for the steelers .... The problem is that we have not been close to winning something big since 2011 despite all the talent.

[Mojouw]

If Tomlin is not responsible for the defense or anything else, he's just a cheerleader like Bradshaw already said!

The Stats have never been a problem for the steelers .... The problem is that we have not been close to winning something big since 2011 despite all the talent.

There are 30 teams that say that every season. Again, this is a conversation with no agreed upon evaluation criteria. Take player development. What does it look like compared to other teams that annually draft in the 20's?

[polamalubeast]

There are 30 teams that say that every season. Again, this is a conversation with no agreed upon evaluation criteria. Take player development. What does it look like compared to other teams that annually draft in the 20's?

Forget the super bowl for a moment, that's not it I talk.

I mean, only 1 AFC title game since 2011 and the game that the steelers have been, they have not been close!

17 teams in the NFL have been at least once in the AFC or NFC title game in this period.....so do not say it's 30 teams that can say the same thing(Doing little with the talent that the steelers had), since it's not true!

And 3 of our playoffs loss in this period was against a team with a record of 10-6 or worse .... It's not so like the competition was huge for the steelers as it was the case for a team like the Saints when they were in.

His reasons are why we're frustrated!

[Shoes]

Well, Tomlin said "We all talk too much. We really do. It's about talking less, it's about doing more". Let's see if he zips it shut and makes it happen.

[Mojouw]

Forget the super bowl for a moment, that's not it I talk.

I mean, only 1 AFC title game since 2011 and the game that the steelers have been, they have not been close!

17 teams in the NFL have been at least once in the AFC or NFC title game in this period.....so do not say it's 30 teams that can say the same thing(Doing little with the talent that the steelers had), since it's not true!

And 3 of our playoffs loss in this period was against a team with a record of 10-6 or worse .... It's not so like the competition was huge for the steelers as it was the case for a team like the Saints when they were in.

His reasons are why we're frustrated!

So if only half the league is making Championship games in the last 8 years and the Steelers are one of them, does that make them good or bad? I also suspect that it is less than 17 teams due to repeat participants.

So where is the line with playoff loses? 11-5? 14-2? Whatever makes each fan not feel icky?

Also what juggernauts have the Saints been annually losing to? The Vikings? The Falcons? Or it is embarrassing for the Steelers to lose to the Jags but not for the Saints to lose to the Vikings?

Take Andy Reid. Prior to last season he had all the criticisms of Tomlin to an even bigger degree. Then he pulled off an offensive season for the ages. Now he's a genius. The warts are all still there but now everyone just feels better. Defense is still a severe question mark. Hunt and Hill are still running amok. The defensive players still revolted and got the DC canned for having terrible plans. Reid still makes bizarre clock and timeout decisions - even more so than Tomlin!

Long story short, using the same metrics, Reid should be in line for the same hot seat as Tomlin. But because people feel better, he isn't?

[polamalubeast]

So if only half the league is making Championship games in the last 8 years and the Steelers are one of them, does that make them good or bad? I also suspect that it is less than 17 teams due to repeat participants.

So where is the line with playoff loses? 11-5? 14-2? Whatever makes each fan not feel icky?

Also what juggernauts have the Saints been annually losing to? The Vikings? The Falcons? Or it is embarrassing for the Steelers to lose to the Jags but not for the Saints to lose to the Vikings?

Take Andy Reid. Prior to last season he had all the criticisms of Tomlin to an even bigger degree. Then he pulled off an offensive season for the ages. Now he's a genius. The warts are all still there but now everyone just feels better. Defense is still a severe question mark. Hunt and Hill are still running amok. The defensive players still revolted and got the DC canned for having terrible plans. Reid still makes bizarre clock and timeout decisions - even more so than Tomlin!

Long story short, using the same metrics, Reid should be in line for the same hot seat as Tomlin. But because people feel better, he isn't?

The Saints had lost on a miracle against the 13-3 Vikings in 2017 ... it was also on the road.

Andy Reid is a great offensive coach .... All QB Reid has had in his career, they had a very good season whether this Alex Smith, Donavan McNabb Patrick Mahommes or even Michael Vick was a MVP candidate in one season, which was a miracle!

Even QB backups like Jeff Garcia at the end of his career or A.J Feeley have been good under Andy Reid. He's great at developing QB.

When Reid had a top 10 QB, he was often in the title game .... 6 times to be exact .... Reid also made the right decision to fire Sutton after the AFC title game ... Tomlin should have done the same thing after the 2016 AFC title game against the pats with Butler, since at least the chiefs were still in the game after 3 quarters even if the chiefs had only 7 points after 3 quarters ... With Butler, the chiefs would have been OUT of the game at halftime!

Again this was not good game for the chiefs defense, but not bad as the steelers in 2016 ... Tomlin is too loyal with his assistant whether it's Danny Smith, Keith Butler or Todd Haley ..... No reason Butler still there after the loss of 45-42 against Bortles.

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So if only half the league is making Championship games in the last 8 years and the Steelers are one of them, does that make them good or bad? I also suspect that it is less than 17 teams due to repeat participants.

Average at best

[Mojouw]

The Saints had lost on a miracle against the 13-3 Vikings in 2017 ... it was also on the road.

Andy Reid is a great offensive coach .... All QB Reid has had in his career, they had a very good season whether this Alex Smith, Donavan McNabb Patrick Mahommes or even Michael Vick was a MVP candidate in one season, which was a miracle!

Even QB backups like Jeff Garcia at the end of his career or A.J Feeley have been good under Andy Reid. He's great at developing QB.

When Reid had a top 10 QB, he was often in the title game .... 6 times to be exact .... Reid also made the right decision to fire Sutton after the AFC title game ... Tomlin should have done the same thing after the 2016 AFC title game against the pats with Butler, since at least the chiefs were still in the game after 3 quarters even if the chiefs had only 7 points after 3 quarters ... With Butler, the chiefs would have been OUT of the game at halftime!

Again this was not good game for the chiefs defense, but not bad as the steelers in 2016 ... Tomlin is too loyal with his assistant whether it's Danny Smith, Keith Butler or Todd Haley ..... No reason Butler still there after the loss of 45-42 against Bortles.

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Average at best

So your argument is mostly about how you feel after each season? Because you are simply making a series of subjective evaluations that sound like they are not, but each posts ends with how a loss made you feel.
Between 2011-18, 11 different teams have made the NFC championship game and 7 different AFC teams have.

I kinda feel like that says Tomlin is better than average.

HOnestly, it isn’t that I am just super pro-Tomlin. It is more that I am super against just spitting out factoids without any context. X coach is only Y against teams with a winning record. Okay. That sounds bad. But what are other coaches records in the same situation? The Steelers have lost x playoff games in the last y years. Again, what are some other comparable records from the rest of the league?

IN the NFL we have only the other teams to compare to. Not our expectations. Because each franchises fan base expects to win. But only one franchise does that each year. So there are always 31 frustrated and disappointed fan bases.

[st33lersguy]

"But Tomlin never had a losing season, he's a great coach."

Dan Bylsma made the playoffs every year as head coach of the Penguins. In fact, he had home ice in round 1 of the playoffs, every year he was head coach. Yet had the PEnguins organization used that logic to keep him around to this day, the Pens never would have won back-back Stanley Cup Championships in 15-16 and 16-17

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I mean, only 1 AFC title game since 2011 and the game that the steelers have been, they have not been close!



And that year the Steelers benefited from a weak playoff field. They first had the 2016 Dolphins who may be the worst 10-6 team in NFL history, what was basically a 6-10 team who padded their win total with one possession victories against NFL dregs

Then in the divisional round, they lucked out by not having to play the Raiders with Derek Carr having a career year following his injury. They instead got to play Alex Check-down Smith. They have to play Carr the way he was playing in '16 they would have lost in the divisional round (let's remember Tomlin can't beat even awful Raiders teams in Oakland)

[polamalubeast]

"But Tomlin never had a losing season, he's a great coach."

Dan Bylsma made the playoffs every year as head coach of the Penguins. In fact, he had home ice in round 1 of the playoffs, every year he was head coach. Yet had the PEnguins organization used that logic to keep him around to this day, the Pens never would have won back-back Stanley Cup Championships in 15-16 and 16-17

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And that year the Steelers benefited from a weak playoff field. They first had the 2016 Dolphins who may be the worst 10-6 team in NFL history, what was basically a 6-10 team who padded their win total with one possession victories against NFL dregs

Then in the divisional round, they lucked out by not having to play the Raiders with Derek Carr having a career year following his injury. They instead got to play Alex Check-down Smith. They have to play Carr the way he was playing in '16 they would have lost in the divisional round (let's remember Tomlin can't beat even awful Raiders teams in Oakland)

The steelers were closer to having 0 playoff win than having 4 playoffs win since 2011.I mean, if the ravens players make the tackle on Brown in 2016 in week 16, no playoff for the steelers.

Lately I also compare Tomlin to Bylsma ... They won a championship early in their career, but after that was disappointing .... One conference final for the pens in the next 5 years under Bylsma with Crosby and Malkin in 4 in his years and the year they were in the conference final they scored only 2 goals in 4 games !!!!!

Losing is one thing, but the way to lose is another!

[Edman]

In 2015, in a must-win game in Baltimore against Ryan Mallet, the Steelers totally shit the bed in a 20-17 loss, and were a Ryan Fitzpatrick meltdown in Buffalo away from missing the postseason. In the wildcard game, the Bengals' catastrophic meltdown rescued the Steelers from falling flat on their face against AJ McCarron. They choke in Denver against a dead-armed Peyton Manning.

in 2016, they beat a weak Dolphins team with Matt Moore and beat Alex Checkdown Smith by not scoring a single touchdown. Bell's injury doomed them in New England. The Patriots totally shit all over them. Ben proceeds to shit on the receivers after the AFC Title game, even though throughout those playoffs, he was totally mediocre.

In 2017, the Steelers go in arrogant against a Jacksonville team whom kicked their ass earlier in the year. Le'veon Bell doesn't even show up for practice before the game. They were once again woefully unprepared as they fell behind 28-7 and never tied the game or had the lead. Steelers end 2017 embarrassed by Blake Bortles in a shootout on Heinz Field despite having all of the B's and a Pro-Bowl Offensive Line. Blake Bortles is a draft bust and currently unemployed.

2018 speaks for itself.

This is Mike Tomlin's MO. Ill-prepared, Arrogant, Undisciplined, Underachievement. He is not a good head coach.

[Born2Steel]

You anti-Tomlin guys are so clueless. (Seriously you guys are clueless)Compared to Bylsma? Why not the Shaq/Penny Magic? Why not the Bobby Cox Braves? How about those Levy Bills teams, 4 SBs in a row and they couldn't even win 1? That coach must REALLY suck! BUT....following the AB catch rationale, what if that kick went through? Then Parcells would be the idiot coach right? Those Saints teams that lost to the Vikes in the last minute, coach's fault. Lost to the Rams in OT the very next year, coach's fault.

What did Tomlin do as the HC of the Steelers is how you compare him. 11 SEASONS, 2 SB appearances, 8 double digit win seasons(2-9 win seasons), 8 times in the playoffs(15 games with a 8-7 record), 6 time division champs, 4 time division runner up, .654 reg season win%, and .533 playoff win%. What other NFL coach even compares to this over 11 SEASONS? It's a very short list.

[Mojouw]

You anti-Tomlin guys are so clueless. (Seriously you guys are clueless)Compared to Bylsma? Why not the Shaq/Penny Magic? Why not the Bobby Cox Braves? How about those Levy Bills teams, 4 SBs in a row and they couldn't even win 1? That coach must REALLY suck! BUT....following the AB catch rationale, what if that kick went through? Then Parcells would be the idiot coach right? Those Saints teams that lost to the Vikes in the last minute, coach's fault. Lost to the Rams in OT the very next year, coach's fault.

What did Tomlin do as the HC of the Steelers is how you compare him. 11 SEASONS, 2 SB appearances, 8 double digit win seasons(2-9 win seasons), 8 times in the playoffs(15 games with a 8-7 record), 6 time division champs, 4 time division runner up, .654 reg season win%, and .533 playoff win%. What other NFL coach even compares to this over 11 SEASONS? It's a very short list.

Those are all dong wins with Cowher's players. Don't count.

[Born2Steel]

Those are all dong wins with Cowher's players. Don't count.

I see your 'dong wins' and raise you a 'Cowher never wanted Ben'.

[polamalubeast]

What did Tomlin do as the HC of the Steelers is how you compare him. 11 SEASONS, 2 SB appearances, 8 double digit win seasons(2-9 win seasons), 8 times in the playoffs(15 games with a 8-7 record), 6 time division champs, 4 time division runner up, .654 reg season win%, and .533 playoff win%. What other NFL coach even compares to this over 11 SEASONS? It's a very short list.

As I said, the stats are not my problem with Tomlin ... The steelers have always had good stats, so ...


You anti-Tomlin guys are so clueless. (Seriously you guys are clueless)Compared to Bylsma? Why not the Shaq/Penny Magic? Why not the Bobby Cox Braves? How about those Levy Bills teams, 4 SBs in a row and they couldn't even win 1? That coach must REALLY suck! BUT....following the AB catch rationale, what if that kick went through? Then Parcells would be the idiot coach right? Those Saints teams that lost to the Vikes in the last minute, coach's fault. Lost to the Rams in OT the very next year, coach's fault.




For the comparison of the other coach, each situation is different

Like the magic, Shaq stayed with Orlando only 4 seasons, but yes their coach was horrible

The Braves, only one championship was disappointing, but they were in the world series 5 times, 2 times they lost against the dynasty of the New York Yankees and another time, in 1991 they lost in 7 games in a classic series who could easily won by either sides

Marv Levy ... if at least their kicker would have make his kick, the bills would have at least one ring ... the other 3 was against all-time great team and not against Jacksonville Jaguars! ... At least the bills were in the super bowl!

The saints lost to four 13-3 teams in this decade and 3 of his games, the saints could have easily won, but against the 49ers, Alex Smith played his game of his life at the end of the game, against the Vikings, it was on a miracle and against the rams were on a controversial non-call

The comparison with Bylsma is that the pens were also very disappointing in the playoffs ..... in 2010, it was a loss against a very weak Habs team, 2011, I will give a pass on Bylsma since Crosby and Malkin was injured .... 2012, the flyers scored a million goal in this series, it was ridiculous, 2013 2 goals in 4 games against the Bruins and 2014, they had a 3-1 lead against the Rangers before losing.

A loss is always disappointing, but the ways you lose and the teams against you lose is important when you evaluate a team, a player or a coach.

[Mojouw]

As I said, the stats are not my problem with Tomlin ... The steelers have always had good stats, so ...




For the comparison of the other coach, each situation is different

Like the magic, Shaq stayed with Orlando only 4 seasons, but yes their coach was horrible

The Braves, only one championship was disappointing, but they were in the world series 5 times, 2 times they lost against the dynasty of the New York Yankees and another time, in 1991 they lost in 7 games in a classic series who could easily won by either sides

Marv Levy ... if at least their kicker would have make his kick, the bills would have at least one ring ... the other 3 was against all-time great team and not against Jacksonville Jaguars! ... At least the bills were in the super bowl!

The saints lost to four 13-3 teams in this decade and 3 of his games, the saints could have easily won, but against the 49ers, Alex Smith played his game of his life at the end of the game, against the Vikings, it was on a miracle and against the rams were on a controversial non-call

The comparison with Bylsma is that the pens were also very disappointing in the playoffs ..... in 2010, it was a loss against a very weak Habs team, 2011, I will give a pass on Bylsma since Crosby and Malkin was injured .... 2012, the flyers scored a million goal in this series, it was ridiculous, 2013 2 goals in 4 games against the Bruins and 2014, they had a 3-1 lead against the Rangers before losing.

A loss is always disappointing, but the ways you lose and the teams against you lose is important when you evaluate a team, a player or a coach.

So Marv Levys kicker choking is okay but Tomlins kicker choking for a whole season means he is a bad coach?

Like you understand that are being inconsistent in order to fit data and evidence to predetermined conclusions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mojouw]

The 2017 team won close games at an unsustainable rate. Was that a good team or a bad team?

The 2018 team lost close games at an unbelievable rate. Good or bad team?

I see both as 10-6 teams. One got lucky slot. One got unlucky a ton.

So what's that mean for coaching? No idea.

[Born2Steel]

As I said, the stats are not my problem with Tomlin ... The steelers have always had good stats, so ...




For the comparison of the other coach, each situation is different

Like the magic, Shaq stayed with Orlando only 4 seasons, but yes their coach was horrible

The Braves, only one championship was disappointing, but they were in the world series 5 times, 2 times they lost against the dynasty of the New York Yankees and another time, in 1991 they lost in 7 games in a classic series who could easily won by either sides

Marv Levy ... if at least their kicker would have make his kick, the bills would have at least one ring ... the other 3 was against all-time great team and not against Jacksonville Jaguars! ... At least the bills were in the super bowl!

The saints lost to four 13-3 teams in this decade and 3 of his games, the saints could have easily won, but against the 49ers, Alex Smith played his game of his life at the end of the game, against the Vikings, it was on a miracle and against the rams were on a controversial non-call

The comparison with Bylsma is that the pens were also very disappointing in the playoffs ..... in 2010, it was a loss against a very weak Habs team, 2011, I will give a pass on Bylsma since Crosby and Malkin was injured .... 2012, the flyers scored a million goal in this series, it was ridiculous, 2013 2 goals in 4 games against the Bruins and 2014, they had a 3-1 lead against the Rangers before losing.

A loss is always disappointing, but the ways you lose and the teams against you lose is important when you evaluate a team, a player or a coach.

The Saints lost to the Vikings because of a poor tackle attempt not a miracle. Coaches teach tackling.

The Saints lost to the Rams because they didn't run the clock out with a chance to win with a FG in regulation. Coaches should have ran the ball.

I covered the Bills missing the kick part already.

The Magic/Braves point is it is not football. This was because of the terrible Bylsma comparison, again not football.

Like I posted before...clueless. This is a continuing conversation not just random individual posts. Keep up with the thread.

- - - Updated - - -

Show me the list of head coaches that have been better than Tomlin over 11 seasons. Otherwise I'm done with this.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Show me the list of head coaches that have been better than Tomlin over 11 seasons. Otherwise I'm done with this.

rankings of NFL head coaches are always so subjective it's hard to take them seriously....

[Born2Steel]

rankings of NFL head coaches are always so subjective it's hard to take them seriously....

This is a NFL coach ranking thread.....

[polamalubeast]

The 2017 team won close games at an unsustainable rate. Was that a good team or a bad team?

The 2018 team lost close games at an unbelievable rate. Good or bad team?

I see both as 10-6 teams. One got lucky slot. One got unlucky a ton.

So what's that mean for coaching? No idea.

I do not think the steelers were unlucky in 2018 ..... the 6 teams that made the playoffs in the AFC, they all had a better points differentials by a good margin than the steelers.

[DesertSteel]

#8 is about right.

[polamalubeast]

14 different coaches in the NFL have at least 3 playoffs win since 2011 .... and it's not every one of his coaches who have been the head coach in each season.

And I know that many HCs have done more with less what Tomlin had in the last few years .... It's not so like the steelers were a dumpster fire or he had Alex Smith as QB! .. To say that he is the second best coach is ridiculous

[Born2Steel]

#8 is about right.

I think Tomlin should have finished ahead of Pederson, Carroll, and Reid. But #8 is fair for 2018.

- - - Updated - - -


14 different coaches in the NFL have at least 3 playoffs win since 2011 .... and it's not every one of his coaches who have been the head coach in each season.

And I know that many HCs have done more with less what Tomlin had in the last few years .... It's not so like the steelers were a dumpster fire or he had Alex Smith as QB! .. To say that he is the second best coach is ridiculous

To say Tomlin is not the 2nd best HC is ridiculous.

[Mojouw]

You know. Too bad there isn't an almost universally agreed upon method for posing a question, developing data, and then evaluating whether or not your original proposition was validated or falsified.

Oh. Wait. There. Is. The scientific method -- because actually figuring things out is better than making shit up.

https://explorable.com/sites/default/files/scientific-method.png

So it is pretty easy in this case.

Formulate a test hypothesis: Mike Tomlin is NOT one of the 10 most successful coaches in the National Football League over the last decade.
Determine the parameters for evaluation (winning %, playoff success, challenges won, AFC Championship game apppearances, Polamalubeast's feelings at the end of the season, whatever) and define them.
Select a control group of equivalent coaches (say Sean Payton, Andy Reid, Pete Carroll, and Harbaugh).
Make a table of all the factors from above being used for evaluation. Rank each coach relative to the others.
Determine if your data set validates or invalidates your original test hypothesis.

Or we could just keep arguing over random factoids from wildly different evaluation perspectives forever.

- - - Updated - - -


I do not think the steelers were unlucky in 2018 ..... the 6 teams that made the playoffs in the AFC, they all had a better points differentials by a good margin than the steelers.

I mean if Boswell nailing every last second kick in 2017 to steal multiple wins and then missing all of the same kicks 12 months later isn't luck --- I would like to know what it is.

[polamalubeast]

I mean if Boswell nailing every last second kick in 2017 to steal multiple wins and then missing all of the same kicks 12 months later isn't luck --- I would like to know what it is.


No doubt Boswell was bad and I do not understand why the steelers did not bring a better kicker as competition ..... But two of the games that Boswell has cost (Cleveland and Oakland ... maybe I forget another one if so, I'm sorry) was games where the steelers were huge favorite, but the steelers needed their kicker to win or force the overtime ..... it was against a very bad team

Yes he was one of the reasons why the steelers missed the playoffs, but not the only reason .....same for the 1990 Bills,their kicker is one of the reason for their loss but not the only reason they have lost the SB.

[Born2Steel]

You know. Too bad there isn't an almost universally agreed upon method for posing a question, developing data, and then evaluating whether or not your original proposition was validated or falsified.

Oh. Wait. There. Is. The scientific method -- because actually figuring things out is better than making shit up.

https://explorable.com/sites/default/files/scientific-method.png

So it is pretty easy in this case.

Formulate a test hypothesis: Mike Tomlin is NOT one of the 10 most successful coaches in the National Football League over the last decade.
Determine the parameters for evaluation (winning %, playoff success, challenges won, AFC Championship game apppearances, Polamalubeast's feelings at the end of the season, whatever) and define them.
Select a control group of equivalent coaches (say Sean Payton, Andy Reid, Pete Carroll, and Harbaugh).
Make a table of all the factors from above being used for evaluation. Rank each coach relative to the others.
Determine if your data set validates or invalidates your original test hypothesis.

Or we could just keep arguing over random factoids from wildly different evaluation perspectives forever.

- - - Updated - - -



I mean if Boswell nailing every last second kick in 2017 to steal multiple wins and then missing all of the same kicks 12 months later isn't luck --- I would like to know what it is.


Here's the problem with this entire discussion on Tomlin's legacy. APPARENTLY...You can't use team stats. You can't use his win/loss record. You can't use longevity or consistency. Tomlin doesn't draft well yet his players win despite his coaching, but then he has too much talent and should win every game. It's just constantly shifting sand and nothing based on actual data.

Now, I agree Tomlin was out-coached by a few names on the 2018 list that is the basis for this thread. My list would be as follows:
1. Bill Beticheat- Won another Superbowl
2. Sean McVay- Made the Superbowl
3. Sean Payton- IMO had a better chance to win the Superbowl than the 2 participants.
4. John Harbaugh- Was to be fired at one point during the season and still won the division in comeback style.
5. Mike Tomlin- Even with all the on-field and off-field issues had the Steelers in contention at the end. But I feel #8 in the article is a respectable rank.

Let me take this time to wish all you knuckleheads, those I agree and disagree with, a very Happy Memorial Day tomorrow.

[Six Rings]

If we are playing look at what happened, try this had on for size. Tomlin is but 3-6 in his last nine playoff games. This is a hard fact that is amplified by the Steelers were the better team for most of these games. However, two Tomlin's this playoff wins came vs. the Miami Dolphins, who were staring a backup QB at Heinz field, and the other happened when Cincinnati self-destructed late in the game with penalties, and gave it to us. You could say things went out way.

Head coaches SHOULD NOT be graded on their team record alone. They should be rated on the talent they have, and whether they over or underachieve with it. Have the Steelers over or underachieved in the past 10 years? I's an open question to the board.

[st33lersguy]

So we are adamant Tomlin ISN'T Dan Bylsma. What is different between Tomlin and Bylsma's Penguins career other than Tomlin added a conference championship game before his string of underperforming in the postseason which can be offset by Bylsma never missing the postseason, and that the Rooney's have not run out of patience with Tomlin? Seriously what makes Tomlin better than Bylsma and closer to Bobby Cox even though Cox has 3 more pennants than Tomlin has conference titles

[polamalubeast]

If we are playing look at what happened, try this had on for size. Tomlin is but 3-6 in his last nine playoff games. This is a hard fact that is amplified by the Steelers were the better team for most of these games. However, two Tomlin's this playoff wins came vs. the Miami Dolphins, who were staring a backup QB at Heinz field, and the other happened when Cincinnati self-destructed late in the game with penalties, and gave it to us. You could say things went out way.

Head coaches SHOULD NOT be graded on their team record alone. They should be rated on the talent they have, and whether they over or underachieve with it. Have the Steelers over or underachieved in the past 10 years? I's an open question to the board.

This is my point

[Mojouw]

Here's the problem with this entire discussion on Tomlin's legacy. APPARENTLY...You can't use team stats. You can't use his win/loss record. You can't use longevity or consistency. Tomlin doesn't draft well yet his players win despite his coaching, but then he has too much talent and should win every game. It's just constantly shifting sand and nothing based on actual data.

Now, I agree Tomlin was out-coached by a few names on the 2018 list that is the basis for this thread. My list would be as follows:
1. Bill Beticheat- Won another Superbowl
2. Sean McVay- Made the Superbowl
3. Sean Payton- IMO had a better chance to win the Superbowl than the 2 participants.
4. John Harbaugh- Was to be fired at one point during the season and still won the division in comeback style.
5. Mike Tomlin- Even with all the on-field and off-field issues had the Steelers in contention at the end. But I feel #8 in the article is a respectable rank.

Let me take this time to wish all you knuckleheads, those I agree and disagree with, a very Happy Memorial Day tomorrow.

I wish everyone well also. But notice how no one wants to attempt to define anything concrete? Weird.

[Born2Steel]

So we are adamant Tomlin ISN'T Dan Bylsma. What is different from him other than Tomlin added a conference championship game before his string of underperforming in the postseason which can be offset by Bylsma never missing the postseason, and that the Rooney's have not run out of patience with Tomlin? Seriously what makes Tomlin better than Bylsma and closer to Bobby Cox even though Cox has 3 more pennants than Tomlin has conference titles

1. Tomlin has been a successful NFL HC for 12 consecutive seasons.
2. Bylsma has never been an NFL HC

- - - Updated - - -


If we are playing look at what happened, try this had on for size. Tomlin is but 3-6 in his last nine playoff games. This is a hard fact that is amplified by the Steelers were the better team for most of these games. However, two Tomlin's this playoff wins came vs. the Miami Dolphins, who were staring a backup QB at Heinz field, and the other happened when Cincinnati self-destructed late in the game with penalties, and gave it to us. You could say things went out way.

Head coaches SHOULD NOT be graded on their team record alone. They should be rated on the talent they have, and whether they over or underachieve with it. Have the Steelers over or underachieved in the past 10 years? I's an open question to the board.

Weird.

[Mojouw]

No doubt Boswell was bad and I do not understand why the steelers did not bring a better kicker as competition ..... But two of the games that Boswell has cost (Cleveland and Oakland ... maybe I forget another one if so, I'm sorry) was games where the steelers were huge favorite, but the steelers needed their kicker to win or force the overtime ..... it was against a very bad team

Yes he was one of the reasons why the steelers missed the playoffs, but not the only reason .....same for the 1990 Bills,their kicker is one of the reason for their loss but not the only reason they have lost the SB.

So now wins and losses don't matter unless teams are also beating the spread?

In 2017 8 of 13 wins were by 5 points or less. That made the Steelers 8-2 in games decided by a touchdown or less. That is shockingly good.
In 2018 the team was 6-4-1 in games decided by a touchdown or less. Far more realistic that games that go down to the wire are pretty evenly split.

So, Boz nails 2 kicks over the course of the season. Steelers are 11-5 and like the 2 or 3 seed. Does that change the conversation?

[polamalubeast]

So now wins and losses don't matter unless teams are also beating the spread?

In 2017 8 of 13 wins were by 5 points or less. That made the Steelers 8-2 in games decided by a touchdown or less. That is shockingly good.
In 2018 the team was 6-4-1 in games decided by a touchdown or less. Far more realistic that games that go down to the wire are pretty evenly split.

So, Boz nails 2 kicks over the course of the season. Steelers are 11-5 and like the 2 or 3 seed. Does that change the conversation?

The record that you said in close game is the reason why I refuse to say that the steelers were unlucky last year ... They did not deserve to make the playoffs.

The team has imploded after the last season, but if it would not have been the last season, it would have been before ... maybe in 2017 if the steelers would not have won 80% of their close game or in 2016 if the ravens players would have made the tackle on AB in the end zone.

The steelers have mostly won because of the talent (especially in 2017 with 10 pro bowl in their team) but not because of discipline, focus, chemistry or anything else that is important in a team.

A lot of similarity between Tomlin and Dan Bylsma right now ...Hope it will change.

[polamalubeast]

1. Tomlin has been a successful NFL HC for 12 consecutive seasons.
2. Bylsma has never been an NFL HC

Only by the record, Dan Bylsma was successful during his 6 years with the pens and he would surely have had several very good season (if regular season record) if Bylsma would still be the HC of this team, even if he would probably not have been close to win a Stanley Cup.

[pczach]

So we are adamant Tomlin ISN'T Dan Bylsma. What is different between Tomlin and Bylsma's Penguins career other than Tomlin added a conference championship game before his string of underperforming in the postseason which can be offset by Bylsma never missing the postseason, and that the Rooney's have not run out of patience with Tomlin? Seriously what makes Tomlin better than Bylsma and closer to Bobby Cox even though Cox has 3 more pennants than Tomlin has conference titles



The Penguins didn't have 70% of their roster get too old and have to completely retool the team. The team went to the Super Bowl in 2010 with an old roster, retained those old players to try to make one more run....and it didn't work. They needed to rebuild the entire roster.

What is so hard to figure out about this. Does it really need to be explained?

[DesertSteel]

I think Tomlin should have finished ahead of Pederson, Carroll, and Reid. But #8 is fair for 2018.

I didn't look at the actual list yet, but #8 just seems right for a guy with so few playoff wins in the past eight years, while having a HOF QB. I was a Tomlin supporter for 10+ years on all these boards, but at this point I'm hard-pressed to put him higher than that, based on recent results. I hope it trends up this year.

[Mojouw]

I didn't look at the actual list yet, but #8 just seems right for a guy with so few playoff wins in the past eight years, while having a HOF QB. I was a Tomlin supporter for 10+ years on all these boards, but at this point I'm hard-pressed to put him higher than that, based on recent results. I hope it trends up this year.

I actually am fine with anything in the top 10.

I'm just pressing to understand what any individual ranking is built on.

[Mojouw]

The record that you said in close game is the reason why I refuse to say that the steelers were unlucky last year ... They did not deserve to make the playoffs.

The team has imploded after the last season, but if it would not have been the last season, it would have been before ... maybe in 2017 if the steelers would not have won 80% of their close game or in 2016 if the ravens players would have made the tackle on AB in the end zone.

The steelers have mostly won because of the talent (especially in 2017 with 10 pro bowl in their team) but not because of discipline, focus, chemistry or anything else that is important in a team.

A lot of similarity between Tomlin and Dan Bylsma right now ...Hope it will change.

Ok. So now the evaluation is based on "deserving" to make the playoffs.

What defines that? Point differential? Turnover margin? Won/loss?

[Born2Steel]

I didn't look at the actual list yet, but #8 just seems right for a guy with so few playoff wins in the past eight years, while having a HOF QB. I was a Tomlin supporter for 10+ years on all these boards, but at this point I'm hard-pressed to put him higher than that, based on recent results. I hope it trends up this year.


Maybe you should know more about what you're posting about then. The list is ranking the HCs for 2018 only. Not some lifetime achievement ranking. So are you saying you think Tomlin is top 10 all time? I'm not on board with that either. I posted my list from #1 up to where I would rank 2018 Tomlin. What's your list?

[polamalubeast]

Ok. So now the evaluation is based on "deserving" to make the playoffs.

What defines that? Point differential? Turnover margin? Won/loss?

No .... My point is that the steelers have not been good enough in the last few years .... 3 playoffs win in 8 years with the talent that the steelers had, disappointing

[86WARD]

So where does he get slotted if the team goes 12-4 this year and gets to the Super Bowl?

They won’t. Lol.

[86WARD]

I believe that this year is a big year for Tomlin. He needs to get this team on track and show improvement.

If the team implodes this year, I would be ok with letting Tomlin go.

If the team has a very successful season, he will have proven that he is a good coach even to the doubters if they use their own parameters as a guide. If he isn't a good coach, he should have no chance at having a good season next year, right? The claims of "He doesn't have control of the team." "He only won with Cowher's players." "They don't develop players." "His teams don't get better." are all things that could get answered this season. If he does succeed, it will be directly against all the claims of his incompetence by the people that say he sucks.

Do you agree with my last statement?

If the team puts up a 9-7/8-8 effort, I would lean towards the Tomlin and Colbert have to go camp...

[DesertSteel]

Maybe you should know more about what you're posting about then. The list is ranking the HCs for 2018 only. Not some lifetime achievement ranking. So are you saying you think Tomlin is top 10 all time? I'm not on board with that either. I posted my list from #1 up to where I would rank 2018 Tomlin. What's your list?
All-time lol??? Where did you read that in my post? I know it's 2018. And, as I said, #8 is about right.

[smokin3000gt]

If the team puts up a 9-7/8-8 effort, I would lean towards the Tomlin and Colbert have to go camp...

Lean towards it? Bruh, you founded it :chuckle: :drink:

[Mojouw]

No .... My point is that the steelers have not been good enough in the last few years .... 3 playoffs win in 8 years with the talent that the steelers had, disappointing

OK. Then what is "good enough"? You have dismissed a few playoff runs in that time period because they barely made it in and didn't deserve to win. Then other playoff runs were ended in losses to teams you do not feel were that talented.

So you have written off the 3 playoff wins and magnified the playoff losses.

What would have been an acceptable series of outcomes in the last 8 years? 8 Super Bowls? 8 AFC Championship Games? Also, how talented was the Steelers roster really? People love to throw Pro Bowl #'s around. The same people also love to dismiss the Pro Bowl as a popularity contest. Is it any wonder that the Steelers send high #'s of players to the popularity contest in seasons when they win and their massive fan base is highly engaged?

My argument is not so much that you may be wrong. It is that you are making these really hard definitive statements and then offering no evidence for why. Each time we discuss it, you shift and change the evaluation criteria.

1. Were the Steelers significantly more talented than other NFL teams? How is that measured?
2. IF they were more talented how is that happening under a coaching staff that can not draft and develop talent?
3. What would have been an acceptable outcome for the past 8 years?
4. Has any other NFL team met the standard you set in #3? If not, is the standard realistic?

[Born2Steel]

All-time lol??? Where did you read that in my post? I know it's 2018. And, as I said, #8 is about right.

This post is why I asked if you meant all time.

"I didn't look at the actual list yet, but #8 just seems right for a guy with so few playoff wins in the past eight years, while having a HOF QB. I was a Tomlin supporter for 10+ years on all these boards, but at this point I'm hard-pressed to put him higher than that, based on recent results. I hope it trends up this year."

Are you not the same DS that told me on here that you do not take the time to actually go look at prospect game film or look into draft prospects yourself? That you just come on here and talk about the players others bring up? And now you say you didn't look at the actual list but said after being a supporter for 10 years, and bringing attention to the last 8 years specifically? Yes I thought maybe you were meaning all time rank and not just what the article was about. Maybe. Why I asked. A post that reads, 'I didn't read the material but here's my thoughts on it', will get some questions. Just saying.

But since you cleared that up...After the way last season started with Bell's holdout, watching the season go into the toilet the last quarter, and ending with AB turning into whatever that was, I think a top 10 ranking for the year is spectacular. I think Tomlin being ranked at #8 out of 32 shows the respect he has in the NFL as a HC. TSN criteria for their ranking had to take into consideration something intangible and off the field because there are only a few ways a season can start and end as badly as 2018 did for the Steelers. Maybe Tomlin did more to keep things from falling further than they did? Maybe things we will never know about. You do not get the respect, accolades from peers, and the stats and records Tomlin has by being bad at what you do. Not in the NFL.

[polamalubeast]

OK. Then what is "good enough"? You have dismissed a few playoff runs in that time period because they barely made it in and didn't deserve to win. Then other playoff runs were ended in losses to teams you do not feel were that talented.

So you have written off the 3 playoff wins and magnified the playoff losses.

What would have been an acceptable series of outcomes in the last 8 years? 8 Super Bowls? 8 AFC Championship Games? Also, how talented was the Steelers roster really? People love to throw Pro Bowl #'s around. The same people also love to dismiss the Pro Bowl as a popularity contest. Is it any wonder that the Steelers send high #'s of players to the popularity contest in seasons when they win and their massive fan base is highly engaged?

My argument is not so much that you may be wrong. It is that you are making these really hard definitive statements and then offering no evidence for why. Each time we discuss it, you shift and change the evaluation criteria.

1. Were the Steelers significantly more talented than other NFL teams? How is that measured?
2. IF they were more talented how is that happening under a coaching staff that can not draft and develop talent?
3. What would have been an acceptable outcome for the past 8 years?
4. Has any other NFL team met the standard you set in #3? If not, is the standard realistic?

It was my post the other time in a other thread,post 108


I will try to be clear to everyone

The loss against the saints ... I can live with that ... it was a good effort, but unfortunately this game was a playoff game because of our unacceptable loss against the Raiders.The loss against the Pats in 2017 also I can live with that, great effort, we lost AB early in the game and of course this game was a coin-toss game at the end.I can live with losses like that, even if it's heartbreaking .... But when we lose games like Denver because of the steelers shoot themselves in the foot like crazy, it's so frustrating ..... The loss against the Jaguars, it was very embarrassing because the focus was not at the right place or the loss once again in Denver in 2011 because of a horrible game plan .... it was horrible.

I can even accept losses like the one against the 2014 Ravens because the steelers had nobody to replace Bell and 2015 in Denver because of all the injuries, but some other losses are not acceptable and the steelers have had too much losses like that in the last couple years.

And of course, it's not just on the field that's the problem, off the field this is even worse, but it'll be for another time!

http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/30426-Bouchette-Tomlin-Likely-To-Get-Contract-Extension/page4

What is frustrating under Tomlin is that the steelers missed the playoffs 4 times under Tomlin and 3 of his times the steelers would have made the playoffs if they would not have lost against an awful Oakland Raiders team.

These are things like that that many are frustrated!

For the talent, it's not like the team was bad like the mid to late 1980s steelers.

[Edman]

What would have been an acceptable series of outcomes in the last 8 years? 8 Super Bowls? 8 AFC Championship Games?

If the Steelers played to the best of their ability, At least one Super Bowl Appearance and two (maybe three) AFC Title game appearances. Maybe.


Also, how talented was the Steelers roster really?

Talented enough to do better than a 3-5 postseason record. Talented enough to beat Tim Tebow and Blake Bortles. Talented enough to not miss the playoffs after a 7-2-1 start.

[Mojouw]

It was my post the other time in a other thread,post 108



http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/30426-Bouchette-Tomlin-Likely-To-Get-Contract-Extension/page4

What is frustrating under Tomlin is that the steelers missed the playoffs 4 times under Tomlin and 3 of his times the steelers would have made the playoffs if they would not have lost against an awful Oakland Raiders team.

These are things like that that many are frustrated!

For the talent, it's not like the team was bad like the mid to late 1980s steelers.

You still have not directly answered any of the questions. It is just a continual stream of strongly worded qualitative statements. X is better than Y but worse than Z because of how I feel. That is not a sound basis for trying to convince someone of something.

You have decided that the 2011 Denver game should have been a blowout. Offer no reasons for this except that the Steelers were "better".

Ok. Ben R was basically propped up like El Cid for that game. Troy was still Troy but many other stars were old and it showed. Aaron Smith's body finally totally gave out. I keep getting told that the 2011 defense (despite a #1 ranking) wasn't that good and smart people knew then that was when Lebeau needed to go -- but now the defense is great and the Broncos are bad. Can't have both.

The missing the playoffs thing - what about other teams? Seahawks have missed out 2 times in the same period. And 4 times went out in the WC or Divisional round with a SB victory and a SB loss squished in between. Better or worse? Or did they just lose to acceptable teams?

The Ravens have missed the playoffs 4 times in this same 2011-2018 time period. The lost in the conference round, won a SB, lost in the divisional round, and the WC round the other years. Better or Worse?

The Saints have missed the playoffs 4 times in the same period, each season going 7-9. Is there roster not talented? 4 playoff appearances have resulted in 3 divisional losses and 1 conference round loss. Better or worse?

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It was my post the other time in a other thread,post 108



http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/30426-Bouchette-Tomlin-Likely-To-Get-Contract-Extension/page4

What is frustrating under Tomlin is that the steelers missed the playoffs 4 times under Tomlin and 3 of his times the steelers would have made the playoffs if they would not have lost against an awful Oakland Raiders team.

These are things like that that many are frustrated!

For the talent, it's not like the team was bad like the mid to late 1980s steelers.

What if they beat the Raiders and lost to the Ravens instead? Still miss the playoffs, but do you feel better and change your opinion?

[polamalubeast]

You still have not directly answered any of the questions. It is just a continual stream of strongly worded qualitative statements. X is better than Y but worse than Z because of how I feel. That is not a sound basis for trying to convince someone of something.

You have decided that the 2011 Denver game should have been a blowout. Offer no reasons for this except that the Steelers were "better".

Ok. Ben R was basically propped up like El Cid for that game. Troy was still Troy but many other stars were old and it showed. Aaron Smith's body finally totally gave out. I keep getting told that the 2011 defense (despite a #1 ranking) wasn't that good and smart people knew then that was when Lebeau needed to go -- but now the defense is great and the Broncos are bad. Can't have both.

The missing the playoffs thing - what about other teams? Seahawks have missed out 2 times in the same period. And 4 times went out in the WC or Divisional round with a SB victory and a SB loss squished in between. Better or worse? Or did they just lose to acceptable teams?

The Ravens have missed the playoffs 4 times in this same 2011-2018 time period. The lost in the conference round, won a SB, lost in the divisional round, and the WC round the other years. Better or Worse?

The Saints have missed the playoffs 4 times in the same period, each season going 7-9. Is there roster not talented? 4 playoff appearances have resulted in 3 divisional losses and 1 conference round loss. Better or worse?

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What if they beat the Raiders and lost to the Ravens instead? Still miss the playoffs, but do you feel better and change your opinion?

For 2011, the gameplan was so bad in defense, it was ridiculous ... I mean, you can never play the cover 0 in the entire game, no matter who is the QB....Tebow had 10 completion for 316 yards ... I've never seen that in my life!

For the other teams, I do not have much time to answer right now, but for the Saints had a horrible defense in the years that they missed the playoffs .... if Sean Payton was a defensive coach, he would have been fired long time ago, but his offenses were always elite under him no matter what weapons had around Brees.

[Mojouw]

For 2011, the gameplan was so bad in defense, it was ridiculous ... I mean, you can never play the cover 0 in the entire game, no matter who is the QB....Tebow had 10 completion for 316 yards ... I've never seen that in my life!

For the other teams, I do not have much time to answer right now, but for the Saints had a horrible defense in the years that they missed the playoffs .... if Sean Payton was a defensive coach, he would have been fired long time ago, but his offenses were always elite under him no matter what weapons had around Brees.

I thought man coverage was the key to championship football? I keep getting told that it is the only way to beat Brady. Now it is a bad idea and you can't play it all game? Which is it?

So Sean Payton gets a pass because the offense was neat-o?

Mike Tomlin has a championship team get old and retire, then he rebuilds the defense on the fly and the guts get torn out of it in a catastrophic injury, and he holds it together enough to make a credible run and he should be on the chopping block?

Meanwhile guys like Payton and Coughlin alternate horrendous losing seasons with lightening in a bottle winning seasons and people pine away for them...?

[Born2Steel]

Let's clear up one misconception about the Steelers game vs the Jags. Blake Bortles did not beat the Steelers. Leonard Fournette rushed for 3 TDs and TJ Yeldon rushed for another. We had a fumble returned 50 yards for another score. Bortles threw 1 - 14yd TD pass late in the 4th. The Jags beat us in that playoff game the same way they beat us in the regular season that same year. They ran the ball over us, through us, and around us. We simply could not stop their run game at all.


The Steelers had a late season collapse in 2018 that I have no problem putting on Tomlin and staff. But Tomlin and staff also get credit for the previous 4 seasons of double digit wins too. Tomlin was ranked as the 8th best coach of 2018 despite all the on-field and off-field problems. That's top 1/4 for those that hate doing the math. Which equals pretty damn good job even with the blame of everything. That's not a coach you just fire.

[polamalubeast]

I thought man coverage was the key to championship football? I keep getting told that it is the only way to beat Brady. Now it is a bad idea and you can't play it all game? Which is it?

So Sean Payton gets a pass because the offense was neat-o?

Mike Tomlin has a championship team get old and retire, then he rebuilds the defense on the fly and the guts get torn out of it in a catastrophic injury, and he holds it together enough to make a credible run and he should be on the chopping block?

Meanwhile guys like Payton and Coughlin alternate horrendous losing seasons with lightening in a bottle winning seasons and people pine away for them...?

Man to man defense,yes,but not Cover 0!!!!

[st33lersguy]

You still have not directly answered any of the questions. It is just a continual stream of strongly worded qualitative statements. X is better than Y but worse than Z because of how I feel. That is not a sound basis for trying to convince someone of something.

You have decided that the 2011 Denver game should have been a blowout. Offer no reasons for this except that the Steelers were "better".

Ok. Ben R was basically propped up like El Cid for that game. Troy was still Troy but many other stars were old and it showed. Aaron Smith's body finally totally gave out. I keep getting told that the 2011 defense (despite a #1 ranking) wasn't that good and smart people knew then that was when Lebeau needed to go -- but now the defense is great and the Broncos are bad. Can't have both.


The 2011 Broncos are objectively one of the 5 worst playoff teams to ever make the playoffs and it is not because "THEY HAD TEBOW". The 2011 Broncos had a -81 point differential, 2nd worst ever for a playoff participant. 7 wins were by 7 points or less, 6 of those 7 were against teams that missed the playoffs. Then compare that to 4 losses by at least 18 or more points, which included a 26 point loss to a Bills team during a 1-8 stretch. They 25th in scoring offense, 24th in scoring defense, 23rd in total offense and 20th in total defense. They were really a 5-11 team that needed fluke after fluke nearly every week for a month and a half just to get to .500. The Steelers, at 12-4 were objectively better, and not just in the win column. That loss cannot be allowed to be excused in any circumstance

[Mojouw]

The 2011 Broncos are objectively one of the 5 worst playoff teams to ever make the playoffs and it is not because "THEY HAD TEBOW". The 2011 Broncos had a -81 point differential, 2nd worst ever for a playoff participant. 7 wins were by 7 points or less, 6 of those 7 were against teams that missed the playoffs. Then compare that to 4 losses by at least 18 or more points, which included a 26 point loss to a Bills team during a 1-8 stretch. They 25th in scoring offense, 24th in scoring defense, 23rd in total offense and 20th in total defense. They were really a 5-11 team that needed fluke after fluke nearly every week for a month and a half just to get to .500. The Steelers, at 12-4 were objectively better, and not just in the win column. That loss cannot be allowed to be excused in any circumstance

Now that's how you make an argument.

[DesertSteel]

This post is why I asked if you meant all time.

"I didn't look at the actual list yet, but #8 just seems right for a guy with so few playoff wins in the past eight years, while having a HOF QB. I was a Tomlin supporter for 10+ years on all these boards, but at this point I'm hard-pressed to put him higher than that, based on recent results. I hope it trends up this year."

Are you not the same DS that told me on here that you do not take the time to actually go look at prospect game film or look into draft prospects yourself? That you just come on here and talk about the players others bring up? And now you say you didn't look at the actual list but said after being a supporter for 10 years, and bringing attention to the last 8 years specifically? Yes I thought maybe you were meaning all time rank and not just what the article was about. Maybe. Why I asked. A post that reads, 'I didn't read the material but here's my thoughts on it', will get some questions. Just saying.

I don't need to click on every click bait link and read someone else's ranking to tell you where I'd rank Tomlin. I said #8 is about right. What's your problem with that?



But since you cleared that up...After the way last season started with Bell's holdout, watching the season go into the toilet the last quarter, and ending with AB turning into whatever that was, I think a top 10 ranking for the year is spectacular. I think Tomlin being ranked at #8 out of 32 shows the respect he has in the NFL as a HC. TSN criteria for their ranking had to take into consideration something intangible and off the field because there are only a few ways a season can start and end as badly as 2018 did for the Steelers. Maybe Tomlin did more to keep things from falling further than they did? Maybe things we will never know about. You do not get the respect, accolades from peers, and the stats and records Tomlin has by being bad at what you do. Not in the NFL.
That's right, I have a life so I don't spend time breaking down film of prospects from Eastern Michigan that the Steelers might draft in the 7th round. As for Tomlin, #8 is very good for someone that didn't make the playoffs. Prior to the past couple years, I would've put him at #3-4.

Don't bother responding.

[86WARD]

Lean towards it? Bruh, you founded it :chuckle: :drink:

Nah...I like Tomlin but he has some major flaws but so do a lot of coaches. My biggest problems with Tomlin are judging players character, discipline on field and lack of adjustment throughout the season.

[polamalubeast]

Let's clear up one misconception about the Steelers game vs the Jags. Blake Bortles did not beat the Steelers. Leonard Fournette rushed for 3 TDs and TJ Yeldon rushed for another. We had a fumble returned 50 yards for another score. Bortles threw 1 - 14yd TD pass late in the 4th. The Jags beat us in that playoff game the same way they beat us in the regular season that same year. They ran the ball over us, through us, and around us. We simply could not stop their run game at all.


The Steelers had a late season collapse in 2018 that I have no problem putting on Tomlin and staff. But Tomlin and staff also get credit for the previous 4 seasons of double digit wins too. Tomlin was ranked as the 8th best coach of 2018 despite all the on-field and off-field problems. That's top 1/4 for those that hate doing the math. Which equals pretty damn good job even with the blame of everything. That's not a coach you just fire.

Blake Bortles was a huge factor for their win

Yes their running game was great, but Bortles had been great in 3rd down and he also had 35 rushing yards ... Bortles had 214 yards in 26 pass attempts after having below 100 yards against the bills the week before.

His TD pass was a classic Butler Defense .... He was wide open!

[polamalubeast]

I thought man coverage was the key to championship football? I keep getting told that it is the only way to beat Brady. Now it is a bad idea and you can't play it all game? Which is it?

So Sean Payton gets a pass because the offense was neat-o?

Mike Tomlin has a championship team get old and retire, then he rebuilds the defense on the fly and the guts get torn out of it in a catastrophic injury, and he holds it together enough to make a credible run and he should be on the chopping block?

Meanwhile guys like Payton and Coughlin alternate horrendous losing seasons with lightening in a bottle winning seasons and people pine away for them...?

Big difference between the cover 0 and the man to man defense ... You can play man to man defense with 1 or 2 safety help!....The cover 0, you have no safety help

I overestimate maybe Sean Payton, but what I like about him, he's an amazing play caller and offensive mind ..... The saints have really been very consistent in offense in his tenure .... Always in the top 10 in points and yards since 2006 ... When his defense was just average, the saints were a contender.

The Giants, their roster was garbage at the end of the Coughlin era ... In the last 3 years, the giants were one of the least talented teams in the NFL .... The giants had OBJ in offense and no other weapon in Offense and their defense was in the bottom 3 with the Saints ..... Since Coughlin left, the Giants are really a laughing stock in the NFL.


For Tomlin, no doubt Shazier's injury hurt the steelers, but one of the big reasons that our loss was embarrassing against the Jaguars is his comments with Dungy...We can't focus on only a team in the NFL as HC or players...Also,the locker room had become way too loose, I do not know how much Tomlin is to blame on that, but we'll have a better idea in the next few years .... Let's hope he learned from his mistakes .

Does he have 10 HC better than Tomlin at the moment? ... I do not think so , but the next season will be very important for him .... This will be his most important season since the steelers started at 0-4 in 2013 when everyone doubted him ..... It will be in the same situation in 2019 and we will see if Tomlin will respond well again.

[DesertSteel]

Here’s the same source (SN), ranking Super Bowl winning coaches. Tomlin ranks 18/32, with Cowher coming after him (21). Noll is third.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-super-bowl-winning-head-coaches-from-the-legendary-to-the-lucky/ukxy4m4fbmm1b32y7kbgsap1/32

[Edman]

Let's clear up one misconception about the Steelers game vs the Jags. Blake Bortles did not beat the Steelers. Leonard Fournette rushed for 3 TDs and TJ Yeldon rushed for another. We had a fumble returned 50 yards for another score. Bortles threw 1 - 14yd TD pass late in the 4th. The Jags beat us in that playoff game the same way they beat us in the regular season that same year. They ran the ball over us, through us, and around us. We simply could not stop their run game at all.


The Steelers had a late season collapse in 2018 that I have no problem putting on Tomlin and staff. But Tomlin and staff also get credit for the previous 4 seasons of double digit wins too. Tomlin was ranked as the 8th best coach of 2018 despite all the on-field and off-field problems. That's top 1/4 for those that hate doing the math. Which equals pretty damn good job even with the blame of everything. That's not a coach you just fire.

In the context of the Steelers organization, no it is not (They haven't fired a head coach since Nixon and I don't see that changing now). It's a coach who "retires" or whose contract conveniently expires and isn't "renewed".

Tomlin is not on the hot seat and never will be. He'll just leave when the time comes. This upcoming August will tell us what the Steelers truly think of Tomlin going into 2019.

[Born2Steel]

Blake Bortles was a huge factor for their win

Yes their running game was great, but Bortles had been great in 3rd down and he also had 35 rushing yards ... Bortles had 214 yards in 26 pass attempts after having below 100 yards against the bills the week before.

His TD pass was a classic Butler Defense .... He was wide open!

Here you go again. Moving the goalposts just enough to give your response the appearance of credibility. The Steelers were over-playing the Jags run so much that Bortles made some easy pass and catch plays. The facts of that game, of the Jags season really, is that they kicked our ass with the run game. We had no answer for it. Had Bortles dropped back to pass for half of their offensive plays the Steelers would have won that game.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/matchup?gameId=400999181

As the game summary says in the link, Bortles only passed 26 total times. That is out of 61 total offensive plays. They rushed the ball 35 times for nearly 5 yards per run. Add in the Steelers had 2 turnovers to the Jags zero, with one being returned for a TD. Bortles was not the player that beat the Steelers that playoff game, it was Leonard Fournette with 25 carries for 109 yards and 3 TDs. The Jags had a top ranked defense that year and the Steelers gameplan dropped 42 points on them, btw. Not a Tomlin loss but a run defense minus Shaz that cost us that day. Disappointing yes, but not Tomlin's fault. He wins that game with a healthy Shazier.

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Here’s the same source (SN), ranking Super Bowl winning coaches. Tomlin ranks 18/32, with Cowher coming after him (21). Noll is third.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-super-bowl-winning-head-coaches-from-the-legendary-to-the-lucky/ukxy4m4fbmm1b32y7kbgsap1/32

Yep. I've read that article too.

[Born2Steel]

In the context of the Steelers organization, no it is not (They haven't fired a head coach since Nixon and I don't see that changing now). It's a coach who "retires" or whose contract conveniently expires and isn't "renewed".

Tomlin is not on the hot seat and never will be. He'll just leave when the time comes. This upcoming August will tell us what the Steelers truly think of Tomlin going into 2019.

I think this is accurate on how the Steelers do business. But it's not accurate on whether Tomlin is on the hotseat. I think every coach is on the hotseat that didn't win the Superbowl. What has separated the Steelers is they don't give up on a coach just because AB makes a mess of things. Tomlin is worth more here than elsewhere, that's good business.

[GoSlash27]

Here you go again. Moving the goalposts just enough to give your response the appearance of credibility.

It's funny how the most trivial subjects can motivate people to display such rude behavior towards each other...

[Born2Steel]

It's funny how the most trivial subjects can motivate people to display such rude behavior towards each other...

Yep, you are correct. However in this case PB consistently changes the parameters of any conversation. It tends to get frustrating when every single disagreement goes this way. Sometimes that frustration boils over into "rudeness". Yet PB and I will continue to have these frustrating conversations because there are times when we agree on things and even in those times we don't agree it doesn't get personal. We argue but it mostly stays civil.

[polamalubeast]

I'm going to stop this conservation for the rest of the year but for one last thing, I still believe we can compete for the super bowl with Tomlin and I think he'll be better now that the players they've been a problem in the locker room are out of Pittsburgh, but he needs to prove it this year.

Yes I think coaches like Sean Payton, Andy Reid or others are better at the moment, but that does not mean that Tomlin is a horrible coach, it's just that I do not think he's elite right now.