James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

[polamalubeast]

The memory of a subpar rookie season wasn’t the only thing that now won’t be weighing James Washington down in Year 2 with the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Fifteen lost pounds also aren’t being carried in 2019, a slimmer and trimmer Washington said Thursday after an organized team activity session at the UPMC Rooney Sports Complex.

“Just more speed,” the wide receiver said for his reasoning in dropping from 225 to 210 over the past four months. “I feel like I am quicker off the ball and I am just able to run through everybody now.”

A second-round pick just 13 months ago, Washington might be considered the incumbent in the competition for the Steelers’ new No. 2 wideout in 2019. But is he the favorite?

The Steelers signed veteran Dante Moncrief to a two-year, $9 million contract and drafted Diontae Johnson high in the third round.

“You can’t really focus on things that someone else does; you’ve got to continue trying to be the best you,” Washington said of the Steelers bringing in new receivers. “And that’s the thought I had in the back of my mind the whole time.”

“It brings out the best of all of us,” he added. “But at the end of the day, we are still (friends), still a team. So, it’s like iron sharpens iron.”

read more

https://triblive.com/sports/james-washington-sheds-weight-puts-rookie-season-behind-him-in-year-2-with-steelers/

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[86WARD]

Man I hope he steps up!

[steelreserve]

I don't think speed is the issue. It rarely is. Some guys can get open and some can't. THAT is what needs to change if he wants to follow in JuJu's footsteps, and not Markus Wheaton's.

[hawaiiansteeler]

I don't think speed is the issue. It rarely is. Some guys can get open and some can't. THAT is what needs to change if he wants to follow in JuJu's footsteps, and not Markus Wheaton's.

Jerry Rice ran a 4.71 forty...

[Fire Goodell]

I don't think speed is the issue. It rarely is. Some guys can get open and some can't. THAT is what needs to change if he wants to follow in JuJu's footsteps, and not Markus Wheaton's.

Wheaton actually wasn't doing bad until his finger got mangled

[DesertSteel]

He's hungry!!!

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Good sign. He was faster than quick in college, so being leaner and quicker may allow him to run the bottom of the route tree better, as well as get to top end speed quicker. I love the fact he is working like a pro in the offseason.

[86WARD]

Wheaton actually wasn't doing bad until his finger got mangled

That was Sammie Coates.

[Fire Goodell]

That was Sammie Coates.

Both of them had finger injuries that made their careers turn south

[Butch]

I don't think speed is the issue. It rarely is. Some guys can get open and some can't. THAT is what needs to change if he wants to follow in JuJu's footsteps, and not Markus Wheaton's.
I don't even think it was about getting open so much as it was about him doubting himself or over thinking what he was doing. He needs to find a way to over come that. If he does he will go far but if he doesn't then he will be another good guy who just couldn't make it in the NFL. I say this with caution but I see a lot of upside with James hope he proves me right.

[polamalubeast]

Both of them had finger injuries that made their careers turn south

At least Wheaton has been good or average for 2 years(2014 and 2015)...Coates has been good for only 5 games!

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

That was Sammie Coates.

I thought Wheaton as well, had a broken finger that he played thru, rather than get surgery during the season which never really healed correctly. Wheaton broke a finger while in Chicago as Bear. Coates, was no surprise to me, as I said he was gonna drop a lot of footballs, because he wasn't a natural catcher.

Washington has great hands, works hard, has longer buildup speed rather than short area quickness and wasn't a polished route runner inside of 15 yard routes. I think dropping some weight will help quickness and more work will help him run slants, outs, digs. Washington has more tools, skills and attitude than either Wheaton or Coates had when joining the team.

[86WARD]

Both of them had finger injuries that made their careers turn south

Wheaton broke a pinkie in Chicago. Coates was the one that mangled it in Pittsburgh and then couldn’t catch anymore. Started that season out great and then mangled his finger and was done...

[tube517]

I only remember Wheaton's game vs Seattle when he had 200+ yds. Other than that, his career was meh.

[steelreserve]

Wheaton actually wasn't doing bad until his finger got mangled

What do you mean? He was ok as a third receiver when he was last priority in the opponent's game plan. The minute they tried to use him as anything beyond that, he stunk the place out. When Bryant was out at the start of 2015 on another drug suspension, they tried to have Wheaton fill in as the #2 WR, and he was dogshit. Just couldn't do it. He was one of those guys who just could not get open against a decent defender.

Coates was another one who was like that ... snuck in behind some people for a few long circus catches, but the equivalent of a basketball player who can only shoot from half court and can't get open when anyone is actually defending him. I think he had literally 20 career catches or something. Just useless in the day-to-day offense.

[Born2Steel]

You really just want to see guys trying to step up their game and start seeing little improvements at this stage. WRs seldom come in and have everything figured out day1 or even year2. The tools are just part of it. If he’s obviously putting in the work to take that next step that’s all you can really ask of him. As we have found out, the mental prep is a very important part of development too.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

What do you mean? He was ok as a third receiver when he was last priority in the opponent's game plan. The minute they tried to use him as anything beyond that, he stunk the place out. When Bryant was out at the start of 2015 on another drug suspension, they tried to have Wheaton fill in as the #2 WR, and he was dogshit. Just couldn't do it. He was one of those guys who just could not get open against a decent defender.

Coates was another one who was like that ... snuck in behind some people for a few long circus catches, but the equivalent of a basketball player who can only shoot from half court and can't get open when anyone is actually defending him. I think he had literally 20 career catches or something. Just useless in the day-to-day offense.

Yeah, um sure....dogshit?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti152tN9kwU

I love how we as fans berate NFL WR's that are #3 or #4 options in the offense because they don't have the numbers of the top 2 options. :doh:

Its like fans in threads like this hacking on Washington for not doing enough as a rookie, when the top 2 WR's in front of him were pro bowlers. Its like we expect at least 4 players to have close to 1,000 yard seasons or else they are terrible. :huh:

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You really just want to see guys trying to step up their game and start seeing little improvements at this stage. WRs seldom come in and have everything figured out day1 or even year2. The tools are just part of it. If he’s obviously putting in the work to take that next step that’s all you can really ask of him. As we have found out, the mental prep is a very important part of development too.

100% agree. :thumbsup:

[86WARD]

There was nothing wrong with Wheaton. He was what he was and he probably would’ve been better had he stayed in Pittsburgh. If it were the 90s, he’d be right in line with Ernie Mills and Andre Hastings.

[Fire Goodell]

What do you mean? He was ok as a third receiver when he was last priority in the opponent's game plan. The minute they tried to use him as anything beyond that, he stunk the place out. When Bryant was out at the start of 2015 on another drug suspension, they tried to have Wheaton fill in as the #2 WR, and he was dogshit. Just couldn't do it. He was one of those guys who just could not get open against a decent defender.

Coates was another one who was like that ... snuck in behind some people for a few long circus catches, but the equivalent of a basketball player who can only shoot from half court and can't get open when anyone is actually defending him. I think he had literally 20 career catches or something. Just useless in the day-to-day offense.

As a #3 receiver with 700+ yards and 5TD's that's good production. He started off with better numbers than Manny Sanders. The guy was a slot WR not an outside WR so yeah, if they played him out of position he wasn't that great.

I never said the guy was a pro bowler but he was a decent slot WR for a few years

[DesertSteel]

Between the preseason and the last three games, Washington flashed lots of potential. Now that he’s got a year under his belt and knows what to expect, I can see him having a breakout second year.

[polamalubeast]

Wheaton was inconsistent but he was not a horrible player with us

[steelreserve]

Yeah, um sure....dogshit?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti152tN9kwU

I love how we as fans berate NFL WR's that are #3 or #4 options in the offense because they don't have the numbers of the top 2 options. :doh:

Its like fans in threads like this hacking on Washington for not doing enough as a rookie, when the top 2 WR's in front of him were pro bowlers. Its like we expect at least 4 players to have close to 1,000 yard seasons or else they are terrible. :huh:

Dogshit is the correct answer. I don't berate him for "not having the numbers" of the #1 and #2 guys, I berate him because he could not get open against competent defenders.

Since a big part of this discussion is who will step up to be "the man" other than Juju, that implies being a legitimate receiving threat in your own right, and Wheaton was never that. He could take advantage of a mismatch, but that was about it - he fell flat when asked to create opportunities on his own. When we tried to have him be the #2 receiver, he got shut down so hard, we might as well have had Dri Archer out there. Like seriously, he would get 30 yards a game or something. Dogshit. If you cannot get open and make some plays on your own, you are not a good receiver.


As a #3 receiver with 700+ yards and 5TD's that's good production. He started off with better numbers than Manny Sanders. The guy was a slot WR not an outside WR so yeah, if they played him out of position he wasn't that great.

I never said the guy was a pro bowler but he was a decent slot WR for a few years

This will be an unpopular opinion, but here goes: Slot receiver is not a speciality that you're good at. It's where you go when you lack one or more tools needed to make it as a regular receiver, so they put you there to try and get a matchup advantage by having you go against what is essentially a backup DB.

Well, that's one type of slot receiver; the other is the young guy on his way up who is temporarily stuck behind two established players. Sanders was that kind of slot receiver. Wheaton, we hoped was that kind of slot receiver, but he was not. He was able to meet the minimum requirements of being a WR when he had significant help, that's all. The slot is not a destination, except in isolated cases it is a waypoint on the road to the kind of WR you really are.

It's important to remember that with Wheaton, we did not draft him to be a slot receiver. We drafted him hoping he could be a big-play threat, stretch the field, etc., which is what a #1 or #2 receiver does. He ended up in the slot because he didn't have what it took to be those things.

That's what we are hoping does not happen with Washington, but he's got a lot to prove if so. WR is kind of like QB in that sense ... QBs either get it or they don't, and WRs can either get open or they can't. A lot of the time that ability is evident as a rookie. Washington gets an incomplete grade, I guess, but that's far from a step in the right direction, it's just a year where nothing happened.

[Steeldude]

Good news. I'm glad he is taking it seriously

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

As a #3 receiver with 700+ yards and 5TD's that's good production. He started off with better numbers than Manny Sanders. The guy was a slot WR not an outside WR so yeah, if they played him out of position he wasn't that great.

I never said the guy was a pro bowler but he was a decent slot WR for a few years

I never looked it up, but was that a 700+ yard season Wheaton had at one point? That is pretty good production. He must have been playing against NFL players that were not any good. :rolleyes:

[teegre]

I never looked it up, but was that a 700+ yard season Wheaton had at one point? That is pretty good production. He must have been playing against NFL players that were not any good. :rolleyes:

:nod:

2014: 644
2015: 749

[hawaiiansteeler]

:nod:

2014: 644
2015: 749

an aberration, the NFL had no decent defenders those two years.

[steelreserve]

I never looked it up, but was that a 700+ yard season Wheaton had at one point? That is pretty good production. He must have been playing against NFL players that were not any good. :rolleyes:

A third of that was in one game, wasn't it?

Really, that was the whole point. He put up some alright numbers when lining up against basically the worst defender on the other team. When he was asked to go against the first string, he got shit on.

The guy could not stand on his own. He was not a playmaker. Any doubt about that ought to be removed by what happened when he went to another team. Good WRs get a chance to compete for a bigger role on a new team and they thrive. He basically did the opposite of that.

[teegre]

A third of that was in one game, wasn't it?

Really, that was the whole point. He put up some alright numbers when lining up against basically the worst defender on the other team. When he was asked to go against the first string, he got shit on.

Yes... and, those 200 yards were against the Legion of Boom secondary.

:noidea:

[steelreserve]

Yes... and, those 200 yards were against the Legion of Boom secondary.

:noidea:

Ah ok, well that outweighs the 20 or 30 yards he was good for in any other game. Must mean he's actually a kickass receiver who is tearing it up now, and we never should've let him go.

Or maybe any dingbat gets lucky once in a while.

[teegre]

Ah ok, well that outweighs the 20 or 30 yards he was good for in any other game. Must mean he's actually a kickass receiver who is tearing it up now, and we never should've let him go.

Or maybe any dingbat gets lucky once in a while.

Between “complete dogshit” and “Hall of Famer” there is a spectrum... :noidea:

[Six Rings]

Jerry Rice ran a 4.71 forty...

That is internet fake news

https://www.reddit.com/r/NFL_Draft/comments/4chp3i/no_jerry_rice_did_not_run_a_471_40_in_1985/

4.55-4.63 Walsh says 4.59. Rice was tall, an expert route runner, very quick and carried his pads well. He had " football speed " and a special ability to know where he had to be and when.

If the 40 yard dash was timed with a helmet and pads, which is what matteres most and Rice would beat some 4.45 to 4.5 guys. At least I think so.

[steelreserve]

Between “complete dogshit” and “Hall of Famer” there is a spectrum... :noidea:

Well, going back to the point of this whole thing ... if Washington turned out the same as Wheaton, would you be happy about that?

Does that mean we would call it a win and keep him as the long-term answer, or in a couple years would we need to go looking for someone else?

I still think that if you can't get open on your own, that makes you a pretty dogshit receiver.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Between “complete dogshit” and “Hall of Famer” there is a spectrum... :noidea:

Teams don't need #2, 3 or 4 WR's. They only need pro bowlers and HOF candidates. The rest are all just dogshit.

So if Washington ends up being just like former Dolphin and Wisconsin Badger, Chris Chambers. A guy with similar build and skillset, a 5'11 long strider with long arms that was more fast than quick, but never a #1 WR or pro bowl type guy, then he will be deemed as dogshit. The hilarious part I find is that some fans have already judged him a bust and he hasn't even been to his 2nd NFL training camp. SMH.

[steelreserve]

That is internet fake news

https://www.reddit.com/r/NFL_Draft/comments/4chp3i/no_jerry_rice_did_not_run_a_471_40_in_1985/

4.55-4.63 Walsh says 4.59. Rice was tall, an expert route runner, very quick and carried his pads well. He had " football speed " and a special ability to know where he had to be and when.

If the 40 yard dash was timed with a helmet and pads, which is what matteres most and Rice would beat some 4.45 to 4.5 guys. At least I think so.

Even if he did run a 4.7, why would it matter? Everyone knows straight-ahead speed doesn't mean shit unless you already did something else to get an advantage first (faked someone out, got a good block, found a hole in the defense, etc.)

Like, on any passing play there are defenders lined up 10, 20 yards downfield. On a running play, there are guys lined up 5 or 10 yards to the outside. You are not just going to run right past people. I mean, we had Willie Parker for 5 or 6 years, how could people not know this unless they have shit for brains?

Even a guy like Mike Wallace with "breakaway speed" ... Well yeah, he was fast, but more than anything, he was great at taking the right angle so that it mattered he was fast. Plenty of guys with similar speed to him on both sides of the ball, but it ain't shit unless you have something to go with it.

And what Wallace was doing was amateur-level shit compared to Rice, really just instinct. Rice had that down on a whole different level, not to mention an incredible anticipation for what the opponent was going to do, while being a master of every possible way to take advantage of it.

[86WARD]

Even if he did run a 4.7, why would it matter? Everyone knows straight-ahead speed doesn't mean shit unless you already did something else to get an advantage first (faked someone out, got a good block, found a hole in the defense, etc.)

Like, on any passing play there are defenders lined up 10, 20 yards downfield. On a running play, there are guys lined up 5 or 10 yards to the outside. You are not just going to run right past people. I mean, we had Willie Parker for 5 or 6 years, how could people not know this unless they have shit for brains?

Even a guy like Mike Wallace with "breakaway speed" ... Well yeah, he was fast, but more than anything, he was great at taking the right angle so that it mattered he was fast. Plenty of guys with similar speed to him on both sides of the ball, but it ain't shit unless you have something to go with it.

And what Wallace was doing was amateur-level shit compared to Rice, really just instinct. Rice had that down on a whole different level, not to mention an incredible anticipation for what the opponent was going to do, while being a master of every possible way to take advantage of it.

Speed helps but knowing how to play football and do it in pads on Sundays is different.

Think about the following names:

Dri Archer.

Hines Ward.

One of the fastest NFL players versus one of the slowest NFL WRs.

[steelreserve]

Teams don't need #2, 3 or 4 WR's. They only need pro bowlers and HOF candidates. The rest are all just dogshit.

So if Washington ends up being just like former Dolphin and Wisconsin Badger, Chris Chambers. A guy with similar build and skillset, a 5'11 long strider with long arms that was more fast than quick, but never a #1 WR or pro bowl type guy, then he will be deemed as dogshit. The hilarious part I find is that some fans have already judged him a bust and he hasn't even been to his 2nd NFL training camp. SMH.

Yes, that's what I said. That's exactly what I said. I said anyone who isn't a Hall of Fame player is dogshit. Not "Wheaton, specifically, was not a very good receiver, and here are several reasons why, and I hope Washington turns out better than that." No, I certainly didn't say that at all.

Nope, Hall of Famer or dogshit. Us fans are just out of our minds and totally clueless, unlike you fans.

[pczach]

Teams don't need #2, 3 or 4 WR's. They only need pro bowlers and HOF candidates. The rest are all just dogshit.

So if Washington ends up being just like former Dolphin and Wisconsin Badger, Chris Chambers. A guy with similar build and skillset, a 5'11 long strider with long arms that was more fast than quick, but never a #1 WR or pro bowl type guy, then he will be deemed as dogshit. The hilarious part I find is that some fans have already judged him a bust and he hasn't even been to his 2nd NFL training camp. SMH.



It's just hard for me to wrap my head around people that don't give players a chance to develop before deciding that they can't play, or crushing and insulting players that weren't stars as if they had pissed on their heads or called their mothers names.

[teegre]

Well, going back to the point of this whole thing ... if Washington turned out the same as Wheaton, would you be happy about that?

Does that mean we would call it a win and keep him as the long-term answer, or in a couple years would we need to go looking for someone else?

I still think that if you can't get open on your own, that makes you a pretty dogshit receiver.

So...

The floor is 700 yards and 5 TDs.
The ceiling is 1400 yards and 7 TDs.

Hines Ward fluctuated (up & down) between those two parameters for most of his career. Yea, I’d take that.

[Born2Steel]

If Washington puts up Wheaton numbers, Johnson puts up Wheaton numbers, Moncrief puts up Wheaton numbers, JuJu puts up Wheaton numbers, Eli puts up Wheaton numbers, Switzer puts up Wheaton numbers, McDonald puts up Wheaton numbers, NOBODY puts up AB numbers, how does this offense fare over the course of a season? Instead of WR vs WR comparisons I'm more interested in the production of the offense as a whole unit. That is what moves the needle for me. As has been pointed out consistently on here, AB putting up HoF numbers got us nowhere fast. Maybe it's not the receiving stats of individuals we need to make the top priority this season?

[polamalubeast]

If Washington puts up Wheaton numbers, Johnson puts up Wheaton numbers, Moncrief puts up Wheaton numbers, JuJu puts up Wheaton numbers, Eli puts up Wheaton numbers, Switzer puts up Wheaton numbers, McDonald puts up Wheaton numbers, NOBODY puts up AB numbers, how does this offense fare over the course of a season? Instead of WR vs WR comparisons I'm more interested in the production of the offense as a whole unit. That is what moves the needle for me. As has been pointed out consistently on here, AB putting up HoF numbers got us nowhere fast. Maybe it's not the receiving stats of individuals we need to make the top priority this season?

JuJu should have at least 1000 yards (he had at least 1400 yards last year), but for the rest if 2 other WR's and Mcdonald are capable of having 700 yards, I'll be happy.

But as you say, we do not need to focus on the individual stats .... I'd rather see Ben getting 4200-4500 yards with a better YPA and less interception than having 5000 yards with a lot of interception and missing the playoffs because we did not use the running game enough or that our defense was bad.

[steelreserve]

So...

The floor is 700 yards and 5 TDs.
The ceiling is 1400 yards and 7 TDs.

Hines Ward fluctuated (up & down) between those two parameters for most of his career. Yea, I’d take that.

Man, you just proved my point without even knowing it. Clearly, there is a HUGE difference between an impact player that makes a contribution to winning football, and a player who collects stats by showing up and doing the minimum to not get benched. Unless you have been snorting so much cocaine that you are actually arguing Markus Wheaton belongs in the same company as Hines Ward. We all know Wheaton isn't even worthy of carrying a bucket of Hines Ward's shit. Cocaine's a hell of a drug.

What Wheaton got are the slot receiver stats for showing up. 400-500 yards. A couple hundred more if you have help (good receivers in front of you, good QB, a lucky game or two). Same as OLB being 4-5 sacks if you just show up and don't get benched, a couple more with some luck. Wheaton didn't "get" 700 yards that anyone else wouldn't have. And for his career, that was an extreme outlier. You'd be happy if our second-round draft pick topped out at a single 700-yard season and his next-best in his career was 400-500? Really?

Where did you get 1400 yards as a ceiling. I was talking about Wheaton. I don't see how that even makes sense.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Cocaine's a hell of a drug.


https://media1.tenor.com/images/2cbed66523fdafde5871c06c05863458/tenor.gif?itemid=5028225

[teegre]

Man, you just proved my point without even knowing it. Clearly, there is a HUGE difference between an impact player that makes a contribution to winning football, and a player who collects stats by showing up and doing the minimum to not get benched. Unless you have been snorting so much cocaine that you are actually arguing Markus Wheaton belongs in the same company as Hines Ward. We all know Wheaton isn't even worthy of carrying a bucket of Hines Ward's shit. Cocaine's a hell of a drug.

What Wheaton got are the slot receiver stats for showing up. 400-500 yards. A couple hundred more if you have help (good receivers in front of you, good QB, a lucky game or two). Same as OLB being 4-5 sacks if you just show up and don't get benched, a couple more with some luck. Wheaton didn't "get" 700 yards that anyone else wouldn't have. And for his career, that was an extreme outlier. You'd be happy if our second-round draft pick topped out at a single 700-yard season and his next-best in his career was 400-500? Really?

Where did you get 1400 yards as a ceiling. I was talking about Wheaton. I don't see how that even makes sense.

Okay then.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Okay then.

https://media.giphy.com/media/tq4PuoUVgsK9q/giphy.gif

[Mojouw]

Is there any evidence for these blanket statements?

Slot WRs get X yards by showing up.
OLBs get Y sacks by having a pulse.

Using hyperbolic statements backed by nothing other than a strong gut feeling severely undercuts what is otherwise an argument that many would be prone to agree with.

This kinda says that 500 yards puts you around the top 10 in slot WRs league wide. Didn't totally do the prorated math. https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-the-nfls-top-slot-receivers-through-13-weeks-2

It isn't really that anyone thinks Wheaton is all that great shakes. It is more that the justifications used to downgrad him are seemingly made up out of whole cloth and based on little empirical evidence. I mean that is the cool thing about the NFL, we have how many years and decades of statistics to develop reasonable baselines for performance off of. No need to just pull #'s out of the ether. Taking a 2 minute tour through some recent yearly stat compilations and it seems that Markus Wheaton was a high side of average WR out of the slot and a mediocre WR when asked to be the explosive vertical element in an offense. Then injuries and cost bounced him right out the of the league.

[Born2Steel]

BUT.....best/worst slot WR based off what exactly? Total yards? YPG? Target/Drop ratio? Too many variables to pick just any one stat and start making a list of best to worst. For instance, take JuJu's stats from the link MojoUW supplied in the post above. What does that same stat line look like without AB and/or Ben on the field? OR with the AZ OL trying to pass block? This really gets silly when trying to justify based purely off of numbers. I'm sure Steelreserve watched Wheaton play a few times and determined he was not one of his all time favorite Steelers based on how he saw Wheaton perform. Stats are not going to change that opinion. IMO, Wheaton's issue was not ability it was he got hurt. 644 yards in 2014 with a catch percentage of 61.6%(pretty good stats), 749 yards in 2015 with a catch percentage of 55.7%(pretty good stats). That is mostly his career as a Steeler, playing in only 3 games after that.

All this to say if the 5-6 WRs that make this team's 53 end up with approx 700 yards each(3500 to 4200 receiving yards) and a catch percentage around 60%, I think we will all be fairly happy as Steelers fans.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

All this to say if the 5-6 WRs that make this team's 53 end up with approx 700 yards each(3500 to 4200 receiving yards) and a catch percentage around 60%, I think we will all be fairly happy as Steelers fans.

Yeah, but really we aren't including what RB's and TE's are catching in terms of yardage as well. Many forget that at one point, Bell was the 2nd leading receiver on the Steelers. If we say between 5WR, 3 TE, 2RB that a 4500 yard passing year is pretty good. You can say that the top 2 receivers may account for 2000 yards and the other 2500 gets mixed between the other 8 catching the football.

I'd be curious to know the last 5 seasons that while AB was mostly the top receiver, then how much did the #2, 3, 4, 5 options achieve? Something tells me the #3 and 4 guys only caught around 500-600 yards worth of passing. Maybe less.

[Fire Goodell]

an aberration, the NFL had no decent defenders those two years.

those were all dong receptions since they weren't against the #1 cb or against double coverage :chuckle:

[polamalubeast]

Yeah, but really we aren't including what RB's and TE's are catching in terms of yardage as well. Many forget that at one point, Bell was the 2nd leading receiver on the Steelers. If we say between 5WR, 3 TE, 2RB that a 4500 yard passing year is pretty good. You can say that the top 2 receivers may account for 2000 yards and the other 2500 gets mixed between the other 8 catching the football.

I'd be curious to know the last 5 seasons that while AB was mostly the top receiver, then how much did the #2, 3, 4, 5 options achieve? Something tells me the #3 and 4 guys only caught around 500-600 yards worth of passing. Maybe less.

JuJu was second in 2017 at 917 yards....Bell was second in target with 106 for 655 yards,3rd on this team.
2016,Bell was second in yards with 616 yards in 12 games...He had 94 targets
Martavis was second in 2015 with 765 yards in 11 games..Wheaton was not far behind at 749 yards in 16 games...Deangelo Williams had 367 yards on 47 targets
2014,Bell was again second in yards with 854 yards on 105 targets

For 2018,Conner had 497 yards in 13 games(71 targets)..Samuels had 199 yards on 29 targets

[teegre]

Since 749 yards is “dogshit”, I started looking at other Steelers’ first three seasons.

(Only three, because Wheaton was injured in season 4, and gone by Season 5).

AB:
dogshit, good, dogshit

Hines Ward:
dogshit, dogshit, dogshit

Martavis Bryant:
dogshit, dogshit, dogshit

Manny Sanders:
dogshit, dogshit, dogshit

James Washington:
dogshit, he’s doomed, cut him now!!!

[polamalubeast]

Some have standard way too high ... It's like when some in the past were not satisfied with T.J Watt or Lamarr Woodley in his peak because he was not as good as James Harrison!

In the case of Wheaton, he was not a star player but it's impossible to have star players in each starter!

If Washington has a season like Wheaton in 2015 (749 yards in 79 targets only) I'll be happy .... Let's not forget that Wheaton stats would have been even better if Ben would not miss 4 games!

- - - Updated - - -

In his first 2 games in 2015 with Ben but without Bell and Bryant,Wheaton had 55 yards vs Pats and 67 yards vs 49ers as second option!...Not bad!

After,Ben was hurt against the rams and Wheaton had a slump, but he was not alone .... It was the same for Antonio Brown since our passing game was brutal with Vick!

[teegre]

If Washington has a season like Wheaton in 2015 (749 yards in 79 targets only) I'll be happy

Exactly!!! For a second-year WR to have 750 yards would be very good.

(We were spoiled by JuJu’s early success.)

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

those were all dong receptions since they weren't against the #1 cb or against double coverage :chuckle:

:rofl: Jamarcus Wheatondong receptions !!!

- - - Updated - - -


JuJu was second in 2017 at 917 yards....Bell was second in target with 106 for 655 yards,3rd on this team.
2016,Bell was second in yards with 616 yards in 12 games...He had 94 targets
Martavis was second in 2015 with 765 yards in 11 games..Wheaton was not far behind at 749 yards in 16 games...Deangelo Williams had 367 yards on 47 targets
2014,Bell was again second in yards with 854 yards on 105 targets

For 2018,Conner had 497 yards in 13 games(71 targets)..Samuels had 199 yards on 29 targets

Thanks for this. Those years that Bell and Bryant were in the 600-765 yards as the #2 receivers are kind of low. I wonder if the #3 receiver is somehow sub-dogshit level on that HOF-dogshit scale Teegre is working on?

[polamalubeast]

Thanks for this. Those years that Bell and Bryant were in the 600-765 yards as the #2 receivers are kind of low. I wonder if the #3 receiver is somehow sub-dogshit level on that HOF-dogshit scale Teegre is working on?


Just to read this article..very interesting

https://www.steelcityunderground.com/2019/05/17/life-after-the-killer-bs-how-will-ben-and-the-offense-perform/


Last year, our 3rd WR with the most yards and target was Ryan Switzer ... The production of our 3rd WR for the next season should be much better.

- - - Updated - - -

Not true that Wheaton had no impact play with us


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmSvCAAQiMI

And 201 yards against the best pass defense in this decade!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RPjkX0sNtY

[GBMelBlount]

He's hungry!!!

Hopefully for more than Taco Bell. :hungry:

[Born2Steel]

Hopefully for more than Taco Bell. :hungry:

Great! Now I'm hungry for Taco Bell. What time does 4th meal start again?

[pepsyman1]

It isn't really that anyone thinks Wheaton is all that great shakes. It is more that the justifications used to downgrad him are seemingly made up out of whole cloth and based on little empirical evidence. I mean that is the cool thing about the NFL, we have how many years and decades of statistics to develop reasonable baselines for performance off of. No need to just pull #'s out of the ether. Taking a 2 minute tour through some recent yearly stat compilations and it seems that Markus Wheaton was a high side of average WR out of the slot and a mediocre WR when asked to be the explosive vertical element in an offense. Then injuries and cost bounced him right out the of the league.

Well summed up. As a slot receiver Wheaton did a pretty good job until injured. Did he cut it as a big vertical threat outside receiver? no. As a whole, he did a decent job for us while he was here. If you figure there are 64 starting wide receivers in the league, his output as a #3 the last 2 full seasons he played was better than a large chunk of the number 2 receivers in the league. No need to rip him.

[steelreserve]

Since 749 yards is “dogshit”, I started looking at other Steelers’ first three seasons.

(Only three, because Wheaton was injured in season 4, and gone by Season 5).

AB:
dogshit, good, dogshit

Hines Ward:
dogshit, dogshit, dogshit

Martavis Bryant:
dogshit, dogshit, dogshit

Manny Sanders:
dogshit, dogshit, dogshit

James Washington:
dogshit, he’s doomed, cut him now!!!

Wheaton's stats weren't dogshit, HE was dogshit. He made very little impact and probably had more yards than he should have for a player of that caliber.

Keep in mind, 700 yards was not standard production for him. That was a career year. The other 5 seasons of his career, he averaged like 150 yards, and exceeded 100 yards in a season exactly ONCE.

If 700 yards is your career high, and a third of it was from one crazy game (which we lost), and the rest is like that, then guess what, you are dogshit. People act like 700 yards was business as usual for him. No, it was the high-water mark for a shitty player, and realistically, he was very lucky it wasn't 500 or 550.

[polamalubeast]

He made very little impact

.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmSvCAAQiMI

[Born2Steel]

Wheaton's stats weren't dogshit, HE was dogshit. He made very little impact and probably had more yards than he should have for a player of that caliber.

Keep in mind, 700 yards was not standard production for him. That was a career year. The other 5 seasons of his career, he averaged like 150 yards, and exceeded 100 yards in a season exactly ONCE.

If 700 yards is your career high, and a third of it was from one crazy game (which we lost), and the rest is like that, then guess what, you are dogshit. People act like 700 yards was business as usual for him. No, it was the high-water mark for a shitty player, and realistically, he was very lucky it wasn't 500 or 550.

You are missing the point that Wheaton only played for 2 seasons and had approx 1400 yards in those 2 seasons. He only played for the Steelers 4 years. His rookie year(12 games 6 recs for 64 yards), 2 productive years(16 games each with53 and 44 recs for 644 and 749 yards), and 3 games in year 4 due to injury(51 yards on 4 recs). After that he went to the Bears and then to the Eagles.

[steelreserve]

Is there any evidence for these blanket statements?

Slot WRs get X yards by showing up.
OLBs get Y sacks by having a pulse.

Using hyperbolic statements backed by nothing other than a strong gut feeling severely undercuts what is otherwise an argument that many would be prone to agree with.

This kinda says that 500 yards puts you around the top 10 in slot WRs league wide. Didn't totally do the prorated math. https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-the-nfls-top-slot-receivers-through-13-weeks-2

It isn't really that anyone thinks Wheaton is all that great shakes. It is more that the justifications used to downgrad him are seemingly made up out of whole cloth and based on little empirical evidence. I mean that is the cool thing about the NFL, we have how many years and decades of statistics to develop reasonable baselines for performance off of. No need to just pull #'s out of the ether. Taking a 2 minute tour through some recent yearly stat compilations and it seems that Markus Wheaton was a high side of average WR out of the slot and a mediocre WR when asked to be the explosive vertical element in an offense. Then injuries and cost bounced him right out the of the league.


It's one of those things that you just know when you're awesome.

But you can kind of reverse engineer things with the same kind of projections. Like for example ... what's the least amount of passing yards you could have as a starting QB for the whole year? Zero yards, right? Well, no, you'd lose your job well before that. What about 3,000 yards? That's actually about right. (Look at last year's stats, low 3000s is where people either missed some games or lost their job https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2018/passing.htm#passing::pass_yds)

So out of that 3,000 yards, how are they split up? Well, what's the worst you can do as a #1 receiver without being hurt or losing your job? 800 yards? That comes out about right too. What's the worst as a #2 WR? Call it 700. Another 400 for your baseline TE and 400 for your baseline RB group, you're at 2,100. So you've got 900 yards to split up among everyone else, which is basically your slot receiver, and the backup TEs, and WRs 4-5-6 who are like the sub-150 yard guys. The slot receiver ought to be getting the most out of that group, by virtue of getting the most playing time and targets. So if you're not pulling 400 yards as a #3 WR, sorry, but you really suck. (Well what if you have a really good #1 or #2 receiver taking more of the yards? Well, then your QB's overall passing yards probably aren't the worst in the league, we're talking about baseline replacement value).

Same idea with OLBs. How many sacks do the worst defenses in the league get per year? Low 30s is pretty typical. So what's the average player's share? About 3 a year, give or take. Well, your DBs probably only get 1 or 2, and the guys whose main job is actually rushing should get more. So 4-5 sacks is what the position is good for even if you are bad. That's also what YOU get by showing up, if you aren't so bad you lose your job.

That's the thing that's left out of these "______th best in the league" stats. People on the bottom half of the list lose their jobs a lot and don't always get a full season's worth of stats. Or sometimes they're down there because they missed games due to injury. You can get "league average" or even slightly "above-average" looking stats (Wheaton's 700-yard fluke) just based on the fact that you didn't get hurt and the coaches left you in!

There might be 100 OLBs who could produce Dupree's 3.5-4 sacks a year, but most of them get yanked halfway for playing like that, so they only get 2.5 sacks. "Dupree is doing better, see!" No, not really. We have a few players like that from time to time, who get THE MAXIMUM time to prove themselves because we want to see them succeed so badly. Wheaton's stats are basically what you get from giving a low-average player extended playing time, and the 700 year was a lucky break.

Back to the point again: If Washington's career turns out like Wheaton's, I would call that a big disappointment. Not really a ton of evidence to go by yet, although a lost year is not necessarily encouraging ... but that is what I hope he does NOT turn out to be.

[hawaiiansteeler]

https://static.clubs.nfl.com/image/private/t_photo_album/f_auto/steelers/qmlljwdli58adffqf64g.jpg

[Mojouw]

The estimation of how many players get benched is pretty far off. I can't think of a team that casts about for starting players like that.

The logic being laid out is sound. But it does not align with what we know actually happens. In other words the NFL is often really illogical.

That's what I kinda think is the problem with any discussion of x player or coach is the z best in the NFL. RARELY are the parameters for that evaluation laid out.

[teegre]

HOF-dogshit scale Teegre is working on?

1. Hall of Famer
2. does not compute
3. does not compute
4. does not compute
5. does not compute
6. does not compute
7. does not compute
8. does not compute
9. dogshit
10. Limas Sweed

[steelreserve]

1. Hall of Famer
2. does not compute
3. does not compute
4. does not compute
5. does not compute
6. does not compute
7. does not compute
8. does not compute
9. dogshit
10. Limas Sweed

You forgot "Hall of Fame dogshit." This rating scale is obviously garbage. Have you ever even been to a football game?

[hawaiiansteeler]

JuJu: James Washington will 'sneak up on everybody'

By Jeremy Bergman
Around The NFL Writer
Published: July 8, 2019

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001035288/article/juju-james-washington-will-sneak-up-on-everybody

[86WARD]

JuJu: James Washington will 'sneak up on everybody'

By Jeremy Bergman
Around The NFL Writer
Published: July 8, 2019

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001035288/article/juju-james-washington-will-sneak-up-on-everybody

That would be nice. I think Moncrief is going to do a little sneaking of his own.

[teegre]

I heard that Washington can fly...

[hawaiiansteeler]

James Washington happy to be “just thinking about playing football”

Posted by Josh Alper on July 9, 2019

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/07/09/james-washington-happy-to-be-just-thinking-about-playing-football/

[HollywoodSteel]

I heard that Washington can fly...

I believe that was R. Kelly.

[hawaiiansteeler]

James Washington’s Offseason Positional Self-Scouting Included Learning QB Perspective

By Dave Bryan
Posted on July 9, 2019

https://steelersdepot.com/2019/07/james-washingtons-offseason-positional-self-scouting-included-learning-qb-perspective/

[teegre]

I believe that was R. Kelly.

When I hear the name “R. Kelly” all that I can think of is Dave Chappelle’s impersonation of him.

:lol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eafRE74JGZ8&app=desktop&persist_app=1

[HollywoodSteel]

When I hear the name “R. Kelly” all that I can think of is Dave Chappelle’s impersonation of him.

:lol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eafRE74JGZ8&app=desktop&persist_app=1

I think of this:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qAtvxFFsoeg

[DesertSteel]

I heard that Washington can fly...
I heard he can chop down a cherry tree.

[pczach]

I heard he can chop down a cherry tree.


I heard he could never tell a lie and he has wooden teeth.

[DesertSteel]

I heard he could never tell a lie and he has wooden teeth.
Super Bowl!!