A Reminder Landry Jones Was (In A Way) A Good Choice

[polamalubeast]

E.J. Manuel announced his retirement yesterday. On the surface, that shouldn’t mean much to you except “wow, he was still in the league?” Here’s why it’s relevant. It basically cements Landry Jones as, and I can’t believe I’m saying this, maybe the best quarterback of the 2013 draft class.

Seriously.

For starters, Jones is the only QB selected that year to have more winds than losses.

Mike Glennon: 6-16
Geno Smith: 12-19
EJ Manuel: 6-12
Matt Barkley: 2-5
Landry Jones: 3-2

Jones also has the highest completion percentage, touchdown rate, and QB rating than the others, too. By no means is this to say that Jones is a great or even good quarterback. It just puts in perspective how terrible that draft class was and for the Steelers, relatively speaking, they made an ok pick.

read more

https://steelersdepot.com/2019/05/a-reminder-landry-jones-was-in-a-way-a-good-choice/

[zulater]

In my opinion cutting Landry might have cost us the playoffs in a sense. I have little doubt he could have finished off Oakland. Dobbs may or may not eventually be as good or better. But to me that wasn't the point. Carrying two developmental qb's on a playoff ready team was a critical coaching error. You have to have an NFL ready back up on your roster. People play down the talent of Charlie Batch. And he was no great shakes. But he saved more than one season by being just good enough to eke out that necessary win when Ben missed a game or more. I think Landry showed us in the season finale of 17 with many of the Steelers best players sitting out the game that he could beat a team of the Raiders class.

[st33lersguy]

Lol, landry was horrible. He in no way helped the franchise at all. Being in a terrible class doesn't make him any better. This thread title should be filed under comedy black and gold

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Steelers fault Dobbs was bad in Oakland. They would run the first two downs and throw on 3rd and Oakland knew it.

[Edman]

Landry Jones is a great backup to have when your team is in contention and "win-now" mode. He knows the Offense and won't lose the game for you. Landry is the perfect backup to Ben when the Quarterback had his weapons and the team's goal was in sight. The Steelers, as it was made abundantly clear in 2018, are not in that mode anymore wether they like it or not. The Super Bowl Window slammed shut against the Jaguars and arguably earlier, when Jesee James' catch didn't count.

Ben complained last offseason that Rudolph's drafting doesn't help the team "win now", well that's the idea. "Win Now" is over.

With the teams' arrow likely pointing down in 2019, Landry is no longer needed. The team doesn't need to waste a quarterback slot on guy who clearly isn't the future or the next step to Ben. They're starting a QB competition between Dobbs and Rudolph. Like it or not, the Steelers have to be prepared for Ben's retirement. With Le'Veon and AB gone, it's now more apparent than ever.

[polamalubeast]

The super bowl window means nothing, when we have never been close to winning an AFC title game during the Killer B era.

They had the talent, but never proved it on the field when it mattered.

[DesertSteel]

Steelers fault Dobbs was bad in Oakland. They would run the first two downs and throw on 3rd and Oakland knew it.
Dobbs sucked in that game dude.

[polamalubeast]

Steelers fault Dobbs was bad in Oakland. They would run the first two downs and throw on 3rd and Oakland knew it.

Not true...Just to look in the play by play

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201812090rai.htm#all_pbp

[steelreserve]

In my opinion cutting Landry might have cost us the playoffs in a sense. I have little doubt he could have finished off Oakland. Dobbs may or may not eventually be as good or better. But to me that wasn't the point. Carrying two developmental qb's on a playoff ready team was a critical coaching error. You have to have an NFL ready back up on your roster. People play down the talent of Charlie Batch. And he was no great shakes. But he saved more than one season by being just good enough to eke out that necessary win when Ben missed a game or more. I think Landry showed us in the season finale of 17 with many of the Steelers best players sitting out the game that he could beat a team of the Raiders class.

Rudolph was game-ready or he was a bad pick. If you are going to be a starting NFL quarterback at some point in your career, either you "get it" or you don't, and that's from your very first game of your rookie season. No one ever became a good QB by sitting on the bench who would've sucked if he was just thrown into a game. Since we are hoping Rudolph will be an eventual starter, it was our mistake for not having him suited up. Like, what's our plan, don't even find out if he's any good?

As for the original post that Jones was a relatively "good" pick because the crop of QBs sucked that year, it reminds me of a quote that some asshole said once ... "Smearing mud on other people's fins doesn't help you swim any better." That's about how the Jones pick turned out.

[hawaiiansteeler]

As for the original post that Jones was a relatively "good" pick because the crop of QBs sucked that year, it reminds me of a quote that some asshole said once ... "Smearing mud on other people's fins doesn't help you swim any better." That's about how the Jones pick turned out.

Jones just happened to be the tallest person at a midget convention...

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Dobbs sucked in that game dude.

His legs are his best asset. He isn't an NFL caliber QB, so I hope either he improves in his 3rd season or that Rudolph grabs the reigns as the #2 QB, so that Dobbs can get on with his lifes work.

[Hawkman]

The super bowl window means nothing, when we have never been close to winning an AFC title game during the Killer B era.

They had the talent, but never proved it on the field when it mattered.

They’ve got to be in there to prove it...ie the Denver playoff game where Bryant was both leading rusher and receiver, because both Bell and Brown were hurt. No fault of there’s just what it was. DHB was the second leading receiver, and we were one fumble away by a backup RB from going to the AFCC game.

[st33lersguy]

I figured the unwarranted landry jones adulation would end when he was cut. Sadly looks like I am wrong. The fact that he went unemployed for months at a time, failed to stick around in JACKSONVILLE of all places and only recently signed with flipping Oakland to presumably be at the bottom of their QB depth says everything

[86WARD]

Is Jones on a current roster?

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I figured the unwarranted landry jones adulation would end when he was cut. Sadly looks like I am wrong. The fact that he went unemployed for months at a time, failed to stick around in JACKSONVILLE of all places and only recently signed with flipping Oakland to presumably be at the bottom of their QB depth says everything

Unwarranted Josh Dobbs adulation has taken over as a replacement.

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Is Jones on a current roster?

Raiders roster. Competing with Mike Glennon and Nathan Peterman for backup job.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Raiders roster. Competing with Mike Glennon and Nathan Peterman for backup job.

I LOVE Nathan Peterman. my fantasy defense would always score over 20 points against him.

[HollywoodSteel]

Rudolph was game-ready or he was a bad pick. If you are going to be a starting NFL quarterback at some point in your career, either you "get it" or you don't, and that's from your very first game of your rookie season. No one ever became a good QB by sitting on the bench who would've sucked if he was just thrown into a game. Since we are hoping Rudolph will be an eventual starter, it was our mistake for not having him suited up. Like, what's our plan, don't even find out if he's any good?

As for the original post that Jones was a relatively "good" pick because the crop of QBs sucked that year, it reminds me of a quote that some asshole said once ... "Smearing mud on other people's fins doesn't help you swim any better." That's about how the Jones pick turned out.

I’m not sure what you mean. You believe that if a QB isn’t great on his first day in the NFL he’ll never be any good? You don’t think it’s possible that if Mason Rudolph couldn’t earn his way to the top of the depth chart as rookie he can ever be an NFL caliber quarterback?

Maybe it’s true that a QB would get better faster through playing than by sitting behind another QB for awhile, but our number one priority can’t be to make Mason Rudolph good as fast as possible. It’s to win games. And the coaches obviously believed that last year Josh Dobbs gave us a better chance to win games as our #2. It’s certainly possible that their assessment was wrong, but the point still stands that giving Rudolph game experience just to make him better faster can’t be our top priority.

Besides, how do your two premises work together? If Rudolph is indeed going to be an NFL caliber, won’t he just prove it the first time he hits the field no matter how long he sits or plays before that? He’ll be game ready or he was a bad pick.

I don’t want to put words into mouth. Maybe I’m misunderstanding your meaning.

Are you saying that Rudolph needs playing time to get good, or are you saying he’s either already good enough to play or he’ll never be good and it was a bad pick?

Btw, I totally agree with your point about Jones. Just because the rest of his draft class might have been worse, it in no way proves that he is a worthy NFL QB.

[Edman]

Rudolph was game-ready or he was a bad pick. If you are going to be a starting NFL quarterback at some point in your career, either you "get it" or you don't, and that's from your very first game of your rookie season. No one ever became a good QB by sitting on the bench who would've sucked if he was just thrown into a game.


A certain Steelers Quarterback was supposed to sit his entire rookie year behind Tommy Maddox. He was thrown into the fire in Baltimore when Maddox got injured during a blowout, then proceeded to throw two picks including a Pick Six when he came in.

That dude just didn't "get it".

[steelreserve]

Are you saying that Rudolph needs playing time to get good, or are you saying he’s either already good enough to play or he’ll never be good and it was a bad pick?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Either he's good enough to play QB or he isn't, and farting around for a couple years isn't going to change that. If he's any good, you could throw him in a game right now and he'll figure shit out; if he's not good enough, he won't. It doesn't matter whether his first game action is tomorrow, or 3 years from now after lots of "development," the result will be the same. The only difference is how much time we spend sweating over it.

This is not to be confused with "Rudolph should be able to win the starting job," or "Rudolph should get some playing time over a healthy Ben in order to give him game experience." But he absolutely should be the first guy off the bench when the backup needs to come into the game. Throw him into the fire, it's not going to ruin him.

By the way, I'm still mad about that Star Wars script never getting picked up, I mean what the fuck?

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A certain Steelers Quarterback was supposed to sit his entire rookie year behind Tommy Maddox. He was thrown into the fire in Baltimore when Maddox got injured during a blowout, then proceeded to throw two picks including a Pick Six when he came in.

That dude just didn't "get it".

If I recall, he went 13-1 that year and definitely got it.

[polamalubeast]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Either he's good enough to play QB or he isn't, and farting around for a couple years isn't going to change that. If he's any good, you could throw him in a game right now and he'll figure shit out; if he's not good enough, he won't. It doesn't matter whether his first game action is tomorrow, or 3 years from now after lots of "development," the result will be the same. The only difference is how much time we spend sweating over it.

This is not to be confused with "Rudolph should be able to win the starting job," or "Rudolph should get some playing time over a healthy Ben in order to give him game experience." But he absolutely should be the first guy off the bench when the backup needs to come into the game. Throw him into the fire, it's not going to ruin him.

By the way, I'm still mad about that Star Wars script never getting picked up, I mean what the fuck?

.


I agree for the most part, but we can see some exceptions

Aaron Rodgers was far from ready in 2005 and 2006 ... Rodgers was brutal in pre-season in 2005 and 2006, which was important games for him, since it was the only time of the season that Rodgers had the chance to play .. ..But in 2007, Rodgers started to have a lot of improvement in his play

For Ruldolph, he could be very good, as he could be awful, I do not know, but for me he is a wasted pick, since it would be very surprising that he is the QB when Ben retires and we do not know when that will be the case, but very good chance that the Ruldolph rookie contract will be over without him being the full-time starter before, unless Roethlisberger has a serious injury, which has not happen since 2015.

[steelreserve]

I agree for the most part, but we can see some exceptions

Aaron Rodgers was far from ready in 2005 and 2006 ... Rodgers was brutal in pre-season in 2005 and 2006, which was important games for him, since it was the only time of the season that Rodgers had the chance to play .. ..But in 2007, Rodgers started to have a lot of improvement in his play

For Ruldolph, he could be very good, as he could be awful, I do not know, but for me he is a wasted pick, since it would be very surprising that he is the QB when Ben retires and we do not know when that will be the case, but very good chance that the Ruldolph rookie contract will be over without him being the full-time starter before, unless Roethlisberger has a serious injury, which has not happen since 2015.

I knew someone would say Aaron Rodgers. But I don't think is deal was that he "wasn't ready" so much as he was stuck behind Brett Favre. I used to follow Cal football pretty closely when I lived around there, and he was as much of a polished, NFL-ready QB as anyone had ever seen - think Andrew Luck or Jared Goff. I watched those guys play a lot too, and you could just tell they knew something the other prospects didn't. (Boy, were the 49ers stupid for passing on Rodgers, along with 15 or 20 other teams.) Anyway, I would bet you a railroad car full of dogshit that if Rodgers had needed to come in because Favre went down for 4 or 5 games, he would've quickly figured it out.

Anyway, the point is that with any successful NFL quarterback, the time when they are "ready" is basically the time when they are first pressed into more than garbage-time action. Maybe it takes a game or two of on-the-job learning, but if you get it, you get it. I can't think of many, if there are any at all, who failed from being thrown to the wolves too early ... although there are sure a lot who did the reverse - spent years "developing" and sucked anyway. Yes, there are lots of QBs who were thrown to the wolves and failed, but that was because they sucked to begin with.

[Craic]

In all honesty, it looked as though they tied his arms around his back before going in. I wonder what if the story would have been the same if they just said, go out and play ball. (Assuming they didn't.)

[Mojouw]

Goff was not ready his rookie year. Then he was in a SB.

Almost like there is no absolutes?

Might be useful to split the discussion between first round guys and later round guys.

[DesertSteel]

I'd prefer Landry Jones over Dobbs as the #3.

[pepsyman1]

I'd prefer Landry Jones over Dobbs as the #3.


I'd prefer a tackling dummy over Landry Jones....lol

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I'd prefer Landry Jones over Dobbs as the #3.

I'd prefer George Kittle was drafted in the 4th round instead of Josh Dobbs. :doh:

[Shoes]

I'd prefer George Kittle was drafted in the 4th round instead of Josh Dobbs. :doh:

Oh man if it was only so.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Oh man if it was only so.

I know. Its not like the Steelers needed some TE depth with that 4th round pick.

But instead they took the 5th best QB that attended the Senior Bowl that year, so he could spend his 5 year NFL career not contributing to a team. :doh:

[DesertSteel]

The hate for backup QBs in this forum is laughable... When Ben retires it's gonna be cRaZy...

[Fire Goodell]

All this is a moot point. If we kept John Kuhn, we would have won 9 super bowls

[tube517]

All this is a moot point. If we kept John Kuhn, we would have won 9 super bowls

This right here. :nod:



Now, would Cowher get the credit for those 9 SB's since Kuhn was a Cowher guy?

[GoSlash27]

I figured the unwarranted landry jones adulation would end when he was cut. Sadly looks like I am wrong.

It's not 'adulation' it's just objectivity. Jones was a solid backup, but wasn't going to be the future of this franchise. Me *personally*, I would've preferred picking up C.J. Beathard from SF as the backup because he fits our system. But they didn't, they let Jones go, and went with younger talent *shrug*... Maybe one of these younger kids is "it". Maybe not.

[steelreserve]

It's not 'adulation' it's just objectivity. Jones was a solid backup, but wasn't going to be the future of this franchise. Me *personally*, I would've preferred picking up C.J. Beathard from SF as the backup because he fits our system. But they didn't, they let Jones go, and went with younger talent *shrug*... Maybe one of these younger kids is "it". Maybe not.

I don't agree with this at all. The guy had one good game - one good half, really - and mostly sucked horse cock after that. Being the perpetual Week 17 Cleveland Warrior may have made his lifetime stats look almost acceptable, but the guy was not solid by any stretch of the imagination.

[pczach]

This right here. :nod:



Now, would Cowher get the credit for those 9 SB's since Kuhn was a Cowher guy?


Why wouldn't he? He gets credit for James Harrison even though he cut him 6 times.

[GoSlash27]

I don't agree with this at all. The guy had one good game - one good half, really - and mostly sucked horse cock after that. Being the perpetual Week 17 Cleveland Warrior may have made his lifetime stats look almost acceptable, but the guy was not solid by any stretch of the imagination.

I suspect you and I are operating under very different definitions of "solid backup". I don't expect a backup QB to play as well as a starter or even get good stats. I just expect him to be able to step in at a moment's notice with minimal practice, hold the team together, know the full playbook, and not make dumb mistakes that cost the game. AFAIC Jones did that well.
Now... compared to an average starting QB, yeah. I agree he "sucked horse cock".

[Fire Goodell]

Landry Jones, eh. Perennial average backup and we know that's what he is and always will be. Teams weren't necessarily beating the door down to sign him, so most of the league doesn't even consider him a good backup. Good backups don't have a problem finding a team. Heck even RG3 was picked up faster lol :chuckle:

I like our current QB stable, I like having a potential starter in waiting (or two) over well, horse gobbler jones lol

[86WARD]

Landry Jones, eh. Perennial average backup and we know that's what he is and always will be. Teams weren't necessarily beating the door down to sign him, so most of the league doesn't even consider him a good backup. Good backups don't have a problem finding a team. Heck even RG3 was picked up faster lol :chuckle:

I like our current QB stable, I like having a potential starter in waiting (or two) over well, horse gobbler jones lol

That’s being generous. When the Steelers let him go last year, nobody rushed out to sign him as a back up or third string...lol. He’s another one of those players that sat on the Steelers roster that 31 other teams had zero interest in.

[polamalubeast]

That’s being generous. When the Steelers let him go last year, nobody rushed out to sign him as a back up or third string...lol. He’s another one of those players that sat on the Steelers roster that 31 other teams had zero interest in.

Yes, but at the same time, Jones was cut just before the season and it's long for a QB to learn a new playbook and to have good chemistry with your new receivers.

[silver & black]

So... you want him back? :wink02:

[teegre]

Landry Jones was all brain, no balls.

Landry absolutely knew where to throw the ball, but he was hesitant... which led to late throws (which often looked like they were going to be INTs). The few times when he just dropped back and chucked it, he looked good. Alas, those moments were few & far between.

He’ll make a good QB coach.

[hawaiiansteeler]

So... you want him back? :wink02:

:toofunny:

[steelreserve]

I suspect you and I are operating under very different definitions of "solid backup". I don't expect a backup QB to play as well as a starter or even get good stats. I just expect him to be able to step in at a moment's notice with minimal practice, hold the team together, know the full playbook, and not make dumb mistakes that cost the game. AFAIC Jones did that well.
Now... compared to an average starting QB, yeah. I agree he "sucked horse cock".

I don't know, man. In my mind, a solid backup can actually move the offense some, and make a few plays on his own. Not just "don't make any horrible game-losing mistakes." Jones's horrible game-losing mistake was that he could hardly put together a decent drive, and the offense would struggle all day to maybe grind out 13 or so points. It wasn't a single dramatic mistake you could point to, he just sucked, and it was just as bad as throwing a couple of ill-timed picks per game.

"But wait, no QB except a top-10 starter can do those things!!! You're completely unreasonable to expect it from a backup!" I can just hear people lining up to say.

Really, am I that unreasonable, though? When exactly did it become written in stone that everyone except a franchise QB had to be utterly, mind-bendingly incompetent, to the point where he's having a career day if he doesn't trip over his own feet? And THAT'S supposed to be the standard expectation for a backup? Sounds like those people have a problem with expectations, not me.

[teegre]

Craig Whelihan was lambasted by Chargers fans for years.

He used to work out at my gym (and he was seriously one of the nicest people I’ve ever met) and people would say to him how he “sucked”. He’d laugh it off, and self deprecate... and everyone went about their business.

Well, one day, someone struck a nerve in Craig. He told the person to open the back window of their car. Then, from 50 yards away, Craig three a spiral right in the window, into the back seat, without going out the other side. Think about how good you’d have to be to throw a ball like that. Really. (The derisor quickly shut up and left.)

SUMMATION:
Landry Jones sucks compared to Big Ben. But, he’s still a better QB than 99% of the QBs to ever play in college... which is better than 99.999% of the people any of us has ever been around.

[steelreserve]

Craig Whelihan was lambasted by Chargers fans for years.

He used to work out at my gym (and he was seriously one of the nicest people I’ve ever met) and people would say to him how he “sucked”. He’d laugh it off, and self deprecate... and everyone went about their business.

Well, one day, someone struck a nerve in Craig. He told the person to open the back window of their car. Then, from 50 yards away, Craig three a spiral right in the window, into the back seat, without going out the other side. Think about how good you’d have to be to throw a ball like that. Really. (The derisor quickly shut up and left.)

SUMMATION:
Landry Jones sucks compared to Big Ben. But, he’s still a better QB than 99% of the QBs to ever play in college... which is better than 99.999% of the people any of us has ever been around.

I'm sure he's a very good quarterback in the absolute sense. But he sucks compared to other professional football players, which is what matters here.

[GoSlash27]

I'm sure he's a very good quarterback in the absolute sense. But he sucks compared to other professional football players, which is what matters here.
It does... but not in the way you think. If he didn't suck compared to other pro football players, he'd be a starter himself. Or at least a guy good enough to be a starter who's stuck behind another starter. That's a bad situation for the team, because you wind up with either a QB controversy or a guy who's looking for the door, not a guy who embraces the role of backup.

[86WARD]

Yes, but at the same time, Jones was cut just before the season and it's long for a QB to learn a new playbook and to have good chemistry with your new receivers.

Sitting on a bench, he has plenty of time to learn a new playbook. Doesn’t take that long...it’s not easy, but it shouldn’t take too long to learn it as a QB.

[Mojouw]

I don't know, man. In my mind, a solid backup can actually move the offense some, and make a few plays on his own. Not just "don't make any horrible game-losing mistakes." Jones's horrible game-losing mistake was that he could hardly put together a decent drive, and the offense would struggle all day to maybe grind out 13 or so points. It wasn't a single dramatic mistake you could point to, he just sucked, and it was just as bad as throwing a couple of ill-timed picks per game.

"But wait, no QB except a top-10 starter can do those things!!! You're completely unreasonable to expect it from a backup!" I can just hear people lining up to say.

Really, am I that unreasonable, though? When exactly did it become written in stone that everyone except a franchise QB had to be utterly, mind-bendingly incompetent, to the point where he's having a career day if he doesn't trip over his own feet? And THAT'S supposed to be the standard expectation for a backup? Sounds like those people have a problem with expectations, not me.
Everyone would like to live in a world where your expectations are met. They are nice ones to have. But look around the league and stare in horror at the absolute garbage that is the back-up QB position. An NFL team is actually contemplating having Nathan Peterman be its #2.

Landry Jones was not that good. But he was far from the rotten bottom of the barrel that most teams are stuck with.

The overall crappiness of back-up Qbs andthe struggles of starters in the NFL is a serious problem. I refuse to believe that there are only ever like 2 dozen people on the planet who can effectively play NFL QB. I’m not sure that I’m ready to annoint NFL quarterback as the harderst thing people have ever done. I suspect it is more that coaches suck at adapting and scouts stink at finding guys that can play.

[steelreserve]

It does... but not in the way you think. If he didn't suck compared to other pro football players, he'd be a starter himself. Or at least a guy good enough to be a starter who's stuck behind another starter. That's a bad situation for the team, because you wind up with either a QB controversy or a guy who's looking for the door, not a guy who embraces the role of backup.

No, that's exactly what you want. A guy good enough that he will look for a starting job somewhere. Yes, you'll have to look for a new guy every few years. But guess what, when you have a shitty backup, you also have to look for a new guy every few years, because he sucks and you get fed up with it.

The net of it is that you will be in the exact same situation and either have a backup who can win the occasional game or a backup who can't. In what clown world is it preferable to have the guy who can't?

[polamalubeast]

No, that's exactly what you want. A guy good enough that he will look for a starting job somewhere. Yes, you'll have to look for a new guy every few years. But guess what, when you have a shitty backup, you also have to look for a new guy every few years, because he sucks and you get fed up with it.

The net of it is that you will be in the exact same situation and either have a backup who can win the occasional game or a backup who can't. In what clown world is it preferable to have the guy who can't?

I think you would like a QB backup like Ryan Fitzpatrick.

The problem with that is that it would cost at least $ 5-7 million per year ... would you be willing to pay this price to a QB who would have a good chance of being on the bench in the entire year?

Also his QB will always sign with teams with starters who are close to losing their job.

[steelreserve]

The overall crappiness of back-up Qbs andthe struggles of starters in the NFL is a serious problem. I refuse to believe that there are only ever like 2 dozen people on the planet who can effectively play NFL QB. I’m not sure that I’m ready to annoint NFL quarterback as the harderst thing people have ever done. I suspect it is more that coaches suck at adapting and scouts stink at finding guys that can play.

Yes, I refuse to believe that also. It was not that long ago that I can remember many (if not most) teams having backups who could come in and run the offense competently. Now it's almost none, and any time the backup comes in, the offense is stuck and you're lucky if they don't get booed off the field. It never used to be that way, and it makes no sense that the general talent level of available QBs has gone off a cliff for no reason.

If I had to guess what changed, it's that there is so much hype (and money) surrounding the position that no one is willing to take chances. There is an almost cult-like importance placed on The Starter, with a capital T and a capital S, and he is beyond sacrosanct unless something has gone horribly, horribly wrong. Pulling him out of a game for performance reasons is, like, a BIG DEAL that everyone will be talking about on ESPN that night, and your job is on the line for it. Like, unless you just broke the all-time record for interceptions or lowest QB rating, you are not getting taken out just because you are having a bad game. When that kind of thing used to happen all the time, even to the great QBs sometimes.

Then on top of that, even practices are so scrutinized, down to the last detail, that you have this ultra-stratification about who is getting the first-team reps and who's in the game plan and who's not, and who's running drills with whom - and the growing restrictions on practice time (14 padded practices a year, really?) probably don't help either. Basically, the super-hyped QB culture means no one will take any risks, and if you thought highly of a guy, you.will exhaust EVERY opportunity for him to prove himself. And so much importance is placed on the position that people are afraid to let go of BACKUPS without running the full due process, and if you're looking for a backup, the safe move is to find an existing backup even if he sucked, not take a chance on an unknown. So, far fewer QBs get a real look, and unless you have a pedigree, you probably don't even get a real shot in practice.

So ironically, with 10 times the attention, 10 times the money, and 10 times the draft status going toward the position, the result is way less QBs getting a legitimate opportunity, which means way less are going to be any good.

I guess this is another way of saying that coaches and For are no better at evaluating that "special something" that makes a good QB than they were 25 years ago ... but now that they make a big show of it, it slows down the process, so the only effect is that you're choosing from a smaller pool of QBs, so of course you will find fewer good ones. If you haven't actually refined your methods to get any better at it, you're just talking a lot and running around for nothing.

tl;dr - people still have no idea what makes QBs succeed or fail, but they like to pretend they do, so their excessive gyrations have gotten in the way.

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I think you would like a QB backup like Ryan Fitzpatrick.

The problem with that is that it would cost at least $ 5-7 million per year ... would you be willing to pay this price to a QB who would have a good chance of being on the bench in the entire year?

Also his QB will always sign with teams with starters who are close to losing their job.

This is the level of backup you should be TRYING for. You don't spend $7 million on one, so you draft them instead, or you sign an unproven guy with an unknown ceiling. If that doesn't work out, you try again with a different guy. That's the key point, you try again. You do NOT get stuck on Landry Jones for four or five years.

[polamalubeast]

This is the level of backup you should be TRYING for. You don't spend $7 million on one, so you draft them instead, or you sign an unproven guy with an unknown ceiling. If that doesn't work out, you try again with a different guy. That's the key point, you try again. You do NOT get stuck on Landry Jones for four or five years.

That's what the steelers tried to do with Dobbs and Rudolph in the last few years ... We will see if it will work or not.

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Also, for a QB, it's important to be in a good situation to have success.

Patrick Mahommes, a lot of talent, but he was in a great situation with Andy Reid who had success with several QB.Jared Goff .... Terrible situation with Jeff Fisher in his rookie year, but after he is much better with Sean McVay.

It is very important for a young QB to be in a good situation.

[Fire Goodell]

It does... but not in the way you think. If he didn't suck compared to other pro football players, he'd be a starter himself. Or at least a guy good enough to be a starter who's stuck behind another starter. That's a bad situation for the team, because you wind up with either a QB controversy or a guy who's looking for the door, not a guy who embraces the role of backup.

I disagree, that's not a bad situation for the team. I'd rather have a Steve Young or Aaron Rodgers on the bench over say, Tee Martin or Landry Jones :chuckle:

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

This is the level of backup you should be TRYING for. You don't spend $7 million on one, so you draft them instead, or you sign an unproven guy with an unknown ceiling. If that doesn't work out, you try again with a different guy. That's the key point, you try again. You do NOT get stuck on Landry Jones for four or five years.

Yes, but could have found other journeyman backups at a reasonable price instead of wasting a 4th round pick on Josh Dobbs, when they could have drafted a position of need at TE like George Kittle with that pick instead.

Jones salary for 2017 was $1.9million. Hardly a number that was stressing the cap. I would still rather have had Jones or a FA backup at $2million and TE Kittle on the roster, instead of the alternative of Dobbs carrying a clipboard and the TE group of McDonald, Grimble, Gentry. Dobbs is terrible.

[86WARD]

A good back up QB should cost $4-$7M and you want that guy to be able to play .500 ball over a limited time until the starter returns. If you want a backup QB that’s good, you have to pay. Landry Jones was a younger version of an old Charlie Batch. He was here because Ben was comfortable with him and because he has a football head. He couldn’t make the throws or execute the plays. He knew what he was supposed to do but couldn’t do it physically.

[steelreserve]

Yes, but could have found other journeyman backups at a reasonable price instead of wasting a 4th round pick on Josh Dobbs, when they could have drafted a position of need at TE like George Kittle with that pick instead.

Jones salary for 2017 was $1.9million. Hardly a number that was stressing the cap. I would still rather have had Jones or a FA backup at $2million and TE Kittle on the roster, instead of the alternative of Dobbs carrying a clipboard and the TE group of McDonald, Grimble, Gentry. Dobbs is terrible.

I would tend to agree with all of that, only with the added stipulation that I'd rather have spent the $2 million on anyone BUT Jones.

I mean, $2 million for a guy who you already know is going to suck, or $2 million for Player X, who will probably suck but might not. I'll take Player X every time.

It's like, we have this thing with certain players who are NOTHING SPECIAL, but half the fan base (and apparently the FO) goes hysterical over who we could find to replace them. Any dumbass who's looking to change teams, that's who. There is NO value to us in keeping guys who are basically at the skill floor for staying employed. Find another guy and he sucks too? Oh well, you're no worse off than when you started. Maybe you get lucky, though. Quantity over quality is what matters when you're cycling through those end-of-the-roster guys, because there ain't much quality down there, only luck.

A certain pair of outside linebackers come to mind here ... I'll just call the first one "B.D." and then a certain guy whose name starts with a C, ends with an O, and has "hickill" in the middle.

Hell, you could also say Grimble is one of those, and part of the reason holding the TE group back. (The guy we just drafted will likely be another).

Dobbs I can't completely fault them for - at least they were trying to take a chance at getting someone better in there. But if they cannot bring themselves to move on, now that it's becoming clear what we have, then they have got to be fuckin stupid.

[steelreserve]

A good back up QB should cost $4-$7M and you want that guy to be able to play .500 ball over a limited time until the starter returns. If you want a backup QB that’s good, you have to pay. Landry Jones was a younger version of an old Charlie Batch. He was here because Ben was comfortable with him and because he has a football head. He couldn’t make the throws or execute the plays. He knew what he was supposed to do but couldn’t do it physically.

Be that as it may - was Landry Jones a "good choice?"

Was Charlie Batch good to have around at the very end when he was completely broken down, or was he a liability at that point?

I mean, look, I know draft picks are not gonna come out perfect every time, backup QBs are backups for a reason, and mid-round draft picks spent on backup QBs should have mild expectations to say the least. But let's call it what it is, a swing and a miss.

I am not even upset that we missed. We rolled the dice with Jones and we lost 5 bucks - so what, it happens. But it was not, by any stretch of the imagination, a "good choice." (Also, the other thing is that with these players, we tend to roll the dice and lose $5, then turn it into a $100 loss by staying at the table too long. But I kind of went into that above already in a different post.)

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I would tend to agree with all of that, only with the added stipulation that I'd rather have spent the $2 million on anyone BUT Jones.

I mean, $2 million for a guy who you already know is going to suck, or $2 million for Player X, who will probably suck but might not. I'll take Player X every time.

It's like, we have this thing with certain players who are NOTHING SPECIAL, but half the fan base (and apparently the FO) goes hysterical over who we could find to replace them. Any dumbass who's looking to change teams, that's who. There is NO value to us in keeping guys who are basically at the skill floor for staying employed. Find another guy and he sucks too? Oh well, you're no worse off than when you started. Maybe you get lucky, though. Quantity over quality is what matters when you're cycling through those end-of-the-roster guys, because there ain't much quality down there, only luck.

A certain pair of outside linebackers come to mind here ... I'll just call the first one "B.D." and then a certain guy whose name starts with a C, ends with an O, and has "hickill" in the middle.

Hell, you could also say Grimble is one of those, and part of the reason holding the TE group back. (The guy we just drafted will likely be another).

Dobbs I can't completely fault them for - at least they were trying to take a chance at getting someone better in there. But if they cannot bring themselves to move on, now that it's becoming clear what we have, then they have got to be fuckin stupid.

I am all for bringing in somebody young with upside rather than vets who have reached your ceiling, but in the case of backup QB, I think the Steelers had much more pressing needs in the 4th round than Dobbs at backup QB. Not drafting Dobbs and having Jones, another vet or even Rudolph last season as backup QB, but with George Kittle, Damonte Kazee or Desmond King on the team ….would make the Steelers better.

Josh Dobbs was the 5th best QB at the Senior Bowl. Nate Peterman, Antonio Pipkin, Davis Webb and CJ Beathard looked better than Dobbs. Dobbs was so brutal in the Raiders game and I bet even Jones could have managed to move the offense to some points, given his knowledge of the offense and NFL experience.

Was Landry Jones a good QB? Good enough to be an inexpensive backup, but not somebody that could be the future franchise QB. I think Rudolph could have the upside that neither Jones nor Dobbs has. Dobbs was not BPA, but rather a reach for a 6th round QB in the 4th, when the Steelers didn't need a 6th round talent at QB.

[86WARD]

Be that as it may - was Landry Jones a "good choice?"

Was Charlie Batch good to have around at the very end when he was completely broken down, or was he a liability at that point?

I mean, look, I know draft picks are not gonna come out perfect every time, backup QBs are backups for a reason, and mid-round draft picks spent on backup QBs should have mild expectations to say the least. But let's call it what it is, a swing and a miss.

I am not even upset that we missed. We rolled the dice with Jones and we lost 5 bucks - so what, it happens. But it was not, by any stretch of the imagination, a "good choice." (Also, the other thing is that with these players, we tend to roll the dice and lose $5, then turn it into a $100 loss by staying at the table too long. But I kind of went into that above already in a different post.)

Jones - No. Batch (because Maddox/Leftwich were there as well) - Yes.

[steelreserve]

I am all for bringing in somebody young with upside rather than vets who have reached your ceiling, but in the case of backup QB, I think the Steelers had much more pressing needs in the 4th round than Dobbs at backup QB. Not drafting Dobbs and having Jones, another vet or even Rudolph last season as backup QB, but with George Kittle, Damonte Kazee or Desmond King on the team ….would make the Steelers better.

Josh Dobbs was the 5th best QB at the Senior Bowl. Nate Peterman, Antonio Pipkin, Davis Webb and CJ Beathard looked better than Dobbs. Dobbs was so brutal in the Raiders game and I bet even Jones could have managed to move the offense to some points, given his knowledge of the offense and NFL experience.

Was Landry Jones a good QB? Good enough to be an inexpensive backup, but not somebody that could be the future franchise QB. I think Rudolph could have the upside that neither Jones nor Dobbs has. Dobbs was not BPA, but rather a reach for a 6th round QB in the 4th, when the Steelers didn't need a 6th round talent at QB.

Yeah, if you think we spent too much on Dobbs, that's one thing I can totally get behind. Jones needed to go, though. Cheap veteran, 6th-round draft pick plus an UDFA competing for the third spot or something ... I mean, you are not gonna do that much worse than Jones no matter what you do. If you're looking to do better, then yeah, maybe spend a draft pick; if you're just looking to stay the same, then do it as cheaply as possible.

It sounds like the real issue is that we simply blew it on whether Dobbs was any good or not. The fact that we have not managed to draft or sign a single QB prospect in 15 years that even turned into an acceptable BACKUP perhaps points to some other problems that we have going on, but that is another story.

[GoSlash27]

I disagree, that's not a bad situation for the team. I'd rather have a Steve Young or Aaron Rodgers on the bench over say, Tee Martin or Landry Jones :chuckle:

I highly doubt it. You don't get a Steve Young or an Aaron Rodgers without spending some serious cash. You'll wind up with 2 HoF QBs (only one of which actually plays) and 51 scrubs.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Yeah, if you think we spent too much on Dobbs, that's one thing I can totally get behind. Jones needed to go, though.

I'm saying they could have handled another year of Jones as backup and not drafted Dobbs in 2017. Then as it turned out, they got Rudolph in the '18 draft and could have instead had a real position player in either Kittle at TE or King at Safety instead of Dobbs in the 4th round. Both Safety and TE positions were needed in the '17 draft.

Its not like the backup QB played much in the past 2 seasons in Pittsburgh and its not like Dobbs was worth having take snaps in the Raiders game anyways.

[steelreserve]

I'm saying they could have handled another year of Jones as backup and not drafted Dobbs in 2017. Then as it turned out, they got Rudolph in the '18 draft and could have instead had a real position player in either Kittle at TE or King at Safety instead of Dobbs in the 4th round. Both Safety and TE positions were needed in the '17 draft.

Its not like the backup QB played much in the past 2 seasons in Pittsburgh and its not like Dobbs was worth having take snaps in the Raiders game anyways.

I mean, yes, in hindsight, Dobbs was no better than Jones, and if we knew how that pick was going to turn out, I wouldn't have done it, there was no point.

It still would've been good to try and do better than Jones, although maybe not with a draft pick that could land you a contributing player elsewhere. That's where Player X comes in. Like I said, if you know you can't do much worse than the player you've got, you might as well just "re-roll" and see if it turns out better. We could do that without a draft pick if need be. But for some reason we thought Dobbs was that guy. I won't pretend to understand it.

[teegre]

“If Cowher had drafted Tom Brady instead of Tee Martin, the Steelers would have 17 more Lombardi’s!!!”

—Captain Hindsight

[86WARD]

“If Cowher had drafted Tom Brady instead of Tee Martin, the Steelers would have 17 more Lombardi’s!!!”

—Captain Hindsight

Probably not. He’s not athletic enough for Cowher and he wouldn’t be in the right system...lol

[GoSlash27]

“If Cowher had drafted Tom Brady instead of Tee Martin, the Steelers would have 17 more Lombardi’s!!!”

—Captain Hindsight

Not really, though. Tom Brady would've been out of the NFL in 2 years with a broken neck if he'd started with the Steelers. AFCN QBs need to be able to take a hit.

[steelreserve]

“If Cowher had drafted Tom Brady instead of Tee Martin, the Steelers would have 17 more Lombardi’s!!!”

—Captain Hindsight

Cowher was cheating too?

[teegre]

Cowher was cheating too?

:applaudit:

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

:applaudit: With KS ?

[hawaiiansteeler]

With KS ?

http://bp1.blogger.com/_l3drt5pB49Q/SHYwf_52XYI/AAAAAAAACJQ/TgZWWj3P7sc/s1600/kordell+men.jpg

[hawaiiansteeler]

Landry Jones: Cut loose by Oakland

by RotoWire Staff May 22, 2019

Jones was released by the Raiders on Wednesday, Matt Schneidman of The San Jose Mercury News reports.

https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/football/news/landry-jones-cut-loose-by-oakland/

[st33lersguy]

Landry Jones: Cut loose by Oakland

by RotoWire Staff May 22, 2019

Jones was released by the Raiders on Wednesday, Matt Schneidman of The San Jose Mercury News reports.

https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/football/news/landry-jones-cut-loose-by-oakland/

Yep, Landry was so good he got quickly cut by a team carrying Nathan Peterman as one of it's QBs. Interesting how the other 31 teams don't want to sign him and if they do, don't want to keep him for more than a week

[polamalubeast]

I don't think that 64 QB are better that Landry Jones...

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Landry Jones: Cut loose by Oakland

by RotoWire Staff May 22, 2019

Jones was released by the Raiders on Wednesday, Matt Schneidman of The San Jose Mercury News reports.

https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/football/news/landry-jones-cut-loose-by-oakland/

I wonder if the Raiders new #1 WR was holding out until they made this move? :noidea:

[Born2Steel]

Yes, in a way.