Bouchette: Tomlin Likely To Get Contract Extension

[polamalubeast]

PITTSBURGH (93.7 The Fan) - The Steelers have some decisions coming up when it comes to contracts, both players and coaches.

Fan Steelers Insider Ed Bouchette of The Athletic says General Manager Kevin Colbert is in the last year of his current contract and that he is hearing that at 62-years-old, Colbert will be taking it “year to year”.

“When he does leave he wants to make sure (the Steelers) are in good shape . . .I don’t know how long Kevin is going to keep going,” said Bouchette.

Bouchette also believes Coach Mike Tomlin will soon get a contract extension and event thought he want as much as a Sean Payton the Steelers will probably give it to him.

“I don’t think money is going to be an issue with his contract, I really don’t,” said Bouchette. “If they’re paying him $7 million now, I can see them going up to $9 (million).”

Bouchette adds the Steelers still think Tomlin is an elite coach.

“They think he’s a good coach, they want to keep him,” said Bouchette. “He would get another job in a second, they’ve cleaned out the clubhouse if you will a little bit and it’s a new beginning so I can see them extending (Tomlin).”

read more

https://937thefan.radio.com/articles/bouchette-tomlin-likely-get-contract-extension

[Mojouw]

This is gonna get ridiculous...

[Hawkman]

So glad that’s all clear.

[ALLD]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31g0YE61PLQ

[polamalubeast]

I would wait at least one more year before giving a new contract.

I also do not think he deserves to have a bigger contract that John Harbaugh (9 million per year) in Baltimore.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

This is gonna get ridiculous...

Yeah, heads gonna explode over this news. :chuckle:

[Mojouw]

How much counts against the cap? What is the dead money? So many questions...

[st33lersguy]

Of course. Ben carries him to 9 wins yet again and since that's the standard of success for Art, he gets an extension

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Of course. Ben carries him to 9 wins yet again and since that's the standard of success for Art, he gets an extension
But don't worry. Art is gonna make sure Ben gets paid too. After all, he has 52 kids to look after and that aint cheap.

[polamalubeast]

Of course. Ben carries him to 9 wins yet again and since that's the standard of success for Art, he gets an extension

But, but, but ... Tomlin has never had a losing record and he has a winning percentage of 65% in his career!

It's as if the context is not important for some.

[st33lersguy]

But, but, but ... Tomlin has never had a losing record and he has a winning percentage of 65% in his career!

It's as if the context is not important for some.

Yep who cares about 3-5 in the playoffs the last 8 years and playoff losses to Tim Tebow and Blake Bortles, or going 0-3 against 4-12 Raiders teams in Oakland all in the past 8 years

[smokin3000gt]

https://media.giphy.com/media/5550zJj6nF6pO/giphy.gif

[Edman]

Like Marvin Lewis in Cincy, Mike Tomlin will hang around like a disease, and it will take years of absolute crap to get him fired.

As long as Mike achieves mediocrity, he won't be let go.

[BlackAndGold]

Man it's going to be tough to replace Colbert when he walks.

[AtlantaDan]

Man it's going to be tough to replace Colbert when he walks.

Some of the posts around here would lead one to conclude Tomlin is to blame for not coaching up talent worthy of the 70s Steelers, 80s 49ers and 90s Cowboys, which would indicate Colbert leaving would be a loss.

OTOH if Colbert is not getting it done with the personnel he drafts/signs as FAs then Tomlin apparently is doing an acceptable job over the past 5 years given the personnel he has to work with - doing less got Harbaugh a multi-year $9 million per deal

:rolleyes:

[polamalubeast]

Some of the posts around here would lead one to conclude Tomlin is to blame for not coaching up talent worthy of the 70s Steelers, 80s 49ers and 90s Cowboys, which would indicate Colbert leaving would be a loss.

OTOH if Colbert is not getting it done with the personnel he drafts/signs as FAs then Tomlin apparently is doing an acceptable job over the past 5 years given the personnel he has to work with - doing less got Harbaugh a multi-year $9 million per deal

:rolleyes:

No, they are not the 1970s steelers, 1980s 49ers or other dynasty, but in the salary cap era, the steelers have often been very talented under Colbert .... Of course we always had some weaknesses like spmetimes it was the o-line or now the secondary but even the champion teams have weaknesses in their team so the steelers should have accomplished more in the last few years .... I'm not talking about super bowl, but at least more playoffs wins at least or not missed the playoffs.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Terry Bradshaw:

“I played for a tough sucker, and I was afraid of him, and we played our ass off for him because we feared him,” Bradshaw said of his coach, Chuck Noll. “I don’t see that with this guy. He’s chest bumping and all that. I’m the head of the corporation, I’m the CEO, I’m the chairman of the board, I’m talking to the stockholders telling them here’s how we’re gonna do at the end of the quarter. I’m selling this thing, and I’m not delivering the goods, which is championships. You’ve got to face the criticism. I’m sorry, but he’s not my kind of coach. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again.”

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/09/nfl-steelers-mike-tomlin-terry-bradshaw-criticism

[steelreserve]

Tomlin is like if you chopped Tony Romo and Andy Dalton in half and sewed them back together into a coach.


Year in and year out, do just well enough that the safe move for the GM is not to get rid of him, but everyone can tell it's just a tease and you're not winning shit when it counts. Good enough for the "it could be worse, we could be the Browns, omg Steelers fans are so spoiled" crowd, but not much else. Screw that, winners go home and fuck the prom queen. I'm tired of this shit. I guess you have to pick some other piece of shit team besides the Browns now. Bills or Dolphins or something, I guess. Whatever. Fuck you.

[Steeler-in-west]

Who cares if we regularly lose to bottom feeders, continuously underachieved with the killer B’s in the playoffs,

we have an overall winning percentage after all with Tomlin and that should be good enough!

It’s amazing how often I see incompetence and mediocrity rewarded in the workplace, it’s all over, even in sports it seems

[polamalubeast]

Tim Benz: Reevaluating Mike Tomlin’s contract situation with Steelers

Highbrow sports columnists such as myself refer to it as “having a developing opinion.”

The real world says, “I’m changing my mind, n’at.”

Trolls on Twitter say, “You’re flip-flopping.”

However you choose to phrase it, I’m altering my view on Mike Tomlin’s contract situation based on some new information.

That’s allowed, by the way.

Tomlin has two years remaining on his deal. That’s when the Steelers normally extend head coaches. They attempted to do so with Bill Cowher after the 2005 Super Bowl. It didn’t work out. He coached one more year then retired.

In January, Art Rooney II put off any talk of an extension for Tomlin. He said: “Those things we’ll get to sort of later in the offseason. We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.”

If we are talking bridges, Tomlin’s 2018 club caused far too many Steelers fans to consider leaping off one of the many available in Western Pennsylvania.

So once 2018 ended, I wrote that I was against a Tomlin extension. But I wasn’t going to fret about it because, well, it’s just Rooney’s money. And who cares? He has plenty of it.

It’s not as if Tomlin getting a contract extension does anything to the salary cap. But it might do something to Rooney’s sensibilities if he guarantees Tomlin a heap of cash on a new deal then feels the need to eat it upon an urge to fire him.

Previously, I didn’t think the sticker shock would ever prevent Rooney from making a football decision based on his coach.

Now, I’m not so sure.

According to a post in The Athletic on Tuesday, Tomlin makes $7 million per year now and will likely settle for no less than $9 million per year on an extension.

Even by NFL owner bottomless-pocket standards, we are getting into commitment-level numbers as you approach eight figures for a head coach. Granted, Tomlin probably would get another job quickly. And offset language may come into play to mitigate concerns.

Keep in mind, though, amid the myriad big-picture issues surrounding Antonio Brown’s situation, the matter of his comparatively minor $2.5 million roster bonus was constantly in play during discussions.

A one-and-done season for Tomlin on a new deal could extend well beyond that figure depending on the circumstances by which Tomlin is shoved out.

The danger comes into play if 2019 is a 4-12 kind of disaster from which Tomlin simply can’t return.

Then what?

Especially if Tomlin has $20 million-plus in new money looming. I guess I always knew that this was the monopoly money we were considering. But when you get into Bill Belichick territory — the story in The Athletic says he’s the top-paid coach at $12 million per year and no one else is paid more than $9 million — that seems to be a reality check.

Saying that Tomlin, with just three playoff victories since the 2010 AFC Championship Game, should be the second-highest paid coach in the NFL seems disproportionate.

Again, it’s Rooney’s plenty-porky piggy bank to use as he likes. So if he feels like security, continuity and consistency are that important to him, go ahead and sign the extension with two years left as he normally does.

I’d argue against it, though. The Steelers fan base is hungry, and it’s time for Tomlin to sing for his supper.


read more

https://triblive.com/sports/tim-benz-reevaluating-mike-tomlins-contract-situation-with-steelers/

[Born2Steel]

Good news.

[polamalubeast]

Keeping your coach too long (like Marvin Lewis, Mike McCarthy or Hue Jackson in Cleveland) is no better than firing a coach too quickly.His two scenarios are terrible for a team

In a normal situation Tomlin would be in the hot seat for the 2019 season, but the steelers think he is untouchable ... This is the same team that kept Todd Haley for 6 years and it will be the 5th year for Keith Butler as DC.

[AtlantaDan]

Tim Benz: Reevaluating Mike Tomlin’s contract situation with Steelers

Highbrow sports columnists such as myself refer to it as “having a developing opinion.”

The real world says, “I’m changing my mind, n’at.”

Trolls on Twitter say, “You’re flip-flopping.”

However you choose to phrase it, I’m altering my view on Mike Tomlin’s contract situation based on some new information.

That’s allowed, by the way.

Tomlin has two years remaining on his deal. That’s when the Steelers normally extend head coaches. They attempted to do so with Bill Cowher after the 2005 Super Bowl. It didn’t work out. He coached one more year then retired.

In January, Art Rooney II put off any talk of an extension for Tomlin. He said: “Those things we’ll get to sort of later in the offseason. We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.”

If we are talking bridges, Tomlin’s 2018 club caused far too many Steelers fans to consider leaping off one of the many available in Western Pennsylvania.

So once 2018 ended, I wrote that I was against a Tomlin extension. But I wasn’t going to fret about it because, well, it’s just Rooney’s money. And who cares? He has plenty of it.

It’s not as if Tomlin getting a contract extension does anything to the salary cap. But it might do something to Rooney’s sensibilities if he guarantees Tomlin a heap of cash on a new deal then feels the need to eat it upon an urge to fire him.

Previously, I didn’t think the sticker shock would ever prevent Rooney from making a football decision based on his coach.

Now, I’m not so sure.

According to a post in The Athletic on Tuesday, Tomlin makes $7 million per year now and will likely settle for no less than $9 million per year on an extension.

Even by NFL owner bottomless-pocket standards, we are getting into commitment-level numbers as you approach eight figures for a head coach. Granted, Tomlin probably would get another job quickly. And offset language may come into play to mitigate concerns.

Keep in mind, though, amid the myriad big-picture issues surrounding Antonio Brown’s situation, the matter of his comparatively minor $2.5 million roster bonus was constantly in play during discussions.

A one-and-done season for Tomlin on a new deal could extend well beyond that figure depending on the circumstances by which Tomlin is shoved out.

The danger comes into play if 2019 is a 4-12 kind of disaster from which Tomlin simply can’t return.

Then what?

Especially if Tomlin has $20 million-plus in new money looming. I guess I always knew that this was the monopoly money we were considering. But when you get into Bill Belichick territory — the story in The Athletic says he’s the top-paid coach at $12 million per year and no one else is paid more than $9 million — that seems to be a reality check.

Saying that Tomlin, with just three playoff victories since the 2010 AFC Championship Game, should be the second-highest paid coach in the NFL seems disproportionate.

Again, it’s Rooney’s plenty-porky piggy bank to use as he likes. So if he feels like security, continuity and consistency are that important to him, go ahead and sign the extension with two years left as he normally does.

I’d argue against it, though. The Steelers fan base is hungry, and it’s time for Tomlin to sing for his supper.


read more

https://triblive.com/sports/tim-benz-reevaluating-mike-tomlins-contract-situation-with-steelers/

Benz does a nice job of constructing the strawman of how Tomlin should not be the "second highest paid coach behind Belichick" and does not go into where Tomlin may be coming up with the alleged demand for $9 million per year

FWIW here are the salaries of coaches other than Belichick currently being paid $9 million or more

Jon Gruden 10 million
Pete Carroll 9 million +
Sean Payton 9 million

https://www.sportscasting.com/nfl/highest-paid-nfl-coaches-in-2018-plus-how-compare-to-college-football-coaches/

The article for his new employer is paywalled but Bouchette said in The Athletic that John Harbaugh's new deal also is for $9 million per

If that is what Harbaugh is getting it would be malpractice for Tomlin's agent to be seeking less than that

It is the same situation as Ben getting his latest deal - you pay what the market rate is if you want someone to sign a new deal regardless of whether you believe the market is rationally pricing salaries

[st33lersguy]

Keeping your coach too long (like Marvin Lewis, Mike McCarthy or Hue Jackson in Cleveland) is no better than firing a coach too quickly.His two scenarios are terrible for a team

In a normal situation Tomlin would be in the hot seat for the 2019 season, but the steelers think he is untouchable ... This is the same team that kept Todd Haley for 6 years and it will be the 5th year for Keith Butler as DC.

And 7th season for Danny Smith

[Edman]

No, no one is going to confuse the 2010's Steelers with those dynasty teams of lore, but you cannot deny the fact that they have fielded upper-echelon talent, and could've done better than what they've accomplished. The Steelers under Tomlin are the epitome of underachievement.

3-5 Postseason record.
Two one-and-out postseasons. Two at home no less.
Losing to journeymen quarterbacks in the playoffs.

A Franchise Quarterback who is Top 10 in the league. The best reciever of his generation. A unique RB with a different skillset, a Pro Bowl Offensive Line, a Defense with a lot of playmakers, and this is all they have to show for it. Not even a Super Bowl appearance to show for it. Say what you will about Bill Cowher and his flaws in the 1990's-2000's, but he took the Steelers to several AFC Title games and been to a Super bowl, fielding utter mediocrity at Quarterback. Cowher's achilles' heel was the quarterback, but to do what he did was impressive in hindsight. Kordell Stewart played in more AFC Championship games under Cowher than Ben did under Tomlin from 2011-2019. That's when you know something isn't right.

John Harbaugh had nowhere near the caliber of talent as Tomlin had and did a lot more with it. He won a Super Bowl with Unibrow Flacco. He goes into New England and give Belichick/Brady fits, when was the last time the Steelers ever did that? Then last year, taking a team in the midst of a QB controversy with a rookie quarterback who can't throw to a division title.

You look at his record and win percentage, but when you go into the context of his career, Tomlin is lackluster.

[AtlantaDan]

John Harbaugh had nowhere near the caliber of talent as Tomlin had and did a lot more with it. He won a Super Bowl with Unibrow Flacco. He goes into New England and give Belichick/Brady fits, when was the last time the Steelers ever did that? Then last year, taking a team in the midst of a QB controversy with a rookie quarterback who can't throw to a division title.

You look at his record and win percentage, but when you go into the context of his career, Tomlin is lackluster.

How many seasons has Harbaugh made the playoffs and how many playoff wins does he have since the Ravens won the Super Bowl in 2012?

As far as what he did in his most recent playoff appearance, his team got its collective ass handed to it against the Chargers at home last January

As far as comparisons go, both Harbaugh and Tomlin had their greatest success on the front end of their careers as HC

There are good reasons to not extend Tomlin, but Harbaugh getting a new $9 million per deal is something Tomlin’s agent will be citing in support of why Tomlin should get the same

[Fire Goodell]

John Harbaugh had nowhere near the caliber of talent as Tomlin had and did a lot more with it.

That's debatable. Offensive talent? Definitely not. But that defense was stacked, and probably the perennial #1 D in the league for some time during his tenure. Unibrow Flacco just had to manage the game, the defense carried that squad. Helped that they basically faced a rookie QB in the super bowl, who ended up being another version of Tim Tebow. Couldn't pass a ball worth a damn, but was a good runner and had some nice biceps :chuckle:

[steelreserve]

How many seasons has Harbaugh made the playoffs and how many playoff wins does he have since the Ravens won the Super Bowl in 2012?

As far as what he did in his most recent playoff appearance, his team got its collective ass handed to it against the Chargers at home last January

As far as comparisons go, both Harbaugh and Tomlin had their greatest success on the front end of their careers as HC

There are good reasons to not extend Tomlin, but Harbaugh getting a new $9 million per deal is something Tomlin’s agent will be citing in support of why Tomlin should get the same

The Ravens as a franchise over the last 10 years are pretty damn similar to us, only with slightly less talent on average, one losing season, and they actually managed to win a championship.

Otherwise: "Pretty good, never quite a serious contender." Win enough to keep the coach and GM employed, and pick off the occasional early-round postseason win of no consequence. Trade off winning the division based mostly on when the other team is having a down year. Chances of winning a title are mainly that you'll have a lucky run, not that you're in the driver's seat.

I'd say the Ravens are in that situation of constant just-good-enough more because of personnel problems, e.g. an ongoing lack of standout players at a few key positions while scrambling to patch together the rest of the roster that's mostly solid. Whereas our problem is an abundance of talent that was squandered by lackluster preparation and game planning, a mentality that was more style than substance, and fatal flaws and major depth issuss on defense, both caused by piss-poor player development. Seems like our issue has a lot to do with the coaching.

[polamalubeast]

How many seasons has Harbaugh made the playoffs and how many playoff wins does he have since the Ravens won the Super Bowl in 2012?

As far as what he did in his most recent playoff appearance, his team got its collective ass handed to it against the Chargers at home last January

As far as comparisons go, both Harbaugh and Tomlin had their greatest success on the front end of their careers as HC

There are good reasons to not extend Tomlin, but Harbaugh getting a new $9 million per deal is something Tomlin’s agent will be citing in support of why Tomlin should get the same

John Harbaugh is not perfect, but the ravens have been less talented than the Steelers since their last super bowl (The Ravens were far from talented in 2012 too ... They were very old especially in defense) But the Ravens have been very unlucky to miss the playoffs in 2016 and 2017 ..... In 2016, they were a tackle away on AB to win the AFC north (no way the bengals would have helped the steelers in week 17) ... and a 4th down stop away to make the playoffs in 2017.

Their biggest problem in the last few years was the QB position for the Ravens, especially as Flacco had a big contract, but they were not bad outside of 2015 when they lost so many close losses and numerous injuries.

But yes, I do not blame Tomlin for wanting a bigger contract than Harbaugh, but the context is important when you evaluate a coach .... You do not have to look just at the stats.

And also, even if leaders like Ray Lewis, Ed Reed left after 2012, their lockerroom has never been a big circus like the Steelers.

[st33lersguy]

No, no one is going to confuse the 2010's Steelers with those dynasty teams of lore, but you cannot deny the fact that they have fielded upper-echelon talent, and could've done better than what they've accomplished. The Steelers under Tomlin are the epitome of underachievement.

3-5 Postseason record.
Two one-and-out postseasons. Two at home no less.
Losing to journeymen quarterbacks in the playoffs.

A Franchise Quarterback who is Top 10 in the league. The best reciever of his generation. A unique RB with a different skillset, a Pro Bowl Offensive Line, a Defense with a lot of playmakers, and this is all they have to show for it. Not even a Super Bowl appearance to show for it. Say what you will about Bill Cowher and his flaws in the 1990's-2000's, but he took the Steelers to several AFC Title games and been to a Super bowl, fielding utter mediocrity at Quarterback. Cowher's achilles' heel was the quarterback, but to do what he did was impressive in hindsight. Kordell Stewart played in more AFC Championship games under Cowher than Ben did under Tomlin from 2011-2019. That's when you know something isn't right.

John Harbaugh had nowhere near the caliber of talent as Tomlin had and did a lot more with it. He won a Super Bowl with Unibrow Flacco. He goes into New England and give Belichick/Brady fits, when was the last time the Steelers ever did that? Then last year, taking a team in the midst of a QB controversy with a rookie quarterback who can't throw to a division title.

You look at his record and win percentage, but when you go into the context of his career, Tomlin is lackluster.

Cowher also lost to better QBs and better teams. 3 of his 4 home AFC Championship losses were to they dynasty Patriots and the great late 90s Broncos teams that won back-to-back and doing so with Kordell and a playoff-inexperienced Ben who struggled in his first postseason, certainly no one as bad as Tim Tebow or Blake Bortles. Additionally Cowher only went one-and-done twice in his career, his first 2 years. Those years they lost to the 90s Bills who went to 4 straight Super Bowls and in OT on the road against a Chiefs team QBed by Joe Montana. After that Cowher won at least a playoff game in the next 8 consecutive trips. Tomlin already has 4 one-and-dones, one to Tim Tebow and a Broncos team with the 2nd worst point differential in NFL playoff history, the other was to Blake Bortles and a fluke Jags team at home

[Edman]

How many seasons has Harbaugh made the playoffs and how many playoff wins does he have since the Ravens won the Super Bowl in 2012?

As far as what he did in his most recent playoff appearance, his team got its collective ass handed to it against the Chargers at home last January

As far as comparisons go, both Harbaugh and Tomlin had their greatest success on the front end of their careers as HC

There are good reasons to not extend Tomlin, but Harbaugh getting a new $9 million per deal is something Tomlin’s agent will be citing in support of why Tomlin should get the same

And Mike Tomlin didn't even make the playoffs last year despite a 7-2-1 start, minimal injuries and an exceptionally talented roster. And the last time Mike was in the playoffs he was one-and-done by a journeyman at home.

The Steelers' overall record from 2017-2018: 22-9-1. Not a single playoff win. Not one.

John Harbaugh has never had a Ben R. a Le'Veon Bell, or an Antonio Brown to bail them out of jams with their talent. Yes, he's had better Defenses, sure. But never an all-around talented team with a gamebreaking player. The Ravens were never in Super Bowl conversations or considered the elite of the AFC. The Steelers were.

Yet, Tomlin has had the exact same amount of success as Harbaugh. That's makes him a far worse coach in my eyes. Mike Tomlin has done considerably less with more. Whether he deserves as much if not more than Harbaugh doesn't matter. I don't think Mike deserves ANY extension. Mike Tomlin is an exceptionally poor coach with a lackluster resume.

[polamalubeast]

Cowher also lost to better QBs and better teams. 3 of his 4 home AFC Championship losses were to they dynasty Patriots and the great late 90s Broncos teams that won back-to-back and doing so with Kordell and a playoff-inexperienced Ben who struggled in his first postseason, certainly no one as bad as Tim Tebow or Blake Bortles. Additionally Cowher only went one-and-done twice in his career, his first 2 years. Those years they lost to the 90s Bills who went to 4 straight Super Bowls and in OT on the road against a Chiefs team QBed by Joe Montana. Tomlin already has 4 one-and-dones, one to Tim Tebow and a Broncos team with the 2nd worst point differential in NFL playoff history, the other was to Blake Bortles and a fluke Jags team at home

Cowher make the AFC title game twice in 3 years with Ben,twice in 4 years with Neil and also twice with Kordell in 5 years!

The success that Cowher had with Ben in his first two seasons was unbelievable .... 27-4 overall including the playoffs.

[Craic]

So, what I'm getting from this thread is people would rather have a team go through losing seasons and be the whipping boy for AFCCG teams when they make it to the playoffs? No thanks. I'd rather see us within one game of making the playoffs every year and have a good chance of winning the AFCCG if we make it there. (Tomlinson, 2-1, Cowher, 2-4).

[polamalubeast]

So, what I'm getting from this thread is people would rather have a team go through losing seasons and be the whipping boy for AFCCG teams when they make it to the playoffs? No thanks. I'd rather see us within one game of making the playoffs every year and have a good chance of winning the AFCCG if we make it there. (Tomlinson, 2-1, Cowher, 2-4).

No

I prefer to have a chance to win a super bowl ... We had more opportunities with Cowher than with Tomlin....6 AFC title game in 15 years with Cowher...only 3 in 12 years for Tomlin...We have been in the divisionnal round 9 times in 15 years with Cowher .... 5 times in 12 years with Tomlin.

More you have opportunity, more chance you have to winning something big....

And we must not forget the context, like the QB position.

[Edman]

So, what I'm getting from this thread is people would rather have a team go through losing seasons and be the whipping boy for AFCCG teams when they make it to the playoffs? No thanks. I'd rather see us within one game of making the playoffs every year and have a good chance of winning the AFCCG if we make it there. (Tomlinson, 2-1, Cowher, 2-4).

What I'm getting is that The fans would rather have a team that overachieves with lesser talent and lose to a better team than a team underachieve with greater talent and lose to inferior teams. Cowher's losing seasons were a result of free agency gutting the Steelers in the late 90's, and Tommy Maddox smashing into a wall in 2003.

Cowher's misfortune was losing to some of the greatest teams and QB's in NFL History. Marv Levy's Bills, Joe Montana, The 90's Cowboys, John Elway's Back-to-back Broncos, and The Patriots at the start of their dynasty. Once he finally got a quarterback, he made history by going 27-4 in two years, and beat three top seeds on the road to win the Super Bowl. His only real blemish was 1994 when he lost to Stan Humphries.

Tomlin has lost to the 8-8 Broncos, Joe Flacco, and Blake Bortles.

There was one year when Cowher's Steelers collapsed, and that was 1998. Tomlin's Steelers have crashed and burned on four different occasions.

Cowher has had Ben for three of his 15 year tenure. Tomlin has had Ben for the entirety of his tenure.

[AtlantaDan]

There was one year when Cowher's Steelers collapsed, and that was 1998. Tomlin's Steelers have crashed and burned on four different occasions.

1999 season was worse - finished 6-10 and lost 7 of their last 8

This description of the season ending loss to the Titans

There's no telling how far the Steelers would have regressed if their season hadn't come to a merciful conclusion yesterday....

Owner Dan Rooney, who will meet with Cowher within the next few weeks to determine the coach's future, had to be sickened by this level of play....

There's no telling where wide receiver Bobby Shaw's head was when he caught a 35-yard touchdown pass from Tomczak with less than two minutes remaining. In celebrating the score, Shaw pulled up his Steelers' shirt to show a Superman T-shirt underneath.

How interesting. Superman plays for a 6-10 team and, for the season, caught 28 passes, less than two a game.
In the best of times, showing off a Superman T-shirt is a minor-league tactic. In the Steelers' circumstances, Shaw was totally out of line, and his gesture speaks to the lack of discipline on the team.
So does the fact two players were ejected. Troy Edwards was thrown after Walker's fumble recovery for starting a pushing match with Dainon Sydney, whose crime was that he blocked Edwards on the play.

Still later, Wayne Gandy was ejected for shoving referee Tom White.
It was an ugly ending to an ugly season and it certainly had to give Dan Rooney pause. He knows who's running the organization. He is. He just has to be wondering who's running the team.

http://old.post-gazette.com/steelers/20000103smizik2.asp


At that point Saint Cowher had two consecutive losing seasons and two AFC championship game losses at home (on the way to a career 1-4 record in home AFC championship games), including one to the Chargers as a 9 point favorite while the players were planning a Super Bowl video in the week leading up to the game

Some posters here would have been screaming for Dan Rooney to can the coach if it was Tomlin with that 8 season track record - but Cowher not so much

[polamalubeast]

It's Tom Donahoe who lost his job after the 1999 season .... If the steelers would have had another bad season in 2000, Cowher would also have lost his job ..... But the team had progressed in 2000 after a 0-3 start, they finished at 9-7.

I can understand not fired Tomlin now, but he deserves to be on the hot seat right now like Cowher was in 2000.

[polamalubeast]

Speaking of Bill Cowher ...

1126270859151400960

:rofl2:

[Fire Goodell]

Speaking of Bill Cowher ...

1126270859151400960

:rofl2:

Wasn't that the game where it was 3-0 Vikings at the half, then the team totally fell apart and we lost like 300-0? :chuckle:

[st33lersguy]

So, what I'm getting from this thread is people would rather have a team go through losing seasons and be the whipping boy for AFCCG teams when they make it to the playoffs? No thanks. I'd rather see us within one game of making the playoffs every year and have a good chance of winning the AFCCG if we make it there. (Tomlinson, 2-1, Cowher, 2-4).

Would rather make the afc championship game than lose the first playoff game to a vastly inferior team that's starting an aaf level qb

[ALLD]

Tomlin is like if you chopped Tony Romo and Andy Dalton in half and sewed them back together into a coach.


Year in and year out, do just well enough that the safe move for the GM is not to get rid of him, but everyone can tell it's just a tease and you're not winning shit when it counts. Good enough for the "it could be worse, we could be the Browns, omg Steelers fans are so spoiled" crowd, but not much else. Screw that, winners go home and fuck the prom queen. I'm tired of this shit. I guess you have to pick some other piece of shit team besides the Browns now. Bills or Dolphins or something, I guess. Whatever. Fuck you.


Tomlin has turned into a charismatic version of Marvin Lewis. He should have been fired instead of extended just because of all the drama, not to mention sucking in the playoffs. Let's talk about clock management and defending every blade of grass too. I'm over the platitudes. They are not important wins.

[polamalubeast]

Would rather make the afc championship game than lose the first playoff game to a vastly inferior team that's starting an aaf level qb

It's as if some people prefer to see the steelers watch the AFC title game in their house on T.V. than to see the steelers play this game.

One AFC title game in the last 8 years, it's a little disappointing if you look at the context and also the AFC title game we played, we have not even been close.

[fansince'76]

And like clockwork, the over-romanticized revisionist history of the Cowher era makes its obligatory appearance. :rolleyes:

[Craic]

Would rather make the afc championship game than lose the first playoff game to a vastly inferior team that's starting an aaf level qb

Oh, I don't know, I prefer watching meaningful football every late December Sunday. I sure don't miss the days of the 98-2000 Steelers or the 2003 or 2006 Steelers who so vastly underachieved they weren't even playing meaningful football late in December. It's been what, twelve years since we've had a game in December that didn't mean anything? Interesting, Tomlin has been the coach 12 years as well.

[polamalubeast]

Oh, I don't know, I prefer watching meaningful football every late December Sunday. Lest we forget, Tomlin teams have missed four playoffs, and each time, only by one game (hence, meaningful football late in December). Cowher? Not so much. With just three more years than Tomlin, Cowher led teams missed five playoffs, all of which (except maybe one) had them out long before late December.

2009,2013,2015 and 2018 the steelers did not control their destiny in week 17 and they won the 4 games, but 3 of his victories were useless, since the steelers did not have the help he had to have since they did not control their destiny....You have to control your destiny at the end of the season, otherwise you are in the big trouble

For now, Tomlin make the playoffs 8 times over 12 seasons ..... all with Roethlisberger .... Cowher make the playoffs 10 times over 15 seasons .... 12 of his seasons were without a franchise QB ... Yet Cowher and Tomlin both make the playoffs 66% of the time.Similar stats, context different again!

Missing the playoffs is a failure, especially when you have a historic collapse like in 2009 or 2018 with a talented team.

[Craic]

2009,2013,2015 and 2017 the steelers did not control their destiny in week 17 and they won the 4 games, but 3 of his victories were useless, since the steelers did not have the help he had to have since they did not control their destiny....You have to control your destiny at the end of the season, otherwise you are in the big trouble

For now, Tomlin make the playoffs 8 times over 12 seasons ..... all with Roethlisberger .... Cowher make the playoffs 10 times over 15 seasons .... 12 of his seasons were without a franchise QB ... Yet Cowher and Tomlin both make the playoffs 66% of the time.Similar stats, context different again!

Missing the playoffs is a failure, especially when you have a historic collapse like in 2009 or 2018 with a talented team.

Not my point. My point is Tomlin's teams were in the position to play meaningful games. Period. That's better than the Cowher teams that couldn't even get that far that several others seem not willing to remember. And if you want to talk about historic collapses, all we have to do is go back to AFCCGs. Top-ranked defenses. Top-ranked running games. And we lost how many times? Five or something like that?

The funny thing is, I'm not completely sold on Tomlin right now either. But, it's this historical revision thing that makes me cringe so much, as if Tomlin has done jack-all and Cowher was the man year in and year out. No one has came out and said it, but go back and read this thread and several other threads with the same theme, and that's exactly the context between the lines, and it's simply wrong. The both have their strong points and they both have their weaknesses. On top of that, we're almost talking two different eras, to be honest. And, while Cowher left Tomlin with a good QB for the new era of QB-focused football, he also left Tomlin with an aging O Line and a defensive system that had been a relic five years before Tomlin even came to the team, and it was just being covered up by great LB and Safety play. (For instance, the 2008 defense looks great on paper, but if you look at the fourth quarter TDs aloud by that defense late in the season and playoffs, you'll see exactly what I mean. It became even clearer in 2010-2011.

[steelreserve]

So, what I'm getting from this thread is people would rather have a team go through losing seasons and be the whipping boy for AFCCG teams when they make it to the playoffs? No thanks. I'd rather see us within one game of making the playoffs every year and have a good chance of winning the AFCCG if we make it there. (Tomlinson, 2-1, Cowher, 2-4).

That's retarded. What people are saying is that Tomlin did a shitty job with the talent he had. And other coaches could have probably taken the talent we had and done better. We underachieved and it was dumb. Cowher had a stupid aversion to having a good quarterback, but in all other respects did a superior job. With a good QB, he and many others would have managed better.

[polamalubeast]

The QB position has always been a crucial one, even in the 1990s (from 1992 to 1999, every QB who won the super bowl is in the HOF)

Cowher and Tomlin have strengths and weaknesses and yes Cowher has had some awful seasons, but this is the same thing for Tomlin even if the win-loss record was not awful, but it would have been awful in some years (especially in the years they missed the playoffs) if he had a QB of the caliber of Kordell Stewart.

And for the 4 AFC title game and the super bowl that Cowher lost, 1994 was a choke, but 1995, the steelers have almost upset the Cowboys, although the steelers were 10 points underdog .... in 1997, lost by only 3 points despite the terrible game by Kordell against a GREAT Broncos team who won back to back SB title ... 2001, Kordell has once again its worst game of the year at the worst possible time and in addition our special team that had been a big weakness for the 2001 season gave 2 TD ..... far too much to overcome ... 2004 with a QB rookie against possibly the best team to have won the super bowl in the NFL since 2000.

Outside of 1994 (you can add 2001 if you want), the steelers lost against some teams who were very loaded each time and the steelers had a big disadvantage at the QB position

[Butch]

Not my point. My point is Tomlin's teams were in the position to play meaningful games. Period. That's better than the Cowher teams that couldn't even get that far that several others seem not willing to remember. And if you want to talk about historic collapses, all we have to do is go back to AFCCGs. Top-ranked defenses. Top-ranked running games. And we lost how many times? Five or something like that?

The funny thing is, I'm not completely sold on Tomlin right now either. But, it's this historical revision thing that makes me cringe so much, as if Tomlin has done jack-all and Cowher was the man year in and year out. No one has came out and said it, but go back and read this thread and several other threads with the same theme, and that's exactly the context between the lines, and it's simply wrong. The both have their strong points and they both have their weaknesses. On top of that, we're almost talking two different eras, to be honest. And, while Cowher left Tomlin with a good QB for the new era of QB-focused football, he also left Tomlin with an aging O Line and a defensive system that had been a relic five years before Tomlin even came to the team, and it was just being covered up by great LB and Safety play. (For instance, the 2008 defense looks great on paper, but if you look at the fourth quarter TDs aloud by that defense late in the season and playoffs, you'll see exactly what I mean. It became even clearer in 2010-2011.

To me the biggest difference between the 2 is that Cowher never had the Franchise QB until the end of his coaching career, and Tomlin has never had to replace one. IMHO if all things were exactly the same I would lean towards Cowher but by the slimmest of margins.

Just as you are not sold on Tomlin I am not so certain of Cowher either. He had passion and I loved that about him, but I can't help but wonder how much of his passion lead to him putting to much pressure on his QBs maybe even to the point of making them doubt themselves. He did win a SB with Ben, but it was also the worst game of the post season for Ben. Don't get me wrong he let Ben Play his game in both Indy and Denver, but there was a major difference in Ben in SB XL.

As for your comment on the aging Oline; Ben did win 2 superbowls with that line. Also I would not call the D that he got as a relic 5 years before Tomlin got there. They were at the top (if not the top) Defense the year we won 43. We also went to the SB 2 years after that although we lost that game.

If you asked me just a few years ago I would have said Cowher hands down, but I have since changed my mind. I realize that while I do love to hear how this is debated there will never be a true answer.

[polamalubeast]

Dunlap: Why The Rush With Tomlin?

PITTSBURGH (93.7 The Fan) - Let’s get this out of the way right now: I’m a Big Mike Tomlin fan.

Yep. I won’t hide it at all. Big, big Coach T fan.

I like what he’s done with the franchise and I think the whole “he needs to have more control” narrative is incredibly overblown. In short, if he ran a tighter ship, I don’t necessarily think that would equate to more wins.

It actually might equate to fewer, to be honest.

And I think --- as with any NFL fanbase --- there is a large contingent of people who complain for the sake of complaining. It feels like the smallest Tomlin error or gripe is built up, explodes in Vesuvius form and is made out by some to be something that the Steelers will never be able to overcome.

But I get it --- that’s what fans do. That’s what fans that really care do.

All that said, I will acknowledge something very real, pressing and timely: There should be absolutely no rush to give Mike Tomlin a new contract or contract extension right now.

I heard veteran Steelers writer Ed Bouchette on 93.7 The Fan the other day talking about how he’s now of the idea Tomlin’s extension will come sooner rather than later --- that he and the team will hammer something out before the beginning of the 2019 season.

To that I ask, “Why the rush?”

Why is there this apparent urgency to come to some sort of agreement?

You see, Tomlin has a current contract that runs through the end of the 2020 season, essentially under agreement to coach this coming season and the next one.

With the Steelers missing the playoffs last season and being embarrassingly bounced out of the 2017 postseason by the Jacksonville Jaguars, I’m failing to understand why it wouldn’t be prudent to have Tomlin sing for his supper a little bit right now.

This is an important time for the Steelers and Tomlin and sometimes the best decision is, well, no decision at all.

The Steelers, to me at least, are stuck in a dangerous “that’s the way we’ve always done it” rut wherein their common business practice would be to re-up a coach with two seasons remaining on his contract.

It’s one thing to adhere to tradition --- it’s quite another to become antiquated.

It is yet still another thing to be inflexible depending on variables. I’m here to tell you the Steelers’ policy (or at least history) is both antiquated and they are acting as if they cannot act in another way. In addition, these variables are different as the Steelers have been unsuccessful in the playoffs as of late --- which is very uncharacteristic.

The solution here is simple: Do nothing.

read more

https://937thefan.radio.com/articles/dunlap-why-rush-tomlin

[Shoes]

It's Rooney's dime. Let's see if Tomlin can hold to his own standard. “It’s about talking less, it’s about doing more. Not making any bold predictions”.

[Butch]

And like clockwork, the over-romanticized revisionist history of the Cowher era makes its obligatory appearance. :rolleyes:

Could say the same thing for the over-romanticized history of Tomlin never having a losing season.

[st33lersguy]

Here's some postseason stats
Cowher was 7-1 when the Steelers opened the playoffs at home, Tomlin is 3-3.
Overall in the first playoff game, Cowher is 8-2, Tomlin is 4-4.
Additionally, Cowher lost a postseason game to a team with a worse record 3 times including only 1 time to a team who had 2 or more wins less. Tomlin coaching fewer seasons mind you lost to 4 teams with worse records including 2x to teams with at least three fewer wins.
Cowher never lost a postseason game to a team that finished worse than 11-5, Tomlin has 4 such losses, including an 8-8 team.
Also when you look at the QBs Cowher lost to, none of them were as bad as Tebow or Bortles, and I'd argue that the only QB Cowher lost to that is on similar level to David Garrard is Stan Humphries

Though I will love for the pro Tomlin crowd to continue to bash Cowher to try and make Tomlin look better because there isn't many arguments to justify that at this point

[polamalubeast]

Cowher never lost a postseason game to a team that finished worse than 11-5


Very interesting as stats ... I did not know!

[Mojouw]

What is the point of all the comparisons across eras between Cowher and Tomlin? It proves what exactly? Also, how should we take the wildly different styles of play between portions of Cowher's tenure and Tomlin's tenure into account? How do we discriminate between Tomlin "wasting an elite offense with a HOF QB" and Cowher "wasting supremely talented defenses and dominant running games"? Which sin is worse? How to decide?

What about Cowher's love affair with veterans and his insistence on not playing younger guys - can you imagine that in this era of salary cap football? It'd be a disaster.

I suspect all the numbers say Noll was a better coach than Cowher. When should Cowher have been fired then?

It isn't like Cowher or a re-animated Night King Chuck Noll is interviewing for head coaching jobs anytime soon.

[st33lersguy]

Very interesting as stats ... I did not know!

Yep Cowher was a perfect 7-0 in the postseason against teams who finished worse than 11-5. Tomlin is a paltry 3-4 against teams that finished worse than 11-5

[Edman]

And like clockwork, the over-romanticized revisionist history of the Cowher era makes its obligatory appearance. :rolleyes:

That's not the point. The point is that Tomlin has done nothing but coast on high-end talent for a decade and did next to nothing with it.


Oh, I don't know, I prefer watching meaningful football every late December Sunday. I sure don't miss the days of the 98-2000 Steelers or the 2003 or 2006 Steelers who so vastly underachieved they weren't even playing meaningful football late in December. It's been what, twelve years since we've had a game in December that didn't mean anything? Interesting, Tomlin has been the coach 12 years as well.

In 2015, it came down to the Jets losing in Buffalo for the Steelers to back in. They were staring postseason elimination dead in the face after falling apart to Ryan Mallett In a must-win game in Baltimore. No Playoff wins in five years despite a franchise quarterback is disgraceful.

Is that the "meaningful" football you're talking about?

[AtlantaDan]

When should Cowher have been fired then?.

Applying the standards of the Tomlin must go crowd (consecutive disappointing seasons and no Super Bowl wins in his past 8 seasons), probably after the 1999 season, since Cowher’s success from 1992-97 would be attributed to winning with Noll’s players :rolleyes:

Which of course was not how Dan Rooney did business or how his son does now

Tomlin getting his extension this summer will be in accordance with how the Rooneys roll, just as it was with Cowher getting his extension before the 2001 season after going 22-26 while missing the playoffs the three previous seasons

https://archive.triblive.com/news/cowher-signs-three-year-contract-extension/

[fansince'76]

To me the biggest difference between the 2 is that Cowher never had the Franchise QB until the end of his coaching career...

Except a lot of that was Cowher's doing. And if Dan Rooney hadn't pulled rank on him during the 2004 draft, they would have wound up with Shawn Andrews at OT instead of Roethlisberger. Further, the "Kordell Experiment" should have ended a good 3 years before it actually did. Cowher simply didn't value the QB position as much as he should have, and that may have been his biggest fault.


That's not the point. The point is that Tomlin has done nothing but coast on high-end talent for a decade and did next to nothing with it.

OK, so why dredge up Cowher for the umpteenth time to make it, then?

[Edman]

OK, so why dredge up Cowher for the umpteenth time to make it, then?

If Cowher can be almost fired after 1999 despite his prior success, the Tomlin shouldn't get a free pass or contract extension for doing just as much if not less but with far more talent.

The Steelers are stuck in a position where most organizations don't want to be. The purgatory zone of being good enough, but not quite. Tethered with a subpar coach they can't let go because "Muh no losing seasons", even though keeping him on will not improve the teams' chances of winning either. The Packers had to kick Mike McCarthy to the curb for the years of not getting it done with a franchise quarterback, except it was three years too late and it took the Packers falling to shit to do so. Maybe that's what needs to happen to the Steelers.

[Mojouw]

So I just did a quick tour of random sites that ranked NFL coaches all time. The Steelers were the only team to consistently get three guys somewhere in the top 20-30 coaches of ALL TIME.

But let's keep talking about how it is time to fire guys.

I find it funny and surprising how this board consistently under-rates players and coaches compared to the wider NFL internet.

[fansince'76]

If Cowher can be almost fired after 1999 despite his prior success, the Tomlin shouldn't get a free pass or contract extension for doing just as much if not less but with far more talent.

The Steelers are stuck in a position where most organizations don't want to be. The purgatory zone of being good enough, but not quite. Tethered with a subpar coach they can't let go because "Muh no losing seasons", even though keeping him on will not improve the teams' chances of winning either. The Packers had to kick Mike McCarthy to the curb for the years of not getting it done with a franchise quarterback, except it was three years too late and it took the Packers falling to shit to do so. Maybe that's what needs to happen to the Steelers.

Fair enough. Believe me, I'd have been perfectly happy to say bye-bye to Tomlin after the latest loss to the Raiders, which, quite frankly, was inexcusable. I'm still ambivalent as far as whether he stays or goes at this point. And he should have shitcanned Butler, IMO, and Danny Smith to boot.

I'm just tired of the revisionist history when it comes to Cowher, that's all. I liked Cowher. He was a good coach. And that's it. He wasn't some wunderkind football coach like he's often made out to be now that a decade+ has gone by and absence has made the heart grow fonder for a lot of fans.

[Edman]

Fair enough. Believe me, I'd have been perfectly happy to say bye-bye to Tomlin after the latest loss to the Raiders, which, quite frankly, was inexcusable. I'm still ambivalent as far as whether he stays or goes at this point. And he should have shitcanned Butler, IMO, and Danny Smith to boot.

I'm just tired of the revisionist history when it comes to Cowher, that's all. I liked Cowher. He was a good coach. And that's it. He wasn't some wunderkind football coach like he's often made out to be now that a decade+ has gone by and absence has made the heart grow fonder for a lot of fans.

If you read the first post I made about Cowher, I admitted he had his flaws. He's was no unstoppable force at head coach and he had his issues. The point I was trying to make is that he overachieved for many years. Tomlin has horrendously underachieved. We've all saw how good Cowher was (or could've been) with a good quarterback like Ben. Meanwhile Tomlin, with the same quarterback can only match the same success Cowher achieved with the bupkus he had under center. He's won playoff games (dominantly) with Kordell Stewart. Neil O' Donnell, and even Mike freaking Tomczak. Tomlin can't hang with Tim Tebow, Blake Bortles, Joe Flacco, and David Garrard with Ben under center.

You honestly can't blame some folks for being frustrated with that.

[Mojouw]

You know what is funny about some of this? McCarthy is held up as an example of team firing a guy because of underperformance. But the reports out of Green Bay indicate it isn't really that at all. It is because he basically stopped coaching. Reportedly ran out of plays in the second half of games. And fostered a team environment where most of the roster didn't talk to the other. Basically most of the things that people here think is happening in Pittsburgh actually happened in Green Bay.

Even Funnier? As recently as 12-18 months ago, many hoped that Tomlin would get fired and McCarthy would come here.

[fansince'76]

If you read the first post I made about Cowher, I admitted he had his flaws. He's was no unstoppable force at head coach and he had his issues. The point I was trying to make is that he overachieved for many years. Tomlin has horrendously underachieved. We've all saw how good Cowher was (or could've been) with a good quarterback like Ben. Meanwhile Tomlin, with the same quarterback can only match the same success Cowher achieved with the bupkus he had under center. He's won playoff games (dominantly) with Kordell Stewart. Neil O' Donnell, and even Mike freaking Tomczak. Tomlin can't hang with Tim Tebow, Blake Bortles, Joe Flacco, and David Garrard with Ben under center.

You honestly can't blame some folks for being frustrated with that.

I also happen to think if Cowher had stuck around longer, the Steelers would have either lost Roethlisberger after he requested/forced a trade out of town, or he would have been largely relegated to being a game manager in deference to a power running game for a sizable chunk of his career. In other words, a Dan Reeves/John Elway type of relationship.


In the '70s, Reeves had been regarded as the creative mind behind the Cowboys' sleek offense. But by the '90s, to Elway he seemed rigid, unimaginative and staid.

Only once during the Reeves regime had Elway thrown as many as 20 touchdown passes in a season. Average quarterbacks routinely did that. He hadn't surpassed 4,000 yards nor averaged more than two 300-yard games a season. A Hall of Fame official told a Broncos official it would be "a shame for posterity's sake if John Elway never had the chance to play for a team that emphasized passing."

http://static.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs98/news/1999/990120/01056576.html

Undervaluing the QB position and treating it as an afterthought is OK when you have schlubs like Tomczak and Stewart under center, but not when you have a bona fide franchise QB on the roster. Hell, Roethlisberger was already starting to show signs of chafing under Cowher/Whisenhunt even before Cowher left. At the time, a lot of people chalked it up as immaturity on Roethlisberger's part, and while I also thought that was part of it, I still believed there was more to it than that. Still do.

Example: setting Roethlisberger loose against the Bengals, Colts and Broncos in the 2005 postseason and then doing a complete 180 and going ultra-conservative against Seattle in the SB.

Managing QBs = Cowher's Achilles' heel.

[Edman]

I also happen to think if Cowher had stuck around longer, the Steelers would have either lost Roethlisberger after he requested/forced a trade out of town, or he would have been largely relegated to being a game manager in deference to a power running game for a sizable chunk of his career. In other words, a Dan Reeves/John Elway type of relationship.



http://static.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs98/news/1999/990120/01056576.html

Undervaluing the QB position and treating it as an afterthought is OK when you have schlubs like Tomczak and Stewart under center, but not when you have a bona fide franchise QB on the roster. Hell, Roethlisberger was already starting to show signs of chafing under Cowher/Whisenhunt even before Cowher left. At the time, a lot of people chalked it up as immaturity on Roethlisberger's part, and while I also thought that was part of it, I still believed there was more to it than that. Still do.

Example: setting Roethlisberger loose against the Bengals, Colts and Broncos in the 2005 postseason and then doing a complete 180 and going ultra-conservative against Seattle in the SB.

Managing QBs = Cowher's Achilles' heel.

A WR pass in the Super Bowl is ultra-"conservative"?

I don't agree with that.

After Ben's performances in XLIII and XLV, which were games where he wasn't so-called "limited", he wasn't that much better than his performance in XL. One great throw to Santonio Holmes was one of the few bright spots in Ben's Super Bowl resume. Thankfully it won the game.

Aside from that lone bright spot, Ben hasn't been particularly great in Super Bowls. So maybe Cowher and Whisenhunt was on to something, as much as Ben will refuse to admit it himself. Ben for all of his talent, has an ego and really is immature, as evident right after XL, he plants his head through a windshield (after people warned him), then proceeds to bring not one, but TWO unwanted distractions to the Steelers in two seperate offseasons. It's the little things that seperate the good from the truly great. I think Cowher/Whis saw Ben's flaws, and Ben didn't want to hear it. He was already a legend in his own mind.

There's a reason why Ben has only managed to skirt the second tier of quarterbacks throughout his entire career. But I digress. Ben for all of his foepaws is still a good player, but I think Tomlin's sub-average coaching hasn't helped and has only made him regress and stagnate in certain areas instead of reaching his full potential, as with the whole Steelers team.

[fansince'76]

A WR pass in the Super Bowl is ultra-"conservative"?

I don't agree with that.

After Ben's performances in XLIII and XLV, which were games where he wasn't so-called "limited", he wasn't that much better than his performance in XL. One great throw to Santonio Holmes was one of the few bright spots in Ben's Super Bowl resume. Thankfully it won the game.

Aside from that lone bright spot, Ben hasn't been particularly great in Super Bowls. So maybe Cowher and Whisenhunt was on to something, as much as Ben will refuse to admit it himself. Ben for all of his talent, has an ego and really is immature, as evident right after XL, he plants his head through a windshield (after people warned him), then proceeds to bring not one, but TWO unwanted distractions to the Steelers in two seperate offseasons. It's the little things that seperate the good from the truly great. I think Cowher/Whis saw Ben's flaws, and Ben didn't want to hear it. He was already a legend in his own mind.

There's a reason why Ben has only managed to skirt the second tier of quarterbacks throughout his entire career. But I digress. Ben for all of his foepaws is still a good player, but I think Tomlin's sub-average coaching hasn't helped and has only made him regress and stagnate in certain areas instead of reaching his full potential, as with the whole Steelers team.

One trick play in the latter stages of a 60-minute game does not erase an overall ultra-conservative game plan. For the most part, SB XL was a Martyball clinic from Cowher. I'm sure Cowher's mentor Schottenheimer was beaming with pride.

One great throw to Holmes? Sure, never mind the even better throw the play before that went sailing through Holmes' hands or even the clutch throws he made over the rest of that drive. Nor the fact that it was all done behind arguably the WORST championship-winning OL in the history of the game, which also just so happened to put the offense in a first-and-20 hole and within the shadow of its own end zone to begin said drive with yet another boneheaded holding penalty.

Oh, and if Roethlisberger has only been "skirting the 2nd tier" of QBs his entire career, then how exactly has Tomlin "underachieved?" Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. Before Munchak came along, Roethlisberger had been routinely throwing darts with defenders in his face constantly behind OLs that would have gotten guys like P. Manning and Brady killed:


We saved the best for last. Big Ben has been making big plays with defenders hanging all over him for years, so it's no surprise that he'd be one of the better throwers under pressure. But over the last couple seasons, it's his accuracy, efficiency and ability to read defenses on the run that have set him apart. In 2014, Roethlisberger was pressured 177 times, completing 89 of 140 passes (a league-leading 63.6% completion rate under pressure) for 11 touchdowns and not one single interception.

http://media.giphy.com/media/l41m6c9sVRBqwbJ4I/giphy.gif

This play against the Chiefs in Week 16 was perhaps the best example of why Roethlisberger is so frustrating for defenses. He beats the line pressure with some nimble footwork after the protection breaks down, dances his way through the trash, and fires a bullet to Antonio Brown for the touchdown. Bonus points to Brown for navigating the coverage and getting free over time -- this is one of the primary skills any top receiver for a mobile quarterback must master. But it was Roethlisberger who perfectly read Kansas City's pressure-to-coverage concepts and created the opportunity when many quarterbacks would collapse under the pressure.

Put simply, that's what the great ones do.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2015/06/10/nfl-quarterbacks-best-worst-under-pressure-andy-dalton-aaron-rodgers

[steelreserve]

So I just did a quick tour of random sites that ranked NFL coaches all time. The Steelers were the only team to consistently get three guys somewhere in the top 20-30 coaches of ALL TIME.

But let's keep talking about how it is time to fire guys.

I find it funny and surprising how this board consistently under-rates players and coaches compared to the wider NFL internet.

Tomlin a top 20-30 coach of all time? That's a bad joke. No, really, though. You'd have to be a huge fanboy to even say definitively top 50. You could make an argument for that maybe, although I personally wouldn't buy it.

[Butch]

Except a lot of that was Cowher's doing. And if Dan Rooney hadn't pulled rank on him during the 2004 draft, they would have wound up with Shawn Andrews at OT instead of Roethlisberger.

I did not know any of this until you mentioned it and I did a little research. In that research even Cowher admits he didn't value the QB position. That was a real eye opener to me. As for Dan he was simply the best and without a doubt he will be missed not only by Pittsburgh but the NFL as a whole.

At least Cowher had the good sense to listen to him and changed his mind unlike Walt Kiesling who let Johnny Unitas walk many years earlier. Wow Johnny U and Dan Marino what could have been. Thank goodness lightning did not strike us a 3rd time. Dan really had an eye for QBs.

[polamalubeast]

If Roethlisberger signed a contrat in the middle of the Todd Haley era with the steelers, then I do not think Ben would have asked for a trade if Bill Cowher would have stayed.

Also, Cowher had won a lot in the first 2 years with Ben, which is what matters .... I prefer wins over the passing yards.

[polamalubeast]

What is the point of all the comparisons across eras between Cowher and Tomlin? It proves what exactly? Also, how should we take the wildly different styles of play between portions of Cowher's tenure and Tomlin's tenure into account? How do we discriminate between Tomlin "wasting an elite offense with a HOF QB" and Cowher "wasting supremely talented defenses and dominant running games"? Which sin is worse? How to decide?

What about Cowher's love affair with veterans and his insistence on not playing younger guys - can you imagine that in this era of salary cap football? It'd be a disaster.

I suspect all the numbers say Noll was a better coach than Cowher. When should Cowher have been fired then?

It isn't like Cowher or a re-animated Night King Chuck Noll is interviewing for head coaching jobs anytime soon.

I do not think Cowher wasted a great defense or running game ... I mean, the steelers were in the AFC title game 6 times under Cowher, it's not so like we've never been close or something like that .

In the case of Tomlin, one of the problems is that Tomlin is a defensive coach and our defenses has been very average for several years, even if the steelers have drafted a defensive player in the first round in each year since the 2013 season.

Yet our results were average at best ... Cowher was much better at developing a defense and overall a true identity to the team.

[polamalubeast]

1126411176613572608

[Mojouw]

Tomlin a top 20-30 coach of all time? That's a bad joke. No, really, though. You'd have to be a huge fanboy to even say definitively top 50. You could make an argument for that maybe, although I personally wouldn't buy it.

You can Google it and read through the lists. Point is that Tomlin is viewed one way by Steelers fans and a vastly different way by the rest of NFL followers.

[Mojouw]

I do not think Cowher wasted a great defense or running game ... I mean, the steelers were in the AFC title game 6 times under Cowher, it's not so like we've never been close or something like that .

In the case of Tomlin, one of the problems is that Tomlin is a defensive coach and our defenses has been very average for several years, even if the steelers have drafted a defensive player in the first round in each year since the 2013 season.

Yet our results were average at best ... Cowher was much better at developing a defense and overall a true identity to the team.

Ok. So making the playoffs and advancing is not wasting things but falling short of the SB is?

Out in the first, second, or third round - you still aren't in the SB.

Can we all agree on what the measuring stick is and then start throwing words like underachieved around?

[polamalubeast]

Some former players who played for Tomlin like Hines Ward and James Harrison criticized Tomlin in the last month for the lack of discipline or others thing like that.

Ward and Harrison were leaders and one of the faces in this team when they were with us .... I do not remember seeing players like Rod Woodson, Jerome Bettis or other players who were big leaders in this team said things like that on Cowher.

1078717411304591360

1091040172542697473

1085251515319705600

Hines Ward had Mike Tomlin during 5 years, Harrison around 10 seasons.

For Chuck Noll, yes he was maybe not liked, but he was very respected by his players.

- - - Updated - - -


Ok. So making the playoffs and advancing is not wasting things but falling short of the SB is?

Out in the first, second, or third round - you still aren't in the SB.

Can we all agree on what the measuring stick is and then start throwing words like underachieved around?


I'm not in the super bowl or bust mentality



What I hate is to lose against weaker teams than the ours in the Playoffs, especially when the steelers are talented ..... I mean, it happens 4 times that the steelers lost in the playoff against teams of 10 -6 or worse under Tomlin.... How many times does it happen to Cowher? .... 0!

If you want other info here is the post with some interresting info.


Here's some postseason stats
Cowher was 7-1 when the Steelers opened the playoffs at home, Tomlin is 3-3.
Overall in the first playoff game, Cowher is 8-2, Tomlin is 4-4.
Additionally, Cowher lost a postseason game to a team with a worse record 3 times including only 1 time to a team who had 2 or more wins less. Tomlin coaching fewer seasons mind you lost to 4 teams with worse records including 2x to teams with at least three fewer wins.
Cowher never lost a postseason game to a team that finished worse than 11-5, Tomlin has 4 such losses, including an 8-8 team.
Also when you look at the QBs Cowher lost to, none of them were as bad as Tebow or Bortles, and I'd argue that the only QB Cowher lost to that is on similar level to David Garrard is Stan Humphries

Though I will love for the pro Tomlin crowd to continue to bash Cowher to try and make Tomlin look better because there isn't many arguments to justify that at this point

[Born2Steel]

If we all agreed that Cowher was a better coach than Tomlin, can we all agree that Tomlin is still a top coach in the NFL today? I don’t understand why it’s all or none. By these standards no coach matches Cowher. Doesn’t mean they all are/were terrible coaches. It’s not all one side or the other.

[steelreserve]

You can Google it and read through the lists. Point is that Tomlin is viewed one way by Steelers fans and a vastly different way by the rest of NFL followers.

You mean the same "experts" who proclaim things like "the Steelers have a huge hole at wide receiver now that Hines Ward retired," or "now that LeVeon Bell's franchise tag holdout has reached the regular season, the Steelers just need to pay the man!" (????)

Yeah, I guess you're right that you can cone up with a completely different opinion of things when you're looking at them from arm's length reading headlines and fantasy football stats. Wouldn't call that more accurate than what I can see right in front of me. Ooh, it's on Google. Well holy christ, I guess everything that I know must be bullshit.

[polamalubeast]

If we all agreed that Cowher was a better coach than Tomlin, can we all agree that Tomlin is still a top coach in the NFL today? I don’t understand why it’s all or none. By these standards no coach matches Cowher. Doesn’t mean they all are/were terrible coaches. It’s not all one side or the other.

Tomlin had an argument for being one of the top coaches in this league in his first 4 seasons, but not right now ..... Tomlin is not even the best coach in the AFC north.

[AtlantaDan]

Some former players who played for Tomlin like Hines Ward and James Harrison criticized Tomlin in the last month for the lack of discipline or others thing like that.

Ward and Harrison were leaders and one of the faces in this team when they were with us .... I do not remember seeing players like Rod Woodson, Jerome Bettis or other players who were big leaders in this team said things like that on Cowher.

Tomlin has shortcomings as a coach but the gauzy recollections of Cowher are impacted by the passage of time leading to fans forgetting how Cowher also frustrated them when he was the HC.

Finally winning a Super Bowl addressed some of the frustration with the 1-4 record in home AFC championship games (in addition to the Chargers fiasco the Steelers were 10 point favorites in the first Pats loss that was due to special teams screwups that would be blamed on bad coaching if it happened to Tomlin). And the 2006 season where the season was effectively over after a 2-6 start was as bad as any season dialed up under Tomlin.

As for Cowher being the great disciplinarian ...

Remember what Jerome Bettis said after Plaxico Burress signed with the New York Giants in 2005? “I know [Burress] is not a stickler for the rules and [Giants coach Tom] Coughlin is all about rules … coach Cowher allowed us a lot of flexibility. He never fined us for anything. You came late, you never got fined. You never got reprimanded for anything.”

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/ron-cook/2016/08/09/Ron-Cook-It-s-Tomlin-over-Cowher-as-better-disciplinarian/stories/201608090015

Bottom line is given the failure rate for hiring HCs the Steelers hit the lottery three times with Noll, Cowher and Tomlin. Because there is no guarantee hire #4 will work out as well, the Steelers extending Cowher during rocky times presumably means Tomlin gets extended under the same standard given the likelihood of success if the Steelers decide it is time for a change.

[steelreserve]

If we all agreed that Cowher was a better coach than Tomlin, can we all agree that Tomlin is still a top coach in the NFL today?


Tomlin is not doing as well as the top coaches in the game today, so no, I don't think we can all agree on that.

If there's one thing he still has going in his favor, it's that he was hired by Dan Rooney, who usually managed to find decent people, and that his replacement would be hired by Art Rooney II, who frankly I have not got the same confidence in and could be all over the place. "Decent coach all things considered" is probably an appropriate title, but not "one of the top coaches in the game today" - and "one of the top coaches of all time" should be enough to make you spray Guinness out your nose all over your breakfast cereal.

[polamalubeast]

The Steelers were 10 points favorite against the Pats in 2001, but it was the same team that limited the greatest show on turf to 17 points in the super bowl despite the Pats defense was on the field for more than 33 minutes.

If a team can shut down the greatest show on turf, very good chance they will do the same against Kordell Stewart.

[steelreserve]

The Steelers were 10 points favorite against the Pats in 2001, but it was the same team that limited the greatest show on turf to 17 points in the super bowl despite the Pats defense was on the field for more than 33 minutes.

If a team can shut down the greatest show on turf, very good chance they will do the same against Kordell Stewart.

It helps when you know the opponent's plays because you are cheating. I mean, that specific year was the one where the actual evidence was from and they handed out suspensions and took away draft picks. Was also the same year as the Tuck Rule game, so they shouldn't have even been in the AFCCG or the Super Bowl in the first place.

In hindsight, that was probably the year football died.

[86WARD]

Bottom line: Tomlin has done less with more over a period of time than Cowher, Belichick or Harbaugh has.

[AtlantaDan]

Bottom line: Tomlin has done less with more over a period of time than Cowher, Belichick or Harbaugh has.

Hindsight is flawless

When Cowher was coaching in the pre-flag football era you could still win a Super Bowl with a journeyman like Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson at QB if you had an excellent defense. Cowher had excellent defenses during the pre-Ben era over an extended period of time and repeatedly came up short - pity he needed a HOF QB to get him over the top when Gruden and Brian Billick did not :rolleyes:

Neither Cowher or Tomlin (pending Tomlin having a late career burst of success) are on the Mount Rushmore of coaches - both careers are very good but not great.

I am willing to concede in terms of success and ability their careers are similar - for whatever reasons some Cowher acolytes not so much

[polamalubeast]

Hindsight is flawless

When Cowher was coaching in the pre-flag football era you could still win a Super Bowl with a journeyman like Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson at QB if you had an excellent defense. Cowher had excellent defenses during the pre-Ben era over an extended period of time and repeatedly came up short - pity he needed a HOF QB to get him over the top when Gruden and Brian Billick did not :rolleyes:

Neither Cowher or Tomlin (pending Tomlin having a late career burst of success) are on the Mount Rushmore of coaches - both careers are very good but not great.

I am willing to concede in terms of success and ability their careers are similar - for whatever reasons some Cowher acolytes not so much

Please...Gruden and Brian Billick had a historic defense that Cowher never had....Cowher has often had a great defense, but not at the level of Bucs in 2002 or the Ravens in 2000.

Also, the QB position was very important even in the Cowher era .... From 1992 to 2006 (during Cowher's 15 years) 13 of the 15 QBs that won the SB are or will be in the HOF.

And for Cowher, if Tony Dungy is in the HOF, I think Cowher deserves more consideration than that.

[Edman]

One great throw to Holmes? Sure, never mind the even better throw the play before that went sailing through Holmes' hands or even the clutch throws he made over the rest of that drive. Nor the fact that it was all done behind arguably the WORST championship-winning OL in the history of the game, which also just so happened to put the offense in a first-and-20 hole and within the shadow of its own end zone to begin said drive with yet another boneheaded holding penalty.

Against the 28th Ranked Cardinals Defense that did virtually nothing the rest of the game against.


Oh, and if Roethlisberger has only been "skirting the 2nd tier" of QBs his entire career, then how exactly has Tomlin "underachieved?" Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. Before Munchak came along, Roethlisberger had been routinely throwing darts with defenders in his face constantly behind OLs that would have gotten guys like P. Manning and Brady killed:

Tomlin underachieved because he still has a superior quarterback than anything Cowher could boast for 15 years, and can't win playoff games with him.

When I say Ben skirted "the second-tier" I don't mean in regards to his ability. I mean in regards to his peers of his generation. Ben has the ability to be great, instead we just get "good" with occasional bouts of "very good", and recently, Kordell Stewart-levels of inconsistency and Brett Favre turnover trainwrecks. That's where Tomlin's poor coaching comes in.


Roethlisberger had been routinely throwing darts with defenders in his face constantly behind OLs that would have gotten guys like P. Manning and Brady killed

And yet, Ben has been nowhere near as successful with a Pro Bowl Offensive Line in front of him and a more than solid collection of weapons around him.

Here are Ben's statlines for the last four playoff games he's played in (2-2).

2016 Wildcard: 13-18 197 Yds, 2 TD, 2 INT.
2016 Divisional: 20-31 224 Yds, 0 TD, 1 INT.
2016 Championship: 31-47 314 Yds, 1 TD, 1 INT.
2017 Divisional: 37-58 469 Yds, 5 TD, 1 INT,

The last game is the great Tomlin deception. You look at the statistics and think Ben had a fantastic game. Except he had One crushing Fumble resulting in 6 and stuck playing catch-up all game due to handing 14 easy points to Jacksonville. Steeler games like this have become commonplace under Tomlin. Inflated statistics in losing efforts, even though the Steelers (Ben in this case) put themselves into a hole in the first place. Due to lack of preparation and focus and once again failing to have his team ready to play a crucial game.

Like Tomlin's coaching record, you look at and it looks impressive, but when you go into context, it becomes far less impressive. The emporer has no clothes. Tomlin is a godawful coach who has done nothing but waste the potential and talent of a good quarterback.

[polamalubeast]

And for Gruden and Billick who have won a super bowl without a good QB .... the problem is that after that, they have not been close .... Billick won only one more playoffs game in the next 7 years .... 0 for Gruden in his last 6 years with the Bucs and often their offense was a laughing stock in the NFL .... Remember when Jon Gruden decided to kick the field goal with no time remaining in the 4th quarter against the Steelers in 2006 when it was 20-0!

And both were a offensive coach!

[polamalubeast]

Is Steelers Head Coach Mike Tomlin in the hot seat in Pittsburgh?

Even among casual football fans, Steelers head coach Mike Tomlin is known throughout league. In his early years, he developed a reputation as a young coach who was never phased by big moments and never let his emotions show.

In recent years, however, that persona of Tomlin has gradually been changing.

Tomlin took over for the great Bill Cowher as the Steelers head coach in 2007. During his tenure in Pittsburgh, Coach Tomlin has 8 seasons of 10 or more wins and zero seasons with a losing record.

So how is Mike Tomlin in the hot seat?

The Rooney family and Steelers Nation alike pride themselves of being one of the nation’s best football franchises. Winning is part of the culture in Pittsburgh, and the Steelers have done it as much as any team in the league.

Lately, however, things haven’t been going according to plan.

read more

https://stillcurtain.com/2019/05/09/is-mike-tomlin-in-the-hot-seat/

[Mojouw]

Ok. Who is the better coach Mike Tomlin or:

Sean Payton
John Harbaugh
Mike Holmgren
Don Shula
Pete Carroll
Jon Gruden

The # of championships and playoff winning percentages is roughly comparable among that entire list. While I am not saying everyone on that list is a comparable coach...that is why we have to figure out what the basis for comparison is or is not. By the standard that is being thrown around on here, Shula should've been fired at least twice in his Dolphins tenure.

Paul Brown has a .333 winning percentage in the post merger playoffs. Guess that dude should've been fired.

[Edman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJEu0svWkrc

This is why Mike Tomlin shouldn't be considered a good coach in any aspect. Or even Top 15-20 of his generation. Ben looks like a absolute God with a cobble of second-tier wideouts behind Hines Ward.

Now, we can't beat far shittier Quarterbacks in the playoffs at home, or shitty Raider teams, with Ben and far more talented players. This is the "revisionist" Cowher history people miss.

[tube517]

I did not know any of this until you mentioned it and I did a little research. In that research even Cowher admits he didn't value the QB position. That was a real eye opener to me. As for Dan he was simply the best and without a doubt he will be missed not only by Pittsburgh but the NFL as a whole.

At least Cowher had the good sense to listen to him and changed his mind unlike Walt Kiesling who let Johnny Unitas walk many years earlier. Wow Johnny U and Dan Marino what could have been. Thank goodness lightning did not strike us a 3rd time. Dan really had an eye for QBs.

It's in Dan Rooney's book.

Cowher had no choice but to listen.

Rooney didn't want another Marino to slip away and thank God he stepped in.

I like Cowher and Tomlin and they are both good coaches but not great. Both had their flaws. Both have pissed me off many times.

[AtlantaDan]

Ok. Who is the better coach Mike Tomlin or:

Sean Payton
John Harbaugh
Mike Holmgren
Don Shula
Pete Carroll
Jon Gruden

The # of championships and playoff winning percentages is roughly comparable among that entire list. While I am not saying everyone on that list is a comparable coach...that is why we have to figure out what the basis for comparison is or is not. By the standard that is being thrown around on here, Shula should've been fired at least twice in his Dolphins tenure.

Paul Brown has a .333 winning percentage in the post merger playoffs. Guess that dude should've been fired.

Paul Brown owned the team, which provided some job security :chuckle:

[tube517]

Paul Brown owned the team, which provided some job security :chuckle:

Self hostage??? :chuckle:

[AtlantaDan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJEu0svWkrc

This is why Mike Tomlin shouldn't be considered a good coach in any aspect. Or even Top 15-20 of his generation. Ben looks like a absolute God with a cobble of second-tier wideouts behind Hines Ward.

Yeah Ben was a far better QB from 2004 - 2006 than he has been under Tomlin - obviously the coaching

Who gets the blame for the Super Bowl performance two weeks later against the Seahawks - Ben or Whisenhunt? :noidea:

[Craic]

Yep Cowher was a perfect 7-0 in the postseason against teams who finished worse than 11-5. Tomlin is a paltry 3-4 against teams that finished worse than 11-5

That stat also quietly ignores other facts, like before Cowher's SB win, only two teams in sixteen seasons (since 1990) won the SB who were not a first or second seed. From SB 40 on (14 seasons), six have won it who were not a first (EDIT-or second) seed, and of those, two were 6th seeds, 1 a fifth seed, and 4 a fourth seed.

What does that stat mean? It means comparing records of playoff teams is meaningless because regular season team records are not indicators of how good a team is in the playoffs since 2006.

[slippy]

all true, Craic! the game has changed so much in just the last ten years, not to mention the last 30.

[polamalubeast]

Ok. Who is the better coach Mike Tomlin or:

Sean Payton
John Harbaugh
Mike Holmgren
Don Shula
Pete Carroll
Jon Gruden

The # of championships and playoff winning percentages is roughly comparable among that entire list. While I am not saying everyone on that list is a comparable coach...that is why we have to figure out what the basis for comparison is or is not. By the standard that is being thrown around on here, Shula should've been fired at least twice in his Dolphins tenure.

Paul Brown has a .333 winning percentage in the post merger playoffs. Guess that dude should've been fired.

Context again

Sean Payton is a great offensive mind and he was very unlucky in his career in the playoffs ... I mean several heartbreak loss at the end of the game like in 2011,2017 and 2018 ... With a little more of luck, Payton would have had at least 2 more participation in the super bowl (2011 and 2018) and probably at least one super bowl win in his two years (2011).

John Harbaugh has never lost to a team worse than 11-5 in the playoffs too .... When Harbaugh loses, it's often games where the Ravens gave an great fight even if the ravens were huge underdog like in 2008 and 2014 or some defeat very heartbreak like in 2010 and 2011.The 2 worst lost of the Ravens under Harbaugh are vs Chargers with a rookie QB and vs Colts in 2009.But he has 10 playoffs win, 7 on the road(tie with Tom Landry and Tom Coughlin for the most ever) and his team had a chance to win in 14 of his 16 games in the 4th quarter despite several game as underdog ... Never been easy to play against the ravens in the playoffs,no matter their roster.

Mike Holmgren with the packers ... They lost 3 times against a great cowboys team and one time against a great Broncos team in 1997 before losing on a miracle against the 49ers in 1998 .... The packers beat the 49ers with Steve Young 3 times In 1995 to 1997, twice on the road ... Brett Favre had his best season under Holmgren with 3 MVP.

For Don Shula, great coach in the 1970s, but very disappointing with Marino ... The dolphins could not stop or run the ball to save their life with Marino ... Still a great coach in the 1970s.

Carroll, despite having a lot of big personality in the lockeroom of the seahawks in the past, the Seahawks have not imploded like the steelers.

I can not comment on Paul Brown, not enough info on him.

[Mojouw]

Context again

Sean Payton is a great offensive mind and he was very unlucky in his career in the playoffs ... I mean several heartbreak loss at the end of the game like in 2011,2017 and 2018 ... With a little more of luck, Payton would have had at least 2 more participation in the super bowl (2011 and 2018) and probably at least one super bowl win in his two years (2011).

John Harbaugh has never lost to a team worse than 11-5 in the playoffs too .... When Harbaugh loses, it's often games where the Ravens gave an great fight even if the ravens were huge underdog like in 2008 and 2014 or some defeat very heartbreak like in 2010 and 2011.The 2 worst lost of the Ravens under Harbaugh are vs Chargers with a rookie QB and vs Colts in 2009.But he has 10 playoffs win, 7 on the road(tie with Tom Landry and Tom Coughlin for the most ever) and his team had a chance to win in 14 of his 16 games in the 4th quarter despite several game as underdog ... Never been easy to play against the ravens in the playoffs,no matter their roster.

Mike Holmgren with the packers ... They lost 3 times against a great cowboys team and one time against a great Broncos team in 1997 before losing on a miracle against the 49ers in 1998 .... The packers beat the 49ers with Steve Young 3 times In 1995 to 1997, twice on the road ... Brett Favre had his best season under Holmgren with 3 MVP.

For Don Shula, great coach in the 1970s, but very disappointing with Marino ... The dolphins could not stop or run the ball to save their life with Marino ... Still a great coach in the 1970s.

Carroll, despite having a lot of big personality in the lockeroom of the seahawks in the past, the Seahawks have not imploded like the steelers.

I can not comment on Paul Brown, not enough info on him.

Those are all totally subjective evaluation criteria. That is fine. I don't think Tomlin is a better coach than that whole list either. But my limited point is that without consistent and specific evaluation criteria, it is hard to tell where everyone is coming from. The whole "ranking" seems to be wildly subjective and can be massaged to prove any point myself, you, or the internet at large would like.

Perhaps beauty is in the eye of the beholder?

[polamalubeast]

Yeah Ben was a far better QB from 2004 - 2006 than he has been under Tomlin - obviously the coaching

Who gets the blame for the Super Bowl performance two weeks later against the Seahawks - Ben or Whisenhunt? :noidea:

Ben

This game would have been a blowout if Ben don't misses an easy TD in the 3rd quarter in the redzone ...... it would have been 21-3 instead of 14-10

[polamalubeast]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJEu0svWkrc

This is why Mike Tomlin shouldn't be considered a good coach in any aspect. Or even Top 15-20 of his generation. Ben looks like a absolute God with a cobble of second-tier wideouts behind Hines Ward.

Now, we can't beat far shittier Quarterbacks in the playoffs at home, or shitty Raider teams, with Ben and far more talented players. This is the "revisionist" Cowher history people miss.

Interesting things about this video

Before this game, the Broncos were 4-0 at home in the AFC title game .... They are now 6-1, the only defeat of the Broncos is of course against the Steelers in 2005 ...Even the Patriots in the Brady and Belichick are have problems to win in Denver in the playoffs .... 0-3 there for them.

Denver has always been one of the best homefield advantage in sports, no matter the quality of the team, never easy to win there and the steelers have been awful in this place in their history .... That's what makes this win unbelievable

Another thing I heard ... The steelers had no penalty on offense in 144 snaps and all his snap were on the road, including a game in Indianapolis, another place very noisy, which is impressive and under Bill Cowher the steelers were often disciplined and the details were very important.

Also, I miss the time that the steelers were true road warriors! ... I mean, the two best season on the road by Roethlisberger in his career in efficiency is probably in 2004 and 2005 .... Ben was like 14-1 on the road including the playoffs in his first 2 seasons and overall the steelers had had 11 straight wins on the road in 2004 and 2005 before losing to Baltimore and Indianapolis, but in the playoffs the steelers were once again road warriors .... The Steelers had won 41-0 in week 16 in Cleveland in a must win .... this game was considered a trap game for the steelers ... Do you really think that steelers would have been focused to dominate this game if Tomlin would have been the coach ... I do not think .... I think the steelers would have won this game, but it would have been a coin-toss game ... I do not think the steelers would have been in the AFC title game under Tomlin in 2005.

[Fire Goodell]

Interesting things about this video

Before this game, the Broncos were 4-0 at home in the AFC title game .... They are now 6-1, the only defeat of the Broncos is of course against the Steelers in 2005 ...Even the Patriots in the Brady and Belichick are have problems to win in Denver in the playoffs .... 0-3 there for them.

Denver has always been one of the best homefield advantage in sports, no matter the quality of the team, never easy to win there and the steelers have been awful in this place in their history .... That's what makes this win unbelievable

Another thing I heard ... The steelers had no penalty on offense in 144 snaps and all his snap were on the road, including a game in Indianapolis, another place very noisy, which is impressive and under Bill Cowher the steelers were often disciplined and the details were very important.

Also, I miss the time that the steelers were true road warriors! ... I mean, the two best season on the road by Roethlisberger in his career in efficiency is probably in 2004 and 2005 .... Ben was like 14-1 on the road including the playoffs in his first 2 seasons and overall the steelers had had 11 straight wins on the road in 2004 and 2005 before losing to Baltimore and Indianapolis, but in the playoffs the steelers were once again road warriors .... The Steelers had won 41-0 in week 16 in Cleveland in a must win .... this game was considered a trap game for the steelers ... Do you really think that steelers would have been focused to dominate this game if Tomlin would have been the coach ... I do not think .... I think the steelers would have won this game, but it would have been a coin-toss game ... I do not think the steelers would have been in the AFC title game under Tomlin in 2005.

That team was truly special. I knew after we beat Indy that no team was going to stop us on our way to the Super Bowl. Not even the Broncos with their homefield advantage, I literally was not worried at all this game. After Indy, we went to the best team in the league's house and would have won decisively had Bettis not fumbled. And that game wasn't a fluke either. I knew Denver was toast heading into this game, and they were.

[polamalubeast]

That team was truly special. I knew after we beat Indy that no team was going to stop us on our way to the Super Bowl. Not even the Broncos with their homefield advantage, I literally was not worried at all this game. After Indy, we went to the best team in the league's house and would have won decisively had Bettis not fumbled. And that game wasn't a fluke either. I knew Denver was toast heading into this game, and they were.

Yes, I was very confident after the win on the road against the best team in the NFL that the steelers would win the super bowl.

For the super bowl, in my opinion if Roethlisberger don't misses the pass in the end zone this game would have been a blowout as well(despite the very slow start by the steelers offense in the First half) ... it would have been 21-3 instead of 14-10 and the defense and the running game would have closed the game.

[ALLD]

Bottom line: Tomlin has done less with more over a period of time than Cowher, Belichick or Harbaugh has.

Tomlin's efficiency rating is in the toilet and he won the SB with Cowher's players. He has since run the team into the ground, no pun intended. It's more entertainment now than NFL winning football. I bet he stays up at night thinking of new BS to spew at press conferences to cover up for the lack of preparedness by the team.

[polamalubeast]

That stat also quietly ignores other facts, like before Cowher's SB win, only two teams in sixteen seasons (since 1990) won the SB who were not a first or second seed. From SB 40 on (14 seasons), six have won it who were not a first (EDIT-or second) seed, and of those, two were 6th seeds, 1 a fifth seed, and 4 a fourth seed.

What does that stat mean? It means comparing records of playoff teams is meaningless because regular season team records are not indicators of how good a team is in the playoffs since 2006.

It was true from 2005 to 2012, but since 2013 each teams which have participated in the super bowl was in the first or second seed (The 2018 were the first super bowl winner not to be in the first seed in their conference since 2012)

Also, yes football has changed a lot since Cowher retired, but at the same time we saw some mediocre or average QB in the NFC and AFC title game or in the super bowl....2 years ago, Case Keenum and Blake Bortles were in the championship game ... 2015, Peyton Manning wins the super bowl even if he was the worst starting QB in the nfl in that year ..... Was very close to see Joe Flacco and Alex Smith in the super bowl in 2011, even if we had 3 QBs with 5,000 yards in that year.(Eli Manning was very close at more that 4900 yards)...I can also say Nick Foles in 2017 and Flacco in 2012, but they were very hot during the playoffs.

It's always possible to get far in the playoffs with a mediocre QB, but it's very hard to be very consistent in any era, which Harbaugh (before Flacco's big contract) and Cowher were for most of the time, which was impressive.

Joe Gibbs was the best to win with a journeyman.

[AtlantaDan]

Also, I miss the time that the steelers were true road warriors!.

Me too - It's been months since that happened :chuckle:

The Pittsburgh Steelers have been better on the road than at Heinz Field over the past calendar year. Following their loss to the Chicago Bears on September 24, 2017, the Steelers are 10-0-1 in games outside of Pittsburgh. The Steelers kept their road streak this past Sunday, when they defeated the Jaguars in Jacksonville on Sunday, 20-16. Overall, Pittsburgh is 15-1-1 on in their last 17 road games dating back to the 2016 season.

https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Article/Steelers-are-10-0-1-in-their-last-11-away-games-122505288/

[polamalubeast]

Me too - It's been months since that happened :chuckle:

The Pittsburgh Steelers have been better on the road than at Heinz Field over the past calendar year. Following their loss to the Chicago Bears on September 24, 2017, the Steelers are 10-0-1 in games outside of Pittsburgh. The Steelers kept their road streak this past Sunday, when they defeated the Jaguars in Jacksonville on Sunday, 20-16. Overall, Pittsburgh is 15-1-1 on in their last 17 road games dating back to the 2016 season.

https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Article/Steelers-are-10-0-1-in-their-last-11-away-games-122505288/

Unfortunately, they lost their last 3 road games, including a must win in Oakland.Also, only 4 of his 15 wins on the road were by 10 points or more ... Many of his games were a coin toss game.

In 2004 and 2005, the steelers were 16-3 on the road including the playoffs ..... 9 of his wins were by more than 10 points or more .... so more dominant.

[AtlantaDan]

Unfortunately, they lost their last 3 road games, including a must win in Oakland.Also, only 4 of his 15 wins on the road were by 10 points or more ... Many of his games were a coin toss game.

In 2004 and 2005, the steelers were 16-3 on the road including the playoffs ..... 9 of his wins were by more than 10 points or more .... so more dominant.

Agreed about the last three games of 2018

Not taking shots at you, just observing that it as if anything good that has happened during the past several years has been purged from our collective memory banks because of Al Riveron, the Jax playoff disaster, and the Denver/LA/Oakland cluster (Saints road loss was to a good team in a tough road venue)

:drink:

[polamalubeast]

Agreed about the last three games of 2018

Not taking shots at you, just observing that it as if anything good that has happened during the past several years has been purged from our collective memory banks because of Al Riveron, the Jax playoff disaster, and the Denver/LA/Oakland cluster (Saints road loss was to a good team in a tough road venue)

:drink:

I will try to be clear to everyone

The loss against the saints ... I can live with that ... it was a good effort, but unfortunately this game was a playoff game because of our unacceptable loss against the Raiders.The loss against the Pats in 2017 also I can live with that, great effort, we lost AB early in the game and of course this game was a coin-toss game at the end.I can live with losses like that, even if it's heartbreaking .... But when we lose games like Denver because of the steelers shoot themselves in the foot like crazy, it's so frustrating ..... The loss against the Jaguars, it was very embarrassing because the focus was not at the right place or the loss once again in Denver in 2011 because of a horrible game plan .... it was horrible.

I can even accept losses like the one against the 2014 Ravens because the steelers had nobody to replace Bell and 2015 in Denver because of all the injuries, but some other losses are not acceptable and the steelers have had too much losses like that in the last couple years.

And of course, it's not just on the field that's the problem, off the field this is even worse, but it'll be for another time!

[86WARD]

Ok. Who is the better coach Mike Tomlin or:

Sean Payton - NO
John Harbaugh - DRAW
Mike Holmgren - NO
Don Shula - YES
Pete Carroll - DRAW, LEAN TOWARDS TOMLIN
Jon Gruden - NO


.

[Craic]

I will try to be clear to everyone

The loss against the saints ... I can live with that ... it was a good effort, but unfortunately this game was a playoff game because of our unacceptable loss against the Raiders.The loss against the Pats in 2017 also I can live with that, great effort, we lost AB early in the game and of course this game was a coin-toss game at the end.I can live with losses like that, even if it's heartbreaking .... But when we lose games like Denver because of the steelers shoot themselves in the foot like crazy, it's so frustrating ..... The loss against the Jaguars, it was very embarrassing because the focus was not at the right place or the loss once again in Denver in 2011 because of a horrible game plan .... it was horrible.

I can even accept losses like the one against the 2014 Ravens because the steelers had nobody to replace Bell and 2015 in Denver because of all the injuries, but some other losses are not acceptable and the steelers have had too much losses like that in the last couple years.

And of course, it's not just on the field that's the problem, off the field this is even worse, but it'll be for another time!

Hmm, had this been the OP, this thread would probably have taken on a whole different tone. Very good post. Nothing here I can disagree with.

[Craic]

http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Mojouw http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php?p=691576#post691576)Ok. Who is the better coach Mike Tomlin or:

Sean Payton - NO
John Harbaugh - DRAW
Mike Holmgren - NO
Don Shula - YES
Pete Carroll - DRAW, LEAN TOWARDS TOMLIN

Jon Gruden - NO

Hmm, 70s Shula? I'd say yes. 80's Shula, no. I'd also say draw with Payton. He had something going, and the NFL really broke it with the whole bounty thing. Of course, I've always wondered why coaches were suspended (one indefinitely, the head coach a year, and so on) but no suspensions for spygate.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Hmm, 70s Shula? I'd say yes. 80's Shula, no. I'd also say draw with Payton. He had something going, and the NFL really broke it with the whole bounty thing. Of course, I've always wondered why coaches were suspended (one indefinitely, the head coach a year, and so on) but no suspensions for spygate.

I like Tomlin, but still take Payton over him. When has Payton had the best WR and Best RB to go with a top 5 QB and not been able to keep it together?
Holmgren, I still take over Tomlin. Did he handle the Donovan McNabb-TO situation better than Ben-AB-Bell? Did he let Jim Johnson put an ILB on the opposition best WR?
Shula, HOF and better than Tomlin, lets be serious.
Harbaugh, nope.

- - - Updated - - -

..and Pete Carroll I cant stand, but he did an amazing job with a brutal team last year to get them in the playoffs with a patchwork o line and running game. Carroll out coached Tomlin last season for sure.

[Craic]

I like Tomlin, but still take Payton over him. When has Payton had the best WR and Best RB to go with a top 5 QB and not been able to keep it together?
Holmgren, I still take over Tomlin. Did he handle the Donovan McNabb-TO situation better than Ben-AB-Bell? Did he let Jim Johnson put an ILB on the opposition best WR?
Shula, HOF and better than Tomlin, lets be serious.
Harbaugh, nope.

- - - Updated - - -

..and Pete Carroll I cant stand, but he did an amazing job with a brutal team last year to get them in the playoffs with a patchwork o line and running game. Carroll out coached Tomlin last season for sure.
Well, seeing as our top WR and RB and QB barely saw the field together, I wouldn't make that much of a determiner. Bell isn't a Tomlin issue. Bell is a Bell issue. AB, meh. There's things I think Tomlin did wrong. But I also see a trajectory with AB even after he's left this team that scares me for him as a human being (I truly think he's suffering from CTE). That being said, he kept this team together for several years if all those attitudes were in the lockerroom and nothing ever came out about it until the end of this year. TO was an issue the entire year if I remember correctly. Shula in the 70s I'd absolutely agree with you. Shula in the 80s, not so much. Shula in the 80s is like Noll in the last part of the 80s, way past his prime and time to go. As for Pete Carroll, are we talking the Patriots Carroll? No way do I take him over Tomlin. Seattle Carroll? Well, do I get all of his college player knowledge his first few years in the league? If so, absolutely. Of course, where are they now? He didn't hold that team together too well. Although I admit that may be unfair since they were all wanting big contracts. Of course, talk about a patchwork o line . . . Tomlin had a SB team with a patchwork O line that featured Hartwig at center, Darnell Stapleton and Chris Kemoeatu on either side, and Starks and Colon as the tackles—and that was during Starks's down years in the middle of his career (he elevated his game decently a couple years thereafter).

Speaking of which, that reminded me of one of my favorite Steelers plays of all time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfaJhUDRlDc

[polamalubeast]

I like Tomlin, but still take Payton over him. When has Payton had the best WR and Best RB to go with a top 5 QB and not been able to keep it together?
Holmgren, I still take over Tomlin. Did he handle the Donovan McNabb-TO situation better than Ben-AB-Bell? Did he let Jim Johnson put an ILB on the opposition best WR?
Shula, HOF and better than Tomlin, lets be serious.
Harbaugh, nope.

- - - Updated - - -

..and Pete Carroll I cant stand, but he did an amazing job with a brutal team last year to get them in the playoffs with a patchwork o line and running game. Carroll out coached Tomlin last season for sure.

It was Andy Reid the HC in the McNabb-T.O situation in 2005,not Holmgren...Mike Holmgren was the HC of the Packers in 1992 to 1998 and the Seahawks in 1999 to 2008.

[86WARD]

Hmm, 70s Shula? I'd say yes. 80's Shula, no. I'd also say draw with Payton. He had something going, and the NFL really broke it with the whole bounty thing. Of course, I've always wondered why coaches were suspended (one indefinitely, the head coach a year, and so on) but no suspensions for spygate.

Reason I saw NO on Payton is he shoots himself in the foot more than any other coach out there. Just last season, his non-sense with Jason Hill I’m at QB over Brees was just drive killing at times. He makes an extra effort of trying to look like the smart guy and just over thinks it. I like Payton and wouldn’t mind if he was the Steelers head coach, but he’s got more of those dopey coach ideas than Tomlin does. But I wouldn’t argue if you say it’s a draw...

[86WARD]

I like Tomlin, but still take Payton over him. When has Payton had the best WR and Best RB to go with a top 5 QB and not been able to keep it together?


Last season. He made some boneheaded coaching moves.

[polamalubeast]

Last season. He made some boneheaded coaching moves.

The saints were still 13-3 and the saints would have been in the super bowl without the terrible non-call by the referees

Also, Kamara and Thomas are two amazing players and he had Mark Ingram, but after that the weapon of the saints was very mediocre ... They had signed Dez Bryant to be a WR 2, but unfortunately for them he got hurt in practice and the saints had no second receiver, but they still scored more than 500 points.

[fansince'76]

The saints were still 13-3 and the saints would have been in the super bowl without the terrible non-call by the referees

The Saints would have been 12-4 and the Steelers would have made the playoffs if the refs hadn't gifted the Saints 2 scores when the Steelers played them, so cry me a river about the Saints getting jobbed in the postseason...

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

The saints were still 13-3 and the saints would have been in the super bowl without the terrible non-call by the referees

Also, Kamara and Thomas are two amazing players and he had Mark Ingram, but after that the weapon of the saints was very mediocre ... They had signed Dez Bryant to be a WR 2, but unfortunately for them he got hurt in practice and the saints had no second receiver, but they still scored more than 500 points.

Agreed. Saints still should have been in the Super Bowl last year. Take Brees, Thomas, Kamara and then compare to Ben, Brown, Bell. What group is better and what coach did a better job using that talent to get the team closer to championship games?

Again, I like Tomlin as a coach generally, but I cannot rate Payton as substandard to Tomlin.

[polamalubeast]

The Saints would have been 12-4 and the Steelers would have made the playoffs if the refs hadn't gifted the Saints 2 scores when the Steelers played them, so cry me a river about the Saints getting jobbed in the postseason...

No

Even if the saints would have lost against the Steelers, they would have ended up at 13-3 since Brees and the other starters would have played in the week 17 for the number one seed against the Panthers without Cam Newton and a team that had 7 losses in a row.

And losing a game in the regular season and in the playoffs, it's not the same thing ... I know it was a playoff game against the saints for the steelers, but if they would not have lost some stupid game like the game against the Raiders, it would not have been a playoff game.

[fansince'76]

No

Even if the saints would have lost against the Steelers, they would have ended up at 13-3 since Brees and the other starters would have played in the week 17 against the Panthers without Cam Newton and a team that had 7 losses in a row.

And losing a game in the regular season and in the playoffs, it's not the same thing ... I know it was a playoff game against the saints for the steelers, but if they would not have lost some stupid game like the game against the Raiders, it would not have been a playoff game.

Nice crystal ball you got there - you pick lotto numbers too?

[steelreserve]

Hmm, 70s Shula? I'd say yes. 80's Shula, no. I'd also say draw with Payton. He had something going, and the NFL really broke it with the whole bounty thing. Of course, I've always wondered why coaches were suspended (one indefinitely, the head coach a year, and so on) but no suspensions for spygate.

Why not '80s Shula? He won a lot of regular-season games, even lost a Super Bowl. Had a great offense and a defense that was constantly a liability, which he never fixed. Had one of the best QBs in the game the whole 10 years and didn't do shit with it. Sounds really familiar.

You know how Mojouw was saying Steelers fans habe a different view of the coach than other people looking at the situation objectively? It definitely works the other way too.

[polamalubeast]

Nice crystal ball you got there - you pick lotto numbers too?

If you think the saints would have lost at home against the panthers, it's just you

But I would have liked to be at 12-4 in the number 2 seed in the worst case or at least to be overtime in the NFC title game.

It was a heartbreaking loss for the saints, but at least they were close, which the steelers were not in the last 8 years.

[AtlantaDan]

Agreed. Saints still should have been in the Super Bowl last year. Take Brees, Thomas, Kamara and then compare to Ben, Brown, Bell. What group is better and what coach did a better job using that talent to get the team closer to championship games?

Again, I like Tomlin as a coach generally, but I cannot rate Payton as substandard to Tomlin.

Agreed - you can throw the same rocks at both of them

Payton has been to one conference championship game since the Saints won the Super Bowl and missed the playoffs three straight years during that stretch with a QB universally regarded to be at least as good and usually better than Ben - although bonus points to Payton for getting suspended during that stretch

And now they both face being tied to an aging QB - the Saints offense dropped off after Thanksgiving last year and, as Peyton Manning showed, when it goes for a great QB who gets old it can go quickly

[fansince'76]

If you think the saints would have lost at home against the panthers, it's just you

But I would have liked to be at 12-4 in the number 2 seed in the worst case or at least to be overtime in the NFC title game.

It was a heartbreaking loss for the saints, but at least they were close, which the steelers were not in the last 8 years.

Yeah, chances are the Saints would have beaten the Panthers had their starters played, but we'll never really know for sure, will we? "Any given Sunday" is a cliché for a reason.

And it seems to me the Saints haven't really won anything since 2010 themselves. Another "budding dynasty" that never materialized, much like the new Packers "dynasty" that was supposed to happen after they beat the Steelers in the SB the following year. And "close" only counts for hand grenades and horseshoes.

[tube517]

It was Andy Reid the HC in the McNabb-T.O situation in 2005,not Holmgren...Mike Holmgren was the HC of the Packers in 1992 to 1998 and the Seahawks in 1999 to 2008.

Correct but Holmgren and Reid are both walruses so easy to confuse

[polamalubeast]

Agreed - you can throw the same rocks at both of them

Payton has been to one conference championship game since the Saints won the Super Bowl and missed the playoffs three straight years during that stretch with a QB universally regarded to be at least as good and usually better than Ben - although bonus points to Payton for getting suspended during that stretch

And now they both face being tied to an aging QB - the Saints offense dropped off after Thanksgiving last year and, as Peyton Manning showed, when it goes for a great QB who gets old it can go quickly

The Saints had so much atrocious defense in the 3 years that missed the playoffs ..... If Sean Payton would have been a defensive coach, he would have been fired during that time .... But he's a offensive coach, so I I do not know how Payton can be blamed for the atrocious defense that the Saints had .... It was more because of the lack of talent in his defense ... The offense has always performed at a very high level, no matter what weapons surrounding Brees.

Also, the saints have had so much heartbreak loss since their super bowl win .... 2011 against the 49ers when the defense gives a game winning drive to Alex Smith to lose the game .... and the saints had not had a playoff bye despite a 13-3 record, only team not have a playoffs bye with 13 win since 2000 ... in 2017, the miracle that the Vikings had at the end of the game and the no call against rams l last year cost a super bowl berth.

The saints could accomplish much more, but several heartbreak losses in the playoffs.

- - - Updated - - -


Yeah, chances are the Saints would have beaten the Panthers had their starters played, but we'll never really know for sure, will we? "Any given Sunday" is a cliché for a reason.

And it seems to me the Saints haven't really won anything since 2010 themselves. Another "budding dynasty" that never materialized, much like the new Packers "dynasty" that was supposed to happen after they beat the Steelers in the SB the following year. And "close" only counts for hand grenades and horseshoes.

It's better to be close than not to be there, otherwise Marv Levis or Bud Grant = Marvin Lewis.

This is my point.

[fansince'76]

Correct but Holmgren and Reid are both walruses so easy to confuse

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wwEzMB937-w/hqdefault.jpg

:chuckle:

[fansince'76]

It's better to be close than not to be there, otherwise Marv Levis or Bud Grant = Marvin Lewis.

This is my point.

So, the Saints lost multiple Super Bowls? I guess I missed that.

[AtlantaDan]

The Saints had so much atrocious defense in the 3 years that missed the playoffs ..... If Sean Payton would have been a defensive coach, he would have been fired during that time .... But he's a offensive coach, so I I do not know how Payton can be blamed for the atrocious defense that the Saints had .... It was more because of the lack of talent in his defense ... The offense has always performed at a very high level, no matter what weapons surrounding Brees.

???

Just like Tomlin has been excused as head coach for the offense allegedly underperforming while having AB, Bell & Ben because his specialty is defense? I guess I missed those posts from the Tomlin must go crew. :noidea:

[polamalubeast]

So, the Saints lost multiple Super Bowls? I guess I missed that.

Or in this case Andy Reid = Marvin Lewis

How many coaches had so many heartbreaking loss in the playoffs that Sean Payton?

He has some coach, like Marty Schottenheimer, a great coach who has never had a break in the playoffs in his life, but Sean Payton has had many who have had a chance to go to the super bowl or NFC title game as in 2011, 2017 and 2018 but unfortunately a bad thing happens.

- - - Updated - - -


???

Just like Tomlin has been excused as head coach for the offense allegedly underperforming while having AB, Bell & Ben because his specialty is defense? I guess I missed those posts from the Tomlin must go crew. :noidea:

It's not like if our defense has been elite since Dick Lebeau left .... Very little progress.

[polamalubeast]

Also, with the exception of the embarrassing loss against the Seahawks in 2010, each time the saints lost in the playoffs, it was against a 13-3 team, so no major disappointment in the playoffs outside of 2010.

[Edman]

Hmm, had this been the OP, this thread would probably have taken on a whole different tone. Very good post. Nothing here I can disagree with.

Discussions like this need to happen regardless of how they turn out. I hold no ill towards anyone on this board, we have a discussion, and we just disagree.

At the end of the day, we are all fans of the Steelers, and deep down we are exceptionally disappointed with Tomlin's performance. Some are just more brash about it (Like me) than others. I've effectively lost my patience with Tomlin (Thank God I don't own he team), and despite the act that Art II is putting on, I'm thinking he's getting tired of it too, especially after last season.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Or in this case Andy Reid = Marvin Lewis.

Now, this is one I cant get on board with. Getting to championship games and super bowl and losing, shows ability to get your teams to the playoffs and win some games. Lewis has been able to get teams to wildcard games and not win those games. IMO Andy Reid >>> Lewis.

[polamalubeast]

Now, this is one I cant get on board with. Getting to championship games and super bowl and losing, shows ability to get your teams to the playoffs and win some games. Lewis has been able to get teams to wildcard games and not win those games. IMO Andy Reid >>> Lewis.

That's why I said in post 127 in this thread that it's better to be close than not to be here!

[86WARD]

The Saints had so much atrocious defense in the 3 years that missed the playoffs ..... If Sean Payton would have been a defensive coach, he would have been fired during that time .... But he's a offensive coach, so I I do not know how Payton can be blamed for the atrocious defense that the Saints had .... It was more because of the lack of talent in his defense ... The offense has always performed at a very high level, no matter what weapons surrounding Brees.

Also, the saints have had so much heartbreak loss since their super bowl win .... 2011 against the 49ers when the defense gives a game winning drive to Alex Smith to lose the game .... and the saints had not had a playoff bye despite a 13-3 record, only team not have a playoffs bye with 13 win since 2000 ... in 2017, the miracle that the Vikings had at the end of the game and the no call against rams l last year cost a super bowl berth.

The saints could accomplish much more, but several heartbreak losses in the playoffs.

- - - Updated - - -



It's better to be close than not to be there, otherwise Marv Levis or Bud Grant = Marvin Lewis.

This is my point.

BREAKING NEWS: Head coach is in charge of offense, defense AND special teams.

[pczach]

Agreed. Saints still should have been in the Super Bowl last year. Take Brees, Thomas, Kamara and then compare to Ben, Brown, Bell. What group is better and what coach did a better job using that talent to get the team closer to championship games?

Again, I like Tomlin as a coach generally, but I cannot rate Payton as substandard to Tomlin.


Bell hasn't been available for a few post season games, and none of last year. Also, Payton has had a proven sidekick to Kamara in Mark Ingram. The dominance of their running game says a lot about the skill position talent and the OL.

I've stated more than a few times that the lack of depth has hampered the Steelers' running game, particularly with Bell out of the picture last year. There are no more excuses this year as they addressed the RB position. They need to run the ball more. If they do that, and aren't very effective, the OL may be a bit overrated. Great in pass protection, but they have been regressing in yards per carry for a few seasons now and struggling in short yardage situations. Many were saying it was Bell, but this team has struggled to run the ball in short yardage situations for years now.

Hopefully, a stronger emphasis on the run game will harden the team on both sides of the ball.

I like Payton too, but he really hasn't proven that he is any better or has accomplished any more than Tomlin. The Saints hit the draft lottery a couple drafts ago, so they have a ton of cheap, high level talent, a HOF quarterback, a pretty good defense that generates turnovers.

Payton is a better offensive mind than Tomlin, but one side of the ball hasn't won anything for either coach.

This season is going to show us something about Mike Tomlin, and the direction he is taking this team. We'll see how he manages the locker room, the talent he keeps on the roster, and how he integrates the new talent into the schemes. Will there be scheme changes? Will there be a move to more physical play on offense?

We'll see soon enough.

[pczach]

If you think the saints would have lost at home against the panthers, it's just you

But I would have liked to be at 12-4 in the number 2 seed in the worst case or at least to be overtime in the NFC title game.

It was a heartbreaking loss for the saints, but at least they were close, which the steelers were not in the last 8 years.


What if a key player got injured in the Panthers game that really mattered?

You can't just say that you know what would have happened. If Thomas or Kamara tear up a knee in the third quarter against the Panthers because it was close and they needed the game.....your theory wouldn't hold water, would it? They wouldn't have been able to rest as many players or just manage snaps the way they did when they were gifted homefield advantage by the refs against the Steelers.

You just can't make those assumptions.

[polamalubeast]

What if a key player got injured in the Panthers game that really mattered?

You can't just say that you know what would have happened. If Thomas or Kamara tear up a knee in the third quarter against the Panthers because it was close and they needed the game.....your theory wouldn't hold water, would it? They wouldn't have been able to rest as many players or just manage snaps the way they did when they were gifted homefield advantage by the refs against the Steelers.

You just can't make those assumptions.

Maybe ... I should have said likely.Of course the worst case scenario can always happen, but the chances that the Saints win this game and that Brees, Thomas, Kamara stays healthy would have been good, since they have rarely or never been hurt in their career.It would have been a disaster if it would happen to the Saints


This season is going to show us something about Mike Tomlin, and the direction he is taking this team. We'll see how he manages the locker room, the talent he keeps on the roster, and how he integrates the new talent into the schemes. Will there be scheme changes? Will there be a move to more physical play on offense?

100% agree

[munchy]

the guy has done so little with so much...............

[munchy]

So I just did a quick tour of random sites that ranked NFL coaches all time. The Steelers were the only team to consistently get three guys somewhere in the top 20-30 coaches of ALL TIME.

But let's keep talking about how it is time to fire guys.

I find it funny and surprising how this board consistently under-rates players and coaches compared to the wider NFL internet.


do you think the steelers would all of a sudden suck if tomlin was fired?
what about if cowher was fired a few years earlier than when he quit?

[DesertSteel]

This is gonna get ridiculous...


Yeah, heads gonna explode over this news. :chuckle:
Worlds are gonna collide!

- - - Updated - - -



Payton is a better offensive mind than Tomlin, but one side of the ball hasn't won anything for either coach.

Just so I'm not confused, which side of the ball is Tomlin good at?

[Six Rings]

Tomlin is but 3-6 in his last nine playoff games, and could be 2nd or 3rd place in the AFC north this year. By no means should the Steelers give him a new deal. Let this season play out first please.

[Mojouw]

do you think the steelers would all of a sudden suck if tomlin was fired?
what about if cowher was fired a few years earlier than when he quit?

Depends on who was hired. If you fire Tomlin and hire Jeff Fisher or Adam Gase or something, it is gonna go really bad fairly quickly. If you hire the next coaching genius, then I guess it would be fine?

Same with Cowher.

The bar you have to get over to ensure the team would be better than under Tomlin is much higher than people seem to think. Is it impossible? Absolutely not.

- - - Updated - - -


Worlds are gonna collide!

- - - Updated - - -


Just so I'm not confused, which side of the ball is Tomlin good at?

More that both Saints and Steelers had great offenses and suspect defenses. Why does Payton get a pass?

[munchy]

Depends on who was hired. If you fire Tomlin and hire Jeff Fisher or Adam Gase or something, it is gonna go really bad fairly quickly. If you hire the next coaching genius, then I guess it would be fine?

Same with Cowher.

The bar you have to get over to ensure the team would be better than under Tomlin is much higher than people seem to think. Is it impossible? Absolutely not.

- - - Updated - - -



More that both Saints and Steelers had great offenses and suspect defenses. Why does Payton get a pass?

eliminate the records of all those coaches and tell me why you think tomlin is a genius and so much better at coaching than gase and fisher
im not buying that the steelers just happened to find 3 superior coaches while 31 other team could only find 1 total the past 20-30-40 years

[Mojouw]

eliminate the records of all those coaches and tell me why you think tomlin is a genius and so much better at coaching than gase and fisher
im not buying that the steelers just happened to find 3 superior coaches while 31 other team could only find 1 total the past 20-30-40 years

Well if we eliminate the records, I’m a damn good NFL coach. Without the records, what’s the point?

[hawaiiansteeler]

Well if we eliminate the records, I’m a damn good NFL coach. Without the records, what’s the point?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5-iJUuPWis

[Craic]

eliminate the records of all those coaches and tell me why you think tomlin is a genius and so much better at coaching than gase and fisher
im not buying that the steelers just happened to find 3 superior coaches while 31 other team could only find 1 total the past 20-30-40 years

No one is saying Tomlin is a genius. Several are saying he's one of the better coaches in the NFL. Perhaps, a top 10 and perhaps, top 5. Personally, I'd go with top third. But, what every one seems to be missing is that it takes more than being a great coach to be a great coach. Great coaches have failed in several places either before or after their "great coaching" years. To be a great coach, you need a great organization behind you and one that is willing to go out and get the players you want, and sometimes, the ones you don't want a la Cowher and Ben R.

Does that means we don't need a coach with the skills to coach a football team? No, we absolute need that, and a team president who is dedicated to winning the game (Dan Rooney) rather than the top priority being whether the guy will join you and up the fun at the race track (Chief Rooney).

tl;dr I can answer the question of finding superior coaches time after time with two words: Dan Rooney.

[munchy]

No one is saying Tomlin is a genius. Several are saying he's one of the better coaches in the NFL. Perhaps, a top 10 and perhaps, top 5. Personally, I'd go with top third. But, what every one seems to be missing is that it takes more than being a great coach to be a great coach. Great coaches have failed in several places either before or after their "great coaching" years. To be a great coach, you need a great organization behind you and one that is willing to go out and get the players you want, and sometimes, the ones you don't want a la Cowher and Ben R.

Does that means we don't need a coach with the skills to coach a football team? No, we absolute need that, and a team president who is dedicated to winning the game (Dan Rooney) rather than the top priority being whether the guy will join you and up the fun at the race track (Chief Rooney).

tl;dr I can answer the question of finding superior coaches time after time with two words: Dan Rooney.


great post.
i too would go top 3rd.
tomlin fans believe that any coach with a worse record than tomlin, is a worse coach, and couldnt come into this organization and be as successful
the same fans think tomlin could go to any other organization and be just as successful as he was here

fwiw, mojouw said(implied) that tomlin was a genius

[munchy]

Well if we eliminate the records, I’m a damn good NFL coach. Without the records, what’s the point?

i guess my point is that unless you actually have some concrete evidence regarding coaching abilities, one can really only say tomlins record as a HC is better than fishers record as a HC
tomlin .654 and .533 (1 game over .500)
fisher was a HC for 22 years and had a winning percentage off .512 in regular season and .455 playoffs(1 game under .500)
gase is .479
no one could argue that those 2 coaches had anywhere near the talent that tomlin has had
i realize 2 more wins is quite large in a 16 game schedule(tomlin vs fisher) but to say this team would go bad really quick doesnt make sense to me.
i actually think if those 2 coaches switched spots, the records would switch with them also

[Mojouw]

great post.
i too would go top 3rd.
tomlin fans believe that any coach with a worse record than tomlin, is a worse coach, and couldnt come into this organization and be as successful
the same fans think tomlin could go to any other organization and be just as successful as he was here

fwiw, mojouw said(implied) that tomlin was a genius


i guess my point is that unless you actually have some concrete evidence regarding coaching abilities, one can really only say tomlins record as a HC is better than fishers record as a HC
tomlin .654 and .533 (1 game over .500)
fisher was a HC for 22 years and had a winning percentage off .512 in regular season and .455 playoffs(1 game under .500)
gase is .479
no one could argue that those 2 coaches had anywhere near the talent that tomlin has had
i realize 2 more wins is quite large in a 16 game schedule(tomlin vs fisher) but to say this team would go bad really quick doesnt make sense to me.
i actually think if those 2 coaches switched spots, the records would switch with them also

I did? When did that happen? I mean I know I post here late at night and whatnot, but I feel like I would remember if I called Tomlin a genius...

..I did post a short summary of rankings provided and generated by OTHERS that claim to follow the NFL for pay.

You think higher of Gase and Fisher than I do.

[polamalubeast]

When will the Steelers sign Mike Tomlin to a contract extension?

The question is not if the Steelers will sign coach Mike Tomlin to a contract extension, who has two more years left on his existing deal.

The bigger question is when.

And for how much?

Traditionally, the Steelers always have extended Tomlin’s contract at this point — with two years remaining on the deal. They haven’t done so yet, leading some to wonder if it’s because of the disappointing way the past two seasons have ended since his previous extension.

But it must be noted that the Steelers did not announce Tomlin’s two-year extension in 2017 until August, so there still is plenty of time to do so. If they choose to do so this season.

It would not be unreasonable or even unthinkable for team owner/​president Art Rooney II to wait another year to extend Tomlin, sending a message to all that his coach, like his players, is to be held accountable for the manner in which the past two seasons have ended: Prematurely and abruptly.

In Dallas, Cowboys owner Jerry Jones has been non-committal about an extension for coach Jason Garrett, who is in the final year of his deal. The Cowboys won seven of their final nine games in 2018 and made the postseason for the third time in five years, but Jones said in a radio interview in January, “It’s not enough, not enough.”

Barring a change of mind, it appears Jones is going to make Garrett perform for his future with the Cowboys in 2019, a show-me season, if you will. He did that once before with Garrett, after the Cowboys finished 8-8 in 2013. Garrett responded by going 12-4 and leading the Cowboys to the NFC East Division crown in 2014.

Unlike Garrett, Tomlin is not in the final year of his contract. He is good through the 2020 season. But where is the harm in giving him a show-me season, too?

After “cleansing” the locker room of Antonio Brown and Le’Veon Bell — Tomlin’s word — what better way to incentivize a head coach than to show that he can move on without players of that caliber?


read more

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2019/05/12/Steelers-Mike-Tomlin-NFL-contract-Art-Rooney/stories/201905120176

[munchy]

Depends on who was hired. If you fire Tomlin and hire Jeff Fisher or Adam Gase or something, it is gonna go really bad fairly quickly. If you hire the next coaching genius, then I guess it would be fine?

Same with Cowher.

The bar you have to get over to ensure the team would be better than under Tomlin is much higher than people seem to think. Is it impossible? Absolutely not.

- - - Updated - - -



More that both Saints and Steelers had great offenses and suspect defenses. Why does Payton get a pass?


seeing that you are defending tomlin in this post and then say, 'if you hire the next coaching genius', implies that you feel the steeleres have hired a genius in the past .

- - - Updated - - -


I did? When did that happen? I mean I know I post here late at night and whatnot, but I feel like I would remember if I called Tomlin a genius...

..I did post a short summary of rankings provided and generated by OTHERS that claim to follow the NFL for pay.

You think higher of Gase and Fisher than I do.

maybe. i just think less of tomlin than you do

[Mojouw]

seeing that you are defending tomlin in this post and then say, 'if you hire the next coaching genius', implies that you feel the steeleres have hired a genius in the past .

- - - Updated - - -



maybe. i just think less of tomlin than you do

Ok. You got me. Clearly I'm in the tank for Tomlin. Only reasonable interpretation of my comments. No chance that I wrote a short sentence that meant there was a spectrum of potential coaching hires somewhere along this kind of scale:

COACHING GENIUS Tier - TOMLIN and Similar Tier - Jeff Fisher/Rich Kotite/Adam Gase Division

Congratulations, you have won another pedantic argument on the internet with a virtual stranger. You better go celebrate. I'm going to go engage in some self-flagellation and serious soul searching.

[munchy]

Ok. You got me. Clearly I'm in the tank for Tomlin. Only reasonable interpretation of my comments. No chance that I wrote a short sentence that meant there was a spectrum of potential coaching hires somewhere along this kind of scale:

COACHING GENIUS Tier - TOMLIN and Similar Tier - Jeff Fisher/Rich Kotite/Adam Gase Division

Congratulations, you have won another pedantic argument on the internet with a virtual stranger. You better go celebrate. I'm going to go engage in some self-flagellation and serious soul searching.


dude, why do you get so upset?
im not even trying to be a dick.
no win/lose here.
no contest
no need for congratulations
no celebrating
it was an honest question based on a statement you made while referring to tomlin
why the back tracking and aggressive response?
how else was your 'next genius' comment supposed to be interpreted?

[hawaiiansteeler]

im not even trying to be a dick.


we realize it just comes natural to you...

[munchy]

we realize it just comes natural to you...


lol.........did i accidentally sleep with your wife?
you sure are hung up on me

[hawaiiansteeler]

lol.........did i accidentally sleep with your wife?
you sure are hung up on me

nah, just keep posting. I'm sure someday you’ll say something intelligent.

[polamalubeast]

I am not the biggest fan of Tomlin right now,but he is much better that Fisher,Gase or etc...

[munchy]

nah, just keep posting. I'm sure someday you’ll say something intelligent.

lol.........you burned me:Cry:

- - - Updated - - -


I am not the biggest fan of Tomlin right now,but he is much better that Fisher,Gase or etc...

you mean he has a better record or he has coaching abilities that are much better than all the others?

[polamalubeast]

lol.........you burned me:Cry:

- - - Updated - - -



you mean he has a better record or he has coaching abilities that are much better than all the others?


Fisher handcuffed way too much the passing game and in the case of Gase, too much dink and dunk in his offense(Bell will have 100 or more catches if he is healthy in 2019,which is not a good thing when your QB has too many failed completion).Also, under Gase the Dolphins were very little competitive each time Miami lost a game.

I would hate to have his two coach!

[polamalubeast]

Mike Tomlin has two years left on his contract, and that is the point when the Steelers have traditionally given their head coach a contract extension.

This offseason, though, the Steelers need to deviate from their normal plan.

Tomlin is one of the better coaches in the NFL, but his reputation is largely built on the work he did in his first four seasons, when he made two trips to the Super Bowl.

Since that Super Bowl loss to Green Bay after the 2010 season, however, Tomlin has won three playoff games. He has had more teams underachieve than overachieve. He is coming off a season in which the Steelers missed the playoffs. The year before that, they gave up 45 points and lost at home to a Blake Bortles-led Jacksonville team.

Tomlin needs to prove he can still lead the Steelers to great things before Art Rooney II and company reward him with a raise and an extension.

Despite the fact the Steelers have been loaded on the offensive side of the ball, it hasn’t been a great eight-year run for Tomlin. He had the best quarterback/receiver/running back combination in the game for five seasons, and he has had a Hall of Fame quarterback to build around his entire career.

Apologists say the defense has been the problem, but Tomlin’s background is in defense. If the defense isn’t fixed and hasn’t been right for years, I’m not sure how you place blame on anyone but Tomlin.

The other item apologists always bring up in Tomlin’s defense is that the Steelers have not drafted for defense well. If you truly believe Kevin Colbert picks players absent of Tomlin’s input, please stop by the Post-Gazette offices because I have the deed to the Fort Pitt Bridge to sell you. Tomlin has a certain kind of defensive player he likes, and Colbert goes out and gets those kinds of players.

Defensive woes and poor personnel decisions are not excuses for Tomlin. And neither are injuries because the last few Super Bowl champions — particularly the Eagles in 2018 and the Patriots in 2017 — have proven you can win a Super Bowl despite major injuries to key players.

read more

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/paul-zeise/2019/05/13/mike-tomlin-contract-extension-steelers-devin-bush-rookie/stories/201905130089

[steelreserve]

Mike Tomlin has two years left on his contract, and that is the point when the Steelers have traditionally given their head coach a contract extension.

This offseason, though, the Steelers need to deviate from their normal plan.

Tomlin is one of the better coaches in the NFL, but his reputation is largely built on the work he did in his first four seasons, when he made two trips to the Super Bowl.

Since that Super Bowl loss to Green Bay after the 2010 season, however, Tomlin has won three playoff games. He has had more teams underachieve than overachieve. He is coming off a season in which the Steelers missed the playoffs. The year before that, they gave up 45 points and lost at home to a Blake Bortles-led Jacksonville team.

Tomlin needs to prove he can still lead the Steelers to great things before Art Rooney II and company reward him with a raise and an extension.

Despite the fact the Steelers have been loaded on the offensive side of the ball, it hasn’t been a great eight-year run for Tomlin. He had the best quarterback/receiver/running back combination in the game for five seasons, and he has had a Hall of Fame quarterback to build around his entire career.

Apologists say the defense has been the problem, but Tomlin’s background is in defense. If the defense isn’t fixed and hasn’t been right for years, I’m not sure how you place blame on anyone but Tomlin.

The other item apologists always bring up in Tomlin’s defense is that the Steelers have not drafted for defense well. If you truly believe Kevin Colbert picks players absent of Tomlin’s input, please stop by the Post-Gazette offices because I have the deed to the Fort Pitt Bridge to sell you. Tomlin has a certain kind of defensive player he likes, and Colbert goes out and gets those kinds of players.

Defensive woes and poor personnel decisions are not excuses for Tomlin. And neither are injuries because the last few Super Bowl champions — particularly the Eagles in 2018 and the Patriots in 2017 — have proven you can win a Super Bowl despite major injuries to key players.

read more

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/paul-zeise/2019/05/13/mike-tomlin-contract-extension-steelers-devin-bush-rookie/stories/201905130089

Give this guy a fuckin' medal. He gets it.

Three playoff wins in the past nine years. That's garbage by any standard, let alone for a team with a top-5 QB and overflowing with talent on offense.

I mean, shit, 1 playoff win every 3 years is even slightly less than you'd expect on average just by being in the league.

No, really - 11 playoff wins available per year, to go around between 32 teams ... that comes out to about 1.03 per 3 years, and that includes all the garbage-ass no-talent joke franchises. THAT'S the best he can do, after coming in with a running start, and for all but a couple seasons, having a team that's supposed to be talented enough to be a contender "on paper" - that's it? And people still say "stay the course, it could be worse," and THAT is their big argument that's supposed to get me fired up to get behind him? What horseshit, gimme a break.

[HollywoodSteel]

dude, why do you get so upset?
im not even trying to be a dick.
no win/lose here.
no contest
no need for congratulations
no celebrating
it was an honest question based on a statement you made while referring to tomlin
why the back tracking and aggressive response?
how else was your 'next genius' comment supposed to be interpreted?

I don’t think you’re trying to be a dick. But I can see how it might seem that you are intentionally misrepresenting the meaning of a comment, and when you do that to someone it’s pretty common for that person to respond with a little less civility than before.

I think it’s pretty obvious - to me anyway- that he meant: “if you hire the next NFL coaching genius...” That does not imply in any way that Tomlin himself is in that set of coaching geniuses, only that such a set exists.

In my experience Mojouw has always contributed well informed opinions that he does a very good job of backing up. He doesn’t engage in insults or ad hominem attacks on commenters who simply disagree with him.

If you say that you honestly misinterpreted his meaning and weren’t trying to put words in his mouth to then argue against, I’ll totally give you the benefit of the doubt on that. I’m guessing Mojouw will too. I’m just saying, I can see how you might have gotten under his skin, perhaps with nothing but the best of intentions.

[polamalubeast]

Give this guy a fuckin' medal. He gets it.

Three playoff wins in the past nine years. That's garbage by any standard, let alone for a team with a top-5 QB and overflowing with talent on offense.

I mean, shit, 1 playoff win every 3 years is even slightly less than you'd expect on average just by being in the league.

No, really - 11 playoff wins available per year, to go around between 32 teams ... that comes out to about 1.03 per 3 years, and that includes all the garbage-ass no-talent joke franchises. THAT'S the best he can do, after coming in with a running start, and for all but a couple seasons, having a team that's supposed to be talented enough to be a contender "on paper" - that's it? And people still say "stay the course, it could be worse," and THAT is their big argument that's supposed to get me fired up to get behind him? What horseshit, gimme a break.

Mike Tomlin is like Alex Smith

Good enough as coach to win several games in the regular season, especially with the talent that has in the team, but not good enough for the team to take the next step in the playoffs or win something big, at least in the last couple years.

We could have worse, but we could have better.

[steelreserve]

Mike Tomlin is like Alex Smith

Good enough as coach to win several games in the regular season, especially with the talent that has in the team, but not good enough for the team to take the next step in the playoffs or win something big, at least in the last couple years.

We could have worse, but we could have better.

Andy Dalton or Tony Romo were who I compared him to earlier. A more accurate comparison in my mind because they would continually tease you that they MIGHT just have it in them to get over the top, so you go all-in on them, and they have bulletproof job security and get a ton of patience, and you get strung along for 7 or 8 years that way.

THAT'S Tomlin. Alex Smith, it was always obvious he's barely acceptable, and everyone knows it, and he's just the guy you bring in as a placeholder to be "good enough" for a couple seasons until you find someone better. There are no illusions with an Alex Smith. We've definitely gotten much deeper into the "perpetual promising underachievement" thing here.

But no need to rush to a hasty decision, do you want to be the Browns?!?! This is finally gonna be his year, I just know it!

[polamalubeast]

Andy Dalton or Tony Romo were who I compared him to earlier. A more accurate comparison in my mind because they would continually tease you that they MIGHT just have it in them to get over the top, so you go all-in on them, and they have bulletproof job security and get a ton of patience, and you get strung along for 7 or 8 years that way.

THAT'S Tomlin. Alex Smith, it was always obvious he's barely acceptable, and everyone knows it, and he's just the guy you bring in as a placeholder to be "good enough" for a couple seasons until you find someone better. There are no illusions with an Alex Smith. We've definitely gotten much deeper into the "perpetual promising underachievement" thing here.

But no need to rush to a hasty decision, do you want to be the Browns?!?! This is finally gonna be his year, I just know it!

I think Romo would have been able to win a super bowl(or at least contend) with a better head coach and without an owner who is the GM.

With QBs like Dalton or Smith, everything must be perfect(like running game,defense,etc) around them to have a chance to contend.

[Edman]

Unless the otherwise happens, I predict that Tomlin is in the crossfire this season. Not in the getting fired aspect, but rather the "convenient contract expiration" aspect. He won't be renewed and the Steelers will move on from him.

After his organization become a shitshow and getting egg on his face with the AB and Bell saga, I think Art II won't be so quick to pull the trigger on Tomlin. Another disappointing season, or worse, a losing season with Ben retirement looming ever closer will pretty much draw the line on the Tomlin Era. The dude has blown away any job security he may have had. There is no head coach in the NFL you can honestly say has wasted talent as much as Tomlin has, except arguably Bill O'Brien in Houston.

[polamalubeast]

I would be very surprised if Tomlin does not have an extension contract before the season.

[polamalubeast]

another one....



Chris Mueller: Rooney should wait on Tomlin extension

If you believe those who are paid to be in the know, Mike Tomlin will get a contract extension from the Steelers sometime later this summer, either late July or early August.

As is tradition.

Tomlin’s deal runs through 2020, and typically the team extends coaches with two years left on their contract.

But 2018 was an atypical season for Tomlin and for the franchise, so now would be a good time for Art Rooney II to take a detour from the standard practices manual and send his coach a message.

Failure to win a championship is one thing, failure to maintain a modicum of control over your team is another.

Rooney wouldn’t be sending a harsh message, but a clear one: Prove last year was a fluke before we sign you up for more time and a big payday. Prove that you are worth more than John Harbaugh.

Last year was a tough one for those of us still showing up to Mike Tomlin Apologist Society meetings. The coach gave his staunchest supporters little reason to have his back.

He was as bad as ever with coach’s challenges, going 0-for-the-season yet again. Tomlin hasn’t won one since January 8, 2017.

There were the usual questions about his clock management and his situational expertise. None of these are new complaints about the head coach, but when he’s winning, they are delivered in a whisper rather than a shout.

More than anything, though, Tomlin’s 2018 was indefensible because of the way Antonio Brown quit on the team. Believe what you wish about the degree to which Brown’s spectacular, theatrical unhappiness during his final weeks as a Steeler was merely part of a gambit to secure a trade and a new contract. That subject is up for debate.

What isn’t up for debate is that Tomlin’s strategy for how to handle his most volatile, talented player blew up in his face. He gave Brown an inch and the receiver took several miles.

read more

https://www.timesonline.com/sports/20190514/chris-mueller-rooney-should-wait-on-tomlin-extension?rssfeed=true

[Mojouw]

I’m kinda over the whole “Tomlin lost control of AB” narrative. It’s just goofy to me that anything beside a big ass contract extension was ever gonna shut that dude up.

I predict that 2-3 years from now people will be talking about how surprising it is that Tomlin and the Steelers got as much from AB as they did.

Look at Bell. He hasn’t even played a down for the Jets and has already decided he doesn’t need to show up. Notice how the entire organization didn’t do anything besides placate him and downplay it in the media?

[hawaiiansteeler]

Look at Bell. He hasn’t even played a down for the Jets and has already decided he doesn’t need to show up. Notice how the entire organization didn’t do anything besides placate him and downplay it in the media?

nothing the Jets could do, they were voluntary practices.

[pczach]

I’m kinda over the whole “Tomlin lost control of AB” narrative. It’s just goofy to me that anything beside a big ass contract extension was ever gonna shut that dude up.

I predict that 2-3 years from now people will be talking about how surprising it is that Tomlin and the Steelers got as much from AB as they did.

Look at Bell. He hasn’t even played a down for the Jets and has already decided he doesn’t need to show up. Notice how the entire organization didn’t do anything besides placate him and downplay it in the media?



It's almost as if assholes are gonna do what assholes are gonna do.

[Mojouw]

It's almost as if assholes are gonna do what assholes are gonna do.

Pretty much where I’m at with it.

[st33lersguy]

Tomlin hasn't earned an extension, and giving him an extension coming off last year's epic disaster is a piss poor idea.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

nothing the Jets could do, they were voluntary practices.

Exactly. Cant enforce that somebody come to voluntary workouts. No need to hype things up that a guy didn't attend voluntary workouts.

When is Tomlin getting that new deal. I think he could use a new pair of shades. :cool:

[polamalubeast]

At least,Colbert and Tomlin are for the most part been on the same page,even if this is not always the case...But for the New York Jets...

1128697725447483392

[hawaiiansteeler]

At least,Colbert and Tomlin are for the most part been on the same page,even if this is not always the case...But for the New York Jets...

1128697725447483392

the Jets just fired G.M. Mike Maccagnan...

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/05/15/report-jets-fired-g-m-mike-maccagnan/

[Mojouw]

nothing the Jets could do, they were voluntary practices.

Well to hear most tell it around these parts; everyone from the owner on down to the HC should have been on the phone with Bell and his agent demanding attendance and enforcing discipline. Talking on the TV about not being a good teammate and everyone needing to work hard, etc etc etc

[hawaiiansteeler]

Well to hear most tell it around these parts; everyone from the owner on down to the HC should have been on the phone with Bell and his agent demanding attendance and enforcing discipline. Talking on the TV about not being a good teammate and everyone needing to work hard, etc etc etc

Jaguars' Tom Coughlin may have violated NFL offseason rules with one simple statement

The NFLPA isn't happy with a comment made by the Jaguars' executive vice president

John Breech
Apr 18, 2019

When the Jacksonville Jaguars kicked off their offseason workout program on Monday, there were two very noticeable absences in the form of Jalen Ramsey and Telvin Smith.

When it comes to offseason workouts, players are technically allowed to stay at home, and that's because the workouts are voluntary. Apparently, someone forgot to relay that fact to Jaguars executive vice president Tom Coughlin, because he seemed pretty upset on Thursday when he was asked about Ramsey and Smith being no-shows.

"We're close to 100 percent attendance -- and quite frankly all of our players should be here," Coughlin said, via the team's official website.

Although Coughlin's one sentence answer doesn't seem like much, he might have actually violated NFL rules with his statement. Under the collective bargaining agreement, club officials are not allowed to make players feel like they have to attend any specific workout, which is basically what Coughlin might have done.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/jaguars-tom-coughlin-may-have-violated-nfl-offseason-rules-with-one-simple-statement/

[Mojouw]

Jaguars' Tom Coughlin may have violated NFL offseason rules with one simple statement

The NFLPA isn't happy with a comment made by the Jaguars' executive vice president

John Breech
Apr 18, 2019

When the Jacksonville Jaguars kicked off their offseason workout program on Monday, there were two very noticeable absences in the form of Jalen Ramsey and Telvin Smith.

When it comes to offseason workouts, players are technically allowed to stay at home, and that's because the workouts are voluntary. Apparently, someone forgot to relay that fact to Jaguars executive vice president Tom Coughlin, because he seemed pretty upset on Thursday when he was asked about Ramsey and Smith being no-shows.

"We're close to 100 percent attendance -- and quite frankly all of our players should be here," Coughlin said, via the team's official website.

Although Coughlin's one sentence answer doesn't seem like much, he might have actually violated NFL rules with his statement. Under the collective bargaining agreement, club officials are not allowed to make players feel like they have to attend any specific workout, which is basically what Coughlin might have done.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/jaguars-tom-coughlin-may-have-violated-nfl-offseason-rules-with-one-simple-statement/

i agree with this and your original posting. I haven't been clear. But what I am trying to express is that while the JETS have done nothing wrong -- there are many many in Steelers internet fandom who expressed loudly that in similar situations, this is where a strong team leadership cracks the whip. Myself and others have countered that for a variety of reasons (including league rules) it really isn't ideal or even possible.

I was just trying to be a smart-ass. Clearly, didn't pull it off!

[hawaiiansteeler]

there are many many in Steelers internet fandom who expressed loudly that in similar situations, this is where a strong team leadership cracks the whip.

I try not to take seriously what Steelers "fans" like munchy have to say, they are always going to focus on the negatives for whatever reason.

[steelreserve]

Well to hear most tell it around these parts; everyone from the owner on down to the HC should have been on the phone with Bell and his agent demanding attendance and enforcing discipline. Talking on the TV about not being a good teammate and everyone needing to work hard, etc etc etc

I mean, there are two parts to it - the player's behavior, which you have limited control over ... and the transaction / "business" handling of it. Which I guess there was no real solution to in Bell's case, but which we completely blew it in Brown's case; and I mean blew it like falling face-first in dogshit. Sometimes the way you handle that part of it is the only way that does anything to affect the shitty behavior. Sometimes it doesn't.

In other words, Bell simply malfunctioned and I don't know if there's anything that could be done, so you can kind of forgive that. Not Brown though; that was a total shitfuck from the top (ownership) on down, with many, many chances to come out better off than we did.

[Mojouw]

I mean, there are two parts to it - the player's behavior, which you have limited control over ... and the transaction / "business" handling of it. Which I guess there was no real solution to in Bell's case, but which we completely blew it in Brown's case; and I mean blew it like falling face-first in dogshit. Sometimes the way you handle that part of it is the only way that does anything to affect the shitty behavior. Sometimes it doesn't.

In other words, Bell simply malfunctioned and I don't know if there's anything that could be done, so you can kind of forgive that. Not Brown though; that was a total shitfuck from the top (ownership) on down, with many, many chances to come out better off than we did.

And that is the hypothesis that I am rejecting. These dudes are not going to toe the line no matter if the leash is an inch long or 10 miles. It was only ever about $$$ and not discipline or locker-room whatever the hell.

The AB saga is like a crappy choose your own adventure book. Same starting point and no matter what choices you make, you end up dead and having a blonde mustachioed Mr. Big Chest laughing over your corpse. It is just a question of how many seasons before you get there.

[Born2Steel]

Tomlin has nothing to do with the AB situation the way I see it. AB wanted out so AB made his way out. AB is the 30yr old vet working on his legacy. JuJu is the new young gun taking away targets, fan's admiration and praise, and the team(AB's team) voted JuJu over AB for MVP. AB no longer cares about helping win games, AB wants his targets, accolades, stats, and to cement his legacy. That is the part of AB's career arc he is currently in. NOTHING the FO or Tomlin would have done could have fixed this. AB saw the writting on the wall, he was on the way down and JuJu and possibly Washington/Switzer are on the way up. It happens to every great player eventually. AB just decided to get ahead of it and buy himself a couple more seasons as 'The Man'. Pad those career stats a little more. Who else are they throwing to with the Raiders?

Anyway, to put that whole fiasco on the FO and Tomlin takes away the blame that should fall directly on AB alone. How do you fix it when AB won't even talk to you? If you believe Ryan Clark, AB was this way from day1 and it was only a matter of time before it came to this anyway.

With all this negativity and scandal being heaped on the Steelers Tomlin would become a GREAT coach if somehow the Steelers won the AFC North this season despite the "sh!tf*#k" of this offseason.

[polamalubeast]

Tomlin has nothing to do with the AB situation the way I see it. AB wanted out so AB made his way out. AB is the 30yr old vet working on his legacy. JuJu is the new young gun taking away targets, fan's admiration and praise, and the team(AB's team) voted JuJu over AB for MVP. AB no longer cares about helping win games, AB wants his targets, accolades, stats, and to cement his legacy. That is the part of AB's career arc he is currently in. NOTHING the FO or Tomlin would have done could have fixed this. AB saw the writting on the wall, he was on the way down and JuJu and possibly Washington/Switzer are on the way up. It happens to every great player eventually. AB just decided to get ahead of it and buy himself a couple more seasons as 'The Man'. Pad those career stats a little more. Who else are they throwing to with the Raiders?

Anyway, to put that whole fiasco on the FO and Tomlin takes away the blame that should fall directly on AB alone. How do you fix it when AB won't even talk to you? If you believe Ryan Clark, AB was this way from day1 and it was only a matter of time before it came to this anyway.

With all this negativity and scandal being heaped on the Steelers Tomlin would become a GREAT coach if somehow the Steelers won the AFC North this season despite the "sh!tf*#k" of this offseason.

The problem is that Tomlin has very little punished Brown after his facebook live after our playoff win against the Chiefs in 2016.

Also for the bold, maybe, but at the same time the steelers were very close to miss the playoffs in 2015 and 2016, so it was a matter of time before we missed them

if the steelers would keep playing with the fire ... even our regular season in 2017, the steelers were 8-2 in the one-game score, so it was also a matter of time before the steelers lost several close games and with all the drama that steelers have had in the last few years, it was also a matter of time before the team implode

[Born2Steel]

The problem is that Tomlin has very little punished Brown after his facebook live after our playoff win against the Chiefs in 2016.

Also for the bold, maybe, but at the same time the steelers were very close to miss the playoffs in 2015 and 2016, so it was a matter of time before we missed them

if the steelers would keep playing with the fire ... even our regular season in 2017, the steelers were 8-2 in the one-game score, so it was also a matter of time before the steelers lost several close games and with all the drama that steelers have had in the last few years, it was also a matter of time before the team implode

Correct. So if Tomlin somehow rights the ship and wins the division, he has to be a GREAT coach and deserves his extension.

[polamalubeast]

Correct. So if Tomlin somehow rights the ship and wins the division, he has to be a GREAT coach and deserves his extension.

Maybe but Tomlin needs to prove he deserves an extension.

[Born2Steel]

Maybe but Tomlin needs to prove he deserves an extension.

Starting to get dizzy from going in this circle.

[munchy]

Tomlin has nothing to do with the AB situation the way I see it. AB wanted out so AB made his way out. AB is the 30yr old vet working on his legacy. JuJu is the new young gun taking away targets, fan's admiration and praise, and the team(AB's team) voted JuJu over AB for MVP. AB no longer cares about helping win games, AB wants his targets, accolades, stats, and to cement his legacy. That is the part of AB's career arc he is currently in. NOTHING the FO or Tomlin would have done could have fixed this. AB saw the writting on the wall, he was on the way down and JuJu and possibly Washington/Switzer are on the way up. It happens to every great player eventually. AB just decided to get ahead of it and buy himself a couple more seasons as 'The Man'. Pad those career stats a little more. Who else are they throwing to with the Raiders?

Anyway, to put that whole fiasco on the FO and Tomlin takes away the blame that should fall directly on AB alone. How do you fix it when AB won't even talk to you? If you believe Ryan Clark, AB was this way from day1 and it was only a matter of time before it came to this anyway.

With all this negativity and scandal being heaped on the Steelers Tomlin would become a GREAT coach if somehow the Steelers won the AFC North this season despite the "sh!tf*#k" of this offseason.

idk, when tomlin lets AB stay off grounds at training camp, ignored multiple team infractions and went on record saying he'll put up with it until he doesnt produce leads me to believe tomlin was a major part of the problem.........
winning the afc north filled with bad to average teams isnt much of an accomplishment imo

[pczach]

idk, when tomlin lets AB stay off grounds at training camp, ignored multiple team infractions and went on record saying he'll put up with it until he doesnt produce leads me to believe tomlin was a major part of the problem.........
winning the afc north filled with bad to average teams isnt much of an accomplishment imo


I don't think Tomlin should be exonerated of making any mistakes. I think he should have kept a firmer hand on AB. The thing is that I still don't believe that it would have stopped Antonio Brown from detonating with his ever-expanding ego and possible mental issues spiraling out of control. At the very least, he shouldn't have more blame put on his head than Brown. That just doesn't make any sense to me. AB used every disruptive force available to him to cause as much damage to the team as possible. That's a personal decision....not a coach's decision.

[Mojouw]

I don't think Tomlin should be exonerated of making any mistakes. I think he should have kept a firmer hand on AB. The thing is that I still don't believe that it would have stopped Antonio Brown from detonating with his ever-expanding ego and possible mental issues spiraling out of control. At the very least, he shouldn't have more blame put on his head than Brown. That just doesn't make any sense to me. AB used every disruptive force available to him to cause as much damage to the team as possible. That's a personal decision....not a coach's decision.

People wired like AB do not respond to discipline. I truly believe that the granting of exceptions and over-looking infractions is what kept exactly what has happened over the last 8 months from happening earlier.

[steelreserve]

I don't think Tomlin should be exonerated of making any mistakes. I think he should have kept a firmer hand on AB. The thing is that I still don't believe that it would have stopped Antonio Brown from detonating with his ever-expanding ego and possible mental issues spiraling out of control. At the very least, he shouldn't have more blame put on his head than Brown. That just doesn't make any sense to me. AB used every disruptive force available to him to cause as much damage to the team as possible. That's a personal decision....not a coach's decision.

Colbert and/or Rooney are the goats in the AB fiasco. Whether or not he ever played another snap for the Steelers, from a business / management / value standpoint, the handling of that situation was the most shitheaded, bottom-of-the-barrel thing I have ever seen. Maybe Tomlin gets 1% of the blame if he was involved in the transactional part - but it is pretty clear that was headed for a train wreck no matter what the coach did. Shame we had to make it even worse.

[pczach]

Colbert and/or Rooney are the goats in the AB fiasco. Whether or not he ever played another snap for the Steelers, from a business / management / value standpoint, the handling of that situation was the most shitheaded, bottom-of-the-barrel thing I have ever seen. Maybe Tomlin gets 1% of the blame if he was involved in the transactional part - but it is pretty clear that was headed for a train wreck no matter what the coach did. Shame we had to make it even worse.


I was with you while it was happening. I thought they should have gotten more for AB.

The problem is, AB kept lowering his own value with his mouth and with his actions. He talked the Bills out of trading for him. Also, looking back at how disruptive he really was, maybe it was the best thing to just get rid of him. I was hoping they would have just kept him and forced him to decide to sit home and lose his salary or show up and play. I guess they didn't want another Bell situation and a shitload of money not being used on the field when it should be helping the team.

The situation was just a complete turd from the word go.

- - - Updated - - -


People wired like AB do not respond to discipline. I truly believe that the granting of exceptions and over-looking infractions is what kept exactly what has happened over the last 8 months from happening earlier.


I agree. He was a ticking time bomb. I believe he was going to create whatever made him feel "disrespected". AB was going to make this happen no matter what.

He still is a ticking time bomb IMO, but now he's the Raiders' problem.

[steelreserve]

I was with you while it was happening. I thought they should have gotten more for AB.

The problem is, AB kept lowering his own value with his mouth and with his actions. He talked the Bills out of trading for him. Also, looking back at how disruptive he really was, maybe it was the best thing to just get rid of him. I was hoping they would have just kept him and forced him to decide to sit home and lose his salary or show up and play. I guess they didn't want another Bell situation and a shitload of money not being used on the field when it should be helping the team.

The situation was just a complete turd from the word go.


All they needed to get a 10x better outcome on the business side was a set of balls. AB would either be in Buffalo or the Steelers' inactive list right now if they handled it the right way, which was "You sabotaged the Buffalo trade? Ok, we're done looking for trades then - your move, rocket scientist." No way we should've walked away from that with less than a first-round pick, especially since our eventual trade partner had THREE OF THEM.

[polamalubeast]

All they needed to get a 10x better outcome on the business side was a set of balls. AB would either be in Buffalo or the Steelers' inactive list right now if they handled it the right way, which was "You sabotaged the Buffalo trade? Ok, we're done looking for trades then - your move, rocket scientist." No way we should've walked away from that with less than a first-round pick, especially since our eventual trade partner had THREE OF THEM.

The value of AB was at its lowest ..... We can blame the steelers for waiting too long to trade Brown .... if they would traded Brown after the 2016 season, the steelers would have had more, but the drama around from AB was so ridiculous in this off season that his value was at its lowest and Colbert could do nothing about it.

It was the same for Santonio Holmes but for different reasons, but it's a thing of the past, we have to look forward.

[Six Rings]

Correct. So if Tomlin somehow rights the ship and wins the division, he has to be a GREAT coach and deserves his extension.



We have the most talent and should win the division. The way I see we underachieve especially in the playoffs.

With AB and Bell gone, the " distractions " should be gone. Tomlin could not handle them. He's too soft of a player's coach, and let the problem grow until it could not be controlled.

[steelreserve]

The value of AB was at its lowest ..... We can blame the steelers for waiting too long to trade Brown .... if they would traded Brown after the 2016 season, the steelers would have had more, but the drama around from AB was so ridiculous in this off season that his value was at its lowest and Colbert could do nothing about it.

It was the same for Santonio Holmes but for different reasons, but it's a thing of the past, we have to look forward.

Right, his value was at his lowest, so it was a dumb time to sell. Even so, we clearly could have gotten much more in return than we did, simply by waiting until we got a better offer, which would take a few weeks max. There was nothing compelling us to jump on whatever lowball offer we got, or for that matter to call other teams making lowball offers ourselves. The market for that caliber of player is clearly a first-round pick MINIMUM, even if he has problems, and that was proven with other big-name trades the last two offseasons. But no, we insisted on having a fire sale.

Normally, you cost your team a first-round draft pick through incompetence, that's some shit that gets you fired right there. Colbert was not, which indicates the decision goes above his head, and there is like one guy in that category. And the higher up the bad decisions are coming from, the worse that is.

[polamalubeast]

Right, his value was at his lowest, so it was a dumb time to sell. Even so, we clearly could have gotten much more in return than we did, simply by waiting until we got a better offer, which would take a few weeks max. There was nothing compelling us to jump on whatever lowball offer we got, or for that matter to call other teams making lowball offers ourselves. The market for that caliber of player is clearly a first-round pick MINIMUM, even if he has problems, and that was proven with other big-name trades the last two offseasons. But no, we insisted on having a fire sale.

Normally, you cost your team a first-round draft pick through incompetence, that's some shit that gets you fired right there. Colbert was not, which indicates the decision goes above his head, and there is like one guy in that category. And the higher up the bad decisions are coming from, the worse that is.

The problem is that by waiting,the steelers would also have paid his signing bonus or signing bonus or something like that, which was at March 17.

The dead cap hit would have been even higher if they would have waited.

[polamalubeast]

Ron Cook: Mike Tomlin and Kevin Colbert should both get extensions soon

The New York Jets pushed me over the top, not that I needed much of a shove. I’m more convinced than ever the Steelers are fortunate to have Kevin Colbert and Mike Tomlin running their football operations. Art Rooney II should give both a contract extension.

Now.

Not at training camp in July, the normal time these moves are made.

On Tuesday, the first day of the Steelers’ Organized Team Activities, which signifies a fresh start and better days ahead.

Colbert and Tomlin aren’t perfect. No one in the NFL is even close other than in New England. Colbert and Tomlin have missed on high draft choices. Artie Burns and Jarvis Jones come to mind. They have missed on free agents. How about Jon Bostic and Morgan Burnett last season and Ladarius Green in 2016? Certainly, Colbert and Tomlin didn’t do their best work the past two seasons. Last season ended with a 2-4 collapse and the Antonio Brown embarrassment. The season before ended with an ugly home playoff loss to Jacksonville when the team was looking ahead to a rematch with the Patriots after a 13-3 regular season. One more thing: I get that the Steelers have won just three playoff games since they went to the Super Bowl and lost to the Green Bay Packers after the 2010 season.

But I believe in consistency and steadiness. I still believe in Colbert and Tomlin. They have kept the Steelers competitive every season. The team will be competitive again this season despite losing Brown, Le’Veon Bell and Ryan Shazier since December 2017. I think it’s going to win the AFC North Division championship, which would be its seventh under Colbert/Tomlin. I’m not buying all the love for the Cleveland Browns.

It’s easy to keep Colbert, whose contract expires after the 2020 NFL draft. He’s 62 and, according to The Athletic’s Ed Bouchette, appears willing to work on a year-to-year basis. His overall body of work has been terrific. The Steelers have won more games than any NFL team except New England since he took over in 2000. He has no ego and always plays nice with his head coach, winning a Super Bowl with Bill Cowher after the 2005 season and another with Tomlin after the 2008 season. That compatibility is important.

Ask the Jets.

read more

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/ron-cook/2019/05/20/mike-tomlin-contract-extension-steelers-kevin-colbert-otas/stories/201905210021

[munchy]

im not sure what the rush is
what is there to gain by extending tomlin now?
what does it hurt to wait until the end of the year?

[Mojouw]

im not sure what the rush is
what is there to gain by extending tomlin now?
what does it hurt to wait until the end of the year?

Coaches in the final year of their contracts are usually viewed as "lame ducks" or "dead man walking" and many feel that players will tune them out because they assume the coach will not be returning. It is also usually argued that a HC w/out an extension will struggle to retain assistant coaches and hamper a team in attracting FA's because everything will be viewed as highly unsettled.

At this point...hard to tell if it really matters one way or the other. Biggest risk, that I see, is that Tomlin doesn't get an extension, team does well, he is a "hot" coach again and decides to tell the Steelers they can take their vote of of "no confidence" and shove it...dunno.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Coaches in the final year of their contracts are usually viewed as "lame ducks" or "dead man walking" and many feel that players will tune them out because they assume the coach will not be returning.

doesn't Tomlin have two years left still?

[Mojouw]

doesn't Tomlin have two years left still?

Yeah. I forgot about that. Some of the same logic still applies. But the original question asked by Munchy and others is also valid.

Honestly, I don't think it really matters all that much. For the sake of appearances just extend Tomlin. This is the year they have almost always done it with HC contracts. If you don't like the results, you can still fire the guy. It isn't like an extension locks the team into any outcome. Heck, they can fire the guy the day after the extension is signed...I think.

[steelreserve]

The problem is that by waiting,the steelers would also have paid his signing bonus or signing bonus or something like that, which was at March 17.

The dead cap hit would have been even higher if they would have waited.

As I said at the time, that didn't matter. It was a roster bonus for some shitty little amount like $2.5 million. It meant absolutely nothing in the overall scheme of the transaction.

If we rushed a fire-sale trade of an All-Pro player over a $2.5M roster bonus, we're even dumber than I thought.

Like - would you pay $2.5M for an extra first-round pick if you were the GM? If not, you should be fired on the spot.

[polamalubeast]

As I said at the time, that didn't matter. It was a roster bonus for some shitty little amount like $2.5 million. It meant absolutely nothing in the overall scheme of the transaction.

If we rushed a fire-sale trade of an All-Pro player over a $2.5M roster bonus, we're even dumber than I thought.

Like - would you pay $2.5M for an extra first-round pick if you were the GM? If not, you should be fired on the spot.

I was also disappointed by the lack of return for AB ... but it was probably the best offer, since Brown also wanted a new contract, that very few little team could offer him ...

If the steelers would have waited, the offer could also be worse and the circus would have been even more crazy.

This is the time to move on for this trade!

[polamalubeast]

1131271613645639680

[teegre]

1131271613645639680

Yet, for as much as Madden has slandered JuJu, JuJu has not once replied derisively.

[hawaiiansteeler]

https://static.clubs.nfl.com/image/private/t_photo_album/f_auto/steelers/u35yyrdpya54qsscmvy5.jpg

[Born2Steel]

Tomlin should get a contract extension. He's the best man for the job. Put him under contract for another 10 years.

[polamalubeast]

For those who think that the steelers were lost a lot of close game last year ... Well it's normal to lose some times when you're the team with the 4th more close game that a team have play of the NFL since 2016.

http://www.footballperspective.com/the-adam-gase-dolphins-and-close-games/

The record of the team in his close games is 19-9-1,4th best record of the nfl and 2nd more win in this situation

My point is that the close games have been really in favor of the steelers in the last 3 years and it is normal to lose some times.

[hawaiiansteeler]

https://static.clubs.nfl.com/image/private/t_photo_album/f_auto/steelers/o7vtjwef2yzupoplcqr3.jpg

[43Hitman]

https://static.clubs.nfl.com/image/private/t_photo_album/f_auto/steelers/o7vtjwef2yzupoplcqr3.jpg

Caption: Do I really have to hear this shit again, oh look, a bird!

[DesertSteel]

https://static.clubs.nfl.com/image/private/t_photo_album/f_auto/steelers/o7vtjwef2yzupoplcqr3.jpg
The coaching staff really needs to go on keto. Ben, on the other hand, looks in shape.

[Shoes]

https://static.clubs.nfl.com/image/private/t_photo_album/f_auto/steelers/o7vtjwef2yzupoplcqr3.jpg


That is exactly what Ben does when Fichtner is talking with him on game day. :chuckle:

[teegre]

The coaching staff really needs to go on keto. Ben, on the other hand, looks in shape.

I am not a fan of the keto movement. A buddy was eating spoonfuls of coconut oil and telling me that it was healthier than the blueberries that I was eating. SMFH

[hawaiiansteeler]

I am not a fan of the keto movement. A buddy was eating spoonfuls of coconut oil and telling me that it was healthier than the blueberries that I was eating. SMFH

I agree, I looked into it and decided I would just continue to exercise and eat sensibly. one thing that has really helped me maintain my weight is not eating anything after 6pm.

[teegre]

not eating anything after 6pm.

That is my Achilles heel.

[Mojouw]

That is my Achilles heel.

Wait. Wait. Hold on. So a plate of nachos at 11:30 in my PJs on the couch is NOT a good idea? Mind blown.

[teegre]

Wait. Wait. Hold on. So a plate of nachos at 11:30 in my PJs on the couch is NOT a good idea? Mind blown.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smO5NBnKVPQ&app=desktop

[Steeler-in-west]

Let’s start by beating the teams we’re supposed to beat. This is still a playoff caliber team. Barring injuries they should at least get to the divisional round.

Then we can talk extension

[hawaiiansteeler]

https://i.imgur.com/cOWxsuq.jpg