Steelers DC Keith Butler Brings Up 3-5-3 Defense In Discussing New Linebackers

[polamalubeast]

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WR vs ILB....I don't think this is a good idea....In fact this is stupid!

[lipps83]

WR vs ILB....I don't think this is a good idea....In fact this is stupid!

Bush was drafted to cover the other teams top receiver.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Bush was drafted to cover the other teams top receiver.

awesome, because other teams' top receivers can't beat inside linebackers 1 on 1 :rolleyes:

[Mojouw]

Properly executed this is likely the alignment of the future across the league. Get as much speed as possible oout there with just enough beef to not get run off the field.

[steelreserve]

He mixed up the last two digits, but I guess at least he's trying?

[Rotorhead]

Yep, and the Pats alreadybexploited that last years playoffs, ran their way to #6

[hawaiiansteeler]

He mixed up the last two digits, but I guess at least he's trying?

this alignment is the best way to stop Tyler Eifert...

[steelreserve]

this alignment is the best way to stop Tyler Eifert...

The best way to stop Tyler Eifert is to wait for him to be put on injured reserve a couple weeks into the season.

[86WARD]

this alignment is the best way to stop Tyler Eifert...

Hit him with a roll of toilet paper. Done.

[Born2Steel]

Awwww maaaaan! Doom and gloom. Coaches know nothing. I could do this better. Apparently a cross-eyed chimp could do this better. They start off the draft with giving away too much for an under-sized over-hyped ILB, then continue to draft PS players that could have been brought in as UDFA. Now they say they want to run prevent defense every snap. WE ARE DOOMED!

[Shoes]

It would be nice to know who is really calling the D-plays. It seems last year ended with bad play calls=butler, Good play calls=Tomlin. Some think Austin will take over at DC but I can't see that happening any time during the season so I guess we continue on with the mystery play calling which I don't think is a good idea. Kinda like too many cooks in the kitchen.

[polamalubeast]

Awwww maaaaan! Doom and gloom. Coaches know nothing. I could do this better. Apparently a cross-eyed chimp could do this better. They start off the draft with giving away too much for an under-sized over-hyped ILB, then continue to draft PS players that could have been brought in as UDFA. Now they say they want to run prevent defense every snap. WE ARE DOOMED!

Yes, I could be better than Butler, if he continues to put a LB on a wide receiver ..

And of course, this is not his only problem.

[steelreserve]

Awwww maaaaan! Doom and gloom. Coaches know nothing. I could do this better. Apparently a cross-eyed chimp could do this better. They start off the draft with giving away too much for an under-sized over-hyped ILB, then continue to draft PS players that could have been brought in as UDFA. Now they say they want to run prevent defense every snap. WE ARE DOOMED!

Fans know nothing, their ideas are always wrong! You're not allowed to have an opinion about football unless you are a current or former NFL coach or GM! The Steelers' front office knows all and every move is the right one! You've never been right when they've been wrong! No reason to talk sports, you always know less than the pros and are just complaining! Why have a message board - move along!

[Born2Steel]

I’m trying to agree with you guys. I guess since I am in the vast minority on here I should probably switch sides. I’m thinking it’s over now. The championship window is closed. The coaches need to be replaced and the roster reworked. I may not even watch this season because I really think it’s going to be that bad. The Steelers fans may very well have to endure one of those 0-16 parades. I just cannot see how this team, FO, and coaching staff can be successful going forward. I had hope before that travesty of a draft. But now the DC comes out and announces our defensive plan for the coming season and it’s the prevent defense? Every team on our schedule now knows how to gameplan us before the season or even TC begins. It’s just so obviously over at this point. I’m either going to have to learn to endure a decade of losing or find another team because this one has been smoked and crushed out under foot.

[polamalubeast]

I’m trying to agree with you guys. I guess since I am in the vast minority on here I should probably switch sides. I’m thinking it’s over now. The championship window is closed. The coaches need to be replaced and the roster reworked. I may not even watch this season because I really think it’s going to be that bad. The Steelers fans may very well have to endure one of those 0-16 parades. I just cannot see how this team, FO, and coaching staff can be successful going forward. I had hope before that travesty of a draft. But now the DC comes out and announces our defensive plan for the coming season and it’s the prevent defense? Every team on our schedule now knows how to gameplan us before the season or even TC begins. It’s just so obviously over at this point. I’m either going to have to learn to endure a decade of losing or find another team because this one has been smoked and crushed out under foot.

Do not go from one extreme to the other!

That's since our playoffs games against the Pats that I say that Butler is not the right man of the job ... You can not trust this defense in big game or in the fourth quarter in the clutch situation.

If you think it's a good idea to put a LB on a WR (especially in crucial 3rd down) as we have seen last year times I do not know what to say

[Born2Steel]

Do not go from one extreme to the other!

That's since our playoffs games against the Pats that I say that Butler is not the right man of the job ... You can not trust this defense in big game or in the fourth quarter in the clutch situation.

If you think it's a good idea to put a LB on a WR (especially in crucial 3rd down) as we have seen last year times I do not know what to say

When have I EVER posted that I think that is a good plan?

A 3-5-3 is a prevent defense. If that is the plan we are doomed. It’s over before it even begins. The draft picks make no sense. Nobody has ever heard of these guys before the draft. Every pick it was “ who in the hell is that?”. Tell me, do you see this team being successful in 2019 with these players, coaches, and defensive scheme? Then why should I?

[polamalubeast]

When have I EVER posted that I think that is a good plan?

A 3-5-3 is a prevent defense. If that is the plan we are doomed. It’s over before it even begins. The draft picks make no sense. Nobody has ever heard of these guys before the draft. Every pick it was “ who in the hell is that?”. Tell me, do you see this team being successful in 2019 with these players, coaches, and defensive scheme? Then why should I?

I never said that the steelers had no chance and I never said that the steelers had a bad draft or something like that .... For most part in this message board,the comments were very positive on this draft,so it's not my fault if you only remember the negative comments.

But yes, the Butler factor can be very hard to overcome sometimes,so you can continue your sarcasm!

[Born2Steel]

I never said that the steelers had no chance and I never said that the steelers had a bad draft or something like that .... For most part in this message board,the comments were very positive on this draft,so it's not my fault if you only remember the negative comments.

But yes, the Butler factor can be very hard to overcome sometimes,so you can continue your sarcasm!

I never said you didnt like the draft. I’m only posting my opinion. Did you like the draft? I think it was terrible. This thread is about the Steelers planning to run a 3-5-3 defense. That is the last straw. Camel’s back is broken. I’m done with thinking these clowns can run a football team. They don’t know how to draft or how to treat star players or run a training camp or the biggest issue, get the right personnel on the field. Too many years of mediocrity for me to continue to be positive about the future of this franchise.

[Shoes]

Yes, I could be better than Butler, if he continues to put a LB on a wide receiver ..

And of course, this is not his only problem..

This is one reason I don't like Butler and Tomlin both calling plays. It's just not a good idea. If you don't have complete trust in your D.C. replace him.

[polamalubeast]

.

This is one reason I don't like Butler and Tomlin both calling plays. It's just not a good idea. If you don't have complete trust in your D.C. replace him.

I agree, but I think Tomlin does not want to take the heat if he's the one who calls the plays but it does not work.

[Shoes]

I agree, but I think Tomlin does not want to take the heat if he's the one who calls the plays but it does not work.

Then make Austin DC & assistant DB coach.

[Mojouw]

Here is what gets lost in all this. Is no one has the patience to ask "Why was a LB isolated in coverage on a WR?" or if they do, the find a Twitter "hawt take" that backs up their already formed opinion. Look, I don't know the answer either but it almost certainly lies amongst the following questions and not "Bulter is a gibbering moron.":

1. Did the Steelers fear the run game too much to take LBs off the field for other DBs - particularly the smaller Hilton and Sutton?
2. Did the lack of viable 3rd safety really bite them here? Dangerfield is good enough in run support but covers about like a LB?
3. If it is some of the first two, then why not Brian Allen in some sort of package role? Like when they used Cortez Allen as TE neutralizer but nothing else?
4. Was there something with the black hole at CB opposite Haden that tied their hands at coverages in other areas? If you have to protect Sensabaugh, does it cascade on down the line as you cover other receiving options? If so, how? And was the solutions developed by the Steelers defensive staff the only options or did the ignore something?
5. How much of it was the Chargers offense dictating terms to the Steelers defense rather than the defense responding? Are the Steelers reads and keys off?
6. Was the defensive roster thin enough at key spots that there simply wasn't another personnel grouping to put out there? If so, what is the plan to fix that?

But these are all "inside baseball" questions and no one really cares when it is far far easier to just be like "Coaches suck. They are dumb." and go on with our lives.

[Shoes]

Here is what gets lost in all this. Is no one has the patience to ask "Why was a LB isolated in coverage on a WR?" or if they do, the find a Twitter "hawt take" that backs up their already formed opinion. Look, I don't know the answer either but it almost certainly lies amongst the following questions and not "Bulter is a gibbering moron.":

1. Did the Steelers fear the run game too much to take LBs off the field for other DBs - particularly the smaller Hilton and Sutton?
2. Did the lack of viable 3rd safety really bite them here? Dangerfield is good enough in run support but covers about like a LB?
3. If it is some of the first two, then why not Brian Allen in some sort of package role? Like when they used Cortez Allen as TE neutralizer but nothing else?
4. Was there something with the black hole at CB opposite Haden that tied their hands at coverages in other areas? If you have to protect Sensabaugh, does it cascade on down the line as you cover other receiving options? If so, how? And was the solutions developed by the Steelers defensive staff the only options or did the ignore something?
5. How much of it was the Chargers offense dictating terms to the Steelers defense rather than the defense responding? Are the Steelers reads and keys off?
6. Was the defensive roster thin enough at key spots that there simply wasn't another personnel grouping to put out there? If so, what is the plan to fix that?

But these are all "inside baseball" questions and no one really cares when it is far far easier to just be like "Coaches suck. They are dumb." and go on with our lives.

But why would you have two coaches calling D plays?

[Mojouw]

But why would you have two coaches calling D plays?

I know this is the hill you want to die on, but I just don't get the big deal? NFL Films demonstrates this has been going on since there were coaches. I am going to wildly speculate that Carrol, Billy B, and insert "defensive minded head coach here" do somewhere between a little and a lot of calling defensive plays. Same for offensive minded head coaches.

I could be way off. And I realize that yourself and others feel this is critical issue. For me, and perhaps only me, it doesn't move the needle at all.

[Born2Steel]

I know this is the hill you want to die on, but I just don't get the big deal? NFL Films demonstrates this has been going on since there were coaches. I am going to wildly speculate that Carrol, Billy B, and insert "defensive minded head coach here" do somewhere between a little and a lot of calling defensive plays. Same for offensive minded head coaches.

I could be way off. And I realize that yourself and others feel this is critical issue. For me, and perhaps only me, it doesn't move the needle at all.

I don’t know Mojo, if HCs start getting involved in game planning and game day decisions, what’s next? Personnel decisions? Being in the draft war room? Coaching??? That’s chaotic thinking.

[steelreserve]

When have I EVER posted that I think that is a good plan?

A 3-5-3 is a prevent defense. If that is the plan we are doomed. It’s over before it even begins. The draft picks make no sense. Nobody has ever heard of these guys before the draft. Every pick it was “ who in the hell is that?”. Tell me, do you see this team being successful in 2019 with these players, coaches, and defensive scheme? Then why should I?

Are you thinking of a 3-3-5? That's a nickel defense. A 3-5-3 would be 5 linebackers and 3 defensive backs. (That would be the stupidest possible alignment if you ask me, basically using an ILB as a DB, what the hell would you have to be smoking.)

I can see a 3-3-5 working all right if the fifth guy in the "5" is a hard-hitting safety with coverage skills (or I guess a "dimebacker" as the hip new phrase goes), but not a third CB who's 5'9" and 180 pounds.

[Shoes]

I know this is the hill you want to die on, but I just don't get the big deal? NFL Films demonstrates this has been going on since there were coaches. I am going to wildly speculate that Carrol, Billy B, and insert "defensive minded head coach here" do somewhere between a little and a lot of calling defensive plays. Same for offensive minded head coaches.

I could be way off. And I realize that yourself and others feel this is critical issue. For me, and perhaps only me, it doesn't move the needle at all.

We'll see and if Butler is fired after this season I guess it will be for no reason.

[Born2Steel]

Are you thinking of a 3-3-5? That's a nickel defense. A 3-5-3 would be 5 linebackers and 3 defensive backs. (That would be the stupidest possible alignment if you ask me, basically using an ILB as a DB, what the hell would you have to be smoking.)

I can see a 3-3-5 working all right if the fifth guy in the "5" is a hard-hitting safety with coverage skills (or I guess a "dimebacker" as the hip new phrase goes), but not a third CB who's 5'9" and 180 pounds.

I would love to run a 3-5-3 unless we had to play teams that use mobile QBs, especially if they played in our division. I could see that scheme working at the college level unless we had to play Navy or GaTech or some other triple option team. A 3-3-5 might work better but that’s not what it say we are doing.

[Mojouw]

We'll see and if Butler is fired after this season I guess it will be for no reason.

Yes, because that is what I said. Clearly I was taking the position that Keith Butler is totally awesome and rainbows of defensive genius shoot out of his ass.

Butler being a good, bad, great, or brain-numbingly terrible defensive coordinator is not necessarily linked to the number of plays that Mike Tomlin does or does not call.

Capers and Lebeau were pretty good D coordinators. Bill Cowher still made some calls on gameday.

[Shoes]

Yes, because that is what I said. Clearly I was taking the position that Keith Butler is totally awesome and rainbows of defensive genius shoot out of his ass.

Butler being a good, bad, great, or brain-numbingly terrible defensive coordinator is not necessarily linked to the number of plays that Mike Tomlin does or does not call.

Capers and Lebeau were pretty good D coordinators. Bill Cowher still made some calls on gameday..

Tomlin should have have called a few more when Lebeau was here. Like in that Denver game. :chuckle:

[polamalubeast]

No matter who calls the defensive plays, the coaches do not always put players in a position to succeed...If it's Butler, Tomlin or someone who is the moron who puts a LB on a WR, well it needs to stop, since it does not work and it will never work.

I prefer to see Artie Burns on a WR than Vince Williams (as he was on A.J Green sometimes), even if Burns is very bad, but it's worse to see a player being out of position.

To put a LB on a WR is like putting a slow center on Steph Curry in the NBA ... it'll be an easy 3 points or an easy layup

[steelreserve]

I would love to run a 3-5-3 unless we had to play teams that use mobile QBs, especially if they played in our division. I could see that scheme working at the college level unless we had to play Navy or GaTech or some other triple option team. A 3-3-5 might work better but that’s not what it say we are doing.

You could argue that we were SORT OF using a 3-5-3 whem Polamalu was at his best - he did not play a true safety position, more of a wildcard/rover. Maybe that's a 3-4-3-1 or something. If Butler is saying Bush is as good as Polamalu and fills that role, well maybe that's what he meant. It still would mean Bush has to have the ability to cover receivers, which I find kind of ... questionable. Also would mean we gave up on either Davis or Edmunds, or they're going to be one of the "linebackers," in which case that's not a 3-5-3, just a 3-4 with a safety standing in a different place.

[HollywoodSteel]

You could argue that we were SORT OF using a 3-5-3 whem Polamalu was at his best - he did not play a true safety position, more of a wildcard/rover. Maybe that's a 3-4-3-1 or something. If Butler is saying Bush is as good as Polamalu and fills that role, well maybe that's what he meant. It still would mean Bush has to have the ability to cover receivers, which I find kind of ... questionable. Also would mean we gave up on either Davis or Edmunds, or they're going to be one of the "linebackers," in which case that's not a 3-5-3, just a 3-4 with a safety standing in a different place.

I don’t know enough about the specific coverage Butler is talking about, but my guess is that it is about having a kind of hybrid safety/LB like Barron or Marcus Allen in the game. I don’t think he’s talking about taking Edmunds or Davis off the field to put in Matakevich or some extra random linebacker.

[steelreserve]

I don’t know enough about the specific coverage Butler is talking about, but my guess is that it is about having a kind of hybrid safety/LB like Barron or Marcus Allen in the game. I don’t think he’s talking about taking Edmunds or Davis off the field to put in Matakevich or some extra random linebacker.

Well if it was a 3-5-3, that means either one of your existing DBs is playing linebacker, or you took off a DB and put in a linebacker. You only have 3 DBs in that formation. I wouldn't call either one a smart move, unless Bush is Polamalu or Edmunds is Ronnie Lott.

[HollywoodSteel]

I actually just read the SteelersDepot article, and it now seems to me that we’re all taking Butler’s comments completely out of context.

He’s not saying that HE plans to use a 3-5-3 defensive scheme, he’s saying that college teams are employing it more, so subsequently these teams are utilizing speedier linebackers that are now being drafted into the pros.

[Mojouw]

I actually just read the SteelersDepot article, and it now seems to me that we’re all taking Butler’s comments completely out of context.

He’s not saying that HE plans to use a 3-5-3 defensive scheme, he’s saying that college teams are employing it more, so subsequently these teams are utilizing speedier linebackers that are now being drafted into the pros.

Pretty much. Teams are faced with a tough decision set in the NFL. They can keep trying to find the limited # of college players each draft that have experience playing in a pro-style system at the traditional sizes and roles OR they can adapt and change how they use guys in the NFL to cater to the actual players coming out of college.

The last 2-4 year across the league has been about offenses doing exactly that. They have changed pass routes, Qb roles, RB responsibilities, and offensive line schemes in an attempt to maximize the abilities of draft eligible players.

Now the defensive side has to figure out how to the same thing.

[oneforthetoe]

How about a 3-4-4?

It's just crazy enough that it might work.

[Hound]

Just another tool in the chest, the secret isn’t the game plan it’s the adjustments. Besides games against NE and Baltimore the Steelers have been lacking. No excuse to be able to adjust against NE and fail so miserably against the Chargers and Broncos

[RunNGun]

Question...Are we actually talking a 3-5-3 or was there a typo and they meant 3-3-5? I've never heard of any team running a 3-5-3, but to those who are saying it's a prevent defense are completely wrong. If you want prevent, you take the LBs off the field and add more DBs, not the opposite. I'm actually curious as to what our personnel would be in this formation and what it would look like. Would Marcus Allen get a hat in this formation and be labeled a LB?

[hawaiiansteeler]

Question...Are we actually talking a 3-5-3 or was there a typo and they meant 3-3-5? I've never heard of any team running a 3-5-3, but to those who are saying it's a prevent defense are completely wrong. If you want prevent, you take the LBs off the field and add more DBs, not the opposite. I'm actually curious as to what our personnel would be in this formation and what it would look like. Would Marcus Allen get a hat in this formation and be labeled a LB?

just a guess:

Heyward - Hargrave - Tuitt
Dupree - Barron - Bush - Edmunds - Watt
Haden - Davis - Nelson

[Born2Steel]

just a guess:

Heyward - Hargrave - Tuitt
Dupree - Barron - Bush - Edmunds - Watt
Haden - Davis - Nelson

I would guess it more like:

Watt Heyward Tuitt
Smith Barron Bush Gilbert Allen
Edmunds Davis Sutton

3-4 pass rush, everyone else in zone coverage. Not the true ‘prevent’ but prevent.

[hawaiiansteeler]

I would guess it more like:

Watt Heyward Tuitt
Smith Barron Bush Gilbert Allen
Edmunds Davis Sutton

3-4 pass rush, everyone else in zone coverage. Not the true ‘prevent’ but prevent.

that's interesting, you think we take our starting CBs off the field?

[polamalubeast]

Why give yourself misery when you can do that simple ...

It's not Keith Butler who will re-invent the football.

[Mojouw]

This isn't exactly new. They played versions of this when Troy was here. Now that is a bit different, because a great deal of that was Polamalu being Polamalu. But they've been mucking around with a "big nickel" package for how many years now? They might finally have the guys to run it...

[HollywoodSteel]

Maybe you guys are now having a theoretical discussion, but to be clear, Butler did NOT say anything about the Steelers planning to use this formation.

If you read the article you’ll see that he only mentioned that colleges are using the formation more now, which is why linebackers like Devin Bush will become more of the norm.

We don’t have to figure out what a 3-5-3 looks like for the Steelers... unless it’s just fun to think about for some reason.

[RunNGun]

I would guess it more like:

Watt Heyward Tuitt
Smith Barron Bush Gilbert Allen
Edmunds Davis Sutton

3-4 pass rush, everyone else in zone coverage. Not the true ‘prevent’ but prevent.

I don't see Watt or the corners coming off off the field.

Heyward, Hargrave, Tuitt
Edmunds, Dupree, Barron, Watt, Bush
Haden, Nelson, Davis

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It seems more like a 46 defense, imo

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Maybe you guys are now having a theoretical discussion, but to be clear, Butler did NOT say anything about the Steelers planning to use this formation.

If you read the article you’ll see that he only mentioned that colleges are using the formation more now, which is why linebackers like Devin Bush will become more of the norm.

We don’t have to figure out what a 3-5-3 looks like for the Steelers... unless it’s just fun to think about for some reason.

You're ruining all the fun lol

[Born2Steel]

that's interesting, you think we take our starting CBs off the field?

Since the way I see this being employed is on passing downs with a mile to go, or need a score at the end, and everyone is playing a zone responsibility keeping everything in front. In this case you want your best tacklers and not necessarily your best ball defenders. If using this as your base defense then yes you would keep your CBs on the field.

[pczach]

Everyone is making too much of this. The defensive sets are just a set of numbers.

We have a hard time distinguishing a LB from a S from a CB at times. It's all just a matter of finding out what players do well and then finding the right personnel combinations and how the defensive coordinator is able to use it and disguise how they are implementing it.

Don't get wrapped up in what the position titles are on the roster, or the position numbers in a defensive set. All that matters is whether it works on the field or not.

[Born2Steel]

I don't see Watt or the corners coming off off the field.

Heyward, Hargrave, Tuitt
Edmunds, Dupree, Barron, Watt, Bush
Haden, Nelson, Davis

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It seems more like a 46 defense, imo

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You're ruining all the fun lol

I would keep Watt rushing the passer definitely.