5 Most Overrated NFL Head Coaches Heading Into 2019 Season

[hawaiiansteeler]

5 Most Overrated NFL Head Coaches Heading Into 2019 Season

Taylor Smith
04 APR 2019

It can be hard to grade NFL head coaches. Some have immaculate supporting casts that do it all for them, while others have to mold late-round prospects into Super Bowl-winning players. The best way to evaluate them is whether they have performed above or below expectations.

Here are five NFL head coaches that have been underwhelming heading into 2019.

1. Mike Tomlin, Pittsburgh Steelers

Mike Tomlin is one of those coaches that looks great on paper. He excels in the regular season and has had double-digit wins in eight of his 12 seasons, including a Super Bowl win, but you have to put that into context. He has had the luxury of potential Hall of Famers at quarterback, wide receiver and running back for the last five seasons. He has also gone 3-5 in his last five postseason appearances prior to missing out on the playoffs entirely in 2018. Le'Veon Bell is gone, Antonio Brown has been traded, and Ben Roethlisberger is entering his age-37 season. If a coach can't consistently win in the postseason with that offensive core, what is he going to do without it?

to read rest of article:

https://www.fanduel.com/theduel/posts/6336983-5-most-overrated-nfl-head-coaches-heading-into-2019-season/partners/44276?fbclid=IwAR1HsTLbxlFDNfquGkEmEeOaMFKVMm4RldU aHc18gOeqPXPxBmhnV89l_wc

[munchy]

i think this is what divides most steeler fans.
ones that think he is irreplaceable because of his regular season record and the fact he has never had a sub .500 season
and ones that think because he has such as great regular season record that he seriously underachieves come post season............

im definitely in the second group

[Mojouw]

Wow. The lack of information in that article was staggering.

I won't even touch the Steelers entry, because why? We have had that debate here ad infinitum. Look at the Falcons entry. Ignores the massive defensive injuries. Doesn't even mention the disastrous OC decisions. For NYG, just breezes right past the fact that Eli has a fork the size of Staten Island sticking out of him.

I mean, I guess we can go by this self-appointed fantasy guru -- or we could find stuff with facts and analysis. This is Exhibit 5 million and 3 why the internet is just a megaphone for stupid. Plus, any list that doesn't have Bill O'Brien on it or Mike Vrabel or Matt Patricia just isn't trying hard enough.

[Mojouw]

In no particular order:

Jason Garrett - because he agreed to have Jerry Jones remove his spine and use him for a hand puppet in order to cash a pay-check. Dallas wasted the cheap years of Prescott and Eliot by running one of the most vanilla offenses in the league.

Matt Patricia - took a playoff team and made it terrible. But he can claim that he made the Lions tougher and brought a better culture.

Mike Vrabel - another Pats castoff that talks a good game about knowing how to win things and be tough and then fields a team that has a stone-age gameplan, ignores their best offensive weapons for stretches of the season, and runs a defense that no one can explain.

Bill O'Brien - just about the most unimaginative coach in the league. I mean I guess there have been injuries on defense and the RBs have stunk since Foster, but look at the roster and tell me how they keep losing so many games?

Adam Gase - I don't care where he coaches -- this guy is just over-matched. He has never done anything remotely well, but he keeps getting jobs because the NFL is full of risk-averse morons at the highest levels.

[st33lersguy]

I agree. Guy gets praised by people whose standard of success is set at 8-8, but his team overall has woefully underperformed the last 8 years

[Hawkman]

I’m so glad I only read what Mojouw wrote and not the article. He said all I needed to know.

[DesertSteel]

Without reading the article, I can’t disagree with the conclusion. Tomlin, as Bradshaw said, is a cheerleader. He’s at his best when there’s adversity. But when real coaching is needed (e.g., game planning), he comes up small.

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In no particular order:

Jason Garrett - because he agreed to have Jerry Jones remove his spine and use him for a hand puppet in order to cash a pay-check. Dallas wasted the cheap years of Prescott and Eliot by running one of the most vanilla offenses in the league.

Matt Patricia - took a playoff team and made it terrible. But he can claim that he made the Lions tougher and brought a better culture.

Mike Vrabel - another Pats castoff that talks a good game about knowing how to win things and be tough and then fields a team that has a stone-age gameplan, ignores their best offensive weapons for stretches of the season, and runs a defense that no one can explain.

Bill O'Brien - just about the most unimaginative coach in the league. I mean I guess there have been injuries on defense and the RBs have stunk since Foster, but look at the roster and tell me how they keep losing so many games?

Adam Gase - I don't care where he coaches -- this guy is just over-matched. He has never done anything remotely well, but he keeps getting jobs because the NFL is full of risk-averse morons at the highest levels.
Most of those guys aren’t highly thought of so how can they be overrated?

[vasteeler]

Ha ha...how'd I know Tomlin would be first...ha ha

[Mojouw]

Maybe so. But it's still clicbait masquerading as analysis

If you have an NFL job you are automatically well regarded. Out of all the coaches on the planet someone determined you were one of the 3 dozen best.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Born2Steel]

Best Head Coaches in the NFL:

1. Bill Buticheat - Current dynasty is impressive.

2. Mike Tomlin - The only way he's not over-rated is if he's #1. He's the best head coach not named Bill Buticheat. Who's better?

[silver & black]

Ummmm................ okay. I don't think Tomlin should be on the list. I don't honestly think Gruden should be on the list. Gruden has had one season with almost zero talent to work with and a salary cap problem to deal with. Tomlin had to deal with two players making a fuss the whole season. These articles are just click bait bullshit.

Gruden may very well turn out to be deserving of being on the list... but not yet. Tomlin doesn't deserve to be there at all... despite what a lot of Steelers fans think.

[pepsyman1]

Ummmm................ okay. I don't think Tomlin should be on the list. I don't honestly think Gruden should be on the list. Gruden has had one season with almost zero talent to work with and a salary cap problem to deal with. Tomlin had to deal with two players making a fuss the whole season. These articles are just click bait bullshit.

Gruden may very well turn out to be deserving of being on the list... but not yet. Tomlin doesn't deserve to be there at all... despite what a lot of Steelers fans think.

Gotta disagree. 82-45 record during the last 8 seasons and only 3 playoff wins to show for it. With the level of talent that the Steelers have generally had? Hall of Fame QB with lots of talent around him, a defense that's had the same problems for the entire time with no major adjustments or corrections. Some will look at the 82-45 record and the fact that they made the playoffs 5 times but with the level of talent we've had and we're in a division that the Browns have continually been..well, the Browns and we had Marvin Lewis to make sure the Bengals did their usual choke routine you'd have to be useless not to make the playoffs most of the time. I think Tomlin is the new Marvin Lewis.

[Mojouw]

Ok. Try it this way. Take your top 3 criticisms of Tomlin. Now find a coach besides Bellichick they don't also apply to.

[pepsyman1]

Ok. Try it this way. Take your top 3 criticisms of Tomlin. Now find a coach besides Bellichick they don't also apply to.

1). Team is frequently unprepared to play
2). Atrocious at adjusting during the game
3). No significant changes to defensive approach or coaching in years

I agree these types of thing apply to many if not most of the coaches in the league, but the EXTENT of these issues is what's disturbing

[Mojouw]

1). Team is frequently unprepared to play
2). Atrocious at adjusting during the game
3). No significant changes to defensive approach or coaching in years

I agree these types of thing apply to many if not most of the coaches in the league, but the EXTENT of these issues is what's disturbing

Is it? Turn the same level of detail on Ried, harbaugh, Carrol, Peyton, or whoever and is it really any different?

[Craic]

1). Team is frequently unprepared to play
2). Atrocious at adjusting during the game
3). No significant changes to defensive approach or coaching in years

I agree these types of thing apply to many if not most of the coaches in the league, but the EXTENT of these issues is what's disturbing

I'll leave number one alone. Number 2 and 3, however, are just not true. Let's start with 3. When Tomlin came on staff, we ran a fire-blitz defense putting outside CBs on an island and depended on linebackers, cbs, and even safeties firing from weird positions and odd angles to get to the QB. The front three were supposed to be pylons. Unmovable. They didn't need much forward push and they could not get moved backwards. Each guy was supposed to take up 2 blockers (including TE on run plays). That left the seams open for OLBs to stunt and sometimes, for ILBs to do the same. So, the ILBs had to be fast enough to cover but big enough to be run stuffers. The OLBs had to be bulls with speed to get to the QB or seal off the outside on run plays.

Then, football shifted to an even more focused pass attack. So, we shifted along with it. Front three now were not as responsible for eating up lineman. Instead, they were tasked with getting to the QB. The ILBs we drafted were smaller and better equipped (supposedly) to cover the third or fourth wide-out. That defense was just beginning to take shape when the major cog in the machine broke. However, the offensive side of the ball kept changing, so the defense kept changing as well. In the last year or so, they've tried moving to what has been termed the "dollar" defense or a 2-2-7 in specialized situations (.2percent of the snap) and playing more dime (37.2 percent) and as much nickel (29.4 percent) defense as their base defense (30 percent) (which has been going on for a few years now). They've also inserted a 4-3 they ran ten percent of the time last year. That's a 8 percent drop in dime defense, 7 percent rise in nickel defense, and a 13 percent increase in dime. As for blitzing, they went from 28 percent blitz in 2014 to 44.1 percent blitz in 2018. So, yeah, I'd say the defense has changed in approach quite a bit.

As for adjustments at half time, this is a real headscratcher. I know the mantra, but what do the stats say? Pittsburgh was the fourth best offense in the NFL last year in the tird quarter for 1st down percentage, tied for second for most TDs in the third quarter, and tied for seventh best in most plays ending in 1st down or TD. They were 1 behind Kansas in sacks allowed in the third quarter as well. Now, many of these compare about the same to the second quarter stats, all but one. Sacks. Pittsburgh allowed 8 sacks in the second quarter. I'd say that means adjustments were made to keep Ben clean.

The difference that you may be noticing in the defense. But, it's not that the Steelers failed to adjust. It's that other teams adjusted to the Steelers defense at half time. The stat difference is stark. Only 3 teams allowed less first downs in the second quarter than the Steelers. The Steelers were 9th in getting turnovers in the second quarter, and were in third place in TDs allowed and tied for second in 1st downs allowed. In the third quarter, 13 teams allowed less first downs, they were 31st in getting turnovers, 14th in fewest TDs allowed, and 16th in fewest first downs allowed.

So, no there's no problem with half time adjustments AND there's been significant changes. The problem is that our defense was too easily understood by opposing offenses and picked apart at half time by the other team, and our defensive changes haven't amounted to much due to a few bad draft picks an one major ​injury at the heart of the defensive scheme.

[Leopardo]

I'll leave number one alone. Number 2 and 3, however, are just not true. Let's start with 3. When Tomlin came on staff, we ran a fire-blitz defense putting outside CBs on an island and depended on linebackers, cbs, and even safeties firing from weird positions and odd angles to get to the QB. The front three were supposed to be pylons. Unmovable. They didn't need much forward push and they could not get moved backwards. Each guy was supposed to take up 2 blockers (including TE on run plays). That left the seams open for OLBs to stunt and sometimes, for ILBs to do the same. So, the ILBs had to be fast enough to cover but big enough to be run stuffers. The OLBs had to be bulls with speed to get to the QB or seal off the outside on run plays.

Then, football shifted to an even more focused pass attack. So, we shifted along with it. Front three now were not as responsible for eating up lineman. Instead, they were tasked with getting to the QB. The ILBs we drafted were smaller and better equipped (supposedly) to cover the third or fourth wide-out. That defense was just beginning to take shape when the major cog in the machine broke. However, the offensive side of the ball kept changing, so the defense kept changing as well. In the last year or so, they've tried moving to what has been termed the "dollar" defense or a 2-2-7 in specialized situations (.2percent of the snap) and playing more dime (37.2 percent) and as much nickel (29.4 percent) defense as their base defense (30 percent) (which has been going on for a few years now). They've also inserted a 4-3 they ran ten percent of the time last year. That's a 8 percent drop in dime defense, 7 percent rise in nickel defense, and a 13 percent increase in dime. As for blitzing, they went from 28 percent blitz in 2014 to 44.1 percent blitz in 2018. So, yeah, I'd say the defense has changed in approach quite a bit.

As for adjustments at half time, this is a real headscratcher. I know the mantra, but what do the stats say? Pittsburgh was the fourth best offense in the NFL last year in the tird quarter for 1st down percentage, tied for second for most TDs in the third quarter, and tied for seventh best in most plays ending in 1st down or TD. They were 1 behind Kansas in sacks allowed in the third quarter as well. Now, many of these compare about the same to the second quarter stats, all but one. Sacks. Pittsburgh allowed 8 sacks in the second quarter. I'd say that means adjustments were made to keep Ben clean.

The difference that you may be noticing in the defense. But, it's not that the Steelers failed to adjust. It's that other teams adjusted to the Steelers defense at half time. The stat difference is stark. Only 3 teams allowed less first downs in the second quarter than the Steelers. The Steelers were 9th in getting turnovers in the second quarter, and were in third place in TDs allowed and tied for second in 1st downs allowed. In the third quarter, 13 teams allowed less first downs, they were 31st in getting turnovers, 14th in fewest TDs allowed, and 16th in fewest first downs allowed.

So, no there's no problem with half time adjustments AND there's been significant changes. The problem is that our defense was too easily understood by opposing offenses and picked apart at half time by the other team, and our defensive changes haven't amounted to much due to a few bad draft picks an one major ​injury at the heart of the defensive scheme.

I totally agree with you on point 3.

To add to that, they also switched from 2 gap DT to their DL to cover 1 gap so the linemen now can go through those gaps to make plays in the backfield. That's why the last seasons and last year especially Heyward (8), Tuitt (5.5) and Hargrave (6.5) all can produce sacks. It's no coincidence that since they drafted Hargrave 3 years ago the Steelers are leading the league in sacks the last 2 years, while they were a bottom team in that category the years before. Opponents found a way to block our zone blitzes under Lebeau, but the Steelers adjusted to that.

[Mojouw]

Coverage schemes on the back end have been almost totally revamped as well.

[DesertSteel]

Sorry but 3 playoff wins in 8 years with a HOF QB ain’t gonna work for me. Calling Tomlin the second best coach with those results is a joke. Not to mention I actually watch every game and see the ineptitude in crucial situations. There are plenty of coaches who would’ve gotten more than 3 wins in 8 years.

[Mojouw]

Sorry but 3 playoff wins in 8 years with a HOF QB ain’t gonna work for me. Calling Tomlin the second best coach with those results is a joke. Not to mention I actually watch every game and see the ineptitude in crucial situations. There are plenty of coaches who would’ve gotten more than 3 wins in 8 years.


Looking at teams with "loaded rosters" and good Qb situations, I get the following (I might be off on the # of playoff wins by a game here and there as I made assumptions based on seeding and the round they lost in)

Sean Payton has 1 in the last 8 years. maybe 2.
Andy Reid has 1.
Chargers have 1.
Packers have 1.
Colts have 1.
Since their SB loss in 2014, the Seahawks have won 0.

So applying the same evaluations to most of the rest of the league; all those coaches should be fired. 3 of them have been (Packers, Colts, and Chargers) but shouldn't Payton and Carroll be on the chopping block? Certainly Ried. Don't get me started on Harbs...

[munchy]

like i said, the fans that are happy with a great regular season record and substandard post season vs the fans that arent happy with our post season accomplishments

[Michael]

like i said, the fans that are happy with a great regular season record and substandard post season vs the fans that arent happy with our post season accomplishments

Post season performance is a significant part of my disapproval of Tomlin. I personally do not like his bullshit style. Its almost insulting. I accept that many of you are Ok with Tomlin & I have no problem with that. I don't like him as a coach but I do hope he can change my attitude. If he does not change this year I do not think he ever will. I'm looking forward to it.

[DesertSteel]

Looking at teams with "loaded rosters" and good Qb situations, I get the following (I might be off on the # of playoff wins by a game here and there as I made assumptions based on seeding and the round they lost in)

Sean Payton has 1 in the last 8 years. maybe 2.
Andy Reid has 1.
Chargers have 1.
Packers have 1.
Colts have 1.
Since their SB loss in 2014, the Seahawks have won 0.

So applying the same evaluations to most of the rest of the league; all those coaches should be fired. 3 of them have been (Packers, Colts, and Chargers) but shouldn't Payton and Carroll be on the chopping block? Certainly Ried. Don't get me started on Harbs...
Hate to tell you but all those teams except one (Saints) have fired their coaches.

(And Payton has 4, not 1 or 2; not great but better than 1)

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Post season performance is a significant part of my disapproval of Tomlin. I personally do not like his bullshit style. Its almost insulting. I accept that many of you are Ok with Tomlin & I have no problem with that. I don't like him as a coach but I do hope he can change my attitude. If he does not change this year I do not think he ever will. I'm looking forward to it.
I have a problem with his bravado rhetoric at this point. Obviously.

[Mojouw]

Hate to tell you but all those teams except one (Saints) have fired their coaches.

(And Payton has 4, not 1 or 2; not great but better than 1)

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I have a problem with his bravado rhetoric at this point. Obviously.

Yeah. Like I said, I was guessing at record based on playoff seeding and not really looking at whether or not they played on WC weekend. The point still holds that exactly 1 coach in the entire NFL has a significantly better playoff track-record than Tomlin under the time period set out. Maybe three if you don't worry about SB wins.

So if you devise a standard for evaluation and under 10% of the things under evaluation fail that criteria, you have to seriously consider whether or not your criteria are a valid standard for defining success/failure. And that is where things are setting up. Say that Payton, Billy B, and Carroll meet the X number of playoff games in Y years standard -- NO ONE else in the league does....so less than 1 in 10.

[DesertSteel]

Yeah. Like I said, I was guessing at record based on playoff seeding and not really looking at whether or not they played on WC weekend. The point still holds that exactly 1 coach in the entire NFL has a significantly better playoff track-record than Tomlin under the time period set out. Maybe three if you don't worry about SB wins.

So if you devise a standard for evaluation and under 10% of the things under evaluation fail that criteria, you have to seriously consider whether or not your criteria are a valid standard for defining success/failure. And that is where things are setting up. Say that Payton, Billy B, and Carroll meet the X number of playoff games in Y years standard -- NO ONE else in the league does....so less than 1 in 10.
Sometimes it's not just wins and losses. You also have to evaluate WHY a team is losing. Is there inferior talent? If so, there's only so much a coach can do. I don't think the cupboards in Pittsburgh have been bare the past 8 years. Even though it's the Rooney way to keep a coach until he retires, I just think a new voice is needed to take the Steelers back to the Promised Land. I was a Tomlin supporter until the past year-and-a-half. My posting record will show that. But unless he proves me wrong this coming year, he should be gone after 2019.

[Mojouw]

Sometimes it's not just wins and losses. You also have to evaluate WHY a team is losing. Is there inferior talent? If so, there's only so much a coach can do. I don't think the cupboards in Pittsburgh have been bare the past 8 years. Even though it's the Rooney way to keep a coach until he retires, I just think a new voice is needed to take the Steelers back to the Promised Land. I was a Tomlin supporter until the past year-and-a-half. My posting record will show that. But unless he proves me wrong this coming year, he should be gone after 2019.

Fair points. But the cupboards are far from bare in many of the other NFL cities as well. In the last 10 years there are only a few truly hopeless franchises and still hardly any teams are meeting the standard that is being set out here. When that happens, be it football or something else, I think it is useful to turn the question around and determine if the standard is even a valid expectation.

For me the answer is maybe? I think it is far far harder to win in the NFL than most fans acknowledge. It is possible that Tomlin has gone stale and like Dungy and Cowher and others before him he needs to move aside and let a new voice take over. But I honestly doubt that. Talking with rabid fans of several other NFL teams - they all say the same things about their teams/coaches that we say here. "Never prepared." "No adjustments." "Same old crap. Same old sad story." and on and on. For instance, Saints staff is pretty well regarded and usually has those guys coached up really well, and then that whole thing in the playoffs happened where a guy just whiffed a tackle...can you imagine the response here?

There are 32 things under evaluation here and we only look at one of them in detail. We put the Steelers under a high-powered microscope that exposes all their flaws. Then we look at the other teams from across the room and say -- "See?! They are sooo much less flawed...!"

[Fire Goodell]

1). Team is frequently unprepared to play
2). Atrocious at adjusting during the game
3). No significant changes to defensive approach or coaching in years

I agree these types of thing apply to many if not most of the coaches in the league, but the EXTENT of these issues is what's disturbing

Well, we did shut down the Patriots when we played them, so there's that. Though a big part of the result was a great effort by TJ Watt, he was in Brady's face half of the game.

[pczach]

People here are forgetting how hard it is to rebuild a roster and win. He managed to do that yet somehow gets punished for doing it because people now claimed he had such great talent during this entire stretch. After they broke up the Super Bowl contending roster in 2011, the roster was dogshit. You had a couple guys like Polamalu there were still around but we're just shells of their former playing selves. The rest of the roster was complete and utter garbage with the exception of a couple players.

I'm not saying he's the greatest coach in history. What I'm saying is that there are so many people here that don't really know how to characterize the talent level on the rosters that Mike Tomlin has had since 2010 when they went to their last Super Bowl.

[Mojouw]

I am posting on this waaaaay to much and everyone is likely tired of hearing from me on this. I get that and I'll try and hold off. But this is kind of what sticks in my craw -- the idea that there are just tons of other coaches that would have done better. Are there? Where are they? They certainly are not stalking NFL sidelines on Sundays...

...And there are so many blanket statements just tossed off around here and across the internet when it comes to evaluating the success/failure of NFL teams and coaches. Most contain a number of unexamined assumptions that never seem to get questioned.

Take the challenge thing. Early in his career Tomlin was great at it. Middle of his career he was average at it. Last 2 seasons he has been awful. That is certainly more complicated and nuanced than Tomlin is terrible at challenges and shouldn't be allowed to make them. Additionally, what remains unexamined is whether or not losing ANY of those challenges actually took a W off the board for the team. I can not recall it doing so...

[Born2Steel]

I must be one of those fans that is happy with regular season success. Because I am. That doesn’t mean I haven’t been disappointed at losing playoff games because I have been. But first you must make the playoffs. That is not easy to do consistently. It’s really not. You know who does make the playoffs though? Teams that are playing well. Winning in the playoffs is not easy either. It’s actually pretty tough. Tomlin doesn’t win them all and he can improve at some things, but he definitely does it better than most. If anything Tomlin is under-rated.

[FrancoLambert]

He’s a good coach...that’s it.

The bottom line for me is that he’s consistently underachieved with the offensive talent on his teams.

Franchise QB, franchise RB, franchise WR, all in their prime...with all of those, the playoff record is very disappointing.

Great motivator, a player’s coach who hasn’t gotten the most out of his roster. :noidea:

IMO his technical weaknesses (challenges, clock management) have improved but still are below par.

DISCLAIMER: These opinions are solely based on the “eye test” system of football evaluation.
No statistics, databases, charts were used.
:wink02:

[DesertSteel]

It is possible that Tomlin has gone stale and like Dungy and Cowher and others before him he needs to move aside and let a new voice take over.
That is my point entirely. I get it that you don't hold that view, but it does happen within coaching. There have been countless examples of this happening throughout sports. I think it happens a lot when a coach relies on his persona and Tomlin has a big persona. I know the reality is that the Steelers will probably have to go 4-12 next year for Tomlin's job to be in trouble and even then he'd likely be retained.

My view: Tomlin is to Coach rankings as Big Ben is to QB rankings. Neither are top 3, but they're each top 4-8 based on the year.

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And as it relates to enjoying seasons, the Steelers don't have to win the Super Bowl for me to enjoy the season. I'm getting too old for that! I can't think of a season in recent memory that I didn't appreciate and enjoy.

[zulater]

The thing is only one team can win it every year, and when you have an all time franchise in your conference it's tough. Look how Shula with Unitas couldn't win because of Lombardi. For that matter how was it Shula only made one SB with Marino? Those great Raiders teams of the 70's ,hall of famers all over the roster, only won 1 SB in that era because of the Steelers. The Chargers with Fouts and K. Winslow never won anything. George Allen, great coach never won the big one. Took Landry 11 years to finally win one.

I've got problems with some of the things Tomlin does. But at the same token I'm not sure who is out there that would be better?

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

but shouldn't Payton and Carroll be on the chopping block? Certainly Ried. Don't get me started on Harbs...

I am not a big fan of Carroll, but IMO he should have been coach of the year last season for taking a team that lost all the members of that Legion of Boom secondary, top front 7 guys like Bruce Irvin, Michael Bennett and putting together a patchwork O line that was able to win games and get to the playoffs.

[Mojouw]

I am not a big fan of Carroll, but IMO he should have been coach of the year last season for taking a team that lost all the members of that Legion of Boom secondary, top front 7 guys like Bruce Irvin, Michael Bennett and putting together a patchwork O line that was able to win games and get to the playoffs.

I don't disagree.

[hawaiiansteeler]

DISCLAIMER: These opinions are solely based on the “eye test” system of football evaluation.
No statistics, databases, charts were used.
:wink02:

got a link? :rofl2:

[Leopardo]

He’s a good coach...that’s it.

The bottom line for me is that he’s consistently underachieved with the offensive talent on his teams.

Franchise QB, franchise RB, franchise WR, all in their prime...with all of those, the playoff record is very disappointing.

Great motivator, a player’s coach who hasn’t gotten the most out of his roster. :noidea:

IMO his technical weaknesses (challenges, clock management) have improved but still are below par.

DISCLAIMER: These opinions are solely based on the “eye test” system of football evaluation.
No statistics, databases, charts were used.
:wink02:

And in how many play-off games were Bell and Brown healthy enough that they both could play?

The answer is 4. And in one of those games, the AFCCG at the Patriots in 2016 Bell got injured early in the game. They won the previous 2 games that year. The only game they lost in the play-offs where they both played is the 2017 game against the Jaguars.
I also recall the Broncos game in 2015 without Bell and Brown and with an injured Roethlisberger where the Steelers almost upset the Broncos in Denver if it wasn't for a Toussaint fumble. The Broncos went on to win the SB that year.
We just got unlucky with crucial injuries the last 5 years (if Shazier didn't get his injury in 2017 we probably would have beaten the Patriots in the regular season and certainly the Jaguars in the play-offs) just before or during the postseason or the Steelers' and Tomlin's success in the play-offs during that span would be much higher now. I know that every team suffers injuries, but we got unlucky that it happened to our most crucial players at the wrong times and people often tend to forget that.

[86WARD]

The thing people get upset about is that the Steelers are clearly a better team (on paper-talent wise) then the teams they are losing to. If they were running around with Drew Brees and the Saints roster from year-to-year, it may be a little different. But the past several seasons, they’ve had a very talented high level roster and came up empty every time. Underachieving...that’s the issue with most fans. Sure there’s a plethora of excuses you can apply to every situation, but the “underachieving” is what sparks the fire.

[FrancoLambert]

got a link? :rofl2:

Yes.

www.opticnerve-cerebralcortex.com (http://www.opticnerve-cerebralcortex.com)

:drink:

[Mojouw]

The thing people get upset about is that the Steelers are clearly a better team (on paper-talent wise) then the teams they are losing to. If they were running around with Drew Brees and the Saints roster from year-to-year, it may be a little different. But the past several seasons, they’ve had a very talented high level roster and came up empty every time. Underachieving...that’s the issue with most fans. Sure there’s a plethora of excuses you can apply to every situation, but the “underachieving” is what sparks the fire.

Would that be the Drew Brees and the Saints roster loaded with offensive talent helmed by a head-coach regarded as an offensive mastermind and then linked to a defense that can not reliably stop anyone?

That was the Saints excuse/explanation for years. A whole bunch of them. Now Steelers are or were or something in the same neighborhood and it is not the same excuse/explanation...?

If the last X number of years of the Steelers is underachieving because of the roster than all those Saints rosters were similar underachieving. What about the Jaguars? Sure they had Bortles, but the rest of that team was loaded. Plus they are gritty and so Coughlin style disciplined. Surely, they met expectations? Or the Vikings. Gave Cousins armored cars full of cash to be the missing piece on a team loaded for bear - and kinda fell flat on their face. Surely, that was not meet expectations.

It is hard AF to win games in the NFL. One thing goes different than you thought and it is all out the window. The lynchpin of your defense. Or your kicker. Or the total mental disintegration of your RCB.

For me, the problem I have with the Tomlin/Colbert regime is that there seems to be no real innovation(s). The rest of the league is adapting and trying new things. The Steelers are building their roster, structuring their contracts, prioritizing their draft, and pursuing game day strategies the same old way. Sure they shifted the defensive approach the way Craic described it earlier, but other than that...not much. Adapt or die. I feel like the league is changing rapidly and the Steelers seem to be running the same course.

[86WARD]

Would that be the Drew Brees and the Saints roster loaded with offensive talent helmed by a head-coach regarded as an offensive mastermind and then linked to a defense that can not reliably stop anyone?

That was the Saints excuse/explanation for years. A whole bunch of them. Now Steelers are or were or something in the same neighborhood and it is not the same excuse/explanation...?

If the last X number of years of the Steelers is underachieving because of the roster than all those Saints rosters were similar underachieving. What about the Jaguars? Sure they had Bortles, but the rest of that team was loaded. Plus they are gritty and so Coughlin style disciplined. Surely, they met expectations? Or the Vikings. Gave Cousins armored cars full of cash to be the missing piece on a team loaded for bear - and kinda fell flat on their face. Surely, that was not meet expectations.

It is hard AF to win games in the NFL. One thing goes different than you thought and it is all out the window. The lynchpin of your defense. Or your kicker. Or the total mental disintegration of your RCB.

For me, the problem I have with the Tomlin/Colbert regime is that there seems to be no real innovation(s). The rest of the league is adapting and trying new things. The Steelers are building their roster, structuring their contracts, prioritizing their draft, and pursuing game day strategies the same old way. Sure they shifted the defensive approach the way Craic described it earlier, but other than that...not much. Adapt or die. I feel like the league is changing rapidly and the Steelers seem to be running the same course.

Steelers offensive roster has been much better than the Saints roster and has been better over a longer period of time. The Saints talent level has become very close with Kamara and Thomas and the omission of Bell but with Bell and over the last 5 seasons, which roster are you taking? I’m taking the Steelers 5 out of 5 unless I’m overlooking someone from the Saints...which is possible.

Anyway, the “underachieving” has lasted a good stretch of time and I think that’s what gets fans upset. I’m not swearing that this is where the anger comes from it’s just a theory.

[DesertSteel]

Steelers offensive roster has been much better than the Saints roster and has been better over a longer period of time. The Saints talent level has become very close with Kamara and Thomas and the omission of Bell but with Bell and over the last 5 seasons, which roster are you taking? I’m taking the Steelers 5 out of 5 unless I’m overlooking someone from the Saints...which is possible.

Anyway, the “underachieving” has lasted a good stretch of time and I think that’s what gets fans upset. I’m not swearing that this is where the anger comes from it’s just a theory.
I agree other than Brees.

[Mojouw]

Steelers offensive roster has been much better than the Saints roster and has been better over a longer period of time. The Saints talent level has become very close with Kamara and Thomas and the omission of Bell but with Bell and over the last 5 seasons, which roster are you taking? I’m taking the Steelers 5 out of 5 unless I’m overlooking someone from the Saints...which is possible.

Anyway, the “underachieving” has lasted a good stretch of time and I think that’s what gets fans upset. I’m not swearing that this is where the anger comes from it’s just a theory.

Jimmy Graham
Michael Thomas
Marques Colston
A great # of pretty darn good RBs.

I would argue the offensive rosters have not been that far apart over a 8-10 year period -- the one that seems to be under consideration for evaluating Tomlin. I can see what people are saying that the offensive "names" or some subjective valuation of individual talents may give the Steelers an edge, but the raw production and on-field achievements have been essentially equal or favoring the Saints.

[Born2Steel]

Does anyone consider that Tomlin took a 6th round WR and a 2nd round RB and helped them become the best tandem in the NFL? Now that we know just how self absorbed they actually are makes it even more impressive.

[Shoes]

Does anyone consider that Tomlin took a 6th round WR and a 2nd round RB and helped them become the best tandem in the NFL? Now that we know just how self absorbed they actually are makes it even more impressive.

How did he help them do that? Seems to me Tomlin is a delegator which means some other coach did all the work.

[munchy]

People here are forgetting how hard it is to rebuild a roster and win. He managed to do that yet somehow gets punished for doing it because people now claimed he had such great talent during this entire stretch. After they broke up the Super Bowl contending roster in 2011, the roster was dogshit. You had a couple guys like Polamalu there were still around but we're just shells of their former playing selves. The rest of the roster was complete and utter garbage with the exception of a couple players.

I'm not saying he's the greatest coach in history. What I'm saying is that there are so many people here that don't really know how to characterize the talent level on the rosters that Mike Tomlin has had since 2010 when they went to their last Super Bowl.

i would like to see where more than 1 poster said(before the season started) that our roster sucked and had no talent. i would like to see where the real knowledgeable fans evaluated out roster and then predicted a 3-13 season any of those years.
its easy to make excuses for tomlin years later and say he didnt have any talent
ive been on numerous message boards and have never seen anyone make such claims
i dont recall vegas giving us an over/under of 4 wins any of those years
i cant recall nay talking heads predicting us to finish last in our division
and obviously if our talent level was as bad as you claim it was, any or all of the above would have been happened.
what i did see was us being mentioned as super bowl contenders most years..............by everybody

[munchy]

Does anyone consider that Tomlin took a 6th round WR and a 2nd round RB and helped them become the best tandem in the NFL? Now that we know just how self absorbed they actually are makes it even more impressive.

how did he do with a first round cb in artie burns?
what did he do to develop him into what he is?

[Mojouw]

i would like to see where more than 1 poster said(before the season started) that our roster sucked and had no talent. i would like to see where the real knowledgeable fans evaluated out roster and then predicted a 3-13 season any of those years.
its easy to make excuses for tomlin years later and say he didnt have any talent
ive been on numerous message boards and have never seen anyone make such claims
i dont recall vegas giving us an over/under of 4 wins any of those years
i cant recall nay talking heads predicting us to finish last in our division
and obviously if our talent level was as bad as you claim it was, any or all of the above would have been happened.
what i did see was us being mentioned as super bowl contenders most years..............by everybody

I saw at least a few places predicting 8-10 wins the last few seasons. Which is kinda right where the team has been at.

For me, when I look at the roster and whatnot, I see a 8-10 win team that can move to that 10-12 mark with a few good breaks. A team that can make a serious SB run (12-14 wins) with a decent amount of luck and players taking the step to the next level.

Honestly, Boswell kicks like Boswell and the defense generates 4-5 more turnovers and we aren't having these conversations. But neither of those things happened, so we are?

- - - Updated - - -


how did he do with a first round cb in artie burns?
what did he do to develop him into what he is?

So there is a ton of blame for that. On a continuum of player scouting and player development. But the other side of that coin is the team squeezed a competent year or two out of Coty Sensabaugh, a scrap-heap dude.

[munchy]

I saw at least a few places predicting 8-10 wins the last few seasons. Which is kinda right where the team has been at.

For me, when I look at the roster and whatnot, I see a 8-10 win team that can move to that 10-12 mark with a few good breaks. A team that can make a serious SB run (12-14 wins) with a decent amount of luck and players taking the step to the next level.

Honestly, Boswell kicks like Boswell and the defense generates 4-5 more turnovers and we aren't having these conversations. But neither of those things happened, so we are?

- - - Updated - - -



So there is a ton of blame for that. On a continuum of player scouting and player development. But the other side of that coin is the team squeezed a competent year or two out of Coty Sensabaugh, a scrap-heap dude.


the artie burns thing was just too easy....lol

as far as the 8-10 wins, i sorta agree(10 wins tho)
i juts dont buy that we were so void of talent, as the one posters said. that is just his/her excuse to defend tomlin. as far as i ma concerned, there are no teams in the nfl that are so void of talent that would warrant a couple win season

[DesertSteel]

Does anyone consider that Tomlin took a 6th round WR and a 2nd round RB and helped them become the best tandem in the NFL? Now that we know just how self absorbed they actually are makes it even more impressive.
I'm not really sure what Tomlin does TBH. I don't even mean that negatively, I just don't know. Even his level of involvement with the defense the past couple years remains a mystery. The only thing I know for sure that Tomlin does is make challenges, and we know his record there. And with that comment I'm definitely being negative, but to the larger question, I'd just like to know what Tomlin is and isn't responsible for.

[Born2Steel]

How did he help them do that? Seems to me Tomlin is a delegator which means some other coach did all the work.

Ok then. What do you think Tomlin does at Steelers practice or in the film room or in position group meetings? Is he doing anything at all in your reckoning? Just hanging back with the fans and media chilling until the presser? Maybe he’s got the grill fired up and the cooler full of ice and cold IC Lite. Could be he just lays back in the grass making animal shapes out of the clouds. He’s a coach. He’s fucking coaching.

[Shoes]

Ok then. What do you think Tomlin does at Steelers practice or in the film room or in position group meetings? Is he doing anything at all in your reckoning? Just hanging back with the fans and media chilling until the presser? Maybe he’s got the grill fired up and the cooler full of ice and cold IC Lite. Could be he just lays back in the grass making animal shapes out of the clouds. He’s a coach. He’s fucking coaching..

I don't know what Tomlin does. He was suppose to be a DB guru how's that been since he became a coach? I think he talks a lot and is full of shit. A politician if you will.

[Mojouw]

Ok then. What do you think Tomlin does at Steelers practice or in the film room or in position group meetings? Is he doing anything at all in your reckoning? Just hanging back with the fans and media chilling until the presser? Maybe he’s got the grill fired up and the cooler full of ice and cold IC Lite. Could be he just lays back in the grass making animal shapes out of the clouds. He’s a coach. He’s fucking coaching.
Nah. He's just chilling. Staring at clouds and making up cool press conference lines. Obviously.

[Shoes]

Nah. He's just chilling. Staring at clouds and making up cool press conference lines. Obviously.


That is what he is best at. Even you noticed. :chuckle:

[pczach]

i would like to see where more than 1 poster said(before the season started) that our roster sucked and had no talent. i would like to see where the real knowledgeable fans evaluated out roster and then predicted a 3-13 season any of those years.
its easy to make excuses for tomlin years later and say he didnt have any talent
ive been on numerous message boards and have never seen anyone make such claims
i dont recall vegas giving us an over/under of 4 wins any of those years
i cant recall nay talking heads predicting us to finish last in our division
and obviously if our talent level was as bad as you claim it was, any or all of the above would have been happened.
what i did see was us being mentioned as super bowl contenders most years..............by everybody


I wasn't talking about last year. I was talking about the seasons after 2011.....as I stated in the post you responded to. It has been the last couple seasons that have disappointed with the talent level. Before that, it was a patchwork roster as it took time to replace all those veterans from 2011 and draft talent to build it into the roster you see today.

Look at the rosters listed below. Please notice the ages of the roster in 2012, and then how it was systematically replaced over the following years. Then please point out the great players on the rosters, particularly on the defensive side of the ball.

Nearly the entire roster needed to be replaced. They were able to do that and they didn't have a losing season with those rosters and those defenses.

Take Ben off of those teams from 2012-2016 and there were a couple 3-5 win teams. Saying otherwise is delusional.

Not until 2017 did they have a roster that you would say is very strong and should contend for a Super Bowl. You could see how much talent they acquired through the draft.



Steelers 2012 roster: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2012_roster.htm

Steelers 2013 roster: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2013_roster.htm

Steelers 2014 roster: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2014_roster.htm

Steelers 2015 roster: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2015_roster.htm

Steelers 2016 roster: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2016_roster.htm

Steelers 2017 roster: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2017_roster.htm

[Craic]

Sometimes it's not just wins and losses. You also have to evaluate WHY a team is losing. Is there inferior talent? If so, there's only so much a coach can do. I don't think the cupboards in Pittsburgh have been bare the past 8 years. Even though it's the Rooney way to keep a coach until he retires, I just think a new voice is needed to take the Steelers back to the Promised Land. I was a Tomlin supporter until the past year-and-a-half. My posting record will show that. But unless he proves me wrong this coming year, he should be gone after 2019.

And that's where we disagree. Sure, we had a great offense. However, the best weapons on that often were not on the field together that often. Heck, when you add in Bryant, between 2014-2017 those four were on the field together exactly .5 games. More importantly, however, the cupboards were bare on defense. We had had only two good lineman for most of the decade (players past primes don't count). Our CB cupboards were not only bare, but the entire cabinet was rated x because the dust bunnies were multiplying so fast in the empty space. We draft a great LB who was injured and threw what was looking to be a decent if slow rebuild completely off kilter again.

So, yes, we had a very good offense and great offensive line but it was more than balanced by our horrid defense. It's as if we had every kind of cheese in the world, but no meat, no crackers, not even tortillas or chips to have with it. Instead, all we had was wine. And, whine and cheese gets old real quick.

[pepsyman1]

. So, yes, we had a very good offense and great offensive line but it was more than balanced by our horrid defense. It's as if we had every kind of cheese in the world, but no meat, no crackers, not even tortillas or chips to have with it. Instead, all we had was wine. And, whine and cheese gets old real quick.

I will totally agree with this assessment. Our defensive talent as a whole has been below the line, especially the secondary, but isn't THAT Tomlin's responsibility? I think we've had some good talent drafted for the defensive line; although we've had a couple of busts on pass rushers, we've drafted some great linebacker talent as well but our SECONDARY (which is supposed to be a Tomlin strength) has been an abysmal failure. Our DC sucks and our Special Teams coach sucks but Tomlin seems content to run with them.

[munchy]

I wasn't talking about last year. I was talking about the seasons after 2011.....as I stated in the post you responded to. It has been the last couple seasons that have disappointed with the talent level. Before that, it was a patchwork roster as it took time to replace all those veterans from 2011 and draft talent to build it into the roster you see today.

Look at the rosters listed below. Please notice the ages of the roster in 2012, and then how it was systematically replaced over the following years. Then please point out the great players on the rosters, particularly on the defensive side of the ball.

Nearly the entire roster needed to be replaced. They were able to do that and they didn't have a losing season with those rosters and those defenses.

Take Ben off of those teams from 2012-2016 and there were a couple 3-5 win teams. Saying otherwise is delusional.

Not until 2017 did they have a roster that you would say is very strong and should contend for a Super Bowl. You could see how much talent they acquired through the draft.



Steelers 2012 roster: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2012_roster.htm

Steelers 2013 roster: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2013_roster.htm

Steelers 2014 roster: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2014_roster.htm

Steelers 2015 roster: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2015_roster.htm

Steelers 2016 roster: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2016_roster.htm

Steelers 2017 roster: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2017_roster.htm


i was talking about all years since the super bowl loss, including the year after.
i dint recall anyone saying our roster is totally void of talent and predicted us to only win 2-4 games because of it, fans, vegas talking heads, etc
i dont recall ever year after the super bowl loss where tomlin started to build cowhers super bow winning team where they were predicted to only win 5-6 then 6-7 then 7-9 etc..

im not going to waste my time arguing over talent. point being is ikn todays nfl you cant expect to wait 6 years to build a team back up. players usually dont stay that long. there is FA id build team quick if you chose to

[Mojouw]

If it is so easy to build a team up quickly, why do the same teams appear in the SB regularly and the same teams pick at the top of the draft regularly?

This isn't Madden. It is real life and it is hard as hell to do well.

[munchy]

If it is so easy to build a team up quickly, why do the same teams appear in the SB regularly and the same teams pick at the top of the draft regularly?

This isn't Madden. It is real life and it is hard as hell to do well.


im not saying it is easy. you still have to draft well, spend wisely, get lucky and use FA correctly. the teams that sorta know what they are doing will continue to do well. the crappy ones will still be crappy
im saying it doesnt take 6 years if you are doing it right.
other than your franchise qb and few other players, who sticks around for more than 6 years?
they say an average career is what 2-3 years?

[Mojouw]

im not saying it is easy. you still have to draft well, spend wisely, get lucky and use FA correctly. the teams that sorta know what they are doing will continue to do well. the crappy ones will still be crappy
im saying it doesnt take 6 years if you are doing it right.
other than your franchise qb and few other players, who sticks around for more than 6 years?
they say an average career is what 2-3 years?

But all of that is not supported by any real-world evidence. You are correct about career length, but find me a team that went to a SB, tore down that SB core and built another and went back in a sub 6 year window. Since 2000, I got the Patriots and MAYBE the 2008 and 2012 Giants. Every other participant in the SB is either a single year appearance, multiple appearances with the same roster, or multiple appearances separated by more than 6 years.

All I can say is that while you are claiming that it should not take 6 years; there is only 1 NFL team that has conclusively done what you are saying is possible. Maybe 2 in the last 18 seasons. Perhaps your original assessment about how easy it is to quickly rebuild a roster is not correct?

[munchy]

But all of that is not supported by any real-world evidence. You are correct about career length, but find me a team that went to a SB, tore down that SB core and built another and went back in a sub 6 year window. Since 2000, I got the Patriots and MAYBE the 2008 and 2012 Giants. Every other participant in the SB is either a single year appearance, multiple appearances with the same roster, or multiple appearances separated by more than 6 years.

All I can say is that while you are claiming that it should not take 6 years; there is only 1 NFL team that has conclusively done what you are saying is possible. Maybe 2 in the last 18 seasons. Perhaps your original assessment about how easy it is to quickly rebuild a roster is not correct?


this has spun off topic a bit
i took exception to the poster that said this team had zero/little talent until the last couple years.
a quick gogle search discovered that out odds to win the super bowl were
2011 9th best
2012 6th
2013 14th
2015 11th
'2016 7th
2017 2nd
2018 7th
now im sure others can find sites with different odds. my point is i dont see any odds makers that had this teams talent level so low that they felt compelled to rate them any lower than 14th during that span. even the year in question they had them 9th best.
vegas doesnt set over/unders to lose money
so this excuse that the team was tore down to no talent and tomlin kept them above .500 is not true

[Mojouw]

this has spun off topic a bit
i took exception to the poster that said this team had zero/little talent until the last couple years.
a quick gogle search discovered that out odds to win the super bowl were
2011 9th best
2012 6th
2013 14th
2015 11th
'2016 7th
2017 2nd
2018 7th
now im sure others can find sites with different odds. my point is i dont see any odds makers that had this teams talent level so low that they felt compelled to rate them any lower than 14th during that span. even the year in question they had them 9th best.
vegas doesnt set over/unders to lose money
so this excuse that the team was tore down to no talent and tomlin kept them above .500 is not true

Ok. So this is not what you have been posting about. Or at least this is not what your posts have made clear. Now, to support that 8-8 or 9-7 is truly the underachievement that your postings seem to imply you believe it is; you would need to go correlate those odds with the actual finish. In other words what was the Steelers finish in 2013 - more or less than 14th place. If not 14th place, what was the 14th place team's record and what was the Steelers.

That would be how you could support and clarify your point rather than just issuing big statements that don't appear grounded in facts.

[st33lersguy]

Here are generally the arguments used in favor of Tomlin/to justify Tomlin

1. Lower the standards of success to 8 wins with a franchise QB and keep repeating "Tomlin has never had a losing season". Unfortunately this is not a good standard of success to have

2. Bash Bill Cowher and point out of all of his faults: This is done in attempt to make Tomlin look not so bad. Unfortunately you can't build up one guy by simply tearing down another, not how it works

3. Bash every head coach not named Bill Bellichick (though sometimes even he will be bashed by being called a cheater): The purpose is to artificially enhance Tomlin's rankings among current head coaches and claim he is no. 2

4. Claim there aren't better options out there: Better to just stick with Tomlin's constant underachieving rather than try out a new first time head coach even though the best head coaching tenures usually have been 1st time NFL head coaching hires

All this is done to try and justify sticking with Tomlin and claiming he has done a good job in recent years despite the constant underachieving the last 8 years, frequently looking unprepared, losing as large favorites more often than any head coach (such as his inability to win in Oakland despite the fact that the Raiders have been one of the worst teams in pro sports the last decade and a half), 1 embarrassing playoff loss to show for 18 pro bowlers in a pathetically weak conference the last 2 years, constantly being outcoached, and terrible in-game management. He was good early in his career but not in recent years. The most notable thing Tomlin has done the last 8 years is somehow lose playoff games to Tim Tebow and Broncos team with the 2nd worst point differential for a playoff team in NFL history and Blake Bortles and team that won 3 games the prior year and 5 games the following year

[Mojouw]

Here are generally the arguments used in favor of Tomlin/to justify Tomlin

1. Lower the standards of success to 8 wins with a franchise QB and keep repeating "Tomlin has never had a losing season". Unfortunately this is not a good standard of success to have

2. Bash Bill Cowher and point out of all of his faults: This is done in attempt to make Tomlin look not so bad. Unfortunately you can't build up one guy by simply tearing down another, not how it works

3. Bash every head coach not named Bill Bellichick (though sometimes even he will be bashed by being called a cheater): The purpose is to artificially enhance Tomlin's rankings among current head coaches and claim he is no. 2

4. Claim there aren't better options out there: Better to just stick with Tomlin's constant underachieving rather than try out a new first time head coach even though the best head coaching tenures usually have been 1st time NFL head coaching hires

All this is done to try and justify sticking with Tomlin and claiming he has done a good job in recent years despite the constant underachieving the last 8 years, frequently looking unprepared, losing as large favorites more often than any head coach (such as his inability to win in Oakland despite the fact that the Raiders have been one of the worst teams in pro sports the last decade and a half), 1 embarrassing playoff loss to show for 18 pro bowlers in a pathetically weak conference the last 2 years, constantly being outcoached, and terrible in-game management. He was good early in his career but not in recent years. The most notable thing Tomlin has done the last 8 years is somehow lose playoff games to Tim Tebow and Broncos team with the 2nd worst point differential for a playoff team in NFL history and Blake Bortles and team that won 3 games the prior year and 5 games the following year

That is a nice solid rant and all. But really what most are arguing for is not an actual defense or support of Tomlin, but a defense of fundamental logic and how to develop and support an argument.

One can not simply just yell repeatedly that "Tomlin's teams underachieve!" and offer as the only support hyperbolic cover statements such as "any coach would have done better", "no team is this unprepared", "plays down to opponents more than any other team", "most talented roster in the league"...etc. with no supporting information. That could include, how you are measuring any of that. What criteria are being used to rank teams. Are there any standards or comparisons being used besides arbitrary ones that have not been demonstrated to be achievable in the actual NFL?

Honestly, most of the "FIRE TOMLIN!" postings appear to come down to how rabid die-hard Steelers fans are sad, angry, and just plain an emotional wreck that their favorite team didn't win more games so they can feel good about everything. Then when pushed for a rationale, clinical discussion of facts - the goalposts are typically moved, the parameters are reset, and the whole dance begins again.

Like if you want to be angry, be angry. Rant. Rave. Just don't get surprised if sometimes others ask for more information besides seemingly angry yelling.

As recently as last season most folks were adamant that Mike McCarthy was a superior coach to Mike Tomlin because of discipline or something. Then he got fired and the real real came out. And Reid and Sean Payton are currently getting some of the Anti-Tomlin crowd all breathy. Almost every single criticism of Tomlin applies equally to those two. Double for Harbaugh - either one. And finally their is the new golden boy - McVay. Who somewhere along the way forgot to account for I-formation rushing and a pass rush in designing his warp speed circus. All coaches have their flaws and problems.

Except, "other unknown coach" -- that guy is just waiting to be discovered and lead a lucky NFL franchise to unheard of success.

[silver & black]

How did he help them do that? Seems to me Tomlin is a delegator which means some other coach did all the work.

Aren't most head coaches delegators? Isn't that why there are so many specialty coaches under a head coach?

[munchy]

Ok. So this is not what you have been posting about. Or at least this is not what your posts have made clear. Now, to support that 8-8 or 9-7 is truly the underachievement that your postings seem to imply you believe it is; you would need to go correlate those odds with the actual finish. In other words what was the Steelers finish in 2013 - more or less than 14th place. If not 14th place, what was the 14th place team's record and what was the Steelers.

That would be how you could support and clarify your point rather than just issuing big statements that don't appear grounded in facts.


im not implying anything.
i didnt say that because vegas ranked us 14th that we should finish 14th. i am saying a team totally void of any talent other than a player or two would not be predicted to finish highe then 15th the last 8 years
my point was to argue the utter lack of talent to defend tomlin is foolish

[Mojouw]

im not implying anything.
i didnt say that because vegas ranked us 14th that we should finish 14th. i am saying a team totally void of any talent other than a player or two would not be predicted to finish highe then 15th the last 8 years
my point was to argue the utter lack of talent to defend tomlin is foolish

If that is the case, you are arguing against a position that no one has taken. There is a pretty big gap between "not enough talent to compete for a SB" and "utter lack of talent".

Again, bold declarative exaggerated characterizations of arguments are not really effective. I know the internet seems to teach us that it is.

So, are you saying that the Steelers are a 10-12 win team instead of a 7-9 win team during the 2011-2017 period? Because that is the debate...I believe...not that the Steelers were a 4-6 win team.

[munchy]

If that is the case, you are arguing against a position that no one has taken. There is a pretty big gap between "not enough talent to compete for a SB" and "utter lack of talent".

Again, bold declarative exaggerated characterizations of arguments are not really effective. I know the internet seems to teach us that it is.

So, are you saying that the Steelers are a 10-12 win team instead of a 7-9 win team during the 2011-2017 period? Because that is the debate...I believe...not that the Steelers were a 4-6 win team.


what are you talking about?

this individual made this statement...................
After they broke up the Super Bowl contending roster in 2011, the roster was dogshit. You had a couple guys like Polamalu there were still around but we're just shells of their former playing selves. The rest of the roster was complete and utter garbage with the exception of a couple players.

this is position that i am arguing about. how you can say no one has made this claim is absurd

[Mojouw]

what are you talking about?

this individual made this statement...................
After they broke up the Super Bowl contending roster in 2011, the roster was dogshit. You had a couple guys like Polamalu there were still around but we're just shells of their former playing selves. The rest of the roster was complete and utter garbage with the exception of a couple players.

this is position that i am arguing about. how you can say no one has made this claim is absurd

And those teams went 8-8. Which seems to be what is the crux of the issue. Was that a reasonable or unreasonable achievement. I look at the roster and the performance of the 2012-13 teams and I figure "Yeah. That seems about right."

Now others look at it and see a potential SB team. Other see a 6-10 team.

All I am asking is that if you feel that the statement about the quality of the roster was not fair or reflected reality, counter it with something substantial other than just offering bold claims in the other direction.

[munchy]

And those teams went 8-8. Which seems to be what is the crux of the issue. Was that a reasonable or unreasonable achievement. I look at the roster and the performance of the 2012-13 teams and I figure "Yeah. That seems about right."

Now others look at it and see a potential SB team. Other see a 6-10 team.

All I am asking is that if you feel that the statement about the quality of the roster was not fair or reflected reality, counter it with something substantial other than just offering bold claims in the other direction.



lol..you are the king at moving the goal post. ill give you that.

ill answer you just to amuse myself because i know how you operate.
i substantiated it by showing how people that make millions off the game of football never made that statement on how bad we are.
there is no countering it. ui will say player X is good, he will say he isnt just to back his claim. just like you kept changing the rules after you said bush is the most prized player other than edge, ot and qb
i want him/her to tell me before those seasons started that he/she said we had one of the worst talented teams in the league
if that happened then this person is a freaking genius because they were the only one in the world that knew it. not one bookie, or casino knew it. not a single person on nfl network, espn, espn2, hell any football guy. any sports publication..............nobody but him/her...........if they did indeed make that statement. every steeler site has a topic that says 'guess our record'. id love to see that persons response that said, 'we are void of talent. so we will probably only won a few games.'

[Mojouw]

lol..you are the king at moving the goal post. ill give you that.

ill answer you just to amuse myself because i know how you operate.
i substantiated it by showing how people that make millions off the game of football never made that statement on how bad we are.
there is no countering it. ui will say player X is good, he will say he isnt just to back his claim. just like you kept changing the rules after you said bush is the most prized player other than edge, ot and qb
i want him/her to tell me before those seasons started that he/she said we had one of the worst talented teams in the league
if that happened then this person is a freaking genius because they were the only one in the world that knew it. not one bookie, or casino knew it. not a single person on nfl network, espn, espn2, hell any football guy. any sports publication..............nobody but him/her...........if they did indeed make that statement. every steeler site has a topic that says 'guess our record'. id love to see that persons response that said, 'we are void of talent. so we will probably only won a few games.'

I'm sorry but I literally no longer have any idea what your point is. Are we now talking about predictions and their accuracy? Or is your point that none of the shouty men on TV said the Steelers would be bad in 2012 but they went 8-8 so something?

Also one of the most accurate predictors of the draft in recent years has a draft heavy on pass rushers and two ILB

https://thehuddlereport.com/md.Forrest.shtml

FWIW, I do think you have an interesting point about using oddsmakers or other projection system to evaluate seasonal success or failure. However, my increasingly addled brain isn't sure we all aren't saying the same thing. Wouldn't 14th be about 8-8?

[pczach]

im not implying anything.
i didnt say that because vegas ranked us 14th that we should finish 14th. i am saying a team totally void of any talent other than a player or two would not be predicted to finish highe then 15th the last 8 years
my point was to argue the utter lack of talent to defend tomlin is foolish



Vegas odds have NOTHING to do with how good the roster is.

Again....take Big Ben off the roster and look at the talent each year. I gave you parameters to look at the rosters and evaluate the talent level as YOU see it. You of course don't do that and spout off about taking exception to my post while not listing all the players you thought were good, bad, or other.....and not supporting your own assertion that the talent was very good.

I did all the work. I gave links to every roster from each year, and they listed the starters, the entire roster, and all the stats......and you ignore all of it.

Great to see another dissatisfied customer bitching about something, yet can't break down the exact thing you are bitching about with all the facts right in front of you.

If you believe it's foolish....use the links to the rosters above and list all the talent that made them Super Bowl contenders each year. It's not hard.

[Born2Steel]

I can’t believe you guys still get pulled into pointless trolling wandering debates with munchy. There is no point to argue, it keeps moving. That’s his M.O.

[Shoes]

Aren't most head coaches delegators? Isn't that why there are so many specialty coaches under a head coach?

Yes, but some are more involved than others and some work harder than others. Just like any other profession.

[Hawkman]

I can’t believe you guys still get pulled into pointless trolling wandering debates with munchy. There is no point to argue, it keeps moving. That’s his M.O.

Is he gone yet.:eyebrows::chuckle:

[hawaiiansteeler]

I can’t believe you guys still get pulled into pointless trolling wandering debates with munchy. There is no point to argue, it keeps moving. That’s his M.O.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/af836d5952619c981a2f5457abcb0fb7/tenor.gif?itemid=12540411

[teegre]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JizzeERcZjg&app=desktop

[Hawkman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JizzeERcZjg&app=desktop

:deadhorse:

We have on of those.:chuckle:

[munchy]

Vegas odds have NOTHING to do with how good the roster is.

Again....take Big Ben off the roster and look at the talent each year. I gave you parameters to look at the rosters and evaluate the talent level as YOU see it. You of course don't do that and spout off about taking exception to my post while not listing all the players you thought were good, bad, or other.....and not supporting your own assertion that the talent was very good.

I did all the work. I gave links to every roster from each year, and they listed the starters, the entire roster, and all the stats......and you ignore all of it.

Great to see another dissatisfied customer bitching about something, yet can't break down the exact thing you are bitching about with all the facts right in front of you.

If you believe it's foolish....use the links to the rosters above and list all the talent that made them Super Bowl contenders each year. It's not hard.


lol.................here we go again.
before the start of the 2011 season did you tell everyone on the message boards(and anyone in person) that our team is totally void any talent(except for a player or 2)?
did you predict a few win season because of the lack of talent?
this was a team that went ot the super bowl, the previous year yet you want to defend tomlin by saying it had no talent. was dogshit
you havent presented any facts. you listed the roster..........bid deal
and i wont even go into debating what talent we had because you will make up some excuse to say they werent good.
if you look at the 2012 roster, you can plainly see tons of talent, some older, but still talented

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maybe some of you guys coming to his rescue to go thru the 2012 roster and point out all the dogshit that was on it...........ill wait for your answers

[Mojouw]

So if Devin Bush goes top 12 do I win a prize? Top 10, two prizes? Maybe ski-ball tokens? I've had my eyes on rasta penguin!

https://www.marinij.com/wp-content/uploads/migration/2015/201507/NEWS_150709926_AR_0_XJCGOXWGJUQX.jpg?w=620

[pczach]

lol.................here we go again.
before the start of the 2011 season did you tell everyone on the message boards(and anyone in person) that our team is totally void any talent(except for a player or 2)?
did you predict a few win season because of the lack of talent?
this was a team that went ot the super bowl, the previous year yet you want to defend tomlin by saying it had no talent. was dogshit
you havent presented any facts. you listed the roster..........bid deal
and i wont even go into debating what talent we had because you will make up some excuse to say they werent good.
if you look at the 2012 roster, you can plainly see tons of talent, some older, but still talented

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maybe some of you guys coming to his rescue to go thru the 2012 roster and point out all the dogshit that was on it...........ill wait for your answers


So you aren't going to debate the talent......what a surprise.

And just to mention the 2012 roster.....there was plenty of dogshit......30-something year old dogshit all over the roster. That's why it had to be replaced.

But hey....if you really think I need someone here to save me, maybe you could explain the old personnel, the players that replaced them, and any scheme changes......and what you thought about them at the time.

I await your answer with your deep understanding of all things football. Enlighten me.

[NCSteeler]

He’s a good coach...that’s it.

The bottom line for me is that he’s consistently underachieved with the offensive talent on his teams.

Franchise QB, franchise RB, franchise WR, all in their prime...with all of those, the playoff record is very disappointing.

Great motivator, a player’s coach who hasn’t gotten the most out of his roster. :noidea:

IMO his technical weaknesses (challenges, clock management) have improved but still are below par.

DISCLAIMER: These opinions are solely based on the “eye test” system of football evaluation.
No statistics, databases, charts were used.
:wink02:

Eye test, I like that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[teegre]

Eye test, I like that.

Have you read the book “Blink” by Malcolm Gladwell?

Basically, it talks about how our “eye test” and/or “gut reactions” are extremely accurate.

Humans take in an inordinate amount of info which we process with parts of our brains that we don’t even realize that we are using. (Some night call it the “sixth sense”.)

One of the examples was art critics. They presented art critics with a bunch of paintings; some fakes, some real. The critics were told to give their “blink” response. Likewise, they had art critics use any & all tools available to them to analyze real vs. fakes. Cutting to the chase: the “blink” responses were significantly more accurate than the analyzing was (which hovered around 50/50 accuracy... a coin flip, basically).

Anyway... it is a fascinating read.

[Mojouw]

Have you read the book “Blink” by Malcolm Gladwell?

Basically, it talks about how our “eye test” and/or “gut reactions” are extremely accurate.

Humans take in an inordinate amount of info which we process with parts of our brains that we don’t even realize that we are using. (Some night call it the “sixth sense”.)

One of the examples was art critics. They presented art critics with a bunch of paintings; some fakes, some real. The critics were told to give their “blink” response. Likewise, they had art critics use any & all tools available to them to analyze real vs. fakes. Cutting to the chase: the “blink” responses were significantly more accurate than the analyzing was (which hovered around 50/50 accuracy... a coin flip, basically).

Anyway... it is a fascinating read.

Interesting. This book says the total opposite:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow

Classic example is the following. “A bat and a ball cost $1.10 in total. The bat costs $1.00 more than the ball. How much does the ball cost?”

If you answered $.10 your fast thinking system 1 brain bits shouted down your slower thinking system 2 brain and arrived at the wrong answer.

https://www.psychologicalscience.org/publications/observer/obsonline/a-new-twist-on-a-classic-puzzle.html

Anyways, if you like Gladwell, check this book out. It's mind boogling how our brains work. Seems we take mental shortcuts without realizing it all the time.

[DesertSteel]

Have you read the book “Blink” by Malcolm Gladwell?

Basically, it talks about how our “eye test” and/or “gut reactions” are extremely accurate.

Humans take in an inordinate amount of info which we process with parts of our brains that we don’t even realize that we are using. (Some night call it the “sixth sense”.)

One of the examples was art critics. They presented art critics with a bunch of paintings; some fakes, some real. The critics were told to give their “blink” response. Likewise, they had art critics use any & all tools available to them to analyze real vs. fakes. Cutting to the chase: the “blink” responses were significantly more accurate than the analyzing was (which hovered around 50/50 accuracy... a coin flip, basically).

Anyway... it is a fascinating read.
Gladwell always has some interesting findings. I like his book Outliers. I need to check Blink out...

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Classic example is the following. “A bat and a ball cost $1.10 in total. The bat costs $1.00 more than the ball. How much does the ball cost?”

If you answered a dollar, your fast thinking system 1 brain bits shouted down your slower thinking system 2 brain and arrived at the wrong answer.

That's a fancy way of saying "you're dumb" lol

[Mojouw]

Gladwell always has some interesting findings. I like his book Outliers. I need to check Blink out...

- - - Updated - - -


That's a fancy way of saying "you're dumb" lol

Yes and no. Just that our brains suck at nuance and probability. They are giant pattern recognition machines that fill in gaps with information that isn't there, lie to us based on past precedent, and really don't understand odds.

Anyways, it is a fascinating book!

Also, in a classic example of what the book is talking about, I let a dollar get posted when I meant ten cents! Fixed it now!

[Dwinsgames]

1117039133652811777

[Edman]

1117039133652811777

The 2015 team was done in by injuries. They were better than 2016 in my eyes.

[teegre]

Interesting. This book says the total opposite:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow

Classic example is the following. “A bat and a ball cost $1.10 in total. The bat costs $1.00 more than the ball. How much does the ball cost?”

If you answered $.10 your fast thinking system 1 brain bits shouted down your slower thinking system 2 brain and arrived at the wrong answer.

https://www.psychologicalscience.org/publications/observer/obsonline/a-new-twist-on-a-classic-puzzle.html

Anyways, if you like Gladwell, check this book out. It's mind boogling how our brains work. Seems we take mental shortcuts without realizing it all the time.

Now I have my summer reading all lined up. :yup:

That example (brain teaser) is designed to take advantage of the flaws in our brains. I haven’t read the book, but I am guessing that there are times when one’s “brain 1 / blink brain” produces false answers (such as with math) and other times when it is deadly accurate (art, social interactions, sports... Polamalu leaping over the LOS).

btw: Brain teasers are one of my favorite things.

[Hawkman]

Now I have my summer reading all lined up. :yup:

That example (brain teaser) is designed to take advantage of the flaws in our brains. I haven’t read the book, but I am guessing that there are times when one’s “brain 1 / blink brain” produces false answers (such as with math) and other times when it is deadly accurate (art, social interactions, sports... Polamalu leaping over the LOS).

btw: Brain teasers are one of my favorite things.

I often sit down with a book and say to myself, “Today......I’m going to take advantage of the flaws in my brain”.:rofl2:

[Mojouw]

Now I have my summer reading all lined up. :yup:

That example (brain teaser) is designed to take advantage of the flaws in our brains. I haven’t read the book, but I am guessing that there are times when one’s “brain 1 / blink brain” produces false answers (such as with math) and other times when it is deadly accurate (art, social interactions, sports... Polamalu leaping over the LOS).

btw: Brain teasers are one of my favorite things.

I think you got it. I can not remember all the examples, but the fast blinky part of our brain is really useful for a ton of things. I mean, after all, it is basically what has kept the species alive over the past 5 million years or so.

This is a total tangent, but I kinda think the NFL is an example of both at the same time. The fast/blink part is where great plays come from and amazing athletic feats. It is also where grindingly frustrating hawt taaakes and bad scouting comes from. The slow/non-blinky part is where great scouting and innovative analysis and gameplanning comes from. Trouble is, the fast/blink part of our brain is really really loud and talkative!

The other thing the book talks a lot about how we just ignore things we don't or can't know. I know I do that all the time and it seems like NFL coaches and draft scouts do as well. "We can totally fix that guys footwork!" or "Dude has never played press coverage before, but he is tall and fast -- so it will totally work!"

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I often sit down with a book and say to myself, “Today......I’m going to take advantage of the flaws in my brain”.:rofl2:

THat's great stuff! Made me laugh out loud.

I did the audiobook version on my long commutes several days a week a few years back and learned that brain teasers are not conducive to attentive driving!

[Edman]

Interesting. This book says the total opposite:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow

Classic example is the following. “A bat and a ball cost $1.10 in total. The bat costs $1.00 more than the ball. How much does the ball cost?”

If you answered $.10 your fast thinking system 1 brain bits shouted down your slower thinking system 2 brain and arrived at the wrong answer.

https://www.psychologicalscience.org/publications/observer/obsonline/a-new-twist-on-a-classic-puzzle.html

Anyways, if you like Gladwell, check this book out. It's mind boogling how our brains work. Seems we take mental shortcuts without realizing it all the time.

The answer is that it is impossible. It makes no sense.

That's is a really good brain teaser. I actually did first answer .10.

[Hawkman]

I think you got it. I can not remember all the examples, but the fast blinky part of our brain is really useful for a ton of things. I mean, after all, it is basically what has kept the species alive over the past 5 million years or so.

This is a total tangent, but I kinda think the NFL is an example of both at the same time. The fast/blink part is where great plays come from and amazing athletic feats. It is also where grindingly frustrating hawt taaakes and bad scouting comes from. The slow/non-blinky part is where great scouting and innovative analysis and gameplanning comes from. Trouble is, the fast/blink part of our brain is really really loud and talkative!

The other thing the book talks a lot about how we just ignore things we don't or can't know. I know I do that all the time and it seems like NFL coaches and draft scouts do as well. "We can totally fix that guys footwork!" or "Dude has never played press coverage before, but he is tall and fast -- so it will totally work!"

- - - Updated - - -



THat's great stuff! Made me laugh out loud.



Forgot to mention......I rarely win:huh:

- - - Updated - - -


The answer is that it is impossible. It makes no sense.

That's is a really good brain teaser. I actually did first answer .10.

[munchy]

So you aren't going to debate the talent......what a surprise.

And just to mention the 2012 roster.....there was plenty of dogshit......30-something year old dogshit all over the roster. That's why it had to be replaced.

But hey....if you really think I need someone here to save me, maybe you could explain the old personnel, the players that replaced them, and any scheme changes......and what you thought about them at the time.

I await your answer with your deep understanding of all things football. Enlighten me.


lol.............the team had 7 pro bowlers on it. PLUS antonio brown, emanuel sanders, heath miller, larry foote, lawrence timmons, brett keisel, lamar woodley, ike taylor, casey hampton, jason worilds, david decastro, ramon foster, marcus gilbert, willie colon, cam heyward..................

consider yourself enlightened ....l:rofl2:

[pczach]

lol.............the team had 7 pro bowlers on it. PLUS antonio brown, emanuel sanders, heath miller, larry foote, lawrence timmons, brett keisel, lamar woodley, ike taylor, casey hampton, jason worilds, david decastro, ramon foster, marcus gilbert, willie colon, cam heyward..................

consider yourself enlightened ....l:rofl2:




As usual, you just avoid talking about actual football. You're a fraud with little football knowledge that likes to make smartass remarks rather than discussing real football, scheme, and technique.

I asked you to list players and to discuss changes in personnel and scheme changes. Way to dodge having an actual conversation about real football. All you do is avoid talking about the ins and outs of football by changing the discussion and ignoring stuff you don't understand. It doesn't make you look smart. It makes you look like an abrasive idiot.

I guess you're too busy stalking a member here about where Devin Bush is drafted to try to embarrass him....You've been acting like a clown since you got here, so I'm not surprised. If you want to continue to pretend that you know everything, and try to belittle anyone that doesn't agree with you to make yourself feel smart......have at it. The problem is that you're the only one that thinks you are crushing people here. It's pretty sad.

[munchy]

As usual, you just avoid talking about actual football. You're a fraud with little football knowledge that likes to make smartass remarks rather than discussing real football, scheme, and technique.

I asked you to list players and to discuss changes in personnel and scheme changes. Way to dodge having an actual conversation about real football. All you do is avoid talking about the ins and outs of football by changing the discussion and ignoring stuff you don't understand. It doesn't make you look smart. It makes you look like an abrasive idiot.

I guess you're too busy stalking a member here about where Devin Bush is drafted to try to embarrass him....You've been acting like a clown since you got here, so I'm not surprised. If you want to continue to pretend that you know everything, and try to belittle anyone that doesn't agree with you to make yourself feel smart......have at it. The problem is that you're the only one that thinks you are crushing people here. It's pretty sad.


nice try. its people like you who run their mouth and then cant back it up, (just like the bush fan) are the issues here.
you make an idiotic statement to defend tomlin then when i call you out on it you change the narrative, just like the bush fanboy.
you said the roster was dogshit. you asked me to list the players that i didnt consider 'dogshit'. now you change the narrative and act as if the discussion was about changes in personnel; and scheme.
it appears that you fanboys take the low road and try to insult my 'football' knowledge when you get your feelings hurt. the ones that start the belittling are you guys, all you have to do is go back and read the threads and see who started the name calling.......pretty simple

so, why dont you dispute the players that i said werent dogshit and you go ahead and tell me what ones you think are.....just like your original claim........lets see that football, knowledge of yours

[Mojouw]

Where did I call you a name? I told you to read better draft sites...but that is far from a personal attack. I likely did call you a name somewhere or other, but I don't know its the internet -- get over it?

However, you seem to want to make this personal. Like it appears to be a goal in each of your posts to specifically needle people in order to drag them into a personal argument. I have, in the past, popped off at people on this board on a personal level -- and later I always feel bad. I'm gonna try to avoid it here, but you are making it so hard.

If you really want to get back into the Bush stuff, we can. I'm not even sure I'm totally in support of the Steelers making that pick if he is on the board. I'm struggling with say, Bush versus Greedy or even a TE or WR at 1.20. But, assume we want to say that if he is there, Bush should be the pick...raises an interesting series of questions:

1. Are there going to be enough QBs, WRs, and RBs taken to push Bush down the draft into the low teens and early 20's?
2. Do teams like the OTs enough to load up on them and pass on LBs?
3. With a deep edge rusher and DL class compared to a shallow ILB and CB class, does that make ILBs and CBs go higher than they might due to scarcity?

There are others as well, but those are the highlights of a discussion about where any given prospect will or will not be picked. Do you have actually coherent english language full sentence thoughts on those questions or do you just have word salad cobbled together from draft sites?

[Mojouw]

Also, I get to post this again - -CLASSIC!

https://theelephantgun.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/haley-iroc.jpg

[munchy]

Where did I call you a name? I told you to read better draft sites...but that is far from a personal attack. I likely did call you a name somewhere or other, but I don't know its the internet -- get over it?

However, you seem to want to make this personal. Like it appears to be a goal in each of your posts to specifically needle people in order to drag them into a personal argument. I have, in the past, popped off at people on this board on a personal level -- and later I always feel bad. I'm gonna try to avoid it here, but you are making it so hard.

If you really want to get back into the Bush stuff, we can. I'm not even sure I'm totally in support of the Steelers making that pick if he is on the board. I'm struggling with say, Bush versus Greedy or even a TE or WR at 1.20. But, assume we want to say that if he is there, Bush should be the pick...raises an interesting series of questions:

1. Are there going to be enough QBs, WRs, and RBs taken to push Bush down the draft into the low teens and early 20's?
2. Do teams like the OTs enough to load up on them and pass on LBs?
3. With a deep edge rusher and DL class compared to a shallow ILB and CB class, does that make ILBs and CBs go higher than they might due to scarcity?

There are others as well, but those are the highlights of a discussion about where any given prospect will or will not be picked. Do you have actually coherent english language full sentence thoughts on those questions or do you just have word salad cobbled together from draft sites?


but yet you cant figure out how im the one trying to make it personal..............:frusty:

[Mojouw]

[/B]

but yet you cant figure out how im the one trying to make it personal..............:frusty:

Fine. I'm the jerk. Whatever. The question still stands, do you have detailed thoughts to share in an ongoing conversation or simply repetition of previous statements?

I've offered that in a weak CB, QB, And LB class against a deep pass rusher and WR cohort, guys like Greedy, Bush, and White will go higher than their "grade" as teams attempt to ensure they grab one of the prized players at high value positions.

You have yet to counter that opinion with much of your own opinion. That's all I'm asking.

Again, if you can't take a few potshots while debating on the internet, I don't know what to say.

[munchy]

Fine. I'm the jerk. Whatever. The question still stands, do you have detailed thoughts to share in an ongoing conversation or simply repetition of previous statements?

I've offered that in a weak CB, QB, And LB class against a deep pass rusher and WR cohort, guys like Greedy, Bush, and White will go higher than their "grade" as teams attempt to ensure they grab one of the prized players at high value positions.

You have yet to counter that opinion with much of your own opinion. That's all I'm asking.

Again, if you can't take a few potshots while debating on the internet, I don't know what to say.

yet you continue to call me out for taking shots...............once again:frusty:

[Mojouw]

yet you continue to call me out for taking shots...............once again:frusty:

Once again, you dodge the direct and specific question in favor of a vague allegation.

If you need an apology, you can have one. It doesn't bother me in the least to offer it. If I've somehow offended you, sorry.

With that out of the way, do you care to address the actual question?

[pczach]

nice try. its people like you who run their mouth and then cant back it up, (just like the bush fan) are the issues here.
you make an idiotic statement to defend tomlin then when i call you out on it you change the narrative, just like the bush fanboy.
you said the roster was dogshit. you asked me to list the players that i didnt consider 'dogshit'. now you change the narrative and act as if the discussion was about changes in personnel; and scheme.
it appears that you fanboys take the low road and try to insult my 'football' knowledge when you get your feelings hurt. the ones that start the belittling are you guys, all you have to do is go back and read the threads and see who started the name calling.......pretty simple

so, why dont you dispute the players that i said werent dogshit and you go ahead and tell me what ones you think are.....just like your original claim........lets see that football, knowledge of yours



I mention how you're treating someone else here and you immediately start ragging again, even though he's not part of this attempt at a conversation.

Way to stay classy and show what a standup guy you are. :coffee:

Let us know when you actually start talking about football instead of acting the fool. If not, you'll eventually be thought of as an annoyance here, and it will be just like all the other message boards where you are despised and everyone thinks you're a jerk when they interact with you.

People here warned me about even trying to discuss anything with you, but I try to only judge people on how they interact with me....not on what other people say about their experiences with you. People even brought up that they now have to deal with you at this message board because they can't stand you at the other board where they listen to your act.

When that many people are saying that, you would think that maybe you would do a little self assessment, and come to the conclusion that maybe you need to change some things in your approach so that people want to talk to you. You go the other way with it and double down.

We're all hoping you're just a young kid that hasn't figured it out yet, because it's hard to imagine a grown man acting like a child and saying and doing some of the stuff you have posted in your short time here.

Trying to belittle another member here by putting his quote in your signature because you disagreed with him about a player coming out of the draft that you don't seem to know much about?

Think about that for a second. Does that sound like someone you would want to talk to and discuss anything with?

[munchy]

I mention how you're treating someone else here and you immediately start ragging again, even though he's not part of this attempt at a conversation.

Way to stay classy and show what a standup guy you are. :coffee:

Let us know when you actually start talking about football instead of acting the fool. If not, you'll eventually be thought of as an annoyance here, and it will be just like all the other message boards where you are despised and everyone thinks you're a jerk when they interact with you.

People here warned me about even trying to discuss anything with you, but I try to only judge people on how they interact with me....not on what other people say about their experiences with you. People even brought up that they now have to deal with you at this message board because they can't stand you at the other board where they listen to your act.

When that many people are saying that, you would think that maybe you would do a little self assessment, and come to the conclusion that maybe you need to change some things in your approach so that people want to talk to you. You go the other way with it and double down.

We're all hoping you're just a young kid that hasn't figured it out yet, because it's hard to imagine a grown man acting like a child and saying and doing some of the stuff you have posted in your short time here.

Trying to belittle another member here by putting his quote in your signature because you disagreed with him about a player coming out of the draft that you don't seem to know much about?

Think about that for a second. Does that sound like someone you would want to talk to and discuss anything with?


so is this where i am suppose to take the high road and change my ways while you guys continue to insult me by saying im a fool, dont know football, say im a little kid etc etc etc?

i'll even start by removing the signature. lets see how you guys act now....

[Mojouw]

Ok. I will play. Here is a summary version of how I see the "value" in the first round of the draft:

1. Offense and defense have fought to a stalemate along the boundary in the secondary. Big plays can be be had if you have a good enough QB to fit the ball into the windows along the sideline and a talented enough WR to fight through the coverage to get to the ball. But, defenses can scheme around a good deal of that - hence you can get away with starting Coty Sensabaugh on the outside.

2. Offenses are now making their living between the hashes in the short and intermediate zones. They are stressing defenses horizontally at the same time as they flood them vertically. It is pulling LBs into deeper coverages than they would like and making safeties and nickel corners make "no win" choices. Additionally, the spread and RPO concepts filtering into the NFL are showing offenses how to isolate a particular defender in a match-up you should win every time (LBer on slot WR, TE on smaller nickel CB, etc) much like basketball does.

3. As a result, defenses are now placing a priority on two things - pass rush from the front 4 and 3 down LBs that are equally comfortable stopping the run as they are defending the pass down the field. To see the dramatic impact of these types of players, look at how Atlanta's defense fell apart when Neal (a safety, but played an important part in defending the middle) and Jones went down. Or look at the pre-Shazier Steelers defense versus the post-Shazier defense. I truly believe that if Shazier doesn't get hurt, that team makes a SB and Shazier might have played his way to a DPOY award. Another excellent example is how the Cowboys blunted the Saints attack with how they used LVE and Smith as hunter-killers in the middle of their defense. Or look at how Derwin James was instantly able to emerge as an highly impactful player only a few games into his rookie season. The fact that the Steelers and others teams valued Edmunds as highly as they did when most of the draft "experts" did not is another piece of evidence pointing towards how strong NFL teams are looking for these middle of the field flexible defenders.

What is my point? Defensive players that can dictate things to the offense (instead of merely responding) from the middle of the field are becoming more important than in the recent past where the game was played mostly on the edges. So DT that can generate pressure regardless of scheme, LBs that can play all 3 downs and impact at all 3 levels of the defense, and safeties that can flourish as anything from a "dimebacker" to a deep centerfielder are coveted chess pieces. In the current draft you have 2 guys that stand out at LB from all the rest based on pedigree and testing numbers -- White and Bush. I think as a result of all of the above combined with the "lack" (who knows if it is real, but I think teams think it is) of these impact LBs in the rest of the class, both guys will go higher than an objective grade might have them.

You, I believe, do not think that to be the case. If I have things correct, what do you think will be the "trend" in the draft? Pas rushers? OT's? WRs? Additionally, if Bush is NOT a top 10, 12, or even 15 prospect -- should the Steelers shy away from picking him even if he is on the board at #20? Are their other guys that they should be hoping fall to them rather than Bush?

[munchy]

i actually agree with every ting you have said regarding the defensive players that can dictate things to the offense. i also agree that white and bush have set themselves apart from the rest of the ilbs but dont believe either is worth trading our 2nd and third rounder or both 3rd rounders to get them.
demand is high and supply is low this year for those ilb types
i dont think there will be any trend different than the previous years. teams will still draft the way the always do. the qb needy teams will reach for one. some will draft for need, some bpa and most will draft bpa at a position of need. i see lots of wrs and rbs being available in rounds 3-5. so i dont see a need for us to grab one the first few rounds.
although our cbs look to be in place for this year, it looks as tho our spot at #20 is prime for an elite cb.
i dont think bush falls to 20 but if he does i would be happy to draft him.
IMO, we need an ilb, olb, cb, wr, dt, te, rb.........basically in that order.
and i see ilb as the number 1 need to be a starter this year on the defense

id like to see these guys fall, hockenson, ferrell, burns, wilkins, gary........

i agree that matchups are huge but dont believe there are that many qbs that can really do it consistently.
if i thought this team was a impact defender or two away from being elite, i could buy into going all in this draft, but i feel there are too many areas that need to be addressed

[Mojouw]

i actually agree with every ting you have said regarding the defensive players that can dictate things to the offense. i also agree that white and bush have set themselves apart from the rest of the ilbs but dont believe either is worth trading our 2nd and third rounder or both 3rd rounders to get them.
demand is high and supply is low this year for those ilb types
i dont think there will be any trend different than the previous years. teams will still draft the way the always do. the qb needy teams will reach for one. some will draft for need, some bpa and most will draft bpa at a position of need. i see lots of wrs and rbs being available in rounds 3-5. so i dont see a need for us to grab one the first few rounds.
although our cbs look to be in place for this year, it looks as tho our spot at #20 is prime for an elite cb.
i dont think bush falls to 20 but if he does i would be happy to draft him.
IMO, we need an ilb, olb, cb, wr, dt, te, rb.........basically in that order.
and i see ilb as the number 1 need to be a starter this year on the defense

id like to see these guys fall, hockenson, ferrell, burns, wilkins, gary........

i agree that matchups are huge but dont believe there are that many qbs that can really do it consistently.
if i thought this team was a impact defender or two away from being elite, i could buy into going all in this draft, but i feel there are too many areas that need to be addressed

Ok. Solid thoughts. So where was the initial pushback against Bush going high? High value defender in short supply - that to me has top 12 pick written all over. Steelers would have to get ahead of teams 11-15 to ensure they get him, so hence my original thought he goes really high.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[munchy]

Ok. Solid thoughts. So where was the initial pushback against Bush going high? High value defender in short supply - that to me has top 12 pick written all over. Steelers would have to get ahead of teams 11-15 to ensure they get him, so hence my original thought he goes really high.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

thanks.
my initial push back was you saying bush was the most prized player that wasnt a qb, edge or lt and that you had several draft sites having him go top 10.
it went south from there when i simply asked you to provide those sites

[Mojouw]

thanks.
my initial push back was you saying bush was the most prized player that wasnt a qb, edge or lt and that you had several draft sites having him go top 10.
it went south from there when i simply asked you to provide those sites

I still stand by that statement. Bush and White are the Crown Jewels of the LB class and I believe they will go top 10-12.

[munchy]

I still stand by that statement. Bush and White are the Crown Jewels of the LB class and I believe they will go top 10-12.


i guess we will find out shortly whether bush gets picked before white and any other position other than qb, edge and lt.

[polamalubeast]

When Cowher players left (like Farrior, Aaron Smith, Hines Ward), the culture of this team has never been the same

Of course, it may not be all his fault but if the locker room is still toxic in the next 2-3 years, it's going to be time for a change.

The steelers had maybe as much talent in this decade as the steelers had in the 2000s(2004 to 2010) but the results were not the same because of a very toxic lockroom.

Also, my other problem is on the games against the bad teams (especially against the raiders) and when they are in the west .... the focus of this team has often been very mediocre, but maybe if the steelers have less drama that will help ... let's see.

[polamalubeast]

8-8 in 2012 and 2013 is not a great accomplishment even if our roster was old or not very good.

Just look at 2013, our roster was not very good, but still better than the roster that the New York Jets under Rex Ryan had in the same year .... The Jets finished at 8-8 too.

Also, 3 times under Tomlin (2009,2013 and 2018) that a loss against a very weak raiders team has cost us the playoffs ..... it's not acceptable!

[polamalubeast]

The thing is only one team can win it every year, and when you have an all time franchise in your conference it's tough. Look how Shula with Unitas couldn't win because of Lombardi. For that matter how was it Shula only made one SB with Marino? Those great Raiders teams of the 70's ,hall of famers all over the roster, only won 1 SB in that era because of the Steelers. The Chargers with Fouts and K. Winslow never won anything. George Allen, great coach never won the big one. Took Landry 11 years to finally win one.

I've got problems with some of the things Tomlin does. But at the same token I'm not sure who is out there that would be better?

The Patriots are not a excuse when your team has only lost once against them in the playoffs since our last super bowl.

[Six Rings]

Over rated head coaches? Tomlin should rate.