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Dwinsgames
03-15-2019, 01:19 PM
round table on Tomlin / Steelers


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steelreserve
03-15-2019, 01:31 PM
I don't think there's much arguing that there has been way too much extracurricular bullshit going on the last couple years, and it has progressed from the standard "distraction" that every team has and doesn't really do anything, to stuff that is really hurting the team's ability to be competitive.

How much of that is the coach's fault, versus a couple of individual diva players just being jerks? I dont know. As far as coaching, I'm much more concerned about things like sub-par player development and the same defensive problems over and over, which there can be no mistake are coaching-related.

Of course, this shit doesn't help his cause, but that's different from saying he IS the cause.

If Tomlin was otherwise a rock-solid coach that didn't have those other issues, I guess you could chalk this up to bad luck .. But those two problems on their own are likely going to keep us from winning any more championships in the near future. So fine, fuck it, throw the diva mess on the pile if it helps begin the process of changing that.

Rooney / Colbert will never fire Tomlin, though. The AB mess has made it clear there's not half a backbone between the two of them.

Fire Goodell
03-15-2019, 01:32 PM
Perhaps, but you can't put the AB and Bell thing on Tomlin.

Tomlin didn't make Bell do rap songs saying he wanted a huge payday, we all seen this coming.
Tomlin didn't make AB go nuts and throw a couch off the balcony, or want to back out of his contract for a huge payday

I do think he should have punished AB harder for that facebook live video in the locker room. In no way is BS like that acceptable. At the same time, what do you do, he's your best player outside of Ben, and you're in the AFC Championship game. What are they gonna do, suspend him and shoot their chances of winning? I know people are gonna say Billy B. benched Malcolm Butler in the SB, but we can mostly agree that AB is a great player on the field, Butler was just good. I guess this is where I'm glad I'm not the coach, either decision you make you'll get raked over the coals by the fans.

Money just does things to some people. One year Bell was tweeting that he loves the game and doesn't play for money, next thing you know he's rapping about not signing a contract unless they give him 15 mil.

Shoes
03-15-2019, 01:34 PM
Like I said Rooney, Colbert, and Tomlin are of the same mind. When you only have people around you who are like-minded, your ideas are going to be very similar. What is needed is someone with different ideas, different perspectives and different ways of approaching and solving problems. Instead, you have the 3 amigos, Rooney, Colbert and Tomlin, then you have the good old buddies from days of future past, Tomlin, Butler, and Fitch. I expect very little change.

Born2Steel
03-15-2019, 01:48 PM
I’m neither in agreement nor disagreement. There are definitely some head scratching moments these past few seasons on and off the field. Truth is I don’t know how much or how little each was directly influenced by Tomlin. What I do know is personnel-wise there have been serious issues that this coaching staff have done an excellent job navigating. Just listing the obvious ones everybody knows like Martavious, Ladarious, Bell, AB, Gilbert, Burnett, Ridley, and probably a few others not listed. With all these clowns doing their own individual clown acts or just not available as planned, the Steelers were one damn win away from repeating as division champs. Like I said Tomlin has his faults but job number one is put guys in position to win. Tomlin does that better than 99% of the other HCs in the league.

hawaiiansteeler
03-15-2019, 05:00 PM
Report: Tomlin told players Brown will be gone when his production goes down

Posted by Michael David Smith on January 25, 2019

Mike Tomlin has reportedly been telling Steelers players for years that he’ll tolerate wide receiver Antonio Brown only so long as he’s playing at an All-Pro level.

A new report from ESPN says that Tomlin was sick and tired of Brown’s chronic tardiness, and told other players it would be addressed — just as soon as Brown stopped playing like one of the best wide receivers in football.

“[Tomlin] essentially told the group, we’ll tolerate it now because of what he brings on the field, but the minute production stops, you don’t overlook it,” one unnamed ex-Steeler said.

If that’s the case, it was foolish of the Steelers to give Brown the four-year, $68 million extension he got two years ago. If the Steelers were already preparing for a time when Brown became more trouble than he was worth, they shouldn’t have given him a big new deal that made him more expensive — and harder to move on from once they decided they couldn’t take it anymore.

But ESPN says it has confirmed with nearly 20 current or former Steelers that it’s been an ongoing problem with Brown, and that the team always knew it wasn’t going to last long.

to read rest of article:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/01/25/report-tomlin-told-players-brown-will-be-gone-when-his-production-goes-down/

Shoes
03-15-2019, 05:04 PM
Tomlin is a politician not a coach. He's got the #1 skill of one. Bullshit

EzraTank
03-15-2019, 06:18 PM
Perhaps, but you can't put the AB and Bell thing on Tomlin.

Tomlin didn't make Bell do rap songs saying he wanted a huge payday, we all seen this coming.
Tomlin didn't make AB go nuts and throw a couch off the balcony, or want to back out of his contract for a huge payday

I do think he should have punished AB harder for that facebook live video in the locker room. In no way is BS like that acceptable. At the same time, what do you do, he's your best player outside of Ben, and you're in the AFC Championship game. What are they gonna do, suspend him and shoot their chances of winning? I know people are gonna say Billy B. benched Malcolm Butler in the SB, but we can mostly agree that AB is a great player on the field, Butler was just good. I guess this is where I'm glad I'm not the coach, either decision you make you'll get raked over the coals by the fans.

Money just does things to some people. One year Bell was tweeting that he loves the game and doesn't play for money, next thing you know he's rapping about not signing a contract unless they give him 15 mil.

No he didn't directly but that's like saying a parent isn't partially responsible for raising a total douche bag kid. In a way they are. Tomlin allowed the two of them to get away with things far too long. Ben as well. Do you really think Belichick would have stood for these two morons LIVE streaming in the locker room? I know you mentioned this but I really think Belichick would have benched the two of them for the first quarter (it wasn't the AFC Championship game is was the divisional round).

Tomlin better use this opportunity to tighten the ship down. He simply has to stop being their friend and instead be their coach regardless of who they are. They also say a successful parent isn't their kids' friend but instead their parent first.

Fire Goodell
03-15-2019, 06:21 PM
No he didn't directly but that's like saying a parent isn't partially responsible for raising a total douche bag kid. In a way they are. Tomlin allowed the two of them to get away with things far too long. Ben as well. Do you really think Belichick would have stood for these two morons LIVE streaming in the locker room?

Tomlin better use this opportunity to tighten the ship down. He simply has to stop being their friend and instead be their coach regardless of who they are. They also say a successful parent isn't their kids' friend but instead their parent first.

Yeah I agree with that, I've always thought he was a bit too friendly with the good players on the team. And the AB / Bell relationship was irreparable by now, after getting rid of them, it's given him another opportunity to right the ship. If he blows it again he should be gone.

DesertSteel
03-15-2019, 06:23 PM
I’ve been saying it for years and am on record that Tomlin is all bravado but in reality lacks confrontational skills. After a while, this demeanor gets exposed.

86WARD
03-15-2019, 06:27 PM
First of all, LB was never a problem child. He got wrapped up with Blount and that was it. One time offense. Young, made a mistake, was never a locker room problem. He was guilty of trying to build a “brand”. He made bad rap music instead of selling cupcakes or buying real estate or running a farm. He wanted more money, held out, went about it the wrong way and lost money. He was never in a category with AB.

AB on the other hand was treated special, treated differently from other players, went from a humble, everybody loves him type of guy to a full fledged five alarm diva. This guy was sworn up and down by fans to be the greatest thing since pierogies! Then somewhere it totally went sideways. Tomlin and the front office TOTALLY threw gasoline on that fire by treating him differently. He should’ve been humbled by the team from the first sight of wanting special treatment and Tomlin botched that worse than Boswells infamous onside kick attempt. These guys go to training camp to bond and this guy gets his own house? Dafuq does Tomlin let that happen? You can’t say that these guys didn’t contribute to AB turning diva.

86WARD
03-15-2019, 06:31 PM
Tomlin needs to start going more by the rule book. I mentioned the story in another thread where he did it after the losing streak that started in Miami and he was strict and by the book. The team went on to lose four games in a row and then Tomlin buckled down and the team rattled off 9 wins and lost to the Patriots in the conference championship. That Tomlin need to be present... not the players friend Tomlin.

munchy
03-15-2019, 07:23 PM
ive said it for ten years now, tomlin won with cowhers players.
that group had talent and veteran leadership. im sure tomlin brought in a new, positive vibe that rejuvenates teams that have heard the same ol stuff every year
tomlion has had more than enough talent the past 4-5 years to win a super bowl but he doesnt have the leadership from the players. he lacks the leadership, X's and O's and his speil that was refreshing 12 years ago is beyond stale. tomlins ego of being better than anyone has rubbed off on the team. i think that why we play down to terrible teams. he thinks they can just out of the field and win without putting i the effort. he has become complacent and so has the team
i truly feel almost any coach could have come to pittsburgh and had his success. maybe not as well in the regular season but the post season has be pathetic the last 8 years
its way past time for a new voice

st33lersguy
03-15-2019, 07:58 PM
Coaching and management are part of the problem. James Harrison was cut, they unloaded Bryant yet problems and distractions remained. And coaching and management have been problems holding the team back in recent years in general. Excited to be "cancer free" without bell and a.b.? Too bad the f.o. Is essentially wasting the first year cancer free to continue operating under the misguided belief that Keith butler is a viable option as d.c. and the other coaches that remained have underperformed. 2015-16 drafts have yielded little to nothing as had the players they recently signed as free agents/traded for in the last few years not named Joe Haden (they wasted a draft pick on Justin Gilbert for crying out loud). And then art wants to sit back and somehow say that there isn't drama because they almost won the division after t taking a big lead into late November (a sentiment parroted by the gm)? And they then retain a multitude of not just shirty coaches but also players (Danny smith retained, bud Dupree gets $9.2 mil, chickillo gets $4 mil). Front office and coaching have definitely contributed to this teams inability to take advantage of a week afc and aside from letting bell go and unloading Brown while simultaneously getting played like a fiddle by both brown and the raiders, nothing appears to have changed

hawaiiansteeler
03-15-2019, 08:03 PM
ive said it for ten years now, tomlin won with cowhers players.


and Cowher only won one Super Bowl in 16 years with Cowher's players, I wonder why that was since they were so good? :noidea:

vasteeler
03-15-2019, 08:22 PM
ive said it for ten years now, tomlin won with cowhers players.


And Cowher only won with Rooney's Quarterback

munchy
03-15-2019, 08:25 PM
and Cowher only won one Super Bowl in 16 years with Cowher's players, I wonder why that was since they were so good? :noidea:

wonder how many he would have won with a HOF qb his entire time?

teegre
03-15-2019, 08:26 PM
Bill Belichick won his first three Super Bowls with Pete Carroll’s players.

And... with videotape.

munchy
03-15-2019, 08:26 PM
And Cowher only won with Rooney's Quarterback

yup, too bad rooney didnt realize earlier that he needed a HOF qb

hawaiiansteeler
03-15-2019, 08:33 PM
yup, too bad rooney didnt realize earlier that he needed a HOF qb

Dan Rooney did realize it which is why he overruled Cowher who wanted to pick OL Shawn Andrews instead of Big Ben.

https://steelersdepot.com/2017/04/friendly-reminder-dan-rooney-reason-pittsburgh-drafted-roethlisberger/

munchy
03-15-2019, 08:36 PM
Bill Belichick won his first three Super Bowls with Pete Carroll’s players.

And... with videotape.

and has dominated with his owns player the last 15 years, even when they had inferior talent. went to 6 , won 3

- - - Updated - - -


Dan Rooney did realize it which is why he overruled Cowher who wanted to pick OL Shawn Andrews instead of Big Ben.

https://steelersdepot.com/2017/04/friendly-reminder-dan-rooney-reason-pittsburgh-drafted-roethlisberger/


thats what i said. rooney should have drafted a HOF qb earlier in cowhers career instead of giving him trash to work with

hawaiiansteeler
03-15-2019, 08:37 PM
thats what i said. rooney should have drafted a HOF qb earlier in cowhers career instead of giving him trash to work with

maybe Cowher should have valued the QB position more...

munchy
03-15-2019, 08:42 PM
maybe Cowher should have valued the QB position more...


who should he have drafted?

hawaiiansteeler
03-15-2019, 08:44 PM
who should he have drafted?

'it was Bill Cowher at head coach, who never really seemed to value the quarterback position the way it is today.

Cowher admitted it years later in an interview, talking about his strategy of playing stout defense and running the football. “I don’t know if you can win a championship like that”, he said. “We did that for many years and fell short without a quarterback”.'

https://steelersdepot.com/2017/04/friendly-reminder-dan-rooney-reason-pittsburgh-drafted-roethlisberger/

munchy
03-15-2019, 08:49 PM
'it was Bill Cowher at head coach, who never really seemed to value the quarterback position the way it is today.

Cowher admitted it years later in an interview, talking about his strategy of playing stout defense and running the football. “I don’t know if you can win a championship like that”, he said. “We did that for many years and fell short without a quarterback”.'

https://steelersdepot.com/2017/04/friendly-reminder-dan-rooney-reason-pittsburgh-drafted-roethlisberger/


ok, who should he have drafted?

teegre
03-15-2019, 08:51 PM
who should he have drafted?

Drew Brees :noidea:

hawaiiansteeler
03-15-2019, 08:52 PM
ok, who should he have drafted?

don't try to change the subject because you're losing the argument.

you said Tomlin only won because of Cowher's players. do you mean the same ones that had a 6-7 playoff record under Cowher and went 8-8 the year before Tomlin took over?

munchy
03-15-2019, 08:53 PM
Drew Brees :noidea:


yup, thats the only good/great qb that cowher could have drafted

teegre
03-15-2019, 08:54 PM
yup, thats the only good/great qb that cowher could have drafted

True... Tom Brady isn’t good, let alone great.

hawaiiansteeler
03-15-2019, 08:55 PM
yup, thats the only good/great qb that cowher could have drafted

Tom Brady? :noidea:

munchy
03-15-2019, 08:58 PM
don't try to change the subject because you're losing the argument.

you said Tomlin only won because of Cowher's players. do you mean the same ones that had a 6-7 playoff record under Cowher and went 8-8 the year before Tomlin took over?


lol.............losing, i just won
you said cowher didnt value the qb position.
i then asked you who he should have drafted if he indeed valued the position.
you could easily win this argument if you list all of the great qbs that cowher passed over..........pretty simple really

- - - Updated - - -


Tom Brady? :noidea:

yup, i sixth rounder that everybody passed on 5 times...................seems like no coach valued him

teegre
03-15-2019, 08:58 PM
lol.............losing, i just won
you said cowher didnt value the qb position.
i then asked you who he should have drafted if he indeed valued the position.
you could easily win this argument if you list all of the great qbs that cowher passed over..........pretty simple really

Cowher only needed one... why would he need both Brees and Brady???

hawaiiansteeler
03-15-2019, 08:58 PM
lol.............losing, i just won
you said cowher didnt value the qb position.
i then asked you who he should have drafted if he indeed valued the position.
you could easily win this argument if you list all of the great qbs that cowher passed over..........pretty simple really

looks like I'm playing chess with a 5th grader here...

teegre
03-15-2019, 09:00 PM
looks like I'm playing chess with a 5th grader here...

Yea, but every time you set up the board, he tips it over and screams, “EARTHQUAKE!!!”

munchy
03-15-2019, 09:00 PM
looks like I'm playing chess with a 5th grader here...


nice try, but big fail. thanks for playing tho

hawaiiansteeler
03-15-2019, 09:03 PM
nice try, but big fail. thanks for playing tho

I hereby dub thee "Strawman"

https://i0.wp.com/www.skepticalraptor.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/strawman-argument.jpg?fit=750%2C600&ssl=1

teegre
03-15-2019, 09:03 PM
Cowher could have traded for any number of QBs... specifically, Brett Favre.

But, he didn’t.

hawaiiansteeler
03-15-2019, 09:04 PM
Cowher could have traded for any number of QBs... specifically, Brett Favre.

But, he didn’t.

are you attempting to introduce logic here?

teegre
03-15-2019, 09:06 PM
are you attempting to introduce logic here?

As long as there isn’t any math...

vasteeler
03-15-2019, 09:07 PM
Cowher could have traded for any number of QBs... specifically, Brett Favre.

But, he didn’t.

Why would he do that when he had the mighty Kent Graham, Mike tomczak, Kordell Stewart etc etc

munchy
03-15-2019, 09:09 PM
lol................now 2 are grasping.
since when do coaches made trades?

- - - Updated - - -

why doesnt tomlin trade for every player that makes pro bowl every year?

teegre
03-15-2019, 09:13 PM
lol................now 2 are grasping.
since when do coaches made trades?

Exactly... they were NOT Cowher’s players. They were Colbert’s players. Colbert drafted them and/or signed them as free agents and/or traded for them.

:hatsoff:

vasteeler
03-15-2019, 09:15 PM
:pop2:

teegre
03-15-2019, 09:18 PM
Why would he do that when he had the mighty Kent Graham, Mike tomczak, Kordell Stewart etc etc

I’m still pissed that Kordell didn’t remain as Slash. He would have been a HOFer.

munchy
03-15-2019, 09:18 PM
Exactly... they were NOT Cowher’s players. They were Colbert’s players. Colbert drafted them and/or signed them as free agents and/or traded for them.

:hatsoff:


then why did you say cowher should have traded for favre.......................hmmm, sorry i knocked you off your square. have a good night

vasteeler
03-15-2019, 09:20 PM
I’m still pissed that Kordell didn’t remain as Slash. He would have been a HOFer.

I have always said the same exact thing. He ruined his legacy trying to be a full time QB.

teegre
03-15-2019, 09:21 PM
then why did you say cowher should have traded for favre.......................hmmm, sorry i knocked you off your square. have a good night

Because, you said that they were “Cowher’s” players. I’m simply replying to your original assertion. :noidea:

And, you said: “who should he have drafted?” Again, I’m replying to your post about Cowher. :huh:

Then, you suddenly say: “since wen do coaches make trades?”

SUMMATION:
It’s okay to move the goalposts. I can debate it either way you want.

Michael
03-15-2019, 09:29 PM
Tomlin is a politician not a coach. He's got the #1 skill of one. Bullshit

That's it. pure and simple.

teegre
03-15-2019, 09:31 PM
Tomlin is a politician not a coach. He's got the #1 skill of one: orange hair

:toofunny:

Shoes
03-15-2019, 09:39 PM
:toofunny:


:lol:

Craic
03-16-2019, 01:40 AM
I’m still pissed that Kordell didn’t remain as Slash. He would have been a HOFer.

Ain't that the truth. The first true multi-tool player in the NFL on offense to play at the level he played at in all three positions (QB, RB, WR). It's only when he switched to pure QB that he became average because now, he gets compared to all the other QBs.

Michael
03-16-2019, 09:09 AM
Tomlin is a politician not a coach. He's got the #1 skill of one. Bullshit

So true ,,so obvious . It amazes me that more people don't see this reality. He is really getting away his show.

EzraTank
03-16-2019, 09:16 AM
and Cowher only won one Super Bowl in 16 years with Cowher's players, I wonder why that was since they were so good? :noidea:And please give me a list of the starting QBs Cowher had? If Ben came along earlier he wins a lot more than one.

Born2Steel
03-16-2019, 09:33 AM
Can we just clone Ben already and sign him to a multi-life time contract? We can rebuild him. We have the technology.

DesertSteel
03-16-2019, 09:36 AM
Can we just clone Ben already and sign him to a multi-life time contract? We can rebuild him. We have the technology.
If Ben wins a third ring he likely is considered top 10 all time. It’s not going to be easy. Brady retiring will certainly help.

munchy
03-16-2019, 09:47 AM
Because, you said that they were “Cowher’s” players. I’m simply replying to your original assertion. :noidea:

And, you said: “who should he have drafted?” Again, I’m replying to your post about Cowher. :huh:

Then, you suddenly say: “since wen do coaches make trades?”



SUMMATION:
It’s okay to move the goalposts. I can debate it either way you want.

who's moving the goalposts?
you knocked cowher for not valuing the qb position.
i then asked you who he should have drafted.........you had no response, or listed 1 qb
so how can you say tomlin didnt value the qb position but not be ablke to come up with a list of good/great qbs that he passed over?

your buddy tried to come to your rescue and said cowher should have trade for a brett favre, you agreed with him
i said since when do coaches gtrade for players?....you then got confused and had to agree with me that coaches dont make trades, colbert does:panic:
you then try to clean it up by saying they were colberts players. i guess you were insinuating that they are the gms players BUT earlier you said bellichk won with pete carrols player(who is a coach):crazy:

so, seeing that you talked in circles, what point are you actually trying to make?

Mojouw
03-16-2019, 11:03 AM
The only difference between the two coaches is that Cowher yelled more and it gives some of you the damn vapors. Cowher teams started slow, sometimes lost to head scratching teams, shat the bead in the playoffs on more than one occasion despite having the more talented squad, and Cowher coached with his gut all the time - often resulting in head scratching calls.

But Cowher never kept bad coaches around. Really? Go look up the idiots he let coordinate his offenses. Take a gander at the non Capers and Lebeau D coordinators. But Cowher never coddled players and the locker room had no distractions? OK. Keep believing that. I’m sure the first time Faneca shot his mouth off was Ben’s rookie year. Also, Plaxico Burress existed and was on the team. What about Chad Brown refusing to play ILB and moaning his way out fo town to Seattle? Maybe if Cowher just spit on him some more he would have accepted the teams decision to pay him decently and make him an ILB. How much more could or would Cowher have won if he actually ever adapted to the changes in the league? He deserves his HOF jacket, but make no mistake about it - he was in danger of having the game pass him up. Three yards and a cloud of dust wasn’t gonna cut it anymore. Anyone wanna bet me that Joey Porter was a living breathing distraction? What about drafting guys because he like the look in their eye?

This idea that Tomlin doesnt know anything is just so damn stupid. Read about how he can identify and diagnose who had what assignment and how well they executed it in real time. Read about how he knows more about football than this whole board put together. Read about how 99% of his players would run through a wall for him. Think back to the fact that no matter the situation, no matter the top guys missing, no matter the score, a Mike Tomlin led team has never done anything less than compete and play hard for each and every game. All those last minute comebacks that Ben leads only happen if the other guys ball out and believe. That comes from somewhere. But he can’t develop players - really? That is stupid. More UDFAs and late round draft picks make the roster and excel in Pittsburgh under Mike Tomlin than almost anywhere else. You cant just say that any player that does well is on the player and any player that doesnt is on the coaches. Think about it this way. Most spin Martavis Bryant and Todd Haley as Mike Tomlin leadership failures. Maybe it is the exact opposite. Maybe Mike Tomlin was the one who enabled both those guys to experience success, even if short lived and problematic — because they certainly flamed out when they left Tomlin’s guidance. Maybe it was a master class of leadership that he held an offense together where the quarterback and coordinator hated each other. Haley certainly talked his way out of Cleveland in a hot minute.

Oh. Yeah. On the player development thing. Go look at Cowher’s draft picks and then try and remember how many guys on that list actually played. I mean Scott Frost happened. Look this rant is too long and barely coherent, but I’m sick of this cherry picked comparison argument. It is useless and stupid. They are both great coaches and both will be in the HOF one day. Both had their strength and weaknesses.

Hawkman
03-16-2019, 11:17 AM
The only difference between the two coaches is that Cowher yelled more and it gives some of you the damn vapors. Cowher teams started slow, sometimes lost to head scratching teams, shat the bead in the playoffs on more than one occasion despite having the more talented squad, and Cowher coached with his gut all the time - often resulting in head scratching calls.

But Cowher never kept bad coaches around. Really? Go look up the idiots he let coordinate his offenses. Take a gander at the non Capers and Lebeau D coordinators. But Cowher never coddled players and the locker room had no distractions? OK. Keep believing that. I’m sure the first time Faneca shot his mouth off was Ben’s rookie year. Also, Plaxico Burress existed and was on the team. What about Chad Brown refusing to play ILB and moaning his way out fo town to Seattle? Maybe if Cowher just spit on him some more he would have accepted the teams decision to pay him decently and make him an ILB. How much more could or would Cowher have won if he actually ever adapted to the changes in the league? He deserves his HOF jacket, but make no mistake about it - he was in danger of having the game pass him up. Three yards and a cloud of dust wasn’t gonna cut it anymore. Anyone wanna bet me that Joey Porter was a living breathing distraction? What about drafting guys because he like the look in their eye?

This idea that Tomlin doesnt know anything is just so damn stupid. Read about how he can identify and diagnose who had what assignment and how well they executed it in real time. Read about how he knows more about football than this whole board put together. Read about how 99% of his players would run through a wall for him. Think back to the fact that no matter the situation, no matter the top guys missing, no matter the score, a Mike Tomlin led team has never done anything less than compete and play hard for each and every game. All those last minute comebacks that Ben leads only happen if the other guys ball out and believe. That comes from somewhere. But he can’t develop players - really? That is stupid. More UDFAs and late round draft picks make the roster and excel in Pittsburgh under Mike Tomlin than almost anywhere else. You cant just say that any player that does well is on the player and any player that doesnt is on the coaches. Think about it this way. Most spin Martavis Bryant and Todd Haley as Mike Tomlin leadership failures. Maybe it is the exact opposite. Maybe Mike Tomlin was the one who enabled both those guys to experience success, even if short lived and problematic — because they certainly flamed out when they left Tomlin’s guidance. Maybe it was a master class of leadership that he held an offense together where the quarterback and coordinator hated each other. Haley certainly talked his way out of Cleveland in a hot minute.

Oh. Yeah. On the player development thing. Go look at Cowher’s draft picks and then try and remember how many guys on that list actually played. I mean Scott Frost happened. Look this rant is too long and barely coherent, but I’m sick of this cherry picked comparison argument. It is useless and stupid. They are both great coaches and both will be in the HOF one day. Both had their strength and weaknesses.

NICE!

teegre
03-16-2019, 11:19 AM
who's moving the goalposts?
you knocked cowher for not valuing the qb position.
i then asked you who he should have drafted.........you had no response, or listed 1 qb
so how can you say tomlin didnt value the qb position but not be ablke to come up with a list of good/great qbs that he passed over?

your buddy tried to come to your rescue and said cowher should have trade for a brett favre, you agreed with him
i said since when do coaches gtrade for players?....you then got confused and had to agree with me that coaches dont make trades, colbert does:panic:
you then try to clean it up by saying they were colberts players. i guess you were insinuating that they are the gms players BUT earlier you said bellichk won with pete carrols player(who is a coach):crazy:

so, seeing that you talked in circles, what point are you actually trying to make?

Are you being willfully obtuse?... or, are you truly not understanding?

munchy
03-16-2019, 11:33 AM
Are you being willfully obtuse?... or, are you truly not understanding?

i understand just fine.
i backed you in a corner and you cant get out. i gave you a chance to prove me wrong and you couldnt. your attempt to spin this on me isnt working on anyone but you.
lets just move on

teegre
03-16-2019, 11:44 AM
i understand just fine.
i backed you in a corner and you cant get out. i gave you a chance to prove me wrong and you couldnt. your attempt to spin this on me isnt working on anyone but you.
lets just move on

Obviously, you do not understand me. It’s okay. I can spot you, Tee Tee, (or is it Crash) from a mile away. It was worth a try. Oh well. :yawn:

Time for me to go enjoy the sunshine & the beach.

FrancoLambert
03-16-2019, 11:52 AM
Cowher and Tomlin both in the HOF?

I don’t see it. Both are good coaches, but neither deserve to make it IMO.

But the current habit of generously voting people into any of the HOF’s...players, coaches, football, baseball...maybe they will. :noidea:

teegre
03-16-2019, 11:53 AM
And please give me a list of the starting QBs Cowher had? If Ben came along earlier he wins a lot more than one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktCvTfFahHE&app=desktop

Steeler-in-west
03-16-2019, 01:00 PM
I can’t think of another team that has done so little with the amount of talent at hand.

who else can you blame besides the coach and his coordinators? I don’t think it’s the distractions caused by brown and bells holdout. Seem like excuses to me. Anyway we’ll find out this upcoming season.

- - - Updated - - -

Noll’s Last super bowl was in 79 and he was forced out 10 years later. Tomlin’s last super bowl was likewise in 09.

Mojouw
03-16-2019, 02:35 PM
Manning Era Colts were loaded. What did they win?
1970's Era Raiders were pretty loaded. Even into the 80's.
Warren Moon Oilers were stacked some years.
Kelly and Levy Bills was an embarassingly talented roster
1980's Browns.
Chargers at almost any point in their history - at least in the Rivers era.
Rodgers era Packers have had some very talented rosters.
Tony Dungy Bucs
Marino era Dolphins
Rex Ryan Jets teams were stacked on defense and were not too shabby on offense
Sam Wyche Boomer Esiason Bungles were really darn good
Purple People Eaters Vikings
All the Buddy Ryan Eagles teams were so ludicrously loaded up and down the roster that I don't think anyone understands how they didn't win, well anything. That might have been the most talented defense I've ever seen.

Point is there are a litany of staggeringly talent laden NFL rosters that didn't win snot. It is not a new phenomenon. Is it coaching? Bad Luck? Other dominant teams blocking the path? For instance, how many 1970's era teams do we NOT talk about as NFL fans because the Steelers blocked them from success? How many 1990s teams have we forgotten about because of the Jimmy Johnson Cowboys? How many teams in the Packers run with Lombardi do we forget about because all we remember is the Pack? Bill Walsh 49ers? Etc. Etc. Etc.

I forgot the entire Ray Lewis/Ed Reed era with the Ravens. They one two SBs with one of the greatest defensive rosters of all time. I mean Billick did suck as a coach....but still...IT IS HARD AS BALLS TO WIN IN THE NFL. This is the not the 1960's and 1970's. The line between the best team in the league and the worst squad is almost impossible to measure. The yawning gaps between "good" and "not good" that existed when most of us started watching football have essentially been completely erased.

Mojouw
03-16-2019, 02:43 PM
Cowher and Tomlin both in the HOF?

I don’t see it. Both are good coaches, but neither deserve to make it IMO.

But the current habit of generously voting people into any of the HOF’s...players, coaches, football, baseball...maybe they will. :noidea:
Might not happen. i was basing it off the fact that both compare favorably with Tony Dungy's achievements and he got in.

Steeler-in-west
03-16-2019, 03:04 PM
Pretty much all those teams you mentioned have shown more than the Steelers have in the last 9 - 10 years.

70’s Raiders? The Bills (4 super bowl appearances)? Vikings as well. How many of those others have been to the AFC or NFC conference championships?

Steelers are trying to clean house regarding the locker room which is logical, but at some point, the issue will come back to coaching. Tomlin has had 9-10 years with this team since 09, he’s had just as long to get somewhere as Noll did, post 79, with far more talent.

86WARD
03-16-2019, 03:13 PM
Cowher could have traded for any number of QBs... specifically, Brett Favre.

But, he didn’t.

Up until 2000 there really wasn’t a QB that Cowher could have drafted to make a difference. It would’ve had to be a trade. He definitely need a QB and while he drafted some and tried to address it through free agency, a trade would’ve been best. Upon a quick glance:

1993 he could’ve taken Mark Brunnell over Kevin Henry in the second round and until 2000, the QB market in the draft was pretty much trash.

1994 they took Jim Miller, possibly the most productive QB of that class?

1995 they took Kordell, possibly the most productive QB of that class?

1997 they could’ve taken Jake Plummer over Chad Scott in round one...meh.

1998 they could’ve taken Chuck Batch over Faneca in round one or Brian Griese over Hines Ward in round 3...no on both accounts.

2000 Chad Pennington over Plaxico Burress or Tom Brady (winner) at any point...but then 32 teams passes over Brady around a minimum of “5 times”.

Again, I just glanced quickly and unless I missed something, there really wasn’t much to draft from for a good chunk of Cowher’s early career...

They needed to trade for one...

86WARD
03-16-2019, 03:13 PM
Why would he do that when he had the mighty Kent Graham, Mike tomczak, Kordell Stewart etc etc

That was probably all that was on the free agent heap at the time...lol.

Shoes
03-16-2019, 03:14 PM
You guys having a pissing contest over Cowher & Tomlin can have them both.

86WARD
03-16-2019, 03:18 PM
Yea, but every time you set up the board, he tips it over and screams, “EARTHQUAKE!!!”

You played me before???

86WARD
03-16-2019, 03:22 PM
You guys having a pissing contest over Cowher & Tomlin can have them both.

Take morons that cut Johnny Unitas to keep Butch Marchibroda...

Take Chuck Noll as well. Idiot passed on Marino...

Mojouw
03-16-2019, 04:07 PM
Pretty much all those teams you mentioned have shown more than the Steelers have in the last 9 - 10 years.

70’s Raiders? The Bills (4 super bowl appearances)? Vikings as well. How many of those others have been to the AFC or NFC conference championships?

Steelers are trying to clean house regarding the locker room which is logical, but at some point, the issue will come back to coaching. Tomlin has had 9-10 years with this team since 09, he’s had just as long to get somewhere as Noll did, post 79, with far more talent.

You have a valid point, especially if you define "showing something" as less than a SB championship. Either a championship game appearance or super bowl berth. Many of the most vocal critiques of Tomlin era Steelers only use a SB victory as a "success". By that benchmark, there are a slew of teams in every era that were highly talented, well coached, and still didn't "win".

- - - Updated - - -


Up until 2000 there really wasn’t a QB that Cowher could have drafted to make a difference. It would’ve had to be a trade. He definitely need a QB and while he drafted some and tried to address it through free agency, a trade would’ve been best. Upon a quick glance:

1993 he could’ve taken Mark Brunnell over Kevin Henry in the second round and until 2000, the QB market in the draft was pretty much trash.

1994 they took Jim Miller, possibly the most productive QB of that class?

1995 they took Kordell, possibly the most productive QB of that class?

1997 they could’ve taken Jake Plummer over Chad Scott in round one...meh.

1998 they could’ve taken Chuck Batch over Faneca in round one or Brian Griese over Hines Ward in round 3...no on both accounts.

2000 Chad Pennington over Plaxico Burress or Tom Brady (winner) at any point...but then 32 teams passes over Brady around a minimum of “5 times”.

Again, I just glanced quickly and unless I missed something, there really wasn’t much to draft from for a good chunk of Cowher’s early career...

They needed to trade for one...

My goodness. Who the hell was playing QB across the NFL from 1995-2004? Here are all the QBs drafted -- https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/draft-finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=1995&year_max=2004&draft_slot_min=1&draft_slot_max=500&pick_type=overall&pos%5B%5D=qb&conference=any&show=all&order_by=default

That is a ton of really really really bad QBs.

Shoes
03-16-2019, 05:20 PM
Take Chuck Noll as well. Idiot passed on Marino...


"The reason the Steelers didn’t pick Marino had little to do with Marino and more to do with what they believed they had in Bradshaw, or at least what they thought they had in Bradshaw before March 3.
"According to a story by United Press International that appeared on March 23, 1983 and carried the dateline, Shreveport, La., 'Pittsburgh Steelers' star quarterback Terry Bradshaw underwent surgery on his throwing arm under an alias, officials said Tuesday. Charles Boyd, Doctor's Hospital administrator, said the four-time Super Bowl quarterback was admitted March 3 under the name Thomas Brady.'
"The irony of Bradshaw choosing that particular pseudonym notwithstanding, his decision to have a Shreveport orthopedist perform surgery on a 35-year-old man’s elbow, a 35-year-old man whose livelihood is totally dependent on said elbow, shows a frightening lack of judgment.
"If Bradshaw wanted to have the surgery, if he believed the surgery was necessary, either for him to continue playing or for him to have a certain quality of life moving forward, that’s OK. But getting it done in Shreveport under an assumed name, instead of having the best elbow man in America do it – say, Dr. James Andrews, or maybe Dr. Frank Jobe, the guy who invented what is known today as “Tommy John surgery” makes no sense. And did this choice of hospital/surgeon accelerate the arrival of the end of Bradshaw's career
"But nevertheless, 'Thomas Brady' chose to have the procedure done in Shreveport, and he was released from Doctor’s Hospital two days after the surgery with the prognosis that he could start throwing a football in late June."


more here

https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/Why-the-Pittsburgh-Steelers-didnt-draft-Dan-Marino-117300049/

munchy
03-16-2019, 05:37 PM
Up until 2000 there really wasn’t a QB that Cowher could have drafted to make a difference. It would’ve had to be a trade. He definitely need a QB and while he drafted some and tried to address it through free agency, a trade would’ve been best. Upon a quick glance:

1993 he could’ve taken Mark Brunnell over Kevin Henry in the second round and until 2000, the QB market in the draft was pretty much trash.

1994 they took Jim Miller, possibly the most productive QB of that class?

1995 they took Kordell, possibly the most productive QB of that class?

1997 they could’ve taken Jake Plummer over Chad Scott in round one...meh.

1998 they could’ve taken Chuck Batch over Faneca in round one or Brian Griese over Hines Ward in round 3...no on both accounts.

2000 Chad Pennington over Plaxico Burress or Tom Brady (winner) at any point...but then 32 teams passes over Brady around a minimum of “5 times”.

Again, I just glanced quickly and unless I missed something, there really wasn’t much to draft from for a good chunk of Cowher’s early career...

They needed to trade for one...

exactly.
yup, all you have to do is a little research to 'put to rest' that cowher ignored all the good/great qbs during that span. add in the next few years before we drafted ben and there was drew brees............thats it

- - - Updated - - -


Obviously, you do not understand me. It’s okay. I can spot you, Tee Tee, (or is it Crash) from a mile away. It was worth a try. Oh well. :yawn:

Time for me to go enjoy the sunshine & the beach.

that we agree on. i dont understand you.
maybe if i am the guy you are claiming to know i am(from a mile away) you might make sense to me................i guess

tube517
03-16-2019, 05:57 PM
Montana wanted to play for Pittsburgh but Cowher was fine w/O'Donnell and said no.

I would have taken Montana on those 93-94 teams any damn day.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=248&v=i1MNCc-zFnc

st33lersguy
03-16-2019, 06:12 PM
Some people are acting like the only problem with this team was AB and Bell believe that they will be competing for a Super Bowl now that AB is traded and Bell is gone. I think those people will end up disappointed when coaching (which has actually gotten worse), catches up to them again. They are likely to be disappointed when they either miss the playoffs again or if they make the playoffs lose their first playoff game after Keith Butler's defense surrenders 40+ points again

86WARD
03-16-2019, 06:31 PM
You have a valid point, especially if you define "showing something" as less than a SB championship. Either a championship game appearance or super bowl berth. Many of the most vocal critiques of Tomlin era Steelers only use a SB victory as a "success". By that benchmark, there are a slew of teams in every era that were highly talented, well coached, and still didn't "win".

- - - Updated - - -



My goodness. Who the hell was playing QB across the NFL from 1995-2004? Here are all the QBs drafted -- https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/draft-finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=1995&year_max=2004&draft_slot_min=1&draft_slot_max=500&pick_type=overall&pos%5B%5D=qb&conference=any&show=all&order_by=default

That is a ton of really really really bad QBs.

When I was looking, I thought the same...it was pretty bad...lol. Looking through that list, Miller and Stewart weren’t such bad selections considering what the Steelers had the opportunity to draft. Tom Brady really was the only “franchise QB” they had an opportunity to draft besides Ben. Or they could’ve signed Kurt Warner...but that wouldn’t have turned out the same...

86WARD
03-16-2019, 06:35 PM
Montana wanted to play for Pittsburgh but Cowher was fine w/O'Donnell and said no.

I would have taken Montana on those 93-94 teams any damn day.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=248&v=i1MNCc-zFnc

And that’s where the problem lies. There were opportunities to get quality free agents and he opted to stick with O’Donnell, Tomczak, Stewart, Miller, etc.

Mojouw
03-16-2019, 06:56 PM
When I was looking, I thought the same...it was pretty bad...lol. Looking through that list, Miller and Stewart weren’t such bad selections considering what the Steelers had the opportunity to draft. Tom Brady really was the only “franchise QB” they had an opportunity to draft besides Ben. Or they could’ve signed Kurt Warner...but that wouldn’t have turned out the same...

I think the interesting counter-factual is what an aggressive move by Cowher in the middle to late 90's to get a QB could have or would have looked like? In total hindsight a persuasive argument could be made for pursuing a back-up like Maddox or even a guy like Rich Gannon. Additionally, on of my favorite things to kick around is to try and decide if a failed QB prospect was just bad, or if he was in a bad situation. So some of those putrid looking draft picks, if the Steelers of that era would've traded up for them, put them behind a solid o-line and insulated them with good weapons and a high end defense - -who knows, they might have been okay or even good.

We will never know, but Cowher's repeated decision to ignore or devalue the QB position is a totally valid and important critique. Just as Tomlin's decision to stubbornly stick with LB heavy coverage schemes is.

hawaiiansteeler
03-16-2019, 08:27 PM
We will never know, but Cowher's repeated decision to ignore or devalue the QB position is a totally valid and important critique. Just as Tomlin's decision to stubbornly stick with LB heavy coverage schemes is.

I agree 100%!

munchy
03-17-2019, 09:53 AM
I think the interesting counter-factual is what an aggressive move by Cowher in the middle to late 90's to get a QB could have or would have looked like? In total hindsight a persuasive argument could be made for pursuing a back-up like Maddox or even a guy like Rich Gannon. Additionally, on of my favorite things to kick around is to try and decide if a failed QB prospect was just bad, or if he was in a bad situation. So some of those putrid looking draft picks, if the Steelers of that era would've traded up for them, put them behind a solid o-line and insulated them with good weapons and a high end defense - -who knows, they might have been okay or even good.

We will never know, but Cowher's repeated decision to ignore or devalue the QB position is a totally valid and important critique. Just as Tomlin's decision to stubbornly stick with LB heavy coverage schemes is.

so i already established there werent any good qbs for cowher to draft
no now it changes to cowher should have traded for one.......wasnt it already establishes that coaches dont make trades?
so cowher didnt ignore or devalue the qb position.
if anybody did, it was the owner and gm
and while we are at it, can you tell me when was the last time the steelers made a trade for a player the caliber of montana?..............the answer is never
finally, to compare cowhers having the ability to trade for montana(which he didnt have )_to tomlins decision to play lbs in coverage(which he has total control) is foolish
if thats the case, tomlin should have traded for earl thomas, eric berry, charles woodson and richard sherman if he truly valued the secondary psoitions

Mojouw
03-17-2019, 10:54 AM
so i already established there werent any good qbs for cowher to draft
no now it changes to cowher should have traded for one.......wasnt it already establishes that coaches dont make trades?
so cowher didnt ignore or devalue the qb position.
if anybody did, it was the owner and gm
and while we are at it, can you tell me when was the last time the steelers made a trade for a player the caliber of montana?..............the answer is never
finally, to compare cowhers having the ability to trade for montana(which he didnt have )_to tomlins decision to play lbs in coverage(which he has total control) is foolish
if thats the case, tomlin should have traded for earl thomas, eric berry, charles woodson and richard sherman if he truly valued the secondary psoitions

You are either not very smart or are being willfully ignorant. Everyone else is managing to have a pleasant discussion, even if we disagree. You’re arguing in absolutes and about the meaning of words like a 15 year old who just discovered Reddit and misunderstood the one book on logic they read while high late at night.

teegre
03-17-2019, 10:56 AM
And that’s where the problem lies. There were opportunities to get quality free agents and he opted to stick with O’Donnell, Tomczak, Stewart, Miller, etc.

:nod:

His philosophy almost worked, too. Let’s use a salary cap of $100 million (for easier numbers with which to work). Your franchise QB takes up 20% of that. One player... $20 million. Cowher went with Scrub McDecent (for $5 million) and used that extra money to keep FOUR top-tier defenders.

It’s sort of like today, where teams hit on a franchise QB in the draft, and then, surround him with talent while he is on his rookie contract (see: Seahawks from 2013-2017).

If a certain “QB who shall remain nameless” (because, he’s dead to me) hadn’t messed up Super Bowl XXX, it would have worked. Likewise, the 1997 AFCCG and the 2001 AFCCG saw Kordell have a meltdown at the absolute worst time.

The problem is: if you add Montana fir 1993 & 1994, you probably lose Rod Woodson and/or Greg Lloyd. A few years later, I’d you trade for Rich Gannon, you likely do not have Levon Kirkland and/or Joel Steed. If you draft Drew Brees, you absolutely do not have Casey Hampton. Now... those decisions look simple in hindsight, but it truly was a bunch of very tough choices.

SUMMATION:
There is a reason that QB is the most important player on your team.