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Shoes
02-04-2019, 09:03 AM
Is that Omar Khan next to Joe G.? Nice to see Harrison and AJRII nice and cozy. :chuckle:


The Steelers aren't in the Super Bowl, but several of Pittsburgh's players had plenty to say about Sunday's big game between the Patriots and Rams. Below are some of the comments from Steelers' players during and after Super Bowl LIII. The Steelers will look to return to the Super Bowl in 2019 after a nine-year absence.

https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/ContentGallery/Pittsburgh-Steelers-reactions-to-Super-Bowl-LIII-128655504#1127257_3

steelreserve
02-04-2019, 09:18 AM
The Steelers will look to return to the Super Bowl in 2019 after a nine-year absence.

Just your friendly reminder that over a 10-year timespan, every single team in the league should have more than a 60% chance of appearing in at least one Super Bowl, simply by the law of averages.

tube517
02-04-2019, 09:58 AM
Is that Omar Khan next to Joe G.? Nice to see Harrison and AJRII nice and cozy. :chuckle:


The Steelers aren't in the Super Bowl, but several of Pittsburgh's players had plenty to say about Sunday's big game between the Patriots and Rams. Below are some of the comments from Steelers' players during and after Super Bowl LIII. The Steelers will look to return to the Super Bowl in 2019 after a nine-year absence.

https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/ContentGallery/Pittsburgh-Steelers-reactions-to-Super-Bowl-LIII-128655504#1127257_3

I was wondering who that was next to Mean Joe. Never seen Omar's picture

Mojouw
02-04-2019, 11:21 AM
Only 10 different teams have appeared in the SB in the last 10 years.

It is really hard to get to the SB. Averages don't work in the NFL perhaps?

steelreserve
02-04-2019, 12:05 PM
Only 10 different teams have appeared in the SB in the last 10 years.

It is really hard to get to the SB. Averages don't work in the NFL perhaps?

Well, you have to be better than average to make it ... But I thought that's what we were supposed to be.

Like, I realize 60% (actually 62.5%) is an overly simplified way of looking at it - but on the other hand, maybe not.

For all intents and purposes, you can throw out a bunch of teams like the Browns, Redskins, Lions, Raiders, Bucs, Bills, Jets, Dolphins ... they essentially wasted an entire decade and gave their chances to one of the other teams to be in it more than once. (The last three, in particular, went above and beyond to hand their chances directly to one particular team). What you have really got are about 20-24 teams competing for 20 spots ... those teams can also be more or less split into a top and a bottom tier - I mean, you're giving the benefit of the doubt to teams like the Bengals and the Texans, which is pretty questionable ... and other teams who made it once and sucked for 8 or 9 out of the 10 years (49ers, Cardinals) are on the list by default.

So are we supposed to be in the top tier or the bottom tier? Either way, it sucks. Top tier means we've wasted way more opportunities than we should. Bottom tier means - what the fuck have we been doing for a decade, if we're not more than marginal contenders, we need to change our approach.

Either one is a pretty poor outcome if the same people have been running the show for 10 years. You've been coaching the 49ers for a couple seasons, to a certain extent you can say "it was like that when I got here." A decade is long enough that there are no excuses. Things change enough for even the worst team in the league to be competing for championships if they make the right moves. In fact, the entire system is set up to enable that. What's our excuse?

EzraTank
02-04-2019, 12:13 PM
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51295974_10218454665099673_7870311868072460288_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=14f8d84033d873094eebd90cadbcc052&oe=5CED29E2

Mojouw
02-04-2019, 12:20 PM
Well, you have to be better than average to make it ... But I thought that's what we were supposed to be.

Like, I realize 60% (actually 62.5%) is an overly simplified way of looking at it - but on the other hand, maybe not.

For all intents and purposes, you can throw out a bunch of teams like the Browns, Redskins, Lions, Raiders, Bucs, Bills, Jets, Dolphins ... they essentially wasted an entire decade and gave their chances to one of the other teams to be in it more than once. (The last three, in particular, went above and beyond to hand their chances directly to one particular team). What you have really got are about 20-24 teams competing for 20 spots ... those teams can also be more or less split into a top and a bottom tier - I mean, you're giving the benefit of the doubt to teams like the Bengals and the Texans, which is pretty questionable ... and other teams who made it once and sucked for 8 or 9 out of the 10 years (49ers, Cardinals) are on the list by default.

So are we supposed to be in the top tier or the bottom tier? Either way, it sucks. Top tier means we've wasted way more opportunities than we should. Bottom tier means - what the fuck have we been doing for a decade, if we're not more than marginal contenders, we need to change our approach.

Either one is a pretty poor outcome if the same people have been running the show for 10 years. You've been coaching the 49ers for a couple seasons, to a certain extent you can say "it was like that when I got here." A decade is long enough that there are no excuses. Things change enough for even the worst team in the league to be competing for championships if they make the right moves. In fact, the entire system is set up to enable that. What's our excuse?

Huh? I can see some of that. There are clearly teams whose goal for a given year is not winning a SB, but creating and following a path to improvement.

But then you have teams like the Saints, Packers, Cowboys, Chiefs, Steelers, Chargers, and list whoever else you want that haven't really been in a SB during your window either.

I just think that this board in particular wildly overestimates how easy it is to make a SB run. Literally everything has to go right for a team to pull it off. One way to look at it is that "Team X has totally failed to make and win a SB in 10 years so those in charge are incompetent morons." Another is, "Wow, most NFL teams run through boom and bust cycles with far more bust years. This team has been a consistent winner and in the conversation for possible SB teams almost every year for 2 decades now. That's pretty much unheard of."

Perspectives are individual and can readily and reasonably vary. I'm gonna stick with an optimistic one and enjoy the fact that the team I root for hasn't been consigned to wandering the NFL wilderness for some time now. No one else has to take the same viewpoint.

steelreserve
02-04-2019, 01:07 PM
Huh? I can see some of that. There are clearly teams whose goal for a given year is not winning a SB, but creating and following a path to improvement.

But then you have teams like the Saints, Packers, Cowboys, Chiefs, Steelers, Chargers, and list whoever else you want that haven't really been in a SB during your window either.

I just think that this board in particular wildly overestimates how easy it is to make a SB run. Literally everything has to go right for a team to pull it off. One way to look at it is that "Team X has totally failed to make and win a SB in 10 years so those in charge are incompetent morons." Another is, "Wow, most NFL teams run through boom and bust cycles with far more bust years. This team has been a consistent winner and in the conversation for possible SB teams almost every year for 2 decades now. That's pretty much unheard of."

Perspectives are individual and can readily and reasonably vary. I'm gonna stick with an optimistic one and enjoy the fact that the team I root for hasn't been consigned to wandering the NFL wilderness for some time now. No one else has to take the same viewpoint.

"Could be worse"

That definitely is one way of looking at it. Another way is what Sean Connery said in that movie that one time. "Losers whine about doing their best. Winners go home and fuck the prom queen."

I definitely am more in the second camp.

Mojouw
02-04-2019, 02:05 PM
"Could be worse"

That definitely is one way of looking at it. Another way is what Sean Connery said in that movie that one time. "Losers whine about doing their best. Winners go home and fuck the prom queen."

I definitely am more in the second camp.

Fair enough. It should be noted that if I understand the perspective you are taking appropriately (and I likely don't!) there is only one team in the NFL that is meeting that standard - the New England Patriots. Maybe the Seattle Seahawks.

So 30-31 teams are falling short of the benchmark. How realistic is the benchmark then? Again, not trying to say you are wrong - just trying to engage in a discussion about what is and isn't realistic fan expectations in the NFL.

Shoes
02-04-2019, 02:20 PM
Fair enough. It should be noted that if I understand the perspective you are taking appropriately (and I likely don't!) there is only one team in the NFL that is meeting that standard - the New England Patriots. Maybe the Seattle Seahawks.

So 30-31 teams are falling short of the benchmark. How realistic is the benchmark then? Again, not trying to say you are wrong - just trying to engage in a discussion about what is and isn't realistic fan expectations in the NFL.
For the Steelers, the standard should be high. I remember this team from the late 50's and 60's. I think Dan Rooney and Chuck Noll set the bar high and I'm glad they did, I see no reason to go back. I think with the history, hard work & guts of this team they should be deep playoff contenders every year (barring injuries to major players). I think everyone in the Steeler organization expects this. I mean the SB is the goal but most teams and players seem to have self-glory and money as a goal. I think if AB decides to come back great! But you have a guy like him on SB night twitting Steeler Nation asking them if they want him back, meanwhile Edelman is winning the SB and MVP of the game. The difference is Edelman with all his warts is a 100% team player and AB with his warts isn't. Those are edges that move teams forward imo.

Mojouw
02-04-2019, 02:40 PM
For the Steelers, the standard should be high. I remember this team from the late 50's and 60's. I think Dan Rooney and Chuck Noll set the bar high and I'm glad they did, I see no reason to go back. I think with the history, hard work & guts of this team they should be deep playoff contenders every year (barring injuries to major players). I think everyone in the Steeler organization expects that. I mean the SB is the goal but most teams and players goal is the money and glory.

That would be great! But only ONE franchise has done that in this parity filled salary cap driven era - the New England Patriots. And according to a great percentage of football fans that isonly because they cheat and bend the rules to win.

Might be that, as die-hard fanatics, we have totally unrealistic expectations for our favorite team each year. Don't know. But I do think it is interesting to talk about.

Personally, I do not think that a deep playoff run each and every year is realistic. In fact, I am not sure that being an annual 9-7 to 11-5 team isn't a detriment to actual getting to and winning a SB. Other than the Patriots, almost every recent winning team had to have a couple of losing seasons to get elite draft picks to reinvigorate the franchise.

The only problem I have with the current iteration of the Steelers, as an organization, is the apparent lack of a plan on defense. Like I have no idea what they are trying to build towards. Do they want to play more base, more nickel, a bunch of dime...no idea. Someone needs to have a clear vision and move towards it. Offense, they have one. Draft day, seem to have one. Contract and cap stuff, clearly have a plan. But that one aspect...

Shoes
02-04-2019, 02:53 PM
That would be great! But only ONE franchise has done that in this parity filled salary cap driven era - the New England Patriots. And according to a great percentage of football fans that isonly because they cheat and bend the rules to win.

Might be that, as die-hard fanatics, we have totally unrealistic expectations for our favorite team each year. Don't know. But I do think it is interesting to talk about.

Personally, I do not think that a deep playoff run each and every year is realistic. In fact, I am not sure that being an annual 9-7 to 11-5 team isn't a detriment to actual getting to and winning a SB. Other than the Patriots, almost every recent winning team had to have a couple of losing seasons to get elite draft picks to reinvigorate the franchise.

The only problem I have with the current iteration of the Steelers, as an organization, is the apparent lack of a plan on defense. Like I have no idea what they are trying to build towards. Do they want to play more base, more nickel, a bunch of dime...no idea. Someone needs to have a clear vision and move towards it. Offense, they have one. Draft day, seem to have one. Contract and cap stuff, clearly have a plan. But that one aspect...


I was adding to my quote when you posted. :chuckle: I think some of the success of the pats comes from small bits and pieces of everyday football life drilled home. I found some of this interesting

https://www.forbes.com/sites/francesbridges/2018/02/04/why-the-patriots-always-win/#1c47f4d2bf66

https://www.theringer.com/nfl-playoffs/2018/1/30/16949762/super-bowl-new-england-patriots-fourth-quarter-comebacks-running-conditioning

fansince'76
02-04-2019, 03:18 PM
I just think that this board in particular wildly overestimates how easy it is to make a SB run. Literally everything has to go right for a team to pull it off.

Yep - the Patriots were literally one Dee Ford neutral zone infraction from not making the SB at all. And I also think KC takes it down and scores a TD if they'd have won the OT coin flip instead.

Mojouw
02-04-2019, 03:20 PM
I was adding to my quote when you posted. :chuckle: I think some of the success of the pats comes from small bits and pieces of everyday football life drilled home. I found some of this interesting

https://www.forbes.com/sites/francesbridges/2018/02/04/why-the-patriots-always-win/#1c47f4d2bf66

https://www.theringer.com/nfl-playoffs/2018/1/30/16949762/super-bowl-new-england-patriots-fourth-quarter-comebacks-running-conditioning

I bet that is part of it - particularly because their roster is so many new parts each season and even between the end of the season and the beginning. The constant need to integrate new players and adjust roles likely drives a big need to consistently monitor fitness and conditioning.

Just to be a bit of a jerk -- lets not lose sight of the fact that the gritty, team first, Superbowl MVP was suspended for 4 games for violating the PED policy. I am growing really tired of the need to attribute the Patriots run of success to some mystical aura of leadership and grittiness. It is pretty darn simple. The have the best QB on the planet for the entire run. An offense catered to his strengths. And a coach who is able to devise and install a defensive system on an almost weekly basis.

For instance, the Patriots played a predominate amount of man coverage all 2018. Then last night they played almost all zone. And looked like the best zone cover team in football doing it. They did this to counter the core concepts of McVay's offense. In turn, McVay had nothing. I mean I guess that is a bit of leadership and experience, but it is mostly knowing that you better show up in the SB with new crap. The Pats brought new crap to the SB and the Rams trotted out the same old stuff the Pats had spent 2 weeks watching on film. Not mysticism. In contrast, last year the Eagles ran new stuff and lo and behold they beat the gritty leadership filled automatons of football.

I guess my point can be boiled down to this: The Patriots do not win because they have found some secret sauce to roster construction, team management, or physical fitness. They have realized that if you give anyone 2 weeks to plan, they can come up with something to beat what you already have on film. So show up with some unexpected shit combined with 2-3 things that you can do so damn well it doesn't matter what the other team does or knows. That is why the Pats never blow anyone out in a SB. They showed up last night with a zone scheme to make Goff have to anticipate - just like someone posted, Goff sucks at that. Then on offense they showed up with 3 plays. 2 power runs and that play they ran 3 straight times on the TD drive. The Rams failed to have ANY answers for that. Last year the Eagles did. Who knows what next year brings.

But in the meantime we will hear about culture and leadership. Why do we not hear about how the Patriots are just really really really good at football? Or maybe identifying and exposing the weak link in the Rams right guard over and over and over again is leadership, but I don't think that is what people are talking about...

Shoes
02-04-2019, 03:31 PM
I bet that is part of it - particularly because their roster is so many new parts each season and even between the end of the season and the beginning. The constant need to integrate new players and adjust roles likely drives a big need to consistently monitor fitness and conditioning.

Just to be a bit of a jerk -- lets not lose sight of the fact that the gritty, team first, Superbowl MVP was suspended for 4 games for violating the PED policy. I am growing really tired of the need to attribute the Patriots run of success to some mystical aura of leadership and grittiness. It is pretty darn simple. The have the best QB on the planet for the entire run. An offense catered to his strengths. And a coach who is able to devise and install a defensive system on an almost weekly basis.

For instance, the Patriots played a predominate amount of man coverage all 2018. Then last night they played almost all zone. And looked like the best zone cover team in football doing it. They did this to counter the core concepts of McVay's offense. In turn, McVay had nothing. I mean I guess that is a bit of leadership and experience, but it is mostly knowing that you better show up in the SB with new crap. The Pats brought new crap to the SB and the Rams trotted out the same old stuff the Pats had spent 2 weeks watching on film. Not mysticism. In contrast, last year the Eagles ran new stuff and lo and behold they beat the gritty leadership filled automatons of football.


But everything has to be built on a foundation this is what old Bill has started with and what I think McVay has started with, at least from what I have read. Same rules, same treatment for everyone

Mojouw
02-04-2019, 03:37 PM
But everything has to be built on a foundation this is what old Bill has stat=rted with and what I think McVay has started with, at least from what I have read.

There is really only one difference between the approach of the Patriots and the rest of the league. The rest of the league decides that they are this and that kind of offense and a such and such style of defense and then attempts to drill that into players heads through repetition so that players will always act/react in predictable ways on Sundays. In contrast, the Patriots have decided "screw that. why don't we just be a new team every few weeks."

Great article on how at least for the SB, the Patriots just did different things and the Rams leaned on their same old tendencies: https://deadspin.com/how-the-patriots-defense-put-the-rams-in-a-trash-can-1832326941

I think attempting to understand how the Patriots staff is able implement new schemes every few weeks and have players understand their responsibilities in multiple scenarios at the same time is the key to "unlocking" the mystery of their dominance. Maybe they just roster smarter players? I don't know. But the rest of the teams seem to struggle to get guys to understand one concept at a time while the Patriots are teaching guys 3 concepts at a time.

Shoes
02-04-2019, 03:55 PM
There is really only one difference between the approach of the Patriots and the rest of the league. The rest of the league decides that they are this and that kind of offense and a such and such style of defense and then attempts to drill that into players heads through repetition so that players will always act/react in predictable ways on Sundays. In contrast, the Patriots have decided "screw that. why don't we just be a new team every few weeks."

Great article on how at least for the SB, the Patriots just did different things and the Rams leaned on their same old tendencies: https://deadspin.com/how-the-patriots-defense-put-the-rams-in-a-trash-can-1832326941

I think attempting to understand how the Patriots staff is able implement new schemes every few weeks and have players understand their responsibilities in multiple scenarios at the same time is the key to "unlocking" the mystery of their dominance. Maybe they just roster smarter players? I don't know. But the rest of the teams seem to struggle to get guys to understand one concept at a time while the Patriots are teaching guys 3 concepts at a time.

Good article. The bottom line imo it starts with how you run your ship, starting with the little things, that is what makes the difference and that is directed by HC.

steelreserve
02-04-2019, 03:59 PM
Fair enough. It should be noted that if I understand the perspective you are taking appropriately (and I likely don't!) there is only one team in the NFL that is meeting that standard - the New England Patriots. Maybe the Seattle Seahawks.

So 30-31 teams are falling short of the benchmark. How realistic is the benchmark then? Again, not trying to say you are wrong - just trying to engage in a discussion about what is and isn't realistic fan expectations in the NFL.

The point is not how many, or how few, other teams are meeting that standard. It is that your team SHOULD be aiming for that standard, because that is the only standard that is rewarded. And if you're not making progress toward it, then you should stop and evaluate what you're doing. I don't think it's "complaining" to question whether we're doing everything we can to reach that goal.

One way to look at is, "well, we're doing better than the Browns." I would say that we have more tools at this point than most teams to help us succeed, so we SHOULD be doing better than the Browns and that is nothing to celebrate.

There will come a time when we're not so fortunate, and it will be more like some of the early '90s teams where making the playoffs was exciting and you hoped they added a couple pieces next year, and it was good that they were going in the right direction.

At that point, assuming things do not deviate from the way they are now, I will not be looking back at the 2010s and thinking, "man, it was great that we did pretty good and made the playoffs pretty often," but rather, "damn, it's too bad we didn't win one more championship when we had a franchise QB and a loaded roster. That was kind of a waste, and now being several steps away really drives that home."

THAT'S the perspective that being better than the Browns brings. Competing for a championship is difficult, that's the whole point. People say, "oh, you're taking it for granted because the team is good and you're spoiled, so you complain about anything other than going 19-0 every year and even then you'd still find something to complain about!" No, more like you know that being in a position to compete for a championship is nothing to take for granted, and to have it be within reach and keep missing it is a terrible waste, because the window could, in fact, be gone just like that.

I mean, I assume most of us have other teams we follow in different sports; it's not like the Steelers are the only point of reference and all anyone knows is rooting for a successful team. The "spoiled Steelers fan" argument is pretty ridiculous to me.

Mojouw
02-04-2019, 04:04 PM
Good article. The bottom line imo starts with how you run your ship, starting with the little things, that is what makes the difference and that comes from the HC.

Doing hill sprints does not magically enable your players to grasp, assimilate, and enact defensive schemes at a rate that no other NFL team has been able to replicate. While it doesn't hurt and it stresses fundamentals, everything is important, yada-yada-yada; there is another piece or two. I am interested in what those other pieces are.

Do the Pats watch film differently? Do they approach game-plan installations differently? Do their coaches have different roles and responsibilities than other teams? Do they set-up and run their practice and position group meetings in a way that fosters quicker learning and understanding of concepts?

- - - Updated - - -


The point is not how many, or how few, other teams are meeting that standard. It is that your team SHOULD be aiming for that standard, because that is the only standard that is rewarded. And if you're not making progress toward it, then you should stop and evaluate what you're doing. I don't think it's "complaining" to question whether we're doing everything we can to reach that goal.

One way to look at is, "well, we're doing better than the Browns." I would say that we have more tools at this point than most teams to help us succeed, so we SHOULD be doing better than the Browns and that is nothing to celebrate.

There will come a time when we're not so fortunate, and it will be more like some of the early '90s teams where making the playoffs was exciting and you hoped they added a couple pieces next year, and it was good that they were going in the right direction.

At that point, assuming things do not deviate from the way they are now, I will not be looking back at the 2010s and thinking, "man, it was great that we did pretty good and made the playoffs pretty often," but rather, "damn, it's too bad we didn't win one more championship when we had a franchise QB and a loaded roster. That was kind of a waste, and now being several steps away really drives that home."

THAT'S the perspective that being better than the Browns brings. Competing for a championship is difficult, that's the whole point. People say, "oh, you're taking it for granted because the team is good and you're spoiled, so you complain about anything other than going 19-0 every year and even then you'd still find something to complain about!" No, more like you know that being in a position to compete for a championship is nothing to take for granted, and to have it be within reach and keep missing it is a terrible waste, because the window could, in fact, be gone just like that.

I mean, I assume most of us have other teams we follow in different sports; it's not like the Steelers are the only point of reference and all anyone knows is rooting for a successful team. The "spoiled Steelers fan" argument is pretty ridiculous to me.

I can see all that and I think I understand where you are coming from. I just think that any standard that no team in the league is meeting is not a realistic expectation. It sets you up for heartburn and anger as a fan. Personally, I follow the NFL for a distraction from the rotating stress ball shit-storm that my life can be sometimes. As a result, I (try to) enjoy the ups and downs of a season and figure any season where my team is in contention until Week 17+ is an enjoyable one. Does that mean that everything is fine and I don't wish some stuff changed? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. Any SB that the Steelers appear in, much less win, I take as a total surprise and that lets me watch some of this stuff without heartburn!

Shoes
02-04-2019, 04:18 PM
Doing hill sprints does not magically enable your players to grasp, assimilate, and enact defensive schemes at a rate that no other NFL team has been able to replicate. While it doesn't hurt and it stresses fundamentals, everything is important, yada-yada-yada; there is another piece or two. I am interested in what those other pieces are.

Do the Pats watch film differently? Do they approach game-plan installations differently? Do their coaches have different roles and responsibilities than other teams? Do they set-up and run their practice and position group meetings in a way that fosters quicker learning and understanding of concepts?

No, it's not magically but its a part of the plan and I think that is how they build one piece at a time with no stone unturned and no room for divas unless they hop on board. Kind of hard when you have vet players snoring in meets, not showing up for meeting and missing game days.

steelreserve
02-04-2019, 04:21 PM
Doing hill sprints does not magically enable your players to grasp, assimilate, and enact defensive schemes at a rate that no other NFL team has been able to replicate. While it doesn't hurt and it stresses fundamentals, everything is important, yada-yada-yada; there is another piece or two. I am interested in what those other pieces are.

Do the Pats watch film differently? Do they approach game-plan installations differently? Do their coaches have different roles and responsibilities than other teams? Do they set-up and run their practice and position group meetings in a way that fosters quicker learning and understanding of concepts?

- - - Updated - - -



I can see all that and I think I understand where you are coming from. I just think that any standard that no team in the league is meeting is not a realistic expectation. It sets you up for heartburn and anger as a fan. Personally, I follow the NFL for a distraction from the rotating stress ball shit-storm that my life can be sometimes. As a result, I (try to) enjoy the ups and downs of a season and figure any season where my team is in contention until Week 17+ is an enjoyable one. Does that mean that everything is fine and I don't wish some stuff changed? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. Any SB that the Steelers appear in, much less win, I take as a total surprise and that lets me watch some of this stuff without heartburn!

I don't really think most of us are stressing out too much over the outcome of a football season in the grand scheme of things, and really any postseason success is a bonus for a fan of any team. You still can't help but look at the place this team is in right now and go, come on, you guys really can't get your shit together with all you have going for you?

Mojouw
02-04-2019, 04:25 PM
I don't really think most of us are stressing out too much over the outcome of a football season in the grand scheme of things, and really any postseason success is a bonus for a fan of any team. You still can't help but look at the place this team is in right now and go, come on, you guys really can't get your shit together with all you have going for you?

Sure. That is why I have (and it took me far too long to get here) a problem with the defensive approach. But the rest of it, I think it is largely just noise driven by frustrated egos searching for an outlet.

86WARD
02-04-2019, 05:54 PM
Do the Pats watch film differently? Do they approach game-plan installations differently? Do their coaches have different roles and responsibilities than other teams? Do they set-up and run their practice and position group meetings in a way that fosters quicker learning and understanding of concepts?


Yes.

Mojouw
02-04-2019, 06:31 PM
Yes.

And how do you know this or are you just working backwards from results to process?

86WARD
02-04-2019, 07:09 PM
And how do you know this or are you just working backwards from results to process?

Poise, preparation, actions and results. Plus a little sarcasm in the answer.

Shoes
02-04-2019, 07:15 PM
Poise, preparation, actions and results. Plus a little sarcasm in the answer.

Yep like Bill getting a sold-out team player like Edelman for 3 million per year @ 32 years old

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/julian-edelman-seriously-underpaid-apos-163505836.html

Mojouw
02-04-2019, 07:16 PM
Poise, preparation, actions and results. Plus a little sarcasm in the answer.

I suspect your right and would really really really really like someone to ask the Pats players and coaches those questions and come up with something near the actual answer other than "gritty leadership".

Artie Burns can't even keep track of both his feet and one WR in single man coverage and McCourty can track his guy and realize that the back-up safety didn't take the deep guy. Meanwhile, Davis can't even see Haden. Is it dumb players? Do the Pats just incept their players while they are sleeping?

steelreserve
02-04-2019, 08:05 PM
I suspect your right and would really really really really like someone to ask the Pats players and coaches those questions and come up with something near the actual answer other than "gritty leadership".

Artie Burns can't even keep track of both his feet and one WR in single man coverage and McCourty can track his guy and realize that the back-up safety didn't take the deep guy. Meanwhile, Davis can't even see Haden. Is it dumb players? Do the Pats just incept their players while they are sleeping?

If there is anything about the Patriots secret formula (other than cheating), it is likely that Belichick has the ability to cut through the bullshit and tell very quickly who is going to be a player that "gets it" and who is not. One thing I do not see a lot of on that team is players who struggle along for a couple years and are still starting, first-round picks farting around waiting for the light bulb to come on, and just a lot of the general churning without accomplishing anything that we tend to have. Just being able to identify, QUICKLY, the right player for a specific job, regardless of pedigree or Combine measurables. They also probably have a pretty well-practiced routine for teaching roles, which in turn helps separate the wheat from the chaff faster. Some dickhead like Burns shows up and doesn't get the hang of it, he probably doesn't even get on the field to begin with until he has his shit together.

Whereas we seem to get hung up on sunk costs and Baller Status, and pinning our hopes on one guy to be the Successor at a position with a capital S. And we will keep running him out there over and over hoping he is going to be "the" guy, and meanwhile over in Mordor, they kicked that guy out ages ago and tried two other guys, and it turns out some rando was good enough and they stuck with that guy, and have long since moved on to solving other problems.

We have a handful of heroes who we must stick to through thick and thin; Sauron has 10,000 orcs and just throws the toughest ones ar you.

Or I guess another way of looking at it is like we're playing draw poker and we have a pair of sixes, a pair of jacks, and an ace, and we won't throw away the ace because it's a good card. Or we're hoping the ace will turn into a jack if we stare hard enough at it. Or we're just too dumb to look at half our cards.

Mojouw
02-04-2019, 08:13 PM
If there is anything about the Patriots secret formula (other than cheating), it is likely that Belichick has the ability to cut through the bullshit and tell very quickly who is going to be a player that "gets it" and who is not. One thing I do not see a lot of on that team is players who struggle along for a couple years and are still starting, first-round picks farting around waiting for the light bulb to come on, and just a lot of the general churning without accomplishing anything that we tend to have. Just being able to identify, QUICKLY, the right player for a specific job, regardless of pedigree or Combine measurables. They also probably have a pretty well-practiced routine for teaching roles, which in turn helps separate the wheat from the chaff faster. Some dickhead like Burns shows up and doesn't get the hang of it, he probably doesn't even get on the field to begin with until he has his shit together.

Whereas we seem to get hung up on sunk costs and Baller Status, and pinning our hopes on one guy to be the Successor at a position with a capital S. And we will keep running him out there over and over hoping he is going to be "the" guy, and meanwhile over in Mordor, they kicked that guy out ages ago and tried two other guys, and it turns out some rando was good enough and they stuck with that guy, and have long since moved on to solving other problems.

We have a handful of heroes who we must stick to through thick and thin; Sauron has 10,000 orcs and just throws the toughest ones ar you.

Or I guess another way of looking at it is like we're playing draw poker and we have a pair of sixes, a pair of jacks, and an ace, and we won't throw away the ace because it's a good card. Or we're hoping the ace will turn into a jack if we stare hard enough at it. Or we're just too dumb to look at half our cards.

All good points and laugh out loud funny to boot. I wonder why no one from that staff can transport the same principles with success elsewhere? Is Sauron just that much smarter than everyone else in all of football?

st33lersguy
02-04-2019, 09:21 PM
All good points and laugh out loud funny to boot. I wonder why no one from that staff can transport the same principles with success elsewhere? Is Sauron just that much smarter than everyone else in all of football?

A lot easier to work under the thumb of a grandmaster than running the show as the head man yourself.

steelreserve
02-04-2019, 09:35 PM
All good points and laugh out loud funny to boot. I wonder why no one from that staff can transport the same principles with success elsewhere? Is Sauron just that much smarter than everyone else in all of football?

I think that Sauron knows exactly what is going to work in HIS system, and when someone else tries to take it and apply it to their own slightly different system it doesnt work as well, or if they try the same exact system they're not as good at identifying the right players. Kind of like how not many people could do a good job copying Chip Kelly's system exactly, only this one actually works.

I also imagine that a lot of information is stuff that he has in his head and doesn't share all of it with all his assistants. And also it works better because he enhances it with cheating.

I do have infinitely more respect, albeit grudgingly, for Belichick than I do for Brady, who if not for the biggest helping of right-place-right-time, crap-assed luck in the history of football, would probably just be some dickhead who backed up Matt Hasselbeck for a few seasons or something and then retired 10 years ago.

Shoes
02-04-2019, 09:45 PM
Well, at least Edelman got Switzer all pumped up for next season.

https://twitter.com/Switz/status/1092226293511438336

Mojouw
02-04-2019, 11:06 PM
I think that Sauron knows exactly what is going to work in HIS system, and when someone else tries to take it and apply it to their own slightly different system it doesnt work as well, or if they try the same exact system they're not as good at identifying the right players. Kind of like how not many people could do a good job copying Chip Kelly's system exactly, only this one actually works.

I also imagine that a lot of information is stuff that he has in his head and doesn't share all of it with all his assistants. And also it works better because he enhances it with cheating.

I do have infinitely more respect, albeit grudgingly, for Belichick than I do for Brady, who if not for the biggest helping of right-place-right-time, crap-assed luck in the history of football, would probably just be some dickhead who backed up Matt Hasselbeck for a few seasons or something and then retired 10 years ago.

What's interesting about that is that it means the results the Patriots are achieving are totally not replicable. Until another ludicrous football savant comes along. While I'm a big fan of the idea of singular geniuses in a give field, is that what we're looking at here?

It's edging into that territory based on how folks are talking about it.

Shoes
02-04-2019, 11:39 PM
What's interesting about that is that it means the results the Patriots are achieving are totally not replicable. Until another ludicrous football savant comes along. While I'm a big fan of the idea of singular geniuses in a give field, is that what we're looking at here?

It's edging into that territory based on how folks are talking about it.

I think there are things you can replicate, other things you can't. It will be interesting to see how Belichick sons develop as coaches, the oldest seems to be following in his steps.

This article is over a year old

https://patriotswire.usatoday.com/2018/02/03/future-defensive-coordinator-steve-belichick-bills-son-details-his-career-aspirations/

st33lersguy
02-05-2019, 12:02 AM
Well, at least Edelman got Switzer all pumped up for next season.

https://twitter.com/Switz/status/1092226293511438336

what as the slot receiver who can only thrive inan elite offensive system with an elite qb?

steelreserve
02-05-2019, 01:21 AM
What's interesting about that is that it means the results the Patriots are achieving are totally not replicable. Until another ludicrous football savant comes along. While I'm a big fan of the idea of singular geniuses in a give field, is that what we're looking at here?

It's edging into that territory based on how folks are talking about it.


He is the first one to really figure out a style that works long-term under the current rules, that is to say the hard salary cap where there is an outside pressure that forces teams to engage in otherwise irrational behavior. I think most other coaches and GMs struggle with that, because the behavior that it rewards is pretty unnatural and not really intuitive if you are thinking about football only.

Having said that, while Belichick may have mastered the strategy for putting together the team that will give you the most spins of the wheel under the salary cap ... his best teams would get absolutely rolled by the all-time great teams, and most of them are also probably short of the best that other franchises have managed in the salary cap era. The difference is, they have a higher peak for a couple years thanks to fortunate timings and cheap contracts; then Mordor grinds on while they wear themselves out.

The helmet radio also helps A LOT ... I mean, every single playoff game going down to the wire, and it takes a lightning-strike unbelievable individual effort from their opponent at the end of the game to eliminate them ... every postseason game with guys suddenly wide open way down the field on the last couple of drives ... video game AI-style catch-up when it gets to two scores ... like one bad loss in 40 playoff games going back decades ... not just the Super Bowl but EVERY playoff game, and most important games in general ... doing EXACTLY what they need to get a bye week every season - I mean come on, last time playing on the first weekend of the playoffs in 2009 ... I don't buy it.

When you say, "gee whiz, it's almost like they knew exactly what play the other team was running!" ... over ... and over ... and over ... and over ... well, chances are pretty good that they actually did. Especially when there is evidence of just that. Get into the playoffs every year, and you will be in a lot of championship games when you know what's coming.

Like you said, it's not replicable. It's ludicrous. Almost hard to believe. Well, you got that right.

86WARD
02-05-2019, 04:53 AM
What's interesting about that is that it means the results the Patriots are achieving are totally not replicable. Until another ludicrous football savant comes along. While I'm a big fan of the idea of singular geniuses in a give field, is that what we're looking at here?

It's edging into that territory based on how folks are talking about it.

These players hit NE and they buy into the system, the coaches buy in to the system. It’s weird how these coaches leave to take head coaching jobs elsewhere and they fail miserably. You would think they would take routines, tips, tricks and other things they learned in NE and apply them where ever they were heading and maybe the personalities just aren’t Belichick and the players don’t buy in to it? Or maybe they try to add their own spin on it and that’s where it fails? I’m not sure what the correct answer is...

What we do know is that Belichick has a system and a culture in NE that players either buy in to or they walk. He doesn’t mess around with players that don’t get it like someone posted earlier...Bud Dupree, Artie Burns, Jarvis Jones...these guys wouldn’t last in NE if they weren’t getting it. Belichick isn’t afraid to cut ties (Randy Moss, Chandler Jones, Jamie Collins). He’s also not afraid to take a chance on a guy with a previous issues or distractions (Josh Gordon, Randy Moss, Corey Dillon). As long as those guys fit the system, he’s in. There’s no bullshit. He doesn’t care about measurable or any of that...he just knows...lol.

The Steelers on the other hand, milk some of these draft picks until they are bone dry. They pound them into the pavement until they are 100% positive the player doesn’t get it. Seems like they don’t recognize it as quickly sometimes and they waste valuable time for the next guy. Even the fans are in on that...how many times in the past few years have members here been fawning over the potential, the measurables, the upside of Cam Sutton? Hes garbage. He’s not a starting NFL CB...yet there’s still hope. Belichick doesn’t seem to waste time with “hope”. He gets the right player in the right position, regardless of draft status, regardless of pay, regardless of past accomplishments and gives them an opportunity to succeed and he does it better than anyone else.

86WARD
02-05-2019, 04:57 AM
He is the first one to really figure out a style that works long-term under the current rules, that is to say the hard salary cap where there is an outside pressure that forces teams to engage in otherwise irrational behavior. I think most other coaches and GMs struggle with that, because the behavior that it rewards is pretty unnatural and not really intuitive if you are thinking about football only.

Having said that, while Belichick may have mastered the strategy for putting together the team that will give you the most spins of the wheel under the salary cap ... his best teams would get absolutely rolled by the all-time great teams, and most of them are also probably short of the best that other franchises have managed in the salary cap era. The difference is, they have a higher peak for a couple years thanks to fortunate timings and cheap contracts; then Mordor grinds on while they wear themselves out.

The helmet radio also helps A LOT ... I mean, every single playoff game going down to the wire, and it takes a lightning-strike unbelievable individual effort from their opponent at the end of the game to eliminate them ... every postseason game with guys suddenly wide open way down the field on the last couple of drives ... video game AI-style catch-up when it gets to two scores ... like one bad loss in 40 playoff games going back decades ... not just the Super Bowl but EVERY playoff game, and most important games in general ... doing EXACTLY what they need to get a bye week every season - I mean come on, last time playing on the first weekend of the playoffs in 2009 ... I don't buy it.

When you say, "gee whiz, it's almost like they knew exactly what play the other team was running!" ... over ... and over ... and over ... and over ... well, chances are pretty good that they actually did. Especially when there is evidence of just that. Get into the playoffs every year, and you will be in a lot of championship games when you know what's coming.

Like you said, it's not replicable. It's ludicrous. Almost hard to believe. Well, you got that right.

Also helps that the Dolphins, Bills and Jets have agreed not to put up a fight whatsoever as long as the Patriots win the division and throw a victory their way on a rotating basis.

teegre
02-05-2019, 07:00 AM
Also helps that the Dolphins, Bills and Jets have agreed not to put up a fight whatsoever as long as the Patriots win the division and throw a victory their way on a rotating basis.

Most victories since Brady entered the NFL:

1. Taperiots 255
2. Steelers 212
6. Ravens 191
...
19. Jets
20. Dolphins
27. Bills

(Note: Admittedly, the Bengals are in the lower half, as well. But, most of those losses were in the early 2000s. The Bengals made the playoffs “six out of seven seasons” from 2009-2015.)

zulater
02-05-2019, 08:40 AM
Just going through the Patriots defensive stats for the SB and looking at their players, who they are, how they were acquired, it's amazing the overall lack of pedigree among them. Here's a team that drafts 28-32 every season, yet still manages to build a defensive backfield that is able to shut down the highest scoring team in the league when it matters most. Outside of UFA Stephon Gilmore they built a defense out of next to nothing! Obviously what it comes down to is having a good system, knowing how to find players that can learn and fit into that system, utilizing them correctly and game planning. Here's a team that struggles some early defensively (Lions game) but gets better as the season goes on.

Conversely in Pgh we have Mike Tomlin an alleged defensive coach, a defensive backs coach no less who can't identify a draft prospect to play in his secondary for over a decade now. His best db's all preceded him in Pgh (Troy and Ike). His best current DB came as a stroke of luck (Joe Haden) and signed with the Steelers to get back at his former team as much as anything. In other words as we all know Tomlin stinks as a defensive backs coach. He doesn't know what to look for and has a poor system that doesn't translate easy to the players he brings in.

You all like to blame Ben for most everything. Well I watched these playoffs and I didn't see any playoff qb's tossing a perfect game. Brady came through in the clutch no doubt. But he also had a defense that made stop after stop to preserve slim leads. How nice it must be to throw an interception on the opening drive and not have your defense see that as a reason to collapse and lay down for an opposing TD drive to put you in a position of playing from behind right off the bat. . How nice it must be to not score a single TD until the 4th quarter and manage to take a 10-3 lead. And better yet how great it must feel to have your defense take the field and force a turnover to preserve that lead as opposed to giving up the prerequisite matching TD the Steelers defense feels necessary to cede.

Anyway hopefully AJR was paying attention to these playoffs. Hopefully he saw that a defense can be built with Undrafted free agents, end of round home grown draft picks from various rounds, and a 'splash free agent" to top things off. There's no excuse for the schemeless mish mosh we continue to put out there that suffer mental breakdowns and physical lapses most every time the game is on the line!

Born2Steel
02-05-2019, 08:56 AM
People need to take a breath. Maybe it was the SB, but it was ONE game. Very little made sense during this game. Why was Gurley out? Why did McVay give up on Anderson so early? Why was Cooks running out routes? What happened to both teams offensively??? Was it defensive genius or lack of offensive play making? I thought it was a boring game. Not a defensive clinic as seems most on here think. Neither team did anything to earn the win. It was like watching a tennis match between 2 players that suck at serving. Just 3hrs of soft volley. Insane to me how anyone can use this game as a way to point out deficiency in the Steelers. This was just a terrible game.

zulater
02-05-2019, 09:31 AM
People need to take a breath. Maybe it was the SB, but it was ONE game. Very little made sense during this game. Why was Gurley out? Why did McVay give up on Anderson so early? Why was Cooks running out routes? What happened to both teams offensively??? Was it defensive genius or lack of offensive play making? I thought it was a boring game. Not a defensive clinic as seems most on here think. Neither team did anything to earn the win. It was like watching a tennis match between 2 players that suck at serving. Just 3hrs of soft volley. Insane to me how anyone can use this game as a way to point out deficiency in the Steelers. This was just a terrible game.

I saw a stat I never saw before on ESPN this morning. It said that the Rams receivers degree of separation in the SB was less than 2.5 yards which was the smallest it was all season for them. Now I'm not sure how they determine this? But the point the stat was making was their receivers weren't getting open! Which translates to me that the Patriots were in fact providing good coverage. So call it what you will. But to me this suggests maybe they know what the hell they're doing? Also the fact that they've gone to 3 straight SB's ( granted their defense sucked in last year's SB) tell's me this was not some sort of aberration. They don't deal in excuses. They deal in results. The fact is they have no secret pipeline for talent unavailable to the rest of the league. So someone must be doing something right.

Conversely the Steelers decade+ long drought of drafting or developing a single quality DB and the continued mental lapses and missed assignments shown in coverage can no longer be attributed to bad luck or drafting late. Not when you see teams like the Patriots and Seahawks successfully roll over a new secondary in the same time frame faced with similar or worse draft position.

Born2Steel
02-05-2019, 09:53 AM
I saw a stat I never saw before on ESPN this morning. It said that the Rams receivers degree of separation in the SB was less than 2.5 yards which was the smallest it was all season for them. Now I'm not sure how they determine this? But the point the stat was making was their receivers weren't getting open! Which translates to me that the Patriots were in fact providing good coverage. So call it what you will. But to me this suggests maybe they know what the hell they're doing? Also the fact that they've gone to 3 straight SB's ( granted their defense sucked in last year's SB) tell's me this was not some sort of aberration. They don't deal in excuses. They deal in results. The fact is they have no secret pipeline for talent unavailable to the rest of the league. So someone must be doing something right.

Conversely the Steelers decade+ long drought of drafting or developing a single quality DB and the continued mental lapses and missed assignments shown in coverage can no longer be attributed to bad luck or drafting late. Not when you see teams like the Patriots and Seahawks successfully roll over a new secondary in the same time frame faced with similar or worse draft position.

I thought we were discussing the SB. The SB was a terrible game offensively, period. Both teams were terrible with the ball.

I still fail to see how anything another team has done or has failed to do is an indictment on the Steelers. The Patriots beat out 15 teams when the make it to the SB. Bill may be the BEST coach in football today. That doesn’t equal other coaches, including Tomlin and co, are trash as coaches. Not everything reflects directly back on us.

zulater
02-05-2019, 10:11 AM
I thought we were discussing the SB. The SB was a terrible game offensively, period. Both teams were terrible with the ball.

I still fail to see how anything another team has done or has failed to do is an indictment on the Steelers. The Patriots beat out 15 teams when the make it to the SB. Bill may be the BEST coach in football today. That doesn’t equal other coaches, including Tomlin and co, are trash as coaches. Not everything reflects directly back on us.

There's already a thread in the NFL forum concerning the SB. I read the title of this thread to mean how the SB relates to the Steelers.

Born2Steel
02-05-2019, 10:23 AM
There's already a thread in the NFL forum concerning the SB. I read the title of this thread to mean how the SB relates to the Steelers.


And you may be 100% correct. I may be wrong. Either way the SB does not “relate” to the Steelers. The Steelers didn’t play THAT game. The way those 2 offenses played the Steelers would have gotten number7 fairly easily, IMHO. My reaction to that game as a Steeler(fan), is it was a bad game. I think the defenses were made to look better than they actually are because of poor play by the offenses. I think the Steelers offense would have fared much better. With AB of course.

steelreserve
02-05-2019, 10:50 AM
Most victories since Brady entered the NFL:

1. Taperiots 255
2. Steelers 212
6. Ravens 191
...
19. Jets
20. Dolphins
27. Bills

(Note: Admittedly, the Bengals are in the lower half, as well. But, most of those losses were in the early 2000s. The Bengals made the playoffs “six out of seven seasons” from 2009-2015.)

Hey, whaddya ya know, at least double or triple the gap between other once-in-a-generation teams and their closest competition.

http://mcubed.net/nfl/fw1970.shtml
http://mcubed.net/nfl/fw1980.shtml
http://mcubed.net/nfl/fw1990.shtml

Golly gee, another statistical outlier that's a full standard deviation or three outside the realm of probability. Just like the lack of fumbles before they got caught messing with the footballs. What another incredible co-inky-dink, surely the only explanation is just that they're SO GREAT.


Insane to me how anyone can use this game as a way to point out deficiency in the Steelers. This was just a terrible game.

The Steelers' deficiency was pointed out by them not being there, or in the playoffs at all for that matter. The pinnacle of competition was this clown show, the league in general is so weak that the Patriots basically sleepwalked into a championship ... I mean, we got beat out by THAT? Weren't even good enough to be in the discussion? Really emphasizes what a sorry showing it was by this team. But nope, keep piling up that pretty-good regular season winning percentage and drafting super-athletic linebackers and defensive backs who don't know shit.

Steeler-in-west
02-05-2019, 11:06 AM
Well, you have to be better than average to make it ... But I thought that's what we were supposed to be.

Like, I realize 60% (actually 62.5%) is an overly simplified way of looking at it - but on the other hand, maybe not.

For all intents and purposes, you can throw out a bunch of teams like the Browns, Redskins, Lions, Raiders, Bucs, Bills, Jets, Dolphins ... they essentially wasted an entire decade and gave their chances to one of the other teams to be in it more than once. (The last three, in particular, went above and beyond to hand their chances directly to one particular team). What you have really got are about 20-24 teams competing for 20 spots ... those teams can also be more or less split into a top and a bottom tier - I mean, you're giving the benefit of the doubt to teams like the Bengals and the Texans, which is pretty questionable ... and other teams who made it once and sucked for 8 or 9 out of the 10 years (49ers, Cardinals) are on the list by default.

So are we supposed to be in the top tier or the bottom tier? Either way, it sucks. Top tier means we've wasted way more opportunities than we should. Bottom tier means - what the fuck have we been doing for a decade, if we're not more than marginal contenders, we need to change our approach.

Either one is a pretty poor outcome if the same people have been running the show for 10 years. You've been coaching the 49ers for a couple seasons, to a certain extent you can say "it was like that when I got here." A decade is long enough that there are no excuses. Things change enough for even the worst team in the league to be competing for championships if they make the right moves. In fact, the entire system is set up to enable that. What's our excuse?

Regarding the AFC east, should’ve kept Baltimore (Ravens) in the east. That probably cuts down on the Patsies success.

Regarding us. Given our talent, we definitely were considered top tier, so if there is a poster team in the NFL that has been underachieving- were it. We definitely had a couple SB appearances in us, at least, in these last 8-9 years with the killer B’s.

Born2Steel
02-05-2019, 11:55 AM
Hey, whaddya ya know, at least double or triple the gap between other once-in-a-generation teams and their closest competition.

http://mcubed.net/nfl/fw1970.shtml
http://mcubed.net/nfl/fw1980.shtml
http://mcubed.net/nfl/fw1990.shtml

Golly gee, another statistical outlier that's a full standard deviation or three outside the realm of probability. Just like the lack of fumbles before they got caught messing with the footballs. What another incredible co-inky-dink, surely the only explanation is just that they're SO GREAT.



The Steelers' deficiency was pointed out by them not being there, or in the playoffs at all for that matter. The pinnacle of competition was this clown show, the league in general is so weak that the Patriots basically sleepwalked into a championship ... I mean, we got beat out by THAT? Weren't even good enough to be in the discussion? Really emphasizes what a sorry showing it was by this team. But nope, keep piling up that pretty-good regular season winning percentage and drafting super-athletic linebackers and defensive backs who don't know shit.

OK. What does that have to do with the SB game? It is one game and had nothing to do with the Steeler’s season. The Steelers beat the Patriots. That’s one of the 9 wins. Is it the fault of the Steelers that other teams were unable to beat the Pats in the playoffs? Did the Pats or Rams keep the Steelers from making the playoffs? Your points are all loser tears and looking for somebody to blame.

steelreserve
02-05-2019, 12:35 PM
OK. What does that have to do with the SB game? It is one game and had nothing to do with the Steeler’s season. The Steelers beat the Patriots. That’s one of the 9 wins. Is it the fault of the Steelers that other teams were unable to beat the Pats in the playoffs? Did the Pats or Rams keep the Steelers from making the playoffs? Your points are all loser tears and looking for somebody to blame.

The point (if you had read any of what I said) is that the level of competition was terrible this year, and we couldn't even muster the bare minimum to make the playoffs in a shitty AFC field. It was a disappointing, underachieving season and the only way we could have ended up where we did was to have none of our shit together at all. Are you stupid, or did you just not read the post you were responding to?

Would've been great if someone else had managed to knock off the evil empire on their own, but that was so completely not the point of any of that.

86WARD
02-05-2019, 12:50 PM
I’d be very curious to see the Steelers WRs separation stats. I feel like at times they were pretty horrible and at other times extremely good.

steelreserve
02-05-2019, 01:12 PM
I’d be very curious to see the Steelers WRs separation stats. I feel like at times they were pretty horrible and at other times extremely good.

They were really good except when they weren't.

Born2Steel
02-05-2019, 01:47 PM
The point (if you had read any of what I said) is that the level of competition was terrible this year, and we couldn't even muster the bare minimum to make the playoffs in a shitty AFC field. It was a disappointing, underachieving season and the only way we could have ended up where we did was to have none of our shit together at all. Are you stupid, or did you just not read the post you were responding to?

Would've been great if someone else had managed to knock off the evil empire on their own, but that was so completely not the point of any of that.

I may be stupid AND a poor reader. Doesn’t change the fact that the SB has nothing to do with the state of the Steelers. The state of the Steelers is why they weren’t there, but had no bearing on the game itself. None.

steelreserve
02-05-2019, 03:18 PM
I may be stupid AND a poor reader. Doesn’t change the fact that the SB has nothing to do with the state of the Steelers. The state of the Steelers is why they weren’t there, but had no bearing on the game itself. None.

You're right, the Steelers had nothing to do with the game. The game was, however, a very timely reflection on the state of the Steelers.

"THIS is how low the bar was, and you couldn't even manage that. In fact, you couldn't even qualify for the competition to clear the bar. You must've really fucked up."

And THAT summarizes the 2018 Pittsburgh Steelers.

NCSteeler
02-05-2019, 04:24 PM
Huh? I can see some of that. There are clearly teams whose goal for a given year is not winning a SB, but creating and following a path to improvement.

But then you have teams like the Saints, Packers, Cowboys, Chiefs, Steelers, Chargers, and list whoever else you want that haven't really been in a SB during your window either.

I just think that this board in particular wildly overestimates how easy it is to make a SB run. Literally everything has to go right for a team to pull it off. One way to look at it is that "Team X has totally failed to make and win a SB in 10 years so those in charge are incompetent morons." Another is, "Wow, most NFL teams run through boom and bust cycles with far more bust years. This team has been a consistent winner and in the conversation for possible SB teams almost every year for 2 decades now. That's pretty much unheard of."

Perspectives are individual and can readily and reasonably vary. I'm gonna stick with an optimistic one and enjoy the fact that the team I root for hasn't been consigned to wandering the NFL wilderness for some time now. No one else has to take the same viewpoint.This team hasn't been a legit contender in some time now. It's pretty clear they seem to be right there but when it counts they don't get it done, mistake prone, sloppy football.



Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

NCSteeler
02-05-2019, 04:28 PM
I bet that is part of it - particularly because their roster is so many new parts each season and even between the end of the season and the beginning. The constant need to integrate new players and adjust roles likely drives a big need to consistently monitor fitness and conditioning.

Just to be a bit of a jerk -- lets not lose sight of the fact that the gritty, team first, Superbowl MVP was suspended for 4 games for violating the PED policy. I am growing really tired of the need to attribute the Patriots run of success to some mystical aura of leadership and grittiness. It is pretty darn simple. The have the best QB on the planet for the entire run. An offense catered to his strengths. And a coach who is able to devise and install a defensive system on an almost weekly basis.

For instance, the Patriots played a predominate amount of man coverage all 2018. Then last night they played almost all zone. And looked like the best zone cover team in football doing it. They did this to counter the core concepts of McVay's offense. In turn, McVay had nothing. I mean I guess that is a bit of leadership and experience, but it is mostly knowing that you better show up in the SB with new crap. The Pats brought new crap to the SB and the Rams trotted out the same old stuff the Pats had spent 2 weeks watching on film. Not mysticism. In contrast, last year the Eagles ran new stuff and lo and behold they beat the gritty leadership filled automatons of football.

I guess my point can be boiled down to this: The Patriots do not win because they have found some secret sauce to roster construction, team management, or physical fitness. They have realized that if you give anyone 2 weeks to plan, they can come up with something to beat what you already have on film. So show up with some unexpected shit combined with 2-3 things that you can do so damn well it doesn't matter what the other team does or knows. That is why the Pats never blow anyone out in a SB. They showed up last night with a zone scheme to make Goff have to anticipate - just like someone posted, Goff sucks at that. Then on offense they showed up with 3 plays. 2 power runs and that play they ran 3 straight times on the TD drive. The Rams failed to have ANY answers for that. Last year the Eagles did. Who knows what next year brings.

But in the meantime we will hear about culture and leadership. Why do we not hear about how the Patriots are just really really really good at football? Or maybe identifying and exposing the weak link in the Rams right guard over and over and over again is leadership, but I don't think that is what people are talking about...So what does Tomlin bring to the table. He's got arguably no worse then the tenth best QB in the league, but zero plan to beat the other guy

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pczach
02-05-2019, 06:14 PM
Huh? I can see some of that. There are clearly teams whose goal for a given year is not winning a SB, but creating and following a path to improvement.

But then you have teams like the Saints, Packers, Cowboys, Chiefs, Steelers, Chargers, and list whoever else you want that haven't really been in a SB during your window either.

I just think that this board in particular wildly overestimates how easy it is to make a SB run. Literally everything has to go right for a team to pull it off. One way to look at it is that "Team X has totally failed to make and win a SB in 10 years so those in charge are incompetent morons." Another is, "Wow, most NFL teams run through boom and bust cycles with far more bust years. This team has been a consistent winner and in the conversation for possible SB teams almost every year for 2 decades now. That's pretty much unheard of."

Perspectives are individual and can readily and reasonably vary. I'm gonna stick with an optimistic one and enjoy the fact that the team I root for hasn't been consigned to wandering the NFL wilderness for some time now. No one else has to take the same viewpoint.



It's extremely easy to make it to the Super Bowl, particularly in the AFC. You only need to have Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Ben Roethlisberger.

Here are the quarterbacks in the AFC championship game since 2003:


2003-2004: Tom Brady vs Peyton Manning
2004-2005: Tom Brady vs Ben Roethlisberger
2005-2006: Ben Roethlisberger vs Jake Plummer
2006-2007: Peyton Manning vs Tom Brady
2007-2008: Tom Brady vs Philip Rivers
2008-2009: Ben Reothlisberger vs Joe Flacco
2009-2010: Peyton Manning vs Mark Sanchez
2010-2011: Ben Roethlisberger vs Mark Sanchez
2011-2012: Tom Brady vs Joe Flacco
2012-2013: Joe Flacco vs Tom Brady
2013-2014: Peyton Manning vs Tom Brady
2014-2015: Tom Brady vs Andrew Luck
2015-2016: Peyton Manning vs Tom Brady
2016-2017: Tom Brady vs Ben Roethlisberger
2017-2018: Tom Brady vs Blake Bortles
2018-2019: Tom Brady vs Patrick Mahomes

These are the AFC's Super Bowl quarterbacks in that time:


2003: Tom Brady, Patriots.
2004: Tom Brady, Patriots.
2005: Ben Roethlisberger, Steelers.
2006: Peyton Manning, Colts.
2007: Tom Brady, Patriots.
2008: Ben Roethlisberger, Steelers.
2009: Peyton Manning, Colts.
2010: Ben Roethlisberger, Steelers.
2011: Tom Brady, Patriots.
2012: Joe Flacco, Ravens.
2013: Peyton Manning, Broncos.
2014: Tom Brady, Patriots.
2015: Peyton Manning, Broncos.
2016: Tom Brady, Patriots.
2017: Tom Brady, Patriots.
2018: Tom Brady, Patriots.

So yeah.....getting to the Super Bowl is real easy. :thumbsup:

pepsyman1
02-06-2019, 12:36 AM
It's extremely easy to make it to the Super Bowl, particularly in the AFC. You only need to have Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Ben Roethlisberger.

Here are the quarterbacks in the AFC championship game since 2003:


2003-2004: Tom Brady vs Peyton Manning
2004-2005: Tom Brady vs Ben Roethlisberger
2005-2006: Ben Roethlisberger vs Jake Plummer
2006-2007: Peyton Manning vs Tom Brady
2007-2008: Tom Brady vs Philip Rivers
2008-2009: Ben Reothlisberger vs Joe Flacco
2009-2010: Peyton Manning vs Mark Sanchez
2010-2011: Ben Roethlisberger vs Mark Sanchez
2011-2012: Tom Brady vs Joe Flacco
2012-2013: Joe Flacco vs Tom Brady
2013-2014: Peyton Manning vs Tom Brady
2014-2015: Tom Brady vs Andrew Luck
2015-2016: Peyton Manning vs Tom Brady
2016-2017: Tom Brady vs Ben Roethlisberger
2017-2018: Tom Brady vs Blake Bortles
2018-2019: Tom Brady vs Patrick Mahomes

These are the AFC's Super Bowl quarterbacks in that time:


2003: Tom Brady, Patriots.
2004: Tom Brady, Patriots.
2005: Ben Roethlisberger, Steelers.
2006: Peyton Manning, Colts.
2007: Tom Brady, Patriots.
2008: Ben Roethlisberger, Steelers.
2009: Peyton Manning, Colts.
2010: Ben Roethlisberger, Steelers.
2011: Tom Brady, Patriots.
2012: Joe Flacco, Ravens.
2013: Peyton Manning, Broncos.
2014: Tom Brady, Patriots.
2015: Peyton Manning, Broncos.
2016: Tom Brady, Patriots.
2017: Tom Brady, Patriots.
2018: Tom Brady, Patriots.

So yeah.....getting to the Super Bowl is real easy. :thumbsup:


I think this list is exactly why so many Steelers fans (and obviously people on this board) get so frustrated. We've GOT one of the guys that can get us to the Superbowl...there aren't many and it feels like most of the last decade is just wasted opportunity. When you look at the teams that have been to the Superbowl over the last decade, how many teams can you remember that have had more talent then the Steelers have had? We've been inadequate in the secondary. Where else? We've had great players all over this team and it feels like the results don't match up with the talent we see taking the field. On that level, I think Tomlin is a disappointment. It just feels like we've missed a window that a stronger coach could have really exploited.

teegre
02-06-2019, 06:48 AM
So what does Tomlin bring to the table. He's got arguably no worse then the tenth best QB in the league, but zero plan to beat the other guy

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Tomlin has beaten them the past two times he’s played them... :noidea:

#Jessecaughtit

steelerdude15
02-06-2019, 10:39 AM
I think this list is exactly why so many Steelers fans (and obviously people on this board) get so frustrated. We've GOT one of the guys that can get us to the Superbowl...there aren't many and it feels like most of the last decade is just wasted opportunity. When you look at the teams that have been to the Superbowl over the last decade, how many teams can you remember that have had more talent then the Steelers have had? We've been inadequate in the secondary. Where else? We've had great players all over this team and it feels like the results don't match up with the talent we see taking the field. On that level, I think Tomlin is a disappointment. It just feels like we've missed a window that a stronger coach could have really exploited.

Don't forget about the God awful offensive line we had before they started investing high picks into it. :chuckle:

steelreserve
02-06-2019, 11:40 AM
Don't forget about the God awful offensive line we had before they started investing high picks into it. :chuckle:

And after they started investing high picks into it. It was all first- and second-round picks and still sucked until Munchak came in and got their act together. Same guys.

Hey, that's exactly the same problem we have with the secondary! It's almost like there's a coaching problem or something.

But no, that could never be it.

Rotorhead
02-06-2019, 12:54 PM
As far as the SB goes, the legit team from the NFC would have trounced the Pats IMO (experience mattered here).

As for the Steelers, this year was the best opportunity for them to get another title (given the shit show of the SB), however lack of preparedness doomed the season before the playoffs. The Pats secret is simple to me, they have their players do their jobs, they make very few mistakes. They know how to scheme on offense to methodically move the ball and on defense to take away your top player and best plays. We were able to beat them this year because our second best player was great (Juju) and we had a good running game and passing game (we had no issues moving the ball on the ground or through the air, and when running we could run wide, cutback or run straight through them). They couldn’t simply take away AB and stop the cutback run (like they did against the Rams) to stop us. Conversely, we had a plan to stop the run and slow the receivers, but let’s be honest, their Off was terrible most of this season, and if the Rams weren’t so new to the SB (experience matters) they would have won that game.

As for my thought on the reason we failed this season . . . Coaching. Tomlin has taken this talented team and done nothing. Penalties are up every year, discipline is worse every year. Talent is getting worse with every draft miss. The confusion on the defense I’ve side of the ball is ridiculous, how do the players still not know where they are supposed to be after 2 years (and the Pats can install an entire new def in 2 weeks). When we lost Shazier late, our defense suffered and we never recovered, but to not have a plan to replace him after the world saw the drop off is inexcusable. To once again not improve the worst unit on our team (def backfield) is inexcusable. This is all on Tomlin. Our kicker lost us more than one game, if there isn’t a plan to replace Boz, it is on Tomlin. If we don’t have a replacement for Shazier and Burns this off season, it is on Tomlin.

Mojouw
02-06-2019, 01:32 PM
Penalties have essentially been between 5 and 6 a game since the dawn of time or at least 2003 -- https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/penalties-per-game?date=2004-02-02
A few years they spike to around 7 and a few years they dip to around 4 in both the Cowher and Tomlin eras, but they hover between 5 and 6 per game.

Also, having a crappy plan or a plan that did not work out (Bostic + Draft Pick + Burnett = 3 safety scheme/Dimebacker replacement for Shazier) is not the same as having no plan. The two are very different. Additionally, few were predicting that NONE of the 1st tier ILBs would be available at the Steelers pick. I realize that in hindsight, Darius Leonard looks like the obvious answer, but if Edmunds was viewed as a 'reach' in the 1st, I shudder to think about the response would've had the Steelers taken Leonard in the first. Considering that the Colts taking him in the 2nd was considered a reach and more than a few places howled in derision at the pick. And yes, I am aware that many were a massive fan of Leonard and accurately predicted that he would be an impact NFL player. But it was a reasonable gamble that Leonard would be there at the Steelers 2nd pick.

Going in to 2019 some observers thought DB would be a strength of the team, including more than a few on this board. Sutton, Allen, and Burns were all viewed as players that could take big steps forward. Many thought Sensabaugh wouldn't make the roster. The rookies were talked about in exciting terms, even Marcus Allen. Additionally, Burnett was viewed as a massive upgrade and several reputable outlets thought he was one of the best FA signings across the league. After all, Burnett had just finished two seasons (where when healthy--the key issue) he was a jack of all trades playmaker in the secondary for the Packers. So there was a dedicated effort through FA, the draft, and internal development to create competition and improved play in the secondary. Let's not forget that the Steelers made sure Joe Haden never took another visit last year.

Again, I don't agree with every move the team made and there is plenty of room for criticism. But the constant 20/20 hindsight nature of the postings are more than a bit frustrating. If the seemingly random changes to the defensive coaching staff do not lead to significant changes in approach in 2019, I'm out on this entire staff. I fail to understand how the same staff that came up with Patriots and Falcons game plans also rolled out the Chargers and Chiefs game plans. If whoever came up with and implemented the good game plan is now in charge of doing the same moving forward, maybe we stop seeing so many inexplicable defensive alignments. The frustrating thing is that, as fans, we simply don't have enough facts to understand why the defensive approach is seemingly so Jekyll and Hyde.

But to just keep leveling hyperbolic charge after charge that flies in the face of facts and are almost entirely based on looking back with perfect knowledge is not interesting.

NCSteeler
02-06-2019, 06:49 PM
Penalties have essentially been between 5 and 6 a game since the dawn of time or at least 2003 -- https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/penalties-per-game?date=2004-02-02
A few years they spike to around 7 and a few years they dip to around 4 in both the Cowher and Tomlin eras, but they hover between 5 and 6 per game.

Also, having a crappy plan or a plan that did not work out (Bostic + Draft Pick + Burnett = 3 safety scheme/Dimebacker replacement for Shazier) is not the same as having no plan. The two are very different. Additionally, few were predicting that NONE of the 1st tier ILBs would be available at the Steelers pick. I realize that in hindsight, Darius Leonard looks like the obvious answer, but if Edmunds was viewed as a 'reach' in the 1st, I shudder to think about the response would've had the Steelers taken Leonard in the first. Considering that the Colts taking him in the 2nd was considered a reach and more than a few places howled in derision at the pick. And yes, I am aware that many were a massive fan of Leonard and accurately predicted that he would be an impact NFL player. But it was a reasonable gamble that Leonard would be there at the Steelers 2nd pick.

Going in to 2019 some observers thought DB would be a strength of the team, including more than a few on this board. Sutton, Allen, and Burns were all viewed as players that could take big steps forward. Many thought Sensabaugh wouldn't make the roster. The rookies were talked about in exciting terms, even Marcus Allen. Additionally, Burnett was viewed as a massive upgrade and several reputable outlets thought he was one of the best FA signings across the league. After all, Burnett had just finished two seasons (where when healthy--the key issue) he was a jack of all trades playmaker in the secondary for the Packers. So there was a dedicated effort through FA, the draft, and internal development to create competition and improved play in the secondary. Let's not forget that the Steelers made sure Joe Haden never took another visit last year.

Again, I don't agree with every move the team made and there is plenty of room for criticism. But the constant 20/20 hindsight nature of the postings are more than a bit frustrating. If the seemingly random changes to the defensive coaching staff do not lead to significant changes in approach in 2019, I'm out on this entire staff. I fail to understand how the same staff that came up with Patriots and Falcons game plans also rolled out the Chargers and Chiefs game plans. If whoever came up with and implemented the good game plan is now in charge of doing the same moving forward, maybe we stop seeing so many inexplicable defensive alignments. The frustrating thing is that, as fans, we simply don't have enough facts to understand why the defensive approach is seemingly so Jekyll and Hyde.

But to just keep leveling hyperbolic charge after charge that flies in the face of facts and are almost entirely based on looking back with perfect knowledge is not interesting.I think the reason is that there's a plan, it's just not game specific, so some days it looks awesome and some days it looks like shit. It seems very hard to explain you beat the Patriots soundly and get whooped by raiders

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86WARD
02-07-2019, 10:30 AM
I think the reason is that there's a plan, it's just not game specific, so some days it looks awesome and some days it looks like shit. It seems very hard to explain you beat the Patriots soundly and get whooped by raiders

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This has been my theory for a couple seasons now and have been vocal about it in several threads.

I’m not convinced these guys watch game film of their opponents on a weekly basis. I think they develop a game plan based on what they want to do and like you state, some times it works and others it looks like shit.

You can really see it on offense as the game plan is pretty much shit until Ben starts improvising and then they start moving...same on defense.

I can’t think of an example but there have definitely been times when teams have had a weakness and the Steelers just don’t attack it.

Mojouw
02-07-2019, 11:31 AM
I think the reason is that there's a plan, it's just not game specific, so some days it looks awesome and some days it looks like shit. It seems very hard to explain you beat the Patriots soundly and get whooped by raiders

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This has been my theory for a couple seasons now and have been vocal about it in several threads.

I’m not convinced these guys watch game film of their opponents on a weekly basis. I think they develop a game plan based on what they want to do and like you state, some times it works and others it looks like shit.

You can really see it on offense as the game plan is pretty much shit until Ben starts improvising and then they start moving...same on defense.

I can’t think of an example but there have definitely been times when teams have had a weakness and the Steelers just don’t attack it.

I can see where you both are coming from. I just find it hard to believe that the Steelers would no be instituting a practice that most decent high school teams have been doing for like all of living memory.

Again, I have no real reason to believe this but I find it simply totally unbelievable that an NFL team would watch no film on a weekly basis and not have a tailored game plan for each week. Every team in the league has been doing that since the dawn of the league. I feel like if the Steelers weren't we would've heard about it by now.

NCSteeler
02-07-2019, 11:34 AM
I can see where you both are coming from. I just find it hard to believe that the Steelers would no be instituting a practice that most decent high school teams have been doing for like all of living memory.

Again, I have no real reason to believe this but I find it simply totally unbelievable that an NFL team would watch no film on a weekly basis and not have a tailored game plan for each week. Every team in the league has been doing that since the dawn of the league. I feel like if the Steelers weren't we would've heard about it by now.I agree they have to be doing something. But it's just hard to see in the games

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steelreserve
02-07-2019, 01:21 PM
I can see where you both are coming from. I just find it hard to believe that the Steelers would no be instituting a practice that most decent high school teams have been doing for like all of living memory.

Again, I have no real reason to believe this but I find it simply totally unbelievable that an NFL team would watch no film on a weekly basis and not have a tailored game plan for each week. Every team in the league has been doing that since the dawn of the league. I feel like if the Steelers weren't we would've heard about it by now.

It's almost impossible that they wouldn't be doing it ... on the other hand, is their plan any good? At least better than the opponent's plan against THEM? Do they have a backup plan if it's not working, and can they identify the necessary triggers to change it in-game and make adjustments on the fly - or only at halftime? Are the players well-trained and comfortable enough with the plan to make those same adjustments work?

All things that go into "gameplanning," and honestly from the look of things, we may spend plenty of time planning and looking at film, but still be whiffing on one or more elements that are important in order for your plan to work.

Mojouw
02-07-2019, 01:34 PM
It's almost impossible that they wouldn't be doing it ... on the other hand, is their plan any good? At least better than the opponent's plan against THEM? Do they have a backup plan if it's not working, and can they identify the necessary triggers to change it in-game and make adjustments on the fly - or only at halftime? Are the players well-trained and comfortable enough with the plan to make those same adjustments work?

All things that go into "gameplanning," and honestly from the look of things, we may spend plenty of time planning and looking at film, but still be whiffing on one or more elements that are important in order for your plan to work.

Certainly. It is possible to engage in the proper process and get crap results. When I watch this team play, the biggest problems seem to be along the lines of some guys are thinking so much they can't actually play football and other guys know exactly what to do but are not able to do it. Either way, you come up short. Combine that with the semi-regular clunker of an idea from the coaching staff and it is gonna look bad on occassion.

86WARD
02-07-2019, 02:38 PM
I can see where you both are coming from. I just find it hard to believe that the Steelers would no be instituting a practice that most decent high school teams have been doing for like all of living memory.

Again, I have no real reason to believe this but I find it simply totally unbelievable that an NFL team would watch no film on a weekly basis and not have a tailored game plan for each week. Every team in the league has been doing that since the dawn of the league. I feel like if the Steelers weren't we would've heard about it by now.

I’d like to believe they do the proper film review and think it’s virtually impossible that they don’t but the results and visuals just aren’t there...

AtlantaDan
02-07-2019, 02:45 PM
I think the reason is that there's a plan, it's just not game specific, so some days it looks awesome and some days it looks like shit. It seems very hard to explain you beat the Patriots soundly and get whooped by raiders

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Apparently they had a game specific plan for the Patriots and someone watched film of the Titans-Pats game in coming up with it.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/12/nfl-steelers-patriots-film-review-tom-brady-gameplan/amp

Mojouw
02-07-2019, 03:05 PM
Apparently they had a game specific plan for the Patriots and someone watched film of the Titans-Pats game in coming up with it.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/12/nfl-steelers-patriots-film-review-tom-brady-gameplan/amp

Those 3 games (Titans, Steelers, and Rams) have revealed a new fatal flaw for the current Pats offense. They can't move the ball if you force them outside. Whether it is due to lack of the right kind of reciecers or Brady losing something off his fastball, if you can shit them down in the middle of the field and force the to work along the sidelines, the pats misfire badly.

86WARD
02-07-2019, 03:25 PM
So it’s surprising no one has mentioned what the Patriots did on offense (for most of the seconds and half of season) they’re pretty much running the Cowboys from the 90s Offense with a Power I run game in which They are dominating the smaller speed rushers and mixing a short passing game in with it. Belichick has pretty much changed his philosophies to go against the grain as teams and their defenses are building to defend the pass, he’s concentrating on a run game with a FB lead.

The Steelers touched on this a bit but didn’t continue to use. Steelers have one of the few FBs in the league and a pretty good one at that yet they refuse to use on a regular basis? Pretty confident that the Steelers should follow the Patriots lead and at the same time maybe try to get some larger/faster personnel. One measure or the other isn’t good enough anymore...