Tomlin on the hot seat?

[Fire Goodell]

Here's an article about the Steelers hiring a coach to 'help' Tomlin with clock management and challenges. Knowing that the Steelers aren't a knee-jerk organization that will fire a coach after 1,2,3+ bad seasons, in my opinion, this seems like a message from Rooney saying that Tomlin isn't gettiing it done. Is this the beginning of the end for Tomlin if he can't turn it around?

https://triblive.com/sports/steelers/14511130-74/rooney-open-to-getting-help-for-tomlin-in-dealing-with-replay-clock

[Mach1]

If he isn't getting it done get someone who can.

[Mojouw]

Quick Google search reveals that New England, Tampa, Rams, and a few others that are not spelled out have all been hiring coaches to take on this gameday task starting in about 2015-16 or so.

I guess it is good to see the team identifying and adjusting to league-wide trends.

Now about defending those empty backfield offensive sets...

[Fire Goodell]

Quick Google search reveals that New England, Tampa, Rams, and a few others that are not spelled out have all been hiring coaches to take on this gameday task starting in about 2015-16 or so.

I guess it is good to see the team identifying and adjusting to league-wide trends.

Now about defending those empty backfield offensive sets...

Ah didn't know that, nevermind then

[ALLD]

Tomlin needs to hire a HC to take over his coaching duties so he can concentrate on practicing gameday platitudes and cleaning his sunglasses.

[Shoes]

Best thing Rooney said. “When you miss the playoffs, nobody gets absolved — coaches, players, scouts, front office,” Rooney said. “I think everybody knows we need to be better, including Mike (Tomlin)

[Michael]

Here's an article about the Steelers hiring a coach to 'help' Tomlin with clock management and challenges. Knowing that the Steelers aren't a knee-jerk organization that will fire a coach after 1,2,3+ bad seasons, in my opinion, this seems like a message from Rooney saying that Tomlin isn't gettiing it done. Is this the beginning of the end for Tomlin if he can't turn it around?

https://triblive.com/sports/steelers/14511130-74/rooney-open-to-getting-help-for-tomlin-in-dealing-with-replay-clock

YOu might be right when you say the" beginning of the end". I accept that reality that Rooney is going to provide a support system for Tomlin. Effectively transferring responsibilities from him. My question now who is going to provide the locker room & practice field behavior & culture. Ideally I would like to see the leadership come from the players. This includes Big Ben . Steven A Smith please shut your hyper mouth up.

[Mojouw]

Ah didn't know that, nevermind then

Yeah. I didn't either. Just ocurred to me that the Steelers are not usually the most innovative place in the world. Turns out it is a "fresh" idea that is meandering through the league.

[steelerdude15]

I don't think its the beginning of the end. I think the Steelers will continue to stick with Tomlin for a long time because of what Art said regarding his contract. He was asked if Mike is going to get an contract extension and he said we'll deal with it when we normally do which is always during training camp. I'm assuming they're going to extend his contract this upcoming summer.

[st33lersguy]

They miss the playoffs, Tomlin has got to go

[smokin3000gt]

Does anybody have the W/L record or winning % of current head coaches in the league handy?

[NCSteeler]

Carolina a d Atlanta are aboth hiring game day assistant

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

[AtlantaDan]

Does anybody have the W/L record or winning % of current head coaches in the league handy?

https://www.footballdb.com/coaches/index.html

Column headings in the linked table can sort rankings by games, wins, and winning %

[steelreserve]

They've officially served notice that they're getting ready to get ready to maybe get ready to possibly think about getting ready to maybe, down the road at some point, think about making a coaching move one day in the future.

Warning shots have been fired - be warned! The seat is hot. Oh, you would not believe how hot the seat is. No seat is hotter than this seat. If we don't turn it around in 2019, you sure probably wouldn't want to be worrying about your job like Tomlin might possibly need to maybe worry about his one day. The stakes are high this year. Yes, the highest stakes there are. Don't win at least 8 games and they're liable to fire the janitor. That's the way to coax out some better performance, because notice will definitely have been served HARD.

[Shoes]

They've officially served notice that they're getting ready to get ready to maybe get ready to possibly think about getting ready to maybe, down the road at some point, think about making a coaching move one day in the future.

Warning shots have been fired - be warned! The seat is hot. Oh, you would not believe how hot the seat is. No seat is hotter than this seat. If we don't turn it around in 2019, you sure probably wouldn't want to be worrying about your job like Tomlin might possibly need to maybe worry about his one day. The stakes are high this year. Yes, the highest stakes there are. Don't win at least 8 games and they're liable to fire the janitor. That's the way to coax out some better performance, because notice will definitely have been served HARD.

:lol:

[teegre]

They've officially served notice that they're getting ready to get ready to maybe get ready to possibly think about getting ready to maybe, down the road at some point, think about making a coaching move one day in the future.

Warning shots have been fired - be warned! The seat is hot. Oh, you would not believe how hot the seat is. No seat is hotter than this seat. If we don't turn it around in 2019, you sure probably wouldn't want to be worrying about your job like Tomlin might possibly need to maybe worry about his one day. The stakes are high this year. Yes, the highest stakes there are. Don't win at least 8 games and they're liable to fire the janitor. That's the way to coax out some better performance, because notice will definitely have been served HARD.


https://vimeo.com/110026219

Hmmm... the video won’t embed. Oh well. Here’s the link.

https://vimeo.com/110026219

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

https://www.footballdb.com/coaches/index.html

Column headings in the linked table can sort rankings by games, wins, and winning %

Meh, so Tomlin is 2nd only to Belicheat in winning percentage, for those coaches with at least 5 years tenure.

Odds are very slim that any coach hired instead would do any better...…………………..so you are tellin me there is a chance? :wink02:

[Mojouw]

Woah. Woah. Information has no place in this discussion. It's all about how rooting for the team makes me feel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Tomlin's seat is as hot as an ice fishing shack in Alaska right now.

He's made the playoffs 5 of the last 6 seasons. He isnt going anywhere.

[Michael]

"I wouldn't put Mike Tomlin as great because I feel like a great coach
takes good players and does great things with them." — @jharrison9292

473
11:04 AM - Jan 15, 2019

Please anybody, what does Mike Tomlin do that is "Great"? I would have said that as a player's coach he ran a good locker room. I wont say it now. I sincerely respect most everybody's opinions What does Tomlin do as a coach that is GREAT?

[zulater]

"I wouldn't put Mike Tomlin as great because I feel like a great coach
takes good players and does great things with them." — @jharrison9292

473
11:04 AM - Jan 15, 2019

Please anybody, what does Mike Tomlin do that is "Great"? I would have said that as a player's coach he ran a good locker room. I wont say it now. I sincerely respect most everybody's opinions What does Tomlin do as a coach that is GREAT?

Ironic James Harrison of all people would say that. Because prior to Tomlin's arrival Harrison was a backup OLB on both sides and a special teams ace. You can attribute that to Joey Porter being on the team to some degree. But Cowher also had him behind Clark Haggans!

[Shoes]

The real questions for me is How do you hire a Head Coach? What did Dan Rooney see in Noll that he hired him on the spot without anyone's input? What would you look for?

[AtlantaDan]

The real questions for me is How do you hire a Head Coach? What did Dan Rooney see in Noll that he hired him on the spot without anyone's input? What would you look for?

Link to hiring Noll on the spot with no input?

According to these stories it was a very deliberative process.

The Chief and Dan's brother Art, Jr. also were involved

No surprise the Chief suggested going after Notre Dame coach Ara Parseghian :chuckle:

The Chief still couldn’t resist his impulses. Art Rooney Jr. remembered as much ... saying his father, in the middle of the season-ending team party, asked him to call Notre Dame coach Ara Parseghian. “I said, ‘Oh, this is going to be embarrassing,’ and my dad said, ‘Look, these guys always have to be looking for their next job. They’re football coaches,’ ” said Rooney Jr., who ran the team’s scouting department. “So I called him and said, ‘My dad told me to call you. Would you like to be a head coach in the pros? The Steelers would like to talk.’ He said, ‘Hey, I have a contract, and I’m living up to my contract, but thank you for calling.’...

Dan Rooney interviewed about 10 candidates in all, most seriously Noll and Cleveland Browns assistant Nick Skorich.

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/joe-starkey/2017/04/18/dan-rooney-death-pittsburgh-steelers-chuck-noll/stories/201704180013

The Rooneys, having just fired Bill Austin, had given Joe Paterno, everybody’s opening candidate, first crack at the Steeler job. He had turned it down. Nick Skorich was Noll’s competition. The Patriots were closing fast on Noll, but Rooney says he wasn’t going to be stampeded into anything. He was going to take his time. The Steelers first interviewed Noll in the Kenilworth Hotel in Bal Harbour, Fla., the day after the Super Bowl. Rooney liked Noll’s ideas, his knowledge of the Steelers. ...

Rooney wasn’t about to let a big-name head coach [that refers to Don Shula] talk him into signing one of his assistants; Rooney had already been burned by Lombardi, who had raved about Austin. So, 10 days after the interview at the Kenilworth, Rooney, this time with his dad sitting in, again met with Noll in the Steeler offices at the Roosevelt Hotel in Pittsburgh, and from time to time young Artie Rooney would pop in. As Dan remembers clearly, “It wasn’t one of those peaches and cream interviews. Chuck wasn’t afraid to argue.”
...

10 days after the interview at the Kenilworth, Rooney, this time with his dad sitting in, again met with Noll in the Steeler offices at the Roosevelt Hotel in Pittsburgh, and from time to time young Artie Rooney would pop in....

“The second thing I wanted to know,” Artie says, “is whether Chuck wanted his coaches to get involved in scouting. He said he most emphatically did, and that’s when we got into an argument. I mean, we agreed that the draft was the only way to build the club, but I wanted the scouting department to have the last word on getting the talent. I’d been running the scouting for about four years. Eventually he won, but we went at it that day.

https://www.si.com/2014/06/17/chuck-noll-pittsburgh-steelers-coach-man-not-myth

Three points about the Dan Rooney hiring process I noted from those articles


Do not make a hire just because an assistant is coming from a successful organization and the head coach gives a glowing recommendation
Do not get rushed into making a decision even if the candidate may go elsewhere (as opposed to last week's HC hiring frenzy)
Get the coach's role worked out before you hire him (in Noll's case on matters such as scouting). FWIW Noll was flexible - he wanted to draft Robert Newhouse rather than Franco but was talked out of it

[st33lersguy]

I know definitely if Tomlin has back to back losing seasons, he's gone, Rooney will let his contract run out

[steelreserve]

Meh, so Tomlin is 2nd only to Belicheat in winning percentage, for those coaches with at least 5 years tenure.

Odds are very slim that any coach hired instead would do any better...…………………..so you are tellin me there is a chance? :wink02:

Tomlin's record reminds me a lot of Don Nelson when he coached the Golden State Warriors in the 80s and 90s. Always up there as one of the winningest coaches, best winning percentage except for Pat Riley, etc., and all the stats and indicators were right ... but you knew all it was ever good for was about the 5th seed in the Western Conference and an easy out in the playoffs, and they were just going to get stomped by the Lakers or the Suns, who did everything they did, only better. And the same couple of problems would keep holding them back year after year, and for some reason they couldn't fix those problems drafting 16th or 18th, but the teams ahead of them fixed their problems drafting 24th or 30th. Sure did draft the same kinds of players over and over, though. And that's the way it was for about 10 years. Sound familiar?

[Shoes]

Link to hiring Noll on the spot with no input?

According to these stories it was a very deliberative process.

The Chief and Dan's brother Art, Jr. also were involved

No surprise the Chief suggested going after Notre Dame coach Ara Parseghian :chuckle:

The Chief still couldn’t resist his impulses. Art Rooney Jr. remembered as much ... saying his father, in the middle of the season-ending team party, asked him to call Notre Dame coach Ara Parseghian. “I said, ‘Oh, this is going to be embarrassing,’ and my dad said, ‘Look, these guys always have to be looking for their next job. They’re football coaches,’ ” said Rooney Jr., who ran the team’s scouting department. “So I called him and said, ‘My dad told me to call you. Would you like to be a head coach in the pros? The Steelers would like to talk.’ He said, ‘Hey, I have a contract, and I’m living up to my contract, but thank you for calling.’...

Dan Rooney interviewed about 10 candidates in all, most seriously Noll and Cleveland Browns assistant Nick Skorich.

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/joe-starkey/2017/04/18/dan-rooney-death-pittsburgh-steelers-chuck-noll/stories/201704180013

The Rooneys, having just fired Bill Austin, had given Joe Paterno, everybody’s opening candidate, first crack at the Steeler job. He had turned it down. Nick Skorich was Noll’s competition. The Patriots were closing fast on Noll, but Rooney says he wasn’t going to be stampeded into anything. He was going to take his time. The Steelers first interviewed Noll in the Kenilworth Hotel in Bal Harbour, Fla., the day after the Super Bowl. Rooney liked Noll’s ideas, his knowledge of the Steelers. ...

Rooney wasn’t about to let a big-name head coach [that refers to Don Shula] talk him into signing one of his assistants; Rooney had already been burned by Lombardi, who had raved about Austin. So, 10 days after the interview at the Kenilworth, Rooney, this time with his dad sitting in, again met with Noll in the Steeler offices at the Roosevelt Hotel in Pittsburgh, and from time to time young Artie Rooney would pop in. As Dan remembers clearly, “It wasn’t one of those peaches and cream interviews. Chuck wasn’t afraid to argue.”
...

10 days after the interview at the Kenilworth, Rooney, this time with his dad sitting in, again met with Noll in the Steeler offices at the Roosevelt Hotel in Pittsburgh, and from time to time young Artie Rooney would pop in....

“The second thing I wanted to know,” Artie says, “is whether Chuck wanted his coaches to get involved in scouting. He said he most emphatically did, and that’s when we got into an argument. I mean, we agreed that the draft was the only way to build the club, but I wanted the scouting department to have the last word on getting the talent. I’d been running the scouting for about four years. Eventually he won, but we went at it that day.

https://www.si.com/2014/06/17/chuck-noll-pittsburgh-steelers-coach-man-not-myth

Three points about the Dan Rooney hiring process I noted from those articles


Do not make a hire just because an assistant is coming from a successful organization and the head coach gives a glowing recommendation
Do not get rushed into making a decision even if the candidate may go elsewhere (as opposed to last week's HC hiring frenzy)
Get the coach's role worked out before you hire him (in Noll's case on matters such as scouting). FWIW Noll was flexible - he wanted to draft Robert Newhouse rather than Franco but was talked out of it




Stand-by, I have to find where I read it.

[AtlantaDan]

I know definitely if Tomlin has back to back losing seasons, he's gone, Rooney will let his contract run out

Given the cluster of the 2006 season when Cowher's contract was not extended prior to the start of the contract's final season I doubt AJRII would have Tomlin coaching during the 2020 season without a new contract

Tomlin has options too - Ravens did not extend Harbaugh with two years left on his contract and with one year left negotiating an extension with him may be getting feisty

As noted by Mike Preston of the Baltimore Sun, the Ravens have yet to conduct (https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/bs-sp-harbaugh-20190117-story.html) an annual end-of-season press conference with Harbaugh.

In theory, the team could announce an extension for Harbaugh at any time. But, as Peter King has reported, there’s a “good chance” Harbaugh doesn’t sign an extension and becomes a free agent in 2020.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/01/18/clock-keeps-ticking-on-john-harbaugh-contract-extension/

[Shoes]

Link to hiring Noll on the spot with no input?

According to these stories it was a very deliberative process.

The Chief and Dan's brother Art, Jr. also were involved

No surprise the Chief suggested going after Notre Dame coach Ara Parseghian :chuckle:

The Chief still couldn’t resist his impulses. Art Rooney Jr. remembered as much ... saying his father, in the middle of the season-ending team party, asked him to call Notre Dame coach Ara Parseghian. “I said, ‘Oh, this is going to be embarrassing,’ and my dad said, ‘Look, these guys always have to be looking for their next job. They’re football coaches,’ ” said Rooney Jr., who ran the team’s scouting department. “So I called him and said, ‘My dad told me to call you. Would you like to be a head coach in the pros? The Steelers would like to talk.’ He said, ‘Hey, I have a contract, and I’m living up to my contract, but thank you for calling.’...

Dan Rooney interviewed about 10 candidates in all, most seriously Noll and Cleveland Browns assistant Nick Skorich.

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/joe-starkey/2017/04/18/dan-rooney-death-pittsburgh-steelers-chuck-noll/stories/201704180013

The Rooneys, having just fired Bill Austin, had given Joe Paterno, everybody’s opening candidate, first crack at the Steeler job. He had turned it down. Nick Skorich was Noll’s competition. The Patriots were closing fast on Noll, but Rooney says he wasn’t going to be stampeded into anything. He was going to take his time. The Steelers first interviewed Noll in the Kenilworth Hotel in Bal Harbour, Fla., the day after the Super Bowl. Rooney liked Noll’s ideas, his knowledge of the Steelers. ...

Rooney wasn’t about to let a big-name head coach [that refers to Don Shula] talk him into signing one of his assistants; Rooney had already been burned by Lombardi, who had raved about Austin. So, 10 days after the interview at the Kenilworth, Rooney, this time with his dad sitting in, again met with Noll in the Steeler offices at the Roosevelt Hotel in Pittsburgh, and from time to time young Artie Rooney would pop in. As Dan remembers clearly, “It wasn’t one of those peaches and cream interviews. Chuck wasn’t afraid to argue.”
...

10 days after the interview at the Kenilworth, Rooney, this time with his dad sitting in, again met with Noll in the Steeler offices at the Roosevelt Hotel in Pittsburgh, and from time to time young Artie Rooney would pop in....

“The second thing I wanted to know,” Artie says, “is whether Chuck wanted his coaches to get involved in scouting. He said he most emphatically did, and that’s when we got into an argument. I mean, we agreed that the draft was the only way to build the club, but I wanted the scouting department to have the last word on getting the talent. I’d been running the scouting for about four years. Eventually he won, but we went at it that day.

https://www.si.com/2014/06/17/chuck-noll-pittsburgh-steelers-coach-man-not-myth

Three points about the Dan Rooney hiring process I noted from those articles


Do not make a hire just because an assistant is coming from a successful organization and the head coach gives a glowing recommendation
Do not get rushed into making a decision even if the candidate may go elsewhere (as opposed to last week's HC hiring frenzy)
Get the coach's role worked out before you hire him (in Noll's case on matters such as scouting). FWIW Noll was flexible - he wanted to draft Robert Newhouse rather than Franco but was talked out of it



I can't find the article, but I remember it saying that Dan personally hired Noll. I'm sure they did their homework but the article made it sound that he was very sure about Noll. Which is why I ask the question on how HC are hired.

I read about AJRII and Colbert's hiring of Tomlin and was a bit puzzled on the points of hire, I mean they are good qualities to have but I didn't see much about football in it. I came across this article when I was looking up something about LeBeau

"The intent of the Rooney Rule was to give coaches such as Tomlin
a forum to display their credentials. Tomlin was chosen largely
because of the motivation, enthusiasm and organizational skills he
showed in two strong interviews with Rooney, Art Rooney II and
director of football operations Kevin Colbert.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=2738834


I mean where does football knowledge fit in a hire? If Tomlin or any coach were hired mainly for the above qualities, you might as well hire a Tennis player to coach the team. Is hiring a head coach like the draft a 50/50 crap shoot?

[Mojouw]

There was just an article somewhere at around the end of the season where one of the Steelers coaches was quoted as saying that Tomlin's football knowledge is off the charts. Talked about how he can diagnose what went right or wrong on a play in the moment down to player assignment level during games.

Honestly, I think Tomlin's biggest failure is that he interacts with and treats his players like they are grown-ass men and gives them the privileges and leeway that assumption entails. Then 1-2 guys a year burn him with that.

Also I think it was Marv Levy: Plan your work and work your plan. That might be all that head coaching really is.

[steelreserve]

I mean where does football knowledge fit in a hire? If Tomlin or any coach were hired mainly for the above qualities, you might as well hire a Tennis player to coach the team. Is hiring a head coach like the draft a 50/50 crap shoot?

The evidence all indicates it's exactly that, a crapshoot. Maybe even more so than the draft. How many people who "should" make great coaches based on past experience and qualifications end up crashing and burning spectacularly? For that matter, how many who have already been successful NFL head coaches end up failing in a slightly different environment? Not quite as many, but it's still a lot of them. And this is something where you tend to have a LOT more measurable evidence before making your decision than you do about some 21-year-old kid who had one good season, and you have 5 minutes to make your choice.

Seems like there is a lot of luck involved, not only about getting someone qualified, but who is the right person at the right time for the team you have and whose style is going to work. I assume they all have a huge amount of football knowledge, which is just table stakes. What matters is whether your methods will work to translate that football knowledge into actual performance, and how much you can get it to work in real time. May not be the same even with the same coach on two different teams or with two different groups of players.

[Shoes]

The evidence all indicates it's exactly that, a crapshoot. Maybe even more so than the draft. How many people who "should" make great coaches based on past experience and qualifications end up crashing and burning spectacularly? For that matter, how many who have already been successful NFL head coaches end up failing in a slightly different environment? Not quite as many, but it's still a lot of them. And this is something where you tend to have a LOT more measurable evidence before making your decision than you do about some 21-year-old kid who had one good season, and you have 5 minutes to make your choice.

Seems like there is a lot of luck involved, not only about getting someone qualified, but who is the right person at the right time for the team you have and whose style is going to work. I assume they all have a huge amount of football knowledge, which is just table stakes. What matters is whether your methods will work to translate that football knowledge into actual performance, and how much you can get it to work in real time. May not be the same even with the same coach on two different teams or with two different groups of players.

It is a bit strange with so much money involved that there isnt a better way.

[AtlantaDan]

It is a bit strange with so much money involved that there isnt a better way.

One would think so but there is no secret sauce.

The NFL is a mom & pop operation in terms of dollar value compared to major corporations and what they pay their CEOs. Bad CEO hiring decisions are made all the time through not only flaws in the process but flaws in the individuals that make it through the process.

[steelreserve]

It is a bit strange with so much money involved that there isnt a better way.

You'd think there would be, but on the other hand - no amount of money in the world can help you scientifically measure the things that make a good coach. People skills, strategy, improvisation, responding to pressure, organization, leadership in a practical sense, fitting all that to the specific situation ... basically what are called "intangibles" in players - well, coaching is basically ALL intangibles.

In a lot of ways, I suppose finding a good head coach is also a reflection of the "intangibles" of the ownership. That and good luck.

[Shoes]

]One would think so but there is no secret sauce.
[/B]
The NFL is a mom & pop operation in terms of dollar value compared to major corporations and what they pay their CEOs. Bad CEO hiring decisions are made all the time through not only flaws in the process but flaws in the individuals that make it through the process.

Well, Im glad the doctor that just replaced my ankle had experence. :lol:

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Tomlin's record reminds me a lot of Don Nelson when he coached the Golden State Warriors in the 80s and 90s. Always up there as one of the winningest coaches, best winning percentage except for Pat Riley, etc., and all the stats and indicators were right ... but you knew all it was ever good for was about the 5th seed in the Western Conference and an easy out in the playoffs, and they were just going to get stomped by the Lakers or the Suns, who did everything they did, only better. And the same couple of problems would keep holding them back year after year, and for some reason they couldn't fix those problems drafting 16th or 18th, but the teams ahead of them fixed their problems drafting 24th or 30th. Sure did draft the same kinds of players over and over, though. And that's the way it was for about 10 years. Sound familiar?

Really tough to compare NBA and NFL, IMO. Five guys on the floor vs 22 if you consider offensive and defensive football. You could win in the NBA with 3 or 4 good players, but still needed 1 or 2 GREAT players. Run TMC were good, but more spot shooters than guys who could create and make guys around them better.

I know what you are trying to do with the comparison, but I think we can honestly say the Steelers defense hasn't been good since a lot of the guys like Troy, Farrior, Hampton, Smith, Keisel, Harrison, Taylor, Clark, etc moved on. A basketball reference is more like the Loyola Marymount teams of Paul Westhead, which are all offense and whatever you can muster on D. The only thing is that sometimes Ben comes up with a cold shooting night(like every time he plays Oakland) and you just chalk it up as an L.

Tomlin isn't going anywhere unless next season is 6-10 and there is more locker room mess. More likely is that the Steelers trade AB and it doesn't go well, they end up 6-10 next year, Ben retires and its a complete reset. Then he might be on the way out, but he might also be given a chance to rebuild it.

[AtlantaDan]

Tomlin isn't going anywhere unless next season is 6-10 and there is more locker room mess. More likely is that the Steelers trade AB and it doesn't go well, they end up 6-10 next year, Ben retires and its a complete reset. Then he might be on the way out, but he might also be given a chance to rebuild it.

Steelers might stick with Tomlin for a rebuild. Saints stuck with Sean Payton and that was a guy who was suspended for a year followed by three consecutive 7-9 seasons before his recent second act of success (although having Drew Bees is a nice player to have around for your rebuild.)

The question some Steelers fans seem incapable of comprehending is whether Tomlin might decide he no longer wants to stick with the Steelers due to factors including the ridiculous expectations of a portion of the fan base and at some point being ready to move on to a fresh start when there are numerous teams that would be glad to provide it to you.

[steelreserve]

Really tough to compare NBA and NFL, IMO. Five guys on the floor vs 22 if you consider offensive and defensive football. You could win in the NBA with 3 or 4 good players, but still needed 1 or 2 GREAT players. Run TMC were good, but more spot shooters than guys who could create and make guys around them better.

I know what you are trying to do with the comparison, but I think we can honestly say the Steelers defense hasn't been good since a lot of the guys like Troy, Farrior, Hampton, Smith, Keisel, Harrison, Taylor, Clark, etc moved on. A basketball reference is more like the Loyola Marymount teams of Paul Westhead, which are all offense and whatever you can muster on D. The only thing is that sometimes Ben comes up with a cold shooting night(like every time he plays Oakland) and you just chalk it up as an L.

Tomlin isn't going anywhere unless next season is 6-10 and there is more locker room mess. More likely is that the Steelers trade AB and it doesn't go well, they end up 6-10 next year, Ben retires and its a complete reset. Then he might be on the way out, but he might also be given a chance to rebuild it.

The similarity with Nelson is that they were always "good enough" that he wasn't in danger of losing his job ... but they also could never get past "good enough," in large part because of their philosophy.

What you say about the Steelers' defense is absolutely correct, and also very similar to to Don Nelson-era Warriors ... their problem was that for years, they had no effective post players to speak of, and got run over by teams that could take advantage of that. Every year they'd bring in a new bullshit 6'9" or 6'10" guy who was a good center in college but lacked the size or athleticism to play center in the pros, and usually also lacked the skill set even to be a decent NBA power forward. So they'd pile up 4 or 5 young tweener players at a time who had "potential" and raw ability, but never put it together into anything coherent. And then as a band-aid they'd add a 7-foot-plus guy who was so awkward and slow he was useless, and they'd get a new one of those every year or two. Seems to have a lot in common with what we've been going through trying to rebuild our defense.

Really the Warriors of that time were the closest NBA equivalent to Paul Westhead and Loyola Marymount, and that comparison was made fairly frequently. One-dimensional small ball, and tgey try to beat you 155-154.

Just like Tomlin, Nelson wasn't ever getting fired because the plan kept being "good enough," not unless there was other off-the-court bullshit going on, which eventually there was. Although his exit was more like what AtlantaDan describes, resigning in frustration.

Funny thing about that argument by the way ... if Tomlin decided not to stick around because of some fans' ridiculous expectations, wouldn't that be exactly what those fans wanted? Why does that make them "incapable of comprehending?" Because they don't want the same thing you want?

[AtlantaDan]

Funny thing about that argument by the way ... if Tomlin decided not to stick around because of some fans' ridiculous expectations, wouldn't that be exactly what those fans wanted? Why does that make them "incapable of comprehending?" Because they don't want the same thing you want?

I assume you are responding to this statement by me


The question some Steelers fans seem incapable of comprehending is whether Tomlin might decide he no longer wants to stick with the Steelers due to factors including the ridiculous expectations of a portion of the fan base and at some point being ready to move on to a fresh start when there are numerous teams that would be glad to provide it to you.

What I said some Steelers fans seem incapable of comprehending is that Tomlin (or for that matter anyone else) might decide they do not want to hang around the Steelers until their tenure is terminated. The postings on this board are heavy on reasons why Tomlin should be fired and light on how he probably could have another HC job quickly if he wanted to leave, leaving the impression he has little control over his future employment. Check out what the Ravens have on their hands in trying to negotiate a contract extension with John Harbaugh if you doubt the extent of Tomlin's leverage.

There is a significant portion of the Steelers fan base that cannot conceive of coaches leaving the hallowed Pittsburgh Steelers simply for personal reasons or because they might want a change. The postings on how Mike Munchak surely would not have left the Steelers in a lateral move unless something horrible was going on in Tomlin's locker room reflect that attitude when based on all credible information it had nothing to due with that.

As far as your statement, "if Tomlin decided not to stick around because of some fans' ridiculous expectations, wouldn't that be exactly what those fans wanted?," the posts I am reading are not asking Tomlin to voluntarily move on - they want his ass fired. And yeah - the expectations of some Steelers fans that their team is the center of the football universe from which nobody would ever voluntarily depart and that every decade should be like the 70s with talent that in the past several years has been very good but flawed, while not clearly superior to that of a number of other teams in the league, are ridiculous.

Circling back to my contention that those inflated expectations can cause a coach to leave, in the A Football Life episode on Bill Cowher, which I highly recommend, his daughters said a significant factor in Cowher leaving was that Cowher and his family simply were burned out on the fishbowl existence of living in Pittsburgh as the coach of the Steelers. To the credit of the current generation of fans, I have not yet read rumors of marital infidelity being circulated about Tomlin as they were about Cowher after he had the audacity to incur back to back losing seasons, but stay tuned.

Finally, I want the same thing all Steelers fans do - to have the Steelers hoist the Lombardi every February. But unlike some fans I do not have a sense of entitlement that if it does not occur it must be due to bad coaching that requires change for the sake of change with nothing close to a guarantee that change will be for the better rather than the worse.

:drink:

[DesertSteel]

A. I’d be happy if Tomlin decided to move on.
B. I’m quite sure he’d have 3-4 suitors lining up.

My opinion is that he’s a good coach (long ways from great), whose time with one team has run its course. I don’t think this will happen for another 4-5 years, but it would be my preference for it o happen ASAP.

As for Tomlin’s future, I think he’d be much better as a studio analyst than on the sidelines.

[st33lersguy]

Go ahead Tomlin move on for the sake of the team so the Steelers can have a shot at another Super Bowl. Some shit team can hire him only to be disappointed when he can't actually turn a bad team into a good team

[teegre]

I assume you are responding to this statement by me



What I said some Steelers fans seem incapable of comprehending is that Tomlin (or for that matter anyone else) might decide they do not want to hang around the Steelers until their tenure is terminated. The postings on this board are heavy on reasons why Tomlin should be fired and light on how he probably could have another HC job quickly if he wanted to leave, leaving the impression he has little control over his future employment. Check out what the Ravens have on their hands in trying to negotiate a contract extension with John Harbaugh if you doubt the extent of Tomlin's leverage.

There is a significant portion of the Steelers fan base that cannot conceive of coaches leaving the hallowed Pittsburgh Steelers simply for personal reasons or because they might want a change. The postings on how Mike Munchak surely would not have left the Steelers in a lateral move unless something horrible was going on in Tomlin's locker room reflect that attitude when based on all credible information it had nothing to due with that.

As far as your statement, "if Tomlin decided not to stick around because of some fans' ridiculous expectations, wouldn't that be exactly what those fans wanted?," the posts I am reading are not asking Tomlin to voluntarily move on - they want his ass fired. And yeah - the expectations of some Steelers fans that their team is the center of the football universe from which nobody would ever voluntarily depart and that every decade should be like the 70s with talent that in the past several years has been very good but flawed, while not clearly superior to that of a number of other teams in the league, are ridiculous.

Circling back to my contention that those inflated expectations can cause a coach to leave, in the A Football Life episode on Bill Cowher, which I highly recommend, his daughters said a significant factor in Cowher leaving was that Cowher and his family simply were burned out on the fishbowl existence of living in Pittsburgh as the coach of the Steelers. To the credit of the current generation of fans, I have not yet read rumors of marital infidelity being circulated about Tomlin as they were about Cowher after he had the audacity to incur back to back losing seasons, but stay tuned.

Finally, I want the same thing all Steelers fans do - to have the Steelers hoist the Lombardi every February. But unlike some fans I do not have a sense of entitlement that if it does not occur it must be due to bad coaching that requires change for the sake of change with nothing close to a guarantee that change will be for the better rather than the worse.

:drink:

:nod:

[AtlantaDan]

A. I’d be happy if Tomlin decided to move on.
B. I’m quite sure he’d have 3-4 suitors lining up.

My opinion is that he’s a good coach (long ways from great), whose time with one team has run its course. I don’t think this will happen for another 4-5 years, but it would be my preference for it o happen ASAP.

As for Tomlin’s future, I think he’d be much better as a studio analyst than on the sidelines.

The current going rate for head coaches who have similar records to Tomlin is $11 million per year (when he most likely gets extended by AJRII for around that amount this summer the posts at SU about that payout should be entertaining :rolleyes: )

The Ravens probably want to offer Harbaugh a similar three-year extension to the one signed by Seattle Seahawks (https://www.baltimoresun.com/topic/sports/football/seattle-seahawks-ORSPT000058-topic.html) head coach Pete Carroll (https://www.baltimoresun.com/topic/sports/football/pete-carroll-PESPT00008934-topic.html) in December. Carroll’s deal is worth $11 million per season.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/bs-sp-harbaugh-20190117-story.html

Unless Tomlin gets burned out on coaching like Cowher did I doubt he would take the pay cut to sit in the studio and get paid to laugh at the jokes of the other analysts. Other than Cowher a studio analyst gig is a very lucrative form of unemployment compensation for fired HCs

[DesertSteel]

Maybe he’ll decide he wants to watch his kids play sports before it’s too late! We can always dream...

[AtlantaDan]

Maybe he’ll decide he wants to watch his kids play sports before it’s too late! We can always dream...

He will no longer be able to watch his older son's games on Friday nights since Dino Tomlin is off to play ball at Maryland next fall so now may be the time :chuckle:

https://usatodayhss.com/2018/dino-tomlin-son-of-steelers-coach-mike-tomlin-picks-maryland

[DesertSteel]

That said, aside from AB in week 17, Rooney seems pretty happy with the state of the franchise, the on-field performance, the coaches and the culture. I'm quite sure that we could be headed to the dark ages again in the very near future.

[steelreserve]

A. I’d be happy if Tomlin decided to move on.
B. I’m quite sure he’d have 3-4 suitors lining up.

My opinion is that he’s a good coach (long ways from great), whose time with one team has run its course. I don’t think this will happen for another 4-5 years, but it would be my preference for it o happen ASAP.

That sums it up well. Tomlin is not a "bad" coach, many teams would be happy to have him, etc., etc., etc.

But I don't think we're going to win another championship with him, and at this point we're not particularly close. Being consistently "pretty good" for another 5 years doesn't do anything for me.

"OH BUT SPOILED STEELERS FANS OMG!!! WONT BE HAPPY UNLESS YOU GO 16-0 AND WIN THE SUPPER BOWL EVERY YEAR & EVEN THEN YOUD STILL COMPLAIN!!! WELL YOU COULD BE A BROWNS FAN & THEN WHAT, EVER THINK ABOUT THAT?!?!"

Well guess what, we've won exactly the same number of championships as the Browns in the past decade. Despite having one of the best quarterbacks in the league and a lot of talent around him, all we manage are pretty-good regular seasons culminating in disappointment. Yeah, we SHOULD be having pretty good regular seasons with a top QB, Einstein. Congratulations, we've done as expected - golf clap. 9-6-1 is a fitting summary of the past decade. Time to aim for better than that.

Again - not a terrible coach. We just need something different at this point.

I would also be very, very, VERY curious to see what Tomlin's winning percentage would look like if he did not have a HOF quarterback on the team for his entire career.

[Born2Steel]

That sums it up well. Tomlin is not a "bad" coach, many teams would be happy to have him, etc., etc., etc.

But I don't think we're going to win another championship with him, and at this point we're not particularly close. Being consistently "pretty good" for another 5 years doesn't do anything for me.

"OH BUT SPOILED STEELERS FANS OMG!!! WONT BE HAPPY UNLESS YOU GO 16-0 AND WIN THE SUPPER BOWL EVERY YEAR & EVEN THEN YOUD STILL COMPLAIN!!! WELL YOU COULD BE A BROWNS FAN & THEN WHAT, EVER THINK ABOUT THAT?!?!"

Well guess what, we've won exactly the same number of championships as the Browns in the past decade. Despite having one of the best quarterbacks in the league and a lot of talent around him, all we manage are pretty-good regular seasons culminating in disappointment. Yeah, we SHOULD be having pretty good regular seasons with a top QB, Einstein. Congratulations, we've done as expected - golf clap. 9-6-1 is a fitting summary of the past decade. Time to aim for better than that.

Again - not a terrible coach. We just need something different at this point.

I would also be very, very, VERY curious to see what Tomlin's winning percentage would look like if he did not have a HOF quarterback on the team for his entire career.

When Ben(HoF quarterback) retires in a few years we will find out what Tomlin can do without one.

[AtlantaDan]

I would also be very, very, VERY curious to see what Tomlin's winning percentage would look like if he did not have a HOF quarterback on the team for his entire career.

Hard to say so far, but if he had a .500 record without a HOF QB would that "prove" Tomlin is a mediocre coach?

Maybe what Belichick's record was in Cleveland without Brady? (36-44)

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/BeliBi0.htm

Or maybe Noll's record after Bradshaw retired? (60-67 which includes the 8-7 record during the 1987 strike year in which replacement players games were included)

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/NollCh0.htm

About the only coach I can recall who had great and recurring success without a great QB was Joe Gibbs (3 Lombardis with three diferent journeyman QBs)


Again - not a terrible coach. We just need something different at this point.

OK - let's play that game

Assume we time travel back to December 30th and Tomlin decides to resign since he clearly has lost the team and is humiliated by constantly underperforming by only winning one Super Bowl with a HOF QB since he was hired (even though the only coaches to have won more than one Lombardi with an arguably HOF QB in this century are Belichick & Coughlin).

If winning multiple Super Bowls with a HOF QB is your metric for success would you hire Coughlin (assume Belichick elects to stay in New England and take his chances with Brady)?

Or one of the hires for the 8 vacancies that have been filled in the past 3 weeks (in addition to the 7 announced hires Miami allegedly is going with the obligatory rando Patriots assistant Brian Flores)?

Or Mike Munchak and his 22-26 record as a HC with the Titans?

Or someone else?

It is easy to throw rocks at the incumbent - maybe not so easy to come up with a clearly preferable alternative assuming your goal is to improve the team rather than just fire the HC in an act of petulance because "something must be done" after the appropriate number of years without winning a Super Bowl while having a HOF QB on the roster (how many years is that?) has expired

Go for it :thumbsup:

[steelreserve]

It is easy to throw rocks at the incumbent - maybe not so easy to come up with a clearly preferable alternative assuming your goal is to improve the team rather than just fire the HC in an act of petulance because "something must be done" after the appropriate number of years without winning a Super Bowl while having a HOF QB on the roster (how many years is that?) has expired

Go for it :thumbsup:

I'd say 10 years is plenty; I mean, if not then nothing is.

Moreover, the manner in which you don't win those years - not being a serious contender for most of them despite having a HOF quarterback - says a lot as well, e.g it's not just bad luck.

Ah, the "well who would replace him" conversation, as if we haven't been over this a million times. You limit it to established successful NFL coaches and say it's impossible to find anyone better. I tell you those self-imposed parameters are only there as the equivalent of a loaded question that lets you dismiss any argument out of hand. I say the next coach will probably be someone other than an established HC, someone only die-hard football insiders will know well (like Tomlin was when we hired him). You dismiss that argument saying I'm not being specific.

If we were having this conversation in 2004, how would you have reacted? "You really think you can replace Cowher, who's made the playoffs 8 out of 11 years and has one of the best winning percentages of all coaches, with MIKE TOMLIN?? So you're basically saying it doesn't matter and you can just pick anybody? GTFO."

You know it's the truth. So that pretty well ends that little argument.

For the record, yes, I would call Coughlin's two Super Bowls in 10 years a much better success than Tomlin's zero Super Bowls in 10 years (but he had pretty good regular seasons!) Given the benefit of hindsight, that would've been a very easy call. I do not think Coughlin would be a good choice now, among other things because he's getting too old, so hindsight is really all there is in that case. Munchak, well ... he had about a .500 record without a HOF quarterback, right, so ... do you dismiss him out of hand or not?

The point of the Super Bowl argument is that if you have NOT won one for thst length of time, and if it still seems you are several steps away after all that time ... then perhaps your ceiling is "pretty good." There are plenty of people like that, including coaches, I don't think that's an outrageous idea. Pretty good is also not going to do the job when the standard of success is above that.

[Michael]

Ironic James Harrison of all people would say that. Because prior to Tomlin's arrival Harrison was a backup OLB on both sides and a special teams ace. You can attribute that to Joey Porter being on the team to some degree. But Cowher also had him behind Clark Haggans!

Zu, I enjoy your posts, they are well written and informative as you clearly know the game very well. I genuinely gave Tomlin credit for being a good locker room coach or it commonly described a :player's Coach". I can't rationalize this opinion any longer. I ask you with all respect What does Tomlin do that is great? .

[DesertSteel]

I’d say follow the trend and hire a young playcaller. Otherwise, I’d go with Munch.

[zulater]

Zu, I enjoy your posts, they are well written and informative as you clearly know the game very well. I genuinely gave Tomlin credit for being a good locker room coach or it commonly described a :player's Coach". I can't rationalize this opinion any longer. I ask you with all respect What does Tomlin do that is great? .

Continuity! lol. Seriously that's the Steelers way, and it's served them well for 50 years now. Honestly except for a handful of diva's and knuckelheads I think he has a good grip on the team. Most players enjoy playing for him and respect him. I don't think he's a great X's and O's guy. But I think for the most part he keeps them motivated and prepared as well or better than most NFL coaches.

Could he be improved upon? Yes? By who? I don't know? He obviously gets the 19 season to figure things out. I hope he does for all of our sake. If he doesn't I seriously think Rooney will get rid of him.

Everyone keeps asking why there hasn't been any major changes on the coaching staff? To me it's evident.Rooney isn't going to bring a top rate assistant on board only to let him go next season if and when he hires a new coach. In other words Tomlin is going to sink or swim on his own accord with his own hand chosen staff.

[Born2Steel]

I am not in the 'blame Tomlin' camp for all of the Steeler's issues. However, if there was one thing that I think has attributed to some of the disappointments is sticking to a game plan that is obviously not working. Not over the course of the season but individual games. The obvious example is how we have played defensively against the Patriots over the last several seasons. Different personnel groupings yet using the same plan without success. I do put this directly on Tomlin. I love that we changed that strategy this past season and finally broke the losing streak. There have been some very well put together game plans as well and Tomlin should get credit for those.

You do not get rid of your HC because he's "not the best out there". There is so much more to being a HC than game planning and most of that he does a very good job at as well. Blaming Tomlin for 'locker room culture' is naive and ignorant of how things work at the NFL level. Coaches rarely ever even go into the locker room or interact with players off of the field or outside of meetings. This is a job to every man there and is not a high school or college team situation. In fact, considering how long Tomlin was able to keep the egos of Ben, AB, and Bell all on roughly the same page, while drawing up winning game plans, is one of the things that makes him a very good HC. I do not believe a player like AB would have seen the success he has under a coach like Coughlin or Bellichick, whoever the QB was.

I put most blame for problems teams have, not just the Steelers, on the players themselves. Like I mentioned before this is a job. Some players understand that more than others. Most players understand their role/job and work to be the best they can be at what they do. Then there are those players that are "building their brand", whatever that means. The difference to me is as easy as 'team vs individual'. All players do what they do MOSTLY for team. Still using the example of AB, he gave it all for the team until he didn't. Can he/they get back to that? Maybe/maybe not, but either way it's out of Tomlin's hands and he is not to blame here.

[pczach]

I have always been a supporter of Mike Tomlin. I think he has been a very good head coach.


Here is Mike Tomlin's career coaching record: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/TomlMi0.htm

He has been with the team for a long time. He took over a talented roster, made it his own, and led them to 2 Super Bowls...winning one.

That team became very old, and the roster needed to be rebuilt. He still had a great quarterback, but it needed an infusion of youth and talent. During the years of the rebuild that started occurring after the 2010 Super Bowl, he was able to keep the organization stable and was able to help build the roster with the talent that Colbert and the front office provided him. In that time, he never had a losing record while constantly upgrading the talent level of the team and having to replace and upgrade many players at various positions.

The team looked like it finally had enough pieces to really compete for a Super Bowl. They had a bunch of quality skill position players, and an improving offensive line. The defense was improving, and had several key players in place. They weren't deep, but they were talented at many of the starting positions.

The team made the playoffs 2014-2017, but there would always be a major injury to a key player or two going into the playoffs. In 2016 they played three playoff games going 2-1, losing in the AFC Championship game.

In 2017, they went 13-3 for their best regular season record under Tomlin. Ryan Shazier was lost to a spinal cord injury, and the team was never able to overcome the massive loss to the defense and they were one and done in the playoffs.

2018....Bell holding out the entire season....Shazier unable to return from injury.....$22.5 million of salary cap from those two players not able to be used for needed help to fill holes....A tough schedule.....the squandered opportunities in too many games and had some heartbreaking losses due to some horrible breaks and bad officiating.....AB happened and is happening.

I'm not going to sit there and tell you that this year was perfect from the coaching perspective. It was far from that. What I am saying is that there are valid reasons why the team has only won 3 playoff games since the 2010 Super Bowl season. I spelled that out in the paragraphs above.

Here is where I am with Mike Tomlin as a coach:

He needs to have a good offseason.

The team needs to resolve the issue with Antonio Brown one way or another.

LeVeon Bell situation needs to be solved. Either let him go and move on, or use a tag that can get the team compensation.

This team needs to acquire talent through free agency and the draft.

He needs to put together a roster with the new talent that plays together as a team with much less drama.

He needs to solve any and all position coach issues with scheme or use of talent. The defensive coach wasn't his hire. He was the organization's hire, but that doesn't absolve Tomlin. He comes from a defensive background. He needs to be able to solve the defensive issues with scheme that the team has been having. If Butler fails, and he doesn't take over the defense, it probably means that Tomlin doesn't have any answers himself or has had a big hand in the performance of the defense all along and is a very big part of the failure.

It is time for Tomlin to face some of his deficiencies as a coach and make improvements. Time management, challenges, keeping pet players that offer next to nothing in on-field production over more physically talented players, etc..

I believe he needs to put together a really good year next season. If this team wins less than 10 games...it's probably time to move on to a new head coach with a new voice and message.

Make no mistake....all this is not on Tomlin. The organization put him in some of these positions by dictating assistant coaches. The recent problems are not all on Mike Tomlin by a long shot. That's where people sometimes can't see that the blame shouldn't all go to one location.

I still have confidence in Mike Tomlin as a coach. I believe he still has a chance to get it done. His new coaches and the moves the front office makes are going to help determine Tomlin's future with the team.

Let's hope the give him everything he needs to succeed. If they do...everybody wins.

[NCSteeler]

There was just an article somewhere at around the end of the season where one of the Steelers coaches was quoted as saying that Tomlin's football knowledge is off the charts. Talked about how he can diagnose what went right or wrong on a play in the moment down to player assignment level during games.

Honestly, I think Tomlin's biggest failure is that he interacts with and treats his players like they are grown-ass men and gives them the privileges and leeway that assumption entails. Then 1-2 guys a year burn him with that.

Also I think it was Marv Levy: Plan your work and work your plan. That might be all that head coaching really is.I am not inside but if the people he works with say his football iq is off the charts, he lacks an ability to correct and plan or influence draft, fa talent.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

[GoSlash27]

Meh. If the Steelers haven't deep- sixed Ben, I highly doubt they'll get rid of Tomlin.

[AtlantaDan]

I'd say 10 years is plenty; I mean, if not then nothing is.[Q

Moreover, the manner in which you don't win those years - not being a serious contender for most of them despite having a HOF quarterback - says a lot as well, e.g it's not just bad luck.

Ah, the "well who would replace him" conversation, as if we haven't been over this a million times. You limit it to established successful NFL coaches and say it's impossible to find anyone better. I tell you those self-imposed parameters are only there as the equivalent of a loaded question that lets you dismiss any argument out of hand. I say the next coach will probably be someone other than an established HC, someone only die-hard football insiders will know well (like Tomlin was when we hired him). You dismiss that argument saying I'm not being specific.

If we were having this conversation in 2004, how would you have reacted? "You really think you can replace Cowher, who's made the playoffs 8 out of 11 years and has one of the best winning percentages of all coaches, with MIKE TOMLIN?? So you're basically saying it doesn't matter and you can just pick anybody? GTFO."

You know it's the truth. So that pretty well ends that little argument.

For the record, yes, I would call Coughlin's two Super Bowls in 10 years a much better success than Tomlin's zero Super Bowls in 10 years (but he had pretty good regular seasons!) Given the benefit of hindsight, that would've been a very easy call. I do not think Coughlin would be a good choice now, among other things because he's getting too old, so hindsight is really all there is in that case. Munchak, well ... he had about a .500 record without a HOF quarterback, right, so ... do you dismiss him out of hand or not?

The point of the Super Bowl argument is that if you have NOT won one for thst length of time, and if it still seems you are several steps away after all that time ... then perhaps your ceiling is "pretty good." There are plenty of people like that, including coaches, I don't think that's an outrageous idea. Pretty good is also not going to do the job when the standard of success is above that.

Got it - just replace him with someone. Bold choice there. Thanks for sharing.

I think Tomlin needs to make some significant changes in how he does business with regard to player relations (that includes both discipline and not outsourcing the offense to the HOF QB) and being held accountable for the failure to fix the defenses and special teams. If his position is fixing the defense and special teams is what Butler & Danny Smith are paid to do (although Tomlin allegedly is now very hands on with the defense) then Butler & Smith should have been replaced. The ongoing “cultural” problem is a lack of being held accountable, both in terms of players and assistant coaches to Tomlin as well as Tomlin and Colbert (I include Colbert due to the first round misses on Jones, Dupree & Burns) to AJRII

The tricky question is whether to extend Tomlin this summer with 2 years left on his contract. Cowher received such extensions coming off worse seasons than Tomlin’s 2018.. If Tomlin is not extended and the team improves in 2019 Tomlin’s price will go up and he may follow the Harbaugh playbook by either driving a harder bargain or just saying let’s wait until after my contract runs out to see where I may be coaching next.

I obviously do not think Tomlin should have been let go after this past season but do not believe he merits an extension until there is demonstrated improvement in his performance (which is mostly but not exclusively reflected by future postseason success). But as I state above not giving it to him before next season could backfire.

This is the most important offseason for AJRII since he really took over contol of the team when Dan Rooney left for Ireland in 2009

[teegre]

Taperiots fans were having this exact same discussion prior to the 2014 season: “Belichick hasn’t won a Super Bowl in a decade!!!”

I know, I know: the Taperiots went to two Super Bowls during those ten years. That’s not the point. The point is that winning Super Bowls is damn difficult.

[pczach]

Taperiots fans were having this exact same discussion prior to the 2014 season: “Belichick hasn’t won a Super Bowl in a decade!!!”

I know, I know: the Taperiots went to two Super Bowls during those ten years. That’s not the point. The point is that winning Super Bowls is damn difficult.



Very damn difficult.....and this franchise has won more than any other.

They know exactly how hard it is and what it takes to win one....and that's why they are more patient than fans.

[pepsyman1]

I know we look for a lot here in Pittsburgh because of the success of the past. Maybe that colors our judgement when we look at where we are now, but it's not the actual results that cause me aggravation with Tomlin. None of us are football professionals, none of us are NFL coaches, but ALL of us see the same problems repeating not just game to game, but season to season and the problems persist without any visible changes from Tomlin to address them. The secondary has been a problem for half a decade, special teams has sucked for as long as anyone can remember except for field goal kicking (this year was the first troublesome year in a long time). There are parts of this team that continue to do well (mostly offensively now), but the parts that we struggle with, Tomlin doesn't seem interested in making significant changes to the approach. THAT is a problem. If he was trying significantly different approaches but not having the success we are looking for I'd respect that and acknowledge that he's trying to fix the problems. We don't get that though. We get minimal or no changes to strategy with a coach who apparently is expecting a different result. That Butler and Smith haven't been let go is mystifying. Does Tomlin really think these guys are gonna get better at their jobs? They haven't shown us or Tomlin that they can get it done yet Tomlin sees no need to make changes. If you're not getting better, you're getting worse. There is no status quo in the NFL.

[Michael]

He will no longer be able to watch his older son's games on Friday nights since Dino Tomlin is off to play ball at Maryland next fall so now may be the time :chuckle:

https://usatodayhss.com/2018/dino-tomlin-son-of-steelers-coach-mike-tomlin-picks-maryland

This has been my dream.

[steelreserve]

Taperiots fans were having this exact same discussion prior to the 2014 season: “Belichick hasn’t won a Super Bowl in a decade!!!”

I know, I know: the Taperiots went to two Super Bowls during those ten years. That’s not the point. The point is that winning Super Bowls is damn difficult.

The difference is that they were among the top contenders for most/all of those years and had a number of near misses. The Montana/Young 49ers had a similar stretch of several years where bad breaks or one specific problem (no running game) held them back. Then they addressed that problem and went straight back to competing for and winning championships again. Both were still first-rate teams and first-tier contenders the whole time.

In Tomlin's case, there have been several seasons being out of contention or only marginal contenders. Seasons when we were supposed to contend and just ended up being overrated and disappointing. Missing the playoffs roughly half the time (4 out of 7 ain't bad, right?) and finishing with 8 or 9 wins. The same problems persisting for most of a decade straight, and multiple failed attempts to address it. Being a second-tier outside contender and trending flat, not upward.

And there's no difference except the fans are impatient? The problem is that there's something wrong with ME, not anything wrong with the team? You'll forgive me for not buying that.

It's clear as day there's a big goddamn difference. The fans-are-spoiled argument has run its course; maybe a few years ago you could say it, but not now. Not after this long. Now it sounds more like something that people say who just want to argue but don't want to hear anything back.

[steelreserve]

Got it - just replace him with someone. Bold choice there. Thanks for sharing.

"I am certain there are a lot of potential coaching candidates out there that neither you nor I have heard of yet, but they exist.”

"OK, name them."

"But I just said we haven't heard--"

"SEE! I TOLD YOU THAT YOU COULDN'T NAME THEM, I'M RIGHT!!!!"

[Michael]

Mike Tomlin's strength (is you want to call it as such) is bullshit with lies & or stupidity) sprinkled in when necessary ( "I liked the flow & rhythm of the game") ." I didn't know he (Brian Leftwich) was hurt". obviously he knows enough about the game but minimal knowledge, combined with his glib pedantic spraying of words has fooled the Rooneys, the media & a number, declining as it maybe, of loyal Steeler fans. Reasons" Art Rooney wants to preserve the Steeler legacy of long stability of Steeler head coaches. Ok I get it , give Tomlin a DIRECT WARNING not an implied warning. Simply put do not extend his contract. The media be dam. the profession of media news is arguably one of the worst professions in this country. Ignore them or think for yourself if you have the desire to listen or watch. The Steeler fans can have a voice. E Mail The Steelers , Call & leave voice messages. I will not buy any Steeler products nor in fact wear any products.

If you believe Tomin is a great Steeler coach defend him as you will. I won't any more until I see Tomlin and his work improve dramatically.I will remain loyal to the team as I have for over 65 years and sincerely hope Tomlin makes changes within himself I will happily say Great job coach " I don't dislike Mike Tomlin I simply like quality tough CONSISTENT Steeler football and SUPER BOWLS. Its been too dam long.

[teegre]

The difference is that they were among the top contenders for most/all of those years and had a number of near misses. The Montana/Young 49ers had a similar stretch of several years where bad breaks or one specific problem (no running game) held them back. Then they addressed that problem and went straight back to competing for and winning championships again. Both were still first-rate teams and first-tier contenders the whole time.

In Tomlin's case, there have been several seasons being out of contention or only marginal contenders. Seasons when we were supposed to contend and just ended up being overrated and disappointing. Missing the playoffs roughly half the time (4 out of 7 ain't bad, right?) and finishing with 8 or 9 wins. The same problems persisting for most of a decade straight, and multiple failed attempts to address it. Being a second-tier outside contender and trending flat, not upward.

And there's no difference except the fans are impatient? The problem is that there's something wrong with ME, not anything wrong with the team? You'll forgive me for not buying that.

It's clear as day there's a big goddamn difference. The fans-are-spoiled argument has run its course; maybe a few years ago you could say it, but not now. Not after this long. Now it sounds more like something that people say who just want to argue but don't want to hear anything back.

Interesting that you say 4 out of 7, instead of 4 out of 5. One could just as easily say 6 out of 9... or, 0 out of 1. Regardless, let’s include the two rebuilding seasons.

bolded = playoffs

2012: rebuild
2013: rebuild
2014: lost to rival
2015: lost to Super Bowl winner
2016: lost to Super Bowl winner
2017: lost to Jags (who have our number)
2018: missed playoffs

Aside from this past season, I’m not sure how you can say that the Steelers have been marginal contenders. Losing in the playoffs to a) our rival, and b) two Super Bowl champions is not (IMO) marginal. But, to each his own.

[AtlantaDan]

"I am certain there are a lot of potential coaching candidates out there that neither you nor I have heard of yet, but they exist.”

"OK, name them."

"But I just said we haven't heard--"

"SEE! I TOLD YOU THAT YOU COULDN'T NAME THEM, I'M RIGHT!!!!"

When you really want to make point using the CAPS LOCK is always effective I guess :coffee:

Of course coaching candidates exist - 8 of them are being hired this offseason and the next time there is not a coaching candidate that is selected to fill a vacancy will be the first

It is a lot easier to say hire a good one than come up with one - sorry I asked for a clarification on what your "just hire someone else" should involve rather than ask please do go on about how horrible Tomlin is


It's clear as day there's a big goddamn difference. The fans-are-spoiled argument has run its course; maybe a few years ago you could say it, but not now. Not after this long. Now it sounds more like something that people say who just want to argue but don't want to hear anything back.

If the Chiefs, regarded as one of the better run franchises in the NFL over the years, win tonight they will return to the Super Bowl for the first time in 49 seasons.

Yeah, it is absolutely unconscionable that Steelers fans have not been able to celebrate a Super Bowl victory in 10 seasons or a Super Bowl appearance for 8 seasons. :mad:

[pczach]

The difference is that they were among the top contenders for most/all of those years and had a number of near misses. The Montana/Young 49ers had a similar stretch of several years where bad breaks or one specific problem (no running game) held them back. Then they addressed that problem and went straight back to competing for and winning championships again. Both were still first-rate teams and first-tier contenders the whole time.

In Tomlin's case, there have been several seasons being out of contention or only marginal contenders. Seasons when we were supposed to contend and just ended up being overrated and disappointing. Missing the playoffs roughly half the time (4 out of 7 ain't bad, right?) and finishing with 8 or 9 wins. The same problems persisting for most of a decade straight, and multiple failed attempts to address it. Being a second-tier outside contender and trending flat, not upward.

And there's no difference except the fans are impatient? The problem is that there's something wrong with ME, not anything wrong with the team? You'll forgive me for not buying that.

It's clear as day there's a big goddamn difference. The fans-are-spoiled argument has run its course; maybe a few years ago you could say it, but not now. Not after this long. Now it sounds more like something that people say who just want to argue but don't want to hear anything back.


That was in the days when DeBartolo owned the team and Carmen Policy, along with the Dallas Cowboys, embraced and then mastered the salary cap before anyone else did. The 49ers also didn't have to have a complete rebuild. They transitioned from Montana to Young. If they needed more defense....they'd just go sign the best CB in football in the offseason Deion Sanders. Dallas and San Francisco did this for years by manipulating the salary cap because they figured it out before anyone else did. They won championships with multiple coaches. You can't say that it was all about the coaching when they kept winning with any coach they put in there as long as they spent a shitload of money and the front office people were just smarter than everybody else in figuring out how to manipulate the salary cap. Some people even claim DeBartolo paid players outside the cap by other means. Those were different times.

You're not talking about apples to apples here and a team restricted to a strict salary cap structure like Tomlin's Steelers are in today's game with everyone on an even playing field and is up to speed with how to manipulate the cap structure.

[steelreserve]

When you really want to make point using the CAPS LOCK is always effective I guess :coffee:

Of course coaching candidates exist - 8 of them are being hired this offseason and the next time there is not a coaching candidate that is selected to fill a vacancy will be the first

It is a lot easier to say hire a good one than come up with one - sorry I asked for a clarification on what your "just hire someone else" should involve rather than ask please do go on about how horrible Tomlin is

The entire point is that there is only ONE question that matters: "Is Tomlin doing the right things to take this team toward a championship or not?” Yes/No. Right now, the answer looks like no - we treaded water for several seasons and then took a step back.

So you say "This isn't working, we need to do something else," and you begin your search. Not, "We won't do anything because I'm scared to even look unless a perfect solution is presented right in front of my face."

The point is that there are indeed options out there, and that yes we will find an acceptable one if we look, even if we don't have the ideal candidate in mind before hand. In fact, much of the time you have an ideal candidate in mind beforehand, you don't get him, or you ignore better options by having tunnel vision. Happens in the draft all the time too.

Again, "Is the current coach's performance enough?" should not be confused with "What will be the theoretical performance of a hypothetical coach who I cannot even possibly know who it is, especially since I am limiting my own pool of candidates, for argument's sake, to people who are unlikely to be hired in any case." One matters, the other is just punching the air.


If the Chiefs, regarded as one of the better run franchises in the NFL over the years, win tonight they will return to the Super Bowl for the first time in 49 seasons.

Yeah, it is absolutely unconscionable that Steelers fans have not been able to celebrate a Super Bowl victory in 10 seasons or a Super Bowl appearance for 8 seasons. :mad:

Holy shit, thank you for clearing that up. I had been under the impression that the goal of having a team in the NFL was to win the championship. But it's actually to be pretty good and have people think your organization is classy.

I had the wrong idea the whole time! Just lower your expectations, and suddenly you're doing great like the Chiefs!

Boy, I wish we could be like the Chiefs. Because if they make the Super Bowl, people will definitely be saying "These guys earned it through patience, and this is the payoff for 49 years of making the right moves, what a true example of the right way to do things." And they won't be saying, "Man, these poor sons of bitches haven't won shit since the '70s, even though they were kind of ok sometimes, these fans are way overdue for something to cheer about." No, they certainly won't be saying THAT. They'll say the first one because they know the true meaning of being a FAN, like you.

Tell you what, if they say the first one instead of the second, I owe you a Coke.

[teegre]

If I’m reading this correctly, the current Steelers are in third place.

1. 1980s Niners
2. 2000s Taperiots
3. 2010s Steelers

Yep. We’re not as good as the first two. Tomlin isn’t as good as Walsh or Belichick. Sounds about right.

[GoSlash27]

I had the wrong idea the whole time! Just lower your expectations, and suddenly you're doing great like the Chiefs!

Not too far from the truth. Unrealistically high expectations coupled with impatience leads to disaster. Just ask a Browns fan.

[steelreserve]

If I’m reading this correctly, the current Steelers are in third place.

1. 1980s Niners
2. 2000s Taperiots
3. 2010s Steelers

Yep. We’re not as good as the first two. Tomlin isn’t as good as Walsh or Belichick. Sounds about right.

You gave the Patriots as an example of a team that has had more recent success but the fans were still impatient but it turned out not to be justified, therefore if they were too impatient, we are also too impatient. My response was that those organizations made the moves necessary to recapture their success, and we have not. And also that their impatience was not justified because those teams remained top contenders, and a key difference is that we have not remained top contenders.

Actually, the 2010s Steelers may not even be among the top 30 or 40 teams of all time. They haven't won anything, just had the same run of almost-success as a lot of teams ... and a lot of those teams have gotten closer, or actually won one.

It's like people conveniently switch the "past championships" argument on or off as needed to argue that whatever we're doing right now is working. Clearly we've taken a step backwards - what does what happened 10 years ago have to do with that? It reminds me of those Packers fans who are always bragging about all the semi-pro rugby championships they won before there was electricity.



Not too far from the truth. Unrealistically high expectations coupled with impatience leads to disaster. Just ask a Browns fan.

Not the same thing. If you are in a position where success is within reach, but you fritter it away because you were waiting for the stars to align and you missed a bold move that could've pushed you over the top ... that is a lot different from just being so incompetent in general that you are basically acting at random and you never get off the bottom.

[GoSlash27]

Sorry, but "incompetent in general and basically acting at random" is a fine description of fans IMO. Particularly those who think they know better than the FO when it comes to running a successful NFL franchise.
The difference between the Browns and the Steelers is that the Browns cave to "fire the bums" fan pressure and the Steelers don't.

[Mojouw]

This is like the old they've done nothing to address the offensive line threads. Except they had thrown draft picks at it, only to see them fail. It's the same with the secondary. They've done about all they can. It just hasn't worked out.

Like what more could they be doing? They cant make teams cut a Joe Haden every year.

[teegre]

You gave the Patriots as an example of a team that has had more recent success but the fans were still impatient but it turned out not to be justified, therefore if they were too impatient, we are also too impatient. My response was that those organizations made the moves necessary to recapture their success, and we have not. And also that their impatience was not justified because those teams remained top contenders, and a key difference is that we have not remained top contenders.

Again...

2014: lost to rival
2015: lost to Super Bowl winner
2016: lost to Super Bowl winner
2017: lost to Jags (who have our number)
2018: missed playoffs

Aside from this past season, I’m not sure how you can say that the Steelers have been marginal contenders. Losing in the playoffs to a) our rival, and b) two Super Bowl champions is not (IMO) marginal.

Oh, and Tomlin isn’t as good as Walsh or Belichick. Yet, neither of them will be coaching the Steelers. Ever. Weird.

Lastly, the Taperiots cheated. I’m sorry, but I don’t condone that. :noidea: To each his own.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

This is like the old they've done nothing to address the offensive line threads. Except they had thrown draft picks at it, only to see them fail. It's the same with the secondary. They've done about all they can. It just hasn't worked out.

Like what more could they be doing? They cant make teams cut a Joe Haden every year.

If only somebody could have seen that Artie Burns was a big reach in the 1st round, they could have used that pick on a player that might help the secondary. :doh:

[Mojouw]

If only somebody could have seen that Artie Burns was a big reach in the 1st round, they could have used that pick on a player that might help the secondary. :doh:

Sure. And same with some of the garbage o line picks that were made like Hills and Adams. But the charge of doing nothing was wrong then and it's wrong now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[steelreserve]

This is like the old they've done nothing to address the offensive line threads. Except they had thrown draft picks at it, only to see them fail. It's the same with the secondary. They've done about all they can. It just hasn't worked out.

Like what more could they be doing? They cant make teams cut a Joe Haden every year.

What you just described is as good an example I can think of for the effect of good coaching versus a lack of good coaching.

What more we could do is bring in a coach with more skill at player development, and who can either identify a coordinator who can run a good defense, or has a good scheme himself and just uses the coordinator as a middle manager.

It really does not look like Tomlin knows how to teach players to get the most out of their abilities, or to teach groups of players to be more than the sum of their parts. It only happens here and there in spots, where we have an outstanding position coach or coordinator. I guess you could rely on bringing in great coaches at all 6 or 7 position coach or coordinator positions, but then you're really missing the point. Top head coaches know how to make these things happen. It's an intangible that he doesn't have, and one of his biggest problems that for some reason is not talked about as much as the stupid shit like timeouts and 4th-and-1 plays that really doesnt matter too much in the grand scheme of things. A top coach would have solved the defensive problem and other problems given 10 goddamn years to do it.

[Born2Steel]

This is like the old they've done nothing to address the offensive line threads. Except they had thrown draft picks at it, only to see them fail. It's the same with the secondary. They've done about all they can. It just hasn't worked out.

Like what more could they be doing? They cant make teams cut a Joe Haden every year.

Agreed. Burns, Davis, Mitchell, Haden, Allen, Edmunds, Sutton, Hilton, Sensabaugh, other Allen, Berhe, Burnett, gotta be forgetting somebody that the Steelers brought in or drafted to help fix the secondary. Some of these attempts have worked, some not so much. BUT, there is evidence of recognizing a problem and making moves to correct it.

ILB, maybe not as much yet. Bostic, and Spence.

[steelreserve]

Again...

2014: lost to rival
2015: lost to Super Bowl winner
2016: lost to Super Bowl winner
2017: lost to Jags (who have our number)
2018: missed playoffs

Aside from this past season, I’m not sure how you can say that the Steelers have been marginal contenders. Losing in the playoffs to a) our rival, and b) two Super Bowl champions is not (IMO) marginal.

Oh, and Tomlin isn’t as good as Walsh or Belichick. Yet, neither of them will be coaching the Steelers. Ever. Weird.

Lastly, the Taperiots cheated. I’m sorry, but I don’t condone that. :noidea: To each his own.

In each of those years, they had a fatal deficiency that was obvious before the start of the season, and it was going to be the limiting factor keeping the team from competing for a championship, and it turned out that's exactly what happened. The ceiling was being a marginal contender and that's what we ended up being. Same level of success as the '90s Oilers I mentioned before. They were pretty good, but you KNEW they weren't winning it all. They just weren't set up for that. Same thing.

I also don't recall anyone winning the Super Bowl in 2015, so I don't know where you got that idea from.

[st33lersguy]

If your goal as a fan is merely non-losing season every year, then Tomlin is your guy. If your goal is to win a Super Bowl, then it's looking more and more like Tomlin is not the guy as the years go on.

[Born2Steel]

What you just described is as good an example I can think of for the effect of good coaching versus a lack of good coaching.

What more we could do is bring in a coach with more skill at player development, and who can either identify a coordinator who can run a good defense, or has a good scheme himself and just uses the coordinator as a middle manager.

It really does not look like Tomlin knows how to teach players to get the most out of their abilities, or to teach groups of players to be more than the sum of their parts. It only happens here and there in spots, where we have an outstanding position coach or coordinator. I guess you could rely on bringing in great coaches at all 6 or 7 position coach or coordinator positions, but then you're really missing the point. Top head coaches know how to make these things happen. It's an intangible that he doesn't have, and one of his biggest problems that for some reason is not talked about as much as the stupid shit like timeouts and 4th-and-1 plays that really doesnt matter too much in the grand scheme of things. A top coach would have solved the defensive problem and other problems given 10 goddamn years to do it.

You are having a short memory lapse, a bout with revisionist history, or a digging your heels in no matter what episode. The defensive issues on this current group of Steelers began when Shazier went down. And check the stat book but the Steelers still managed to finish this last, overall disappointing, season with a better defensive standing than the previous year. So by your very own criteria, Tomlin did that.

[steelreserve]

If your goal as a fan is merely non-losing season every year, then Tomlin is your guy. If your goal is to win a Super Bowl, then it's looking more and more like Tomlin is not the guy as the years go on.

This is the best way of summarizing what I have spent thousands of useless words trying to elaborate on.


You are having a short memory lapse, a bout with revisionist history, or a digging your heels in no matter what episode. The defensive issues on this current group of Steelers began when Shazier went down. And check the stat book but the Steelers still managed to finish this last, overall disappointing, season with a better defensive standing than the previous year. So by your very own criteria, Tomlin did that.

The defense still wasn't very good. It was a problem that dogged us all season.

"Better than total dogshit" is not a very high bar to set, or much to be proud of.

[Born2Steel]

This is the best way of summarizing what I have spent thousands of useless words trying to elaborate on.



The defense still wasn't very good. It was a problem that dogged us all season.

"Better than total dogshit" is not a very high bar to set, or much to be proud of.

Top 10 in rush defense.

Top 10 in pass defense.

Agreed. "Better than total dogshit".

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2018/opp.htm

[AtlantaDan]

If your goal as a fan is merely non-losing season every year, then Tomlin is your guy. If your goal is to win a Super Bowl, then it's looking more and more like Tomlin is not the guy as the years go on.

It is my impression nobody is contending Tomlin was screwed out of being 2018 coach of the year. Instead the question is whether to concede the inevitable and can him now or, given the crap shot of hiring coaches that can make a bad situation worse, give Tomlin more time to see if he can fix the problems before pulling the trigger.

So if it is looking "more and more like Tomlin is not the guy" do you think he should have been fired three weeks ago after his team reached the AFC championship game two seasons ago, where he was outcoached by Belichick, and 8 seasons since he last reached the Super Bowl?

If so, when should Cowher have been fired?

1999 after two consecutive losing seasons following an AFC championship game appearance in 1997 and coaching a 1999 team that was regarded as being out of control?

Lack of discipline fuels Steelers' fall

There's no telling how far the Steelers would have regressed if their season hadn't come to a merciful conclusion yesterday. But based on the evidence presented at Three River Stadium, it wasn't hard to picture some pretty awful play from a team that -- and this seems hard to believe today -- was in the AFC title game two seasons ago....

It was an ugly ending to an ugly season and it certainly had to give Dan Rooney pause. He knows who's running the organization. He is. He just has to be wondering who's running the team.

http://old.post-gazette.com/steelers/20000103smizik2.asp

2003 after a losing season following an AFC championship game appearance in 2001 where he was outcoached by Belichick and 8 seasons after his only Super Bowl?

Or if Tomlin should have been fired three weeks ago but Cowher should never have been fired is that because Cowher never had a HOF QB (FWIW that HOF QB has never made All Pro and while very, very good has rarely been placed on the same top shelf as Peyton, Brady, Brees & Rodgers) until 2004?

Consider the possibility AJRII is applying the same standards his father applied with Cowher - a coach with a past record of success should be given time to work through some bad seasons given the alternative of blowing it all up with the possibility it gets even worse

[Edman]

I think if the 2010's Steelers overachieved, played their hearts out and continually fell short, I think people would a lot less tough on Tomlin. Even if the Steelers lost, it would suck, but at least they gave it their damndest each and every week. These Steelers don't give off the impression that they are doing their damndest to win. They are Ill-prepared, sloppy, and lethargic. Banking on their talent to carry their way to a win.

The Jaguars playoff game is a complete microcosm of this team this half-decade. Immensely talented, but ill-prepared for an opponent. Especially one that kicked their ass earlier in the year. Bell skipping practice before the game says it all. Ben spots the Jaguars 14 early points and the rest is history.

We can blame the loss of Shazier all we want. The fact remains is that the Steelers are poorly coached. They have the talent, but don't do the extra stuff that makes champions.

[Mojouw]

So the theory is that the starting QB and other players just coast through?

Would that be AV, Heyward, Tuitt, VW, or Watt? What about Foster, Decastro, or Pouncey?

I know his name is mud right now, but would that be the star WR who consistently endangers his body to cross the goal line to beat teams. When was that Ravens game again?

[Mojouw]

I think the amount of talent on this roster is wildly overestimated. Or, at least it is relative to other upper-echelon teams. Very few teams in the league are just "stacked" and the Steelers are one on offense, but not on defense.

AB, Juju, Ben, and the offensive line, I put on par with anyone in the league. Conner is good, but I agree with many others that alot of guys could put those stats up behind that line. Fieler was a MASSIVE downgrade, especially in the run game, from Gilbert and it just never gets mentioned. Gameplans changed with Feiler in there. The team ran to the left far more and pulled Decastro a lot less. One of their best early season running plays was DeCastro and Gilbert leading Conner around the right side. Rarely saw that with Feiler and it was less effective when it did get pulled out.

Tuitt/Hargrave/Heyward I would put up there with any 3 man line aside from Houston's. Watt is stepping into his own as a pass rusher, but is not a game-wrecking match-up beater. The entire rest of the linebackers on the roster are average at best. The secondary is Joe Haden and the league average replacement level talents. The team gets no plays from its safeties because one of them was a rookie and the other spent most of the season as an emergency last line of defense covering for the potential busted coverage by the likes of Sensabaugh, Hilton (something happened over the course of the season and dude forget how to not stink), Sutton, and Burns. Hard to play complex coverage schemes when only 2 members of the starting secondary are within shouting distance of "above average NFL player".

The talent alone on this roster says 8-10 wins. Coaching may be able to put it over the top and get to 10-12. But until playmakers emerge on defense - meaning players who generate stops on 3rd downs and create turnovers - this is a 10 win team on talent alone. It just isn't some juggernaut that should be steam-rolling over other competent NFL teams. I hate to say this, because it is sad on so many levels and it will be dismissed as excuse making. But put Shazier in the middle of this exact same defense and I truly believe you have a 12+ winning roster. That is how thin the margin is in the NFL and how good I believe Shazier was.

[NCSteeler]

This is like the old they've done nothing to address the offensive line threads. Except they had thrown draft picks at it, only to see them fail. It's the same with the secondary. They've done about all they can. It just hasn't worked out.

Like what more could they be doing? They cant make teams cut a Joe Haden every year.But didn't really good coaching fix the offensive line?

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

[teegre]

Let’s see. Here are the only “great” coaches in the NFL (the definition of “great” appears to be a HC who has won a Super Bowl) since Tomlin won his championship in 2008.

2009: Payton... but, (as I posted elsewhere) he has missed the playoffs 4 out of the last 7 seasons (with the best QB in the NFL).

2010: McCarthy... uh... hmmm.

2011: Coughlin... uh... next.

2012: Harbaugh... but, he’s only been to the playoffs twice since then his championship.

2013: Carroll... :nod:

2014: Belichick... cheater.

2015: Kubiak... maybe??? :noidea:

2016: Belichick... still a cheater.

2017: Pederson... maybe.

SUMMATION:
Carroll is the only (non-cheating) HC who is not in the same state of “limbo” where Tomlin currently resides. Pederson seems like he could be the second-best (non-cheating) HC, but let’s see where his team is once his franchise QB needs to get paid.

[Mojouw]

But didn't really good coaching fix the offensive line?

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

It played a role. But the point is that the team did things to fix the O-line. It took some time but a combination of draft picks, FA's, scheme changes, and coaching all played some role in changing things for the better.

To say that the secondary is having nothing done is to ignore reality. Draft picks, FA's, coaching, and scheme change are all being thrown at the problem.

The "correct" decisions may not being made, but that is a different argument than what I see getting made. To say that things are being done does not mean that I am also saying that it is working well or that other things can not also be tried, but the following myths just make me grind my teeth:

1. The Steelers don't sign important FAs. They have been signing multiple guys each season for years now at critical positions. They have just not all worked out. So maybe they signed the wrong guys, but they are signing a number of guys each off-season.

2. They've done nothing to fix the secondary. I would argue that starting new guys back there most off-seasons and firing the DBs coach qualifies as something. Now, I argue it isn't enough and that there were other moves to be made (Brashaud Breeland was sitting and home and waiting for anyone to call him. He certainly would've looked better than Sensabaugh) but to just repeatedly state that they aren't doing anything is incorrect.

3. The players are lazy and don't try hard. Really? Who is it that you see dogging it during games? Who do you see packing it in and not fighting hard during late game comebacks? Now we can identify guys that don't seem to know particular assignments or are being consistently asked to do things they are not good at doing -- but that is a different discussion.

[GoSlash27]

If your goal as a fan is merely non-losing season every year, then Tomlin is your guy. If your goal is to win a Super Bowl, then it's looking more and more like Tomlin is not the guy as the years go on.

Fans aren't in charge, so we don't have "goals". Goals are for people with the power to attain them. What we have is hopes and wishes.

It is my hope that the Steelers have a winning season and I'm happy whenever they make the playoffs. I *could* have higher hopes than that... but really I'd just be setting myself up for perennial disappointment. I find I'm a happier person this way ;)

[Steeler-in-west]

We’ve done as well as we’ve done more because of the talent on the field than the coaching. I just don’t see what edge or advantage our coaches bring to the table. In fact, obvious coaching mistakes have cost us at least 2-3 games. (To be fair our kicker lost us at least that much as well).

Bottom line, I would much rather have a Sean McVay or an Anthony Lynn coaching our team, good coaching would maximize the talent we have. I’m sure the Steelers would be playing today.

[Mojouw]

Would that be the Anthony Lynn that showed up in the AFC Divisional Round with a gameplan that somehow failed to account for the Patriots passing the ball to their RBs and stuck with a multiple DB sub-package even after Sony Michel and Patterson ran right through and over it?

I'll take McVay as well over about anyone right now. His offensive play calls and aggressiveness are great to watch.

[pczach]

Would that be the Anthony Lynn that showed up in the AFC Divisional Round with a gameplan that somehow failed to account for the Patriots passing the ball to their RBs and stuck with a multiple DB sub-package even after Sony Michel and Patterson ran right through and over it?

I'll take McVay as well over about anyone right now. His offensive play calls and aggressiveness are great to watch.



I swear.....half the people here never watch a single football game the Steelers don't play in.....

[Mojouw]

I swear.....half the people here never watch a single football game the Steelers don't play in.....

I have no idea. I feel like I'm gonna hear something good about Jason Garrett next.

[Steeler-in-west]

I swear.....half the people here never watch a single football game the Steelers don't play in.....

Do we need to watch every other damn game? Most of us watch enough outside the steeler games.

lynn took a mediocre 9-7 team and turned them into a 12-4 contender in one season. He looks a heck of a lot better than our coaches right now.

Of course if I had my choice it would be McVay as well. When the time comes I hope the steelers find someone like him.

[Mojouw]

If the Steelers could add Bosa and James in back to back years, I'm pretty sure they go 12-4 as well.

[teegre]

Do we need to watch every other damn game? Most of us watch enough outside the steeler games.

lynn took a mediocre 9-7 team and turned them into a 12-4 contender in one season. He looks a heck of a lot better than our coaches right now.

Of course if I had my choice it would be McVay as well. When the time comes I hope the steelers find someone like him.

Lynn turned the Chargers around... and then... had one of the worst gameplans in recent playoff history.

[Mojouw]

Lynn turned the Chargers around... and then... had one of the worst gameplans in recent playoff history.

Pretty much the same gameplan that drives 6 months of fire everyone threads around here. In fact, I'm not sure that Dick Lebeau wasn't somehow involved in that gameplan!

[pczach]

I have no idea. I feel like I'm gonna hear something good about Jason Garrett next.


If Tomlin and Butler rolled out that game plan, the internet would spontaneously combust.

If Big Ben played like Rivers did for every meaningful moment of that game.....he would be crucified.

If the Steelers were down 38-7 against the Patriots, Mike Tomlin would be considered underqualified for a high school coaching position.....but Lynn is considered an upgrade.

Such is the nature of some fans.

[teegre]

Pretty much the same gameplan that drives 6 months of fire everyone threads around here. In fact, I'm not sure that Dick Lebeau wasn't somehow involved in that gameplan!

1. The Tebow game (2011)

2. playing the quarter defense (zone to make it worse) against Brady (2018)

[pczach]

If the Steelers could add Bosa and James in back to back years, I'm pretty sure they go 12-4 as well.


All you need is a couple 4-5 win seasons and voila!

[Mojouw]

1. The Tebow game (2011)

2. playing the quarter defense (zone to make it worse) against Brady (2018)

Those are the ones. We could add others. But all this Chargers talk is making me think about another thing.

Remember how a NT would save things? Then the Bucs drafted one instead of Derwin James? Wonder how many people still have jobs if the Bucs took James?

[teegre]

Those are the ones. We could add others. But all this Chargers talk is making me think about another thing.

Remember how a NT would save things? Then the Bucs drafted one instead of Derwin James? Wonder how many people still have jobs if the Bucs took James?

I’d have given up a lot of picks to get Derwin James.

[pczach]

Do we need to watch every other damn game? Most of us watch enough outside the steeler games.

lynn took a mediocre 9-7 team and turned them into a 12-4 contender in one season. He looks a heck of a lot better than our coaches right now.

Of course if I had my choice it would be McVay as well. When the time comes I hope the steelers find someone like him.



You're the one that mentioned Lynn. If you don't want hear about it, don't mention a coach that rolled out one of the worst game plans in playoff history as an upgrade over Tomlin.

If you think that was a good game plan in a big spot, and want that on your team going forward...…explain why that happened and why that won't happen again going forward here.

[Steeler-in-west]

You're the one that mentioned Lynn. If you don't want hear about it, don't mention a coach that rolled out one of the worst game plans in playoff history as an upgrade over Tomlin.

If you think that was a good game plan in a big spot, and want that on your team going forward...…explain why that happened and why that won't happen again going forward here.

What? When did I say I don’t want to hear about Lynn? And yeah, he does look better than Tomlin right now. One shitty game? Our Tomlin has had more than a few recently. I’m done with Tomlin, have been since that wonderful playoff showing last year against Jacksonville. I trusted the FO’s judgement when they brought him back and hoped things would turn around but it’s the same underachieving season. I’m convinced we’re going to keep underachieving as long as Tomlin and co are around.

[Fire Goodell]

If he loses another game to a 3 win team he needs to go. I don't care what his overall W/L record is, he's been bailed a lot by having one of the top QB's for many years.

I don't care what anybody says but losing to the Raiders is just inexcusable. They'd probably have the #1 pick in the draft if we didn't shit the bed against them.

That game pretty much ruined our season, as well as Boswell not being able to make a kick in week 1. Had those 2 things not happened, we'd have had the #2 seed and who knows what could have been. This was one of the best teams we've had in years, and jack shit to show for it.

[BnG_Hevn]

I don't think its the beginning of the end. I think the Steelers will continue to stick with Tomlin for a long time because of what Art said regarding his contract. He was asked if Mike is going to get an contract extension and he said we'll deal with it when we normally do which is always during training camp. I'm assuming they're going to extend his contract this upcoming summer.

Problem is that the Rooney's won't pull the trigger. Cowher knew when to exit, Tomlin will milk this cow for as long as he can. And why not? You make X millions of $$, milk it and when you leave, retire and go into broadcasting.

If Cowher is a legend, then Tomlin will be too; they each have 1 SB win and 1 loss.

[86WARD]

Here’s a question: if Tomlin is a Top coach in the league, where is his “coaching tree”? Most of the time a head coach, especially one that has been in the league as long as Tomlin has, starts to develop a coaching tree of sorts. Where is Tomlin’s?

[Shoes]

Here’s a question: if Tomlin is a Top coach in the league, where is his “coaching tree”? Most of the time a head coach, especially one that has been in the league as long as Tomlin has, starts to develop a coaching tree of sorts. Where is Tomlin’s?


They are on a long leash.

[86WARD]

Lol. I mean is that a valid question??

[HollywoodSteel]

Tomlin was being talked about for coach of the year after the Jags game. Overcoming all that drama and the team stuck together. I bought into the hype too.

I actually love the way the team seems bonded, especially to Ben.

As far as strategy, he relies on his staff. He screwed up with AB but I think he’s a fine HC with the right coordinators. But what do I know?

[HollywoodSteel]

Lynn made good offensive adjustments against us in the second half and exploited our ridiculous coverage schemes.

But I don’t think he has the right defensive personnel to beat the Patriots. They kept rushing only from the outside through most of the game. If you can’t get INSIDE pressure on Brady and take away his ability to step into throws he’ll pick you apart.

That’s why I’m eager to see what Donald and Suh can do to him from the inside. :)

[86WARD]

Tomlin was being talked about for coach of the year after the Jags game. Overcoming all that drama and the team stuck together. I bought into the hype too.

I actually love the way the team seems bonded, especially to Ben.

As far as strategy, he relies on his staff. He screwed up with AB but I think he’s a fine HC with the right coordinators. But what do I know?

But is he smart enough to get the “right coordinators”? Currently, I’d have to say no on 2/3...

[Michael]

Here’s a question: if Tomlin is a Top coach in the league, where is his “coaching tree”? Most of the time a head coach, especially one that has been in the league as long as Tomlin has, starts to develop a coaching tree of sorts. Where is Tomlin’s?

Wow !!! Excellent Question & Point made. The evidence to me is overwhelming that Tomlin is not the coach for the Steelers, Just another excellent point made. I am just adjusting and tolerating him because after over 65 years the being a Steeler fan I just can't stop. Hard as it is and believe it is hard.

I simply do not like Bullshitters and smooth talkers who can not back it up.Giving Tomlin one year to go deep into the play offs , meaning getting into the AFC championship game is fair and understandable. This circus that he is responsible for is totally unacceptable in my mind. Excellence Wins. A great book --A no nonsense guide to becoming the best. PS .. Tom Brady rushes to meeting to avoid the wrath of B B & AB is often late and Cool Shades says "When you become that good you can be late too" People is this Tomlin created culture acceptable ??? Excellence Wins, not Glib Talk.

[Michael]

But is he smart enough to get the “right coordinators”? Currently, I’d have to say no on 2/3...

My first guess is that he lacks the confidence to hire a young talented coach. Such a coach might be in line for his job.

[Born2Steel]

Here’s a question: if Tomlin is a Top coach in the league, where is his “coaching tree”? Most of the time a head coach, especially one that has been in the league as long as Tomlin has, starts to develop a coaching tree of sorts. Where is Tomlin’s?

Where are most any coach's? People are out there just not becoming top tier HCs. What does the Sean Payton tree look like? What about the GOAT Bill Bellicheat? We really need to stop trying to hunt down ways to judge Tomlin by comparing him with other organizations. It ONLY matters what he does and what he does for the Steelers. Otherwise it's just a circular conversation.

[Born2Steel]

Wow !!! Excellent Question & Point made. The evidence to me is overwhelming that Tomlin is not the coach for the Steelers, Just another excellent point made. I am just adjusting and tolerating him because after over 65 years the being a Steeler fan I just can't stop. Hard as it is and believe it is hard.

I simply do not like Bullshitters and smooth talkers who can not back it up.Giving Tomlin one year to go deep into the play offs , meaning getting into the AFC championship game is fair and understandable. This circus that he is responsible for is totally unacceptable in my mind. Excellence Wins. A great book --A no nonsense guide to becoming the best. PS .. Tom Brady rushes to meeting to avoid the wrath of B B & AB is often late and Cool Shades says "When you become that good you can be late too" People is this Tomlin created culture acceptable ??? Excellence Wins, not Glib Talk.

It's OK to not like how a HC operates and leads a team. But just a blanket 'Tomlin sucks and is not a good coach' is simple BS and ignorance. Who's coaching tree did Pete Carroll fall out of? Holtz at Ark? Monte Kiffin? Or was it Bruce Coslet? Carroll has a proven record of being a damn good HC in college and in the NFL. You can ONLY judge Tomlin by Tomlin. Stop the silly comparisons. It just looks dumb.

[teegre]

Belichick has had a TON of coaches get hired as HCs. The only one who has panned out has been Vrabel. But, I credit his success to his four seasons with the Steelers. :wink02:

ARII has essentially been in charge of hiring (& during) the coordinators. LeBeau was thrust upon Tomlin, and Butler was, too. Arians was an internal promotion by Tomlin. ARII wanted Haley, but Tomlin wanted to make Ben happy; ergo, Ariana was promoted. Arians’s termination was justified, but again, it was an ARII decision... as was replacing him with Haley. Fichtner is (again) a move to keep Ben happy.

So... the one guy that Tomlin has say on (Arians) has had some success. The others... are ARII hires.

[HollywoodSteel]

Belichick has had a TON of coaches get hired as HCs. The only one who has panned out has been Vrabel. But, I credit his success to his four seasons with the Steelers. :wink02:

ARII has essentially been in charge of hiring (& during) the coordinators. LeBeau was thrust upon Tomlin, and Butler was, too. Arians was an internal promotion by Tomlin. ARII wanted Haley, but Tomlin wanted to make Ben happy; ergo, Ariana was promoted. Arians’s termination was justified, but again, it was an ARII decision... as was replacing him with Haley. Fichtner is (again) a move to keep Ben happy.

So... the one guy that Tomlin has say on (Arians) has had some success. The others... are ARII hires.

This is all spot on. You have to look at the specific situation. Tomlin was never in a position to go outside the organization to get “his guy” except if he truly wanted an OC that was better than Haley at the time. But as Teegre says, he was going with what the owner wanted with that hire. And can anyone objectively say that Tomlin was an awful HC by going with that decision? It seemed like a reasonable hire at the time and it probably extended Ben’s career when he started getting hit less.

The other hires were promotions, and situationally understandable.

Yes, special teams is a head scratcher. But as far as coordinators go, where was the objective mistake?

I think he has to keep Butler for another year because Tomlin himself was so instrumental in that defense that he can’t really blame it on Butler. Plus I think that defense improved a lot over the season in many ways. They just need a couple more pieces to the puzzle.

I’m not defending Tomlin’s other mistakes, but I wouldn’t fire him over the coordinator situations.

[DesertSteel]

Here’s a question: if Tomlin is a Top coach in the league, where is his “coaching tree”? Most of the time a head coach, especially one that has been in the league as long as Tomlin has, starts to develop a coaching tree of sorts. Where is Tomlin’s?
He's had terrific success jettisoning coaches into lateral moves with other teams... that's a feather in his cap... obviously...

[smokin3000gt]

:lol:

[Born2Steel]

These next 2 offseasons are crucial for this franchise. What has been a slow rebuild needs to speed up the process quite a bit. Current positions of strength are aging and will be needing replaced soon, as well as the continued rebuilding of already areas of need.

For instance: QB, Ben is firmly the franchise and we can only hope and pray he lasts until Rudolph or Dobbs are ready to take over, or the next franchise is acquired.

RB: Still a position of strength but still in need of one more guy to really solidify the position.

WR: Been a position of strength but the winds of change seem to be blowing. Who knows the future?

OL: Depth is the issue here. Quality OL with unknown depth if Foster and Gilbert become cap casualties. This group needs help over the next 2 years to continue to be one of the league's best.

TE: After McDonald who do we trust to be the starting TE?

DL: Another position of strength that is in terrible need of quality depth.

ILB: What can I say that hasn't been said?

OLB: Somebody has to step up opposite Watt. And there still needs to be a quality backup.

CB: Holy crap did this group take a big step back this year. Still need an outside cover corner. Haden will need replaced in 2-3 seasons so make that need 2 outside cover corners.

Safety: Davis and Edmunds and that's it. I would like to see these 2 as the quality backups but will settle for them improving and acquiring some quality backup.

One thing the organization has to consider is stability during this rebuild. Tomlin is under contract for 2 more years I believe. I think that how the next 2 offseasons go so far as position improvements will play a huge role in Tomlin's future with the Steelers. If the talent level increases to what we are used to seeing I believe Tomlin will be the HC for another decade. If the talent does not improve these next 2 offseasons, Tomlin's contract may just be allowed to expire.

[st33lersguy]

Belichick has had a TON of coaches get hired as HCs. The only one who has panned out has been Vrabel.

You don't think it is a little early to call him a success?

[DesertSteel]

You don't think it is a little early to call him a success?
I was thinking the same thing. Essentially he repeated the same season as the guy they fired.

[teegre]

You don't think it is a little early to call him a success?

I was being nice... trying to agree with everyone that Belichick’s coaching tree is AMAAAZING!!!

But, alas, you are correct: Vrabel is the “best” NFL HC on that tree... which isn’t really saying much.

[HollywoodSteel]

I was being nice... trying to agree with everyone that Belichick’s coaching tree is AMAAAZING!!!

But, alas, you are correct: Vrabel is the “best” NFL HC on that tree... which isn’t really saying much.

How is a successful coaching tree a sign of a good head coach?

If anything, it makes Belichick seem BETTER that he made his coordinators look good, and not the other way around.

[teegre]

How is a successful coaching tree a sign of a good head coach?

If anything, it makes Belichick seem BETTER that he made his coordinators look good, and not the other way around.

Who knows? All I know is...

No matter what: Belichick good, Tomlin bad.

[pczach]

Who knows? All I know is...

No matter what: Belichick good, Tomlin bad.


I understand some of the doubts about Tomlin, but I believe he deserves another year to put this whole thing back together with a good offseason.

He needs to settle the AB situation by making it work with the Steelers and mending fences. He and Colbert need to do well in free agency and in the draft. He then needs to mesh the new talent into the system while finding a way to update the defensive scheme and making the offense more balanced with the running game to help protect the defense.

Many don't believe he can do that. I still think he can if the right moves are made.

[Six Rings]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The Tomlin Dumpster Fire <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Steelers?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Steelers</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/FireTomlin?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#FireTomlin</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/HereWeGo?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#HereWeGo</a> <a href="https://t.co/OEh2qRrrO2">pic.twitter.com/OEh2qRrrO2</a></p>&mdash; Steelers Tweeter (@SteelersFan__) <a href="https://twitter.com/SteelersFan__/status/1084951444208394241?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 14, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
(http://
The Tomlin Dumpster Fire #Steelers #FireTomlin #HereWeGo pic.twitter.com/OEh2qRrrO2
&mdash; Steelers Tweeter (@SteelersFan__) January 14, 2019 )


https://twitter.com/hashtag/firetomlin?lang=en (https://twitter.com/hashtag/firetomlin?lang=en)

[NCSteeler]

How is a successful coaching tree a sign of a good head coach?

If anything, it makes Belichick seem BETTER that he made his coordinators look good, and not the other way around.It's a talking head ESPN measuring stick

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

[SteelMember]

Tomlin on the hot seat? It should be warm... The standard is substandard