Antonio Brown is both right and wrong.

[StillCurtains]

Hello Guys!

I think we can all see that the state of this franchise is a complete mess. The first one that I have to blame is Tomlin. Tomlin is the head coach. He was right for benching AB, but these efforts are too little too late.

The problem with Tomlin is that he has allowed these players “ Free Will” as AB would say, for far too long. All of these incidents over the past several seasons with these players have far been out of control. Ben’s rifts with Haley. Bell and Bryant’s weed habits. Harrison’s last year fiasco. Bryant’s trade tweets. Bell’s absence from the playoff walkthrough as well as his tweet about the Jaguars. Bell’s holdout. AB’s watercooler incident, his facebook live incident, his tweets to Pittsburgh writers, his speeding incident, trashing his Florida apartment and now this.

What’s bad is Tomlin’s laughable efforts in covering all of these things up as if all is well. I need not mention the x-ray machine debacle in Oakland. There is so many issues that it would take forever to list them all.

As far as AB goes, he’s not without blame. Is he a diva? Yes, he is! Does he cause issues in wanting the ball at times? Yes! He is also wrong in how he is handling this. Abandoning the team as he did was wrong. He is also wrong with his video with Harrison while watching Tomlin’s press conference. He’s smearing this in the organization’s face. He’s saying I can’t be controlled.

However, We know that AB isn’t the most mature guy in the world. He wears his emotions and frustrations on his sleeve. I believe most of this goes towards Tomlin and Ben. We can say what we want about AB, but I truly do believe he wants to win.

We are very possibly talking about the best WR to ever play the game by the time he is done. Noone works harder or puts in more work than this guy. This is also a guy that witnesses to the game preparation and practice habits of the coaches and players on a regular basis.

I already talked about Tomlin’s part, but what about Ben? The truth is that Ben isn’t a good leader. Giving players constructive criticism is fine, but Ben’s comments towards teammates are more along the lines of the knife twisting and throwing under the bus variety.

This is a guy that has publicly screamed at AB on the field for running the wrong route as if he were some rookie. The jury is still out if AB actually did run the wrong route or not. Being a veteran receiver with AB’s body of work, I think he has earned the right not to be publicly scolded by his QB.

With Ben, noone can run a wrong route, drop a pass or miss a block. If that is your expectations being a self proclaimed leader, then it needs the requirement of leading by example. It comes by being accountable of your own actions. You have to show the team how to play in a way that gives the team the best chance to win.

As a leader, you can’t criticize a player for dropping a pass while you throw 5 picks. What makes it worse is that your comments about throwing interceptions is: “I’m always going to be a guy that takes chances.”

Do you know what that says to your teammates? The interpretation of that to them is: “Yeah, I threw 3 picks, So what? You better not run the wrong route though!” How do you think that resonates with a player the caliber of AB? Constantly seeing that your QB is never to blame or accountable? This is a player that works and prepares harder than anyone in the league (maybe besides Brady) let alone this football team.

He is one player that you know is going to show up every week on the football field despite everyone else. He is the one player that makes the least amount of errors on the field, than anyone on the team to give them a chance to win.

However, when you are being criticized by your QB while doing 3 times the work, seeing that he never takes blame for his mistakes, it’s bound to make you explode. I’m not giving AB an excuse, but I can understand part of where he is coming from.

Even though AB has his warts, he is one heck of a football player. We know he has a great work ethic, and is extremely talented. Whether you want to call him a diva or not though, what AB also shows on his game tape is his desire to win.

AB may have his faults, but the man also has a point.

[lipps83]

AB is a symptom of a much bigger problem. And just like cancer, if you only treat the symptom instead of the cause the cancer keeps coming back.

In less than 2 years, Harrison, Bell, Brown. 3 of the best players this team has ever seen. Everyone likes to call them cancers, but they are only symptoms. The cause is much deeper.

However, since it is so much easier to treat the symptom than the actual cause and because very few people really like to think deeply because it makes the brain hurt, here we are today.

Its like that pimple that keeps coming back. Sure, you can pop it and it might be gone for quite a few weeks, but the pimple isn't the problem. That is just the irritation that shows on the surface.

[FrancoLambert]

He’s more wrong than right. Much more.

[Dwinsgames]

seen title of thread not gonna bother reading it because it sounds banana republic liberal to me .... a world where nobody takes responsibility for their actions and it is always someone else's fault .....

He has 1 fucking job show up ready to play and listen to his coaches ...

he did neither so fuck him

[smokin3000gt]

AB is a symptom of a much bigger problem. And just like cancer, if you only treat the symptom instead of the cause the cancer keeps coming back.

In less than 2 years, Harrison, Bell, Brown. 3 of the best players this team has ever seen. Everyone likes to call them cancers, but they are only symptoms. The cause is much deeper.

However, since it is so much easier to treat the symptom than the actual cause and because very few people really like to think deeply because it makes the brain hurt, here we are today.

Its like that pimple that keeps coming back. Sure, you can pop it and it might be gone for quite a few weeks, but the pimple isn't the problem. That is just the irritation that shows on the surface.


One thing I see in common with Harrison, Bell, and Brown (and my 4yro son is guilty of this as well) is that they didn't get their way so they threw a hissy fit. That's what it really comes down to in my opinion..

Harrison wanted more money than he was worth, didn't get it so he huffed off to Cinci before he came back. Then he wanted more playing time than he was getting, didn't get it so he pouted during team meetings before storming off to NE. If he got the money and playing time he wanted (it's about him, not the team) then he would've been happy and it wouldn't even be a blip on the radar.

With Bell it's the same thing. The Steelers made a better than good offer but it wasn't what he wanted so he was a no show for the year. Not much you can do about that other than pay him what he wants on his terms. As long as he gets what he wants he's a non-issue.

Brown hasn't been performing as well as he'd like, wants the ball more, and especially doesn't like sharing the MVP spot light with JuJu so he throws some Gatorade cups around, fakes an injury, and doesn't answer the phone like an angry teenager. There have been some flare ups, but this was the first big one and it got him benched plus whatever else. How AB is dealt needs to be calculated, not a knee jerk trade/cut ect.

I'm not surprised these me first players are bumping heads with a team first franchise. I think the 49 other players on the roster that act like grown professionals day in and day out tell the story better than 3 pouty pants acting out.

[hawaiiansteeler]

seen title of thread not gonna bother reading it because it sounds banana republic liberal to me .... a world where nobody takes responsibility for their actions and it is always someone else's fault .....

He has 1 fucking job show up ready to play and listen to his coaches ...

he did neither so fuck him

and he makes more $$$ in one season than I'll make in a lifetime to show up for work, so I agree with you 100%.

[GoSlash27]

I'll swim upstream and agree with the basic premise of this post. Yes, AB's behavior was completely wrong. *But* what triggered it was at least partially a systemic problem in the organization that needs to be addressed.

[hawaiiansteeler]

in the most important game of the season, AB didn't play because he chose to put himself above the team.

now I understand why he slid to the 6th round, there were character concerns in college also...

https://twitter.com/greggabe/status/1080615630045364226

[Mojouw]

in the most important game of the season, AB didn't play because he chose to put himself above the team.

now I understand why he slid to the 6th round, there were character concerns in college also...

https://twitter.com/greggabe/status/1080615630045364226

If you want an intriguing contrast to that Tweet, go read the response post on Deadspin, especially where this jokers track record is laid bare. Dude may be right may not be but is assuredly a clown.

[tom444]

It isn't whether AB is right or wrong, it's that AB is who he is. You hire him, pay him, that's what you get. So the question is can your team absorb him and the luggage he brings with him or not? Same with someone like Harrison. The guy was always a d*ck. You lay down with dogs you get up with fleas. This team needs to decide if it's going to continue sleeping with dogs or not.

[zulater]

Dan Marino, John Unitas, Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Aaron Rodgers , name a great qb and I can dig through the archives and find quotes from them or teammates where they "threw teammates under the bus" to the same degree Ben has. I.E. John Unitas once said to HOF sportswriter John Steadman of HOF TE John Mackey after a particularly bad game, "If I threw this ball over there at that brick wall it would have as good as chance as catching the ball as Mackey." QB' are referred to as field generals for a reason.

Let's not forget Ben has led the Steelers to 3 Super Bowls largely without Antonio Brown. ( Brown did make a few plays towards advancing the Steelers to the SB in 10. Facemask catch in particular). He's done this with marginal receivers such as Ced Wilson and good ones such as Antoine Randel El. Also consider WR's such as Santonio Holmes, Martavis Bryant, and Mike Wallace who flashed super star ability with Ben tossing them the rock. Not so much afterwards.

As far as this season goes. Yes Ben threw too many interceptions ( though his 2.4 int rate was barely above the league average) But no one ever knows for sure how many qb interceptions through a season are based on poorly run routes, a missed read by a receiver, tipped balls due to poor execution by a lineman etc...

Anyway I have never heard of Ben missing any team meetings, practices, game walk-through's, or qb meetings. I've never heard of Ben ducking out the building after a loss and not addressing the press ( except when he was in concussion protocol and prohibited by league rules.) And when doing so I've never seen him not take a disproportinate share of the blame deserved or not. Yes occasionally he might reference a play or player where a play wasn't made or failed in a critical moment. But he's the guy getting asked the most questions. So if you want to make a farce of the whole process ( like Tomlin does with his virtual every press conference) and just have him stand there and spout endless cliches good for you. But him not addressing things there or in other forums ( his radio show for instance) isn't going to change much if anything at all with AB. Because as has been demonstrated numerous times the only time AB is happy is when he's putting up his numbers. I think Ryan Clark was spot on when he said AB is happier when he puts up numbers and the Steelers lose than when they win and his role is limited.

[AtlantaDan]

1080922688749793285

LOL

[lipps83]

I think Ryan Clark was spot on when he said AB is happier when he puts up numbers and the Steelers lose than when they win and his role is limited.

Obviously Clark has an existing grudge with AB. Why wasn't Clark saying this over the last 5 years while everyone was loving AB and AB could do no wrong?

If what he was saying was the truth, then it wouldn't have mattered how everyone else felt. The truth stands alone and uncontested. He never said anything because it is his OPINION (important word). He is only dumping on now because AB is in a rut and Clark can stand out for an I.TOLD.YOU.SO against someone he has a grudge.

How come he never told anyone this before?

He is trying to stand out and being commended for it. He is called humble, nice and having integrity.

Everyone thinks he is telling the truth, but how does anyone really know?

Its a mob mentality.

[Mojouw]

1080922688749793285

LOL

Solid reporting all around. So either the earlier stories are totally flawed or Kaboly thinks he found a flaw but was too lazy to confirm that flaw. Why? In both cases it is only a few hundred characters and no one cares if you are right, just first and spiciest. Twitter is a toilet and really, please stop relying on it to form and support opinions.

I know I should let this go, but having to attempt to drill critical thinking and vetting of sources into students heads 9 months out of the year makes it hard for me.

Another example was the Tweet from a former scout that implied (didn't have the balls to say specifics) that the scouting community knew that AB was flawed in college. Sounds great in a Tweet. Implies that there was specifics, etc. Who Tweeted it? This guy -- https://deadspin.com/former-nfl-scout-issues-truly-hamburger-brained-antonio-1831446478 and was also the Chicago Bears scouting director who helped oversee this draft (the one that seems to have gotten him fired):

2010 Chicago Bears draft choices

Round
Pick
Name
Position
College


3
75
Major Wright (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Wright)
FS
Florida (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Florida)


4
109
Corey Wootton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corey_Wootton)
DE
Northwestern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwestern_University)


5
140
Joshua Moore (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Moore_(American_football))
CB
Kansas State (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_State_University)


6
181
Dan LeFevour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_LeFevour)
QB
Central Michigan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Michigan_University)


7
218
J'Marcus Webb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%27Marcus_Webb)
OT
West Texas A&M (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Texas_A%26M_University)



For interest, these seem to be the other Bears drafts he was involved in -- http://pfref.com/tiny/8iGoD -- and he also argued that the Bears were trading Trubisky for Mayfield.

What is my point? Be careful where you find your information and what you mobilize it for. Especially when dealing with an almost totally unreliable source point such as social media.

[lipps83]

1080922688749793285

LOL

I don't know when the vote was taken (pretty sure it wasn't Christmas Day).

If the vote was indeed Thursday, this just shows how gullible everyone really is. Someone makes up a story (happens all the time) and people believe that made-up story (happens all the time).

AB was upset Wednesday morning because he got his kids each something special for Christmas (AB84 Pendant Necklaces) and the kids didn't like them. He took this as a personal insult and unfortunately threw a ball at Ben Wednesday because he was sad about the necklaces.

More believable than the 'didn't get team MVP' theory.

- - - Updated - - -


What is my point? Be careful where you find your information and what you mobilize it for. Especially when dealing with an almost totally unreliable source point such as social media.

Yeah, but it said on twitter and confirmed by instagrams @joerogan that @dwingames said AB only cares about stats and not winning, so I know my belittlement of AB is justified because winning is more important to me than AB stats, so AB must be wrong and @dwinsgame must be right.

[AtlantaDan]

Obviously Clark has an existing grudge with AB. Why wasn't Clark saying this over the last 5 years while everyone was loving AB and AB could do no wrong?

Ryan Clark has not just jumped on the rip AB bandwagon this week.

This from 2017 after the Gatorade tub toss

“Antonio has done an extremely good job of tricking people ... He’s done a very good spin job of having us think, or making people think who don’t know him, that it’s all about the Pittsburgh Steelers, just a hard worker who’s here to win football games. No, Antonio Brown loves Antonio Brown."

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2017/10/03/antonio-brown-sideline-outburst-ryan-clark-espn/stories/201710030184

This after the locker room Facebook streaming following the playoff win in KC two seasons ago

“He’s so self-absorbed,” [B]Clark said of Brown (http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=18487620). “He’s so about what he’s doing. He’s so about Antonio Brown that it’s not that he’s missing the message that coach is giving, it's that he genuinely does not care that the message is being given. He’s so involved in his bubble that he doesn’t even know what’s going on behind him. He’s not paying attention to the damage that it can cause.”

https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/Former-Steeler-Ryan-Clark-calls-Antonio-Brown-self-absorbed-50593094/

But then again this is from an Uncle Tom so consider the source, eh?

[lipps83]

Ryan Clark has not just jumped on the rip AB bandwagon this week.

This from 2017 after the Gatorade tub toss

“Antonio has done an extremely good job of tricking people ... He’s done a very good spin job of having us think, or making people think who don’t know him, that it’s all about the Pittsburgh Steelers, just a hard worker who’s here to win football games. No, Antonio Brown loves Antonio Brown."

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2017/10/03/antonio-brown-sideline-outburst-ryan-clark-espn/stories/201710030184

This after the locker room Facebook streaming following the playoff win in KC two seasons ago

“He’s so self-absorbed,” [B]Clark said of Brown (http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=18487620). “He’s so about what he’s doing. He’s so about Antonio Brown that it’s not that he’s missing the message that coach is giving, it's that he genuinely does not care that the message is being given. He’s so involved in his bubble that he doesn’t even know what’s going on behind him. He’s not paying attention to the damage that it can cause.”

https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/Former-Steeler-Ryan-Clark-calls-Antonio-Brown-self-absorbed-50593094/

But then again this is from an Uncle Tom so consider the source, eh?

You don't get it. He spoke up after each negative instance and tried to put AB into a more negative light. He is trying to paint a picture for you instead of you painting it yourself.

What did he say after AB had a good game against the Dolphins in the playoffs?

What did he say about AB when AB hung out with a Steelers fan for a week during the 2011 Super Bowl?

What did he say about AB when AB visited the sick kids?

If what he is saying is the truth and not an OPINION, he would never change his tune despite what AB does. He doesn't say anything at all BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SERVE HIS PURPOSE WHICH IS TO CHANGE YOUR OPINION ABOUT AB SO THAT HIS IS REINFORCED.

I am not trying to justify ABs actions, I am trying to get you to understand there is much more to the story.

[lipps83]

If AB was such a bad person as Ryan Clark claims than the following would be taking place:

AB visits sick kids at the hospital. Most people see this as a good action. Ryan Clark, knowing the truth about AB despite AB's good action, Ryan would still want people to know the truth. He would say “Antonio has done an extremely good job of tricking people" because that would be the truth.

The truth stands uncontested. Nobody could argue Ryan's point despite the good action of AB because it would quite literally be impossible.

However, he doesn't say that because it is not true. It is only his opinion. He knows if he did say that that it would paint a very ugly picture of himself instead. He isn't trying to paint an ugly picture of himself, he is trying to paint an ugly picture of AB, with whom he has an existing grudge. The more people that reinforce his opinion and the ugly picture he is painting. He feels more right and justified in his own ugliness.

Negativity breeds negativity and everyone is hopping on the Ryan Clark train because they are believing things that nobody actually knows is not really true. They are just mad right now about everything, so it fits the narrative that is being played in their own minds.

It is, as said before, a mob mentality right now.

[zulater]

Obviously Clark has an existing grudge with AB. Why wasn't Clark saying this over the last 5 years while everyone was loving AB and AB could do no wrong?

If what he was saying was the truth, then it wouldn't have mattered how everyone else felt. The truth stands alone and uncontested. He never said anything because it is his OPINION (important word). He is only dumping on now because AB is in a rut and Clark can stand out for an I.TOLD.YOU.SO against someone he has a grudge.

How come he never told anyone this before?

He is trying to stand out and being commended for it. He is called humble, nice and having integrity.

Everyone thinks he is telling the truth, but how does anyone really know?

Its a mob mentality.

Actually Clark has referenced AB's diva like behaviour going back as far as the KC live facebook fiasco.

Also I remember when AB had a live weekly radio show with Gerry Dulac that he was under contract for. He rarely if ever showed. Dulac would always have to have a former Steeler or a teammate at the ready to fill in. . Can't dress it up or duck it this is not a great guy Those blaming Ben for AB's infantile behaviour is way off base. .

[lipps83]

Actually Clark has referenced AB's diva like behaviour going back as far as the KC live facebook fiasco.

Also I remember when AB had a live weekly radio show with Gerry Dulac that he was under contract for. He rarely if ever showed. Dulac would always have to have a former Steeler or a teammate at the ready to fill in. . Can't dress it up or duck it this is not a great guy Those blaming Ben for AB's infantile behaviour is way off base. .

Right, I didn't realize he called him out for both those before, AtlantaDan pointed that out to me.

So, in a sense it further demonstrated my point that Clark only speaks up when he can help to pile on AB with everyone else. He doesn't say those things because he is right, he says those things because he doesn't like AB and if he could just get you to join his side to, well he benefits and his nemesis doesn't.

That is how Hitler got an entire nation to join him in in his idea to eradicate the Jewish. He was't right about the Jews, but he only ever pointed out problems between German Nationals and the Jewish here and there and slowly got people to buy into his idea. The more people that bought into it, the easier it became to convince others and it keeps on growing. If he told people the truth about he Jewish, well then no would have ever joined him. He only ever told his opinion and got people to buy the ugliness he was selling.

Two entirely scales and degrees of issues here, but the process of trying to convince people of your idea is the same.

And again, I am not trying to justify ABs actions. Just trying to point out there are two sides to every story.

[Mojouw]

It was bound to happen. But we finally touched on Godwin's Law around these parts.

[tube517]

Clark and AB in 2014:

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2014/4/27/5659938/ryan-clark-antonio-brown-comments

[zulater]

Right, I didn't realize he called him out for both those before, AtlantaDan pointed that out to me.

So, in a sense it further demonstrated my point that Clark only speaks up when he can help to pile on AB with everyone else. He doesn't say those things because he is right, he says those things because he doesn't like AB and if he could just get you to join his side to, well he benefits and his nemesis doesn't.

That is how Hitler got an entire nation to join him in in his idea to eradicate the Jewish. He was't right about the Jews, but he only ever pointed out problems between German Nationals and the Jewish here and there and slowly got people to buy into his idea. The more people that bought into it, the easier it became to convince others and it keeps on growing. If he told people the truth about he Jewish, well then no would have ever joined him. He only ever told his opinion and got people to buy the ugliness he was selling.

Two entirely scales and degrees of issues here, but the process of trying to convince people of your idea is the same.

And again, I am not trying to justify ABs actions. Just trying to point out there are two sides to every story.

Ryan Clark is doing his job as a commentator and analyst offering first hand insight into a topical player's behavior. I don't think he's trying to form an army against him.

[lipps83]

Ryan Clark is doing his job as a commentator and analyst offering first hand insight into a topical player's behavior. I don't think he's trying to form an army against him.

He isn't trying to form an army. I just used the example as a drastic demonstration of how sometimes people just follow along with an idea, regardless of if that idea is actually correct. The flat earth is another perfect example. You are going to automatically try to align with people if their argument is convincing enough to you and they can back it up with "facts", even though the facts may/may not be true. AB is just someone Clark clearly doesn't care for and if you don't like AB too that is a win for Ryan Clark's ego. He will bury AB every chance he gets.

Look at the article tube517 posted. That is probably just about where all this started between Clark and AB.

[zulater]

Despite all of his previous antics I never disliked AB until he quit on his team. Once you cross that threshold all your prior's (if you have them) come back into new focus and cement your current status of disfavor. In order to regain favorable son status with many of us fans and probably quite a few of his teammates and coaches he will have to come up with a HOF level apology. I hope he does. I certainly know his value to this team and would prefer he stay in the fold.

[lipps83]

I agree. I just don't think he quit on his team because JuJu was team MVP, or really any reason that has been given. That is a pretty disgusting speculation being presented as true. It certainly could be true, but I am going to wait and see what AB says about it (and not Ryan Clark or Deion Sanders) because he is the only one that knows exactly why he did what he did. I think it is a pile up of some frustration of AB that has been going on a couple of years. And Ryan Clark giving his 'opinions' as facts is gross too, and it is sad as well that some people read those opinions as truth. Some people believe the Earth is flat because they don't search for the truth themselves. They are okay with what someone else decided must be true.

Ryan Clark and AB have probably not even been in the same room together in 5 years. Does anyone really think Clark knows what is going through the head of AB? No, he is only speculating.

AB is almost by himself against the world right now. He should absolutely apologize for his actions the last few weeks if he does want to continue to be a part of this team. He does need to self-reflect and adjust his actions accordingly.

[EzraTank]

AB is a douche. I'd tend to believe Ryan Clark over anyone on this message board since you know he like played with him and saw how he acted in the locker room.

[zulater]

AB is a douche. I'd tend to believe Ryan Clark over anyone on this message board since you know he like played with him and saw how he acted in the locker room.

I don't ever have had to step foot in the locker room to know that if he was "just a guy" meaning an average starter or quality reserve or less he would have been long gone from this team.

[lipps83]

AB is a douche. I'd tend to believe Ryan Clark over anyone on this message board since you know he like played with him and saw how he acted in the locker room.

Ryan Clark is a douche too. He just isn't as out and open with it as some other people are. He isn't absent of any personal agenda.

People like to call AB 'selfish'. Every single person in the NFL is in it for themselves first and foremost, otherwise why bother doing it at all...it is just the degree of selfishness that it outwardly expressed that people are upset at AB for. Everyone wants to the ball every single play, just some come right out and say it and people don't like that.

They like people to be humble.

So some people act humble.

Yet, acting humble doesn't mean you are humble. You are an actor playing the part of 'humble person'.

We just don't like to tell the truth about what is really going on in this world.

[hawaiiansteeler]

I don't ever have had to step foot in the locker room to know that if he was "just a guy" meaning an average starter or quality reserve or less he would have been long gone from this team.

if he were he also wouldn't be acting like this either...

[ALLD]

Hello Guys!

I think we can all see that the state of this franchise is a complete mess. The first one that I have to blame is Tomlin. Tomlin is the head coach. He was right for benching AB, but these efforts are too little too late.

The problem with Tomlin is that he has allowed these players “ Free Will” as AB would say, for far too long. All of these incidents over the past several seasons with these players have far been out of control. Ben’s rifts with Haley. Bell and Bryant’s weed habits. Harrison’s last year fiasco. Bryant’s trade tweets. Bell’s absence from the playoff walkthrough as well as his tweet about the Jaguars. Bell’s holdout. AB’s watercooler incident, his facebook live incident, his tweets to Pittsburgh writers, his speeding incident, trashing his Florida apartment and now this.

What’s bad is Tomlin’s laughable efforts in covering all of these things up as if all is well. I need not mention the x-ray machine debacle in Oakland. There is so many issues that it would take forever to list them all.

As far as AB goes, he’s not without blame. Is he a diva? Yes, he is! Does he cause issues in wanting the ball at times? Yes! He is also wrong in how he is handling this. Abandoning the team as he did was wrong. He is also wrong with his video with Harrison while watching Tomlin’s press conference. He’s smearing this in the organization’s face. He’s saying I can’t be controlled.

However, We know that AB isn’t the most mature guy in the world. He wears his emotions and frustrations on his sleeve. I believe most of this goes towards Tomlin and Ben. We can say what we want about AB, but I truly do believe he wants to win.

We are very possibly talking about the best WR to ever play the game by the time he is done. Noone works harder or puts in more work than this guy. This is also a guy that witnesses to the game preparation and practice habits of the coaches and players on a regular basis.

I already talked about Tomlin’s part, but what about Ben? The truth is that Ben isn’t a good leader. Giving players constructive criticism is fine, but Ben’s comments towards teammates are more along the lines of the knife twisting and throwing under the bus variety.

This is a guy that has publicly screamed at AB on the field for running the wrong route as if he were some rookie. The jury is still out if AB actually did run the wrong route or not. Being a veteran receiver with AB’s body of work, I think he has earned the right not to be publicly scolded by his QB.

With Ben, noone can run a wrong route, drop a pass or miss a block. If that is your expectations being a self proclaimed leader, then it needs the requirement of leading by example. It comes by being accountable of your own actions. You have to show the team how to play in a way that gives the team the best chance to win.

As a leader, you can’t criticize a player for dropping a pass while you throw 5 picks. What makes it worse is that your comments about throwing interceptions is: “I’m always going to be a guy that takes chances.”

Do you know what that says to your teammates? The interpretation of that to them is: “Yeah, I threw 3 picks, So what? You better not run the wrong route though!” How do you think that resonates with a player the caliber of AB? Constantly seeing that your QB is never to blame or accountable? This is a player that works and prepares harder than anyone in the league (maybe besides Brady) let alone this football team.

He is one player that you know is going to show up every week on the football field despite everyone else. He is the one player that makes the least amount of errors on the field, than anyone on the team to give them a chance to win.

However, when you are being criticized by your QB while doing 3 times the work, seeing that he never takes blame for his mistakes, it’s bound to make you explode. I’m not giving AB an excuse, but I can understand part of where he is coming from.

Even though AB has his warts, he is one heck of a football player. We know he has a great work ethic, and is extremely talented. Whether you want to call him a diva or not though, what AB also shows on his game tape is his desire to win.

AB may have his faults, but the man also has a point.



I have always said Tomlin is more concerned about fabricating his mythical place in NFL history rather than winning Super Bowls and allowing his peers to judge for themselves.

Kind of reminds me of a recent past President of the USA.

Consider his regular platitudes and attempted stylishness in place of disciple and consistency, especially when it comes to beating inferior teams. Then there is are simple details like clock mismanagement. Yes, give credit for Tomlin drafting some of the best offensive skill players available, but criticize him for huge misses and a complete basket case of a locker room.

If he is not terminated, then his existing contract should not be renewed.

The Bell and Brown issues are direct results of his mismanagement.

[StillCurtains]

Dan Marino, John Unitas, Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Aaron Rodgers , name a great qb and I can dig through the archives and find quotes from them or teammates where they "threw teammates under the bus" to the same degree Ben has. I.E. John Unitas once said to HOF sportswriter John Steadman of HOF TE John Mackey after a particularly bad game, "If I threw this ball over there at that brick wall it would have as good as chance as catching the ball as Mackey." QB' are referred to as field generals for a reason.

Let's not forget Ben has led the Steelers to 3 Super Bowls largely without Antonio Brown. ( Brown did make a few plays towards advancing the Steelers to the SB in 10. Facemask catch in particular). He's done this with marginal receivers such as Ced Wilson and good ones such as Antoine Randel El. Also consider WR's such as Santonio Holmes, Martavis Bryant, and Mike Wallace who flashed super star ability with Ben tossing them the rock. Not so much afterwards.

As far as this season goes. Yes Ben threw too many interceptions ( though his 2.4 int rate was barely above the league average) But no one ever knows for sure how many qb interceptions through a season are based on poorly run routes, a missed read by a receiver, tipped balls due to poor execution by a lineman etc...

Anyway I have never heard of Ben missing any team meetings, practices, game walk-through's, or qb meetings. I've never heard of Ben ducking out the building after a loss and not addressing the press ( except when he was in concussion protocol and prohibited by league rules.) And when doing so I've never seen him not take a disproportinate share of the blame deserved or not. Yes occasionally he might reference a play or player where a play wasn't made or failed in a critical moment. But he's the guy getting asked the most questions. So if you want to make a farce of the whole process ( like Tomlin does with his virtual every press conference) and just have him stand there and spout endless cliches good for you. But him not addressing things there or in other forums ( his radio show for instance) isn't going to change much if anything at all with AB. Because as has been demonstrated numerous times the only time AB is happy is when he's putting up his numbers. I think Ryan Clark was spot on when he said AB is happier when he puts up numbers and the Steelers lose than when they win and his role is limited.


AB is wrong for his actions period. I never covered up that fact. There is frustration going on around the organization and it’s players and there is plenty of blame to go around.

As far as Ben goes, let’s not act if he is a choir boy or the saviour of this team. Do we need him? Yes, but we all know that there are things about Ben that we are not too proud of either.

As far as Ben leading the Steelers to 3 Superbowls, that is somewhat skewed. Ben entered the league coming to a team with stability and leadership. He had guys like Bettis, Hines, Faneca and Porter to show him the ropes. They were the leaders not Ben. Yes Ben was needed, but it was a collective effort as he was being lead by the veterans.

Also Ben got to those Superbowls playing behind top defensive units. Without that, there are no Superbowls because we were in close games more than not, and the offense wasn’t as explosive or talented as it is now. Even though this offense scores more than they did back then, Ben has not gotten them back to a Superbowl without a top ranked defense.

His untimely interceptions are as good a reason as anything else as to why we are out of the playoffs, and have not won a Superbowl since. So please, don’t try to sell the fact that Ben has carried this team on his back to 3 Superbowls because it is far from the case.

[zulater]

AB is wrong for his actions period. I never covered up that fact. There is frustration going on around the organization and it’s players and there is plenty of blame to go around.

As far as Ben goes, let’s not act if he is a choir boy or the saviour of this team. Do we need him? Yes, but we all know that there are things about Ben that we are not too proud of either.

As far as Ben leading the Steelers to 3 Superbowls, that is somewhat skewed. Ben entered the league coming to a team with stability and leadership. He had guys like Bettis, Hines, Faneca and Porter to show him the ropes. They were the leaders not Ben. Yes Ben was needed, but it was a collective effort as he was being lead by the veterans.

Also Ben got to those Superbowls playing behind top defensive units. Without that, there are no Superbowls because we were in close games more than not, and the offense wasn’t as explosive or talented as it is now. Even though this offense scores more than they did back then, Ben has not gotten them back to a Superbowl without a top ranked defense.

His untimely interceptions are as good a reason as anything else as to why we are out of the playoffs, and have not won a Superbowl since. So please, don’t try to sell the fact that Ben has carried this team on his back to 3 Superbowls because it is far from the case.

We had arguably more talent and better defenses from 92-97, and 01-02. How many Super Bowls did that net us? :coffee:

And there's no such thing as a timely interception that I know of. So I suppose anything less than perfect and Ben sucks.

I'm not saying he's Brady or Montana. But he's not the problem on this team. He's one of the main reasons that the Steelers are playing meaningful games all season every season. When was the last time that we missed the playoffs where we were eliminated from contention prior to the last game of the season? I'm going to guess 2006.

Lot of NFL cities would trade for our 'misery' these last 15 years.

[StillCurtains]

We had arguably more talent and better defenses from 92-97. How many Super Bowls did that net us? :coffee:

And there's no such thing as a timely interception that I know of. So I suppose anything less than perfect and Ben sucks.

I'm not saying he's Brady or Montana. But he's not the problem on this team. He's one of the main reasons that the Steelers are playing meaningful games all season every season. When was the last time that we missed the playoffs where we were eliminated from contention prior to the last game of the season? I'm going to guess 2006.

Lot of NFL cities would trade for our 'misery' there last 15 years.


I said they NEEDED him didn’t I? Don’t confuse NEEDING him with Ben being the SOLE reason they won those Superbowls because he wasn’t. The defense bailed Ben out more than he did them.

Many of the come from behind wins were due to Ben and the offense not producing enough points throughout the course of the game until the final drive. What more do you need when Troy, Harrison, Woodley and the defense is getting you turnovers, while holding opponents to 15-20ppg?

Yes, Ben bailed them out in Superbowl 43 on the last drive, but they probably don’t make it there without Troy’s pick 6 at the END of the AFCCG for a 23-14 win. That’s a measley 16 points by the QB that is carrying the team to Superbowls on his back. Please don’t get amnesia.

As I said, Ben is NEEDED but to feel that he carried the team to 3 Superbowls is laughable and it isn’t even close to that. It was a collective effort. Also to throw this in, even O’donnell got to the Superbowl with one of the defenses that you have mentioned which was in 1995.

The Defense has played a MAJOR role in all 8 of the Steelers Superbowl appearances and that is an ABSOLUTE FACT!

[zulater]

I said they NEEDED him didn’t I? Don’t confuse NEEDING him with Ben being the SOLE reason they won those Superbowls because he wasn’t. The defense bailed Ben out more than he did them.

Many of the come from behind wins were due to Ben and the offense not producing enough points throughout the course of the game until the final drive. What more do you need when Troy, Harrison, Woodley and the defense is getting you turnovers, while holding opponents to 15-20ppg?

Yes, Ben bailed them out in Superbowl 43 on the last drive, but they probably don’t make it there without Troy’s pick 6 at the END of the AFCCG for a 23-14 win. That’s a measley 16 points by the QB that is carrying the team to Superbowls on his back. Please don’t get amnesia.

As I said, Ben is NEEDED but to feel that he carried the team to 3 Superbowls is laughable and it isn’t even close to that. It was a collective effort. Also to throw this in, even O’donnell got to the Superbowl with one of the defenses that you have mentioned which was in 1995.

The Defense has played a MAJOR role in all 8 of the Steelers Superbowl appearances and that is an ABSOLUTE FACT!

I never claimed he carried them to the SB. Though his play in the AFC playoffs in 05 certainly was a driving force. But he got them over the top. That's what a good qb does with a good team. He makes the plays you need when you need them on a good team. People always claim he was lousy in SB 40.His stats were bad but he was far from lousy. At the end of the game when critical 3rd downs needed converted he made the plays necessary to close out the game. Even this year he did the job in most games. He drove the Steelers to what should have been game winning 4th quarter TD drives against the Chargers and Raiders. And then again what should have been a tying fg against the Raiders. Also the last time he touched the ball against the Chiefs he helped get the Steelers within 5 points with nearly 2 minutes on the clock. But of course in none of those games the defense could come up with a critical stop. Hell even the first Browns game lousy as he was, he put the Steelers in fg range, ( the coaching staff played unaggressive once they achieved the 30 yard line) for what could have been an OT win. Bottom line Ben quarterbacked this team well enough to get us into the playoffs over the course of this season. People blaming him for an incapable defense, crappy kicker and sulking receiver need to give it a break!

[vasteeler]

What zulater said. 100%

[EzraTank]

Ryan Clark is a douche too. He just isn't as out and open with it as some other people are. He isn't absent of any personal agenda.

People like to call AB 'selfish'. Every single person in the NFL is in it for themselves first and foremost, otherwise why bother doing it at all...it is just the degree of selfishness that it outwardly expressed that people are upset at AB for. Everyone wants to the ball every single play, just some come right out and say it and people don't like that.

They like people to be humble.

So some people act humble.

Yet, acting humble doesn't mean you are humble. You are an actor playing the part of 'humble person'.

We just don't like to tell the truth about what is really going on in this world.

Nonsense. Look at guys like Larry Fitzgerald. He's pretty comparable to AB with his career performance, but off the field, in the locker room and in life he's a solid citizen. I bet Larry Fitzgerald doesn't toss furniture out of apartment windows, keep $80K and guns laying around. AB is a douche, just admit it.


AB is wrong for his actions period. I never covered up that fact. There is frustration going on around the organization and it’s players and there is plenty of blame to go around.

As far as Ben goes, let’s not act if he is a choir boy or the saviour of this team. Do we need him? Yes, but we all know that there are things about Ben that we are not too proud of either.

As far as Ben leading the Steelers to 3 Superbowls, that is somewhat skewed. Ben entered the league coming to a team with stability and leadership. He had guys like Bettis, Hines, Faneca and Porter to show him the ropes. They were the leaders not Ben. Yes Ben was needed, but it was a collective effort as he was being lead by the veterans.

Also Ben got to those Superbowls playing behind top defensive units. Without that, there are no Superbowls because we were in close games more than not, and the offense wasn’t as explosive or talented as it is now. Even though this offense scores more than they did back then, Ben has not gotten them back to a Superbowl without a top ranked defense.

His untimely interceptions are as good a reason as anything else as to why we are out of the playoffs, and have not won a Superbowl since. So please, don’t try to sell the fact that Ben has carried this team on his back to 3 Superbowls because it is far from the case.

While I agree with some of this let's face it, we had great teams for years before Ben but NEVER could win because of garbage like Neil O'Donnell and Kordell Stewart under center. Is Ben an angel, absolutely not. Does he say stupid shit, yep but there's no way we win in 2005/08 without him regardless of how great our defenses were.

[Shoes]

Ben is an turd also, he’s just a more polished turd. :chuckle:

[lipps83]

Nonsense. Look at guys like Larry Fitzgerald. He's pretty comparable to AB with his career performance, but off the field, in the locker room and in life he's a solid citizen. I bet Larry Fitzgerald doesn't toss furniture out of apartment windows, keep $80K and guns laying around. AB is a douche, just admit it.

Everybody is different though and you have to allow for that and stop expecting all people to be the same. Being humble and pretending to be humble aren't the same thing. I never said truly humble people don't exist. I said that some people who appear to be humble are actually actors.

[EzraTank]

Everybody is different though and you have to allow for that and stop expecting all people to be the same. Being humble and pretending to be humble aren't the same thing. I never said truly humble people don't exist. I said that some people who appear to be humble are actually actors.

I agree. And I know a lot of these NFL guys come from shitty upbringing poor conditions and have never been taught how to live in society.

I swear I should start a consulting firm that transitions these guys into living with millions overnight.

[pczach]

I never claimed he carried them to the SB. Though his play in the AFC playoffs in 05 certainly was a driving force. But he got them over the top. That's what a good qb does with a good team. He makes the plays you need when you need them on a good team. People always claim he was lousy in SB 40.His stats were bad but he was far from lousy. At the end of the game when critical 3rd downs needed converted he made the plays necessary to close out the game. Even this year he did the job in most games. He drove the Steelers to what should have been game winning 4th quarter TD drives against the Chargers and Raiders. And then again what should have been a tying fg against the Raiders. Also the last time he touched the ball against the Chiefs he helped get the Steelers within 5 points with nearly 2 minutes on the clock. But of course in none of those games the defense could come up with a critical stop. Hell even the first Browns game lousy as he was, he put the Steelers in fg range, ( the coaching staff played unaggressive once they achieved the 30 yard line) for what could have been an OT win. Bottom line Ben quarterbacked this team well enough to get us into the playoffs over the course of this season. People blaming him for an incapable defense, crappy kicker and sulking receiver need to give it a break!



It is difficult for a quarterback to truly carry a team. In far too many games, there was no running game. In far too many games, the defense only needed to make one stop over the course of a second half or quarter and couldn't get it done. He did make a lot of mistakes, but it is difficult to try to make every play. Ben was forced to carry the team in waaaay too many games.

Bell not being there for RB depth really hurt the offense and running game in general.

Game planning could have been better against certain opponents. They could have tried to run the ball more.

The kicker was awful and cost them games.

Special teams always had them facing long fields with inferior punting, the kick return team always had them starting backed up to their own end zone. Nothing new here....it is just how it has always been for recent history.

The defense almost literally never came through in key situations, and they don't create turnovers to give the offense short fields.

Aaron Rodgers and the Packers went 6-9-1. He didn't forget how to play quarterback. He threw 25 TDs and 2 INTs. He chose not to force the ball or to try to take chances and make plays. He took what was there. Congratulations to everyone that sings the praises of Aaron Rodgers. He wasn't willing to take the risks to try to make things happen. Sometimes just taking what is there leads to 6-9-1...….but hey......at least he didn't have many interceptions...…..and he got his coach fired.

The quarterback gets much of the blame when the team doesn't win. Aaron Rodgers is still great, but taking care of the ball doesn't always lead to wins. It's a very fine line.

This doesn't exonerate Ben from throwing 16 interceptions. He needs to do better than that. What I am saying is that the detractors of Ben always point to interceptions as to why he isn't as good as quarterbacks they believe are the best. They never point out the plays he does make that NONE of the other quarterbacks make by buying time and fitting the ball into tight windows. Yes he takes chances and sometimes he just makes mistakes, but many times those chances turn into plays no other quarterback makes....especially in big moments at the end of games. He hasn't helped win as many games as he has by accident. He plays the game differently than other quarterbacks....he always has. His way has always been a path to victory.

Here's hoping he has more left in the tank for a few more runs. His way still wins but he needs to tweak his decision-making and the team needs to figure some things out.

[zulater]

It is difficult for a quarterback to truly carry a team. In far too many games, there was no running game. In far too many games, the defense only needed to make one stop over the course of a second half or quarter and couldn't get it done. He did make a lot of mistakes, but it is difficult to try to make every play. Ben was forced to carry the team in waaaay too many games.

Bell not being there for RB depth really hurt the offense and running game in general.

Game planning could have been better against certain opponents. They could have tried to run the ball more.

The kicker was awful and cost them games.

Special teams always had them facing long fields with inferior punting, the kick return team always had them starting backed up to their own end zone. Nothing new here....it is just how it has always been for recent history.

The defense almost literally never came through in key situations, and they don't create turnovers to give the offense short fields.

Aaron Rodgers and the Packers went 6-9-1. He didn't forget how to play quarterback. He threw 25 TDs and 2 INTs. He chose not to force the ball or to try to take chances and make plays. He took what was there. Congratulations to everyone that sings the praises of Aaron Rodgers. He wasn't willing to take the risks to try to make things happen. Sometimes just taking what is there leads to 6-9-1...….but hey......at least he didn't have many interceptions...…..and he got his coach fired.

The quarterback gets much of the blame when the team doesn't win. Aaron Rodgers is still great, but taking care of the ball doesn't always lead to wins. It's a very fine line.

This doesn't exonerate Ben from throwing 16 interceptions. He needs to do better than that. What I am saying is that the detractors of Ben always point to interceptions as to why he isn't as good as quarterbacks they believe are the best. They never point out the plays he does make that NONE of the other quarterbacks make by buying time and fitting the ball into tight windows. Yes he takes chances and sometimes he just makes mistakes, but many times those chances turn into plays no other quarterback makes....especially in big moments at the end of games. He hasn't helped win as many games as he has by accident. He plays the game differently than other quarterbacks....he always has. His way has always been a path to victory.

Here's hoping he has more left in the tank for a few more runs. His way still wins but he needs to tweak his decision-making and the team needs to figure some things out.

Excellent post!

[lipps83]

I agree. And I know a lot of these NFL guys come from shitty upbringing poor conditions and have never been taught how to live in society.

I swear I should start a consulting firm that transitions these guys into living with millions overnight.

Something like that is really needed.

Aaron Hernandez is a perfect example. What everyone saw was this asshole gangbanger. Killed a couple people. Scum and everyone was happy when he killed himself.

Under the surface was a scared little kid that was repeatedly and brutally beat by his dad. That is why he was the way that he was.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6275079/Aaron-Hernandezs-dad-regularly-beat-older-brother.html

Nobody tells that story though because it changes the social view of who we think Aaron Hernandez was. If anything, we don't want to be wrong about making a wrong turn, let alone how we characterized someone. Then he can no longer be a villain. His childhood is what made him what he was and what we saw. Nobody really knew about that though because he didn't talk about it. He was a tough guy football player on the outside but on the inside he was broken and beaten.

Animals that are hurt attack as a defensive way to protect themselves. People do the same thing.

We are a society much more interested in kicking people when they are down instead of healing the issues which cause these types of behaviors. Kicking them when they are down is much easier than trying to lift a person back up and help them to pick up the pieces. It makes you look more cool too.

[zulater]

Something like that is really needed.

Aaron Hernandez is a perfect example. What everyone saw was this asshole gangbanger. Killed a couple people. Scum and everyone was happy when he killed himself.

Under the surface was a scared little kid that was repeatedly and brutally beat by his dad. That is why he was the way that he was.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6275079/Aaron-Hernandezs-dad-regularly-beat-older-brother.html

Nobody tells that story though because it changes the social view of who we think Aaron Hernandez was. If anything, we don't want to be wrong about making a wrong turn, let alone how we characterized someone. Then he can no longer be a villain. His childhood is what made him what he was and what we saw. Nobody really knew about that though because he didn't talk about it. He was a tough guy football player on the outside but on the inside he was broken and beaten.

Animals that are hurt attack as a defensive way to protect themselves. People do the same thing.

We are a society much more interested in kicking people when they are down instead of healing the issues which cause these types of behaviors. Kicking them when they are down is much easier than trying to lift a person back up and help them to pick up the pieces. It makes you look more cool too.

There's a lot of people that were and are abused that don't turn into murderous thugs. Hernandez killed someone merely for having a disagreement with them in a nightclub. He murdered a friend because he felt he wasn't properly respected. That's a sociopath plain and simple.

[lipps83]

There's a lot of people that were and are abused that don't turn into murderous thugs. Hernandez killed someone merely for having a disagreement with them in a nightclub. He murdered a friend because he felt he wasn't properly respected. That's a sociopath plain and simple.

You are trying to generalize. Yes, everyone is different and responds differently to trauma. Everyone is also different in how they heal from the trauma. You can't just tell them to 'get over it' if they are responding in a way that is detrimental to others. Some people literally can't because they don't know how.

It's not up to you to decide what did or did not hurt someone and how they respond to it.

What is up to you is taking the time to try to understand them. If you actually understand what they are dealing with you can help them to heal. Very few people take that time.

'Brotherly love' has been replaced with 'every man for himself'.

[zulater]

You are trying to generalize. Yes, everyone is different and responds differently to trauma. Everyone is also different in how they heal from the trauma. You can't just tell them to 'get over it' if they are responding in a way that is detrimental to others. Some people literally can't because they don't know how.

It's not up to you to decide what did or did not hurt someone and how they respond to it.

What is up to you is taking the time to try to understand them. If you actually understand what they are dealing with you can help them to heal. Very few people take that time.

'Brotherly love' has been replaced with 'every man for himself'.

Sociopaths are born without a conscience. They are literally beyond help.

[StillCurtains]

I never claimed he carried them to the SB. Though his play in the AFC playoffs in 05 certainly was a driving force. But he got them over the top. That's what a good qb does with a good team. He makes the plays you need when you need them on a good team. People always claim he was lousy in SB 40.His stats were bad but he was far from lousy. At the end of the game when critical 3rd downs needed converted he made the plays necessary to close out the game. Even this year he did the job in most games. He drove the Steelers to what should have been game winning 4th quarter TD drives against the Chargers and Raiders. And then again what should have been a tying fg against the Raiders. Also the last time he touched the ball against the Chiefs he helped get the Steelers within 5 points with nearly 2 minutes on the clock. But of course in none of those games the defense could come up with a critical stop. Hell even the first Browns game lousy as he was, he put the Steelers in fg range, ( the coaching staff played unaggressive once they achieved the 30 yard line) for what could have been an OT win. Bottom line Ben quarterbacked this team well enough to get us into the playoffs over the course of this season. People blaming him for an incapable defense, crappy kicker and sulking receiver need to give it a break!

I’ll give you the Raiders game because he barely played in that one, but the Browns, Chargers and Chiefs? No, I can’t give you that. He had them in position to win, yes. However Ben’s picks were a HUGE reason they lost them.

He had 4 picks vs Cleveland in a tie. It is highly likely that we win if he even throws just ONE LESS pick. He throws a pick vs the Chargers in the Redzone. We lost by 3. If he doesn’t throw that pick we win.

He turned it over against the Chiefs. We lost by 5. If he doesn’t turn it over we win. He threw 2 picks (one in the endzone) vs the Broncos. We lost by 7. If he doesn’t throw 2 picks we win.
He even had 3 picks against the Jags. If he didn’t have those picks we wouldn’t have had to scratch and claw to win.

Ben’s picks have taken far too many points off of the board this season. On top of that you are giving teams extra possessions which is too much for our vulnerable defense to overcome. What is bad about it is his picks are more of the “What the heck was that?” variety. His picks don’t even seem to be understandable.

He knows we don’t have a solid enough D, but yet continues to be careless with the football. Yes, I feel Ben is a HOF QB. He is very talented and has an extreme drive to win. We can’t win without him, but at the same time we can’t seem to win with him.

It’s like he has a brain freeze at times the way he puts the ball in harms way. When you give teams picks in the redzone, points are taken away and the game turns into dog fights when it shouldn’t be.
There is a reason that some players and analysts feel he is not a HOFer.

Like I said, I feel that he is, but what many others feel about his HOF status is by his own doing. He can’t get out of his own way.

Unfortunately this season, Ben is part of the reason we are not in the playoffs. Like it or not.

[zulater]

I’ll give you the Raiders game because he barely played in that one, but the Browns, Chargers and Chiefs? No, I can’t give you that. He had them in position to win, yes. However Ben’s picks were a HUGE reason they lost them.

He had 4 picks vs Cleveland in a tie. It is highly likely that we win if he even throws just ONE LESS pick. He throws a pick vs the Chargers in the Redzone. We lost by 3. If he doesn’t throw that pick we win.

He turned it over against the Chiefs. We lost by 5. If he doesn’t turn it over we win. He threw 2 picks (one in the endzone) vs the Broncos. We lost by 7. If he doesn’t throw 2 picks we win.
He even had 3 picks against the Jags. If he didn’t have those picks we wouldn’t have had to scratch and claw to win.

Ben’s picks have taken far too many points off of the board this season. On top of that you are giving teams extra possessions which is too much for our vulnerable defense to overcome. What is bad about it is his picks are more of the “What the heck was that?” variety. His picks don’t even seem to be understandable.

He knows we don’t have a solid enough D, but yet continues to be careless with the football. Yes, I feel Ben is a HOF QB. He is very talented and has an extreme drive to win. We can’t win without him, but at the same time we can’t seem to win with him.

It’s like he has a brain freeze at times the way he puts the ball in harms way. When you give teams picks and the redzone, points are taken away and the game turns into dog fights when it shouldn’t be.
There is a reason that some players and analysts feel he is not a HOFer.

Like I said, I feel that he is, but what many others feel about his HOF status is by his own doing. He can’t get out of his own way.

The only good game is a turnover free game? Sorry. Not buying. Terry Bradshaw won a SB MVP throwing 3 interceptions (as opposed to 2 TD passes) I get the game has changed. But still. No risk no reward offenses aren't getting you anyone either. I laughed all this summer as one analyst after another talked about how improved the Browns would be with Tyrod Taylor because he protected the ball so well. Yeah well that's because he never throws in a tight window. If a guys not 5 yards open before he releases the ball the pass ain't going there. Getting back to Ben. Again his 2.4% interception rate isn't extremely bad. Barely below league average. "But it's when he throws them". Really? Tell me when the right time to throw one is? (outside a Hail Mary) Well he cost us scoring chances. So it would have been better if he got picked inside our own 20? I do get being bothered by the red zone picks. Those went up this year. But I blame Fitchner a lot for that. Why you going empty back set on goal to go situations when the clock isn't a pressing concern? You're already on a short field and the db's have less ground to cover. Now you're telling the inside lb's and the safety's they can cheat too and not be bothered defending the possibility of a run. Conner was very good getting touchdowns inside the 10 early in the season. Then they went away from it? If that was partly on Ben, Tomlin should have intervened and demanded the playcalling be less slanted.. Anyway a lot of things went wrong against the Chargers.But Ben was hardly a part of that. I put Ben in the category of what had us in that game in position to win. Hell even the Broncos game if Grimble doesn't fumble away a TD and or Washington doesn't leap a likely Td to an incompletion that game goes in the W column and the end of game int never happens.

I'll give you this. Tomlin's overall lack of discipline is evident in Ben's and the offenses play. If Fichtner wont reign him in then Tomlin needs to. We need to run more and pass less next season. We don't need to go back to the 70's. Just 5-10 more runs a game would be perfect.

[StillCurtains]

The only good game is a turnover free game? Sorry. Not buying. Terry Bradshaw won a SB MVP throwing 3 interceptions (as opposed to 2 TD passes) I get the game has changed. But still. No risk no reward offenses aren't getting you anyone either. I laughed all this summer as one analyst after another talked about how improved the Browns would be with Tyrod Taylor because he protected the ball so well. Yeah well that's because he never throws in a tight window. If a guys not 5 yards open before he releases the ball the pass ain't going there. Getting back to Ben. Again his 2.4% interception rate isn't extremely bad. Barely below league average. "But it's when he throws them". Really? Tell me when the right time to throw one is? (outside a Hail Mary) Well he cost us scoring chances. So it would have been better if he got picked inside our own 20? I do get being bothered by the red zone picks. Those went up this year. But I blame Fitchner a lot for that. Why you going empty back set on goal to go situations when the clock isn't a pressing concern? You're already on a short field and the db's have less ground to cover. Now you're telling the inside lb's and the safety's they can cheat too and not be bothered defending the possibility of a run. Conner was very good getting touchdowns inside the 10 early in the season. Then they went away from it? If that was partly on Ben, Tomlin should have intervened and demanded the playcalling be less slanted.. Anyway a lot of things went wrong against the Chargers.But Ben was hardly a part of that. I put Ben in the category of what had us in that game in position to win. Hell even the Broncos game if Grimble doesn't fumble away a TD and or Washington doesn't leap a likely Td to an incompletion that game goes in the W column and the end of game int never happens.

I'll give you this. Tomlin's overall lack of discipline is evident in Ben's and the offenses play. If Fichtner wont reign him in then Tomlin needs to. We need to run more and pass less next season. We don't need to go back to the 70's. Just 5-10 more runs a game would be perfect.

I didn’t say Ben should always be turnover free. It would help if he was, but that’s not what I am saying. The truth is that Ben is supposed to be the leader of the team. You lead by example. Constantly turning it over doesn’t show a good example to the rest of the team how to win if you are a leader.

If you don’t think his turnover rate was that bad this season, leading the league in interceptions should be your barometer. That is NEVER good. Again, I’m not saying he has to be impossibly turnover free, but as a leader, you have to know the nature of the game you are playing in.

Ben didn’t do his job in regards to the nature of the games we were playing in this season. They were TIGHTLY contested. That means you should KNOW that you CAN’T turn it over, especially as the leader. As I stated, if Ben has even ONE less turnover in those games, we win them, despite what the rest of the team did. We lost CLOSE games. 1 less turnover by Ben is a win! That is a given. That is the IN GAME knowledge that Ben has to have in THOSE tightly contested games as the leader. He has to be the STANDARD for the team.

Instead, he was sloppy and careless MULTIPLE times in MULTIPLE games in which he knew the game could have gone either way. That is unacceptable.

In terms of the playcalling, part of the running game issues were due to Conner’s injury. Also believe it or not, alot of the empty back sets, 5 wide sets and etc is what Ben WANTED to run. Ben wanted more control of the offense and that is why Haley was canned. This is the result. As I said, Ben is partially the reason we are sitting at home this season.

[NCSteeler]

It is difficult for a quarterback to truly carry a team. In far too many games, there was no running game. In far too many games, the defense only needed to make one stop over the course of a second half or quarter and couldn't get it done. He did make a lot of mistakes, but it is difficult to try to make every play. Ben was forced to carry the team in waaaay too many games.

Bell not being there for RB depth really hurt the offense and running game in general.

Game planning could have been better against certain opponents. They could have tried to run the ball more.

The kicker was awful and cost them games.

Special teams always had them facing long fields with inferior punting, the kick return team always had them starting backed up to their own end zone. Nothing new here....it is just how it has always been for recent history.

The defense almost literally never came through in key situations, and they don't create turnovers to give the offense short fields.

Aaron Rodgers and the Packers went 6-9-1. He didn't forget how to play quarterback. He threw 25 TDs and 2 INTs. He chose not to force the ball or to try to take chances and make plays. He took what was there. Congratulations to everyone that sings the praises of Aaron Rodgers. He wasn't willing to take the risks to try to make things happen. Sometimes just taking what is there leads to 6-9-1...….but hey......at least he didn't have many interceptions...…..and he got his coach fired.

The quarterback gets much of the blame when the team doesn't win. Aaron Rodgers is still great, but taking care of the ball doesn't always lead to wins. It's a very fine line.

This doesn't exonerate Ben from throwing 16 interceptions. He needs to do better than that. What I am saying is that the detractors of Ben always point to interceptions as to why he isn't as good as quarterbacks they believe are the best. They never point out the plays he does make that NONE of the other quarterbacks make by buying time and fitting the ball into tight windows. Yes he takes chances and sometimes he just makes mistakes, but many times those chances turn into plays no other quarterback makes....especially in big moments at the end of games. He hasn't helped win as many games as he has by accident. He plays the game differently than other quarterbacks....he always has. His way has always been a path to victory.

Here's hoping he has more left in the tank for a few more runs. His way still wins but he needs to tweak his decision-making and the team needs to figure some things out.A very nice post

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

[AtlantaDan]

I'll give you this. Tomlin's overall lack of discipline is evident in Ben's and the offenses play. If Fichtner wont reign him in then Tomlin needs to. We need to run more and pass less next season. We don't need to go back to the 70's. Just 5-10 more runs a game would be perfect.

According to Jason LaCanfora someone apparently agrees that the coaching staff needs be less deferential to the gunslinger

The relationship between Tomlin and first-time offensive coordinator Randy Fichtner – and that of Roethlisberger and Fichtner – have been under scrutiny within that organization for months, with many believing it may be too close on both parts.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/antonio-brown-trade-possible-ben-roethlisberger-extension-talks-likely-amid-steelers-turmoil/

Of course "many" believing it may be too close could be the front office receptionist and someone on the practice squad rather than AJRII and Colbert



(https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/antonio-brown-trade-possible-ben-roethlisberger-extension-talks-likely-amid-steelers-turmoil/)

[86WARD]

According to Jason LaCanfora someone apparently agrees that the coaching staff needs be less deferential to the gunslinger

The relationship between Tomlin and first-time offensive coordinator Randy Fichtner – and that of Roethlisberger and Fichtner – have been under scrutiny within that organization for months, with many believing it may be too close on both parts.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/antonio-brown-trade-possible-ben-roethlisberger-extension-talks-likely-amid-steelers-turmoil/

Of course "many" believing it may be too close could be the front office receptionist and someone on the practice squad rather than AJRII and Colbert



(https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/antonio-brown-trade-possible-ben-roethlisberger-extension-talks-likely-amid-steelers-turmoil/)

That’s a problem with Tomlin then as a head coach, you can’t take sides with out consequences...

[StillCurtains]

It is difficult for a quarterback to truly carry a team. In far too many games, there was no running game. In far too many games, the defense only needed to make one stop over the course of a second half or quarter and couldn't get it done. He did make a lot of mistakes, but it is difficult to try to make every play. Ben was forced to carry the team in waaaay too many games.

Bell not being there for RB depth really hurt the offense and running game in general.

Game planning could have been better against certain opponents. They could have tried to run the ball more.

The kicker was awful and cost them games.

Special teams always had them facing long fields with inferior punting, the kick return team always had them starting backed up to their own end zone. Nothing new here....it is just how it has always been for recent history.

The defense almost literally never came through in key situations, and they don't create turnovers to give the offense short fields.

Aaron Rodgers and the Packers went 6-9-1. He didn't forget how to play quarterback. He threw 25 TDs and 2 INTs. He chose not to force the ball or to try to take chances and make plays. He took what was there. Congratulations to everyone that sings the praises of Aaron Rodgers. He wasn't willing to take the risks to try to make things happen. Sometimes just taking what is there leads to 6-9-1...….but hey......at least he didn't have many interceptions...…..and he got his coach fired.

The quarterback gets much of the blame when the team doesn't win. Aaron Rodgers is still great, but taking care of the ball doesn't always lead to wins. It's a very fine line.

This doesn't exonerate Ben from throwing 16 interceptions. He needs to do better than that. What I am saying is that the detractors of Ben always point to interceptions as to why he isn't as good as quarterbacks they believe are the best. They never point out the plays he does make that NONE of the other quarterbacks make by buying time and fitting the ball into tight windows. Yes he takes chances and sometimes he just makes mistakes, but many times those chances turn into plays no other quarterback makes....especially in big moments at the end of games. He hasn't helped win as many games as he has by accident. He plays the game differently than other quarterbacks....he always has. His way has always been a path to victory.

Here's hoping he has more left in the tank for a few more runs. His way still wins but he needs to tweak his decision-making and the team needs to figure some things out.

In regard to Rodgers, did it occur to you that they probably don’t win 6 games if Rodgers turns over the ball more? Did it occur to you that the Packers are not a very good team? Their defense is average at best. They have no running game. His only true viable weapon is Adams. Cobb and Graham are both a shell of their former selves.

Rodgers throwing 25 TD’s and 2 Int’s gives them every chance to win. The fact is that they are not very good. Can you imagine giving Rodgers AB and JuJu? You’re probably talking about Rodgers throwing AT LEAST 45 TD’s! Turnover ratio is VERY important in terms of winning in the NFL.

Our QB led the league in interceptions. That is very significant. If you were told a QB led the league in picks, you would have doubt of their playoff chances. It’s no coincidence that our QB leads the league in picks and we are out of the playoffs. That is how this game works. If that is the product of your play on the field, then it will suffer in the win column.

Ben is our QB. I Love the guy. He helped us win Superbowls for the first time since our 70’s team. However I can’t ignore the facts. Most particularly this season, Ben played a role, as well as others in being out of the playoffs. It sucks to say it but it’s true.

League leading 16 Int’s = home for the playoffs.
That stat doesn’t equal the franchise’s 7th Superbowl win.

Noone will ever have a chance at a Superbowl with such a stat and Ben really needs to clean that up.

[zulater]

In regard to Rodgers, did it occur to you that they probably don’t win 6 games if Rodgers turns over the ball more? Did it occur to you that the Packers are not a very good team? Their defense is average at best. They have no running game. His only true viable weapon is Adams. Cobb and Graham are both a shell of their former selves.

Rodgers throwing 25 TD’s and 2 Int’s gives them every chance to win. The fact is that they are not very good. Can you imagine giving Rodgers AB and JuJu? You’re probably talking about Rodgers throwing AT LEAST 45 TD’s! Turnover ratio is VERY important in terms of winning in the NFL.

Our QB led the league in interceptions. That is very significant. If you were told a QB led the league in picks, you would have doubt of their playoff chances. It’s no coincidence that our QB leads the league in picks and we are out of the playoffs. That is how this game works. If that is the product of your play on the field, then it will suffer in the win column.

Ben is our QB. I Love the guy. He helped us win Superbowls for the first time since our 70’s team. However I can’t ignore the facts. Most particularly this season, Ben played a role, as well as others in being out of the playoffs. It sucks to say it but it’s true.

League leading 16 Int’s = home for the playoffs.
That stat doesn’t equal the franchise’s 7th Superbowl win.

Noone will ever have a chance at a Superbowl with such a stat and Ben really needs to clean that up.


About that last line. As recently as 2015 Peyton Manning was second in the NFL with 17 interceptions. Of course he missed 6 games so it could have been higher. None the less his SB Champion Broncos led the league as a team with 23 int combined between he and Brock Osweiler. That was 2015, not 1979. Of course in 79 Bradshaw and the Steelers were worst in the league in turnover differential but somehow they managed to eek out a SB win. And while it didn't lead the league, Eli threw 16 int in 2011 in leading the Giants to a SB winning season.

[zulater]

The whole Ben led the league in interception narrative needs a little context. The Steelers as a team had 17 interceptions. Far from the league worst, this despite leading the league in pass att.(Tampa was worst with 26, 5 other teams had more than the Steelers with Cle tied with us) The league median was 12. We led the NFL with 689 pass att. the league median was 566. That puts the Steelers at 123 more att than avg. Give the average team in the league the same number of pass att at the league team avg of 2.3 int % ( as opposed to the Steelers 2.4 and that puts the league median at 15. Wow we threw a whole 2 more than what should be expected!!! Can't win like that! Go tell it to the Colts and Chargers both playing this week. We're not even out of the ballpark with teams like the Patriots and Eagles when pass att are factored in.

Yes this is an area we can use improvement on! But the way it's portrayed is Ben is some crazy ass gunslinger lapping the field in interceptions! His int rate is closer to the middle than the top! Fact!!! It's not as bad as you want to believe. Interceptions happen. Even to good teams and players.

[FrancoLambert]

Something like that is really needed.

Aaron Hernandez is a perfect example. What everyone saw was this asshole gangbanger. Killed a couple people. Scum and everyone was happy when he killed himself.

Under the surface was a scared little kid that was repeatedly and brutally beat by his dad. That is why he was the way that he was.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6275079/Aaron-Hernandezs-dad-regularly-beat-older-brother.html

Nobody tells that story though because it changes the social view of who we think Aaron Hernandez was. If anything, we don't want to be wrong about making a wrong turn, let alone how we characterized someone. Then he can no longer be a villain. His childhood is what made him what he was and what we saw. Nobody really knew about that though because he didn't talk about it. He was a tough guy football player on the outside but on the inside he was broken and beaten.

Animals that are hurt attack as a defensive way to protect themselves. People do the same thing.

We are a society much more interested in kicking people when they are down instead of healing the issues which cause these types of behaviors. Kicking them when they are down is much easier than trying to lift a person back up and help them to pick up the pieces. It makes you look more cool too.

Please spare us the Sociology 101 lectures.

Sure, Aaron Hernandez had a very tough upbringing. Guess what, many others have too.
Not all who survive a tough childhood make the choice to live a life of crime.

Stop with the excuses for his murderous behavior. Oh, that’s right, they’re reasons.

He was fortunate enough to be able to make a break from his past and guess what, he CHOSE not to.

[StillCurtains]

Very good, buuuut! What did those teams have? Dominant defenses which our team does not.
Peyton was trying to play through his last season in which to his surprise, he fell completely off of a cliff rather suddenly. After being brought back off the bench, he realized he didn’t have it anymore. He also realized that he had a dominant defense and all he has to do is not turn it over.

I don’t even have to make mention of the HOF Roster of the 70’s Steelers defense. When it comes to the Giants I recall a very dominant front 4.

Peyton knew the makeup of the 2015 team and adjusted his game to win the Superbowl.
Ben should realize the same with his team, meaning that he knows that the defense is weak which leaves us no room for error. Stop turning it over!

[pczach]

In regard to Rodgers, did it occur to you that they probably don’t win 6 games if Rodgers turns over the ball more? Did it occur to you that the Packers are not a very good team? Their defense is average at best. They have no running game. His only true viable weapon is Adams. Cobb and Graham are both a shell of their former selves.

Rodgers throwing 25 TD’s and 2 Int’s gives them every chance to win. The fact is that they are not very good. Can you imagine giving Rodgers AB and JuJu? You’re probably talking about Rodgers throwing AT LEAST 45 TD’s! Turnover ratio is VERY important in terms of winning in the NFL.

Our QB led the league in interceptions. That is very significant. If you were told a QB led the league in picks, you would have doubt of their playoff chances. It’s no coincidence that our QB leads the league in picks and we are out of the playoffs. That is how this game works. If that is the product of your play on the field, then it will suffer in the win column.

Ben is our QB. I Love the guy. He helped us win Superbowls for the first time since our 70’s team. However I can’t ignore the facts. Most particularly this season, Ben played a role, as well as others in being out of the playoffs. It sucks to say it but it’s true.

League leading 16 Int’s = home for the playoffs.
That stat doesn’t equal the franchise’s 7th Superbowl win.

Noone will ever have a chance at a Superbowl with such a stat and Ben really needs to clean that up.

I explained everything in my post you quoted if you read it. I didn't let Ben off the hook for his interceptions.

I also said Rodgers is still a great quarterback, but he played it safe this year....period. he only had 25 touchdowns on the season. You're not squeezing a lot of passes into right windows with those numbers. Alex Smith never throws interceptions and has been and always will be 10 times the QB he is. Looking at pure numbers doesn't tell the whole story. Did you watch Rodgers play a lot this year? If you did, you would see what I'm talking about. He got some criticism for his play from fans and media. He spent more time bitching about his offense and trashing his coach. You'd be crushing Ben if he did that, but you go off defending Rodgers.

What great running game did Ben have? He didn't have the starting RB all year.

Rodgers didn't seem to play with the same fire this year, and if you're losing a game and need scores to come from behind, YOU SHOULD BE FORCING THROWS AND TAKING RISKS. To think otherwise is ignoring a fact to try to prove your point. It's called playing not to win and protecting your stat sheet.

[StillCurtains]

I explained everything in my post you quoted if you read it. I didn't let Ben off the hook for his interceptions.

I also said Rodgers is still a great quarterback, but he played it safe this year....period. he only had 25 touchdowns on the season. You're not squeezing a lot of passes into right windows with those numbers. Alex Smith never throws interceptions and has been and always will be 10 times the QB he is. Looking at pure numbers doesn't tell the whole story. Did you watch Rodgers play a lot this year? If you did, you would see what I'm talking about. He got some criticism for his play from fans and media. He spent more time bitching about his offense and trashing his coach. You'd be crushing Ben if he did that, but you go off defending Rodgers.

What great running game did Ben have? He didn't have the starting RB all year.

Rodgers didn't seem to play with the same fire this year, and if you're losing a game and need scores to come from behind, YOU SHOULD BE FORCING THROWS AND TAKING RISKS. To think otherwise is ignoring a fact to try to prove your point. It's called playing not to win and protecting your stat sheet.

With Ben, why are you forcing throws when we have a lead? The fact is that the Steelers have Acually LEAD in most of these close games and yet he was forcing the ball.

If he would have actually protected the ball and added on to those leads with points instead of picks we wouldn’t be having this conversation. The added points instead of turnovers could have made up the difference in wins even if the defense gave up another score. Also this has ALWAYS been what Ben is.

Use the redzone pick in Superbowl 40 as an example. It was a lazy boeheaded type throw. He makes these types of throws for interceptions to this day, while also showing a lack of regard to the coverage he is throwing in. That throw was also with a 14-3 lead with the Seahawks on their heals.

Instead of being careful with it in the redzone and putting them away witha 21-3 lead, it’s picked and returned inside our 10 yard line and turned to a 14-10 dogfight. Luckily the D was good enough to hold on. These are the same situations that we have been in this year.

All of it is not on the defense either. The Cleveland tie resulted from 4 picks from Ben as well as 1 fumble lost. If it were not for the defense we’re not in it. 5 turnovers from your QB and the D was still able to force a tie?

The defense wasn’t great, but they did enough to win in Denver also. Ben wasn’t the only contributer with the Grimble fumble and the Conner fumble, but he contributed with 2 picks in the game. The offense had a total of 5 turnovers in that game. The D kept them in enough to only be down by 7. Ben throws the pick in the end.

The D kept them in the Jaguars game with Ben’s 3 picks and a fumble. That win was more on the D than Ben. The D had their moments.

Also with Rodgers he has always been what he is also. Even with better teams he NEVER had a high interception rate. He isn’t doing anything different now than he did then and that’s giving his team a chance by scoring points and not turning it over.

[Craic]

I don't know. Does anyone think there might be something personal between Clark and Brown. After all, they would have faced each other many, many times in practice.

[Steeler-in-west]

The team is not a complete mess. They are a talented team. They just need a competent coaching staff, top to bottom, to put it all together. The big majority of these players are not saints, many don’t even act like adults, that’s why you need no nonsense competent coaching. A complete coaching change is the only way this team will be set right. We can replace AB and Ben with OB jr and Patrick Mahomes and the same things will keep happening with this coaching staff.

[cubanstogie]

Rodgers can’t win, if he doesn’t throw picks he’s not forcing ball down field trying to win games. Yet if he did lead league in picks like Ben the he’d be ridiculed for throwing pics. lMAO, you can’t make this shit up. The guy plays injured all the time. A few years ago in playoffs he could barely walk. You can’t possibly question his desire to win.

[pczach]

With Ben, why are you forcing throws when we have a lead? The fact is that the Steelers have Acually LEAD in most of these close games and yet he was forcing the ball.

If he would have actually protected the ball and added on to those leads with points instead of picks we wouldn’t be having this conversation. The added points instead of turnovers could have made up the difference in wins even if the defense gave up another score. Also this has ALWAYS been what Ben is.

Use the redzone pick in Superbowl 40 as an example. It was a lazy boeheaded type throw. He makes these types of throws for interceptions to this day, while also showing a lack of regard to the coverage he is throwing in. That throw was also with a 14-3 lead with the Seahawks on their heals.

Instead of being careful with it in the redzone and putting them away witha 21-3 lead, it’s picked and returned inside our 10 yard line and turned to a 14-10 dogfight. Luckily the D was good enough to hold on. These are the same situations that we have been in this year.

All of it is not on the defense either. The Cleveland tie resulted from 4 picks from Ben as well as 1 fumble lost. If it were not for the defense we’re not in it. 5 turnovers from your QB and the D was still able to force a tie?

The defense wasn’t great, but they did enough to win in Denver also. Ben wasn’t the only contributer with the Grimble fumble and the Conner fumble, but he contributed with 2 picks in the game. The offense had a total of 5 turnovers in that game. The D kept them in enough to only be down by 7. Ben throws the pick in the end.

The D kept them in the Jaguars game with Ben’s 3 picks and a fumble. That win was more on the D than Ben. The D had their moments.

Also with Rodgers he has always been what he is also. Even with better teams he NEVER had a high interception rate. He isn’t doing anything different now than he did then and that’s giving his team a chance by scoring points and not turning it over.


OK, now you're talking about Super Bowl 40?? Really.

Aaron Rodgers' team won 6 games this year. Smoke on that and explain that one.

How many games do you think the Steelers win without Ben this year?

Did you know that Green Bay had 222 more rushing yards than the Steelers this year? Apparently not. Steelers 1445 - Green Bay 1667

Steelers scored 52 more points with the worst kicker in the NFL this year. Did you know that? Obviously not. Steelers 428 - Green Bay 376

Did you know that Green Bay was losing big in a lot more games this year, and Aaron Rodgers was piling up stats at garbage time against soft defenses all year? I guess not.

You have a hell of a lot to say to me, when I say in my original post that Ben can't be exonerated for throwing 16 interceptions. Do you actually read my posts, or are you just firing off whatever is on your mind without knowing any stats or watching Rodgers play...because that's what it sounds like. You're bringing up Ben's interception from years and years ago when we're talking about this year. Stop jumping all over the place and making claims about things we weren't talking about in the original post.

If you want to bash Ben, you go right ahead and keep it up. It's fans like you that piss me off. Just be happy you had a quarterback that good for as long as you have. Bitching about a guy walking into the Hall of Fame when he retires says a lot more about you than it does about him. There are some times that I wish Ben went somewhere else just to shut fans like you up when this team wins 3-4 games and scores 16 points a game once the "real problem" leaves.

[zulater]

OK, now you're talking about Super Bowl 40?? Really.

Aaron Rodgers' team won 6 games this year. Smoke on that and explain that one.

How many games do you think the Steelers win without Ben this year?

Did you know that Green Bay had 222 more rushing yards than the Steelers this year? Apparently not. Steelers 1445 - Green Bay 1667

Steelers scored 52 more points with the worst kicker in the NFL this year. Did you know that? Obviously not. Steelers 428 - Green Bay 376

Did you know that Green Bay was losing big in a lot more games this year, and Aaron Rodgers was piling up stats at garbage time against soft defenses all year? I guess not.

You have a hell of a lot to say to me, when I say in my original post that Ben can't be exonerated for throwing 16 interceptions. Do you actually read my posts, or are you just firing off whatever is on your mind without knowing any stats or watching Rodgers play...because that's what it sounds like. You're bringing up Ben's interception from years and years ago when we're talking about this year. Stop jumping all over the place and making claims about things we weren't talking about in the original post.

If you want to bash Ben, you go right ahead and keep it up. It's fans like you that piss me off. Just be happy you had a quarterback that good for as long as you have. Bitching about a guy walking into the Hall of Fame when he retires says a lot more about you than it does about him. There are some times that I wish Ben went somewhere else just to shut fans like you up when this team wins 3-4 games and scores 16 points a game once the "real problem" leaves.


:smoker::alcohol::hatsoff::rockon::tt03::yup:

[StillCurtains]

Rodgers can’t win, if he doesn’t throw picks he’s not forcing ball down field trying to win games. Yet if he did lead league in picks like Ben the he’d be ridiculed for throwing pics. lMAO, you can’t make this shit up. The guy plays injured all the time. A few years ago in playoffs he could barely walk. You can’t possibly question his desire to win.


Exactly my friend! Apparently you have to have an astronomical amount of picks to show you have a desire to win. Smh... He is only concerned with his stat sheet, yet he throws hail marys at the end of halfs and games which is the lowest percentage play in the game.

The problem is that many people have things skewed. When it comes to taking chances, it’s about how many times, why, and when you are taking them.

When it comes to Ben, he takes chances ALL THE DAMN TIME. Holding onto the ball too long when you don’t need to. A prime example of Ben taking a chance that is not warranted was his first pick vs Denver. The Steelers are up in the 3rd 17-10 and driving. Instead of protecting the lead and the ball to go up 24-10, Ben decides to force the ball and throw a pick.

Denver then takes Ben’s charitable gift and turns it into a 17-17 tie instead of a 24-10 deficit. Why are you taking a chance with a LEAD???? Brady, Brees and Rodgers don’t take THOSE kind of chances. They understand the importance of the situation. They know they have the lead, so they protect the ball, go in for the score and put the game away. No chance needed in those situations. They take chances when they are needed.

That is the difference with guys like Brady, Brees and Rodgers from Ben. It’s also the reason that Ben and the Steelers end up in so many unnecessary barn burners and those guys do not. Ben takes way too many chances when there is no need for it keeping other teams in the game.

[zulater]

Wonder how Ben finished 3rd in the league in QBR when he sucks so effing bad? That rating considers ever qb' touch, drop, sack, decision. Honestly I don't know how they come up with it all. But you'll often see a game where a qb plays mediocre and gets a good passing rating, but then you look at their qbr and it's like 40 and you feel that's more like what we saw.

[pczach]

Exactly my friend! Apparently you have to have an astronomical amount of picks to show you have a desire to win. Smh... He is only concerned with his stat sheet, yet he throws hail marys at the end of halfs and games which is the lowest percentage play in the game.

The problem is that many people have things skewed. When it comes to taking chances, it’s about how many times, why, and when you are taking them.

When it comes to Ben, he takes chances ALL THE DAMN TIME. Holding onto the ball too long when you don’t need to. A prime example of Ben taking a chance that is not warranted was his first pick vs Denver. The Steelers are up in the 3rd 17-10 and driving. Instead of protecting the lead and the ball to go up 24-10, Ben decides to force the ball and throw a pick.

Denver then takes Ben’s charitable gift and turns it into a 17-17 tie instead of a 24-10 deficit. Why are you taking a chance with a LEAD???? Brady, Brees and Rodgers don’t take THOSE kind of chances. They understand the importance of the situation. They know they have the lead, so they protect the ball, go in for the score and put the game away. No chance needed in those situations. They take chances when they are needed.

That is the difference with guys like Brady, Brees and Rodgers from Ben. It’s also the reason that Ben and the Steelers end up in so many unnecessary barn burners and those guys do not. Ben takes way too many chances when there is no need for it keeping other teams in the game.



Here's a chart with NEXT GEN stats. You're wrong again like basically everything else you've said here. Ben gets rid of the ball faster than Aaron Rodgers by a lot .

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#yards

Look through it if you like and then make whatever claims you like.

[StillCurtains]

OK, now you're talking about Super Bowl 40?? Really.

Aaron Rodgers' team won 6 games this year. Smoke on that and explain that one.

How many games do you think the Steelers win without Ben this year?

Did you know that Green Bay had 222 more rushing yards than the Steelers this year? Apparently not. Steelers 1445 - Green Bay 1667

Steelers scored 52 more points with the worst kicker in the NFL this year. Did you know that? Obviously not. Steelers 428 - Green Bay 376

Did you know that Green Bay was losing big in a lot more games this year, and Aaron Rodgers was piling up stats at garbage time against soft defenses all year? I guess not.

You have a hell of a lot to say to me, when I say in my original post that Ben can't be exonerated for throwing 16 interceptions. Do you actually read my posts, or are you just firing off whatever is on your mind without knowing any stats or watching Rodgers play...because that's what it sounds like. You're bringing up Ben's interception from years and years ago when we're talking about this year. Stop jumping all over the place and making claims about things we weren't talking about in the original post.

If you want to bash Ben, you go right ahead and keep it up. It's fans like you that piss me off. Just be happy you had a quarterback that good for as long as you have. Bitching about a guy walking into the Hall of Fame when he retires says a lot more about you than it does about him. There are some times that I wish Ben went somewhere else just to shut fans like you up when this team wins 3-4 games and scores 16 points a game once the "real problem" leaves.

If you would actually READ what I say then you would see that I said his Superbowl 40 redzone pick is THE SAME type of picks that Ben is STILL making and it is 13 years later. He even made the SAME type of pick to Rodney Harrison in the AFCCG in 2004 for 6!

Did you see Ben’s pick 6 against the Bengals in a must win game that provided them with their only TD? I gave Ben his credit, but you need to take the blinders off if you think he isn’t part of the problem this year. You and I also both know that Green Bay isn’t that good.

Cobb has been hurt part of the season and as I said, he and Graham are a shell of their former selves. He really only has Devonte Adams.

How about we give Ben Adams and a washed up Cobb and Graham and give Rodgers AB, Juju, McDonald and Switzer to throw to. I bet you Ben’s stats would drop significantly and Rodgers would best Ben’s numbers and wins with his weapons.

Ben may be a Steeler, but there is a reason noone puts him in the same category as Brady, Brees, Manning and Rodgers. If you do, you’re just being a homer.

[pczach]

If you would actually READ what I say then you would see that I said his Superbowl 40 redzone pick is THE SAME type of picks that Ben is STILL making and it is 13 years later. He even made the SAME type of pick to Rodney Harrison in the AFCCG in 2004 for 6!

Did you see Ben’s pick 6 against the Bengals in a must win game that provided them with their only TD? I gave Ben his credit, but you need to take the blinders off if you think he isn’t part of the problem this year. You and I also both know that Green Bay isn’t that good.

Cobb has been hurt part of the season and as I said, he and Graham are a shell of their former selves. He really only has Devonte Adams.

How about we give Ben Adams and a washed up Cobb and Graham and give Rodgers AB, Juju, McDonald and Switzer to throw to. I bet you Ben’s stats would drop significantly and Rodgers would best Ben’s numbers and wins with his weapons.

Ben may be a Steeler, but there is a reason noone puts him in the same category as Brady, Brees, Manning and Rodgers. If you do, you’re just being a homer.


I said that Ben has to throw less interceptions. WTF don't you get about that?

That's alright. I give you a chart showing you that you are wrong again and you choose to ignore it. Nothing surprising there.

Talking to a wall isn't something I'm interested in. I'm out.

[StillCurtains]

Here's a chart with NEXT GEN stats. You're wrong again like basically everything else you've said here. Ben gets rid of the ball faster than Aaron Rodgers by a lot .

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#yards

Look through it if you like and then make whatever claims you like.

You refuse to acknowledge the rest of what I said because you know it’s true. The thing is, Rodgers doesn’t force bad throws for turnovers when he does it does he? Yes, Rodgers holds onto it but is way more mobile than Ben to keep plays alive. He’s alot faster and can escape would be tacklers. Even with that, he protects the ball much better than Ben doesn’t he?

Yet this is a guy trying to keep plays alive with both his arm and his legs, but yet you question his will to win and saying he takes no chances. He takes chances, but not wrecklessly.

[zulater]

If you would actually READ what I say then you would see that I said his Superbowl 40 redzone pick is THE SAME type of picks that Ben is STILL making and it is 13 years later. He even made the SAME type of pick to Rodney Harrison in the AFCCG in 2004 for 6!

Did you see Ben’s pick 6 against the Bengals in a must win game that provided them with their only TD? I gave Ben his credit, but you need to take the blinders off if you think he isn’t part of the problem this year. You and I also both know that Green Bay isn’t that good.

Cobb has been hurt part of the season and as I said, he and Graham are a shell of their former selves. He really only has Devonte Adams.

How about we give Ben Adams and a washed up Cobb and Graham and give Rodgers AB, Juju, McDonald and Switzer to throw to. I bet you Ben’s stats would drop significantly and Rodgers would best Ben’s numbers and wins with his weapons.

Ben may be a Steeler, but there is a reason noone puts him in the same category as Brady, Brees, Manning and Rodgers. If you do, you’re just being a homer.

Switzer ain't anything special. Nothing against the guy but I hope he's less a part of the offense next season.


Regardless. I think Ben is better than Brady now. But not close career wise. We get that. Same with Brees and Rodgers. Just as I was ok that Franco was not Walter Payton or O.J. That Swann wasn't Jerry Rice. That Jack Ham wasn't Lawrence Taylor. It's ok to be great but not in the conversation for greatest ever. When it's all said and done Ben's time in Pgh will be considered one of the more successful runs for a 16-18? year span in NFL history. But not the greatest and I'm ok with that. I think we all recognize Ben comes with some warts. But warts and all he's been and still is a damn good player. Really glad he's been and still a part of this franchise. The end!

[StillCurtains]

I said that Ben has to throw less interceptions. WTF don't you get about that?

That's alright. I give you a chart showing you that you are wrong again and you choose to ignore it. Nothing surprising there.

Talking to a wall isn't something I'm interested in. I'm out.

Also, where am I wrong Buddy?

I said that Ben holds on to the ball too long WHEN HE DON’T NEED TO? There is nowhere where I said that he just holds onto the ball too long in general did I?

Nor did I say that he holds onto the ball too long in comparison to any QB either did I?
So I’m glad you wasted your time on posting that statistical chart which had nothing to do with what I said.

[zulater]

Also, where am I wrong Buddy?

I said that Ben holds on to the ball too long WHEN HE DON’T NEED TO? There is nowhere where I said that he just holds onto the ball too long in general did I?

Nor did I say that he holds onto the ball too long in comparison to any QB either did I?
So I’m glad you wasted your time on posting that statistical chart which had nothing to do with what I said.

Actually that chart very much proved you wrong. He doesn't hold on to the ball too long. He used to, and occasionaly he might still. Every qb will on at times. Sometimes your need to make a play outweighs your concern for a sack. But overall he's become quite adapt at getting the ball out quickly. And even when he doesn't his knack for making something out of nothing is still high. Of the sacks he took this year( 23 I think it was), most were result of someone coming in unblocked or beating their block cleanly. And as good as our line was Ben easily saved them 10 sacks this season, several times making near impossible completions in the process of getting rid of it.

Yes we might view Ben with black and gold tinted glasses to some extent. But we still argue specifically and with facts. ( not saying you're not) . And I'd rather be on that side than viewing him through the poison lens your currently engaging.

[pczach]

Also, where am I wrong Buddy?

I said that Ben holds on to the ball too long WHEN HE DON’T NEED TO? There is nowhere where I said that he just holds onto the ball too long in general did I?

Nor did I say that he holds onto the ball too long in comparison to any QB either did I?
So I’m glad you wasted your time on posting that statistical chart which had nothing to do with what I said.




Wow, you're a real douchebag aren't you....Buddy?

Do you want to know a great way to judge how good a quarterback is.....Buddy? You look at that quarterback's road record with no home field advantage. It's not about stats. It's about quarterbacks that are able to do what's necessary to win in a hostile environment. You should check it out sometime.

Aaron Rodgers career road record: 44-46

Drew Brees career road record: 73-66

Ben Roethlisberger career road record: 71-46-1

Tom Brady career road record: 98-46


https://www.footballdb.com/stats/qb-records.html

Yep, that Aaron Rodgers guy can't be doubted or questioned at all. You keep keepin' on.....Buddy.

[StillCurtains]

Wow, you're a real douchebag aren't you....Buddy?

Do you want to know a great way to judge how good a quarterback is.....Buddy? You look at that quarterback's road record with no home field advantage. It's not about stats. It's about quarterbacks that are able to do what's necessary to win in a hostile environment. You should check it out sometime.

Aaron Rodgers career road record: 44-46

Drew Brees career road record: 73-66

Ben Roethlisberger career road record: 71-46-1

Tom Brady career road record: 98-46


https://www.footballdb.com/stats/qb-records.html

Yep, that Aaron Rodgers guy can't be doubted or questioned at all. You keep keepin' on.....Buddy.

Ummmm, this is a team game right? Yup it is! Who consistently had the better teams over the course of their careers Ben, Brees or Rodgers? Look that up too stat checker!

Look up how many top ranked defenses that Brees Chargers/Saints teams and Rodgers Packers teams have had over the course of their careers also. They had some middle of the pack defenses, but none dominant. Might that help you win some away games? Sure will

Last time I checked, Ben had some pretty dominant defenses he played behind. So just bringing up road game wins don’t tell the story either. It’s like giving the Patriots credit for winning their division for the 1,000th year in the row. They basically get 6 wins a year vs the Dolphins, Jets and Bills.

You continue to want to look up stats in comparison to Brady, Brees and Rodgers. Keep doing it. I don’t need stats to see that those guys are better than Ben. The eye test tells me all. I see what is played out on the field, and it’s better than Ben.

What is funny is that I said that Ben IS a HOF QB. Just because he is a Steeler, won us 2 Superbowls, and broke all kinds of Steeler passing records in his HOF career doesn’t mean I need to ignore what is going on now.

I’m very glad he has been our QB, but all of his accomplishments should not give him a mulligan for playing a part in the Steelers not being in the playoffs TODAY!

Did Ben win 2 Superbowls in 2005 & 2008 in his HOF career? YES!!!!!!
Did Ben cost the Steelers a playoff birth with his play in 2018? YES!!!!!!

Both are facts and that is my point.

[StillCurtains]

Switzer ain't anything special. Nothing against the guy but I hope he's less a part of the offense next season.


Regardless. I think Ben is better than Brady now. But not close career wise. We get that. Same with Brees and Rodgers. Just as I was ok that Franco was not Walter Payton or O.J. That Swann wasn't Jerry Rice. That Jack Ham wasn't Lawrence Taylor. It's ok to be great but not in the conversation for greatest ever. When it's all said and done Ben's time in Pgh will be considered one of the more successful runs for a 16-18? year span in NFL history. But not the greatest and I'm ok with that. I think we all recognize Ben comes with some warts. But warts and all he's been and still is a damn good player. Really glad he's been and still a part of this franchise. The end!

We’re on the same team here my friend. I’m glad Ben is our QB. He has done great things for our franchise in his HOF worthy career and I will miss him when he’s gone.

His HOF credentials are not in question. All I am saying is that TODAY in 2018, Ben’s play has cost us a playoff birth.

[zulater]

Ummmm, this is a team game right? Yup it is! Who consistently had the better teams over the course of their careers Ben, Brees or Rodgers? Look that up too stat checker!

Look up how many top ranked defenses that Brees Chargers/Saints teams and Rodgers Packers teams have had over the course of their careers also. They had some middle of the pack defenses, but none dominant. Might that help you win some away games? Sure will

Last time I checked, Ben had some pretty dominant defenses he played behind. So just bringing up road game wins don’t tell the story either. It’s like giving the Patriots credit for winning their division for the 1,000th year in the row. They basically get 6 wins a year vs the Dolphins, Jets and Bills.

You continue to want to look up stats in comparison to Brady, Brees and Rodgers. Keep doing it. I don’t need stats to see that those guys are better than Ben. The eye test tells me all. I see what is played out on the field, and it’s better than Ben.

What is funny is that I said that Ben IS a HOF QB. Just because he is a Steeler, won us 2 Superbowls, and broke all kinds of Steeler passing records in his HOF career doesn’t mean I need to ignore what is going on now.

I’m very glad he has been our QB, but all of his accomplishments should not give him a mulligan for playing a part in the Steelers not being in the playoffs TODAY!

Did Ben win 2 Superbowls in 2005 & 2008 in his HOF career? YES!!!!!!
Did Ben cost the Steelers a playoff birth with his play in 2018? YES!!!!!!

Both are facts and that is my point.

You need a dictionary! That's an opinion. Far from a fact and a poorly thought out opinion at that. lol

We lost LeVeon Bell for the season and improved offensively in every meaningful category over our 2017 season. More points, more yards, more first downs, and a better 3rd down conversion rate. The interceptions remained the same at 17 for the team. Conversely the defense was worse in every single one of those category's this season. They forced 6 less turnovers than they did last season. And oh yeah our kicker sucked this year and he was money every time he was called upon last season. But yeah "fact" is "Ben cost the Steelers a playoff birth with his play in 2018."No that's fiction.

Yes there were instances he could have been better. Yes there times he hurt the cause. But he was not the reason we missed the playoffs. It's more truthful to say he was one of the driving forces of the team getting so close to a playoff berth.

I will never look back on the 2018 season and think Ben cost us that one. And I can't fathom why anyone ever would?

:frusty:

[StillCurtains]

You need a dictionary! That's an opinion. Far from a fact and a poorly thought out opinion at that. lol

We lost LeVeon Bell for the season and improved offensively in every meaningful category over our 2017 season. More points, more yards, more first downs, and a better 3rd down conversion rate. The interceptions remained the same at 17 for the team. Conversely the defense was worse in every single one of those category's this season. They forced 6 less turnovers than they did last season. And oh yeah our kicker sucked this year and he was money every time he was called upon last season. But yeah "fact" is "Ben cost the Steelers a playoff birth with his play in 2018."No that's fiction.

Yes there were instances he could have been better. Yes there times he hurt the cause. But he was not the reason we missed the playoffs. It's more truthful to say he was one of the driving forces of the team getting so close to a playoff berth.

:frusty:

Ok, tell me if this is fact or opinion.
Game 1, 21-21 tie vs Cleveland
Ben has 5 turnovers.
Defense holds to 21 points to stay in it.
5-turnovers can lead to a potential 35 points.
Ben has 4 interceptions and 1 fumble.

You would think that after 1 or 2 turnovers, Ben would man up and realize that the defense is keeping them in the game. You would think he would tighten up and not turn it over again after his 2nd turnover knowing that he’s costing them the game. No, what does he do? Give the ball away 3 MORE TIMES.

It was a TIE!!!! Imagine if Ben has 4 turnovers, we probably win! Imagine if he had even 3 turnovers, which is still alot, we most SURELY win!!!

No, he gives them 5 and we end up with a tie.
Just THIS game alone knocked us out.

I could use other games, but I’m just going to use this one. We win this game, we are in the playoffs at 10-6 with a better divisional record than Baltimore instead of out at 9-6-1.

So, if we have a season opening tie, and one guy alone turned it over 5 TIMES, would you hold that guy responsible for not winning or no? I sure do, and because he was a turnover machine in that game, we are out of the playoffs. Like it or not, you know it too.

[zulater]

Ok, tell me if this is fact or opinion.
Game 1, 21-21 tie vs Cleveland
Ben has 5 turnovers.
Defense holds to 21 points to stay in it.
5-turnovers can lead to a potential 35 points.
Ben has 4 interceptions and 1 fumble.

You would think that after 1 or 2 turnovers, Ben would man up and realize that the defense is keeping them in the game. You would think he would tighten up and not turn it over again after his 2nd turnover knowing that he’s costing them the game. No, what does he do? Give the ball away 3 MORE TIMES.

It was a TIE!!!! Imagine if Ben has 4 turnovers, we probably win! Imagine if he had even 3 turnovers, which is still alot, we most SURELY win!!!

No, he gives them 5 and we end up with a tie.
Just THIS game alone knocked us out.

I could use other games, but I’m just going to use this one. We win this game, we are in the playoffs at 10-6 with a better divisional record than Baltimore instead of out at 9-6-1.

So, if we have a season opening tie, and one guy alone turned it over 5 TIMES, would you hold that guy responsible for not winning or no? I sure do, and because he was a turnover machine in that game, we are out of the playoffs. Like it or not, you know it too.

I don't absolve Ben of the first Cleveland game. But you don't lose your season on opening day. Regardless to break down that game a little. It was in lousy weather. Probably factored in to some of the balls Ben sailed that day.

Little further. First interception, terrible in every way by Ben. No excuse to be had. Forced the ball into double coverage. Squandered a scoring opportunity. -3 to 7 point loss there.

2nd int deep pass from own 12 yard line ( ball thrown 52 yards) clearly a miscommunication between Ben and AB. Ben expected AB to turn his route up more, AB flattened out his pattern, unfortunately Brown defender (Ward) saw the pass all the way and snagged it. Actually when you consider starting field position that play actually didn't kill the Steelers. Was like a 52 yard punt with no return. Browns did a 3 and out afterwards. Anyway how do you assign blame here when it's just as likely AB ran the route wrong as Ben made the wrong read? Watching the play multiple times there's little doubt Ben threw the ball where he intended.

3rd interception. Steelers did a nice job driving from their own 9 to the Browns 37 with 55 seconds to go in the half before Ben threw his 3rd and last pick. The thing with this one was the play that preceded it. On first and 10 from the 37 Ben hits AB on the left sideline perfectly. Ball hits him in both hands well in bounds. A catch we've seen AB make easily scores of times. But not this time. He bobbles it and by time he gains control it's too late to get a second foot inbounds. Should have been first down at the 20. Next play Ben throws a pick on a ball intended for Jesse James. Browns kneel out the half.

So in essence you drove from a dangerous part of the field to just out of fg range when AB fails to make a play that gains you fg range with time to make it more. Ben throws a stupid interception on the next play and the half ends at 7-0 Steelers. Something to keep in mind. They did not lose points because of the int. They were not in makeable fg range yet. AB had more to do with the failure of that possession than Ben. Because Ben's int happened out of fg range. AB's drop cost the Steelers 1st and 10 at the Browns 20. Points off the board.

With all that took place in the first half the Steelers still took a 21-7 lead into the 4th quarter. And at 8.42 of the 4th quarter the critical turning point came. Jordan Berry doinks a crappy punt but as luck (should have) had it the ball glances off the facemask of a Browns player and the Steelers make a clear recovery of the ball at their own 48. If this play is called properly or reversed on replay as it should have been this one is likely over. But as Al Riveron was pissed because he got reamed out in the offseason over the Jesse James reversal the previous December no way was he going to make the clear correction that was evident on film and spitefully upheld the wrong call that was made on the field.

Anyway from there the Steelers defense held but the subsequent Browns punt put the Steelers at their own 18 and on first down James Conner is crushed by Myles Garrett and fumbles. One play later Browns score the TD game on.

Steelers get the ball back, complete one pass to the 37. Myles Garrett crushes Ben and he fumbles. Browns did not score off that turnover. They did a 3 and out. But they of course pinned the Steelers deep in their own territory at the 5. On 3 plays the Steelers gain a first down to their own 18. Then they go turtle offense. 3 Conner runs for 1 yard later they're punting from the 19. In two plays and 12 seconds the Browns and Tryrod Taylor complete two passes and drive 55 yards for the tying score.

Game goes to OT. Browns win the toss are forced to punt. Steelers get the ball at their own 17 make it to the 38 in a couple plays. AV gets caught holding negating a 4 yard gain and Steelers are behind the sticks. 2nd and 20 Ben is sacked for a loss of 10, possession over.

Force a Browns punt.

Steelers take the ball at their own 45 and in 5 plays(3 passes, 2 runs) drive to the Browns 31 and go turtle offense on first and 2nd down. Let Ben throw on 3rd down for a gain of 6 to the 24 and of course Boz misses the fg.

Of course later in OT Ben fumbled which led to a Browns fg attempt that was blocked.

Anyway you look at everything in context I don't see Ben as the cause of this loss (tie)

In order I blame

Al Riveron. Reverse the obvious and the game is likely over at that point.

Myles Garrett. Credit where it's due. He took over the game after the botched replay review of the punt went the Browns way.

Allejandro Villenueva. Garrett is great no doubt. But AV really had a piss poor game. Not only did he miss his block on two critical fumbles he also was guilty of a drive altering hold.

Ben . The Steelers overcame the 3 first half int's. and were in good position to win the game in the 4th quarter. But still losing potential points twice in the first half played into the games end result. The fumbles would be the only two lost fumbles by Ben all year. And regardless I think it's ludicrous to place full blame on a qb trying to make a play downfield who gets crushed by Myles Garrett on a blindside hit!

AB. I think AB ran his route wrong on the 2nd interception and his drop of a ball that would have put the Steelers in the red zone prior to Ben's last pick cost the Steelers a chance to extend the lead going into the half.

Defense. That was a terrible offense you were facing. Make the damn stop at the end of regulation! 55 yards in 2 plays in 12 seconds against Tyrod Taylor! Actually maybe they should be moved up a place or two!

Coaching. Got too conservative trying to close the game in the 4th quarter. Play a little more aggressive and get another first down or two and end it in the victory formation. But tin their defense. It's freaking Tyrod Taylor over there! The defense should have been able to make the damn stop! Hell I think I might put the defense at the top of this list after all! lol

In conclusion as is the truth on all games, win or lose it rarely comes down to one man. Plenty of blame and some credit ( Myles Garrett) to be given here. And in my opinion Ben wasn't even the primary culprit despite his subpar game. And I'm certainly not going to pin the entire season on this one game. If you were going to blame the season on just one game I would still place the Raider loss as the chief culprit.

[Hawkman]

Ummmm, this is a team game right?


Did Ben cost the Steelers a playoff birth with his play in 2018? YES!!!!!!

.

As did Boz, Grimble, Washington, Juju, Burns, Davis, the Refs, the coaches,......and who else.....as you say, a “team” sport.

[The Bark]

I can only say this: Antonio Brown has made me appreciate Hines Ward more than I already had and I didn't think that was even possible. Thanks, AB!

[StillCurtains]

As did Boz, Grimble, Washington, Juju, Burns, Davis, the Refs, the coaches,......and who else.....as you say, a “team” sport.

If you would read my previous posts I stated that Ben is partially the blame. I did not say he is the sole reason. It’s just that some here will not acknowledge that he played a role in the Steelers being out of the playoffs because he is a HOFer.

Being that is the case, I used the season opener as an example. In a game that ended in a 21-21 tie, One player turned it over 5 times. That player was Ben. I don’t care what kind of spin that anyone tries to put on it, if you don’t turn it over 5 times, that is a win instead of a tie, end of discussion.

Off of that game alone, that would have made us 10-6 and division champs. Instead we are 9-6-1 and out of the playoffs. Ben played a part.

[StillCurtains]

I don't absolve Ben of the first Cleveland game. But you don't lose your season on opening day. Regardless to break down that game a little. It was in lousy weather. Probably factored in to some of the balls Ben sailed that day.

Little further. First interception, terrible in every way by Ben. No excuse to be had. Forced the ball into double coverage. Squandered a scoring opportunity. -3 to 7 point loss there.

2nd int deep pass from own 12 yard line ( ball thrown 52 yards) clearly a miscommunication between Ben and AB. Ben expected AB to turn his route up more, AB flattened out his pattern, unfortunately Brown defender (Ward) saw the pass all the way and snagged it. Actually when you consider starting field position that play actually didn't kill the Steelers. Was like a 52 yard punt with no return. Browns did a 3 and out afterwards. Anyway how do you assign blame here when it's just as likely AB ran the route wrong as Ben made the wrong read? Watching the play multiple times there's little doubt Ben threw the ball where he intended.

3rd interception. Steelers did a nice job driving from their own 9 to the Browns 37 with 55 seconds to go in the half before Ben threw his 3rd and last pick. The thing with this one was the play that preceded it. On first and 10 from the 37 Ben hits AB on the left sideline perfectly. Ball hits him in both hands well in bounds. A catch we've seen AB make easily scores of times. But not this time. He bobbles it and by time he gains control it's too late to get a second foot inbounds. Should have been first down at the 20. Next play Ben throws a pick on a ball intended for Jesse James. Browns kneel out the half.

So in essence you drove from a dangerous part of the field to just out of fg range when AB fails to make a play that gains you fg range with time to make it more. Ben throws a stupid interception on the next play and the half ends at 7-0 Steelers. Something to keep in mind. They did not lose points because of the int. They were not in makeable fg range yet. AB had more to do with the failure of that possession than Ben. Because Ben's int happened out of fg range. AB's drop cost the Steelers 1st and 10 at the Browns 20. Points off the board.

With all that took place in the first half the Steelers still took a 21-7 lead into the 4th quarter. And at 8.42 of the 4th quarter the critical turning point came. Jordan Berry doinks a crappy punt but as luck (should have) had it the ball glances off the facemask of a Browns player and the Steelers make a clear recovery of the ball at their own 48. If this play is called properly or reversed on replay as it should have been this one is likely over. But as Al Riveron was pissed because he got reamed out in the offseason over the Jesse James reversal the previous December no way was he going to make the clear correction that was evident on film and spitefully upheld the wrong call that was made on the field.

Anyway from there the Steelers defense held but the subsequent Browns punt put the Steelers at their own 18 and on first down James Conner is crushed by Myles Garrett and fumbles. One play later Browns score the TD game on.

Steelers get the ball back, complete one pass to the 37. Myles Garrett crushes Ben and he fumbles. Browns did not score off that turnover. They did a 3 and out. But they of course pinned the Steelers deep in their own territory at the 5. On 3 plays the Steelers gain a first down to their own 18. Then they go turtle offense. 3 Conner runs for 1 yard later they're punting from the 19. In two plays and 12 seconds the Browns and Tryrod Taylor complete two passes and drive 55 yards for the tying score.

Game goes to OT. Browns win the toss are forced to punt. Steelers get the ball at their own 17 make it to the 38 in a couple plays. AV gets caught holding negating a 4 yard gain and Steelers are behind the sticks. 2nd and 20 Ben is sacked for a loss of 10, possession over.

Force a Browns punt.

Steelers take the ball at their own 45 and in 5 plays(3 passes, 2 runs) drive to the Browns 31 and go turtle offense on first and 2nd down. Let Ben throw on 3rd down for a gain of 6 to the 24 and of course Boz misses the fg.

Of course later in OT Ben fumbled which led to a Browns fg attempt that was blocked.

Anyway you look at everything in context I don't see Ben as the cause of this loss (tie)

In order I blame

Al Riveron. Reverse the obvious and the game is likely over at that point.

Myles Garrett. Credit where it's due. He took over the game after the botched replay review of the punt went the Browns way.

Allejandro Villenueva. Garrett is great no doubt. But AV really had a piss poor game. Not only did he miss his block on two critical fumbles he also was guilty of a drive altering hold.

Ben . The Steelers overcame the 3 first half int's. and were in good position to win the game in the 4th quarter. But still losing potential points twice in the first half played into the games end result. The fumbles would be the only two lost fumbles by Ben all year. And regardless I think it's ludicrous to place full blame on a qb trying to make a play downfield who gets crushed by Myles Garrett on a blindside hit!

AB. I think AB ran his route wrong on the 2nd interception and his drop of a ball that would have put the Steelers in the red zone prior to Ben's last pick cost the Steelers a chance to extend the lead going into the half.

Defense. That was a terrible offense you were facing. Make the damn stop at the end of regulation! 55 yards in 2 plays in 12 seconds against Tyrod Taylor! Actually maybe they should be moved up a place or two!

Coaching. Got too conservative trying to close the game in the 4th quarter. Play a little more aggressive and get another first down or two and end it in the victory formation. But tin their defense. It's freaking Tyrod Taylor over there! The defense should have been able to make the damn stop! Hell I think I might put the defense at the top of this list after all! lol

In conclusion as is the truth on all games, win or lose it rarely comes down to one man. Plenty of blame and some credit ( Myles Garrett) to be given here. And in my opinion Ben wasn't even the primary culprit despite his subpar game. And I'm certainly not going to pin the entire season on this one game. If you were going to blame the season on just one game I would still place the Raider loss as the chief culprit.


Listen, if this was an anomaly I could give it a pass. The truth is that it wasn’t. Ben has turned the ball over in games MULTIPLE TIMES throughout the season. So no matter what kind of spin that you put on it, the 5 turnovers are more like a pattern of what was to come than a fluke.

There is nothing flukey about it when you do that throughout the season. 5 turnovers are 5 turnovers. That is an extremely high number and is impossible to not pinpoint blame on a person that has committed that. The coaching, Grimble, Boz, Conner, Juju, the defense, special teams and etc, are all reasons that we are sitting home. All I am saying is that Ben needs to be thrown in the pot too, and you refuse to acknowledge that.

You said that he is the reason they came so close and that is it. Well so is JuJu, AB, Watt, The O-line, Heyward and Haden. The truth is that Ben is also one of the culprits in why they are out. You just refuse to accept it.

[zulater]

Listen, if this was an anomaly I could give it a pass. The truth is that it wasn’t. Ben has turned the ball over in games MULTIPLE TIMES throughout the season. So no matter what kind of spin that you put on it, the 5 turnovers are more like a pattern of what was to come than a fluke.

There is nothing flukey about it when you do that throughout the season. 5 turnovers are 5 turnovers. That is an extremely high number and is impossible to not pinpoint blame on a person that has committed that. The coaching, Grimble, Boz, Conner, Juju, the defense, special teams and etc, are all reasons that we are sitting home. All I am saying is that Ben needs to be thrown in the pot too, and you refuse to acknowledge that.

You said that he is the reason they came so close and that is it. Well so is JuJu, AB, Watt, The O-line, Heyward and Haden. The truth is that Ben is also one of the culprits in why they are out. You just refuse to accept it.

Remove Ben from this team and put an average qb behind center and this team never is in the hunt. Period. Done arguing with you.

- - - Updated - - -

Welcome to ignore.

[86WARD]

Remove Ben from this team and put an average qb behind center and this team never is in the hunt. Period. Done arguing with you.

- - - Updated - - -

Welcome to ignore.

With the right OC, I think an average starting QB could be successful with AB, JuJu, McDonald and Conner and behind that O-Line. Say an average guy (middle of the road QB-Rating) like Mitch Trubisky, Dak Prescott, Derek Carr...you don’t think one of those guys could be successful with the Steelers current offense and Fichtner?

[zulater]

With the right OC, I think an average starting QB could be successful with AB, JuJu, McDonald and Conner and behind that O-Line. Say an average guy (middle of the road QB-Rating) like Mitch Trubisky, Dak Prescott, Derek Carr...you don’t think one of those guys could be successful with the Steelers current offense and Fichtner?

Not with our defense. Again we set team records for yards and points this season. But we kept giving up leads in the 2nd half. All teams are guilty of not stretching out their leads enough. Witness the Colts and Cowboys yesterday. But when they needed the critical 4th quarter stops they got them.

Hell dude keeps blaming Ben and Ben alone for the Cleveland tie. We had them down 7 one stop from a win. And Tyrod freaking Taylor passes them down the field 55 yards in 12 seconds on 2 plays! And it's all Ben's fault. :frusty:

Getting back to your point. No I don't think those guys you mentioned could lead this team to a winning record with our defense and special teams.

[86WARD]

No with the Defense and Special Teams, Is be hard pressed to find any QB in the history of the sport that could lead the team to the Super Bowl. However, on that side of the ball, I think one of those three guys could be successful as an individual but I agree with you that none of them can lead the team to a better record...but as I said, there’s not many that could.

[StillCurtains]

Remove Ben from this team and put an average qb behind center and this team never is in the hunt. Period. Done arguing with you.

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Welcome to ignore.

How many times did I say that Ben is a HOF QB? YOU are IGNORING that! Yes, Ben ALWAYS gives this team a chance to compete! No, this team would not have 9 wins without him! No, I DON’T want to get rid of Ben! Ben is my guy! But JUST as much as we needed Ben to get close this year, we ALSO needed Juju and AB. Over 1,200 receiving yards by the both of them and 15 TD’s by AB.

Juju and AB made just as many plays for Ben and this team as Ben has made for them. If you take AB and Juju off of the team do we get 9 wins? 9 wins with Washington and Hunter at 1 & 2 and Switzer in the slot? You later have Hunter go on IR and Eli Rogers come off of it? We win 9 games with THEM and no AB and Juju on the roster?

Uhhh, no! I don’t let Ben’s overall HOF career get in the way of what I see RIGHT NOW! The truth is, Ben is every bit accountable for us being out of the playoffs as he is the 9 wins. Also as I said, He had help getting those wins from AB and Juju as well because we wouldn’t have as many without them.

Please read my ENTIRE post and what I said about Ben. I’m not in denial here just using overall credentials. I’m talking about TODAY! It hasn’t been good enough and part of that cost us!

[StillCurtains]

Not with our defense. Again we set team records for yards and points this season. But we kept giving up leads in the 2nd half. All teams are guilty of not stretching out their leads enough. Witness the Colts and Cowboys yesterday. But when they needed the critical 4th quarter stops they got them.

Hell dude keeps blaming Ben and Ben alone for the Cleveland tie. We had them down 7 one stop from a win. And Tyrod freaking Taylor passes them down the field 55 yards in 12 seconds on 2 plays! And it's all Ben's fault. :frusty:

Getting back to your point. No I don't think those guys you mentioned could lead this team to a winning record with our defense and special teams.

You want to talk about 1 stop in the Cleveland game by the defense? Really??? The Cleveland game??? I don’t care if Ryan Leaf is at QB, an offense is going to have some type of success if you gift them the ball 5 FREAKIN’ TIMES!!!!

5 Turnovers and the defense STILL holds to 21 points and keeps the game from being a LOSS, but you hold THEM accountable and not Ben? That is laughable. Here is a note for you to take, after Ben and our offense FAILED once again to score on our last possession, did the defense give up a score on Cleveland’s last possession? NO!!!!

Did Boz play a part, yes but Ben could at least have gotten the ball in the endzone as much as he screwed up. In THIS game, the defense is THE reason they DIDN’T lose.

For you to blame THEM and not Ben in that game proves that you feel Ben could do no wrong and that is a shame.

[GoSlash27]

https://media.giphy.com/media/PzVNvJ5SSLhAs/giphy.gif

Geez... Yinz are fighting with each other like this discussion is actually important.

[StillCurtains]

https://media.giphy.com/media/PzVNvJ5SSLhAs/giphy.gif

Geez... Yinz are fighting with each other like this discussion is actually important.


You’re right. I just think it’s crazy Bro! You can’t just point fingers at everyone else on the team and not have Ben as part of the reason they didn’t make it to the playoffs also.

It’s ridiculous. For some here if you are critical of Ben in any way, then that means that you want him off of the team or traded. It gets to a point that you almost can’t say his name! It’s more like: (“He who is not to be criticized”).

[hawaiiansteeler]

You can’t just point fingers at everyone else on the team and not have Ben as part of the reason they didn’t make it to the playoffs also.

it's a team game, the bottom line is we weren't good enough as a team to make the playoffs and that includes all the players, coaches and front office staff.

[DesertSteel]

Anyone else notice that the teams of most of the NFL's best WRs did not make the playoffs (Julio, AB, OBJ)??

[Mojouw]

Anyone else notice that the teams of most of the NFL's best WRs did not make the playoffs (Julio, AB, OBJ)??

Julio was in the SB a few years back. AB has been in playoffs almost every year. Hopkins was in this year. Keenan Allen is in. Marvin Harrison and Wayne were annual participants.

Don’t overthink this. AB is a jerk. AB is also a great WR who makes his team better on Sunday’s.

The question is whether anyone wants to put up with the jerk or if there is another shoe to drop.

[GoSlash27]

You’re right. I just think it’s crazy Bro! You can’t just point fingers at everyone else on the team and not have Ben as part of the reason they didn’t make it to the playoffs also.

It’s ridiculous. For some here if you are critical of Ben in any way, then that means that you want him off of the team or traded. It gets to a point that you almost can’t say his name! It’s more like: (“He who is not to be criticized”).

I'm referring to you just as much as ,if not even more than, the others. I didn't voice support for your opinion, so please don't act as if I did.

[DesertSteel]

Julio was in the SB a few years back. AB has been in playoffs almost every year. Hopkins was in this year. Keenan Allen is in. Marvin Harrison and Wayne were annual participants. Had nothing to do with my comment.


Don’t overthink this. AB is a jerk. AB is also a great WR who makes his team better on Sunday’s. Nothing to overthink. Just an observation. Make from it whatever you want.



The question is whether anyone wants to put up with the jerk or if there is another shoe to drop.
I think he's worth the trouble of trying to work it out.

[StillCurtains]

I'm referring to you just as much as ,if not even more than, the others. I didn't voice support for your opinion, so please don't act as if I did.


I didn’t say you support my opinion did I? I have mine and you have yours. I absolutely DID take it as though you were talking about me as well. That is what you insinuated in your post didn’t you?

Your hostile response as of now is what is rather alarming, but YOU’RE the one that posted about someone fighting! Take a deep breath Bro! This is a message board where we discuss our opinions (right or wrong) about football.

No need to take things any further than that. Happy New Year to you and yours as well as EVERYONE else on this board.

[GoSlash27]

I didn’t say you support my opinion did I?
So don't try that "yeah, bro I know ,right?" crap as if I'm publicly siding with you. It's weak and pathetic.

Your hostile response as of now is what is rather alarming, but YOU’RE the one that posted about someone fighting!
Not "hostility", merely clarification. I don't condone your conduct in this discussion and don't wish to be associated with it.


Take a deep breath Bro! This is a message board where we discuss our opinions (right or wrong) about football.

No need to take things any further than that.
https://media.giphy.com/media/Fml0fgAxVx1eM/giphy.gif
Yeah, it's all just Kumbaya, puppies, and rainbows in here. I can tell. I saw the thread. Perhaps you should try taking your own advice?


Happy New Year to you and yours as well as EVERYONE else on this board.
Now *this* I can agree with.

[Mojouw]

Had nothing to do with my comment.
Nothing to overthink. Just an observation. Make from it whatever you want.


I think he's worth the trouble of trying to work it out.

I guess I don't understand your point. The idea that the best WRs dont make the playoffs can be demonstrated to be an inconsistent axiom at best and a false positive at worst. Does that mean you need a top 5 wideout or AB to run? Nope. But it also doesn't mean a dominant WR doesn't help things.

[zulater]

https://media.giphy.com/media/PzVNvJ5SSLhAs/giphy.gif

Geez... Yinz are fighting with each other like this discussion is actually important.

It's not. I get it. Honestly I know it's not allowed but I blame shit ass luck for this season as much as anything. I mean how many times do you see a team gifted two TD's by poor officiating ? We had it happen to us twice against two of the best teams in the league. Blah blah blah yeah I know we still did things to our own detriment. But still two freaking TD's gifted to your opponent on crap ass calls against two excellent teams? That's tough to overcome. ( Talking Chargers and Saints game in case you hadn't already figured it. )

Anyway warts and all I think this was a good team that was just a little snake bit over the season. Need to get better in many ways. But at the same token a little better luck and we could have been sitting home with a bye exactly as we are.


Anyway when someone says we didn't make the playoffs because of Ben I get pissed. We didn't make the playoffs because shit ass calls. An off season by the kicker. A couple misplaced fumbles, and an up and down defense that couldn't get off the field in 3 games. (ironically they did against the Saints twice only to be ripped off by poor officiating.) Yeah no question Ben made some boned headed plays at the wrong time. But the insinuation that he was the reason we missed the playoffs in a season where team records were set in points and yards goads the shit out of me.

[cubanstogie]

It's not. I get it. Honestly I know it's not allowed but I blame shit ass luck for this season as much as anything. I mean how many times do you see a team gifted two TD's by poor officiating ? We had it happen to us twice against two of the best teams in the league. Blah blah blah yeah I know we still did things to our own detriment. But still two freaking TD's gifted to your opponent on crap ass calls against two excellent teams? That's tough to overcome. ( Talking Chargers and Saints game in case you hadn't already figured it. )

Anyway warts and all I think this was a good team that was just a little snake bit over the season. Need to get better in many ways. But at the same token a little better luck and we could have been sitting home with a bye exactly as we are.


Anyway when someone says we didn't make the playoffs because of Ben I get pissed. We didn't make the playoffs because shit ass calls. An off season by the kicker. A couple misplaced fumbles, and an up and down defense that couldn't get off the field in 3 games. (ironically they did against the Saints twice only to be ripped off by poor officiating.) Yeah no question Ben made some boned headed plays at the wrong time. But the insinuation that he was the reason we missed the playoffs in a season where team records were set in points and yards goads the shit out of me.
saying Ben is the reason we missed playoffs is obtuse. Just like saying JuJu is reason because he fumbled in Saints game. If you're only pointing at the bad shit Ben did you are forgetting about some comeback wins and a perfect or near perfect QB rating in a game or 2. Ju Ju has made many great catches including a 97 yard TD reception. Its a game of inches, look at the Bears today for proof. Boz make one more FG, Ben throws one less pick, Tomlin doesn't play Ridley or Artie Burns all year. Any of those scenarios could have put Steelers in playoffs. There is enough blame to go around. Leveon gets the most blame from me, he quit on teammates and turned down the opportunity to make 14.5 million not the mention the huge distraction from team. Conner had a few great games and stats showed he was as good as LB but the eye test to me shows LB a better all around back and obviously could have used him. The depressing part is I don't think we will have a QB as good as Ben in my life time, so we better build a great D.

[GoSlash27]

saying Ben is the reason we missed playoffs is obtuse.
I don't think there's any one factor or player we can point to as "the" reason. But I also don't believe that we can't point at a whole lot of factors and players as "a" reason, including Ben.
By my reckoning, we missed the playoffs by a half a game. If any player can be shown to be responsible for a single play that made the difference between a win or loss (or even just tie), then yeah... they share some responsibility in it.

But of course, I'm not worked up over it. Perhaps expecting this one team out of 32 to make the playoffs every season year in and year out is a bit unreasonable...

[stillers4me]

Just trying to lighten the mood in here......

1082014162702745600

[StillCurtains]

So don't try that "yeah, bro I know ,right?" crap as if I'm publicly siding with you. It's weak and pathetic.

Not "hostility", merely clarification. I don't condone your conduct in this discussion and don't wish to be associated with it.


https://media.giphy.com/media/Fml0fgAxVx1eM/giphy.gif
Yeah, it's all just Kumbaya, puppies, and rainbows in here. I can tell. I saw the thread. Perhaps you should try taking your own advice?


Now *this* I can agree with.

The truth is that you jumped the gun on this.
I never said “Yeah Bro! I know right!” In response to you insinuating we were fighting.

What I said was: “YOU’RE RIGHT!” I then followed it up by saying it was crazy, then went on to explain the only point I was trying to make on this topic.

Then when I tell you to pretty much relax in your response, you tell me to follow my own advice. How is that? I didn’t disrespect anyone on this thread. It went back and forth, but it stayed on topic. I didn’t disrespect anyone, nor do I feel that anyone disrespected me through their responses.

You’re the only one that has gotten kind of chippy IMO.

[teegre]

This thread... :toofunny:

[GoSlash27]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LlFe1X0AElc/UDdqi35GH0I/AAAAAAAAAcs/vBi3yE2WJb0/s1600/mummyfacebook-4.jpg
"I didn’t disrespect anyone on this thread. It went back and forth, but it stayed on topic. I didn’t disrespect anyone, nor do I feel that anyone disrespected me through their responses.

You’re the only one that has gotten kind of chippy IMO."

If someone happens to come along and read your post and not notice the last 2 pages, they might believe that.

But fine, have it your way ;)
My only point is this: IF (hypothetically) there *happened to be* a heated argument about this, it would be a singularly pointless subject to be arguing about. It's not like anyone's opinion on this forum (yours, mine, or anyone else's) affects anything.

[StillCurtains]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LlFe1X0AElc/UDdqi35GH0I/AAAAAAAAAcs/vBi3yE2WJb0/s1600/mummyfacebook-4.jpg
"I didn’t disrespect anyone on this thread. It went back and forth, but it stayed on topic. I didn’t disrespect anyone, nor do I feel that anyone disrespected me through their responses.

You’re the only one that has gotten kind of chippy IMO."

If someone happens to come along and read your post and not notice the last 2 pages, they might believe that.

But fine, have it your way ;)
My only point is this: IF (hypothetically) there *happened to be* a heated argument about this, it would be a singularly pointless subject to be arguing about. It's not like anyone's opinion on this forum (yours, mine, or anyone else's) affects anything.

That’s true, but all I am doing is responding to my arguement as they are. No worries though, it’s cool. No hard feelings either way and of course that includes you.

[NCSteeler]

Anyone else notice that the teams of most of the NFL's best WRs did not make the playoffs (Julio, AB, OBJ)??Michael Thomas, Hopkins, Keenan Allen, Amari Cooper, ty Hilton I think all these guys would argue your point. Maybe you meant the top divas are not in the playoffs

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

[86WARD]

Michael Thomas, Hopkins, Keenan Allen, Amari Cooper, ty Hilton I think all these guys would argue your point. Maybe you meant the top divas are not in the playoffs

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

Julio has been far from a Diva...no?