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Mojouw
12-02-2018, 11:53 PM
So Burnett gets hurt and Burns implodes. That means we never see the 3 safety or 7 DB Package that was promised. Instead Bostic, Fort, and Allen get pressed into roles they aren’t capable of filling. This works as long as the defense plays with a lead and the opposing QB can operate under a heavy rush. Clearly that doesn’t always happen. So this leads to the question of whether the inability to move Sutton and the ALLENS into these roles is coaching/scheme or just not having good enough players?

I suspect we’ll never know. But somewhere in all this is the key to the season.

fansince'76
12-02-2018, 11:55 PM
The offense essentially taking the 2nd half off didn't help. You could generally turtle out a win with a 16-point halftime lead at home a decade ago. Not in this new Arena League.

pepsyman1
12-03-2018, 12:05 AM
As bad as the offense was in the 2nd half, we still put up 30 points. This defense can't let us lose when we score 30 points at home. That's just unacceptable. The Patriots lose a starter and no one even notices, we lose someone and it's an entire cascade collapse of the system and we don't even make any adjustments. How many times can Keenan Allen run basically UNCOVERED across the middle of the field without any adjustment? No attempted bump and run, no attempted double teams, nothing. Rivers completed 26 passes, more than HALF to the same guy and we do NOTHING about it.

Mach1
12-03-2018, 12:10 AM
As bad as the offense was in the 2nd half, we still put up 30 points. This defense can't let us lose when we score 30 points at home. That's just unacceptable. The Patriots lose a starter and no one even notices, we lose someone and it's an entire cascade collapse of the system and we don't even make any adjustments. How many times can Keenan Allen run basically UNCOVERED across the middle of the field without any adjustment? No attempted bump and run, no attempted double teams, nothing. Rivers completed 26 passes, more than HALF to the same guy and we do NOTHING about it.

Ask the coach.

fansince'76
12-03-2018, 12:11 AM
As bad as the offense was in the 2nd half, we still put up 30 points. This defense can't let us lose when we score 30 points at home. That's just unacceptable. The Patriots lose a starter and no one even notices, we lose someone and it's an entire cascade collapse of the system and we don't even make any adjustments. How many times can Keenan Allen run basically UNCOVERED across the middle of the field without any adjustment? No attempted bump and run, no attempted double teams, nothing. Rivers completed 26 passes, more than HALF to the same guy and we do NOTHING about it.

Bottom line: If Sean Davis stays the hell out of the way and Haden comes up with the endzone INT, that's the dagger in SD's heart right there, pretty much.

Shoes
12-03-2018, 12:14 AM
As bad as the offense was in the 2nd half, we still put up 30 points. This defense can't let us lose when we score 30 points at home. That's just unacceptable. The Patriots lose a starter and no one even notices, we lose someone and it's an entire cascade collapse of the system and we don't even make any adjustments. How many times can Keenan Allen run basically UNCOVERED across the middle of the field without any adjustment? No attempted bump and run, no attempted double teams, nothing. Rivers completed 26 passes, more than HALF to the same guy and we do NOTHING about it.


Exactly! There is no consistency on either side of the ball. The offense and defense played well in the first half and don't come out of the locker room in the 2nd half. I hold my breath every time Ben throws the ball, it could be a TD or a pick and you can't win like that.

Mojouw
12-03-2018, 12:18 AM
Honestly it’s just not having any legitimate coverage linebackers. When LJ Fort is your best option, you’ve broken through the bottom of the barrel and are scraping bare ground. Combine that with one maybe two competent DBs on the entire roster and you’ve got a defense that is essentially a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. Sensabaugh, Burns, Sutton, Edmunds, Allen, and Allen are currently replacement level or below. Davis is league average and Haden is average that looks amazing by comparison. The entire defensive game plan is wholly dependent on getting pass rushers home prior to the throw. In order to do that, the Steelers have chosen to live with glaring mismatches in coverage. QBs of Rivers caliber can readily identify and exploit that mismatch. Throw in some turnovers or punts on offense and your staring a constant deficit on the face.

JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue
12-03-2018, 12:24 AM
Bottom line: If Sean Davis stays the hell out of the way and Haden comes up with the endzone INT, that's the dagger in SD's heart right there, pretty much. Davis isn't very intelligent or good so expect more of it.

fansince'76
12-03-2018, 12:28 AM
Davis isn't very intelligent or good so expect more of it.

Hell, it could have at least fell incomplete, like it would have 999 times out of 1000. When it popped right up to Allen, it was like déjà vu of the Conner and Grimble fumbles in the Denver game all over again. :doh:

86WARD
12-03-2018, 05:42 AM
Honestly it’s just not having any legitimate coverage linebackers. When LJ Fort is your best option, you’ve broken through the bottom of the barrel and are scraping bare ground. Combine that with one maybe two competent DBs on the entire roster and you’ve got a defense that is essentially a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. Sensabaugh, Burns, Sutton, Edmunds, Allen, and Allen are currently replacement level or below. Davis is league average and Haden is average that looks amazing by comparison. The entire defensive game plan is wholly dependent on getting pass rushers home prior to the throw. In order to do that, the Steelers have chosen to live with glaring mismatches in coverage. QBs of Rivers caliber can readily identify and exploit that mismatch. Throw in some turnovers or punts on offense and your staring a constant deficit on the face.

Actually LJ Fort played very well. If this were a preseason game, this board would be nutting all over Fort as the next coming of Ray Lewis.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-03-2018, 09:48 AM
Davis isn't very intelligent or good so expect more of it.

Actually, Sean Davis is very intelligent. As a kid he was accepted to Washington DC's elite Maret School based on his academics and learned both Chinese and French language during his time in school, majoring in communications.

He is likely more intelligent than 95% of the posters on this board.

EzraTank
12-03-2018, 10:12 AM
We have one win against a team with a winning record (Ravens). That's sad.

Mojouw
12-03-2018, 10:33 AM
Actually LJ Fort played very well. If this were a preseason game, this board would be nutting all over Fort as the next coming of Ray Lewis.

He got a great # of stats, that is far different than playing very well. His assignment, for better or worse, was to cover WRs in the short middle of the field while the pass rush did its work. That did not go well. He was also tasked with helping slow the run game along with Edmunds and Allen. In the second half, that did not go well. He got stonewalled on several delayed LB blitzes as well. LJ Fort seems to have passed Bostic, and that is fine and perhaps even justified as he is a better coverage LB (see Bostic's continued struggles on wheel routes). But to argue that he played well would ignore the two major strategic elements of the game.

Steelers planned on Fort handling receivers between the hashes and 1-7 yards downfield to throw the rest of the DBs at the outside guys and the rest of the front 4-5 guys into the pass rush (Mike Hilton has forgotten how to time blitzes, but that is another story). The Chargers identified that and just beat him like a drum. Finding Fort and completing passes in his area was the main part of their offense for chunks of the game. Fort had ZERO Passes Defensed. Well that and Coty Sensabaugh -- whose superpower is always allowing a completion, but at least it is front of him so he gets to tackle the guy.

86WARD
12-03-2018, 11:48 AM
He got a great # of stats, that is far different than playing very well. His assignment, for better or worse, was to cover WRs in the short middle of the field while the pass rush did its work. That did not go well. He was also tasked with helping slow the run game along with Edmunds and Allen. In the second half, that did not go well. He got stonewalled on several delayed LB blitzes as well. LJ Fort seems to have passed Bostic, and that is fine and perhaps even justified as he is a better coverage LB (see Bostic's continued struggles on wheel routes). But to argue that he played well would ignore the two major strategic elements of the game.

Steelers planned on Fort handling receivers between the hashes and 1-7 yards downfield to throw the rest of the DBs at the outside guys and the rest of the front 4-5 guys into the pass rush (Mike Hilton has forgotten how to time blitzes, but that is another story). The Chargers identified that and just beat him like a drum. Finding Fort and completing passes in his area was the main part of their offense for chunks of the game. Fort had ZERO Passes Defensed. Well that and Coty Sensabaugh -- whose superpower is always allowing a completion, but at least it is front of him so he gets to tackle the guy.

I’m not sure what game you watched. He was all over the field and while he didn’t get any passes defensed no one on that team did covering Keenan Allen and the fact that the Steelers keep running a scheme with a LB on the opposing teams WR1 is a joke. Shazier wouldn’t be able to cover these guys either. A couple of these completions, where it was said Fort was covering, wasn’t on Fort. It was Haden covering and getting caught up “in people” and not able to stay with coverage. The guy played well for what that game was. There wasn’t a defensive guy that played better.

Born2Steel
12-03-2018, 12:27 PM
This is still not a good defense. They have played well at times but not consistently. It’s the offense that has me scratching my head. How is this offense not keeping pace with the elite groups out there? We have the personnel. The Rams don’t even disguise themselves. They line up 3 wide and say try to stop us. Still one of the best, more consistent offenses this season. Our offense has looked completely lost at times. I expect the defense to struggle especially against good veteran QBs. But I also expect the offense to pick up some of that slack.

Shoes
12-03-2018, 12:34 PM
This is still not a good defense. They have played well at times but not consistently. It’s the offense that has me scratching my head. How is this offense not keeping pace with the elite groups out there? We have the personnel. The Rams don’t even disguise themselves. They line up 3 wide and say try to stop us. Still one of the best, more consistent offenses this season. Our offense has looked completely lost at times. I expect the defense to struggle especially against good veteran QBs. But I also expect the offense to pick up some of that slack.

Exactly! And how can you take stone hands DHB, cold off the bench and have him run deep into the EZ, double covered and force the ball to him?

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-03-2018, 02:10 PM
. Finding Fort and completing passes in his area was the main part of their offense for chunks of the game. Fort had ZERO Passes Defensed. Well that and Coty Sensabaugh -- whose superpower is always allowing a completion, but at least it is front of him so he gets to tackle the guy.

Yeah, but at least Sensabaugh had a TFL. Fort probably had 12 tackles that amassed close to 90 yards or more.

Dwinsgames
12-03-2018, 03:03 PM
The offense essentially taking the 2nd half off didn't help. You could generally turtle out a win with a 16-point halftime lead at home a decade ago. Not in this new Arena League.


we probably still could have done that .... IF we would have actually tried , and then Conner got hurt and there went that but the lead was gone by then anyways .... the Refs did not do us ANY favors ( nor should they ) but they sure did the Chargers a few .....

Dwinsgames
12-03-2018, 03:20 PM
This is still not a good defense. They have played well at times but not consistently. It’s the offense that has me scratching my head. How is this offense not keeping pace with the elite groups out there? We have the personnel. The Rams don’t even disguise themselves. They line up 3 wide and say try to stop us. Still one of the best, more consistent offenses this season. Our offense has looked completely lost at times. I expect the defense to struggle especially against good veteran QBs. But I also expect the offense to pick up some of that slack.

not much that can be disagreed with here ... we SHOULD be an offensive powerhouse ....

1) AB best in the game

2) JUJU could be a solid 1 for almost any team in the league

3) Conner is a very good RB and has good hands and can protect a top 5 back in the league this year without a doubt

4) dual threats at TE .... yes I said it ... Both of our TE's can play neither are perfect but both give you enough in different ways .... ( about 800 yards receiving combined )

5) Perhaps the best O-Line in the game right now and without a doubt top 2-3 ....

6) 1st ballot HoF QB

no reason on earth this offense should not be putting up 35+ week in week out ..

what frustrates me more than anything ....

we do 1 think very well on defense and when the game is close or on the line we quit doing it and go into play it safe mode ...

RUSH THE DAMNED PASSER !~!

do not quit send them every down and force the QB to beat you with perfection under duress !!

it is the ONLY thing we do well so live and die by the sword

Mojouw
12-03-2018, 03:57 PM
Ok. So it used to be 30 points a game. Now it is 35 points a game. And I can actually see that. I would argue that another threat at WR is required to push to that 35 ppg mark. Switzer may be coming on as that guy, but a consistent threat outside the hashes would be great that could allow AB and JUJU to face more single coverages.

As to the defense, man they kept sending dudes. Hilton got swallowed up a few times late and on the game clinching first down Hargrave went beast mode on the other Pouncey and crunched Rivers good.

Dwinsgames
12-03-2018, 04:02 PM
Ok. So it used to be 30 points a game. Now it is 35 points a game. And I can actually see that. I would argue that another threat at WR is required to push to that 35 ppg mark. Switzer may be coming on as that guy, but a consistent threat outside the hashes would be great that could allow AB and JUJU to face more single coverages.

As to the defense, man they kept sending dudes. Hilton got swallowed up a few times late and on the game clinching first down Hargrave went beast mode on the other Pouncey and crunched Rivers good.


gotta send the beef and allow your best coverage guy to cover , its cute to see the smallest guy on the field get a sack but lets be honest the chances of him getting Rivers down vs VW getting Rivers down is not close ...

Mojouw
12-03-2018, 04:18 PM
gotta send the beef and allow your best coverage guy to cover , its cute to see the smallest guy on the field get a sack but lets be honest the chances of him getting Rivers down vs VW getting Rivers down is not close ...

I would send 5 on every darn down if someone was ever dumb enough to let me get my hands on an NFL defense. But when you have cobbled together a coverage package out some combination of Marcus Allen, Edmunds, Sensabaugh, Haden, Hilton, Davis, Fort, and other assorted ill-equipped ILBs -- maybe sending 5 and placing all those guys in a serious mismatch isn't the best idea...?

I honestly don't know. But Butler and company's continued inability to deal with "empty sets" or plays that basically accomplish the same purpose post-snap is almost totally unbelievable at this point.

Dwinsgames
12-03-2018, 04:35 PM
I would send 5 on every darn down if someone was ever dumb enough to let me get my hands on an NFL defense. But when you have cobbled together a coverage package out some combination of Marcus Allen, Edmunds, Sensabaugh, Haden, Hilton, Davis, Fort, and other assorted ill-equipped ILBs -- maybe sending 5 and placing all those guys in a serious mismatch isn't the best idea...?

I honestly don't know. But Butler and company's continued inability to deal with "empty sets" or plays that basically accomplish the same purpose post-snap is almost totally unbelievable at this point.


problem is not sending 5 isnt helping them they are still ill equipped to stop anyone , is Dupree or Watt in coverage really going to be a difference maker or are the chances better with them rushing the passer and forcing the QB off his mark and potentially making a bad decision because he was not able to accurately read the field while on the move ?

I like my chances pinning my ears back and forcing the action that having 245- 260 pound men trying to cover a guy 196 pounds soak n wet that is not only faster but as twice agile and the benefit of knowing where he is going vs having to read and react to it

pepsyman1
12-03-2018, 05:41 PM
The pass rush really wasn't an issue last night. The problem was that Rivers was consistently getting rid of the ball in 3 seconds or less. The odds of reaching him that quick are slim. If that's happening, OCCASIONALLY you've got to play some bump and run and try not to let the receivers off the line and disrupt some timing. I know we don't have the coverage people to handle man to man coverage most of the game but if we don't mix it in at least a little bit ANY of the top QB's are gonna make a hot read and get the ball out. With our coverage scheme, finding an open man is usually easy.

Mojouw
12-03-2018, 06:00 PM
The pass rush really wasn't an issue last night. The problem was that Rivers was consistently getting rid of the ball in 3 seconds or less. The odds of reaching him that quick are slim. If that's happening, OCCASIONALLY you've got to play some bump and run and try not to let the receivers off the line and disrupt some timing. I know we don't have the coverage people to handle man to man coverage most of the game but if we don't mix it in at least a little bit ANY of the top QB's are gonna make a hot read and get the ball out. With our coverage scheme, finding an open man is usually easy.

Great points. I think Burns, Sutton, and Burnett being unavailable just made things complicated in the sub-packages they like to play.

Neversatisfied
12-03-2018, 06:21 PM
It's no plan B. This team coached by a solid coach wins and wins big in the playoffs. I really believe that Mike Tomlin is the most overrated coach not only in the NFL but in all of professional sports in the United states. The team more often than not unravels when faced with opponent's deemed weaker. The defense has been completely overhauled within the last 8 seasons and as it stands they are soft and worse yet cocky. Someone else on the board hit the nail on the head when they said something to the effect of the team being a sad reflection of its Head Coach. When things begin to head south in a game there are NO in game adjustments and that screams loud and clear poor coaching.

st33lersguy
12-03-2018, 08:40 PM
The problem is the defensive coaching is just so piss poor it's not even funny. I mean everywhere, it's a joke. Tomlin himself has greatly underachieved and was the AFC's Mike McCarthy until he got fired yesterday

Mojouw
12-04-2018, 12:35 PM
https://steelersdepot.com/2018/12/film-room-the-steelers-still-cant-defend-empty/

Some of what I was thinking about when I opened this thread. Is it that Butler has a totally flawed plan and that is it? OR is it that the ONLY working plan involved Burnett being healthy and playing in Fort's spot (or maybe Edmunds but either way a Safety on Allen) AND Burns being capable of carrying a WR in single coverage opposite Haden. With that not happening, is there a cascading effect where you can't do much of anything but hold on for dear life and hope the front 4 break the play up?

Sensabaugh can't be left in single coverage so Davis has to shade to his side while also playing the deep middle. Hilton and Haden can but that only accounts for 1-2 of the receiving options. Edmunds is too dumb right now to switch guys on the fly, so if his area gets flooded with multiple options (often the point of an empty set look by the offense) his rookie brain overloads. VW/FORT/BOSTIC are being pressed into coverage roles that are mismatch out of the gate. Couple all that with the inability of Sutton and Brian Allen to play their way onto the field. Think how bad it must look in practice if Coty Sensabaugh remains one of your best coverage options on the outside?

Long story short, Butler looks like a total moron. And maybe he is. But what options does he have if the guys that were supposed to be integral to running a nickel/dime/quarters defense have demonstrated they are unplayable either due to injury or complete ineffectiveness? I'm not saying it should be the current crap-fest of bad ideas, but I am not certain there are any good options to pivot too either.

86WARD
12-04-2018, 07:05 PM
Any plan involving Burns is a flawed plan. It’s an easy and cheap comment to make but it’s true.

pepsyman1
12-04-2018, 11:00 PM
Any plan involving Burns is a flawed plan. It’s an easy and cheap comment to make but it’s true.

Sometimes you gotta work with what you are given....lol. Easy and cheap or not, it's correct

Mojouw
12-04-2018, 11:05 PM
Any plan involving Burns is a flawed plan. It’s an easy and cheap comment to make but it’s true.

I think they were counting on one of Burns, Sutton, or even Brian Allen to step up and sieze the CB job or at least make it interesting. Instead the last traffic cone left standing is Sensabaugh. Who looks great by comparison for a guy who might not make more than a few rosters league wide.

It is a shame because they basically can only reliably run base and nickel as a result. With a really bad dime package for giggles.

teegre
12-05-2018, 06:55 AM
With the 32nd pick in the 2019 NFL Draft, the Pittsburgh Steelers select...

Byron Murphy, CB, Washington

86WARD
12-05-2018, 05:47 PM
With the 32nd pick in the 2019 NFL Draft, the Pittsburgh Steelers select...

Byron Murphy, CB, Washington

Sorry dude...that pick along with the 2020 first round pick will be Jacksonville's. We'll get stuck with Jalen Ramsey...lol.

Dwinsgames
12-05-2018, 08:13 PM
when you play away from your strength you are playing towards your weaknesses ...

teegre
12-06-2018, 06:37 AM
Sorry dude...that pick along with the 2020 first round pick will be Jacksonville's. We'll get stuck with Jalen Ramsey...lol.

Drat


:wink02: