Game balls 'n goats at Denver

[GoSlash27]

If I can give a game ball for a loss, mine goes to Ryan Switzer. He played his guts out.

[steelerdude15]

Every single person is a goat. They should have blown the Broncos out, but they screwed up too many times. Should been at least 41-17 Steelers.

[86WARD]

Game Ball - Chris Boswell, AV and Okorafor (MM), forgot JuJu...lol.

Goats - James Conner, Ben, Haden and the coaching staff. The defensive game plan has major holes and it’s showing on a weekly basis. offensively the Broncos handled the Steelers...even on defense they schemed to force the Steelers into a game plan they didn’t want. Everything was nickel and dime with the exception of the JuJu reception and run.

[Rotorhead]

Goat is Conner and Ben

While the Def didn’t okay lights out, they kept us in the game despite another turnover fest by the offense.

4 TO’s a game won’t get you very far, what is that 3 or 4 games with 4+ TO’s?

[fansince'76]

Pretty much guaranteed a WC game now. Fuck.

[EzraTank]

Ben, Conner, Grimble, coaching = goats.

Game ball to Juju and Boz.

[HollywoodSteel]

I didn’t get to see the game. All I know is that we had 1 yard to go and two downs to get it. If Conner can’t be trusted to get half a yard on each down, then Bell wins the argument and is worth every penny he wanted and guarantee to not be tagged that he asked for.

[lipps83]

The offense blew this one. Denver sucks at stopping the run...

So they pass all game.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

[Iron Steeler]

Steelers won today, they beat themselves.

[Shoes]

Goats: Grimble, McDonald, both missed TD's, Ben and Conner get one also.

[Neversatisfied]

I'd like to see Dobbs or Rudolph in a Road game, seriously.
Game ball to The offensive line
Goats - Ben, the secondary

[Lady Steel]

Game balls to JuJu, Boswell and Switzer.

Ben is not a goat.

#SorryNotSorry

[Craic]

The offense blew this one. Denver sucks at stopping the run...

So they pass all game.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

That wasn't the issue at all. Steelers walked up and down the field on the defense. It was a brilliant gameplan that dominated the defense. The problem was the players simply couldn't hang on to the ball and Ben had problems throwing the ball to the wrong jersey.

[pczach]

I'd like to see Dobbs or Rudolph in a Road game, seriously.
Game ball to The offensive line
Goats - Ben, the secondary


I know.....15-2-1 in his last 18 road games calls for a benching.

[Craic]

I'd like to see Dobbs or Rudolph in a Road game, seriously.
Game ball to The offensive line
Goats - Ben, the secondary

Huh? Seeing as this is the first road game Ben lost this year, why would you want to see him benched in a road game? That makes absolutely no sense.

[Mojouw]

That wasn't the issue at all. Steelers walked up and down the field on the defense. It was a brilliant gameplan that dominated the defense. The problem was the players simply couldn't hang on to the ball and Ben had problems throwing the ball to the wrong jersey.

Yup. We're in for a week plus of dumb narratives about coaching and gameplan. Minus 4 I think in turnovers is all that matters. Should've been at least a 6 point victory.

[st33lersguy]

Juju gets the game ball. single-handedly kept them in the game. Also Bos and AV for the TD and AB for being the fastest player to 800 receptions for a career. Goats: Defense made no turnovers and allowed big chunks on the ground game, Haden got burned by Manny Sanders too many times, Ben with twin boneheaded picks, Conner with the fumble, and Grimble with another fumble. Dumbasses

[Lady Steel]

They shoulda given Ben a 5th down. He woulda showed them! Oh yes, he would have! :chuckle:

Always a glass half full kinda girl. We'll get 'em next week.

[Iron Steeler]

Damn i wish we rann one more time.

[HollywoodSteel]

Now everyone here who doesn’t want a bye in the playoffs, because we didn’t need one in 2005 when we didn’t have to go through NE, can celebrate.

I won’t celebrate our odds getting way worse. We aren’t good enough to win just because we happen to be the best team on the field. We are capable of losing to any team in the playoffs. I happen to think the more games we have to play, especially on the road, the less chance of us happening to have the ball bounce our way in ADDITION to being the better team. But maybe I’m not a very good fan who welcomes the odds being against us. I don’t want to be sharpened by iron or anything else. I want to be in the best position to win.

[Craic]

Game Ball:
Coaches. Great plan. When it was executed it was unstoppable.

O line. They allowed a couple of sacks, but we're talking a rookie in his first game in the second half of the season.

JuJu. What a player.

EDIT: Forgot Berry. The punts were fantastic today.

Goats:
Conner. Last two weeks were not good. The look in his eyes on the bench really worries me. Mark my words. His career is at a crossroads right now. Either he puts this behind him, or he's going to start second guessing himself and will become a timid runner.

Grimble. Just, wow. And, no, there's nothing wrong with the rule. You fumble the ball into the endzone and out of bounds, it's the same as kicking the ball into the endzone and out of bounds. It's a rule that makes complete sense in light of the other rules.

HM. Ben. Not a true goat because he did drop over 400 yards on the Broncos and had some great plays. However, his final mistake cost us the tie game and OT.

[Devilsdancefloor]

Game ball = JUJU

Goat = pretty much everyone shit the be, so take your pick

[Mojouw]

Game Ball:
Coaches. Great plan. When it was executed it was unstoppable.

O line. They allowed a couple of sacks, but we're talking a rookie in his first game in the second half of the season.

JuJu. What a player.

Goats:
Conner. Last two weeks were not good. The look in his eyes on the bench really worries me. Mark my words. His career is at a crossroads right now. Either he puts this behind him, or he's going to start second guessing himself and will become a timid runner.

Grimble. Just, wow. And, no, there's nothing wrong with the rule. You fumble the ball into the endzone and out of bounds, it's the same as kicking the ball into the endzone and out of bounds. It's a rule that makes complete sense in light of the other rules.

HM. Ben. Not a true goat because he did drop over 400 yards on the Broncos and had some great plays. However, his final mistake cost us the tie game and OT.

The absolute stonewalling of Miller by essentially a random rookie developmental tackle is almost unbelievable. That part alone removes the coaching staff from almost all blame.

[Lady Steel]

HM. Ben. Not a true goat because he did drop over 400 yards on the Broncos and had some great plays. However, his final mistake cost us the tie game and OT.


Hmmm... There's no guarantee Bos would have made the XP for sure to tie up the game if we did get a TD.

[BlackAndGold]

This loss is on Ben. Two turnovers, multiple missed throws to wide open receivers.

[Neversatisfied]

Huh? Seeing as this is the first road game Ben lost this year, why would you want to see him benched in a road game? That makes absolutely no sense.

Ben has 10 TDs and 9 ints on the road, I'm not saying Ben is bad just not as good on the road

[HollywoodSteel]

That wasn't the issue at all. Steelers walked up and down the field on the defense. It was a brilliant gameplan that dominated the defense. The problem was the players simply couldn't hang on to the ball and Ben had problems throwing the ball to the wrong jersey.


That’s a VERY big problem.

I am no position to judge anything specific. I didn’t see the game and just checked on it here and there on my phone.

I can only judge 3rd and goal from the one. If you try to pass in that tight a window 2 out of 3 things that can happen are bad. And I think trusting the line and Conner to get half a yard on each of the next two downs is as close to a sure thing as we could ask for in this game. Or two QB sneaks even.

Half a yard on each down. That’s what we needed.

But maybe the play call was perfect. I didn’t see the situation. Maybe throwing into that window had the best odds. I’ll let you guys judge it.

[Shoes]

This loss is on Ben. Two turnovers, multiple missed throws to wide open receivers.

McDonald & Grimble dropped two TD, but I'm not disagreeing with you on Ben. :chuckle:

[st33lersguy]

The absolute stonewalling of Miller by essentially a random rookie developmental tackle is almost unbelievable. That part alone removes the coaching staff from almost all blame.

Munch is the best O-line coach in the game. If they paid him $10 mil a year to keep him around, I would call that a good price

[BlackAndGold]

McDonald & Grimble dropped two TD, but I'm not disagreeing with you on Ben. :chuckle:

It was a shit show.

The rule of fumbling in the end zone equaling a touchback needs to change. Such a dumb rule. Grimble was an idiot for not going for the easy TD anyway.

[Shoes]

It was a shit show.

The rule of fumbling in the end zone equaling a touchback needs to change. Such a dumb rule. Grimble was an idiot for not going for the easy TD anyway.
and he runs like he has a cinder block in his ass. Joe Haden has one in his also

[j-d-s]

We should have lost last week were it not for two interceptions called back by penalties (one them at the end of the game in the endzone). I expected the game-losing interception. Don't why Ben throws it into double coverage with the game on the line.

[lipps83]

That wasn't the issue at all. Steelers walked up and down the field on the defense. It was a brilliant gameplan that dominated the defense. The problem was the players simply couldn't hang on to the ball and Ben had problems throwing the ball to the wrong jersey.

I didn't realize Ben, Grimble and Conner played defense.

Moving the ball up and down at will without really mixing it up (in my book being one dimensional is not brilliant despite how effective that one dimension might be) net how many points per turnover?

Special teams score just as many TD's as this brilliant juggernaut offense did today.

[Craic]

McDonald & Grimble dropped two TD, but I'm not disagreeing with you on Ben. :chuckle:

Ahh, I completely forgot about that.


It was a shit show.

The rule of fumbling in the end zone equaling a touchback needs to change. Such a dumb rule.

How do you figure that? It's one of the most consistent rules when it comes to the NFL rulebook. When a team puts the live ball in their opposing teams endzone without control (i.e. a punt, a kick, or a fumble) it's a touch back. It's one of the few rules the NFL has completely right. It is the exact same thing as if we kick the ball and recover it at the 1. It's a live ball and ours. However, if the kicking team player can't get to it and the ball bounces in the endzone and out of bounds, it's a touchback.

I can't see how that rule can be any more consistent.

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I didn't realize Ben, Grimble and Conner played defense.

Moving the ball up and down at will without really mixing it up (in my book being one dimensional is not brilliant despite how effective that one dimension might be) net how many points per turnover?

Special teams score just as many TD's as this brilliant juggernaut offense did today.

What?

You said the coaching sucked because the offense didn't run the ball. I explained the gameplanning was brilliant because we walked up and down the field on them and had three TDs that were gimmes had players executed. That's 21 points right there. Why in the world would you then turn around and want to run the ball when the game plan ALREADY had us set up for an easy win?

And come on, you're better than putting words in my mouth. I said the gameplanning was brilliant. Not the execution. So, come on, be honest with my posts, Lipps.

[HollywoodSteel]

The absolute stonewalling of Miller by essentially a random rookie developmental tackle is almost unbelievable. That part alone removes the coaching staff from almost all blame.

I don’t think you really believe that as a general principle. I’m not saying it isn’t a coaching achievement to accomplish this, but it was not the HC’s or OC’s achievement. Their job is to win the game, or maximize our odds of winning the game, if they are EVER in the position to make such a decision.

They are paid to get that right, no matter what other accomplishments were achieved during the game or who messed up prior. If the coaches coached a PERFECT game up until right before the last important decision, the coaches don’t get to pat themselves on the back and call it a day. That last decision is ABSOLUTELY what they should be judged by.

They don’t give trophies for getting it all right up until the game deciding play.

That would be like saying Ben can’t be judged by his last decision just because he had mostly done the things he’s supposed to do up until then.

That last decision is what separates wins from losses. It matters. It should be judged accordingly.

I’m not saying anyone made the objectively wrong decision there. I didn’t see it.

All I’m saying is that it’s a very important decision and fans are right to judge the coaches and players by what they do in that situation.

Ben has done enough in his career to be worthy of the HOF. Yet I will still judge the stuff he still does. He gets that credit for sure... but it doesn’t releave him of all judgement going forward.

[Lady Steel]

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It was a fucked up play from the git-go.

[86WARD]

It would’ve been intercepted by the CB as well. Should’ve never thrown it.

[Lady Steel]

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[Iron Steeler]

Guys we dominated this game.

Dont let the score fool you. Broncos didn't win we beat ourselves

[DesertSteel]

It was a shit show.

The rule of fumbling in the end zone equaling a touchback needs to change. Such a dumb rule. Grimble was an idiot for not going for the easy TD anyway.
So that every rule can favor the offense??

[Steeler-in-west]

Gameball:

boswell, AV, Juju

Goats: Ben, Conner, Haden, sensenbaugh (wtf happened to the backfield) defense in general; maybe they were missing Tuitt in run defense, pass defense: maybe the high altitude got to them?

nothing is going come easy this season either, looks like we’re going to have to take down the patsies for playoff positioning after all

[lipps83]

What?

You said the coaching sucked because the offense didn't run the ball. I explained the gameplanning was brilliant because we walked up and down the field on them and had three TDs that were gimmes had players executed. That's 21 points right there. Why in the world would you then turn around and want to run the ball when the game plan ALREADY had us set up for an easy win?

And come on, you're better than putting words in my mouth. I said the gameplanning was brilliant. Not the execution. So, come on, be honest with my posts, Lipps.

No man, I am mostly talking about from the 3 yard line at the end of the game. You have two all pro's in Pouncey and DeCastro, and Foster is no slouch. You have a power back that is probably going to get a Pro Bowl nod this year.

They are all good players and what do you know? Denver blows stopping the run. Its like a gift that keeps on giving.

Why isn't running right at them behind your best guys ever an option? They had 4 downs, 2 minutes and a time out.

If you can't pick up 3 yards with all that, you don't deserve to score.

Why does all of the plays need to come out of the shotgun lately 2 yards from the goaline?

Its the basic fundamentals of the game, and sometimes we go so far away from that it is disgusting.

[Lady Steel]

1066868008134590466

[HollywoodSteel]

How do you figure that? It's one of the most consistent rules when it comes to the NFL rulebook. When a team puts the live ball in their opposing teams endzone without control (i.e. a punt, a kick, or a fumble) it's a touch back. It's one of the few rules the NFL has completely right. It is the exact same thing as if we kick the ball and recover it at the 1. It's a live ball and ours. However, if the kicking team player can't get to it and the ball bounces in the endzone and out of bounds, it's a touchback.

I can't see how that rule can be any more consistent.

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Consistency itself does not make it a good rule.

I’m not necessarily saying the rule SHOULD change, but I understand why it seems very different than touchbacks AFTER a change of possession.

If you fumble out of bounds at the one, you are not punished for it as if it was a fumbled and recovered by the other team. But if you get the ball into the end zone and it goes out of bounds there why are you suddenly punished SO MUCH more? The other team did not get a turnover. Why should they get such an awesome gift for doing nothing but allowing you to get even further before the ball goes out of bounds?

I think there is an argument to be made that no change of possession should take place, and that the offense should retain possession at the one yard line.

I’m not necessarily arguing for this, but it is a reasonable argument.

If you want consistency, why isn’t it a TB for the offense if they fumble it out of their own end zone? Why is it a safety? In every other situation if the ball goes out of bounds in their own end zone they get it as a TB. So what difference does it make how the ball went out of bounds? Why should the circumstances of who lossed it before it went out of bounds matter?

Loose ball, out of bounds, your end zone=TB for you. Right? That would be consistent.

Except that would be absurd for it to HELP you if you fumble out of your own end zone. Maybe how the ball got loose and went out of bounds in your end zone should ALWAYS matter. Maybe the rules should take the nature of the circumstances into consideration even more. Maybe a team shouldn’t be punished SO MUCH MORE for fumbling it through the opposing team’s end zone than they would be for fumbling it out of bounds at the one.

Maybe :)

[Hawkman]

That wasn't the issue at all. Steelers walked up and down the field on the defense. It was a brilliant gameplan that dominated the defense. The problem was the players simply couldn't hang on to the ball and Ben had problems throwing the ball to the wrong jersey.

This....Grimble should have made that td.

[Lady Steel]

1066869962726359040

[Hawkman]

1066869962726359040

Yep....those were all Ben’s fault.

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Oh and the coaching staff made those gaffs

[Lady Steel]

1066869574585470976


Dumbass.

[NCSteeler]

No man, I am mostly talking about from the 3 yard line at the end of the game. You have two all pro's in Pouncey and DeCastro, and Foster is no slouch. You have a power back that is probably going to get a Pro Bowl nod this year.

They are all good players and what do you know? Denver blows stopping the run. Its like a gift that keeps on giving.

Why isn't running right at them behind your best guys ever an option? They had 4 downs, 2 minutes and a time out.

If you can't pick up 3 yards with all that, you don't deserve to score.

Why does all of the plays need to come out of the shotgun lately 2 yards from the goaline?

Its the basic fundamentals of the game, and sometimes we go so far away from that it is disgusting.Absolutely this. You can blame all the other BS fumbles INTs , but it was right there to be had a tie easy enough to get. But they called maybe the oddest F'd up play of the game. But alas we would have likely lost in OT, this team is just sloppy on the road, Ben throws passes he shouldn't too often just a bad showing

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[NCSteeler]

1066869574585470976


Dumbass.He's been reading Vanimal's press clippings

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[lipps83]

If you fumble out of bounds at the one, you are not punished for it as if it was a fumbled and recovered by the other team. But if you get the ball into the end zone and it goes out of bounds there why are you suddenly punished SO MUCH more? The other team did not get a turnover. Why should they get such an awesome gift for doing nothing but allowing you to get even further before the ball goes out of bounds?

The end zone is their zone and they are defending it. The end zone is theirs and you are trying, in best terms, take possession of it. The ball is placed where it goes out of bounds and given to the team that last had control. If the ball goes out of bounds in THEIR zone the ball becomes THEIRS because there is no one else to give the ball to.

Same rule is applied on kick-offs and punts, the only difference is a kick-off is considered a live ball and recoverable by anyone as it was never initially controlled.

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1066869574585470976


Dumbass.

Hahahah, well at least he is being honest.

[Dwinsgames]

Game Ball:
Coaches. Great plan. When it was executed it was unstoppable.

O line. They allowed a couple of sacks, but we're talking a rookie in his first game in the second half of the season.

JuJu. What a player.

EDIT: Forgot Berry. The punts were fantastic today.

Goats:
Conner. Last two weeks were not good. The look in his eyes on the bench really worries me. Mark my words. His career is at a crossroads right now. Either he puts this behind him, or he's going to start second guessing himself and will become a timid runner.

Grimble. Just, wow. And, no, there's nothing wrong with the rule. You fumble the ball into the endzone and out of bounds, it's the same as kicking the ball into the endzone and out of bounds. It's a rule that makes complete sense in light of the other rules.

HM. Ben. Not a true goat because he did drop over 400 yards on the Broncos and had some great plays. However, his final mistake cost us the tie game and OT.


I would argue the rule is fine , the call was botched

granted I missed it in real time and just seen 1 replay ( need to find it and look again ) but it looked to me like he broke the plane ... ran for 18 yards or whatever it was so is a runner , once you brake the plane the play is OVER TD Steelers ...

maybe the fan in me missed when it actually came out but again with 1 glance it was a score

[teegre]

Game ball: Me... for not soiling myself on JuJu’s TD.

Goat: My mom... for getting out of her seat right before Ben’s final INT.

[HollywoodSteel]

The end zone is their zone and they are defending it. The end zone is theirs and you are trying, in best terms, take possession of it. The ball is placed where it goes out of bounds and given to the team that last had control. If the ball goes out of bounds in THEIR zone the ball becomes THEIRS because there is no one else to give the ball to.

Same rule is applied on kick-offs and punts, the only difference is a kick-off is considered a live ball and recoverable by anyone as it was never initially controlled.

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Hahahah, well at least he is being honest.

A ball going out of bounds in “their” end zone does not always mean the same thing. If they are on offense and fumble out of “their” end zone it’s a safety.

Different circumstances produce different outcomes based on common sense.

And it is not actually “their” end zone than it is “their” one yard line or “their” side of the field. Those are just not literal terms of description. If we fumble on “their” one yard line, they don’t get possession unless they recover it inbounds. If a team fumbles it out of bounds, no change of possession happens. For that to suddenly be a different rule based on which side of the cone it bounces out of bounds DOES seem arbitrary.

The team who possessed it never lost possession of it to the other team. Possession is just handed to the other team under this weird circumstance.

I don’t necessarily HATE the rule, but there is a very reasonable argument against it.

When you kick off or punt you are changing possession already so the TB rule makes sense in those cases. Or how on an interception or fumble recovery results in a TB because a change of possession ALREADY happened. But it is weird that a change of possession is EVER awarded because the offense fumbled it out of bounds anywhere on the field.

[teegre]

Here’s what is not up for debate about that fumble...

Grimble was an idiot for trying to run over the defender (as opposed to cutting & easily scoring).

[BlackAndGold]

So that every rule can favor the offense??

Almost every rule does already...

Maybe I'm in the wrong thinking that but it's something I've always thought was dumb. Believe the Pats(think it was them) lost a game like that a few years ago and I thought it was laughable.

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Here’s what is not up for debate about that fumble...

Grimble was an idiot for trying to run over the defender (as opposed to cutting & easily scoring).

100%. Cost them the game.

[Craic]

No man, I am mostly talking about from the 3 yard line at the end of the game. You have two all pro's in Pouncey and DeCastro, and Foster is no slouch. You have a power back that is probably going to get a Pro Bowl nod this year.

They are all good players and what do you know? Denver blows stopping the run. Its like a gift that keeps on giving.

Why isn't running right at them behind your best guys ever an option? They had 4 downs, 2 minutes and a time out.

If you can't pick up 3 yards with all that, you don't deserve to score.

Why does all of the plays need to come out of the shotgun lately 2 yards from the goaline?

Its the basic fundamentals of the game, and sometimes we go so far away from that it is disgusting.
Ahh, that does change the discussion. Okay.

In the end, we live or die on Ben's arm. I think the axiom is "put the ball in the hands of your best player" in those situations, and that's what we did. I agree with you, however, that we should have ran it up the gut at least once. Preferably on first down. Then, line up the same way on second down in a play-action with Ben throwing it away if nothing was there.

Then again, I believe in the two-minute offense, the reigns are turned over to Ben because he's is our playmaker and I'd rather have him calling plays in those situations than spending time with them coming from the sidelines.

[Shoes]

McDonald laughing that he dropped a TD pass cost us the game also.

[teegre]

McDonald laughing that he dropped a TD pass cost us the game also

Boz hit AV for a TD... (so, it technically was a wash).

[NCSteeler]

Coaching sucked. I'm tired of it. The game plan was good . But the preparation was just lousy. From the get go these players were not coached up. This is the difference between great teams great coaches and perennial also rans. Steelers will have a hard time until the get coached up.


Tell me I'm wrong, tell me thier grown men, blah blah whatever. Great coaches in history prepared the players beyond the competition. Tomlin doesn't do that at all. This team is sloppy undisciplined

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[Shoes]

Boz hit AV for a TD... (so, it technically was a wash).

He still dropped it. Can't count your kicker and LT to put up TD's

[Craic]

Coaching sucked. I'm tired of it. The game plan was good . But the preparation was just lousy. From the get go these players were not coached up. This is the difference between great teams great coaches and perennial also rans. Steelers will have a hard time until the get coached up.


Tell me I'm wrong, tell me thier grown men, blah blah whatever. Great coaches in history prepared the players beyond the competition. Tomlin doesn't do that at all. This team is sloppy undisciplined

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Huh?
Again, I don't get how this can be a coaching issue. Unless you expect the coaches to go out there and literally throw and catch the balls. The coaches put this team in the position to win. The pass plays and routes were getting WRs open. Ben was simply missing open players and when he did hit them, they were dropping balls. The one trick play with AB was perfectly executed with a wide open player and nothing but daylight, but AB put just a little too much on the pass. The defense played against one of the top run teams in the NFL and barely allowed 100 yards for the lead back, and the Broncos needed several turnovers to get that for their guy. And, after everything else. The fumbles, the INTs, they were still in a position to tie the game at the end. At some point, it stops being coaching and starts being the players fault. After all, the players do ​have to execute.

[teegre]

He still dropped it. Can't count your kicker and LT to put up TD's

Oh, it was an awful drop. Don’t get me wrong. I was livid.

But, in the end, it didn’t technically cost us any points.

[NCSteeler]

Huh?
Again, I don't get how this can be a coaching issue. Unless you expect the coaches to go out there and literally throw and catch the balls. The coaches put this team in the position to win. The pass plays and routes were getting WRs open. Ben was simply missing open players and when he did hit them, they were dropping balls. The one trick play with AB was perfectly executed with a wide open player and nothing but daylight, but AB put just a little too much on the pass. The defense played against one of the top run teams in the NFL and barely allowed 100 yards for the lead back, and the Broncos needed several turnovers to get that for their guy. And, after everything else. The fumbles, the INTs, they were still in a position to tie the game at the end. At some point, it stops being coaching and starts being the players fault. After all, the players do ​have to execute.So what your saying if the coordinator can draw up a good plan , the great coaches can just stay home on Sunday. BS coaches prepare thier players to make those plays in extreme circumstances

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[lipps83]

A ball going out of bounds in “their” end zone does not always mean the same thing. If they are on offense and fumble out of “their” end zone it’s a safety.

Different circumstances produce different outcomes based on common sense.

Think of it as an attacking (offense) unit and a defending (defense) unit. This is a game, so you have to use game logic. Common sense does not always apply to game logic. Their defense is on the field, and if the attacking unit (our offense) gives up control (they cannot get the ball back from enemy territory) in the defensive zone, it is a 'win' for the defense. It is a successful defense of the zone.

If the attacking unit fumbles out of their own defensive zone, it is a failure. They are penalized with a safety. That is the reality of it, but by your logic they should get the ball back at least to the one yard line.

These are not just balls going out of bounds. They are going out of bounds within designated, unshared zones.


And it is not actually “their” end zone than it is “their” one yard line or “their” side of the field. Those are just not literal terms of description. If we fumble on “their” one yard line, they don’t get possession unless they recover it inbounds. If a team fumbles it out of bounds, no change of possession happens. For that to suddenly be a different rule based on which side of the cone it bounces out of bounds DOES seem arbitrary.

It is their end zone they are defending, not the entire field. It is like knights defending a castle from invaders. It is certainly "theirs". Their side of the field is 'their' land, but the castle is the prize. The land/field between both castles is shared by both territories. The castles are unshared and alone held by only one side.

It isn't just a field they are on throwing a ball around that has lines all over it. It is a game built on the same fundamentals of all games, that of attack/defend, that has been around since the dawn of time. Almost all sports utilize this as the grounds for development of the game.


The team who possessed it never lost possession of it to the other team. Possession is just handed to the other team under this weird circumstance.

I already covered that. It is a win for the defense. They successfully defended their zone. You can't just walk into the enemy castle to get your catapult back so you can try again.


When you kick off or punt you are changing possession already so the TB rule makes sense in those cases. Or how on an interception or fumble recovery results in a TB because a change of possession ALREADY happened. But it is weird that a change of possession is EVER awarded because the offense fumbled it out of bounds anywhere on the field.

Why do you think you punt after a safety and you don't kick-off? You are changing possession because the offense 'failed'. The offense failed completely in invading the other zone and gave up their own zone. Only a successful invasion produces a 'free' kick where the attacking unit is given another chance to invade again. It is a free kick because nobody had control of the ball after one side succeeded and the other failed. Both teams have a chance to attack from the free kick.

You don't have that on a punt. You are 'forced' to give up on your attack because you failed.

Hopefully this helps to clarify a bit.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

That wasn't the issue at all. Steelers walked up and down the field on the defense. It was a brilliant gameplan that dominated the defense. The problem was the players simply couldn't hang on to the ball and Ben had problems throwing the ball to the wrong jersey.

Really? I have issue with red zone playcalling. 1st down and you throw a fade to JuJu, who really isn't a big WR that is gonna high point the football?? Then 2nd down run from shotgun and 3rd down a fake give to Conner and a pass play with only one read, which Bradley Roby had covered if Ben didn't shot put it to a D lineman? Terrible series.

Best red zone series of calls was from Danny Smith today and not Randy Fichtner.

Still, the Ben clutch factor didn't look like much today as he threw almost as many INT than last week.

[teegre]

Game ball: Chukks Okorafor

Seriously.

(AV gets one, too... but, I wanted to highlight the rookie.)

[lipps83]

Ahh, that does change the discussion. Okay.

In the end, we live or die on Ben's arm. I think the axiom is "put the ball in the hands of your best player" in those situations, and that's what we did. I agree with you, however, that we should have ran it up the gut at least once. Preferably on first down. Then, line up the same way on second down in a play-action with Ben throwing it away if nothing was there.

Then again, I believe in the two-minute offense, the reigns are turned over to Ben because he's is our playmaker and I'd rather have him calling plays in those situations than spending time with them coming from the sidelines.

And I understand that. High risk, high reward. Ben is the guy, so yeah.

Me, I am old school in those kinds of situations. 2 all pros, a good back, a lot of time not too mention a timeout. I am running it 3 times straight ahead. Play action on another, maybe 2nd or 3rd, but never 1st or 4th.

To me, in those situations, you have a 50% chance that the guy is even going to catch the pass (he does or doesn't). Maybe a 5% chance of a fumble on a run.

I would also never call a fancy shmancy play like they did today. Not in that situation. Too much has to go right for that to work, and today it done got blowed up.

[86WARD]

Huh?
Again, I don't get how this can be a coaching issue. Unless you expect the coaches to go out there and literally throw and catch the balls. The coaches put this team in the position to win. The pass plays and routes were getting WRs open. Ben was simply missing open players and when he did hit them, they were dropping balls. The one trick play with AB was perfectly executed with a wide open player and nothing but daylight, but AB put just a little too much on the pass. The defense played against one of the top run teams in the NFL and barely allowed 100 yards for the lead back, and the Broncos needed several turnovers to get that for their guy. And, after everything else. The fumbles, the INTs, they were still in a position to tie the game at the end. At some point, it stops being coaching and starts being the players fault. After all, the players do ​have to execute.

Steelers defensive game plan has been awful. Major holes in it and not having Tuitt has nothing to do with it. Speed receivers, TEs down the seam, Anytging coming out of the backfield. All issues that have been repeatedly occurring week to week. This team has no answer for a RB or TE that sits down at the second level of the defense between the numbers and the hash marks. Every single one of those goes for a score or a big gain, McCaffrey, Fournette. Two TEs today. It’s a major issue that can be exploited by good teams. Not to mention the run stop game hasn’t been great...Tuitt alone isn’t going to totally fix that.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Game ball: Chukks Okorafor

Seriously.

(AV gets one, too... but, I wanted to highlight the rookie.)

Yes, I agree.

I mentioned in another thread that his 6'6" size, long arms and agile feet would be a good match for pass rushers like Miller and he got some help for sure. My main concern was his balance and technique on handling an inside counter move and he got beat on one, but it was a designed screen pass, so the kid I thought did very well.

On the goat side, Ben has to wear it for the INT's, and the defense got gashed in the run game I thought, so still missing Tuitt big time. But to get in the red zone a few times and needing your kicker to throw a TD to your OT, really isn't solid Red Zone play and I think Fichtner has to take a look at what his play selection was a bit closer.

[st33lersguy]

Really? I have issue with red zone playcalling. 1st down and you throw a fade to JuJu, who really isn't a big WR that is gonna high point the football?? Then 2nd down run from shotgun and 3rd down a fake give to Conner and a pass play with only one read, which Bradley Roby had covered if Ben didn't shot put it to a D lineman? Terrible series.

Best red zone series of calls was from Danny Smith today and not Randy Fichtner.

Still, the Ben clutch factor didn't look like much today as he threw almost as many INT than last week.

Agreed, run the ball, and stop throwing inside from inside the 5, that's breeding grounds for INTs

[Steeldude]

If I can give a game ball for a loss, mine goes to Ryan Switzer. He played his guts out.

If he would only learn how to catch with his hands.

[j-d-s]

Agreed, run the ball, and stop throwing inside from inside the 5, that's breeding grounds for INTs
We currently suffer from the "Tony Romo problem". The Cowboys for years relied heavily on Romo because he was such a great passer, but in the process abandoned the run, becoming one dimensional causing critical turnovers.

I really don't get why we passed so much @DEN, there is absolutely no reason, especially because their run defense is much worse than their pass defense, and we weren't behind much neither.

[Steeldude]

Where was Dupree? I guess he needs another 5 years to develop. I hope they give him a 5 year $45 million contract. You can't find that kind of production today. He just takes over games.

[HollywoodSteel]

Think of it as an attacking (offense) unit and a defending (defense) unit. This is a game, so you have to use game logic. Common sense does not always apply to game logic. Their defense is on the field, and if the attacking unit (our offense) gives up control (they cannot get the ball back from enemy territory) in the defensive zone, it is a 'win' for the defense. It is a successful defense of the zone.

If the attacking unit fumbles out of their own defensive zone, it is a failure. They are penalized with a safety. That is the reality of it, but by your logic they should get the ball back at least to the one yard line.

These are not just balls going out of bounds. They are going out of bounds within designated, unshared zones.



It is their end zone they are defending, not the entire field. It is like knights defending a castle from invaders. It is certainly "theirs". Their side of the field is 'their' land, but the castle is the prize. The land/field between both castles is shared by both territories. The castles are unshared and alone held by only one side.

It isn't just a field they are on throwing a ball around that has lines all over it. It is a game built on the same fundamentals of all games, that of attack/defend, that has been around since the dawn of time. Almost all sports utilize this as the grounds for development of the game.



I already covered that. It is a win for the defense. They successfully defended their zone. You can't just walk into the enemy castle to get your catapult back so you can try again.



Why do you think you punt after a safety and you don't kick-off? You are changing possession because the offense 'failed'. The offense failed completely in invading the other zone and gave up their own zone. Only a successful invasion produces a 'free' kick where the attacking unit is given another chance to invade again. It is a free kick because nobody had control of the ball after one side succeeded and the other failed. Both teams have a chance to attack from the free kick.

You don't have that on a punt. You are 'forced' to give up on your attack because you failed.

Hopefully this helps to clarify a bit.

I understand the rule as is, and don’t feel strongly about changing it. I’m just saying that it is somewhat arbitrary, and not based on consistent absolute principles.

The idea that fumbling out of bounds is an “offensive failure” is not a guiding principle of football. “Their” end zone is not a soccer net. It’s the place you want to get to. It’s just arbitrary to have a rule that possession changes when it bounces out of bounds in “their” end zone, rather than “their” one yard line.

They should only be awarded a TB in cases where possession was already theirs, like on a punt, kickoff, or ACTUAL turnover where they recover it in their end zone.

It’s just odd that they are gifted possession when the offense never gave up possession.

On a punt or kick off, if it bounces out of bounds at the one, it’s theirs. Bounces out in the end zone, it’s theirs. Bounces out on the five, it’s theirs. The already have implied possession before the ball hits the ground, so a bounce out of bounds anywhere on the field still has them retain possession, because possession is already theirs BEFORE the ball goes out of bounds.

All these terms about “ enemy territory” and such are you trying to retrofit a weird rule into a greater football principle that just doesn’t exist in the game.

An offense never loses possession because the ball bounces out of bounds. That is the overriding rule... that is being broken suddenly for some weird reason in the end zone.

There is probably a good, common sense, football reason for the rule. But if so, no one has yet articulated it into a smart football reason for possession to change hands in this particular circumstance.

[teegre]

On the goat side, Ben has to wear it for the INT's, and the defense got gashed in the run game I thought, so still missing Tuitt big time. But to get in the red zone a few times and needing your kicker to throw a TD to your OT, really isn't solid Red Zone play and I think Fichtner has to take a look at what his play selection was a bit closer.

For the first time all season, Fichtner got “cute”... as opposed to what he had done the first ten weeks: line up and play solid football.

#ghostsofToddHaley

[Craic]

So what your saying if the coordinator can draw up a good plan , the great coaches can just stay home on Sunday. BS coaches prepare thier players to make those plays in extreme circumstances

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Um... the coordinators ARE coaches. And no. They also have to call the game, which they did. They have to make adjustments, which they did. It is their job to get the right players in the right positions t make the right plays, which they did. What else do you want? The coaches to go throw wnd catch the ball as well?

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So what your saying if the coordinator can draw up a good plan , the great coaches can just stay home on Sunday. BS coaches prepare thier players to make those plays in extreme circumstances

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
Um... the coordinators ARE coaches. And no. They also have to call the game, which they did. They have to make adjustments, which they did. It is their job to get the right players in the right positions t make the right plays, which they did. What else do you want? The coaches to go throw wnd catch the ball as well?

[lipps83]

I understand the rule as is, and don’t feel strongly about changing it. I’m just saying that it is somewhat arbitrary, and not based on consistent absolute principles.

The idea that fumbling out of bounds is an “offensive failure” is not a guiding principle of football. “Their” end zone is not a soccer net. It’s the place you want to get to. It’s just arbitrary to have a rule that possession changes when it bounces out of bounds in “their” end zone, rather than “their” one yard line.

They should only be awarded a TB in cases where possession was already theirs, like on a punt, kickoff, or ACTUAL turnover where they recover it in their end zone.

It’s just odd that they are gifted possession when the offense never gave up possession.

The offense did give up possession by their own ineptitude. The 1 yard line is shared. The end zone is not. If they fumble out of bounds at the 1 and the defense never took control of the ball, the offense gets the ball back. If they fumble out of bounds in the end zone, they can't get the ball back because it is not shared. It is as simple as that. The offensive failure creates a 'win' for the defense.

If you are attacking an enemy country and drop your supplies behind enemy lines, should the enemy ignore your mistake and give you your supplies back so you can keep attacking them?


On a punt or kick off, if it bounces out of bounds at the one, it’s theirs. Bounces out in the end zone, it’s theirs. Bounces out on the five, it’s theirs. The already have implied possession before the ball hits the ground, so a bounce out of bounds anywhere on the field still has them retain possession, because possession is already theirs BEFORE the ball goes out of bounds

All these terms about “ enemy territory” and such are you trying to retrofit a weird rule into a greater football principle that just doesn’t exist in the game.

An offense never loses possession because the ball bounces out of bounds. That is the overriding rule... that is being broken suddenly for some weird reason in the end zone.

There is probably a good, common sense, football reason for the rule. But if so, no one has yet articulated it into a smart football reason for possession to change hands in this particular circumstance.

The offense does lose possession. You can't reward the offense for their own ineptitude (losing control into enemy territory).

The only problem with this rule is that just about every rule is geared to the offense, the ones which reward the defense for good play are so few and far between, that you have this one which is a perfect rule to reward good defensive play, and people are confused 'why can't the offense keep going?'.

I can't put this any more simply than 'field of play is shared' and 'end zone is not field of play and not shared'.

[NCSteeler]

And I understand that. High risk, high reward. Ben is the guy, so yeah.

Me, I am old school in those kinds of situations. 2 all pros, a good back, a lot of time not too mention a timeout. I am running it 3 times straight ahead. Play action on another, maybe 2nd or 3rd, but never 1st or 4th.

To me, in those situations, you have a 50% chance that the guy is even going to catch the pass (he does or doesn't). Maybe a 5% chance of a fumble on a run.

I would also never call a fancy shmancy play like they did today. Not in that situation. Too much has to go right for that to work, and today it done got blowed up.We used to line up same formation time and again and impose your will, one thing Cowher was pretty good at. If you had bad run defense you were going to get what up all day.

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[NCSteeler]

Um... the coordinators ARE coaches. And no. They also have to call the game, which they did. They have to make adjustments, which they did. It is their job to get the right players in the right positions t make the right plays, which they did. What else do you want? The coaches to go throw wnd catch the ball as well?

- - - Updated - - -


Um... the coordinators ARE coaches. And no. They also have to call the game, which they did. They have to make adjustments, which they did. It is their job to get the right players in the right positions t make the right plays, which they did. What else do you want? The coaches to go throw wnd catch the ball as well?So the coaches take no responsibility for the players mental state ? Showing up prepared for situations and playing well. I thought all these years that was kind of the head coaches job to prepare his team for competition. Guess we can get all those coaches out of the HOF, turns out he just had players that played better.

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[Craic]

So the coaches take no responsibility for the players mental state ? Showing up prepared for situations and playing well. I thought all these years that was kind of the head coaches job to prepare his team for competition. Guess we can get all those coaches out of the HOF, turns out he just had players that played better.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

Seems to me the coaches in the HOF are there more for X's and O's and the influence they had on the game. And, once again, the coaches do not control the players. This is more of a "you can lead the horse to water" situation. Do you really think Grimble's fumble is Tomlin's fault? What did Tomlin do or not do that caused him to fumble? What did Tomlin do or not do that caused Ben to throw two picks, the last one in the endzone at the end of the game? What did Tomlin do or not do that caused Conner to fumble the ball?

Honestly, I think there's a legitimate argument to be made for the third one. So I don't completely exonerate the coaches. However, on the large scale, I put the blame around 90 percent on the players here.

[DesertSteel]

McDonald laughing that he dropped a TD pass cost us the game also.
Yeah that ticked me off at the time.

[steelerdude15]

1066869574585470976


Dumbass.

I personally would bench him for the rest of the year because of this statement.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I personally would bench him for the rest of the year because of this statement.
Really...Why?

I like to see an offensive player with an aggressive mentality. I bet Steelers coaches and admin does too. Secure the football, run the defender over and score...like Jerome Bettis, Hines Ward, Franco Harris, Marc Breuner, Heath Miller, etc.

[steelerdude15]

Really...Why?

I like to see an offensive player with an aggressive mentality. I bet Steelers coaches and admin does too. Secure the football, run the defender over and score...like Jerome Bettis, Hines Ward, Franco Harris, Marc Breuner, Heath Miller, etc.

I understand that and I like to see offensive players play aggressive at times as well, but only when its warranted. He could have easily juked to the right and would have been in for a touchdown. Sometimes, its better to play smart than play aggressive.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Yeah that ticked me off at the time.

He could either dwell on it or laugh it off and move on. I wasn't bothered by the laughing it off in disbelief. I just saw another case where Vance McDonald dropped a pass and got injured during the game. I'm impressed that he lasted this long in the season to revert back to what he has done his entire career.

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I understand that and I like to see offensive players play aggressive at times as well, but only when its warranted. He could have easily juked to the right and would have been in for a touchdown. Sometimes, its better to play smart than play aggressive.
Still, you said you would bench a football player for being too aggressive?? That makes no sense to me at all.

Grimble is not a small man, he isn't a 190 lb WR that needs to or should dance around contact. I have no problem with what he did, other than he didn't secure the football well enough.

[steelerdude15]

He could either dwell on it or laugh it off and move on. I wasn't bothered by the laughing it off in disbelief. I just saw another case where Vance McDonald dropped a pass and got injured during the game. I'm impressed that he lasted this long in the season to revert back to what he has done his entire career.

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Still, you said you would bench a football player for being too aggressive?? That makes no sense to me at all.

Grimble is not a small man, he isn't a 190 lb WR that needs to or should dance around contact. I have no problem with what he did, other than he didn't secure the football well enough.

I would bench him because he didn't think and it hurt the team in the end. That's why.

[EzraTank]

Damn i wish we rann one more time.

They should have spread the field and pitched to Conner.

[Fire Goodell]

Grimble, that fumble into the end zone really set the tone for this game. We had no business losing this game but couldn't stop shooting ourselves in the foot. I can't say I'm surprised about the loss, this happens EVERY time the media starts talking about the Steelers as a SB contender. We only seem to do well as the underdogs

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I would bench him because he didn't think and it hurt the team in the end. That's why.

OK, thanks for clarification.

I'm still good with a 6'4" 260 lb guy trying to power his way into the endzone, rather than dance and cutback. I don't recall if he was trying to run over a safety or corner that he likely outweighed by 40+ lbs. He didn't secure the football well enough and that is the mistake IMO.

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They should have spread the field and pitched to Conner.

I like spreading the field, but I never like a powerful RB like Conner on a pitch or toss on the goal line. The O line from DeCastro to AV consists of 75% Pro Bowl caliber players and Ramon Foster......run from under center behind them, not slow developing shotgun read option type plays.

[steelerdude15]

OK, thanks for clarification.

I'm still good with a 6'4" 260 lb guy trying to power his way into the endzone, rather than dance and cutback. I don't recall if he was trying to run over a safety or corner that he likely outweighed by 40+ lbs. He didn't secure the football well enough and that is the mistake IMO.

No doubt about it. Maybe its a different outcome if he switched the ball from his right to his left hand or if he covered the ball with both hands.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

No doubt about it. Maybe its a different outcome if he switched the ball from his right to his left hand or if he covered the ball with both hands.

Yes, if he covers the ball with both hands and plows in, then he has a TD and its different, but he keeps it in his right hand directly into the oncoming tackler.

I still think there were so many other chances to: A- Run the football against a poor rushing defense, B- Call better plays than goal line fade to JuJu or fake-give and then shot put into end zone, C- McDonald, Conner, Washington, Ben to take better care of the football. It was a good all around team loss with many contributors.

[AtlantaDan]

Game balls - JuJu, Switzer, & Steve’s Corner Bar in Punta Cana where I watched the game with about 15 Steelers fans (along with a half-dozen hookers who knew their clientele and also cheered for the Black & Gold) after the worthless hotel “”sports bar” carried the CBS affiliate in Miami feed of Dolphins-Colts

Goats - Grimble (I would cut him after his postgame quote that he could have avoided the tackle on the touchback), Conner (the clock may have struck midnight in his dream season), Fichtner (or Ben?) play calling/execution on last series when Nix should have been brought in to help pound in the TD

[Fire Goodell]

Game balls - JuJu, Switzer, & Steve’s Corner Bar in Punta Cana where I watched the game with about 15 Steelers fans (along with a half-dozen hookers who knew their clientele and also cheered for the Black & Gold) after the worthless hotel “”sports bar” carried the CBS affiliate in Miami feed of Dolphins-Colts

Goats - Grimble (I would cut him after his postgame quote that he could have avoided the tackle on the touchback), Conner (the clock may have struck midnight in his dream season), Fichtner (or Ben?) play calling/execution on last series when Nix should have been brought in to help pound in the TD

Sounds like an awesome place, where was this? :chuckle:

[AtlantaDan]

Sounds like an awesome place, where was this? :chuckle:

Punta Cana DR

https://www.google.com/search?q=Steve%27s%20Corner%20Bar&tbm=

Was not planned until late afternoon when I frantically googled “Punta Cana Sunday Ticket”

Lousy ending but an all time Steelers viewing experience for me :chuckle:

[43Hitman]

Punta Cana DR

https://www.google.com/search?q=Steve%27s%20Corner%20Bar&tbm=

Was not planned until late afternoon when I frantically googled “Punta Cana Sunday Ticket”

Lousy ending but an all time Steelers viewing experience for me :chuckle:
Punta Cana is nice. I was there for a week a few years ago. I stayed at the Paradisus, very nice. I recommend royal services, gives you exclusive access to several bars and you get your own golf cart, which is fun for racing back to your room. :chuckle:

[NCSteeler]

Seems to me the coaches in the HOF are there more for X's and O's and the influence they had on the game. And, once again, the coaches do not control the players. This is more of a "you can lead the horse to water" situation. Do you really think Grimble's fumble is Tomlin's fault? What did Tomlin do or not do that caused him to fumble? What did Tomlin do or not do that caused Ben to throw two picks, the last one in the endzone at the end of the game? What did Tomlin do or not do that caused Conner to fumble the ball?

Honestly, I think there's a legitimate argument to be made for the third one. So I don't completely exonerate the coaches. However, on the large scale, I put the blame around 90 percent on the players here.You coach Conner to not do dumb stuff like leap when there is clearly no freaking reason, you coach grimble to take the easy TD not try and runs guy over to make espn. Some players in this team are way too invested in the highlight real instead of the win. I believe coaches can change that.

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[NCSteeler]

I would bench him because he didn't think and it hurt the team in the end. That's why.This is coaching, "he didn't think and it hurt the team"

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[DesertSteel]

I would bench him because he didn't think and it hurt the team in the end. That's why.
How do you bench a 3rd stringer??

[Steeldude]

How do you bench a 3rd stringer??

By keeping him on the bench.

[86WARD]

McDonald was put laughing that he dropped it. He was laughing how quickly the ball was in his face from Ben. Laughing at the situation, not the result.

[steelerdude15]

By keeping him on the bench.

This.