T.J Watt

[Edman]

He’s rounded out into quite a monster like his brother.

Watt is starting to get held and put in choke holds by linemen while rushing. Like a certain someone used to do (Won’t mention his name for obvious reasons). T.J is putting offenses on notice.

Let’s hope Dud can take advantage of Watt’s added attention, though I doubt it.

[GoSlash27]

You can mention Deebo. It's okay :D

[Fire Goodell]

He's turning into a complete player, last year I thought he lacked the strength to hold the edge or overpower tackles, but that doesn't seem to be the case this year. The scouting team nailed this pick

[st33lersguy]

Yep, turning into the dynamic player needed

[DesertSteel]

I’m seeing at least 15 sacks from this guy this year. His energy level reminds me of Clay Matthews. He was my pick a month before they drafted him. I hope he’s a Steeler for life.

[teegre]

You can mention Deebo. It's okay :D



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ot11DMJKhj8&app=desktop

[tube517]

You can mention Deebo. It's okay :D

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/9/9e/Deebo.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121102040812

[GoSlash27]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ot11DMJKhj8&app=desktop

teegre,
:heh: Seriously, tho'. Yeah, it ended with some bent feelings... but we shouldn't whitewash history or tiptoe around it. Deebo is high on the list of great Steelers linebackers and deserves gratitude for all he gave us over the years. Especially Lombardi #6. His falling- out with the organization was as much their fault as his and I have absolutely nothing but respect and admiration for the man.

And while we're on the topic of touchy subjects...
Edman,
You know that you're among friends here, right? If there's anything you feel you need to share, this is a safe space. We will support you and not judge.
I'll just come out and say what I believe we're all thinking but are afraid to say it: I think you may be a Steeler fan. Even more so than many self-proclaimed "Steeler fans".
Perhaps I'm wrong, or perhaps I'm right and you've sensed it for a while now. Either way, it's cool with us. You need to be who you are, so if you *are* a Steeler fan... I think it's high time you come to grips with that and accept it. :hug:

[HollywoodSteel]

teegre,
:heh: Seriously, tho'. Yeah, it ended with some bent feelings... but we shouldn't whitewash history or tiptoe around it. Deebo is high on the list of great Steelers linebackers and deserves gratitude for all he gave us over the years. Especially Lombardi #6. His falling- out with the organization was as much their fault as his and I have absolutely nothing but respect and admiration for the man.

And while we're on the topic of touchy subjects...
Edman,
You know that you're among friends here, right? If there's anything you feel you need to share, this is a safe space. We will support you and not judge.
I'll just come out and say what I believe we're all thinking but are afraid to say it: I think you may be a Steeler fan. Even more so than many self-proclaimed "Steeler fans".
Perhaps I'm wrong, or perhaps I'm right and you've sensed it for a while now. Either way, it's cool with us. You need to be who you are, so if you *are* a Steeler fan... I think it's high time you come to grips with that and accept it. :hug:


I totally agree about Harrison.

I try not to think about how it ended. Yes he always walked his own path and wasn’t concerned about what anyone else thought of him. He certainly handled it badly at the end, but he wanted to play football... not just collect a paycheck.

At the end of the day the Silverback was a Pittsburgh Steeler through and through. He will always be one of my all time favorites.

[Craic]

He’s rounded out into quite a monster like his brother.

Watt is starting to get held and put in choke holds by linemen while rushing. Like a certain someone used to do (Won’t mention his name for obvious reasons). T.J is putting offenses on notice.

Let’s hope Dud can take advantage of Watt’s added attention, though I doubt it.

?? Bud Dupree is having a good year. He's tied for fourth among all linebackers for hitting the QB. he's 48th in sacks, but that number has to be taken in light of the fact we have three other players higher than him with one player half a sack out of third place and the other two are half a sack or a full sack above him. As for LBs, he's tied for tenth most sacks for LBs in the NFL. And, we have one of those LBs on our team as well. Tackles for loss? He's 40th total (note, only two more and he's cut that in half, that is, 19th. So it's very close). Moreover, he's 12-15th (depending on how you count DE/LBs) for linebackers. In other words, at least half the teams in the NFL and more likely quite a bit more than that have a second linebacker with less tackles for loss.

Look, I know we were all disappointed in Bud in the past. However, it's quite unfair to him to neglect what he's doing this year. Is he going to rise to a superb linebacker we all hoped he'd be when drafted? Probably not. But, he's playing at an above average level statistically for a second linebacker, which is what he is.

[DesertSteel]

Craic, I don’t disagree with anything you wrote. That said, what kind of numbers would you offer to extend him?

[HollywoodSteel]

Not everyone agrees...

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-steelers-t-j-watt-bud-dupree-arent-having-the-career-years-you-think-theyre-having

http://https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-steelers-t-j-watt-bud-dupree-arent-having-the-career-years-you-think-theyre-having (https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-steelers-t-j-watt-bud-dupree-arent-having-the-career-years-you-think-theyre-having)

[Edman]

Not everyone agrees...

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-steelers-t-j-watt-bud-dupree-arent-having-the-career-years-you-think-theyre-having

http://https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-steelers-t-j-watt-bud-dupree-arent-having-the-career-years-you-think-theyre-having (https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-steelers-t-j-watt-bud-dupree-arent-having-the-career-years-you-think-theyre-having)

I'll spare everyone the article.

"Dong Sacks".

[Fire Goodell]

TJ DongWatt the winged god of linebacker coverage

[Butch]

Wow so it's scheme who'ld a thunk it? I care less how they get the sacks and if it's scheme then so be it.

[Craic]

Craic, I don’t disagree with anything you wrote. That said, what kind of numbers would you offer to extend him?

Going rate for average LBs, plus incentives to push him to achieve. I'd also make it a shorter contract—say, three years in case he regresses with an option year if possible.

[Craic]

I'll spare everyone the article.

"Dong Sacks".
:chuckle:


Wow so it's scheme who'ld a thunk it? I care less how they get the sacks and if it's scheme then so be it.

No doubt. Yes, they make sense in what they say. Yes, it should be taken into consideration when debating the LBs and contracts. However, I disagree with discounting coverage sacks or pursuit sacks. it take a LB with a motor, and one that doesn't quit to get such sacks. Moreover, when the scheme has changed so the DL is supposed to get sacks now, it leaves the OLBs specifically in the role of cleanup sacks. What this means, then, is that they and the coaches are on the same page and are doing it right. In the end, I absolutely agree with Edman. Who cares. They're getting sacks because of scheme. Great. That means scheme and player are positively matched.

It also means Keith Butler may be staying around for a while.

[pczach]

Not everyone agrees...

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-steelers-t-j-watt-bud-dupree-arent-having-the-career-years-you-think-theyre-having

http://https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-steelers-t-j-watt-bud-dupree-arent-having-the-career-years-you-think-theyre-having (https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-steelers-t-j-watt-bud-dupree-arent-having-the-career-years-you-think-theyre-having)



Wow....and entire article basically saying they're overrated, and they have all kinds of statistical bullshit to throw at you......and not one mention of double teams, getting chipped by tight ends and running backs, or make any mention of run defense, dropping into coverage, interceptions, forced fumbles....nothing.

So now these ass wipes are just judging edge rushers solely on statistical bullshit that they judge and they invent....what a surprise.

Watch the fucking games PFF. They have a secondary that has struggled with coverage, and they are now getting consistent pressure rushing just four.

When Watt comes off the edge and dominates the OT and the RB that comes over to help like he did several times in this game alone scheme has nothing to do with it...….nothing.​

[cold-hard-steel]

What is a "dong sack"anyway? The sack under a dong right?:chuckle:

[st33lersguy]

What is a "dong sack"anyway? The sack under a dong right?:chuckle:

Apparently it is a sack that is recorded on a stat sheet, but one that is not a REAL SACK because it came too easy to impress some guy with a keyboard and too much time on his hands or some shit like that

[teegre]

re: the PFF article

The author says that the scheme sets Watt up to get sacks... but, he only “earned” a few of his sacks. What is odd is that the author also points out that Watt gets a sack on 3 out of every 10 pass-rush attempts (30%), while the NFL average is only 14%.

Uh... :huh:

[Drazo85]

What about holding no calls? Did they count them. Don't think so.

Послато са Mi A1 уз помоћ Тапатока

[Shoes]

What about holding no calls? Did they count them. Don't think so.

Послато са Mi A1 уз помоћ Тапатока

Watt has held on nearly every play of the Jags game.

[Steeldude]

Apparently it is a sack that is recorded on a stat sheet, but one that is not a REAL SACK because it came too easy to impress some guy with a keyboard and too much time on his hands or some shit like that

It's basically an unblocked sack. A sack any player in the NFL can make.

An unblocked sack will never impress me. It should never impress anyone.

[GoSlash27]

It's basically an unblocked sack. A sack any player in the NFL can make.

An unblocked sack will never impress me. It should never impress anyone.

Unblocked sacks impress me. Sometimes I rewind just to see 'em again or look for them on Youtube 'cuz opposing QBs usually get lit up. :D

[Craic]

It's basically an unblocked sack. A sack any player in the NFL can make.

An unblocked sack will never impress me. It should never impress anyone.

Wait, so none of the sacks the Steelers have this year count? Because as we've seen, there are many NFL players that can make the same sacks. This is a good example as to why your standards for "good" is completely unrealistic. You want supermen rather than players who are willing to play in their scheme and can do everything the scheme is designed to give them. If the scheme demands they be quick enough to get to the QB unimpeded and not allow him to dump the ball off to the RB or hit a quick slant in a west-coast type offense, then why is that any-less worthwhile than any other contribution?

Honestly, it sounds as though you would prefer to have 11 individuals of super talent rather than 11 teammates that work hard enough to give each other opportunities and then be able to take advantage of them.

[Mojouw]

The PFF article is correct. If they wrote it solely about Bud Dupree this board would eat it up. But since it included the “good” 1st round OLB, people are upset.

The question that the article raises is whether or not it matters that many pressures and sacks come from blocking breakdowns. We don’t know because what is not addressed is whether or not the breakdowns are resulting from bad teams with players making poor decisions or the Steelers defensive schemes forcing teams into unwinnable choices.

For instance, maybe Dupree and TJ come unblocked sometimes because Butler’s scheme overloads a side and the offense does what they are coached to do and takes the inside guy first, leaving the outside rusher with a clear lane. Maybe it is on a stunt or a delayed blitz through an inside gap. In other words, if the defensive player is executing his assignment properly and that assignment results in the offensive blocking scheme breaking down, isn’t that a good result?

Taking it a step further, another interesting set of questions gets raised. What does a team want to do with its edge rushers? Perfect world they can get to the QB by just undressing OTs on the regular AND get their on scheme alone. But can scheme be enough? As say why not. Anyone really believe that the entire league got better at playing QB or offenses got better at scheming to make the game easier for their QBs? So why cant making the game easier for your pass rushers be a similar great coaching moment?

Maybe the article is actually about how Butler is great at designing rush packages that get at least one guy a free run.

[DesertSteel]

It might just be me, but I'd be happy if all of our defenders were running unblocked at the QB... I'm silly like that.

[polamalubeast]

I do not think our scheme on defense is great like that.

[Fire Goodell]

What is a "dong sack"anyway? The sack under a dong right?:chuckle:

Coverage sacks, OL forgot their assignment and defender came in untouched, beating a TE or backup tackle, QB slipped on the wet turf / aborted snap and fell on the ball.

Called dong sacks, named after Jason GilDong aka the Kong of Dong

But basically like someone above said, sacks that aren't impressive to some dork behind a keyboard lol

[teegre]

A couple of things...

1. I remember an article saying that AB wasn’t any good, because he had the fewest “uncontested” receptions of any starter in the NFL. What the article failed to acknowledge was that AB had juked and/or burned the DB so badly, that Yes he was indeed wide open.

#statslie

So... with Watt, is it scheme? is Watt dropping back into coverage and then rushing the passer when the OT has already engaged with another defender? had Watt set the OT up on the previous two rushes, and Watt did something different on that third rush that made the OT not engage with him???

2. Some people complain no matter what. Let us assume that Watt’s success is solely due to scheme. Okay. But, do certain people praise Butler/give Butler credit for that scheme? Nope... they just lambast Watt.

Belichick has made a career out of getting pressure through scheme. He rarely has an All Pro defender on his roster; Belichick does it by creating chaos (overloads, disguised rushes, etc). In turn, many people will praise Belichick for getting pressure via scheme... but, if a Steelers player gets a sack via scheme, not only are the coaches given no credit, the sack itself is seen as not actually counting.

3. When you have a great scheme AND a great talent, you end up with James Harrison, Greg Lloyd, and Joey Porter in their primes. And... maybe Watt, too.

[86WARD]

Going rate for average LBs, plus incentives to push him to achieve. I'd also make it a shorter contract—say, three years in case he regresses with an option year if possible.

I would not be opposed to that. I’d like to see a contract that would also be a high end deal for a back up in case that were something that were to happen if/when they find better talent on that side.

[pczach]

A couple of things...

1. I remember an article saying that AB wasn’t any good, because he had the fewest “uncontested” receptions of any starter in the NFL. What the article failed to acknowledge was that AB had juked and/or burned the DB so badly, that Yes he was indeed wide open.

#statslie

So... with Watt, is it scheme? is Watt dropping back into coverage and then rushing the passer when the OT has already engaged with another defender? had Watt set the OT up on the previous two rushes, and Watt did something different on that third rush that made the OT not engage with him???

2. Some people complain no matter what. Let us assume that Watt’s success is solely due to scheme. Okay. But, do certain people praise Butler/give Butler credit for that scheme? Nope... they just lambast Watt.

Belichick has made a career out of getting pressure through scheme. He rarely has an All Pro defender on his roster; Belichick does it by creating chaos (overloads, disguised rushes, etc). In turn, many people will praise Belichick for getting pressure via scheme... but, if a Steelers player gets a sack via scheme, not only are the coaches given no credit, the sack itself is seen as not actually counting.

3. When you have a great scheme AND a great talent, you end up with James Harrison, Greg Lloyd, and Joey Porter in their primes. And... maybe Watt, too.




I agree with everything you say here, but it's even worse than that.

This author is saying that these guys aren't nearly as good as their stats say they are, but he fails to explain what is really going on. Of course there are plays where scheme creates the pressure that these OLB's get. What the author fails to mention is that the LB's got some of those unblocked sacks and pressures early in the season. The defense has been rushing just four much more often as the season has progressed. When you rush four, there is no scheme. They are just lining up and attacking the quarterback. There are 5 offensive linemen against 4 pass rushers. At that point the offense can keep a back in to chip, or have a TE stay in to double team a defender, or to just give the outside rusher a quick hit to try to take away the outside rush. Of course they can run stunts, but the OL has the numbers to handle that. This isn't something unique to the Steelers.

As the season has progressed, the OLB's are getting more pressure while using less scheme and blitzes. It allows more defenders to drop into coverage. The defense has been improving because the pass rush has been so effective with just four rushing.

To not mention that in the article is pure horseshit. If this guy has been doing any real analysis, he would have brought that up. Oh....that's right....he can't bring that up because that would destroy everything he says in the article. It's exactly the opposite of what he says. Both OLB's are creating more pressure with less scheme as the year is going on. Watt is now routinely drawing double teams.

The author seems to go out of his way to piss off Steeler fans to create more clickbait. I hate stuff like this. He claims that the production isn't sustainable, but everything about the reality of what is happening on the field says that both these guys are improving as the season goes on, and are becoming more effective pass rushers.

The article is total bullshit IMO. Complete and total clickbait based on pissing off Steelers fans. In case you didn't notice....this stuff strikes a nerve with me because it goes against what is really happening on the field. You can't write an article saying that their performance may fall off considerably, when they are both improving and beating OT's straight up and drawing double teams. It's a false claim based on information he is creating to paint a picture.

[DesertSteel]

I’m glad I didn’t read the article.

[Steeldude]

Wait, so none of the sacks the Steelers have this year count? Because as we've seen, there are many NFL players that can make the same sacks. This is a good example as to why your standards for "good" is completely unrealistic. You want supermen rather than players who are willing to play in their scheme and can do everything the scheme is designed to give them. If the scheme demands they be quick enough to get to the QB unimpeded and not allow him to dump the ball off to the RB or hit a quick slant in a west-coast type offense, then why is that any-less worthwhile than any other contribution?

Honestly, it sounds as though you would prefer to have 11 individuals of super talent rather than 11 teammates that work hard enough to give each other opportunities and then be able to take advantage of them.

Did I say or even remotely imply the Steelers' sacks did not count?

I get it, you like average to below average players and then pay them large contracts. When they screw up you defend them with any insane excuse you can come up with.

Am I playing this game correctly?

[Craic]

Did I say or even remotely imply the Steelers' sacks did not count?

I get it, you like average to below average players and then pay them large contracts. When they screw up you defend them with any insane excuse you can come up with.

Am I playing this game correctly?
Nope, not correctly at all.

You stated their sacks didn't count because it's sacks they're "expected" to get as an NFL player. In other words, "any NFL player" should get those sacks. My point is that in the Steelers method of defense, sacks are because of scheme and very few if any are based purely on personal effort. It's about forcing a QB to step up into the pocket so the linemen can clean up. Or about covering well enough downfield so the linemen can get a coverage sack, or about the lineman taking on too many blockers so the OLBs get a free shot at the QB. Or stunting so the OLine is confused and the LBs get a free shot at the QB.

According to your post, none of those sacks count because any NFL player should be able to make those plays. They're "Dong" sacks.

[Steeldude]

Nope, not correctly at all.

You stated their sacks didn't count because it's sacks they're "expected" to get as an NFL player. In other words, "any NFL player" should get those sacks. My point is that in the Steelers method of defense, sacks are because of scheme and very few if any are based purely on personal effort. It's about forcing a QB to step up into the pocket so the linemen can clean up. Or about covering well enough downfield so the linemen can get a coverage sack, or about the lineman taking on too many blockers so the OLBs get a free shot at the QB. Or stunting so the OLine is confused and the LBs get a free shot at the QB.

According to your post, none of those sacks count because any NFL player should be able to make those plays. They're "Dong" sacks.

Here is what I said,
It's basically an unblocked sack. A sack any player in the NFL can make.

An unblocked sack will never impress me. It should never impress anyone.


Again, copy/paste where I said the sacks did not count. I will be waiting.

[DesertSteel]

I get it, you like players not named James Harrison and then pay them large contracts. When they screw up you defend them with any insane excuse you can come up with.

FIFY