Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

[polamalubeast]

For the past five years, the Pittsburgh Steelers have been seeking a pair of bookend linebackers to bolster the defense. They have been missing the pressure they used to get from legendary pairs like Greg Lloyd/Kevin Greene, and James Harrison/Joey Porter. The more pressure the outside linebackers get, the easier it is on the secondary.

Well, it appears the Steelers have their next pair of pass rushers in T.J. Watt and Bud Dupree. All it took was a position switch. Often labled a bust when playing on the right side, Dupree showed flashes of his potential. A switch to his natural side has brought his abilities to the forefront.

read more

https://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2018/11/13/bud-dupree-and-t-j-watt-making-a-huge-impact-on-defense/

[Mojouw]

So they just have to switch sides and Artie Burns plays better, right, right,?

[ETL]

So who’s the Einstein on defense that said - let’s make him play his “unnatural” position and see how he does

[Shoes]

So who’s the Einstein on defense that said - let’s make him play his “unnatural” position and see how he does


it couldn't be a coach.

[lipps83]

So who’s the Einstein on defense that said - let’s make him play his “unnatural” position and see how he does

Sounds like a Lebeau move.

Then, when it doesn't work out everyone blames the player.

When it does work out, everyone calls the coach a genius.

Has there ever been a bigger fraud in Pittsburgh sports than Lebeau? I guess we will never know......

[Steeldude]

What is the context of each sack or pressure?

Weren't there people on here saying it's impossible for them to switch sides?

So far Dupree hasn't shown much worthy of re-signing him.

[Mojouw]

So who’s the Einstein on defense that said - let’s make him play his “unnatural” position and see how he does

James Harrison.

[Shoes]

James Harrison.

But they still put Watt in Harrison’s position and Bud on the other side.

[Mojouw]

But they still put Watt in Harrison’s position and Bud on the other side.

Maybe I'm confusing myself. But when Dupree was drafted they switched him because Harrison wasn't moving. Then they put Watt in Harrison's old spot to protect him from LT in his rookie year.

I'm not saying it was a good idea. I'm just saying that there were actual reasons for the decisions rather than "Duhhrrrr" which is pretty quickly where this thread was going.

Plus, I was being a smart ass.

[Shoes]

Maybe I'm confusing myself. But when Dupree was drafted they switched him because Harrison wasn't moving. Then they put Watt in Harrison's old spot to protect him from LT in his rookie year.

I'm not saying it was a good idea. I'm just saying that there were actual reasons for the decisions rather than "Duhhrrrr" which is pretty quickly where this thread was going.

Plus, I was being a smart ass.

:lol:

[teegre]

Maybe I'm confusing myself. But when Dupree was drafted they switched him because Harrison wasn't moving.

Yep... because, Harrison could not play on the other side (best exemplified by not being able to beat out Clark Haggans on that side, despite Haggans being extremely average).

[Dwinsgames]

1063226023205109761

[Born2Steel]

1063226023205109761

This is the exact reason he was moved. I would rather have 2 guys that can both consistently play well vs LTs but we don't. Bud is producing is the point of it. I hope he destroys(who does that say?) Josh Walker this Sunday. This LB corp is not the most talented group we have seen here. But they are playing well together right now. I sincerely hope they continue to do so.

[Steeldude]

1063226023205109761

Story of his life. He does ok against poor/rookie talent or if he is unblocked. Hopefully he is gone next season.

[DesertSteel]

Story of his life. He does ok against poor/rookie talent or if he is unblocked. Hopefully he is gone next season.
Definitely need to bring back Harrison.

[pczach]

Definitely need to bring back Harrison.




https://media.giphy.com/media/3o6nUTZTCpXozBYDQY/giphy.gif

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

This is the exact reason he was moved. I would rather have 2 guys that can both consistently play well vs LTs but we don't. Bud is producing is the point of it. I hope he destroys(who does that say?) Josh Walker this Sunday. This LB corp is not the most talented group we have seen here. But they are playing well together right now. I sincerely hope they continue to do so.

I agree with you. So one question I have for this upcoming draft......If there is an ILB and OLB that can rush the passer available at #32, what one do the Steelers pick? Should they prioritize one over the other?

[Mojouw]

Ok. So all the talk of pass rushers that can beat LT or consistently win their match-ups got me interested. Who are "premier" guys at OLB getting their sacks against? Are they routinely beating "good to great LT"?

Here is 2018 Khalil Mack:











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QBHits


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2018-09-09 (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201809090gnb.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)
1

CHI (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/chi/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

@

GNB (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

L 23-24 (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201809090gnb.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

1.0

0

1





2018-09-17 (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201809170chi.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)
2

CHI (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/chi/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)


SEA (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

W 24-17 (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201809170chi.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

1.0

0

1





2018-09-23 (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201809230crd.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)
3

CHI (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/chi/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

@

ARI (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/crd/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

W 16-14 (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201809230crd.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

2.0

3

1





2018-09-30 (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201809300chi.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)
4

CHI (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/chi/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)


TAM (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/tam/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

W 48-10 (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201809300chi.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

1.0

1

1





2018-10-14 (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201810140mia.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)
6

CHI (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/chi/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

@

MIA (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

L 28-31 (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201810140mia.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

0.0

0

0





2018-10-21 (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201810210chi.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)
7

CHI (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/chi/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)


NWE (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

L 31-38 (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201810210chi.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

0.0

0

0





2018-11-11 (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201811110chi.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)
10

CHI (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/chi/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)


DET (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/det/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

W 34-22 (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201811110chi.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

2.0

2

0




4 of his 7 sacks have come against Arizona who start DJ Humphries and Andre Smith at OT and Detroit who rolls out Rick Wagner and Taylor Decker. Those dudes are not good. I mean Detroit;s line hasn't blocked air real well this year, let alone pass rushers. Seattle's line is "meh" and so is Tampa's. He got GB in the opener - that line is legit. So, not trying to minimize Mack, but he is beating up on bad lines and treading water against good or better O-lines.

[Fire Goodell]

So, trade Dupree for 2 first round picks? :chuckle:

[Mojouw]

I looked at JJ Watt as well. Quick Answer he beats everyone. I looked at Von Miller and he is more like Mack - abusing anything less than the best lines/teams he faces and treading water against the good ones.

2018 Danielle Hunter and this one hurts...










Tack


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Opp


Sk


QBHits


FF


1


SFO (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sfo/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

1.0

1

0



2

@

GNB (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

1.0

1

0



3


BUF (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

1.0

1

0



4

@

LAR (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/ram/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

1.0

1

0



5

@

PHI (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/phi/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

1.0

2

0



6


ARI (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/crd/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

2.0

3

0



7

@

NYJ (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyj/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

1.0

2

0



8


NOR (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nor/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

0.0

0

0



9


DET (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/det/2018.htm?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)

3.5

4

0




Guy is just running through everyone! Except the best offense he faced, New Orleans.

So. Dupree is not in the "elite" category with Miller and Mack. He isn't in the "not getting stopped ever" with Hunter and Watt. But he seems to be settling into the "above average dangerous" category that a forms the second tier of pass rushers across the league. In other words, I will abuse any mismatches or blocking scheme mistakes put in front of me. Is it ideal? Nope. But there are very few guys across the NFL that are just lining up and clowning on high end LTs.

A final note, I have no idea if this really works - because I'm not watching all these games. For instance, last night Fackrell for GB had like 3 sacks. They were all DONG sacks where Wilson held the ball for well over 4 seconds and Fackrell eventually brought him down. Despite Troy Aikman's effusive praise, Kyle Fackrell is not a terrifying pass rusher. He is an effective one. Which is what Dupree has settled in at for the first half of 2018. The question is whether he can harness his physical gifts to rise even higher?

[steelreserve]

Please please please please please please don't keep Dupree on the $10 million option. I can really see it heading that way and it's not going to work out to our benefit.

He's been "better" this year, but the bar was so low they practically had to dig a hole for it. He is settling in to low-journeyman-with-occasional-flashes level, and that's about what his potential is. A $4M or $5M player - but someone will value him at twice that on The Market because omg youth and potential. This is a case where we would be better off not overpaying. Fill the spot with an average player, not a stud. Draft someone in the middle rounds and see if we get lucky. We will not be much worse off if they fall flat.



I agree with you. So one question I have for this upcoming draft......If there is an ILB and OLB that can rush the passer available at #32, what one do the Steelers pick? Should they prioritize one over the other?

ILB and it's not even close. There are many ways to rush the passer, and we already do a decent job of that. A weak pass rush is not our problem.

On the other hand, the lack of speed and coverage ability at ILB has left a gaping hole in the middle of the defense that any competent QB can exploit whenever they choose to. The only way for us to compensate for that is to gamble. It might work in any one given game, but for consistently winning against high-level opponents, that's a fatal flaw. And beating a minimum of 3, maybe 4 of those opponents in a row is what we will need to do in order to win a championship. So without a solution to that, I don't like our odds.

Amping up the pass rush is just slightly increasing our odds on the gambling. But what we really need to do is address the root problem that causes the need for the gambling.

[Mojouw]

Please please please please please please don't keep Dupree on the $10 million option. I can really see it heading that way and it's not going to work out to our benefit.

He's been "better" this year, but the bar was so low they practically had to dig a hole for it. He is settling in to low-journeyman-with-occasional-flashes level, and that's about what his potential is. A $4M or $5M player - but someone will value him at twice that on The Market because omg youth and potential. This is a case where we would be better off not overpaying. Fill the spot with an average player, not a stud. Draft someone in the middle rounds and see if we get lucky. We will not be much worse off if they fall flat.




ILB and it's not even close. There are many ways to rush the passer, and we already do a decent job of that. A weak pass rush is not our problem.

On the other hand, the lack of speed and coverage ability at ILB has left a gaping hole in the middle of the defense that any competent QB can exploit whenever they choose to. The only way for us to compensate for that is to gamble. It might work in any one given game, but for consistently winning against high-level opponents, that's a fatal flaw. And beating a minimum of 3, maybe 4 of those opponents in a row is what we will need to do in order to win a championship. So without a solution to that, I don't like our odds.

Amping up the pass rush is just slightly increasing our odds on the gambling. But what we really need to do is address the root problem that causes the need for the gambling.

It is "only" $9.2 million. Taking a look at similar EDGE players, Dupree's value comes in at $5 million on the low end and $11 million on the high end. So a range of guys from Malcom Smith to Nick Perry.

I think about right would be Jabaal Sheard at around 7-8.5 million per year. I know that sounds high, but I can not find a guy across the NFL that is on his second contract with 6-8 sacks a season that gets paid in the 3-5 million dollar range. Rookies that are outperforming their contracts or veterans who are on a third contract.

Hopefully if they want to keep him, they can "buy-out" Dupree's option and sign him to an extension that has an "out" at Year 2, 3, and 4. Then you can draft and develop competition.

[Steeldude]

Definitely need to bring back Harrison.

Better than Burns...I mean Dupree.

- - - Updated - - -


Please please please please please please don't keep Dupree on the $10 million option. I can really see it heading that way and it's not going to work out to our benefit.

He's been "better" this year, but the bar was so low they practically had to dig a hole for it. He is settling in to low-journeyman-with-occasional-flashes level, and that's about what his potential is. A $4M or $5M player - but someone will value him at twice that on The Market because omg youth and potential. This is a case where we would be better off not overpaying. Fill the spot with an average player, not a stud. Draft someone in the middle rounds and see if we get lucky. We will not be much worse off if they fall flat.




ILB and it's not even close. There are many ways to rush the passer, and we already do a decent job of that. A weak pass rush is not our problem.

On the other hand, the lack of speed and coverage ability at ILB has left a gaping hole in the middle of the defense that any competent QB can exploit whenever they choose to. The only way for us to compensate for that is to gamble. It might work in any one given game, but for consistently winning against high-level opponents, that's a fatal flaw. And beating a minimum of 3, maybe 4 of those opponents in a row is what we will need to do in order to win a championship. So without a solution to that, I don't like our odds.

Amping up the pass rush is just slightly increasing our odds on the gambling. But what we really need to do is address the root problem that causes the need for the gambling.

You have to let him develop. Give him another 5 years at least. (Yes, sarcasm)

[steelreserve]

It is "only" $9.2 million. Taking a look at similar EDGE players, Dupree's value comes in at $5 million on the low end and $11 million on the high end. So a range of guys from Malcom Smith to Nick Perry.

I think about right would be Jabaal Sheard at around 7-8.5 million per year. I know that sounds high, but I can not find a guy across the NFL that is on his second contract with 6-8 sacks a season that gets paid in the 3-5 million dollar range. Rookies that are outperforming their contracts or veterans who are on a third contract.

Hopefully if they want to keep him, they can "buy-out" Dupree's option and sign him to an extension that has an "out" at Year 2, 3, and 4. Then you can draft and develop competition.

I just don't think Dupree brings anything more to the table than a $5M journeyman. Like, you could plug almost anyone who is not universally, mind-numbingly bad into that position and not notice much difference - other people are what drive the pass rush on this team.

You don't need a young guy on his second contract, you don't need an established starter or someone who gets 6-8 sacks. A guy who got 3 sacks in limited playing time and is hoping to land somewhere he can try out for a bigger role, that will do just fine. That guy will probably get Dupree's stats and have Dupree's impact if he is plugged into the position.

I am not doubting you on his likely market valuation or comparable players, I hope that much is clear. Just that I think Dupree adds nothing special, but is likely going to command as much money as if he is doing something special, and that's a mistake if we pay it. We are not really stuck in a bind because there are "no better options" unless we have talked ourselves into it. There are a ton of better options, we just need to have a little faith that the world is not going to end if someone else is providing us with mediocre production at a mediocre price, instead of Dupree providing us with mediocre production at a premium price.

Who else can we get? Almost anyone.

[Mojouw]

I just don't think Dupree brings anything more to the table than a $5M journeyman. Like, you could plug almost anyone who is not universally, mind-numbingly bad into that position and not notice much difference - other people are what drive the pass rush on this team.

You don't need a young guy on his second contract, you don't need an established starter or someone who gets 6-8 sacks. A guy who got 3 sacks in limited playing time and is hoping to land somewhere he can try out for a bigger role, that will do just fine. That guy will probably get Dupree's stats and have Dupree's impact if he is plugged into the position.

I am not doubting you on his likely market valuation or comparable players, I hope that much is clear. Just that I think Dupree adds nothing special, but is likely going to command as much money as if he is doing something special, and that's a mistake if we pay it. We are not really stuck in a bind because there are "no better options" unless we have talked ourselves into it. There are a ton of better options, we just need to have a little faith that the world is not going to end if someone else is providing us with mediocre production at a mediocre price, instead of Dupree providing us with mediocre production at a premium price.

Who else can we get? Almost anyone.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I think I am getting this out of your last couple of posts:

1. Dupree is a 6-8 sack a year "meh" pass rusher.
2. You are willing to agree that the NFL market values that at 7-11 million dollars per year.
3. To equal Dupree's production the Steelers need to target a guy that is a veteran that has had limited playing time up until now and will reach that 6-8 sack level with increased playing time as the Steelers starting OLB. This player doesn't need to be an "expensive" 25-28 year old guy coming off a rookie deal or an "established name".

So that takes us into the tier of 3-5 million dollar pass rushers. The question becomes if anyone is comfortable with guys like Aaron Lynch, Cassius March, and Barkevious Mingo being the starter opposite TJ Watt. I know this isn't going to be popular, but I would argue those guys are significantly worse than Bud Dupree. I do not believe those players would equal Dupree's production on the Steelers. I mean they have that guy on the roster in Chickillo and he isn't able to pull off what you are describing.

I think they difference between us is that I have no problem paying the option as long as OTHER potential players are brought it. A draft pick or two and a lower cost veteran signing. I would have no problem with the Steelers going into the 2019 regular season with Watt/Dupree/Adyeni/Draft Pick/FA Signing and sending those guys out there in a rotation to amp up the pass rush. Then after the season, you pick the best 3 to retain and add another draft pick and FA dice roll and repeat the process.

The thing is, 9 million dollars against a rising 2019 cap and 6-8 sacks as an edge rusher is not mediocre production at a premium price. It is average production at a slightly above average price. The ONLY truly terrible option here for the Steelers is to sign Dupree to a 5 year extension that pays out 11-13 million dollars a year and has no escape hatch for the team until year 4 or something. That is Nick Perry's contract for GB and it is terrible.

[steelreserve]

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I think I am getting this out of your last couple of posts:

1. Dupree is a 6-8 sack a year "meh" pass rusher.
2. You are willing to agree that the NFL market values that at 7-11 million dollars per year.
3. To equal Dupree's production the Steelers need to target a guy that is a veteran that has had limited playing time up until now and will reach that 6-8 sack level with increased playing time as the Steelers starting OLB. This player doesn't need to be an "expensive" 25-28 year old guy coming off a rookie deal or an "established name".

So that takes us into the tier of 3-5 million dollar pass rushers. The question becomes if anyone is comfortable with guys like Aaron Lynch, Cassius March, and Barkevious Mingo being the starter opposite TJ Watt. I know this isn't going to be popular, but I would argue those guys are significantly worse than Bud Dupree. I do not believe those players would equal Dupree's production on the Steelers. I mean they have that guy on the roster in Chickillo and he isn't able to pull off what you are describing.

I think they difference between us is that I have no problem paying the option as long as OTHER potential players are brought it. A draft pick or two and a lower cost veteran signing. I would have no problem with the Steelers going into the 2019 regular season with Watt/Dupree/Adyeni/Draft Pick/FA Signing and sending those guys out there in a rotation to amp up the pass rush. Then after the season, you pick the best 3 to retain and add another draft pick and FA dice roll and repeat the process.

The thing is, 9 million dollars against a rising 2019 cap and 6-8 sacks as an edge rusher is not mediocre production at a premium price. It is average production at a slightly above average price. The ONLY truly terrible option here for the Steelers is to sign Dupree to a 5 year extension that pays out 11-13 million dollars a year and has no escape hatch for the team until year 4 or something. That is Nick Perry's contract for GB and it is terrible.


What I am arguing is that if you are a starter at OLB, 4-6 sacks is what you can expect just for showing up. That has little to do with anything, though. How much are you impacting the average play; how often are you disrupting what the offense is trying to do? 90 percent of the time you do that and don't even get a stat for it. That is what separates a good pass rusher from a mediocre one from a bad one; sack totals mean fuck all except to inflate the asking price of your next contract.

Dupree still hasn't done anything beyond be mediocre at best in that department. Chickillo hasn't done any better, fair enough. That doesn't mean Dupree is any good, or that anyone else will have trouble equaling his mediocre game impact. Sure, you pick a known below-average backup as an example of how difficult it is to find a replacement - how does that work? Everyone else is not going to be inadequate because Chickillo is below-average.

You want the answer, look no further than Bostic or VW. Neither is an impact player, neither does anything special by themselves. But either one is adequate if surrounded by the right kinds of players; the other players help them be successful. That's all we need at OLB, we have the other impact players for the pass rush. And the asking price for VW or Bostic talent at OLB sure doesn't start at $8-9 million per.

Those players exist. They are everywhere. It is just a matter of understanding the problem in front of us. And of course giving yourself more than one option. You will have your Chickillos who just aren't up to being a starter and wash out. That's why you have a journeyman FA and a mid/low draft pick. If neither one of those succeeds, then you are either really unlucky or really bad at this. But what is just as bad is locking yourself into a lame situation because you've convinced yourself that $10 million mediocrity is par for the course. That's just nonsense. If you are in a position where that's really an option being seriously considered, then you need to just throw everything out and start over.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

So who’s the Einstein on defense that said - let’s make him play his “unnatural” position and see how he does

Did anybody bother to look at what side Dupree played in college at Kentucky??

One hint. Its the same side he played his first few seasons as a Steeler until this season. He has just had somebody playing the other side for a few seasons. In college it was ZaDarius Smith who is now with the Ravens.

[ETL]

Did anybody bother to look at what side Dupree played in college at Kentucky??

One hint. Its the same side he played his first few seasons as a Steeler until this season. He has just had somebody playing the other side for a few seasons. In college it was ZaDarius Smith who is now with the Ravens.

So then what is the definition of a “natural” position ?

[pczach]

I can't believe people are writing off Dupree now. Let's see what he does the rest of the year. Right now, he's on pace for about 8 sacks.

What if Dupree balls out and ends with 10+ sacks. His first 4 games said no way. The last 4-5 say maybe.

If he finishes the year strong, then goes to the playoffs and makes a difference in the playoffs....who says he isn't worth the option?

I think it's time to talk about the what if's with Dupree based on what he does for the rest of the year....not make a definitive decision on his future with the team.

I know there was good reason to doubt him, but I don't agree with what you say about the types of players they need being everywhere. God knows the team has been trying to find talent at the position for years but failed miserably. They aren't that easy to find without emptying the vault. I think they have more talent now at the position than they have had at any time since before they drafted Jarvis Jones. Even Adeniyi and Adams appear to have real talent. At this point, the team can still look to pick up a great player at the position if the opportunity presents itself, but there is no guarantee that a "great" player will sign with the team for a reasonable amount of money. Bell should have taught everyone that this year.

Dominant pass rushers are about to start making over $20 million a year. That's a huge chunk of the cap. I think the sweet spot is if you can find a way to sign an up and coming player that hasn't reached his full potential yet, or maybe a guy that was playing out of scheme on another team for a good price. Having an OLB that can get you 10 sacks a year for $9.2 mil is a pretty good rate of return, whether anyone wants to believe it or not. It would also leave enough cap room to take care of other positions. There is always value in knowing what you have and what they can do. It's a known quantity.

All I'm saying is that Dupree is here and he is playing better. The team needs to see how he plays the rest of the year and so do we before any decisions are made.

[Mojouw]

What I am arguing is that if you are a starter at OLB, 4-6 sacks is what you can expect just for showing up. That has little to do with anything, though. How much are you impacting the average play; how often are you disrupting what the offense is trying to do? 90 percent of the time you do that and don't even get a stat for it. That is what separates a good pass rusher from a mediocre one from a bad one; sack totals mean fuck all except to inflate the asking price of your next contract.

Dupree still hasn't done anything beyond be mediocre at best in that department. Chickillo hasn't done any better, fair enough. That doesn't mean Dupree is any good, or that anyone else will have trouble equaling his mediocre game impact. Sure, you pick a known below-average backup as an example of how difficult it is to find a replacement - how does that work? Everyone else is not going to be inadequate because Chickillo is below-average.

You want the answer, look no further than Bostic or VW. Neither is an impact player, neither does anything special by themselves. But either one is adequate if surrounded by the right kinds of players; the other players help them be successful. That's all we need at OLB, we have the other impact players for the pass rush. And the asking price for VW or Bostic talent at OLB sure doesn't start at $8-9 million per.

Those players exist. They are everywhere. It is just a matter of understanding the problem in front of us. And of course giving yourself more than one option. You will have your Chickillos who just aren't up to being a starter and wash out. That's why you have a journeyman FA and a mid/low draft pick. If neither one of those succeeds, then you are either really unlucky or really bad at this. But what is just as bad is locking yourself into a lame situation because you've convinced yourself that $10 million mediocrity is par for the course. That's just nonsense. If you are in a position where that's really an option being seriously considered, then you need to just throw everything out and start over.

I'm still not sure what you are saying other than "Don't pay Bud Dupree another nickel come hell or high water."

Where are all these players that you argue exist everywhere that are disruptive 3-4 OLBs? I mean these guys don't exactly grow on trees. That is why they cost so darn much in FA, Chickillo still has a job (I mean we both just argued he was below average), and the Steelers draft 1-2 every year.

If they were so easy to find, wouldn't ideally Dupree be at least in a rotation and Chickilo off the roster? At the very least you would assume they would've went in to the regular season more than 3 deep at the position.

Here is the free agent list from last off-season: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/2018/all/edge/

I spent a bit looking at it and I can't seem to find all these effective players that are just laying around the NFL marketplace. All smart-ass remarks aside, there is ONE guy that fits the parameters you have outlined; 3-5 million in salary cap charge and a 2018 production of 6-8 sacks stepping into a starting role: Devon Kennard. One out of many dozen EDGE rushers and easily 2 dozen OLBs.

That is why I argue the 5th year option is only a bad thing if:

1. No serious attempt is made to bring in competition.
2. It leads to a multi-year extension with no team friendly escape clauses each year to guard against the "contract year" break-out phenomena.

Ideally, Dupree never plays on the 5th year option. They offer him a 4 year deal with say like $12 million up front (buys out his $9 million option + an incentive to sign) and then years 2, 3, and 4 are team friendly one-year options where Dupree has a low cap hit and no dead money. That way if a draft pick or FA pick-up can beat him out, you aren't on the hook for anything that matters.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

So then what is the definition of a “natural” position ?

Not sure. I guess the guy that wrote the article must have some kind of a definition of "natural" position. Below is his bio and with that kind of background and access to a keyboard, it must be as accurate as Wikipedia.


Brian is originally from Johnstown, Pa and currently lives in Wheatfield, Indiana. He is a Steelworker at ArcelorMittal USA and is owner of Pittsburgh Sports Zone. Follow Brian on Twitter @Brian__HarkerSW

[steelreserve]

I'm still not sure what you are saying other than "Don't pay Bud Dupree another nickel come hell or high water."

Where are all these players that you argue exist everywhere that are disruptive 3-4 OLBs? I mean these guys don't exactly grow on trees. That is why they cost so darn much in FA, Chickillo still has a job (I mean we both just argued he was below average), and the Steelers draft 1-2 every year.


I'm not arguing that effective / disruptive OLBs exist everywhere. I'm arguing that Dupree is NOT very effective or disruptive, and that those players exist everywhere. Mediocre players do grow on trees, and that's what we've got. So better to pay a little for one, than a lot for the one who we happen to have right now.



If they were so easy to find, wouldn't ideally Dupree be at least in a rotation and Chickilo off the roster? At the very least you would assume they would've went in to the regular season more than 3 deep at the position.

I think a lot of the problem is that we are just bad at finding and developing OLBs. Kind of like OL before Munchak, the high draft picks sort of muddle along with the talent they were drafted with - which is either enough to make it in the league or it isn't - and the middle and low round picks either become the Ryan Mundy of their position or never advance past special teams. Whereas with decent player development, the high picks mostly become starters and the middle picks become depth players who are effective.

The fact that we have more problems than usual at this position puts everything through the Jeff Reed lens of distortion, and we think effective replacements are scarce, and we think we're stuck but we're not. And a big difference here is that we're not even trying to replace someone who is productive. We're just trying to avoid finding someone who is extremely bad. We may even have that player on the roster (or on IR for the moment, at least). But we worry way too much.



That is why I argue the 5th year option is only a bad thing if:

1. No serious attempt is made to bring in competition.
2. It leads to a multi-year extension with no team friendly escape clauses each year to guard against the "contract year" break-out phenomena.

Ideally, Dupree never plays on the 5th year option. They offer him a 4 year deal with say like $12 million up front (buys out his $9 million option + an incentive to sign) and then years 2, 3, and 4 are team friendly one-year options where Dupree has a low cap hit and no dead money. That way if a draft pick or FA pick-up can beat him out, you aren't on the hook for anything that matters.

Unfortunately, one of the likely side effects of the option is that we will also go with scenario #1. And then that will put us in scenario #2 because we failed to give ourselves other valid options. And then it leads to:

3. No effort is made to address OLB because Dupree is "the guy," so we don't really draft or sign anyone of note until he has sucked for 2+ years on his new contract, which means we suffer sub-par play all the way through 4-5 years from now.
4. Being a big contract, it is restructured almost immediately and we are locked into a Woodley situation with unbearable cap hits and dead money, only the player was never any good to deserve the contract in the first place.

We narrowly avoided Woodley II with Jason Worilds; I really do not want us to go down that path again, but we seem hell-bent on doing it anyway.

I like your ultimate way of solving the problem, and think it's quite reasonable, but just don't think it'll happen. I predicted as soon as they picked up the option that we were going to end up in another shitty situation where Dupree isn't really producing, but we talk ourselves into sticking with the option because he happens to be right in front of our faces and we're too hung up on the sunk cost of the #1 draft pick. I got a chorus of "No we won't! It's completely reversible!" and yet, here we are. Then I predicted that keeping the option would lead to #3 and #4, and it looks like we're still on track for that as well.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

The notion that Dupree is more comfortable on the right side than left side, and Watt the opposite...is likely just like how a switch hitter is more comfortable in baseball batting from the right side than the left side. Maybe Dupree is more comfortable swatting down OT hands with his right hand and running the arc from right to left like a running track. Maybe Watt is more comfortable dipping his right shoulder under and ripping with his right arm than the left.

Dupree is a pretty big guy and lots of times defenses want the stronger guy on the more often larger RT as opposed to LT. Maybe that is the deal with Bud. All the highlights from his Kentucky days show him lining up from the Left side, but as the Steelworker from Indiana wrote in the article, maybe that isn't "natural" for Dupree. Either way, Dupree isn't great, but he is good. I'm still trying to figure out if he is as good as Jasom Worlidong was in his 4th season.

[Mojouw]

I'm not arguing that effective / disruptive OLBs exist everywhere. I'm arguing that Dupree is NOT very effective or disruptive, and that those players exist everywhere. Mediocre players do grow on trees, and that's what we've got. So better to pay a little for one, than a lot for the one who we happen to have right now.




I think a lot of the problem is that we are just bad at finding and developing OLBs. Kind of like OL before Munchak, the high draft picks sort of muddle along with the talent they were drafted with - which is either enough to make it in the league or it isn't - and the middle and low round picks either become the Ryan Mundy of their position or never advance past special teams. Whereas with decent player development, the high picks mostly become starters and the middle picks become depth players who are effective.

The fact that we have more problems than usual at this position puts everything through the Jeff Reed lens of distortion, and we think effective replacements are scarce, and we think we're stuck but we're not. And a big difference here is that we're not even trying to replace someone who is productive. We're just trying to avoid finding someone who is extremely bad. We may even have that player on the roster (or on IR for the moment, at least). But we worry way too much.




Unfortunately, one of the likely side effects of the option is that we will also go with scenario #1. And then that will put us in scenario #2 because we failed to give ourselves other valid options. And then it leads to:

3. No effort is made to address OLB because Dupree is "the guy," so we don't really draft or sign anyone of note until he has sucked for 2+ years on his new contract, which means we suffer sub-par play all the way through 4-5 years from now.
4. Being a big contract, it is restructured almost immediately and we are locked into a Woodley situation with unbearable cap hits and dead money, only the player was never any good to deserve the contract in the first place.

We narrowly avoided Woodley II with Jason Worilds; I really do not want us to go down that path again, but we seem hell-bent on doing it anyway.

I like your ultimate way of solving the problem, and think it's quite reasonable, but just don't think it'll happen. I predicted as soon as they picked up the option that we were going to end up in another shitty situation where Dupree isn't really producing, but we talk ourselves into sticking with the option because he happens to be right in front of our faces and we're too hung up on the sunk cost of the #1 draft pick. I got a chorus of "No we won't! It's completely reversible!" and yet, here we are. Then I predicted that keeping the option would lead to #3 and #4, and it looks like we're still on track for that as well.

Okay. I think I get it now. I counter with the following:

1. Effective to elite 3-4 OLBs are only obtained through the draft. The players that make it to FA represent the dregs of the position at worst and the Anthony Chickillo's of the world at best. If you are EXTREMELY lucky, some guy pops onto the market due to cap trouble or a scheme switch. But with the current catastrophic need for pass rushers around the league, I would argue the chances of this happening in 2019 are slim to none and slim is packing to leave town. No FA help is coming. Not that makes the defense better.

2. In fact much of the 3-4 OLBs available on the open market in the last 2-3 off-seasons have been WORSE than Bud Dupree. I know, hard to believe, but it is true. This is the marketplace that forces teams to keep employing Sam Acho, Alex Okafor, and Barkevious Mingo. I mean let that sink in for a moment - the 2019 Steelers starter at OLB could be Barkevious Mingo. A dude whose next significant NFL play will be his first.

3. You are outlining a nightmare scenario. In fact one that the local team in my area is going through with Nick Perry. Due to injury and being Nick Perry, he has never lived up to the large $$$ extension he signed after his rookie deal. But you know what? It hasn't really mattered. The Packers have annually brought in the types of FA "dart throws" we have been talking about and added players through the draft. And even though Perry is overpaid, other players in the position groups are underpaid and it all kinda works out. Maybe not ideally, but in a way that despite the defensive woes and poor record of the Packers, it isn't because they over-paid Nick Perry. So, I'm not certain the "nightmare" is all that bad -- unless they simply stop bringing in OLBs. And when have the Steelers ever done that? I've been seriously following the team for 20+ years now and I can not think of the last off-season cycle where they didn't try and add 2-3 legitimate OLB prospects to the off-season mix.

4. The math of this all is just not as bad as you are making it sound. $9.2 million is the 5th year option. The cap is likely to be around 187-190 million. So $9 million is around 4.8% of that total. More than spare change, but less than serious money for an NFL franchise. In terms of "bad contracts" and dead money and all that. It happened ONCE in recent memory - Woodley. That's the only time. So why would the starting assumption be that the Steelers would step on the same landmine again? We just saw with the entire Leveon Bell situation that the Steelers don't change they way they do contracts for anyone. Ever. Dupree will eventually receive an offer at a # the team is comfortable with and all of the big $$$ will be in year one. Then it will function as a serious of easy out one year options for all intents and purposes. It gets more complicated because they tend to restructure these big deals almost annually, but the point is that the team can get out of them without crippling financial penalties. Haden's deal works this way. AB's deal is this way. Heyward and Tuitt's deals are this way and Shazier's almost certainly would've been. Heck, even VW's deal was along that structure just for less money.

Very long story short -- everything you are outlining has basically never happened. So why would we have much of a basis for believing it would now? I think you raise some good points -- the need to never stop bringing in pass rush prospects. I totally agree. Overall, this whole thing is starting to remind me of when people absolutely flipped out over the $$$ amount for the Marcus Gilbert extension. Due to him being an injury risk and not all that great there were many calls for this contract being a burden. I mean that wasn't the case at all. Even if Gilbert got bumped from the starting line-up during this contract, the dollars would'nt have been that bad.

We all need to remember that the few year period where restructures and extensions caught the Steelers and bit them in the ass are the ONLY years in the entire salary-cap era that the cap stayed flat. If the cap had risen in those seasons at even a fraction of it's general average increase, none of that difficult money stuff would've every happened. With ratings back-up, network profits stabilizing, etc etc -- the cap is back on that rocket-ship to the moon path until at least the next CBA.

[polamalubeast]

Sometimes, a team must not judge a player only on the sacks....Just to look how Jason Worilds did his sacks in 2013 ....

Timestamp Players Beaten Speed Rush Bull Rush Other
NYJ, Q2 10:41 Bilal Powell No No Strength against bad block
NE, Q1 11:01 None No No No
NE, Q3 03:15 Nate Solder Yes No No
DET, Q3 11:13 None No No No
BAL, Q1 09:54 Ray Rice No No Strength against bad block
BAL, Q2 04:27 Michael Oher Yes No Dip
MIA, Q2 13:18 None No No No
GB, Q2 12:33 None No No No

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1983697-breaking-down-jason-worilds-production-for-the-pittsburgh-steelers-in-2013


They were classic dong sacks and I still do not understand why Colbert put the transition tag on him even if his sacks were very unimpressive ..... One of the worst moves that Colbert made....I can not defend this decisions.

[steelreserve]

Okay. I think I get it now. I counter with the following:


... (etc) ...


Look, I think a big part of our disagreement is just on how productive (or not) Dupree is. I really don't put him that much above the do-nothings you keep mentioning with "imagine if _______ was playing OLB for us." I wouldn't care if Barkevius Mingo was playing OLB. I don't think it would be too noticeable because Dupree just isn't good. I don't think his production is any better than what you should expect out of a third- or fourth-round pick as a rookie either.

Basically, what are we afraid of "losing" by not having Dupree on the roster? There is not anything to be afraid of, because there's nothing there to lose. Like, if I'm imagining the nightmare contract scenario, you're imagining the nightmare talent scenario. I think that if we were unable to find someone playing at a similar level, we would have to be very unlucky or completely negligent.

Even if we literally brought in nobody, and had to go with Chickillo and Olafasasdasfdsafasdfa at the position next year, the effect would not be like falling off a cliff, it'd be like falling off a couch, onto a pillow. You cannot fall off very much if you are not high up to begin with. I don't think Dupree has done a damn thing for us, other than occasionally show flashes that he might, if he improves a lot, and gets a lot more consistent, one day be average. That is worth zero to me.

Marcus Gilbert was a great extension at a very reasonable price, the people who were mad about that were on crack. A year or two before, it would've been a terrible move, but he clearly improved leaps and bounds by the time we made that move. Way, way more than Dupree has ever shown.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Sometimes, a team must not judge a player only on the sacks....Just to look how Jason Worilds did his sacks in 2013 ....

Timestamp Players Beaten Speed Rush Bull Rush Other
NYJ, Q2 10:41 Bilal Powell No No Strength against bad block
NE, Q1 11:01 None No No No
NE, Q3 03:15 Nate Solder Yes No No
DET, Q3 11:13 None No No No
BAL, Q1 09:54 Ray Rice No No Strength against bad block
BAL, Q2 04:27 Michael Oher Yes No Dip
MIA, Q2 13:18 None No No No
GB, Q2 12:33 None No No No

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1983697-breaking-down-jason-worilds-production-for-the-pittsburgh-steelers-in-2013


They were classic dong sacks and I still do not understand why Colbert put the transition tag on him even if his sacks were very unimpressive ..... One of the worst moves that Colbert made....I can not defend this decisions.

Best Dong Sack breakdown ever!

:hail:

[Mojouw]

Look, I think a big part of our disagreement is just on how productive (or not) Dupree is. I really don't put him that much above the do-nothings you keep mentioning with "imagine if _______ was playing OLB for us." I wouldn't care if Barkevius Mingo was playing OLB. I don't think it would be too noticeable because Dupree just isn't good. I don't think his production is any better than what you should expect out of a third- or fourth-round pick as a rookie either.

Basically, what are we afraid of "losing" by not having Dupree on the roster? There is not anything to be afraid of, because there's nothing there to lose. Like, if I'm imagining the nightmare contract scenario, you're imagining the nightmare talent scenario. I think that if we were unable to find someone playing at a similar level, we would have to be very unlucky or completely negligent.

Even if we literally brought in nobody, and had to go with Chickillo and Olafasasdasfdsafasdfa at the position next year, the effect would not be like falling off a cliff, it'd be like falling off a couch, onto a pillow. You cannot fall off very much if you are not high up to begin with. I don't think Dupree has done a damn thing for us, other than occasionally show flashes that he might, if he improves a lot, and gets a lot more consistent, one day be average. That is worth zero to me.

Marcus Gilbert was a great extension at a very reasonable price, the people who were mad about that were on crack. A year or two before, it would've been a terrible move, but he clearly improved leaps and bounds by the time we made that move. Way, way more than Dupree has ever shown.

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head with the bolded bit. I just fundamentally disagree that the drop-off isn't far steeper than you imagine.

Like I said, last year rough count looks like 30-40 OLBs that you could envision in a rush role hit the FA market -- ONE guy. One guy has had a 2018 impact that you are envisioning. Of the rookie OLB class from the past draft (excluding Chubb and Davenport), one guy is on pace for 6-8 sacks. One.

So to use sacks as a crappy measure of defensive impact, that means in the 33 guys drafted at DE/OLB outside the first 15 picks and the roughly 30 guys that switched teams last year in FA, TWO players have been able to crack their teams starting line-ups and provide production at or above the "Dupree Line".

Outside of the top half to third of the first round, you are going to have to let a pass rusher season for a bit before they really impact. That does not mean that you can not get a better player than Bud Dupree anywhere in the draft, you can. But not for 2019.

I feel like we can adequately evaluate both the "talent" risk pool and the "contract" risk pool based on recent empirical data. The 5th year option is fairly low on the contract risk pool and NOT picking it up is pretty darn high on the talent risk pool. So looking at it solely from that angle, why the heck wouldn't a team look at doing an option year for one further off-season cycle to get a successor in place?

[polamalubeast]

One of Dupree's problems is that we've had a lot of great linebacker in the last 25 years for the pass rush like Harrison, Woodley, Porter, Gildon, Greene and Lloyd, so that's why our standards are very high.

Dupree is far from perfect, but 9.5 million is not much at his position in the today's market.

And the steelers are not in a cap hell for 2019, so I expect Dupree to still be a steeler in 2019 .... if the steelers would not have wanted Dupree back for the 2019 season, the steelers would not have pîck his option last April.

[steelreserve]

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head with the bolded bit. I just fundamentally disagree that the drop-off isn't far steeper than you imagine.

Like I said, last year rough count looks like 30-40 OLBs that you could envision in a rush role hit the FA market -- ONE guy. One guy has had a 2018 impact that you are envisioning. Of the rookie OLB class from the past draft (excluding Chubb and Davenport), one guy is on pace for 6-8 sacks. One.

So to use sacks as a crappy measure of defensive impact, that means in the 33 guys drafted at DE/OLB outside the first 15 picks and the roughly 30 guys that switched teams last year in FA, TWO players have been able to crack their teams starting line-ups and provide production at or above the "Dupree Line".

Outside of the top half to third of the first round, you are going to have to let a pass rusher season for a bit before they really impact. That does not mean that you can not get a better player than Bud Dupree anywhere in the draft, you can. But not for 2019.

I feel like we can adequately evaluate both the "talent" risk pool and the "contract" risk pool based on recent empirical data. The 5th year option is fairly low on the contract risk pool and NOT picking it up is pretty darn high on the talent risk pool. So looking at it solely from that angle, why the heck wouldn't a team look at doing an option year for one further off-season cycle to get a successor in place?


Yeah, that's definitely the difference. If you want an "impact" player, then you are paying as much or more than Dupree will cost. If you are merely looking to hold serve, I think you can do that for a lot less than what Dupree will cost.

I don't view him as an impact player and think we basically need a placeholder who just has to not be complete bottom-of-the-barrel trash. That is simple to replace, and probably what you will get in the draft unless you have bad luck.

If you evaluate Dupree as having somewhat meaningful talent, then it is not as simple to replace, and not guaranteed in the draft.

If you are looking to "improve" the position above and beyond what we have now, that will be expensive. But I don't especially think we need to do that; I would rather use the money or the high pick on someone who can do a reasonable Shazier imitation or at least cover the tight end, which will make our slow-fat ILB position better and thereby improve two positions at once. Improving the pass rush is not really an urgent need for me - Heyward, Tuitt and Watt do a good job, and because they fulfill that obligation, any +1 from Dupree to whoever is going to be effective enough to get by.

[Six Rings]

What is the context of each sack or pressure?

Weren't there people on here saying it's impossible for them to switch sides?

So far Dupree hasn't shown much worthy of re-signing him.

Bud is not very strong vs the run, but he's decent as a pass rusher. Chickillo is not starting material. The good news is Me'von Bell left us with 14.5 million added in cap space next season.

[tube517]

Best Dong Sack breakdown ever!

:hail:

Any OLB named Jason is an automatic Dong Sack Machine.

[GoSlash27]

I would rather use the money or the high pick on someone who can do a reasonable Shazier imitation or at least cover the tight end, which will make our slow-fat ILB position better and thereby improve two positions at once.

Josey Jewell, Denver.
He's a rookie backup, but if you can swing the deal the kid plays at a Shazier level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aOO-FH0X3M

[pczach]

Josey Jewell, Denver.
He's a rookie backup, but if you can swing the deal the kid plays at a Shazier level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aOO-FH0X3M



I really like Jewell, but he is not a Shazier level player. Shazier is in the discussion as the greatest athlete to ever play LB and is a pro bowl level player with a knack for making big plays and turnovers. Jewel just hasn't done anything at the NFL level yet to make that claim.

They are different types of players.

Shazier is a freak athlete with sprinter speed in a 235 lb body. Incredibly explosive and athletic.

Jewell has some athleticism, and he is extremely smart and instinctive. He is nowhere near the athlete Shazier is, but I believe he has a chance to be a good LB. Just a different type of LB.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I really like Jewell, but he is not a Shazier level player. Shazier is in the discussion as the greatest athlete to ever play LB and is a pro bowl level player with a knack for making big plays and turnovers. Jewel just hasn't done anything at the NFL level yet to make that claim.

They are different types of players.

Shazier is a freak athlete with sprinter speed in a 235 lb body. Incredibly explosive and athletic.

Jewell has some athleticism, and he is extremely smart and instinctive. He is nowhere near the athlete Shazier is, but I believe he has a chance to be a good LB. Just a different type of LB.

Jewell is basically Matakevich 2.0. Smart, instinctive, sure tackler in college, but both run a 4.82 40-yard dash and a 32" vertical and thus their lack of speed and athleticism make them both backup ILB and special teamers in the NFL.

[st33lersguy]

Steelers are already starting 2 slow run stuffers at ILB

[pczach]

Jewell is basically Matakevich 2.0. Smart, instinctive, sure tackler in college, but both run a 4.82 40-yard dash and a 32" vertical and thus their lack of speed and athleticism make them both backup ILB and special teamers in the NFL.


You are correct. Jewells combine numbers are very pedestrian.

I think Jewell is a little more athletic, he's better against the pass, and he looks to operate a little better in space than Matakevich, but to mention him in the same breath with Shazier just isn't accurate.

- - - Updated - - -

Here are Josey Jewell's combine numbers: https://www.nfl.com/prospects/josey-jewell?id=32462018-0002-5598-194c-8a71e8b56260

[GoSlash27]

Yeah, I misspoke. Jewell plays at Shazier speed, not "level". Nobody plays at Shazier's level. If you want someone who can "do a reasonable Shazier imitation or at least cover the tight end", then Jewell's the guy you want. Bonus: He can play sideline to sideline and blow up outside runs/ screens in the backfield without over-pursuing.

And everybody's quick to point out the combine numbers, but they're not indicative of in-game speed. Jewell has an incredibly high motor and flies around on the field. If you want to know what a player can or can't do, you have to watch him play ball, not look at combine numbers.

[Mojouw]

The 200+ rushing and 90+ receiving that Barkley hung on Jewell and the Hawkeyes last season would seem to indicate Jewell isn't at an NFL level either sideline to sideline or in coverage.

[pczach]

Yeah, I misspoke. Jewell plays at Shazier speed, not "level". Nobody plays at Shazier's level. If you want someone who can "do a reasonable Shazier imitation or at least cover the tight end", then Jewell's the guy you want. Bonus: He can play sideline to sideline and blow up outside runs/ screens in the backfield without over-pursuing.

And everybody's quick to point out the combine numbers, but they're not indicative of in-game speed. Jewell has an incredibly high motor and flies around on the field. If you want to know what a player can or can't do, you have to watch him play ball, not look at combine numbers.



I have watched him play a good number of games. That's why I say I like him more as a player than Matakevich even though their combine numbers are almost identical.

He flies around the field, but flying is relative when the field is filled with players that aren't as fast across the board as they are in the NFL. I'd like to see what he could do in the right defense with enough talent around him. He's a player that is greater than the sum of his parts with all the intangibles and will he possesses. He just isn't an elite athlete and is limited because of that.

[GoSlash27]

I have watched him play a good number of games. That's why I say I like him more as a player than Matakevich even though their combine numbers are almost identical.

He flies around the field, but flying is relative when the field is filled with players that aren't as fast across the board as they are in the NFL. I'd like to see what he could do in the right defense with enough talent around him. He's a player that is greater than the sum of his parts with all the intangibles and will he possesses. He just isn't an elite athlete and is limited because of that.

Yeah, I'd agree with that... but what he lacks in raw athleticism he more than makes up for in football intelligence, technique, and situational awareness.


The 200+ rushing and 90+ receiving that Barkley hung on Jewell and the Hawkeyes last season would seem to indicate Jewell isn't at an NFL level either sideline to sideline or in coverage.
Mojo,
This is a silly argument IMO. We got pasted by the Ravens back in week 4, so I guess (insert favorite Steeler here) isn't good enough to play in the NFL?

[Mojouw]

Yeah, I'd agree with that... but what he lacks in raw athleticism he more than makes up for in football intelligence, technique, and situational awareness.


Mojo,
This is a silly argument IMO. We got pasted by the Ravens back in week 4, so I guess (insert favorite Steeler here) isn't good enough to play in the NFL?

I just rewatched portions of that game earlier tonight and Jewell got beat to the edge repeatedly and couldn't stick with Barkley I'm coverage. Had a great college career but is not an NFL starter.


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[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I just rewatched portions of that game earlier tonight and Jewell got beat to the edge repeatedly and couldn't stick with Barkley I'm coverage. Had a great college career but is not an NFL starter.


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I think he would have been an upgrade over Dirty Red, but was picked in the 4th and the Steelers didn't have a pick then. Still, I agree that he doesn't have speed to the edge and would not be any better than VW or Bostic.

[pczach]

I think he would have been an upgrade over Dirty Red, but was picked in the 4th and the Steelers didn't have a pick then. Still, I agree that he doesn't have speed to the edge and would not be any better than VW or Bostic.


Agreed. Probably this.

[Mojouw]

I think he would have been an upgrade over Dirty Red, but was picked in the 4th and the Steelers didn't have a pick then. Still, I agree that he doesn't have speed to the edge and would not be any better than VW or Bostic.
Agreed. Just took a look at the posted highlights. Interesting that in almost every single one of the run stops or pass rushes Jewell is unblocked. An entire highlight reel where he defeats not a single block. I remember anothe slow college LB that had gaudy stats by being the designated playmaker on his defense. Is now out of the NFL I believe.

[BlackAndGold]

After the Jags game, Watt now has 10 sacks on the season.

[polamalubeast]

After the Jags game, Watt now has 10 sacks o the season.

First OLB of the steelers to have 10 sacks in a season since Harrison and Woodley in 2010.

[Shoes]

Watt is being held, like around the throat often

[pczach]

First OLB of the steelers to have 10 sacks in a season since Harrison and Woodley in 2010.



He's also starting to beat double teams. What a player.