Week 9:Baltimore Ravens(4-4)

[polamalubeast]

It's a must win ..... for Baltimore...The steelers have a chance to hurt the chances of the ravens to make the playoffs with a win.

I never thought after the week 4 that this game would be a must win for Baltimore but not for us.

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[saturdaysarebetter]

Sure would be nice to put the Ravens in the rear view mirror for the rest of the season.

[polamalubeast]

The Ravens should be very desperate, so the Steelers must be ready ...

[teegre]

Throw the records out... @Baltimore is always the toughest game of our season.

[AtlantaDan]

Ravens open as 3 point favorites - seems about right. Two evenly matched teams with home field advantage to Ravens

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nfl/odds/las-vegas/

As posted above, Ravens players and the coaching staff will be approaching this game with a sense of desperation. And not just potentially for their season. If Harbaugh misses the playoffs again this year the owner may be ready to make a change.

So the Steelers are going to be getting the Ravens at max intensity and cannot afford another sleepwalking first quarter start.

[Moose]

Throw the records out... @Baltimore is always the toughest game of our season.

As are the games with the Browns and the Bungholes ! NO teams are gimmee's with this team.

[GoSlash27]

Throw the records out... @Baltimore is always the toughest game of our season.

Agreed. Baltimore has a solid defense. They'll be tough to beat in their house.

[Iron Steeler]

They took the air out of our stadium. We abandoned the run game. With the ravens you can't just trying and line up and slug with them. Need more pre snap mis-directions.( Look at Carolina)

Harbaugh has Tomlin figured out. This is going to be a tough game....aaaand we play Carolina the following Thursday with no rest or preparation.


So this Sunday will be a high emotion/ high physical game. Then Thursday we will be a sloppy mess performance on all fronts .

[86WARD]

They took the air out of our stadium. We abandoned the run game. With the ravens you can't just trying and line up and slug with them. Need more pre snap mis-directions.( Look at Carolina)

Harbaugh has Tomlin figured out. This is going to be a tough game....aaaand we play Carolina the following Thursday with no rest or preparation.


So this Sunday will be a high emotion/ high physical game. Then Thursday we will be a sloppy mess performance on all fronts .

Need to come out of these 2 games 1-1 or better.

[Fire Goodell]

Ravens will be desperate, but this is a must win for our team as well. Time for some effing payback.

- - - Updated - - -


Need to come out of these 2 games 1-1 or better.

If that happens then rather win this one, being a division game and all. Carolina is one we can more afford to lose imo.

[86WARD]

Ravens will be desperate, but this is a must win for our team as well. Time for some effing payback.

- - - Updated - - -



If that happens then rather win this one, being a division game and all. Carolina is one we can more afford to lose imo.

I don’t think the Ravens or the Panthers are good. The Steelers should beat both of these teams fairly easily...but they won’t...not easily at least...

[Fire Goodell]

I don’t think the Ravens or the Panthers are good. The Steelers should beat both of these teams fairly easily...but they won’t...not easily at least...

I think the Panthers are the better team, but I see us struggling against the Ravens more. The Ravens are one of those matchups where you throw the records out because they always give us a hard time

[Mojouw]

Both these teams (Ravens and Panthers) are legit playoff caliber opponents.

I don't see how Steelers go any better than 1-1 and if they lose a close hard fought game to the Ravens, the physical toll may cause them to drop the Thursday night game.

This two game stretch might be the key to their season.

[86WARD]

Cowboys, Bengals, Giants, Eagles, Ravens are the teams the Panthers have beaten. They’ve lost to the Redskins and the Falcons. I’d argue that the Steelers are far superior to any of those teams listed above. This should be a win for the Steelers bit as Mojouw states, the physical toll from the Ravens game could also effect the outcome of the Panthers game.

[cubanstogie]

Ravens and Panthers similar matchup for Steelers IMO except for the fact Cam can run much better than Joe. They both love TE and check down to RB's. Something that frustrates the hell out of me. I think at worst they go 1-1. Steelers and Ravens momentum wise are 180 degrees from when they played earlier this year. Steelers are trending up and after yesterday when the free kick debacle happened they were in the same situation as week 1 against the Browns and responded this time. That was a good sign. I would love to see Vance make some plays early and get em fired up. As everyone Im tired of sluggish starts.

[Lady Steel]

I don't think it's going to be easy but, yep, it's a must win for our boys in the Black 'n Gold. They can do this!

[polamalubeast]

It's not supposed to be easy to play against ravens, especially in their house....I mean, they only lost by 1 point against the saints last week.

The panthers have a great team with a very good HC and QB .... I mean, they were 15-1 in 2015, 11-5 last year and 5-2 this year ... 2016 was a fluke .

[Craic]

I think the Panthers are the better team, but I see us struggling against the Ravens more. The Ravens are one of those matchups where you throw the records out because they always give us a hard time
This.

I don't care how bad the Ravens are, they almost always play us tough. In the same way, it doesn't matter how bad we are, we'll almost always show up against them.
Exhibit 1: Charlie Batch for the win.

[Crow-Magnon]

I ain't got much to say after last Sunday's debacle. IMO, it was a shitshow after the first series. Sloppy, sloppy play. No crowd noise to speak of and the Ravens still looked lost. The secondary really misses Marlon Humphrey. And the running game is pathetic.

I'm looking at an L and watching Harbaugh's last hurrah as the HC.

[Moose]

I ain't got much to say after last Sunday's debacle. IMO, it was a shitshow after the first series. Sloppy, sloppy play. No crowd noise to speak of and the Ravens still looked lost. The secondary really misses Marlon Humphrey. And the running game is pathetic.

I'm looking at an L and watching Harbaugh's last hurrah as the HC.

Sure hope you're right about the L on your team, not too sure on the Harbaugh's last hurrah thing though.

[AtlantaDan]

I ain't got much to say after last Sunday's debacle. IMO, it was a shitshow after the first series. Sloppy, sloppy play. No crowd noise to speak of and the Ravens still looked lost. The secondary really misses Marlon Humphrey. And the running game is pathetic.

I'm looking at an L and watching Harbaugh's last hurrah as the HC.

Hi Crow - I know the feeling when the Steelers fall apart and I assume the end is near. FWIW I look for Ravens playing at their peak this Sunday.

Is Jackson being worked into the offense as a more traditional QB (aside from garbage time on Sunday) or is his involvement still more along the line of gadget plays where Flacco stays in and pretends to be a receiver while Jackson takes the snap?

[polamalubeast]

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[polamalubeast]

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[Crow-Magnon]

Hi Crow - I know the feeling when the Steelers fall apart and I assume the end is near. FWIW I look for Ravens playing at their peak this Sunday.

Is Jackson being worked into the offense as a more traditional QB (aside from garbage time on Sunday) or is his involvement still more along the line of gadget plays where Flacco stays in and pretends to be a receiver while Jackson takes the snap?

Jackson is mostly being used to run options while Flacco (worthlessly) lines up as WR. So...10 actives and one inactive on the field lol. They ran a play where he lined up and took the snap and had a receiver wide open and he threw it 5 yards short into the dirt.

I will say he truly can run a great play-action. His fakes are fantastic. When the cameramen get bamboozled constantly you know his fakes are good.

[AtlantaDan]

Jackson is mostly being used to run options while Flacco (worthlessly) lines up as WR. So...10 actives and one inactive on the field lol. They ran a play where he lined up and took the snap and had a receiver wide open and he threw it 5 yards short into the dirt.

I will say he truly can run a great play-action. His fakes are fantastic. When the cameramen get bamboozled constantly you know his fakes are good.

Thanks for the info :drink:

[Fire Goodell]

Jackson is mostly being used to run options while Flacco (worthlessly) lines up as WR. So...10 actives and one inactive on the field lol. They ran a play where he lined up and took the snap and had a receiver wide open and he threw it 5 yards short into the dirt.

I will say he truly can run a great play-action. His fakes are fantastic. When the cameramen get bamboozled constantly you know his fakes are good.

I figure if Flacco doesn't even run routes, why not take him off the field? Unless they're trying to set up something late in the season where nobody will bother covering him and a pass goes to him for like a critical 1st down :chuckle:

Do they use Jackson as a WR? If not I'm sure alarm bells are going off in the heads of the DC every time he comes in

I remember the Steelers way back used Kordell Stewart similarly but O'Donnell still tried to run routes, although horribly and defenses wouldn't even bother covering him lol.

[fansince'76]

They ran a play where he lined up and took the snap and had a receiver wide open and he threw it 5 yards short into the dirt.

Flashes back to Kordell Stewart. :chuckle:

[polamalubeast]

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[GoSlash27]

My biggest concern: Coty Sensabaugh went out with a toe injury in the Browns game and didn't practice today.

[polamalubeast]

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[Born2Steel]

Hey look PB!!!! We're playing against your favorite coach this week.

[Dissolv]

This one worries me. The Ravens clearly came fully ready for us last time, and the Steelers just felt....pedestrian. The obvious game plan is to get ahead of the slow starting Steelers early, take Conner out of the game, and then bring the pain while retaining all the options on offense.

If there is one game to go against the trend and start scoring early, I think this one is it.

[Mojouw]

I don't expect this to go well. This is the Ravens entire season. Win and they still can influence their playoff lives. Lose and they are totally on the outside. A desperate division foe at home? Not a good recipe.

[pczach]

I don't expect this to go well. This is the Ravens entire season. Win and they still can influence their playoff lives. Lose and they are totally on the outside. A desperate division foe at home? Not a good recipe.


In the first game, the Ravens game planned well for that game. They ran a lot of stuff they hadn't put on tape before. It was obvious that it was an important game to them. I expect them to add a lot of different looks and to make adjustments to run different stuff out of the sets the Steelers have seen on tape. They will probably go for some big plays while staying away from some of their tendencies.

I expect this to be a very difficult game for the Steelers. The Ravens are desperate and they are going to empty the playbook in this one. Let's hope the Steelers are doing some of the same to get some favorable situations that they can take advantage of.

The Ravens' defense gave them fits in the first game. We'll see if Fichtner has learned from what some other teams have been doing to have success against them and will be able to take advantage of that.

They are healthier and are playing much better on the defensive side of the ball. Here's hoping they have more success in this game and find a way to win. It would be sweet to put the Ravens in a very bad spot by pinning a loss on them. They will be in trouble if they lose this game.

[DesertSteel]

I expect this game to go very favorably for the Steelers. I think the Ravens are being exposed for the team we all thought they'd be before the season (7-9 or 8-8). Sometimes desperation is not enough. Steelers are healthy for the most part and clicking.

29-19 Steelers

[EzraTank]

I was listening to the NFL network on XM yesterday. The guy put up Ben's stats at Baltimore and it's atrocious. He has a ridiculous number of turnovers and his record (3-10) there is bad.

I just don't see us beating this team in Baltimore especially after what they did to us at home. It will be close but they pull away at the end and win 20-9.

[86WARD]

They are due for a clunker...

[polamalubeast]

I was listening to the NFL network on XM yesterday. The guy put up Ben's stats at Baltimore and it's atrocious. He has a ridiculous number of turnovers and his record there is bad.

I just don't see us beating this team in Baltimore especially after what they did to us at home. It will be close but they pull away at the end and win 20-9.

Yes, but as a team, the steelers have been much better on the road than at home since last year.

[steel striker]

Huge game and, it would big if the Steelers won this game. We know it will be a tough game bit, like mentioned above the Steelers & Ben have played pretty well on the road this year. Hopefully they will get off to a good start an, not trail by 2 scored early so maybe Conner can have some touches. Then maybe the pass rush can force Flacco into some bad throws.

[86WARD]

All just depends on what team shows up...if they show, they win.

[st33lersguy]

Baltimore will be desperate, and this is a difficult place for Pittsburgh to play.

[AtlantaDan]

Another hater drinking the haterade :coffee:
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[polamalubeast]

Another hater drinking the haterade :coffee:
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He is right!

[polamalubeast]

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[polamalubeast]

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tie0tz7jGDI

[polamalubeast]

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[GoSlash27]

Good news: Coty Sensabaugh was a limited participant in today's practice. That's a step in the right direction (pardon the pun).

[Fire Goodell]

Honestly I didn't think the Ravens defense played spectacular in our first meeting. Ben was missing wide open receivers by 5+ yards, some of those misses, actually a lot of them, being drive killers.

I expect him to play better on Sunday, but statistically Ben hasn't played well at Baltimore. James Conner is going to be the guy to have to carry the offense, and I think with how he's been running lately, there's a chance of that happening.

[polamalubeast]

Honestly I didn't think the Ravens defense played spectacular in our first meeting. Ben was missing wide open receivers by 5+ yards, some of those misses, actually a lot of them, being drive killers.

I expect him to play better on Sunday, but statistically Ben hasn't played well at Baltimore. James Conner is going to be the guy to have to carry the offense, and I think with how he's been running lately, there's a chance of that happening.

It will take a team effort like last year in our game in Baltimore.

If our defense is a disaster like in the first matchup (450 yards offense for ravens) we have no chance ... If Conner has only 9 runs, no matter the reasons, it's unlikely we win too.

[polamalubeast]

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[polamalubeast]

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[Fire Goodell]

would be a good time for watt to have another 3 sack game :chuckle:

[GoSlash27]

Coty Sensabaugh was a full participant in practice today. He's listed as questionable for the game. Artie Burns turned an ankle, also listed as questionable. Marcus Gilbert is out with the flu. Matt Feiler will be taking over for him. That's the entire injury report. Everyone else is in.

Feiler handled that assignment very well last week against Carlos Dunlap, so I'm pretty sure Suggs will be contained. I'm worried about Sensabaugh, but optimistic.

[bendsteel]

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And a few other big names dinged up! Be nice to see CJ a little gimpy. Conner run right over him a time or two.

[teegre]

Ravens fans are saying that if the Ravens lose this game, the countdown to the firing of Harbaugh begins...

[Lady Steel]

Ravens fans are saying that if the Ravens lose this game, the countdown to the firing of Harbaugh begins...

Oooooh, juicy! Keep us up-to-date. I love juicy scoop.

[pczach]

Ravens fans are saying that if the Ravens lose this game, the countdown to the firing of Harbaugh begins...



The amazing thing about all of that is that Cleveland Browns coaches literally get fired for not beating the Steelers.....almost ever.

Jim Harbaugh may lose his job if he loses to the Steelers......but he has won more against the Steelers than anyone.

His problem and the Ravens' problem is that they put so much into every Pit-Bal matchup that they struggle in most of the other games. IMO, Harbaugh game plans for these matchups much more than their other games. It's ironic to think that Harbaugh's greatest success may ultimately be what get's him fired. They built a team to beat the Steelers, but they're having problems beating everybody else.

They treat these matchups like playoff games, and seem to have a hard time duplicating that every week.

Tomlin has been losing the battle to Harbaugh, but winning the war because his team is more prepared to win every week. Because of this, they have also ended up with the superior record and have beaten them in big spots late in the year to seal the division far too often in recent years for the Ravens' organization.

This is just my opinion, but I have felt this way for a while now.

[teegre]

The amazing thing about all of that is that Cleveland Browns coaches literally get fired for not beating the Steelers.....almost ever.

Jim Harbaugh may lose his job if he loses to the Steelers......but he has won more against the Steelers than anyone.

His problem and the Ravens' problem is that they put so much into every Pit-Bal matchup that they struggle in most of the other games. IMO, Harbaugh game plans for these matchups much more than their other games. It's ironic to think that Harbaugh's greatest success may ultimately be what get's him fired. They built a team to beat the Steelers, but they're having problems beating everybody else.

They treat these matchups like playoff games, and seem to have a hard time duplicating that every week.

Tomlin has been losing the battle to Harbaugh, but winning the war because his team is more prepared to win every week. Because of this, they have also ended up with the superior record and have beaten them in big spots late in the year to seal the division far too often in recent years for the Ravens' organization.

This is just my opinion, but I have felt this way for a while now.

This is an amazing post.

[AtlantaDan]

I was listening to the NFL network on XM yesterday. The guy put up Ben's stats at Baltimore and it's atrocious. He has a ridiculous number of turnovers and his record (3-10) there is bad.

Thanks for posting that stat

I did not recall how bad Ben's record has been in Baltimore - last season was the Steelers first win in Baltimore with Ben at QB since 2010 (with some clunker losses including the 2015 week 16 loss to the Ravens backup QB Ryan Mallet that should have knocked the Steelers out of a wild card spot)

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00/gamelog/?opp_id=rav


The amazing thing about all of that is that Cleveland Browns coaches literally get fired for not beating the Steelers.....almost ever.

Jim Harbaugh may lose his job if he loses to the Steelers......but he has won more against the Steelers than anyone.

His problem and the Ravens' problem is that they put so much into every Pit-Bal matchup that they struggle in most of the other games. IMO, Harbaugh game plans for these matchups much more than their other games. It's ironic to think that Harbaugh's greatest success may ultimately be what get's him fired. They built a team to beat the Steelers, but they're having problems beating everybody else.

They treat these matchups like playoff games, and seem to have a hard time duplicating that every week.

Tomlin has been losing the battle to Harbaugh, but winning the war because his team is more prepared to win every week. Because of this, they have also ended up with the superior record and have beaten them in big spots late in the year to seal the division far too often in recent years for the Ravens' organization.

This is just my opinion, but I have felt this way for a while now.

Good post on Harbaugh's fixation on the Steelers :thumbsup:

But respectfully disagree about Tomlin's teams being more prepared to win every week given the recurring clusters against bad teams where the Steelers play down to the level of the opposition

Tomlin's greater success in recent years probably is mostly to do with Ben and skill players such as Bell & Brown pulling out games late against the rest of the league where non-elite Joe Flacco and his journeymen skill players cannot. Until the Ravens possibly rebounded this season neither team has worked with a top 5 defense for some time but the Steelers retooled with having drafted a very good offense that Haley achieved some success with (although given the personnel not as much as might be expected).

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/index.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/index.htm

[polamalubeast]

I was listening to the NFL network on XM yesterday. The guy put up Ben's stats at Baltimore and it's atrocious. He has a ridiculous number of turnovers and his record (3-10) there is bad.

I just don't see us beating this team in Baltimore especially after what they did to us at home. It will be close but they pull away at the end and win 20-9.

In fact, his record is 3-6, not 3-10 .... 4 of his loss, Ben had not played in Baltimore....Still not good and he must be better of course.

But if the steelers win tomorrow the road woes of the steelers will be thing of the past.

I mean, in the regular season, the steelers are 13-1-1 since the middle of the season in 2016 on the road ..... This is the first time since 2005 that I am confident like that when the steelers are on the road

[polamalubeast]

Thanks for posting that stat

I did not recall how bad Ben's record has been in Baltimore - last season was the Steelers first win in Baltimore with Ben at QB since 2010 (with some clunker losses including the 2015 week 16 loss to the Ravens backup QB Ryan Mallet that should have knocked the Steelers out of a wild card spot)

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00/gamelog/?opp_id=rav



Good post on Harbaugh's fixation on the Steelers :thumbsup:

But respectfully disagree about Tomlin's teams being more prepared to win every week given the recurring clusters against bad teams where the Steelers play down to the level of the opposition

Tomlin's greater success in recent years probably is mostly to do with Ben and skill players such as Bell & Brown pulling out games late against the rest of the league where non-elite Joe Flacco and his journeymen skill players cannot. Until the Ravens possibly rebounded this season neither team has worked with a top 5 defense for some time but the Steelers retooled with having drafted a very good offense that Haley achieved some success with (although given the personnel not as much as might be expected).

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/index.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/index.htm

I agree

Last year, steelers and ravens had a similar points differencial, but the steelers finished 13-3 and the ravens were 9-7 and missed the playoffs.This year, only the chiefs and the rams have better points differencial than the ravens but the ravens are 4-4...Flacco has not had a game winning drive since week 3 in 2016 !!!!

Of course, it's not just Flacco's fault, but the ravens are not very good in the clutch in last couple years.

[Born2Steel]

You guys that want to disrespect Tomlin for 13-3 last year are lost. He actually won that Patriots game. He lost against 2 teams. Both ran the same rush attack that exposed our LBs. Every other game he won. Includes a total sweep of the division. Tomlin did a fantastic coaching job last season.

[pczach]

Thanks for posting that stat

I did not recall how bad Ben's record has been in Baltimore - last season was the Steelers first win in Baltimore with Ben at QB since 2010 (with some clunker losses including the 2015 week 16 loss to the Ravens backup QB Ryan Mallet that should have knocked the Steelers out of a wild card spot)

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00/gamelog/?opp_id=rav



Good post on Harbaugh's fixation on the Steelers :thumbsup:

But respectfully disagree about Tomlin's teams being more prepared to win every week given the recurring clusters against bad teams where the Steelers play down to the level of the opposition

Tomlin's greater success in recent years probably is mostly to do with Ben and skill players such as Bell & Brown pulling out games late against the rest of the league where non-elite Joe Flacco and his journeymen skill players cannot. Until the Ravens possibly rebounded this season neither team has worked with a top 5 defense for some time but the Steelers retooled with having drafted a very good offense that Haley achieved some success with (although given the personnel not as much as might be expected).

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/index.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/index.htm



How dare you disagree with me! :rofl2:

I have a couple questions for you.

If Tomlin's teams play down to their competition, how have the Ravens been beating them when they are a hated division rival and a team that is generally competing for the division title every year? Aren't those the teams that Tomlin teams play well against?

If the Ravens simply don't have the skill players the Steelers have to pull out games, how does that explain how they manage to outplay the Steelers on a fairly regular basis and win those games? Again, the Ravens are a worthy opponent....not a bad team that the Steelers play down to their level. Also, why don't the elite skill players win the games for the Steelers?

If the Ravens are talented enough to beat the Steelers, shouldn't they be able to beat other teams more easily....particularly since you believe Tomlin's teams aren't prepared?

I just don't get the correlation to Tomlin's teams being unprepared yet going 13-3.....but Harbaugh's well prepared teams being able to play well against the Steelers and struggling against anyone else. It shows that Harbaugh is the one struggling here, not the other way around.

I know that having great skill players helps, but some of that is overblown. "Experts" say Ben's weapons are carrying him, yet they have been playing without the full complement of the vaunted weapons for years now. Bell has been suspended multiple times and has had a ton of time missed with injuries. Martavis Bryant would either be suspended or injured most of his time here. AB and Ben are the only two that seem to be on the field all the time. JuJu is only in the NFL for a year and a half now, and they haven't had a good tight end in years. This has been going on for years now. "The Steelers have the best weapons in the league".....but they are never on the field at the same time.

What say you?

:tea:

[Psycho Ward 86]

https://steelersdepot.com/2018/11/ravens-injury-report-baltimore-ol-in-bad-shape-for-sundays-game/

Ravens will be down both of their starting tackles and questionable with their top guards who have missed time. I expect a big game from the front 7

[AtlantaDan]

How dare you disagree with me! :rofl2:

I have a couple questions for you.

If Tomlin's teams play down to their competition, how have the Ravens been beating them when they are a hated division rival and a team that is generally competing for the division title every year? Aren't those the teams that Tomlin teams play well against?

If the Ravens simply don't have the skill players the Steelers have to pull out games, how does that explain how they manage to outplay the Steelers on a fairly regular basis and win those games? Again, the Ravens are a worthy opponent....not a bad team that the Steelers play down to their level. Also, why don't the elite skill players win the games for the Steelers?

If the Ravens are talented enough to beat the Steelers, shouldn't they be able to beat other teams more easily....particularly since you believe Tomlin's teams aren't prepared?

I just don't get the correlation to Tomlin's teams being unprepared yet going 13-3.....but Harbaugh's well prepared teams being able to play well against the Steelers and struggling against anyone else. It shows that Harbaugh is the one struggling here, not the other way around.

I know that having great skill players helps, but some of that is overblown. "Experts" say Ben's weapons are carrying him, yet they have been playing without the full complement of the vaunted weapons for years now. Bell has been suspended multiple times and has had a ton of time missed with injuries. Martavis Bryant would either be suspended or injured most of his time here. AB and Ben are the only two that seem to be on the field all the time. JuJu is only in the NFL for a year and a half now, and they haven't had a good tight end in years. This has been going on for years now. "The Steelers have the best weapons in the league".....but they are never on the field at the same time.

What say you?

:tea:

FWIW I think the main difference between the Steelers and Ravens overall record over the past 5 years is that Ben is better than Flacco. I was not playing the ridiculous game that the Steelers offense carries Ben.

And the shortcomings on offense with the available players was a shot at Haley, not Tomlin (as supported by the red zone success this season as opposed to prior seasons under Coach Todd while Bell has been AWOL). Tomlin is regarded as having focused his efforts in recent years on being more involved with the defense - given the results there hard to say that reflects well on his coaching skills.

But on the core issue of Tomlin having the team ready for every game, I will defer to the player I regard as one of the most insightful on the team, as quoted in this 2017 article (written immediately before the Steelers lost to the great Mike Glennon (for the second time after a previous home loss when Glennon played for Tampa) and the Bears in Chicago as 7&1/2 point favorites).

The reputation for playing down to inferior foes was sealed by the Steelers in 2014 and stayed with them (some say their losses at Philadelphia and Miami last year should be included) and they know that’s their reputation.

“Yeah, we definitely do,’’ All-Pro guard David DeCastro said. “You try to treat everyone the same. Human nature is part of it. They maybe give us a better shot because of who we are. I don’t know if they treat the Steelers differently. It doesn’t matter, we have to come out here as professionals and treat everyone the same.”

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2017/09/22/bears-mike-glennon-fantasy-steelers-week-3-nfl-underdogs/stories/201709220062


Players obviously should be accountable but IMO that also is on the head coach.

And as far as other examples of being ready to play, add to that incidents from the 2017 season such as: the Steelers standing around on the sidelines while Al Riveron botched the Jesse James replay review rather then be certain of the next two plays to run if the catch was overturned, with catastrophic results; the awful start to the Jax playoff game book ended by the horrible clock management at the end of it; and Tomlin's teams repeatedly coming out flat against inferior teams in 2017 (even in victories such as the Colts win last season where they fell behind 17-0).

So I do not see the proximate cause of the Steelers better overall record than the Ravens during the Ravens recent playoff drought being attributed to Tomlin's superior skills in having his team ready to play, a flaw for which he has been criticized for years. He has worked with a superior roster over the past several years and talent usually wins wins out over the course of a season.

Consider the possibility the Ravens record against the Steelers simply reflects the confidence and familiarity of a division rival that they can beat a team they play twice a year despite not being as talented, just as the Steelers assume they will beat the Bengals regardless of who is wearing the uniform that day.

:drink:

[Mojouw]

Ok. Everyone wants to use this issue. And there is a ton of legit reasons for doing so.

But what exactly is "getting a team ready to play"? Like how do we break that down into useful units if analysis. Is it a game plan? Play calling? Or can we only see it when a team loses? How do we explain a team that looks locked and loaded in many games? It's the same staff doing the same prep.

I feel like this is a concept talking heads and pundits turn too because actual explanation is too complex.

Almost every time this gets levelled at the Steekers it isn't like guys ran the wrong routes or dropped a ton of passes or something. Usually it is they went out and got their asses kicked on one or both sides of the line of scrimmage battle.

[Shoes]

Ok. Everyone wants to use this issue. And there is a ton of legit reasons for doing so.

But what exactly is "getting a team ready to play"? Like how do we break that down into useful units if analysis. Is it a game plan? Play calling? Or can we only see it when a team loses? How do we explain a team that looks locked and loaded in many games? It's the same staff doing the same prep.

I feel like this is a concept talking heads and pundits turn too because actual explanation is too complex.

Almost every time this gets levelled at the Steekers it isn't like guys ran the wrong routes or dropped a ton of passes or something. Usually it is they went out and got their asses kicked on one or both sides of the line of scrimmage battle.


For Flacco this week, it was shaving his beard.

[pczach]

FWIW I think the main difference between the Steelers and Ravens overall record over the past 5 years is that Ben is better than Flacco. I was not playing the ridiculous game that the Steelers offense carries Ben.

And the shortcomings on offense with the available players was a shot at Haley, not Tomlin (as supported by the red zone success this season as opposed to prior seasons under Coach Todd while Bell has been AWOL). Tomlin is regarded as having focused his efforts in recent years on being more involved with the defense - given the results there hard to say that reflects well on his coaching skills.

But on the core issue of Tomlin having the team ready for every game, I will defer to the player I regard as one of the most insightful on the team, as quoted in this 2017 article (written immediately before the Steelers lost to the great Mike Glennon (for the second time after a previous home loss when Glennon played for Tampa) and the Bears in Chicago as 7&1/2 point favorites).

The reputation for playing down to inferior foes was sealed by the Steelers in 2014 and stayed with them (some say their losses at Philadelphia and Miami last year should be included) and they know that’s their reputation.

“Yeah, we definitely do,’’ All-Pro guard David DeCastro said. “You try to treat everyone the same. Human nature is part of it. They maybe give us a better shot because of who we are. I don’t know if they treat the Steelers differently. It doesn’t matter, we have to come out here as professionals and treat everyone the same.”

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2017/09/22/bears-mike-glennon-fantasy-steelers-week-3-nfl-underdogs/stories/201709220062


Players obviously should be accountable but IMO that also is on the head coach.

And as far as other examples of being ready to play, add to that incidents from the 2017 season such as: the Steelers standing around on the sidelines while Al Riveron botched the Jesse James replay review rather then be certain of the next two plays to run if the catch was overturned, with catastrophic results; the awful start to the Jax playoff game book ended by the horrible clock management at the end of it; and Tomlin's teams repeatedly coming out flat against inferior teams in 2017 (even in victories such as the Colts win last season where they fell behind 17-0).

So I do not see the proximate cause of the Steelers better overall record than the Ravens during the Ravens recent playoff drought being attributed to Tomlin's superior skills in having his team ready to play, a flaw for which he has been criticized for years. He has worked with a superior roster over the past several years and talent usually wins wins out over the course of a season.

Consider the possibility the Ravens record against the Steelers simply reflects the confidence and familiarity of a division rival that they can beat a team they play twice a year despite not being as talented, just as the Steelers assume they will beat the Bengals regardless of who is wearing the uniform that day.

:drink:



Sorry, I wasn't implying that you were saying Ben wasn't good. I was simply quoting some experts about the weapons carrying him and making the point that the weapons don't help anyone when they aren't on the field. I think the weapons thing is overdone when you consider how often those "weapons" haven't been on the field.

As for the playing down to the opponents, clock management, and sideline confusion....it's awkward at times, but I don't think it's out of line with nearly any NFL team if you watch enough football. Every game I watch seems to have a handful of moments that have you scratching your head. I think Steelers fans many times only concentrate on their own team and don't always see how these things happen with every team.

Again, if a team wins 13 games, they can't be playing down to too many opponents.

I do think that Tomlin can do some things better, but I believe he does a lot of things very well. When I compare that to what I see watching other teams, it puts things in perspective for me.

The other thing is that my original post that you responded to was about what the Ravens do, not the Steelers. I'm just curious on how you explain the Ravens losing all these games if you think they have a good coach and a team that doesn't play down to their competition?

I think many just try to put too much blame on the head coach. If the team is so talented that they should be blowing teams off the field and winning Super Bowls, how is it we hear so much criticism of the defense and the talent on the team from some of the same people that blame Tomlin for the team underperforming?

Or is it that the team just isn't talented enough, and Tomlin gets blamed for not acquiring enough talent?

Is it that he and his staff simply can't coach players to get better and improve at their craft?

I get that Tomlin has a lot to say in the personnel decisions and some to say on the draft, but it seems at times that critics of Tomlin want to be able to crush him both ways. Either he has all the talent in the world and can't coach....or he can't acquire talent and the team just isn't good enough to really win. To me, I don't think you can have it both ways.

We'll probably never completely agree on this. I just find it easier to see things more the way I do if you break down other coaches performances the same way you do about Tomlin. Then you have to be honest enough with yourself when grading things out and making a final determination.

Does any of this sound familiar? https://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/11/nfl-ravens-john-harbaugh-bernard-pollard


By: Steven Ruiz (https://ftw.usatoday.com/author/steven-ruiz) | November 6, 2017 3:26 pm

There are many reasons for the Baltimore Ravens’ uneven play since their Super Bowl win back in 2012. According to a member of that championship team, John Harbaugh’s ego is at the top of the list
.
Former NFL safety Bernard Pollard, who spent two seasons with the Ravens before being released following the Super Bowl win, doubled down on a 2016 tweet criticizing Harbaugh after the team’s 23-20 loss in Tennessee on Sunday.

For all we know Harbaugh is a bad coach who’s been propped up by those working behind the scenes (doubtful), but to blame him for the Ravens’ fall is completely unfair. That Baltimore roster was aging and needed a lot of luck to win the one Lombardi Trophy. Winning two or three is just unrealistic.

[polamalubeast]

Ok. Everyone wants to use this issue. And there is a ton of legit reasons for doing so.

But what exactly is "getting a team ready to play"? Like how do we break that down into useful units if analysis. Is it a game plan? Play calling? Or can we only see it when a team loses? How do we explain a team that looks locked and loaded in many games? It's the same staff doing the same prep.

I feel like this is a concept talking heads and pundits turn too because actual explanation is too complex.

Almost every time this gets levelled at the Steekers it isn't like guys ran the wrong routes or dropped a ton of passes or something. Usually it is they went out and got their asses kicked on one or both sides of the line of scrimmage battle.

When we are the worst team in the first quarter this year .....

[Mojouw]

When we are the worst team in the first quarter this year .....

And I think the best team in the second quarter. So where does that leave us? Tomlin can't coach in the 1st quarter, but he is a house of fire in the 2nd?

Also the best in 2 minute and 4 minute end of half and end of game drives. That's situational football - something coaches can decidedly impact.

[polamalubeast]

The problem of the ravens, they are unable to make comebacks wins ....

Sometimes it's on Flacco, sometimes it's on defense or luck, but one thing is certain, Flacco and the Ravens have not made a 4th quarter comeback since the week 3 in 2016, which is why Ravens have a bad record despite their great points differenciel.I mean, the steelers have at least 10 or close of that 4th quarter comebacks wins since the 2016 season ....

- - - Updated - - -


And I think the best team in the second quarter. So where does that leave us? Tomlin can't coach in the 1st quarter, but he is a house of fire in the 2nd?

Also the best in 2 minute and 4 minute end of half and end of game drives. That's situational football - something coaches can decidedly impact.

When you're not good in the first quarter, sometimes it means when your team is not extremely well prepared.Maybe this stats is a fluke, but the slow starts is a major problem since the second half of last year.

But agree on the 2 and 4 minutes offense.

[AtlantaDan]

Ok. Everyone wants to use this issue. And there is a ton of legit reasons for doing so.

But what exactly is "getting a team ready to play"?

To me a big part of it is taking care of business against the teams you are supposed to beat. Anyone can be fired up for big regular season games and the playoffs. Having your players focused when they are between important games and are apt to assume they can mail it in (aka the trap game) is where the approach of the head coach pays off, not just with the players but with the assistant coaches.

This from the great Paul Zimmerman (aka Dr. Z) - RIP

Here is my all time favorite football statistic. For the 1972-79 seasons, when the Pittsburgh Steelers made the playoffs every year and won four Super Bowls, do you know what their record was against teams that finished the regular season below .500? It was 50-1.

Let it sink in for a moment. Eight years of steadily beating up on the bad teams.

https://www.si.com/vault/1989/01/02/119164/los-angeles-rams-vs-pittsburgh-steelers-super-bowl-xiv-the-best-ever-played-the-lead-changed-hands-seven-times-before-the-steelers-won-their-fourth-title-but-the-dynasty-was-fading-and-this-was-the-last

Obviously those 70s teams had incredible talent and players who reinforced the head coach's message, but a big part of the greatness of Noll was in a non-emotional approach to having his team ready to play not just the 70s Raiders and Cowboys in the playoffs but the mid-70s Chiefs in late October. I would wager Landry's Cowboy's and Madden's Raiders of that era cannot match that record cited by Dr. Z.

Probably having known about that stat from Dr. Z for some time is part of what aggravates me about the annual brain cramps from the Steelers. FWIW circle the Raiders game later this season on your calendar.

[Mojouw]

To me a big part of it is taking care of business against the teams you are supposed to beat. Anyone can be fired up for big regular season games and the playoffs. Having your players focused when they are between important games and are apt to assume they can mail it in (aka the trap game) is where the approach of the head coach pays off, not just with the players but with the assistant coaches.

This from the great Paul Zimmerman (aka Dr. Z) - RIP

Here is my all time favorite football statistic. For the 1972-79 seasons, when the Pittsburgh Steelers made the playoffs every year and won four Super Bowls, do you know what their record was against teams that finished the regular season below .500? It was 50-1.

Let it sink in for a moment. Eight years of steadily beating up on the bad teams.

https://www.si.com/vault/1989/01/02/119164/los-angeles-rams-vs-pittsburgh-steelers-super-bowl-xiv-the-best-ever-played-the-lead-changed-hands-seven-times-before-the-steelers-won-their-fourth-title-but-the-dynasty-was-fading-and-this-was-the-last

Obviously those 70s teams had incredible talent and players who reinforced the head coach's message, but a big part of the greatness of Noll was in a non-emotional approach to having his team ready to play not just the 70s Raiders and Cowboys in the playoffs but the mid-70s Chiefs in late October. I would wager Landry's Cowboy's and Madden's Raiders of that era cannot match that record cited by Dr. Z.

Probably having known about that stat from Dr. Z for some time is part of what aggravates me about the annual brain cramps from the Steelers. FWIW circle the Raiders game later this season on your calendar.

Ok. But what is it for a team in the salary cap enforced parity era? Pre cap half your second string could be better than most teams starters.

[AtlantaDan]

Ok. But what is it for a team in the salary cap enforced parity era? Pre cap half your second string could be better than most teams starters.

All I can do is cite the stat - I trust Zimmerman's expertise enough that I doubt 50-1 against teams with losing records over 8 years was typical for top teams pre-salary cap

Post-salary cap anyone on this board knows the Tomlin Steelers screw up annually against bad teams - maybe it is typical but I doubt it - and DeCastro admitting it is significant to me

Are you contending the Tomlin Steelers annual brain cramps are typical for winning teams post-salary cap?

[Mojouw]

All I can do is cite the stat - I trust Zimmerman's expertise enough that I doubt 50-1 against teams with losing records over 8 years was typical for top teams pre-salary cap

Post-salary cap anyone on this board knows the Tomlin Steelers screw up annually against bad teams - maybe it is typical but I doubt it - and DeCastro admitting it is significant to me

Are you contending the Tomlin Steelers annual brain cramps are typical for winning teams post-salary cap?

I'm saying I have no idea. And I do not believe in comparisons across eras. Too much has changed to be certain the comparison is valid.

Gotta compare apples to apples so to speak. Teegre has brought the point up that when is the sub 500 record identified - when the teams play or at the end of the season? That dramatically changes things. I feel like others have demonstrated that much of the losing to bad teams narrative is based on week to week over reactions rather than season long context.

I don't have time to do it now, but someone should look at it again. Then see what the Saints, Packers, Payriots, Ravens, Colts, Seahawks or other comparable teams from the last 10 years did.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[polamalubeast]

Sometimes we do not know if it's a bad team or not.

For the rest of the year, the only bad team we will play are the raiders .... The Broncos are not very good, but this is never easy to play in Denver and the broncos have played some close games against the rams and the chiefs this year at home.

But no reason to lose twice at home in the playoffs against the worst team in the NFL (jaguars) in the last 15 years (other than the browns)....It's just embarrassing and listen the comments of Mike Mitchell and Le'Veon Bell before the playoff game, the steelers were more focused on the pats than other things and nobody can tell me the opposite otherwise you have to watch the interview of Tomlin with Dungy

[Craic]

For all the negativity and whatnot thrown at the first game, it might do us well to remember that we were only down by 3 points headed into the fourth quarter. During that time, we were missing key players and were in a slump overall. This really does not feel like the same team.

[teegre]

If the Steelers win out, Harbaugh would still be a better coach, because Tomlin’s teams get outscored in the first quarter.

#facts
#thefinalscoreisirrelevant
#Harbaughownsthefirstquarter

[Fire Goodell]

I have a feeling that Harbaugh plans for the Steelers 2 weeks in advance. Anyone notice a trend that the week before the Ravens play the Steelers, they shit the bed a lot, only to come back and play their game of the year against us?

[teegre]

I have a feeling that Harbaugh plans for the Steelers 2 weeks in advance. Anyone notice a trend that the week before the Ravens play the Steelers, they shit the bed a lot, only to come back and play their game of the year against us?

2013: lost game before first matchup
2014: :nod:
2015: :nod:
2016: lost game before first matchup
2017: obliterated before first matchup

[86WARD]

I have a feeling that Harbaugh plans for the Steelers 2 weeks in advance. Anyone notice a trend that the week before the Ravens play the Steelers, they shit the bed a lot, only to come back and play their game of the year against us?

So you think he schemes against the Steelers, plays said team with that game plan, then tweaks and comes at the real Steelers? It’s a good observation if it holds true. Great observation actually.

[polamalubeast]

John Harbaugh is on the Hot seat...

1059038569824546816



Be ready ... The ravens will empty their playbook today, since their game is as important as a playoff game and this is against the Steelers.

- - - Updated - - -

The Ravens have not won a game decided by 6 points or less in almost 2 years!!!!!

[polamalubeast]

1059055052705460224


For a second time in 2 games, a head coach could lose his job after a defeat against the steelers!

It also happened 2 times in a row to the 2010 Packers that the opponents had fired their head coach after a defeat against the packers.

[polamalubeast]

John Harbaugh could be the head coach of the Browns next year if he is fired by the Ravens too

[AtlantaDan]

The other thing is that my original post that you responded to was about what the Ravens do, not the Steelers. I'm just curious on how you explain the Ravens losing all these games if you think they have a good coach and a team that doesn't play down to their competition?

Harbaugh and Tomlin both had their greatest success in the first part of their HC careers (Tomlin 2 Super Bowl appearances from 2007-2010/ Harbaugh three AFC championship games and one Super Bowl from 2008-2012)

In looking at the period from 2013-2018, which I assume is the period to which you may be referring when Harbaugh has been "losing all these games," Harbaugh's regular season record overall is 44-44 and his record is 7-5 against the Steelers. Not much of a disparity.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/index.htm
https://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/teamvsteam?opp=3

During that same period from 2013-2018 Tomlin's regular season record is 57-29-1 but only 5-7 against the Ravens. That is a significant disparity.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/index.htm

So I guess the question may be not why do Harbaugh's teams outperform their overall record when playing against the Steelers (they have not) but why do Tomlin's teams significantly underperform their overall record since 2013 against a .500 team like the Ravens.

It may just be due to division rivalries being played twice a year there is greater familiarity with the opposing coaches & players that distorts the expected result based on the overall respective talent of the teams (e.g. - based on the Bengals going to the playoffs 3 times since 2013 and having an overall regular season record of 51-35-1 since 2013, you would not expect the Steelers to have dominated the Bengals 10-2 during that time).

https://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/teamvsteam?opp=7

Then again maybe Tomlin just has problems in rivalry games not involving the Bengals rather than the Pats and Ravens :noidea:

[stillers4me]

Ravens fans are saying that if the Ravens lose this game, the countdown to the firing of Harbaugh begins...

1059070385210228736

[teegre]

In the 90s... specifically 1992-1997, when Washington sucked and Dallas was a juggernaut, they played 12 games. It was an even split 6-6.

#rivalriesmatter
#throwtherecordsout
#SuperBowlXXXstillhauntsme

[43Hitman]

In the 90s... specifically 1992-1997, when Washington sucked and Dallas was a juggernaut, they played 12 games. It was an even split 6-6.

#rivalriesmatter
#throwtherecordsout
#SuperBowlXXXstillhauntsme

The most painful Steeler game I have ever endured.

#screwNeil

[86WARD]

Harbaugh not getting fired if they lose. That’s nonsense.

[Mojouw]

Harbaugh and Tomlin both had their greatest success in the first part of their HC careers (Tomlin 2 Super Bowl appearances from 2007-2010/ Harbaugh three AFC championship games and one Super Bowl from 2008-2012)

In looking at the period from 2013-2018, which I assume is the period to which you may be referring when Harbaugh has been "losing all these games," Harbaugh's regular season record overall is 44-44 and his record is 7-5 against the Steelers. Not much of a disparity.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/index.htm
https://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/teamvsteam?opp=3

During that same period from 2013-2018 Tomlin's regular season record is 57-29-1 but only 5-7 against the Ravens. That is a significant disparity.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/index.htm

So I guess the question may be not why do Harbaugh's teams outperform their overall record when playing against the Steelers (they have not) but why do Tomlin's teams significantly underperform their overall record since 2013 against a .500 team like the Ravens.

It may just be due to division rivalries being played twice a year there is greater familiarity with the opposing coaches & players that distorts the expected result based on the overall respective talent of the teams (e.g. - based on the Bengals going to the playoffs 3 times since 2013 and having an overall regular season record of 51-35-1 since 2013, you would not expect the Steelers to have dominated the Bengals 10-2 during that time).

https://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/teamvsteam?opp=7

Then again maybe Tomlin just has problems in rivalry games not involving the Bengals rather than the Pats and Ravens :noidea:

How many of those 7 loses were with the Steelers starting a back-up QB? I can't remember, but if it is even 2 then the apparent statistical "disparity" essentially explains itself.

[polamalubeast]

How many of those 7 loses were with the Steelers starting a back-up QB? I can't remember, but if it is even 2 then the apparent statistical "disparity" essentially explains itself.

Only once(week 4 in 2015) since 2013.

[Mojouw]

Only once(week 4 in 2015) since 2013.

OK. So that was an OT loss at home. Figure with Ben playing that is a win. So now it is 6-7.

I;m not saying that they should or could win a few more games against the Ravens, but the disparity seems to be a bit weaker than initial inspection would lead us to believe.

[43Hitman]

Wrong Thread. Doh!