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AtlantaDan
10-05-2018, 11:13 AM
One possible reason we are not hearing as much about Heyward and Tuitt during games - they are not playing as much

The Steelers’ best sacker — All-Pro defensive end Cam Heyward, who tied for eighth in NFL with 12 sacks in 2017 — was on the sideline for 20 of the Ravens’ 76 offensive snaps. A week earlier in Tampa, Heyward did not play 19 of the Buccaneers’ 73 offensive plays. Was he gassed from the Florida humidity? Injured?

No, it’s just part of a rotation implemented by new defensive line coach Karl Dunbar... The big picture here is Dunbar is hoping to keep them as fresh as possible late in the season by rotating them on a semi-regular basis with Tyson Alualu, Dan McCullers and L.T. Walton....

Heyward has already sat out 60 of the 296 defensive snaps through four games. Tuitt has been on the sideline for 67 snaps. Neither player is injured.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/10/05/steelers-defensive-line-rotation-cam-heyward-stephon-tuitt-karl-dunbar/stories/201810050089

Good to know Heyward and Tuitt will be fresh for the big push in December to hit .500 for the season after the Steelers have long been out of the playoff race

Another breakthrough from the masterminds who thought they could skate by not meaningfully addressing the problems at ILB - more playing time for Dan McCullers has been what this defense has been missing for years

Edman
10-05-2018, 11:20 AM
Keystone Cops.

AtlantaDan
10-05-2018, 11:29 AM
Keystone Cops.

Yep - at least now I know what was going on when I was at the Chiefs game with D-linemen frantically running on and off the field while barely having time to get set before the snap

Mojouw
10-05-2018, 11:31 AM
Playing 80-90% of the defensive snaps all year likely had nothing to do with getting blown off the ball in the playoffs.

This is what good teams do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

AtlantaDan
10-05-2018, 11:45 AM
Playing 80-90% of the defensive snaps all year likely had nothing to do with getting blown off the ball in the playoffs.

This is what good teams do.

Not certain if you are contending more rest for Heyward & Tuitt would have reduced the D-line getting dominated in the Jax playoff game

Tuitt being injured probably had more to do with his play in the Jax playoff game than his snap count in 2017

Good teams get the rotation coached up so the players are not running on and off the field before the snap because they do not appear to know if they should be on or off the field - and if you are going to rotate best to do it for a reason other than just doing it if the backup is a multi-year mediocrity like McCullers

Fire Goodell
10-05-2018, 11:48 AM
Tuitt is going the way of Jason GilDong (underperforming ever since he got his big contract)

Mojouw
10-05-2018, 11:57 AM
Not certain if you are contending more rest for Heyward & Tuitt would have reduced the D-line getting dominated in the Jax playoff game

Tuitt being injured probably had more to do with his play in the Jax playoff game than his snap count in 2017

Good teams get the rotation coached up so the players are not running on and off the field before the snap because they do not appear to know if they should be on or off the field - and if you are going to rotate best to do it for a reason other than just doing it if the backup is a multi-year mediocrity like McCullers
Last two seasons or so, both Heyward and Tuitt have specifically discussed how playing so many snaps sapped their legs by the latter portions of the season. I do not see what is unreasonable about hypothesizing that playing a ton of snaps by game 17+ of the season leads to tired legs that can get pushed around. It isn’t a revolutionary idea.

As to bad players getting the snaps, well Alualau, McCullers, and Walton have all earned playing time by performing well in limited opportunities or during the preseason.

The part I will certainly agree to is that the entire defense needs to know better who is going over the boards when so to speak.

steelreserve
10-05-2018, 12:32 PM
Last two seasons or so, both Heyward and Tuitt have specifically discussed how playing so many snaps sapped their legs by the latter portions of the season. I do not see what is unreasonable about hypothesizing that playing a ton of snaps by game 17+ of the season leads to tired legs that can get pushed around. It isn’t a revolutionary idea.

As to bad players getting the snaps, well Alualau, McCullers, and Walton have all earned playing time by performing well in limited opportunities or during the preseason.

The part I will certainly agree to is that the entire defense needs to know better who is going over the boards when so to speak.


How is that even possible. Unless you are actually injured from those snaps, you are talking about perhaps 10-15 more minutes of actual physical exertion over the course of four months.

Within an individual game, the number of snaps can make you tired. Within a season, the number of snaps can make you beat-up, but not tired.

DesertSteel
10-05-2018, 12:50 PM
How is that even possible.
Right! I don't know why players aren't two-way like the old days! They get a halftime to rest. Isn't that enough?!

Mojouw
10-05-2018, 12:54 PM
How is that even possible. Unless you are actually injured from those snaps, you are talking about perhaps 10-15 more minutes of actual physical exertion over the course of four months.

Within an individual game, the number of snaps can make you tired. Within a season, the number of snaps can make you beat-up, but not tired.

Look. I'm just the messenger here. Heyward has specifically discussed how playing as many snaps per game as he does takes a toll over the course of a season. He has been talking about it since like 2015 or so. I seem to remember he has actively discussed how over the course of a season you lose a bit the more snaps you play. Former players also commonly talk about this.

Again, I think that a defensive line rotation is a good idea. maybe the team doesn't have the right players. maybe their coordination of it sucks. but the underlying idea is extremely sound.

Fire Goodell
10-05-2018, 01:05 PM
Right! I don't know why players aren't two-way like the old days! They get a halftime to rest. Isn't that enough?!

Heck I always wondered that. I played WR/Safety in HS and special teams, I basically never came off the field, ever. Never got tired. Only time I got injured was in practice getting blidsided.

I know, I know, not the 'pro' level, but shouldn't elite athletes be in a lot better shape than average joes who played for fun? Not to mention we don't get 2 minute warnings and TV timeouts which meant less rest time.

steelreserve
10-05-2018, 02:17 PM
Look. I'm just the messenger here. Heyward has specifically discussed how playing as many snaps per game as he does takes a toll over the course of a season. He has been talking about it since like 2015 or so. I seem to remember he has actively discussed how over the course of a season you lose a bit the more snaps you play. Former players also commonly talk about this.

Again, I think that a defensive line rotation is a good idea. maybe the team doesn't have the right players. maybe their coordination of it sucks. but the underlying idea is extremely sound.


Yeah, maybe I am just splitting hairs between "tired" and "physically worn down," but it's not like the end result is any different. The more you play, the more you are going to take a beating and of course it will catch up with you.

Our problem is that we kind of need Heyward and Tuitt on the field because the dropoff behind them is really noticeable. Sure, it's not as horrid as the Cam Thomas-McLendon-Walton rotation we had a few years ago, but not by a whole lot. Alualu is better than Thomas, but the other ones are literally the same players, and not really any better than they used to be.

Hargrave was really promising his first season, but has turned into the Invisible Man. What happened to him? He was kind of the key that was going to make the 3-man front work, as well as give a breather to Heyward and Tuitt while keeping someone competent on the field in their place. Do we need another starter-quality defensive tackle now?

86WARD
10-05-2018, 06:20 PM
Playing 80-90% of the defensive snaps all year likely had nothing to do with getting blown off the ball in the playoffs.

This is what good teams do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good teams also have quality depth. Look at the Eagles D-Line rotation...

NCSteeler
10-05-2018, 06:27 PM
Duh

BlackAndGold
10-05-2018, 06:31 PM
Seems to be their adjusting to getting their ass kicked every week.

Tuitt is basically stealing money like Woodley did. All that talent is being wasted.

Born2Steel
10-05-2018, 08:02 PM
You rotate DL on possessions, not downs. Unless there is an injury DL play the series.

pczach
10-06-2018, 07:36 AM
You rotate DL on possessions, not downs. Unless there is an injury DL play the series.



When I see DL players being rotated in during series, I always think to myself......how the hell are they giving these guys rest when they need to run 30 yards to get off or on to the field?

Some of these defenses have gotten so dependent on sub packages that they are wearing out players running them on/off the field as offenses run more fast-paced offenses that stress defenses and run more plays.

Somebody needs to come up with an innovative defense that changes the balance of power so offenses can't dictate everything.

teegre
10-06-2018, 08:05 AM
You rotate DL on possessions, not downs. Unless there is an injury DL play the series.

:nod:

btw: This is the ultimate “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” topic. For years, people have griped that Tomlin was playing Heyward (and Tuitt) too much. Then, when Tomlin plays them less, people are still griping.

SUMMATION:
I think that people simply like to gripe.

AtlantaDan
10-06-2018, 09:01 AM
You rotate DL on possessions, not downs. Unless there is an injury DL play the series.

Was not working that way in the Chiefs game - more of a mix and match (or simply random chaos) system

But we are talking about a defense that is reinventing football with such schemes as ending up with Vince Williams isolated on a receiver split wide left (Mojouw previously linked to an excellent article on how the Chiefs toyed with Butler's defensive alignments), so rotating DL play to play obviously is part of the master plan rather than another indication Butler is in deep water over his head and sinking fast




SUMMATION:
I think that people simply like to gripe.

Respectfully disagree - IMO griping is when your team wins the game and someone complains about AB being targeted too much or the defense allowing too many conversions on third and long

Criticizing a defense that is in free fall is more along the line of pointing out, to quote Chuck Noll, that the Steelers "problems are great, and they are many"

To quote Coach Noll again, with regard to who on the 2018 Steelers defensive coaching staff and roster should move on to their life's work outside of football, "The problem isn't cutting, it's stopping."

Hawkman
10-06-2018, 01:03 PM
:
SUMMATION:
I think that people simply like to gripe.

That’s sort of a “BINGO” moment.:heh:

Mojouw
10-06-2018, 01:48 PM
:nod:

btw: This is the ultimate “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” topic. For years, people have griped that Tomlin was playing Heyward (and Tuitt) too much. Then, when Tomlin plays them less, people are still griping.

SUMMATION:
I think that people simply like to gripe.


That’s sort of a “BINGO” moment.:heh:

https://media.giphy.com/media/FlYgLKL0RuKli/giphy.gif

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-06-2018, 03:49 PM
When I see DL players being rotated in during series, I always think to myself......how the hell are they giving these guys rest when they need to run 30 yards to get off or on to the field?

Some of these defenses have gotten so dependent on sub packages that they are wearing out players running them on/off the field as offenses run more fast-paced offenses that stress defenses and run more plays.

Somebody needs to come up with an innovative defense that changes the balance of power so offenses can't dictate everything.
Trying to push an offensive lineman against his will, is similar to pushing a weighted prowler sled in the amount of energy expended. After a D lineman does that 6 or 7 plays in a row, on a sustained drive, there is value in bringing in a fresh D-lineman IMO.

The jog off the field is substantially less strenuous than trying to bull rush an offensive lineman, from my experience.

tube517
10-06-2018, 05:32 PM
When I see DL players being rotated in during series, I always think to myself......how the hell are they giving these guys rest when they need to run 30 yards to get off or on to the field?

Some of these defenses have gotten so dependent on sub packages that they are wearing out players running them on/off the field as offenses run more fast-paced offenses that stress defenses and run more plays.

Somebody needs to come up with an innovative defense that changes the balance of power so offenses can't dictate everything.

Didn't they used to roll Big Snack off the field and throw in Chris Hoke?

pczach
10-06-2018, 09:53 PM
Trying to push an offensive lineman against his will, is similar to pushing a weighted prowler sled in the amount of energy expended. After a D lineman does that 6 or 7 plays in a row, on a sustained drive, there is value in bringing in a fresh D-lineman IMO.

The jog off the field is substantially less strenuous than trying to bull rush an offensive lineman, from my experience.




Yeah, I get that, but I'm not talking about a jog off the field. I'm talking about sprinting off or on the field.

It depends on how you do it. If you pull a guy off the field and give him 3-4 snaps off, there is definitely some good in it, and a player gets a second wind.

If you just pull a guy off the field for one play and make him run off the field, and then he's running back in the game for the next snap for the matchup, it can get silly pretty quickly. Also, many times with offenses running quick plays and hurry up, a player running onto the field often doesn't even get fully set or have the full defensive call.

My point is that IMO teams have gotten so dependent on sub packages and personnel groups that they outthink themselves sometimes and create their own issues and confusion, while not really resting starters all that much when they have to run full speed off the field at times to avoid too many men on the field penalties, or onto the field to get enough personnel on the field to run a play...and when they do they're late and out of position while his teammates are trying to get them lined up.

Mojouw
10-06-2018, 10:39 PM
Yeah, I get that, but I'm not talking about a jog off the field. I'm talking about sprinting off or on the field.

It depends on how you do it. If you pull a guy off the field and give him 3-4 snaps off, there is definitely some good in it, and a player gets a second wind.

If you just pull a guy off the field for one play and make him run off the field, and then he's running back in the game for the next snap for the matchup, it can get silly pretty quickly. Also, many times with offenses running quick plays and hurry up, a player running onto the field often doesn't even get fully set or have the full defensive call.

My point is that IMO teams have gotten so dependent on sub packages and personnel groups that they outthink themselves sometimes and create their own issues and confusion, while not really resting starters all that much when they have to run full speed off the field at times to avoid too many men on the field penalties, or onto the field to get enough personnel on the field to run a play...and when they do they're late and out of position while his teammates are trying to get them lined up.

I know many of my posts make it seem like I'm on the other side of this but I get what your saying.

I agree in that defense is doing traditional things and offenses are on to next level stuff.

teegre
10-07-2018, 09:15 AM
Respectfully disagree - IMO griping is when your team wins the game and someone complains about AB being targeted too much or the defense allowing too many conversions on third and long

Criticizing a defense that is in free fall is more along the line of pointing out, to quote Chuck Noll, that the Steelers "problems are great, and they are many"

To quote Coach Noll again, with regard to who on the 2018 Steelers defensive coaching staff and roster should move on to their life's work outside of football, "The problem isn't cutting, it's stopping."

I see your point... which is valid.

Here’s an analogy.
There is a raging fire. The fire department shows up and uses the 30 foot hoses (water). The peanut gallery yells at the firemen that they should be using the 50 foot hoses (to get closer)... to which the peanut gallery screams that the firemen should switch back to the 30 foot hoses.

Meanwhile, there is only one hydrant (when there should be three or four).

Of course, if there were more hydrants, the peanut gallery would complain about the hydrants being an eye sore... although, they’d no longer be dealing with a fire.

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-07-2018, 09:21 AM
I see your point... which is valid.

Here’s an analogy.
There is a raging fire. The fire department shows up and uses the 30 foot hoses (water). The peanut gallery yells at the firemen that they should be using the 50 foot hoses (to get closer)... to which the peanut gallery screams that the firemen should switch back to the 30 foot hoses.

Meanwhile, there is only one hydrant (when there should be three or four).

Of course, if there were more hydrants, the peanut gallery would complain about the hydrants being an eye sore... although, they’d no longer be dealing with a fire.

Summation: people love to complain about things, no matter the situation. (ie, complaining about weather..summer was too hot, winter was too cold)

teegre
10-07-2018, 09:30 AM
Summation: people love to complain about things, no matter the situation. (ie, complaining about weather..summer was too hot, winter was too cold)

:nod:

...especially the bolded part. :wink02:

Born2Steel
10-07-2018, 10:38 AM
Trying to push an offensive lineman against his will, is similar to pushing a weighted prowler sled in the amount of energy expended. After a D lineman does that 6 or 7 plays in a row, on a sustained drive, there is value in bringing in a fresh D-lineman IMO.

The jog off the field is substantially less strenuous than trying to bull rush an offensive lineman, from my experience.

True there is a measurable difference between rushing the OL and running to the sidelines in terms of difficulty. There is also a measure of timing and rhythm each defensive lineman gets when the ball snaps. Those OL are fighting and pushing just as hard as the DL each play. In line play it's not about winning each down, it's about setting up the other guy for a winning move for a big play. If you CAN beat the guy every down that's great, but not usual. Most plays the OL is only trying to steer a DL a foot to one direction to make a running hole or a passing lane. They have 'give aways' like in poker in how they do this. The DL learn these 'give aways' and how to exploit them through the course of the game.

I know you know all or most of this already. I'm only posting it to say it makes no sense to remove DL multiple times on a single series. This type of rotation kills any rhythm and defeats learning the OL 'give aways', plus it gives the OL a rest as well. I have not paid attention to the DL much this season because I have been watching the LBs much more closely. So if this is actually what this defense is doing I am even more disappointed now.

86WARD
10-07-2018, 10:42 AM
If you have talent depth there is no downside to a DL Rotation. None at all.

Mojouw
10-07-2018, 10:50 AM
For both the second half of the Bucs game and the Ravens game the defense was essentially on the field for the entire half. Wonder how much of that rotation was in those games?

AtlantaDan
10-07-2018, 11:31 AM
For both the second half of the Bucs game and the Ravens game the defense was essentially on the field for the entire half. Wonder how much of that rotation was in those games?

Probably not as much in the Chiefs game because Alualu was injured and did not play. That might partially explain the chaos of D linemen running on and off the field I saw at that game since someone else might have been responsible for some of Alaalu's reps and was not certain about when they were supposed to go in or out. :noidea:

But FWIW the Bouchette article said the rotation started immediately in the Ravens game rather than to address weariness as the game progressed

The difference, though, is how quickly he and Tuitt are being rotated in the new system. They both came out of the game on the first series against the Ravens and usually every fourth play thereafter.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/10/05/steelers-defensive-line-rotation-cam-heyward-stephon-tuitt-karl-dunbar/stories/201810050089

Now that Bouchette has flagged this maybe someone else will write an article crunching the numbers on how the rotation has been implemented

Mojouw
10-07-2018, 11:37 AM
Probably not as much in the Chiefs game because Alualu was injured and did not play. That might partially explain the chaos of D linemen running on and off the field I saw at that game since someone else might have been responsible for some of Alaalu's reps and was not certain about when they were supposed to go in or out. :noidea:

But FWIW the Bouchette article said the rotation started immediately in the Ravens game rather than to address weariness as the game progressed

The difference, though, is how quickly he and Tuitt are being rotated in the new system. They both came out of the game on the first series against the Ravens and usually every fourth play thereafter.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/10/05/steelers-defensive-line-rotation-cam-heyward-stephon-tuitt-karl-dunbar/stories/201810050089

Now that Bouchette has flagged this maybe someone else will write an article crunching the numbers on how the rotation has been implemented

It is a good idea. Tuitt and Heyward typically play a ludicrous # of snaps. The fact that an NFL team can't seem to get in straightened out is kinda also ludicrous. High school teams routinely do this.

I haven't watched closely enough to see if the confusion is as bad as we seem to remember or if it is just a few plays...

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-07-2018, 04:50 PM
. In line play it's not about winning each down, it's about setting up the other guy for a winning move for a big play. If you CAN beat the guy every down that's great, but not usual. Most plays the OL is only trying to steer a DL a foot to one direction to make a running hole or a passing lane. They have 'give aways' like in poker in how they do this. The DL learn these 'give aways' and how to exploit them through the course of the game.
.

This is not correct. There is no "give away " play(s) in line play. If a D lineman is taking a play off or giving it away, then he will likely get subbed out or in long term released from the team and end up driving a Fedex truck for a job.

Each play a D lineman has responsibility for a gap (or 2 in a 2 gap scheme) and they must maintain that gap integrity during the play. for instance, if a DT has the strong side B gap and the run is to the A gap next to him, then he has to "squeeze down" that gap to make the A gap smaller, or wait unti the RB has committed to the A gap before he "rips crossface" to the A gap. He has to maintain his B gap first and let the ILB responsible for the A gap make the play.

The notion of "setting a guy up' for a big play or big move is something that might come in pass rush, where a OLB that has ususally been running the outside arc, sets up an inside counter. But that runs the risk of losing gap integrity to the outside and allowing an outside run.

Playing D line is about Alignment, Assignment and then intensity of using the power, quickness and hand placement to defeat the guy across from you, while maintaining your gap integrity. It takes a lot of energy and strength endurance. This is why those that believe that you just put your best 2 or 3 D lineman in for the entire series and never rotate them out, have likely never put their hand in the dirt as a D lineman during a 7-10 play drive.

Having a solid group of 4-6 D linemen that you can rotate in to keep the maximum level of intense effort in your D line play is very important. As the game wears on, I bet that around the 5th or 6th snap, a D lineman can use a quick breather.

Mojouw
10-07-2018, 04:53 PM
This is not correct. There is no "give away " play(s) in line play. If a D lineman is taking a play off or giving it away, then he will likely get subbed out or in long term released from the team and end up driving a Fedex truck for a job.

Each play a D lineman has responsibility for a gap (or 2 in a 2 gap scheme) and they must maintain that gap integrity during the play. for instance, if a DT has the strong side B gap and the run is to the A gap next to him, then he has to "squeeze down" that gap to make the A gap smaller, or wait unti the RB has committed to the A gap before he "rips crossface" to the A gap. He has to maintain his B gap first and let the ILB responsible for the A gap make the play.

The notion of "setting a guy up' for a big play or big move is something that might come in pass rush, where a OLB that has ususally been running the outside arc, sets up an inside counter. But that runs the risk of losing gap integrity to the outside and allowing an outside run.

Playing D line is about Alignment, Assignment and then intensity of using the power, quickness and hand placement to defeat the guy across from you, while maintaining your gap integrity. It takes a lot of energy and strength endurance. This is why those that believe that you just put your best 2 or 3 D lineman in for the entire series and never rotate them out, have likely never put their hand in the dirt as a D lineman during a 7-10 play drive.

Having a solid group of 4-6 D linemen that you can rotate in to keep the maximum level of intense effort in your D line play is very important. As the game wears on, I bet that around the 5th or 6th snap, a D lineman can use a quick breather.

Nice post. Why is that folks have no problem with guys playing 30 second shifts on a PK in hockey, but just lose their minds over 300+ pound dudes taking a breather after going flat out for a handful of plays in a row?

Born2Steel
10-07-2018, 04:57 PM
This is not correct. There is no "give away " play(s) in line play. If a D lineman is taking a play off or giving it away, then he will likely get subbed out or in long term released from the team and end up driving a Fedex truck for a job.

Each play a D lineman has responsibility for a gap (or 2 in a 2 gap scheme) and they must maintain that gap integrity during the play. for instance, if a DT has the strong side B gap and the run is to the A gap next to him, then he has to "squeeze down" that gap to make the A gap smaller, or wait unti the RB has committed to the A gap before he "rips crossface" to the A gap. He has to maintain his B gap first and let the ILB responsible for the A gap make the play.

The notion of "setting a guy up' for a big play or big move is something that might come in pass rush, where a OLB that has ususally been running the outside arc, sets up an inside counter. But that runs the risk of losing gap integrity to the outside and allowing an outside run.

Playing D line is about Alignment, Assignment and then intensity of using the power, quickness and hand placement to defeat the guy across from you, while maintaining your gap integrity. It takes a lot of energy and strength endurance. This is why those that believe that you just put your best 2 or 3 D lineman in for the entire series and never rotate them out, have likely never put their hand in the dirt as a D lineman during a 7-10 play drive.

Having a solid group of 4-6 D linemen that you can rotate in to keep the maximum level of intense effort in your D line play is very important. As the game wears on, I bet that around the 5th or 6th snap, a D lineman can use a quick breather.

I said the OL has 'give aways' in their blocking technique. NOT TAKING PLAYS OFF! AND not the DL. In a 3-4 the DL is not just gap assignment. Good grief man I thought you knew this stuff.

pczach
10-07-2018, 06:16 PM
I said the OL has 'give aways' in their blocking technique. NOT TAKING PLAYS OFF! AND not the DL. In a 3-4 the DL is not just gap assignment. Good grief man I thought you knew this stuff.



Semantics cause so many disagreements here.

I understood what you meant. It's just so difficult to write a 10-paragraph explanation for everything that you hope people understand.

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-08-2018, 01:50 AM
I said the OL has 'give aways' in their blocking technique. NOT TAKING PLAYS OFF! AND not the DL. In a 3-4 the DL is not just gap assignment. Good grief man I thought you knew this stuff.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

Do you really think the O line has "give aways"? If a O lineman gives away 1 play a game and it results in a holding play or sack, then that is 16 sacks a year, or 16 holding calls a year. If an O lineman commits 10 penalties a season or 10 sacks, he is deemed terrible. There is not a "give away " play in playing O line.

As for the 3-4 not being gap control, that is wrong. Conventional 3-4 under LeBeau was a 2 gap assignment, read and react d line play. Under Butler its a 1 gap assignment and maintaining gap integrity is a fundamental of every D lineman play, whether its 4-3 or 3-4. I know this stuff....I have played it and I coach it.

pczach
10-08-2018, 06:30 AM
Ok, thanks for the clarification.

Do you really think the O line has "give aways"? If a O lineman gives away 1 play a game and it results in a holding play or sack, then that is 16 sacks a year, or 16 holding calls a year. If an O lineman commits 10 penalties a season or 10 sacks, he is deemed terrible. There is not a "give away " play in playing O line.

As for the 3-4 not being gap control, that is wrong. Conventional 3-4 under LeBeau was a 2 gap assignment, read and react d line play. Under Butler its a 1 gap assignment and maintaining gap integrity is a fundamental of every D lineman play, whether its 4-3 or 3-4. I know this stuff....I have played it and I coach it.



Gonzo, I didn't read it the way you did. He said that "In a 3-4 the DL is not just gap assignment."

He didn't say that there isn't any gap assignment in a 3-4. He said "not just" which means he knows there is gap assignment and he's implying and talking about other things that happen after the snap IMO.

Like I said above....semantics and just reading a few words someone posts sometimes makes it very difficult to completely understand what someone is trying to say without them posting something that rivals War and Peace in length in every post when it comes to the technical stuff. :chuckle:

Born2Steel
10-08-2018, 07:18 AM
Gonzo, I didn't read it the way you did. He said that "In a 3-4 the DL is not just gap assignment."

He didn't say that there isn't any gap assignment in a 3-4. He said "not just" which means he knows there is gap assignment and he's implying and talking about other things that happen after the snap IMO.

Like I said above....semantics and just reading a few words someone posts sometimes makes it very difficult to completely understand what someone is trying to say without them posting something that rivals War and Peace in length in every post when it comes to the technical stuff. :chuckle:

THIS pretty much sums up half the debates I have on here with El-Gonzo. AND the 'GIVE AWAY' he still doesn't understand what that means either. READ THE ENTIRE POST!

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-08-2018, 12:06 PM
Gonzo, I didn't read it the way you did. He said that "In a 3-4 the DL is not just gap assignment."

He didn't say that there isn't any gap assignment in a 3-4. He said "not just" which means he knows there is gap assignment and he's implying and talking about other things that happen after the snap IMO.

Like I said above....semantics and just reading a few words someone posts sometimes makes it very difficult to completely understand what someone is trying to say without them posting something that rivals War and Peace in length in every post when it comes to the technical stuff. :chuckle:

Thanks for clarification, but the discussion about gap assignment is secondary in the discussion from my point of view. The notion that there are "give away" plays in line play, similar to poker hands are my primary point of disagreeing with post #29. D linemen aren't having give away plays to somehow learn the tell of O linemen and similarly O linemen aren't giving away plays to setup a D lineman down the road for a big play. There are no throw away hands in football, looking for Teddy KGB's tell of eating the Oreo cookie.

Rotating in fresh Defensive linemen for guys that have just expended short bursts of intense effort over a period of 6 or 7 plays is a smart thing to do...and its commonly done by lots of teams.

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THIS pretty much sums up half the debates I have on here with El-Gonzo. AND the 'GIVE AWAY' he still doesn't understand what that means either. READ THE ENTIRE POST!

OK, apologies if I am not understanding the "give away". I think you are implying that NFL (and other college or even highschool) linemen give away some plays like poker players play throw away hands, in order to setup the larger big play or pot win in poker. If I am misunderstanding that analogy, please clarify as that is where I see zero validity or relevant comparison to offensive or defensive line play..

Born2Steel
10-08-2018, 12:14 PM
Thanks for clarification, but the discussion about gap assignment is secondary in the discussion from my point of view. The notion that there are "give away" plays in line play, similar to poker hands are my primary point of disagreeing with post #29. D linemen aren't having give away plays to somehow learn the tell of O linemen and similarly O linemen aren't giving away plays to setup a D lineman down the road for a big play. There are no throw away hands in football, looking for Teddy KGB's tell of eating the Oreo cookie.

Rotating in fresh Defensive linemen for guys that have just expended short bursts of intense effort over a period of 6 or 7 plays is a smart thing to do...and its commonly done by lots of teams.

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OK, apologies if I am not understanding the "give away". I think you are implying that NFL (and other college or even highschool) linemen give away some plays like poker players play throw away hands, in order to setup the larger big play or pot win in poker. If I am misunderstanding that analogy, please clarify as that is where I see zero validity or relevant comparison to offensive or defensive line play..

OK. So stay with the poker analogy. Instead of the OL have 'give aways', use 'tells'. The DL learn 'tells' that let them know how the OL is trying to block them. Maybe the left foot is in a different spot when they want to pass block. 'TELLS'. Point was that the DL learn these 'tells' through reps. If coming out of the game every 5-6 snaps for a breather it's difficult to find that rhythm and learn your opponents 'tells'.

I did watch Tuitt and Heyward this week instead of my usual watching the LBs. The only DL I saw coming in and out was Hargrave. I think when Heyward went out for those few injury snaps it was McCullers that replaced him. But then Cam was back in for the rest of the game.

Appreciate the translation help there, pczach.

Mojouw
10-08-2018, 12:30 PM
Tuitt and Heyward both took about 20 snaps off last game according to the charting data at Steelers Depot.

"Defensive linemen – Backup Tyson Alualu played 29 of a possible 72 total defensive snaps against the Falcons. Daniel McCullers dressed again and played just 12 defensive snaps against the Falcons while starter Javon Hargrave logged 17 total snaps Sunday afternoon Starters Cameron Heyward and Stephon Tuitt played 51 and 52 defensive snaps, respectively."

https://steelersdepot.com/2018/10/steelers-vs-falcons-player-snap-counts-and-analysis-week-5/

pczach
10-08-2018, 01:08 PM
Thanks for clarification, but the discussion about gap assignment is secondary in the discussion from my point of view. The notion that there are "give away" plays in line play, similar to poker hands are my primary point of disagreeing with post #29. D linemen aren't having give away plays to somehow learn the tell of O linemen and similarly O linemen aren't giving away plays to setup a D lineman down the road for a big play. There are no throw away hands in football, looking for Teddy KGB's tell of eating the Oreo cookie.

Rotating in fresh Defensive linemen for guys that have just expended short bursts of intense effort over a period of 6 or 7 plays is a smart thing to do...and its commonly done by lots of teams.





By the way, I have zero problem with giving DL a break and rotating in backup players to give them some rest to keep them fresh. My one point was how silly it is when guys are sprinting on or off the field for one play, and they are trying to beat getting a 12 men on the field penalty or sprinting back onto the field against a hurry up offense and are never completely set with the defensive call and are winded from sprinting 30-40 yards before the snap. It defeats the purpose of resting them.

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-08-2018, 02:56 PM
OK. So stay with the poker analogy. Instead of the OL have 'give aways', use 'tells'. The DL learn 'tells' that let them know how the OL is trying to block them. Maybe the left foot is in a different spot when they want to pass block. 'TELLS'. Point was that the DL learn these 'tells' through reps. If coming out of the game every 5-6 snaps for a breather it's difficult to find that rhythm and learn your opponents 'tells'.

.

Ok, thanks for the "tell" analogy. I wonder if the picture you are painting regarding "the DL learns tells that let them know how the OL is trying to block them." is formed from experience or an opinion or theory?

I have coached O line at a highschool and youth level, I have been to coaching clinics where college coaches have presented skills, drills and concepts. I have several books on the topic and used to get the AFCA newsletters with drills and concepts that were published from College and Pro coaches. But I have never read, or heard another coach instruct a D lineman to try and accumulate knowledge of an opposing lineman's "tells". The only thing is in Highschool or College that you can read a O linemen splits if they want to narrow down in a pass play, or see if he has weight on his front hand for a run block, vs less weight on it for a retreat block in pass protection.

I have seen coaches lecture/present on concepts of maintaining their gap, by reacting to if the OL is drive blocking them (if being blocked out, then you lock out against the OL) vs reach blocking them to hook outside for a run(DL is instructed to rip and reach across the face of the pulling blocker to maintain their gap).

I am curious to know where you developed or heard of the theory of needing to find a rythmn to learn your O linemans tells?... as I just have never heard it, read it, or seen a coach lecture or present it.

pczach
10-08-2018, 03:01 PM
Ok, thanks for the "tell" analogy. I wonder if the picture you are painting regarding "the DL learns tells that let them know how the OL is trying to block them." is formed from experience or an opinion or theory?

I have coached O line at a highschool and youth level, I have been to coaching clinics where college coaches have presented skills, drills and concepts. I have several books on the topic and used to get the AFCA newsletters with drills and concepts that were published from College and Pro coaches. But I have never read, or heard another coach instruct a D lineman to try and accumulate knowledge of an opposing lineman's "tells". The only thing is in Highschool or College that you can read a O linemen splits if they want to narrow down in a pass play, or see if he has weight on his front hand for a run block, vs less weight on it for a retreat block in pass protection.

I have seen coaches lecture/present on concepts of maintaining their gap, by reacting to if the OL is drive blocking them (if being blocked out, then you lock out against the OL) vs reach blocking them to hook outside for a run(DL is instructed to rip and reach across the face of the pulling blocker to maintain their gap).

I am curious to know where you developed or heard of the theory of needing to find a rythmn to learn your O linemans tells?... as I just have never heard it, read it, or seen a coach lecture or present it.



Maybe he watched Rudy! :chuckle:

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-08-2018, 04:34 PM
Maybe he watched Rudy! :chuckle:

That or Invincible with Mark Walberg?? :thumbsup:

"What color are my knuckles?"

pczach
10-08-2018, 04:36 PM
That or Invincible with Mark Walberg?? :thumbsup:

"What color are my knuckles?"


Exactly! :chuckle:

Born2Steel
10-08-2018, 05:21 PM
Ok, thanks for the "tell" analogy. I wonder if the picture you are painting regarding "the DL learns tells that let them know how the OL is trying to block them." is formed from experience or an opinion or theory?

I have coached O line at a highschool and youth level, I have been to coaching clinics where college coaches have presented skills, drills and concepts. I have several books on the topic and used to get the AFCA newsletters with drills and concepts that were published from College and Pro coaches. But I have never read, or heard another coach instruct a D lineman to try and accumulate knowledge of an opposing lineman's "tells". The only thing is in Highschool or College that you can read a O linemen splits if they want to narrow down in a pass play, or see if he has weight on his front hand for a run block, vs less weight on it for a retreat block in pass protection.

I have seen coaches lecture/present on concepts of maintaining their gap, by reacting to if the OL is drive blocking them (if being blocked out, then you lock out against the OL) vs reach blocking them to hook outside for a run(DL is instructed to rip and reach across the face of the pulling blocker to maintain their gap).

I am curious to know where you developed or heard of the theory of needing to find a rythmn to learn your O linemans tells?... as I just have never heard it, read it, or seen a coach lecture or present it.

The short answer is simply that I too have coached OL and DL in youth football. My son played LT and DT from 6years old until his sophomore year in HS. When I took him out of the sport. At practices and in off season clinics we taught/he was taught to either not show 'tells' as a LT, or to watch the OL's feet and stance for 'tells' as a DT. Mark Schlereth(sp) and Jeff Saturday both talked at length about the subjuect as guest speakers at clinics.

Not sure why this takes so much conversation. Only discussing the pros and cons of running DL off and on the field during a defensive series. I think the DL should play the series. Or what? It may last 8-10 plays and that's just too long for a pro athlete? I really don't understand the friction on this.

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Maybe he watched Rudy! :chuckle:

I liked that movie.

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That or Invincible with Mark Walberg?? :thumbsup:

"What color are my knuckles?"

I liked that movie too.

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-08-2018, 06:05 PM
The short answer is simply that I too have coached OL and DL in youth football. My son played LT and DT from 6years old until his sophomore year in HS. When I took him out of the sport. At practices and in off season clinics we taught/he was taught to either not show 'tells' as a LT, or to watch the OL's feet and stance for 'tells' as a DT. Mark Schlereth(sp) and Jeff Saturday both talked at length about the subjuect as guest speakers at clinics.

Not sure why this takes so much conversation. Only discussing the pros and cons of running DL off and on the field during a defensive series. I think the DL should play the series. Or what? It may last 8-10 plays and that's just too long for a pro athlete? I really don't understand the friction on this.

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.

I agree, you teach O linemen to setup consistently each time to not give away much pre snap. In my experience, it doesn't take a series of snaps for a D lineman to read what an O lineman is doing pre-snap or post-snap during the play. The D lineman reads the O lineman pre snap and then when the ball is snapped, he focuses on landmarks on the O lineman for hand placement and reads and reacts according to his responsibility.

I disagree that D linemen need to play an entire series to get in the flow of "reading tells" of O linemen. I think we have all seen football games where the D linemen are getting tired by being on the field for a long drive. I believe that is one advantage of running no huddle offense, is to keep defenses from putting fresh players on the field. Maybe you have coached in some of those types of games.

Born2Steel
10-08-2018, 08:05 PM
I agree, you teach O linemen to setup consistently each time to not give away much pre snap. In my experience, it doesn't take a series of snaps for a D lineman to read what an O lineman is doing pre-snap or post-snap during the play. The D lineman reads the O lineman pre snap and then when the ball is snapped, he focuses on landmarks on the O lineman for hand placement and reads and reacts according to his responsibility.

I disagree that D linemen need to play an entire series to get in the flow of "reading tells" of O linemen. I think we have all seen football games where the D linemen are getting tired by being on the field for a long drive. I believe that is one advantage of running no huddle offense, is to keep defenses from putting fresh players on the field. Maybe you have coached in some of those types of games.

OK???