Random Stuff I Think I Think...

[Mojouw]

Much of this is scattered over other threads here, but I thought it might be useful to condense it all here.

For me, there are two games to truly get a read on the defense, the Bucaneers game and the Ravens game. Cleveland is kinda "meh" because of the conditions and Tyrod Taylor not being good enough to make the defense pay (and yes, I know who didn't win the game). KC game is written off as getting buzzsawed by a team that is whupping everyone because there is not enough tape on their offense to even begin to figure it out. My feelings on that game may change if and when anyone slows or stops KC with a plan beyond "hope".

In the Bucaneers game the Steelers clearly felt that getting pressure on Fitzpatrick and moving him off his spot or rushing his processing of his reads would lead to mistakes. They were proven to be correct and caused just enough turnovers and misfires to outlast the Bucaneers. Many of the coverage breakdowns in that game were because they planned on having inferior DBs on superior pass-catchers in a calculated gamble that the pass rush could get there before too much disaster happened. Since it was a win, we can kinda sorta maybe say they were right.

Now last night, the Steelers felt that rushing 4, 5, or 6 guys was a recipe for giving up big plays to the Ravens. Early portions of the game would seem to prove that out. They adjusted and sat back in a zone behind their base look and attempted to make the Ravens take short to medium stuff and march down the field. The Ravens struggles in the red zone demonstrate that the approach was not entirely without logic and reason.

Where does that leave us? It leaves us that the Steelers secondary can not be left in single coverage with guys of Mike Evans and Desean Jackson's caliber. Okay. Make a mental list of CBs in the league who can be left on those guys for 3-6 seconds of coverage. Got it? How many names were on it? 3? 5? Less? It certainly shouldn't be more than a half dozen guys. We also know that Sensabaugh can not be allowed to be isolated by the offense and picked on so until Burns plays better that means a safety is ALWAYS on that side of the field. That leaves either Haden, the slot CB, or a LB with precious little help in coverage. Last night, Haden proved that as long as he can match the guy's speed - he can do enough to make the concept feasible. Not ideal, but feasible. No other DB on the entire roster can say that. To me, that means the Steelers have to provide "help" defenders all over the field out of any formation. That is a very tall order.

Through the vague haze of memory, I seem to remember the Ravens offense being a tale of two halves. In the first half, they wanted to take their shots and beat the Steelers by grabbing chunks of yardage. Pittsburgh seemed to get their crap together and kinda blunted that. So in the second half, the Ravens realized the game was close and the run was still a realistic threat. So they lined up in RB and TE heavy formations. This kept the Steelers in their base packages. In base, they have to protect Sensabaugh/Burns, Edmunds, Bostic, and the LBs in coverages. That means a 3 man rush most times MAYBE a 4 man rush. Almost all of the 4+ guy rushes in the Bucs game were out of sub-packages. The exact packages that they could not get on the field last night. Steelers defense is left covering TEs and RBs with over-matched guys and an anemic rush. Shockingly the Ravens picked that apart - except when the field shrank in the red zone. Then the secondary and LBers were able to compress the field and shrink the zones not giving up big windows for Flacco to throw into. The exact design of that "bend but don't break" 3-4 Cover 2 or 3 zone stuff we have seen a ton of last few seasons.

If the offense runs more than NINETEEN plays the entire second half, what conversation are we having? Likely how they Steelers narrowly escaped with a 27-24 victory and the defense did "just enough by a whisker" to get by. We then talk about how maybe it gets better when Burnett gets back (taking Nate "Automatic Completion" Berhe off the field). Maybe Burns is slowly worked back in and maybe Sensabaugh goes back to the bench. Hilton provides an upgrade over Sutton...and on and on.

TL;DR -- Steelers defense can do enough to win games when the pass rush can take it to an inferior offensive line (Cleveland and Tampa Bay). When a decent to pretty good offensive line can stymie the pass rush (KC and Ravens) the offense can identify and exploit a variety of mismatches that force the Steelers defense into (for them) no win situations. For me, there are two solutions. One is to hold the line until health gets some guys on the field (Burnett, Hilton, maybe IR Adyi) and the learning curve flattens out for others (Edmunds, Thomas, Sutton) but until then you take it in the teeth. The other is to begin to innovate and add wrinkles to the schemes and coverages to obscure what you are doing.

There are significant drawbacks to both. But I don't see it getting much better until after the bye, if at all. The best hope for the defense is that the offense can get out to faster starts, beat teams up and down the field and then they are just the Manning era Colts on defense.

[Mojouw]

Ok. So now the REALLY unpopular and not entirely well thought out bit. And that's saying something since the above was a wordy and barely coherent rambling of a tired mind!

The offense misses Bell. The end. But the yards from scrimmage and the rushing results are similar and have you seen Conner's YPC? I got it. I do. But hear me out...

Remember when Heath retired and Ben just look a bit lost for awhile? Bell not being on the field is the same kinda thing. In his first few seasons, Bell got a lot of passes by design and all those "WR style routes" that have been talked about endlessly. And then, as several folks have astutely pointed out, those routes shrank and Bell just kinda became a safety valve -- just like Heath used to be. Bell an Ben had that same kinda mind-meld thing where they both saw similar holes in the short area coverages and Ben knew he could take an extra long look AB or Bryant's way and then come back to have Bell exactly where he expected him to be. He simply doesn't have that now.

The Steelers don't have a go-to short area receiver. They are trying to make one on the fly with Switzer, but it looks and feels forced. Many times in the second half against the Ravens, Ben loaded up and looked medium to deep and didn't like what he saw. On the TV view, Conner looked like he had leaked out from protection and was an option (admittedly coverages were not clear) but Ben didn't like something about it and looked back at AB or Juju and forced one (or in the case last night about 3 dozen or so!).

Ben looks really sharp and comfortable as long as his first two reads work. That appears to usually be some combination of AB, Juju, McDonald/James, or Washington about 5-15 yards down the field. He looks totally uncomfortable when he has to come off of those and find something 1-5 yards to one of the "secondary" options. Why is that? I do not know. My theory is that Bell provides two things the offense doesn't have now. The first is a high "comfort factor" for Ben. He knows and trusts Leveon Bell the football player (I swear do not make this about Leveon Bell the contract situation moron) far more than Conner, Switzer, etc. The second is that even though those slant routes and deeper routes that Bell established his reputation on (Again, please do not make this about how much you buy or don't buy the reputation) had begun to fade out, defenses still lined up and set their defense as if they did. It made EVERYONE's job just a bit easier. Now it is just a bit or, as I believe, significantly harder and the offense misfires.

TL:DR -- Here is a bad analogy. I have to commute ten miles from my house to my job. I can do that on a bike. It is totally possible and at the end of the day I would have similar production as if I commuted another way. But driving a car from my driveway to the front door of my job site is simply easier. I still go in and do the same job, it just makes things easier. Bell is the car here if you didn't get it...

[Fire Goodell]

Good writeup. All in all right now we honestly don't have a good team as is. Watching the Rams and Kansas City play, I just have to say the top teams right now are head and shoulders above us. We're beyond a few coaching changes to be able to hang with either of those guys.

[Fire Goodell]

My thoughts after a few beers:

What if this is the beginning of a huge drama story called The Mad Scientist QB. In the year 2018, the Steelers are in a terrible decline, and after 2 years of pain and suffering, Ben Roethlisberger decides he's finished with football and retires. It's a sad day when he retires, because you never want to see a legend go out on 2 straight losing seasons. The young quarterbacks Josh Dobbs and Mason Rudolph finally get their chance. Everyone assumes it's going to be Mason Rudolph, some believe it's going to be Dobbs, and almost nobody thinks it's going to be 7th round compensatory selection Ballsack Flanigan from the Southwestern Pirates. Preseason, both quarterbacks looked equally good, with each having their advantages and disadvantages. Then in game 4, Josh Dobbs throws 8 TD's and 0 INT's in the first half before finally handing the quarterbacking duties to Rudolph. Rudolph also throws for 8 TD's, but also threw an INT. Therefore, Dobbs wins the job as the starter.

Meanwhile, Ryan Shazier is finally back in preseason action after a few hard years of rehabilitation and never losing hope. He looks ready to play, and although not as fast as he used to be, has a great showing in the preseason and is named as the starting inside linebacker. After the end of the preseason, they trade Mason Rudolph to the 6-time world champion New England Patriots******, after being offered 2 first round draft picks. The Patriots****** were looking for an heir to Tom Brady, who retired after his last super bowl win. Dobbs proves the preseason performance was not a fluke, and leads the Steelers to a 13-3 record and a AFC Championship game showdown with the Patriots******, led by Mason Rudolph. This became one of the most memorable games in NFL history, with the game coming down to the wire, with the Steelers winning 66-59. Dobbs and Rudolph lit up the scoreboard so much it was like the 4th of July in January or some shit. With the game tied at 1:30 in the 4th quarter, the Patriots****** have the ball and are driving within field goal range. At 2nd and 10 on the Pittsburgh 42, Rudolph's pass is picked off by Ryan Shazier and returned for the game's final TD. Co-MVP's were Josh Dobbs and Ryan Shazier, alopecia brothers in arms.

We crush whoever the NFC team is in the super bowl pretty badly. That's the story of how the Steelers were the first team to 7 Super Bowls.

[Mojouw]

My thoughts after a few beers:

What if this is the beginning of a huge drama story called The Mad Scientist QB. In the year 2018, the Steelers are in a terrible decline, and after 2 years of pain and suffering, Ben Roethlisberger decides he's finished with football and retires. It's a sad day when he retires, because you never want to see a legend go out on 2 straight losing seasons. The young quarterbacks Josh Dobbs and Mason Rudolph finally get their chance. Everyone assumes it's going to be Mason Rudolph, some believe it's going to be Dobbs, and almost nobody thinks it's going to be 7th round compensatory selection Ballsack Flanigan from the Southwestern Pirates. Preseason, both quarterbacks looked equally good, with each having their advantages and disadvantages. Then in game 4, Josh Dobbs throws 8 TD's and 0 INT's in the first half before finally handing the quarterbacking duties to Rudolph. Rudolph also throws for 8 TD's, but also threw an INT. Therefore, Dobbs wins the job as the starter.

Meanwhile, Ryan Shazier is finally back in preseason action after a few hard years of rehabilitation and never losing hope. He looks ready to play, and although not as fast as he used to be, has a great showing in the preseason and is named as the starting inside linebacker. After the end of the preseason, they trade Mason Rudolph to the 6-time world champion New England Patriots******, after being offered 2 first round draft picks. The Patriots****** were looking for an heir to Tom Brady, who retired after his last super bowl win. Dobbs proves the preseason performance was not a fluke, and leads the Steelers to a 13-3 record and a AFC Championship game showdown with the Patriots******, led by Mason Rudolph. This became one of the most memorable games in NFL history, with the game coming down to the wire, with the Steelers winning 66-59. Dobbs and Rudolph lit up the scoreboard so much it was like the 4th of July in January or some shit. With the game tied at 1:30 in the 4th quarter, the Patriots****** have the ball and are driving within field goal range. At 2nd and 10 on the Pittsburgh 42, Rudolph's pass is picked off by Ryan Shazier and returned for the game's final TD. Co-MVP's were Josh Dobbs and Ryan Shazier, alopecia brothers in arms.

We crush whoever the NFC team is in the super bowl pretty badly. That's the story of how the Steelers were the first team to 7 Super Bowls.

That is the greatest story of all time! I love it!

[Neversatisfied]

The Steelers miss Bell, yes absolutely. The Steelers miss an intelligent Head Coach even more. The Steelers have eroded, this defense has been 100% rebuilt with several top draft picks and it excels at nothing, it isn't even adequate at anything even with its defensive minded head Coach. The Steelers are a complete mess and it starts at Mike Tomlin. The Steelers need guidance, real guidance not just slick talk and slick talk is Mike Tomlins forte.

[Mojouw]

The Steelers miss Bell, yes absolutely. The Steelers miss an intelligent Head Coach even more. The Steelers have eroded, this defense has been 100% rebuilt with several top draft picks and it excels at nothing, it isn't even adequate at anything even with its defensive minded head Coach. The Steelers are a complete mess and it starts at Mike Tomlin. The Steelers need guidance, real guidance not just slick talk and slick talk is Mike Tomlins forte.

Ok. So what is that guidance? How would you play against 3 TE sets? How to prepare for that play where Maxx Williams was lined up at center but was also an eligible receiver? What coverage do you run that allows you to roll a safety to both one of the CBs side and protect the LB running with the TE down the seam with safety help?

How would you prepare your offense to run more than 19 plays in 30 minutes of football?

[FrancoLambert]

My thoughts after a few beers:

What if this is the beginning of a huge drama story called The Mad Scientist QB. In the year 2018, the Steelers are in a terrible decline, and after 2 years of pain and suffering, Ben Roethlisberger decides he's finished with football and retires. It's a sad day when he retires, because you never want to see a legend go out on 2 straight losing seasons. The young quarterbacks Josh Dobbs and Mason Rudolph finally get their chance. Everyone assumes it's going to be Mason Rudolph, some believe it's going to be Dobbs, and almost nobody thinks it's going to be 7th round compensatory selection Ballsack Flanigan from the Southwestern Pirates. Preseason, both quarterbacks looked equally good, with each having their advantages and disadvantages. Then in game 4, Josh Dobbs throws 8 TD's and 0 INT's in the first half before finally handing the quarterbacking duties to Rudolph. Rudolph also throws for 8 TD's, but also threw an INT. Therefore, Dobbs wins the job as the starter.

Meanwhile, Ryan Shazier is finally back in preseason action after a few hard years of rehabilitation and never losing hope. He looks ready to play, and although not as fast as he used to be, has a great showing in the preseason and is named as the starting inside linebacker. After the end of the preseason, they trade Mason Rudolph to the 6-time world champion New England Patriots******, after being offered 2 first round draft picks. The Patriots****** were looking for an heir to Tom Brady, who retired after his last super bowl win. Dobbs proves the preseason performance was not a fluke, and leads the Steelers to a 13-3 record and a AFC Championship game showdown with the Patriots******, led by Mason Rudolph. This became one of the most memorable games in NFL history, with the game coming down to the wire, with the Steelers winning 66-59. Dobbs and Rudolph lit up the scoreboard so much it was like the 4th of July in January or some shit. With the game tied at 1:30 in the 4th quarter, the Patriots****** have the ball and are driving within field goal range. At 2nd and 10 on the Pittsburgh 42, Rudolph's pass is picked off by Ryan Shazier and returned for the game's final TD. Co-MVP's were Josh Dobbs and Ryan Shazier, alopecia brothers in arms.

We crush whoever the NFC team is in the super bowl pretty badly. That's the story of how the Steelers were the first team to 7 Super Bowls.

One question....what brand of beer do you drink?
I need a case of it. :alcohol::alcohol::alcohol::alcohol::alcohol:

[86WARD]

Ok. So what is that guidance? How would you play against 3 TE sets? How to prepare for that play where Maxx Williams was lined up at center but was also an eligible receiver? What coverage do you run that allows you to roll a safety to both one of the CBs side and protect the LB running with the TE down the seam with safety help?

How would you prepare your offense to run more than 19 plays in 30 minutes of football?

All great questions and questions it appears that the team itself cannot answer...

[Dwinsgames]

the title made me chuckle a bit ... a buddy of mine Mark " sammich" Mangino ( former K-State coach ) uses it as his twitter bio quote " things I think I think"

[Fire Goodell]

One question....what brand of beer do you drink?
I need a case of it. :alcohol::alcohol::alcohol::alcohol::alcohol:

It's a homebrew, around a 7% strength IPA so I'm feeling pretty nice after a few :chuckle: Hardly drink commercial beers since I've got into the hobby :chuckle:

[tube517]

Berhe is on IR
Brian Allen is promoted to active roster.
Matthew Thomas may get some snaps if Bince W can't play (per Tomlin's presser)
Hopefully, we get Hilton and Burnett back.


Fire Goodell, send some beer down here in Tomlin Country! :tt03::drink::couch2:

[NCSteeler]

Ok. So what is that guidance? How would you play against 3 TE sets? How to prepare for that play where Maxx Williams was lined up at center but was also an eligible receiver? What coverage do you run that allows you to roll a safety to both one of the CBs side and protect the LB running with the TE down the seam with safety help?

How would you prepare your offense to run more than 19 plays in 30 minutes of football?Maybe you just start by not having defensive players running into each other covering the same zones or flapping around like they have no idea what the play call is. That would be a good srart

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

[steelreserve]

TL;DR -- Steelers defense can do enough to win games when the pass rush can take it to an inferior offensive line (Cleveland and Tampa Bay). When a decent to pretty good offensive line can stymie the pass rush (KC and Ravens) the offense can identify and exploit a variety of mismatches that force the Steelers defense into (for them) no win situations. For me, there are two solutions. One is to hold the line until health gets some guys on the field (Burnett, Hilton, maybe IR Adyi) and the learning curve flattens out for others (Edmunds, Thomas, Sutton) but until then you take it in the teeth. The other is to begin to innovate and add wrinkles to the schemes and coverages to obscure what you are doing.

There are significant drawbacks to both. But I don't see it getting much better until after the bye, if at all. The best hope for the defense is that the offense can get out to faster starts, beat teams up and down the field and then they are just the Manning era Colts on defense.


Basically what I got out of the opening post was that there are some opposing offenses that will be able to have their way with us and we can't do shit about us, and that there are a lot of them. Basically anyone with a quarterback who is not backup/journeyman level inconsistent, OR anyone with a legitimate #1 receiver, and god help us if they have both (or a legitimate #1 and #2 WR). Not a really high bar to clear. The sad part is that your assessment may be correct.

One thing for certain is that Haden is the only one who can be trusted one-on-one at this point, and it's a major handicap. We are going to continue to take it right up the dirt chute as long as the defense can be exploited like that.

But I don't think talent is the problem -- we "should" have the personnel we need, even with our current guys. A lineup of Haden-Burns-Sutton-Edmunds-Davis actually SHOULD be capable of staying with receivers and forming a decent secondary. Out of that group, Davis is the only one who I think might just lack the ability to "get it," and I'm not 100% on that, and we have other guys who can play the position in any case.

The problem is not that the players in our secondary are outmatched, it's that the unit is completely disjointed. The linebacking corps could probably use more/better players, but as for the DBs the issue mostly appears to be that we have five individual players that are not working coherently with each other or with the other units on the defense. That's been going on for years, and we've gradually added more talented players to the mix, but the problem has stayed exactly the same. So it seems to me like nobody is teaching these guys how to be more than individual players, which is a coaching/mentality thing.

Sadly, that most likely means that things are not going to improve when some player or other is healthy, or if Sensabaugh or Berhe goes to the bench. It will just be the same systemic issue with slightly fewer bad individual screw-ups on top of that issue. We have the talent; it is something that we should've fixed in the preseason, but we didn't (again). May end up just riding out another shitty year on defense, with a ceiling of barely making the playoffs, if that.

[Born2Steel]

I think the confusion on defense is mostly with the secondary. That is one issue by itself.

I think the LB talent on this defense is below the standard of an NFL LB corps. This is another stand alone issue.

I think the DL has the right talent and man power to do their jobs efficiently and effectively.

I think the 2 issues mentioned above involving the DBs and the LBs prevent the DL from ONLY doing what they should be doing. This becomes a 3rd issue for this defense.

Lastly I think we have decent personnel in the secondary at half of the positions on the roster. Injuries are a separate issue. Personnel upgrades needed at FS, and CB, IMO.

[Dwinsgames]

Lebeau used to Isolate Ike ( in his prime ) in man coverage and run zone around him ...

it worked pretty well as long as Ike was a true cover corner and it only started to falter when Ike got some age on him....

Haden isnt as good now as Ike was then ( speed isnt as good ) but he is leaps and bounds better than anyone else we have on the roster ... so maybe it could work again ?


as a side note .....

Burns has the speed and he can cover .... his issue seems to be more related to responsibilities in zone ..

If it where my call I think I would take a sharpie and write the #2 WRs number on his hand and tell him this is your guy do not concern yourself with anything other than making sure he doesnt catch the football and see how that works out .

[Born2Steel]

LOL. A Sharpie. That's good. :lol:

[Mojouw]

Lebeau used to Isolate Ike ( in his prime ) in man coverage and run zone around him ...

it worked pretty well as long as Ike was a true cover corner and it only started to falter when Ike got some age on him....

Haden isnt as good now as Ike was then ( speed isnt as good ) but he is leaps and bounds better than anyone else we have on the roster ... so maybe it could work again ?


as a side note .....

Burns has the speed and he can cover .... his issue seems to be more related to responsibilities in zone ..

If it where my call I think I would take a sharpie and write the #2 WRs number on his hand and tell him this is your guy do not concern yourself with anything other than making sure he doesnt catch the football and see how that works out .

Yeah. I couldn't agree more with all of this. Just have those two follow guys and figure the rest out separately.

At least for Burns, I would tell him he has no safety help and he just needs to not get beat by the sharpie dude.

[tube517]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3tssXf2RrQ