what would you do if Steelers lose tonight

[Dwinsgames]

1) Fire Tomlin

2) Fire Butler

3) fire Danny Smith

4) both 1 and 2

5) nobody gets fired

[Born2Steel]

5

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

5. Its week 3 of the season.

Without Bell, DeCastro, Gilbert, Morgan Burnett the talent isn't there right now and the ILB's are average to mediocre. Could be an ugly game against the Bucs D line. Firing somebody isn't going to make DeCastro and Gilbert heal up faster, nor make Bostic and Williams into great ILB's. If the Steelers win, it will be a good coaching job to get a bunch of rookies and backups to stop the likes of Gerald McCoy, Desean Jackson and Mike Evans.

[Dwinsgames]

5

I can respect that , but I went with 2 ... I just do not see what waiting does in this case Butler is not going to improve in expediting the play calling , he has slow diction its been that way all his life ...

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

If the Defense gives up 40, then this takes the Buttler Meter to Jeeves level 9 for sure. :willy:

[Iron Steeler]

Fire Butler... hire a aggressive minded Def Coach.

This "Our defensive scheme is so complex" is the worst excuse I ever heard. The defense should be out there flying at full speed. Right now everyone looks like they are "counting steps" and "trying to remember these complex assignments."

If it is true that the call is not getting out quick enough from sideline, Butler has to go.

He is a disciple of Lebaeu's def. Which dominated up into the early 2000s. But since circa 2008 has been the easiest defense to pick appart for any sub-par QB.

[Mojouw]

If you fire Butler, your options at DC are basically Porter, Bradley, and Frazier. So none of those are going to happen and you won't be able to find a quality candidate outside the organization in the middle of the season. Firing Butler = Tomlin being the DC.

Firing Tomlin, again, means you will have to replace on an interim basis from inside the organization. That means Munchak. I think he is a great o-line coach who (by his own admission) is/was not a very good head coach.

For the next 3 months or so, Firing the current coaches gains you very little. It is a severe risk, but rolling the dice that these guys can turn it around potentially reaps greater rewards.

Now the off-season is another story. Also, if Butler is just slow to communicate but a good defensive mind, what about just stripping him of game-day play calling? Maybe put that on Bradley?

[Dwinsgames]

If you fire Butler, your options at DC are basically Porter, Bradley, and Frazier. So none of those are going to happen and you won't be able to find a quality candidate outside the organization in the middle of the season. Firing Butler = Tomlin being the DC.

Firing Tomlin, again, means you will have to replace on an interim basis from inside the organization. That means Munchak. I think he is a great o-line coach who (by his own admission) is/was not a very good head coach.

For the next 3 months or so, Firing the current coaches gains you very little. It is a severe risk, but rolling the dice that these guys can turn it around potentially reaps greater rewards.

Now the off-season is another story. Also, if Butler is just slow to communicate but a good defensive mind, what about just stripping him of game-day play calling? Maybe put that on Bradley?

half of being a good DC is making in the moment decisions ...

if your DC is slow to communicate those " in the moment decisions " giving someone else the job or relaying that info will not expedite the call any IMO and very little at best with the risk of it taking even longer ...

this is just one of those minor details that was over looked when he was hired to take over for Lebeau ... how crucial split seconds are ...

[86WARD]

They won’t fire anyone. It’s not the Steeler Way.

I on the other hand would get rid of Smith and Butler and promote Bradley to DC and figure out special teams later...lol.

[Dwinsgames]

not what they should do .... but what would YOU do .... please remember to vote :coffee:

[AtlantaDan]

5 - do nothing

Early season firings are not how almost all NFL teams roll - especially the Steelers

The time for firings was this past offseason

Tomlin will not do it on his own initiative and IMO would lose the team (coaches & players) if he let AJRII have a ritual human sacrifice - so not only will it not happen but I would not do it

Only action close to a midseason firing I recall was when Cowher took away play calling from the hapless OC Ray Sherman in 1998

Sherman is Cowher's patsy for woeful year
http://old.post-gazette.com/steelers/19990101cook2.asp

Despite his denial last week Tomlin allegedly is making some defensive play calls and might neuter Butler like Sherman was if the defense gets torched this week and at home again (likely suspect for that is the Falcons game in 2 weeks)

[DesertSteel]

If it's a 40+ point output by the Bucs, I'd fire Butler win or lose. That said, what I'd do and what they will do are wildly different. They will do nothing regardless.

[tube517]

3- Fire Danny Smith and buy him some gum

[Fire Goodell]

drink a beer

[cold-hard-steel]

I can't believe how many have thrown the towel in on a season that is still in it's infancy.Little too soon for that in my opinion. Changing coaches ? REALLY? How absurd !

[Born2Steel]

Why is it that on here is the ONLY place I find that Butler is slow in making decisions? Where does this information come from then?

[AtlantaDan]

Why is it that on here is the ONLY place I find that Butler is slow in making decisions? Where does this information come from then?

Presumably based on the late substitutions that have players running on and off the field in the last seconds before the snap and the players on the field frantically running to get into position at the snap

At the game last week when the Chiefs had the ball I elected to focus on that rather than the usual TV focus on the line of scrimmage prior to the snap and was astonished how chaotic it appeared

Either the defensive alignments are taking longer to be called or the new and allegedly improved multiple packages are overwhelming the players (perhaps limited) ability to know them, with 1 or more of the 11 not knowing if that alignment includes them

[Dwinsgames]

Presumably based on the late substitutions that have players running on and off the field in the last seconds before the snap and the players on the field frantically running to get into position at the snap

At the game last week when the Chiefs had the ball I elected to focus on that rather than the usual TV focus on the line of scrimmage prior to the snap and was astonished how chaotic it appeared

Either the defensive alignments are taking longer to be called or the new and allegedly improved multiple packages are overwhelming the players (perhaps limited) ability to know them, with 1 or more of the 11 not knowing if that alignment includes them

and pre hire based on his slow diction ....

you have just a few seconds to make a call and get it in to the green dot ...

Butler cant say his name in a few seconds ... I do not mean this to be rude or ignorant or even insensitive to his speech impediment and slow diction ...

but you do not pick a guy with 1 leg to run in a 4x100 meter race why would you select a guy to be the play caller that has poor speech abilities ..

so while he is perfectly suited to teach / coach / mentor ..... he is not suited to to be the guy with very limited time to speak under pressure ...

Yes that is my opinion but it is based on fact if you have ever listened to the man talk

- - - Updated - - -


Why is it that on here is the ONLY place I find that Butler is slow in making decisions? Where does this information come from then?

see above

[86WARD]

3- Fire Danny Smith and take back his gum

Fixed.

[Born2Steel]

Presumably based on the late substitutions that have players running on and off the field in the last seconds before the snap and the players on the field frantically running to get into position at the snap

At the game last week when the Chiefs had the ball I elected to focus on that rather than the usual TV focus on the line of scrimmage prior to the snap and was astonished how chaotic it appeared

Either the defensive alignments are taking longer to be called or the new and allegedly improved multiple packages are overwhelming the players (perhaps limited) ability to know them, with 1 or more of the 11 not knowing if that alignment includes them

It's MOSTLY set with down and distance vs offensive personnel. You know the down and distance almost instantly after the play. If the offense subs, the defense gets to sub. It's not like Butler is standing there trying to come up with some new plan every defensive snap. Maybe need to look closer at who the players are that are causing the chaos. I still say the defensive woes are due to sub par LBs on this defense. The 3-4 relies too heavily on LBs to think this lot can be dominant.

[st33lersguy]

5, I'd wait until the end of the year to fire people. The best candidates for replacement likely wont be available until then

[86WARD]

and pre hire based on his slow diction ....

you have just a few seconds to make a call and get it in to the green dot ...

Butler cant say his name in a few seconds ... I do not mean this to be rude or ignorant or even insensitive to his speech impediment and slow diction ...

but you do not pick a guy with 1 leg to run in a 4x100 meter race why would you select a guy to be the play caller that has poor speech abilities ..

so while he is perfectly suited to teach / coach / mentor ..... he is not suited to to be the guy with very limited time to speak under pressure ...

Yes that is my opinion but it is based on fact if you have ever listened to the man talk

- - - Updated - - -



see above

That really is a valid point. If he can’t dictate the play in a timely fashion, it causes mayhem

[Born2Steel]

and pre hire based on his slow diction ....

you have just a few seconds to make a call and get it in to the green dot ...

Butler cant say his name in a few seconds ... I do not mean this to be rude or ignorant or even insensitive to his speech impediment and slow diction ...

but you do not pick a guy with 1 leg to run in a 4x100 meter race why would you select a guy to be the play caller that has poor speech abilities ..

so while he is perfectly suited to teach / coach / mentor ..... he is not suited to to be the guy with very limited time to speak under pressure ...

Yes that is my opinion but it is based on fact if you have ever listened to the man talk

- - - Updated - - -



see above

That doesn't answer my question at all.

[fansince'76]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ConsiderateTheseCuttlefish-small.gif

:chuckle:

[Born2Steel]

https://steelersdepot.com/2018/06/film-room-keith-butler-explains-the-downside-to-their-4-3-defense/


https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2018/8/22/17661166/this-could-be-keith-butlers-final-attempt-to-right-the-steelers-defensive-ship-tackling-mike-tomlin


I'm not finding any mention of "Butler has slow diction and calling plays in late". That is what I am asking for.

[GBMelBlount]

6. Fire in the hole!

I am inclined to wait until at least halfway through the season before considering something like this.

[Steeldude]

No sense in firing anyone this early in the season.

Benching players is the best thing to do.

[vasteeler]

I hate to say it but I'm expecting a loss. So, I will just turn the tv off and go to bed.

[Shoes]

I went with #5 at this time, but if you had the option of taking out #2 & 3 at the same time I would have probably picked that. :chuckle:

[Dwinsgames]

https://steelersdepot.com/2018/06/film-room-keith-butler-explains-the-downside-to-their-4-3-defense/


https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2018/8/22/17661166/this-could-be-keith-butlers-final-attempt-to-right-the-steelers-defensive-ship-tackling-mike-tomlin


I'm not finding any mention of "Butler has slow diction and calling plays in late". That is what I am asking for.


I could care less what some article dictates as the potential problem or if they do or do not include my personal theory ...

listen to the man talk draw your own conclusions

[Renegade]

if the steelers lose tonight, knowing I have no authority over front office business, although i wish so badly i did (i promise i would guide us to 3 consecutive SuperBowl titles), i will continue to cheer on the steelers as they welcome the ravens next week.

[SteelMember]

Shots... followed by more shots.

[Craic]

The season's started and this isn't a team that panics after a couple of losses. We ride with who we brought then make changes in the offseason.

[Born2Steel]

I could care less what some article dictates as the potential problem or if they do or do not include my personal theory ...

listen to the man talk draw your own conclusions

I don't really care either. It just you have posted this 'opinion' in nearly every thread on here. I was just wondering if you had something more than just a linguistic bias to go on. Butler has played football in college and NFL, and coached defense for nearly 3 decades. Not sure why some speech impediment is just now rearing it's head. If this were the case they would have signs and other ways to communicate. These guys are professionals. This is what they do. It's no slight to your opinion if I ask where it comes from is it?

[Dwinsgames]

I don't really care either. It just you have posted this 'opinion' in nearly every thread on here. I was just wondering if you had something more than just a linguistic bias to go on. Butler has played football in college and NFL, and coached defense for nearly 3 decades. Not sure why some speech impediment is just now rearing it's head. If this were the case they would have signs and other ways to communicate. These guys are professionals. This is what they do. It's no slight to your opinion if I ask where it comes from is it?

I honestly doubt a speech impediment and slow dialogue would hurt him as a football coach IF he was not the guy who had 10-15 seconds to get a call onto the field .. but since he is I think its sort of a big deal ..sure they could use hand signals but then you are at a competitive disadvantage since they allow 1 helmet with communication gear on the field ..

it didnt harm his ability in the past because in the past he was not the guy responsible to make the calls...

skip till about 1 min in ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdTzUuwckYg



answer this , would this be the guy you would want making a call in 10 to 15 second time frame ?

would not be my first choice thats for sure

[GoSlash27]

Despite his denial last week Tomlin allegedly is making some defensive play calls...

AtlantaDan,
I've always been curious about this, as I've never actually seen video of Tomlin calling a play... ever. My review of this allegation showed it coming from Ed Bouchette, who... let me put it this way: If he told me it was raining outside, and I looked out the window and saw water falling from the sky, I would immediately assume that someone was on the roof with a fire hose.

Is this allegation coming from anyone I would consider credible, or just Bouchette?

Thanks,
-Slashy

[Born2Steel]

I honestly doubt a speech impediment and slow dialogue would hurt him as a football coach IF he was not the guy who had 10-15 seconds to get a call onto the field .. but since he is I think its sort of a big deal ..sure they could use hand signals but then you are at a competitive disadvantage since they allow 1 helmet with communication gear on the field ..

it didnt harm his ability in the past because in the past he was not the guy responsible to make the calls

So, do you have anything other than your own personal opinion on this or not?

[GoSlash27]

AFA what I will do if the Steelers lose to Tampa Bay, I suspect it'll look something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR5q0ajW8Ko
...And then I'll get over it and move on. I would never fire a DC during a season no matter how bad he stunk up the joint. #1 because there's nobody available to replace him with and #2 because it would wreck continuity.

As an aside, if you haven't seen this movie (only parodies) it's really worth your time to check it out.

[Dwinsgames]

So, do you have anything other than your own personal opinion on this or not?

nope , that is all I have ...

but its based on fact ...

1) time is limited to get in a call

2) the man responsible for making those calls is slow to speak

3) stress and or stressful situations most times emphasizes speak problems

those 3 things emphasize my point

again skip forward to around the 1 min mark ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdTzUuwckYg

[Mojouw]

Yeah. Sorry. I don't see it. I see a bit of a good old boy who really wishes he wasn't on camera and is trying to both not swear or say anything "dramatic".

Honestly, from the way you were describing it, I was expecting Butler to be barely coherent.

Several of the most intelligent and decisive people I know, say "umm" every 3rd word when engaging in public speaking. That totally changes when with co-workers or settings not involving a camera or podium.

It may be the case that Butler is "slow" but I suspect it would've been noticed in his 3+ decades of football experience. I mean this is a sport/industry where the smallest details of a persons attitude and demeanor are parsed out endlessly.

[Dwinsgames]

Yeah. Sorry. I don't see it. I see a bit of a good old boy who really wishes he wasn't on camera and is trying to both not swear or say anything "dramatic".

Honestly, from the way you were describing it, I was expecting Butler to be barely coherent.

Several of the most intelligent and decisive people I know, say "umm" every 3rd word when engaging in public speaking. That totally changes when with co-workers or settings not involving a camera or podium.

It may be the case that Butler is "slow" but I suspect it would've been noticed in his 3+ decades of football experience. I mean this is a sport/industry where the smallest details of a persons attitude and demeanor are parsed out endlessly.

its every time he is recorded ... not just this one instance

[Steeler-in-west]

5, but if the Bucs go crazy on our defense, demote butler to linebackers coach (work with porter) and have Tomlin take over defensive coordinator duties for the rest of the season.

[Mojouw]

its every time he is recorded ... not just this one instance

I guess I am thinking that anytime Butler is recorded his "public speaking" persona kicks in. If he is not really comfortable with that, then the verbal ticks you are noticing would come out. All of us have them.

However, you raise a good question as to how Butler talks in a more football specific setting. There may be no way to know this unless we could get access to the Patriots archive of helmet radio tapes.

While I am not attempting to defend Butler and argue that he is a great DC or anything, I have a hard time thinking that no one noticed that Butler can't communicate quickly in his prior decades of coaching experience.

But anything is possible! No reason to totally eliminate this as a potential source of the troubles. Maybe Butler takes M-Saturday and Bradley calls the plays on gameday? Move Butler into the booth and have him provide input from there?

[j-d-s]

I would say it doesn't depend on whether we win or lose, but how much points we give up. If Ryan FitzMAGIC drops a 40-burger on us, Butler has to go.

While I usually think coaching changes during a season a not good, I don't really see how our D could get any worse when giving up 40 points routinely.

[Dwinsgames]

I guess I am thinking that anytime Butler is recorded his "public speaking" persona kicks in. If he is not really comfortable with that, then the verbal ticks you are noticing would come out. All of us have them.

However, you raise a good question as to how Butler talks in a more football specific setting. There may be no way to know this unless we could get access to the Patriots archive of helmet radio tapes.

While I am not attempting to defend Butler and argue that he is a great DC or anything, I have a hard time thinking that no one noticed that Butler can't communicate quickly in his prior decades of coaching experience.

But anything is possible! No reason to totally eliminate this as a potential source of the troubles. Maybe Butler takes M-Saturday and Bradley calls the plays on gameday? Move Butler into the booth and have him provide input from there?

to the bold ... at no other time in his coaching History ( prior to taking the DC job here ) he was not forced into getting his point across in 10 seconds he could take 5 mins in a coaching session it wouldnt matter

[43Hitman]

If the Steelers lose tonight...I will go to sleep. I will get up to go to work tomorrow. I will not perish from the loss. I will root for the Steelers again next week.


Oh, and I would not make any coaching changes at this time. A great man once said, "don't make a decision until you absolutely have too." Or something like that.

[Born2Steel]

to the bold ... at no other time in his coaching History ( prior to taking the DC job here ) he was not forced into getting his point across in 10 seconds he could take 5 mins in a coaching session it wouldnt matter

This whole 'Butler speaks too slowly' theory is baseless and pointless. Makes zero sense. This is not a real issue. I don't blame you for looking for a reason this defense looks bad but truth is this defense has statistically improved under Butler.


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