Interesting Comparisons

[Mojouw]

Read these two articles about RB receptions

https://steelersdepot.com/2018/09/james-conner-so-far-successfully-matching-leveon-bells-receiving-role/ - short piece that argues Bell and Conner are about even

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2018/9/19/17877638/running-backs-passing-game-saquon-barkley-david-johnson - longer piece that really breaks down the different ways offenses try and get the RB the ball in the air.

My question is which way is Conner being used? As a safety valve or is he actually running routes?

Because if he is doing the first, the offense may put up similar #'s as when Bell was here, but it is fundamentally different. See the Ringer piece about how some RBs allow you to create profound mismatches.

Interesting to see someone try and dig out the differences, if any, in how the two are being used.

[86WARD]

The biggest difference imo is how it affects other players. We see AB leading the league in targets but his production is way down meaning the opponents are working on eliminating AB from the game plan and treating the RB like a “normal” position where if Bell was in there, they would have to account for both AB and Bell as major threats.

[Mojouw]

The biggest difference imo is how it affects other players. We see AB leading the league in targets but his production is way down meaning the opponents are working on eliminating AB from the game plan and treating the RB like a “normal” position where if Bell was in there, they would have to account for both AB and Bell as major threats.

I honestly hadn't thought of that! I was putting AB's lack of impact production down to there not being a credible down field threat in the passing game to force safeties and extra DBs away from AB.

But you're right. And I think that was what the Ringer article was getting out. Simply throwing to your RB X number of times is not the thing that offenses should be going for. It is how you arrange those X number of times to get match-ups and mismatches.

Based on what we know, I would be far more concerned with Bell coming out of the backfield or motioning out than Conner. Although if he keeps reeling in one-handed grabs like he did against KC, that may change!

[Fire Goodell]

Conner must have been spending some time with that jugs machine, 2 weeks in a row he's made some absolutely sick 1-handed grabs

[86WARD]

Conner must have been spending some time with that jugs machine, 2 weeks in a row he's made some absolutely sick 1-handed grabs

I don’t know if you’ve ever worn those under armour gloves but you should go to a sports store and try a pair on and have someone throw a ball to you. It makes all those one handed catches much less impressive. Balls literally just stick to those gloves. Still takes athleticism to get up and make those grabs, but far less impressive knowing how those gloves work.

[Fire Goodell]

I don’t know if you’ve ever worn those under armour gloves but you should go to a sports store and try a pair on and have someone throw a ball to you. It makes all those one handed catches much less impressive. Balls literally just stick to those gloves. Still takes athleticism to get up and make those grabs, but far less impressive knowing how those gloves work.

if only those gloves were out when limas sweed played lol

[tube517]

if only those gloves were out when limas sweed played lol

https://cbspittsburgh.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/limas_sweed_84351779.jpg?w=640&h=480&crop=1 Maybe these were Walmart brand??? :lol:

[Dwinsgames]

The biggest difference imo is how it affects other players. We see AB leading the league in targets but his production is way down meaning the opponents are working on eliminating AB from the game plan and treating the RB like a “normal” position where if Bell was in there, they would have to account for both AB and Bell as major threats.


my issue is the bold ...

I think the media and hype has people bullshitted into believing Bell is far more special than what he is for whatever reason ... fact is as a DC for the opposition you are not going to try and game plan to take away a guy who averaged 7.7 yards per reception ( Bell ) in the passing game .. pretty much everyone else on the roster catching balls including Jesse James averaged more

[Mojouw]

my issue is the bold ...

I think the media and hype has people bullshitted into believing Bell is far more special than what he is for whatever reason ... fact is as a DC for the opposition you are not going to try and game plan to take away a guy who averaged 7.7 yards per reception ( Bell ) in the passing game .. pretty much everyone else on the roster catching balls including Jesse James averaged more

For me, the raw #'s are not the whole story. It is how you are getting those raw #'s. If you haven't taken the time yet, read the linked article. It raises some really interesting ideas on how defenses keying on a RB in the passing game can be manipulated into some seriously bad match-ups. Within that article is a link to an older analysis from the same website that demonstrates how Bell was used to dictate formations and alignments to defenses.

The point? None of this changes the fact that L. Bell is no longer a member of the team. Nor should it shift anyone's opinion in regards to that reality. BUT it does open an intriguing line of discussion on what Fichtner's version of the offense is going to do with Conner/Samuels/Ridley in place of Bell? Will they serve as relief valves and occasional targets on downfield wheel routes? Or will he attempt to use his RBs as chess pieces to manipulate the personnel packages, formations, and match-ups that the rest of the offense sees on any given play? While both ends of that spectrum of "RBs in the passing game" can be effective offensive weapons, one end produces the "meh" stats you are describing and one end produces potential big plays for other members of the offense.

[DesertSteel]

The problem seems that on both sides of the ball we don’t have coordinators who can make adjustments. The OC deserves a whole season for a fair evaluation but the DC has had way too much time as it is.

[Fire Goodell]

https://cbspittsburgh.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/limas_sweed_84351779.jpg?w=640&h=480&crop=1 Maybe these were Walmart brand??? :lol:

Probably, he wasn't wearin' the armour! :chuckle:

That'd be a good advertisement for their brand, lol.

[HollywoodSteel]

I don’t know if you’ve ever worn those under armour gloves but you should go to a sports store and try a pair on and have someone throw a ball to you. It makes all those one handed catches much less impressive. Balls literally just stick to those gloves. Still takes athleticism to get up and make those grabs, but far less impressive knowing how those gloves work.

Can you bring Ben to the store with you? You know, to fire off passes right at the glove as hard as he generally throws it to see if it will still stick? ;)

[steelreserve]

The real comparison at this point is, what kind of routes can Conner run compared to nobody, because that's what we've got for Bell.

He seems like he could be a fairly capable receiver on actual routes, but ...


The problem seems that on both sides of the ball we don’t have coordinators who can make adjustments.

So my fear is that whatever role he's cast into now, that's how he'll be used all season exclusively.

- - - Updated - - -


Can you bring Ben to the store with you? You know, to fire off passes right at the glove as hard as he generally throws it to see if it will still stick? ;)

I don't think the gloves will help you catch passes five yards over your head and out of bounds.

[Born2Steel]

When EVERYONE that has watched Bell in action says it. When the analysts that have the job of watching football and passing on the action to viewers/listeners say it. When ex-players say it. When current players say it. When the entire league of players and coaches say it. I believe you can believe there is truth to it. Bell is the best RB in the game today. Defenses must account for him on every play. He does not come off the field. He does everything asked of him in a game setting and does it to the best of his ability. Those of you who want to believe otherwise can do so but you are simply wrong. Nothing against Conner and no disrespect meant but he just is not Bell on the field.

BUT....We have not been able to keep the 'Killer B's' all healthy and playing together for long. As awesome as it looks on paper it just has never panned out the way we want. No finger pointing as all 3 have missed time. It's time to move on from what could be or could have been, to what is. This is who this team is this year. Get on board.

[DesertSteel]

When EVERYONE that has watched Bell in action says it. When the analysts that have the job of watching football and passing on the action to viewers/listeners say it. When ex-players say it. When current players say it. When the entire league of players and coaches say it. I believe you can believe there is truth to it. Bell is the best RB in the game today. Defenses must account for him on every play. He does not come off the field. He does everything asked of him in a game setting and does it to the best of his ability. Those of you who want to believe otherwise can do so but you are simply wrong. Nothing against Conner and no disrespect meant but he just is not Bell on the field.

BUT....We have not been able to keep the 'Killer B's' all healthy and playing together for long. As awesome as it looks on paper it just has never panned out the way we want. No finger pointing as all 3 have missed time. It's time to move on from what could be or could have been, to what is. This is who this team is this year. Get on board.
I will always concede that Bell was the best RB for about one and a half seasons. He wasn't the best last year. As armchair GMs on this board we also like to project 2-3 years out. The armchair GM in me says that Bell won't continue to be what he was in the past. That's a statistically-backed opinion.

[polamalubeast]

The biggest difference imo is how it affects other players. We see AB leading the league in targets but his production is way down meaning the opponents are working on eliminating AB from the game plan and treating the RB like a “normal” position where if Bell was in there, they would have to account for both AB and Bell as major threats.

Maybe but Antonio was productive and very efficient in the 2015 season without Bell.

I think JuJu is also a better receiver than Martavis Bryant was in 2015.

[Rotorhead]

I think AB will start getting better production the more Juju kills ppl, I think the game plan for other def is to remove AB, but with Juju killing them, add in Vance and hopefully more and more Washington, teams won’t be able to keep doing that, then AB’s production will go up to normal (ie best in the league). I do think Bell had something to do with AB’s production last year, but this year his production will be replaced by one of Juju, Vance, Washington and the production will start rolling in. It is nice to have a better pure runner than Bell in Conner (see 4th quarter last game) and I think that will come in handy later on down the season (please stop the empty sets on 1st and goal from the 5 to at least keep the def honest)!

[Edman]

If this were 2014, I would say easily without question that Bell is the best RB in the league and totally invaluable for the Steelers.

But its not 2014-16. It's 2018, and the team has changed.

[stillers4me]

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[86WARD]

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You can’t buy in to that. Defenses play the Steelers totally different with Bell in and out of the offense. Maybe there’s a little bit to it, but you can’t put a ton of stock into numbers like that.

[polamalubeast]

You can’t buy in to that. Defenses play the Steelers totally different with Bell in and out of the offense. Maybe there’s a little bit to it, but you can’t put a ton of stock into numbers like that.

Still, Bell was not very good in the first 5 week last year .... Same thing for Roethlisberger.Only Antonio Brown was good in this offense,first 5 week of last year.

I agree that opposing defenses play different without Bell but this offense can be also be very good without Bell, like that was the case since 2015 without Bell for this offense(close to 30 PPG and over 400 yards per game in over 15 games without Bell).

We can survive on offense.

[BnG_Hevn]

I don’t know if you’ve ever worn those under armour gloves but you should go to a sports store and try a pair on and have someone throw a ball to you. It makes all those one handed catches much less impressive. Balls literally just stick to those gloves. Still takes athleticism to get up and make those grabs, but far less impressive knowing how those gloves work.

That has been my argument all along, especially for Beckham Jr. Give Swann those gloves and see what he can do in his prime.

Players who I've seen make those grabs are Gronk, OBJ, and the fellow from JVille in week 2 which IMO was better than OBJ due to the contortion of his body.

Those "great grabs" are becoming a dime a dozen.

[Mojouw]

You can’t buy in to that. Defenses play the Steelers totally different with Bell in and out of the offense. Maybe there’s a little bit to it, but you can’t put a ton of stock into numbers like that.

That's my observation as well. The offense and Conner have been effective thus far and put up points, but it has looked very different. Defenses are aligning differently and seem far less "jittery" when Steelers send guys in motion or empty out the backfield. No one is scared of Conner yet. Conner has demonstrated he can be useful in the passing game, but defenses are not worried about him single-handedly beating them in the passing game. It is a subtle distinction, but my explain some of the differences.

The offense can still gain yards and score points, it just looks different. I think those crossing routes and drags that seem to be such a staple through 3 weeks are Fichtner's response to not being able to manipulate LBs and Safeties by moving Bell around the formation. Fine, want to keep them in the middle of the field? Then stop this. Move. Counter-Move.

[polamalubeast]

That's my observation as well. The offense and Conner have been effective thus far and put up points, but it has looked very different. Defenses are aligning differently and seem far less "jittery" when Steelers send guys in motion or empty out the backfield. No one is scared of Conner yet. Conner has demonstrated he can be useful in the passing game, but defenses are not worried about him single-handedly beating them in the passing game. It is a subtle distinction, but my explain some of the differences.

The offense can still gain yards and score points, it just looks different. I think those crossing routes and drags that seem to be such a staple through 3 weeks are Fichtner's response to not being able to manipulate LBs and Safeties by moving Bell around the formation. Fine, want to keep them in the middle of the field? Then stop this. Move. Counter-Move.

It's different, but the fact that we have 2 very good receivers and a franchise QB help and Conner just needs to be above average for the offense to be successful.The only way our offense would collapse without Bell is if Conner would have been bad.

[polamalubeast]

1044949946405978112

Roethlisberger was also on fire like that in the second half of the season in 2015 and second half of the season last year

With the way our defense is playing right now, steelers need to continue to trust Ben with Bell or without Bell.

[Mojouw]

It's different, but the fact that we have 2 very good receivers and a franchise QB help and Conner just needs to be above average for the offense to be successful.The only way our offense would collapse without Bell is if Conner would have been bad.

Agreed. In fact, I think they can get by with Conner being average.

It is possible to have similar outcomes through different methods. I think that is what is going on here. The offense with Bell is different than with Conner and that doesn't mean better or worse -- just different. It will be interesting to see how Fichtner and opposing defenses deal with Conner over the next 13 weeks.

[polamalubeast]

Agreed. In fact, I think they can get by with Conner being average.

It is possible to have similar outcomes through different methods. I think that is what is going on here. The offense with Bell is different than with Conner and that doesn't mean better or worse -- just different. It will be interesting to see how Fichtner and opposing defenses deal with Conner over the next 13 weeks.

The Steelers rely on Roethlisberger more when Bell is not there

This is the biggest difference and Ben plays very well for most of the time when he has more responsibility in the last couple years for most of the time.

In fact, the steelers started counting on Roethlisberger more since the game against the Titans last year, and our offense has been a success since. Before this game our offense was up and down.

[AtlantaDan]

A question is whether Steelers were maximizing a defense having matchup concerns with Bell by 2017

In 2014 Bell was running crossing routes that created matchup nightmares - Bengals took care of that by blowing up his knee with a low hit on one of those routes in week 17 of the 2014 season

No hard data to back it up but my impression is those routes were dramatically reduced going forward after 2014 - to the extent Bell ran routes past the line of scrimmage since then it was those that did not expose him to low hits as much such as this TD on a wheel route against Jax in the playoffs (could not embed video)


http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-miss-plays/0ap3000000906384/Can-t-Miss-Play-Le-Veon-Bell-makes-INSANE-bobbling-TD-catch

But as his yards per catch dropped off dramatically Bell's dump off receptions increased in 2017

1015313453735608321

Le’Veon Bell’s receiving has become as much ‘safety valve’ as it has route running

In 2017, Bell was targeted a whopping 106 times by Ben Roethlisberger (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/1630/ben-roethlisberger), and according to Pro Football Focus (PFF), over half of those targets went to bell at the line of scrimmage, or behind....

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2018/7/7/17544066/leveon-bells-receiving-has-become-safety-valve-as-it-has-route-running-steelers-pff-todd-haley

In the linked article Bell claimed Fichtner intended to use him less as a safety valve this season - we may never know

[polamalubeast]

1044958277891739650

[steelreserve]

It has been noticeable that there is a difference with the starting OL intact versus banged up and missing guys.

Since Munchak, that no longer means it's a porous mess with a sack every other play. But the running game does take a hit.

I think Conner is a back that can succeed with decent blocking, but may lack the ability to create plays from scratch on his own. In other words, an adequate RB but not an emerging superstar.

[Steeldude]

I don’t know if you’ve ever worn those under armour gloves but you should go to a sports store and try a pair on and have someone throw a ball to you. It makes all those one handed catches much less impressive. Balls literally just stick to those gloves. Still takes athleticism to get up and make those grabs, but far less impressive knowing how those gloves work.

I wish they would ban the gloves.

[SteelMember]

Agreed. In fact, I think they can get by with Conner being average.

It is possible to have similar outcomes through different methods. I think that is what is going on here. The offense with Bell is different than with Conner and that doesn't mean better or worse -- just different. It will be interesting to see how Fichtner and opposing defenses deal with Conner over the next 13 weeks.

I think Conner is developing at a decent pace. It's only his 2nd year, and he's already made improvements from last. The one thing you're probably not going to see much from him, is lining up in the slot. Bell did that quite a bit. Obviously where he got his worthy of a #2 WR notions.

[steelreserve]

I think Conner is developing at a decent pace. It's only his 2nd year, and he's already made improvements from last. The one thing you're probably not going to see much from him, is lining up in the slot. Bell did that quite a bit. Obviously where he got his worthy of a #2 WR notions.

I saw Bell line up in the slot a bunch but never actually do much from there. Almost all of his impact as a receiver was from taking a short pass and making it into something with a run-after-catch. I don't think he was really out there changing game plans with his route-running ability.

If anything, Conner seems to be more of a threat to catch the ball 10-15 yards down the field, but less of a threat to turn a dump-off into a 15-yard gain.

[Mojouw]

I wish they would ban the gloves.

Because in this world stickum also doesn't exist?

[AtlantaDan]

Because in this world stickum also doesn't exist?

Certainly used in the past

https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn-s3.si.com%2Fs3fs-public%2Fstyles%2Fmarquee_large_2x%2Fpublic%2F2014 %2F07%2Fstickum.jpg%3Fitok%3DiEzFm7eE&w=800&q=85

Of course it was banned in the early 80s (although Jerry Rice allegedly put it on his gloves well after that)

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/05/nfl-notes-launch-of-stickum-ban/

[polamalubeast]

1045000890736873473

[Fire Goodell]

1045000890736873473

Interesting, that shatters the myth that Bell is a threat when split out wide lol. 35 yards on 5 targets? I wonder how many of those receptions were screen plays, probably all of them :chuckle:

[Mojouw]

But it isn't just targets. How often is Bell out there split wide? Because, typically, teams have not put a LB over him. They have walked a safety down or a shifted a CB over. That means single coverage or no safety help on someone else - like AB, Juju, Bryant, or McDonald.

It isn't always about what one guy does out of a formation, it is about what that formation causes the 11 defensive guys to do.

Same logic as to why the Steelers make sure to always have a guy that defenses know they take deep shots with. It alters how the defense responds to the offense.

[tube517]

Certainly used in the past

https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn-s3.si.com%2Fs3fs-public%2Fstyles%2Fmarquee_large_2x%2Fpublic%2F2014 %2F07%2Fstickum.jpg%3Fitok%3DiEzFm7eE&w=800&q=85

Of course it was banned in the early 80s (although Jerry Rice allegedly put it on his gloves well after that)

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/05/nfl-notes-launch-of-stickum-ban/

Stickum or no stickum Hayes was crazy good in 1980. Then he teamed w/Mike Haynes and they shut out the Skins very good receivers in the Super Bowl a few years later.