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View Full Version : MojoUW Bashes Some Coaches



Mojouw
09-17-2018, 09:59 PM
Everyone thinks I support Tomlin and company no matter what, but taking a look at this https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2018/9/16/17867530/patrick-mahomes-ii-is-off-to-the-best-start-for-a-qb-ever

There are some things to take issue with from a plan and execution point of view. The biggest problem is 4/6 TDs were on plays were the Chiefs lined up with 5 receivers (WR/RB/TE in some combination) and then went vertical on the Steelers. This is a package and a set of route concepts that Butler has never had an answer for. Like not once. Saw it pinball up the Steelers in that shootout in Seattle awhile back and it has been a problem for almost as long as I can remember. So this is a coaching problem.

TD 1 - 5 receivers and for some reason the Steelers stay in base and have an odd combo short and long zone coverage on the TE with VW and Bostic. Why? No one knows. This seems to be a bad process that leads to a terrible result. All-22 film will tell more and hopefully the folks at Steelers Depot or somewhere break this down further.

TD 2 - 5 in the pattern again and they are in at least nickel (I think). The question is what are 42 and 28 doing on this play? Doesn't appear to be much besides covering grass and not responding to the routes quick enough. Is this how the coverage is taught? Or are the players slow in picking up their keys and moving? Is it taught correctly and players are making good reads, just too slow to respond? Either of these, mean that once again the Steelers are responding to a formation and set of offensive concepts known to trouble them with duct tape and bailing wire rather than a well honed plan.

TD 3 - more standard short area running package. Edmunds needs to put Hunt on the ground. The play design does put Edmunds in a high stress position and is designed for the offense to bet on the great RB winning the one on one battle. But if offenses can do it, so can defenses. You draft safeties in the first round to make that play 10/10 times. Reasonable or not that is the reality. So not a coaching issue here, but a player execution issue almost totally.

TD 4 - were are back to the empty set 5 in the pattern here. This time the Steeler respond with some sort of sub package that appears to have Watt responsible (#90?) for dropping into a middle zone. It appears that Watt either doesn't get deep enough on his drop or he plays it to the outside and the KC player leverages it inside. Here, I am not sure I can fault coaching. I mean if you have to pick someone to turn and run with a TE, Watt is not the worst idea anyone has ever had. Either he didn't run it right, or the safety didn't squeeze down quick enough. So again, execution?

TD 5 - Appears to be some sort of short yardage or goal line package by both teams. Burns just needs to get his head around quicker. Plain and simple. Nothing complicated to deal with here. Either get your head around quicker or close on the receiver with more violence and push him out of the back of the endzone. Also, sometimes crap happens and you get beat. I'm not losing too much sleep over this one. QB throws a dart on a bit of scramble drill an the offensive player beats the defender to the spot. Happens. 40% of Ben R's TDs come this way.

TD 6 - Again the empty set with 5 guys running routes. This time, Hill slips the jam at the line and beats Burns up the sideline. Also, Dupree held Kelce on the play. Overall, I don't have a real big problem with this defensive approach. If you insist on leaving LBers out there, Burns one on one on the outside and Dupree running with the TE certainly a far better idea than zoning it up with the ILBs. As to the specifics of Burns play, he missed the jam and Hill needs the slightest space to make anyone in the league look foolish. Ask any CB in the league what happens in single coverage when they miss the jam on AB. Crap happens.

So what is my complaint? For the most part, the plan was okayish. But on at least 1 of the TD plays the plan was just asinine. It was to roll out a coverage scheme/approach that hasn't worked when better players were running it. On the other plays, one has to question why these guys can't align their zones. In other words, to properly defend all these vertical routes simultaneously the various defenders need to pass guys from one zone to the next. I suspect this is really complex. These mental midgets can not seem to get it right. SO....either coach better or stop asking them to do it! How the hell was it surprising that KC's offense had this approach? Everyone knew they were going deep this year. We knew it since the moment Mahomes was drafted. So the Steelers plan for dealing with it was...? Repeat the same process as before hoping for different results? That is frustrating.

Now ALL the above being said. Can we talk about how in love I am with KC's offense? It is just so so so good. They are going to make a ton of teams look foolish and under-prepared this year. Do yourself a favor and read this -- https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2018/9/17/17869740/kansas-city-chiefs-patrick-mahomes-explosive-offense

Mojouw
09-17-2018, 10:20 PM
Addendum:

Here is how I see it if we take the blame and place at the coaching staffs feet:

1. Would the plan have worked better if Haden was in there and Sutton didn't self-destruct? Meaning not having Haden and the "benching" of Sutton for stretches may have forced the coaching staff into a limited number of options. This is the "no plan survives contact with the enemy" idea. Perhaps the plan was "okay" but the poor play of Sutton starts a cascade of alternatives that drive a poor result because there were no good alternatives?

2. If they are planning on passing vertical routes from one zone to the next, how does this keep going so bad? Like run 5 receiver vertical concepts with the scout team until the first string defense gets it right every time. The terrifying thing may be that this is actually happening and players can not translate practice habits to game day. If that is the case, then what practice habits need to change? Again, we will never know.

3. Butler and company have good plans and the players simply are not up to executing them. So where does that leave things? Either coach 'em up and hope this gets better each week or light the playbook on fire and start over in the middle of the season. Neither is very hopeful.

My extremely limited point is that we just can not really parse this out based on the publicly available information. And new information is not going to be forthcoming that will really allow us to evaluate things. The only "hope" is that this is a rough draft of what the defense looks like later in the year. Increased execution and familiarity leads to better results.

teegre
09-17-2018, 10:24 PM
I’ll add these two points:

1. Special teams gave the Chiefs the ball in GREAT field position. Three drives, 106 yards, three TDs. Even our defense from 2008 would have given up 10 points (1 FG, 1 TD, 1 stop).

2. Once that hole was created, the offense (and defense) were altered incredibly. The gameplan went out the window.

Mojouw
09-17-2018, 10:31 PM
I’ll add these two points:

1. Special teams gave the Chiefs the ball in GREAT field position. Three drives, 106 yards, three TDs. Even our defense from 2008 would have given up 10 points (1 FG, 1 TD, 1 stop).

2. Once that hole was created, the offense (and defense) were altered incredibly. The gameplan went out the window.

That can't be disputed either.

There is a ton of good foundations on the defensive side of the ball. Can it be brought together as a unified whole quickly enough? That remains unclear. I actually have confidence that it can. Individual mileage on that feeling will certainly vary.

teegre
09-17-2018, 10:42 PM
That can't be disputed either.

There is a ton of good foundations on the defensive side of the ball. Can it be brought together as a unified whole quickly enough? That remains unclear. I actually have confidence that it can. Individual mileage on that feeling will certainly vary.

Here is why I am hopeful:

1. Sean Davis has only played two games at his true position: FS. He’s already better there (than at SS), because we don’t see him being bad. Soon we will see him being good. As in...

Last year: bad plays were often & obvious
Now: not bad, nothing great (where is he?)
Soon: nothing bad, lots of good

2. TJ Watt I’m not sure why some Steelers fans are still critical of this kid. He had a better rookie season than his brother, and was a monster last week. Yet, he’s being ripped for “disappearing” this week. Even the “unquestioned God of linebacking” had games where he was “average” on the stat sheet. (And, if we look carefully, the Chiefs were targeting/specifically blocking Watt on almost every play.)

3. Terrell Edmunds looks tentative, but he’s always around the ball. It reminds me a lot of Troy as a rookie: thinking/playing slow, but around the ball.

4. These guys are young. If LeBeau were still the coach, most would be on the bench. The learning curve brings about bad plays here & there.

5. Heyward & Tuitt If the secondary can improve and cover for any amount of time, these two will be a force.

Mojouw
09-17-2018, 10:50 PM
Here is why I am hopeful:

1. Sean Davis has only played two games at his true position: FS. He’s already better there (than at SS), because we don’t see him being bad. Soon we will see him being good. As in...

Last year: bad plays were often & obvious
Now: not bad, nothing great (where is he?)
Soon: nothing bad, lots of good

2. TJ Watt I’m not sure why some Steelers fans are still critical of this kid. He had a better rookie season than his brother, and was a monster last week. Yet, he’s being ripped for “disappearing” this week. Even the “unquestioned God of linebacking” had games where he was “average” on the stat sheet. (And, if we look carefully, the Chiefs were targeting/specifically blocking Watt on almost every play.)

3. Terrell Edmunds looks tentative, but he’s always around the ball. It reminds me a lot of Troy as a rookie: thinking/playing slow, but around the ball.

4. These guys are young. If LeBeau were still the coach, most would be on the bench. The learning curve brings about bad plays here & there.

5. Heyward & Tuitt If the secondary can improve and cover for any amount of time, these two will be a force.

Yup!

I guess it starts to come down to whether you base-line believe that a 3-4 zone blitz foundation can be built out to be successful against the schemes that are emerging in the NFL. Can you do that against RPOs, the Pistol, and spread influenced concepts? I don't see how replacing a standard DL with a more nimble and schematically flexible LB or DB can do anything but help defend these types of things.

Couple that with where do you see the mental ceiling for the Steelers top 12-15 players on defense? Can they take in complex ideas each week and develop the "mental muscle memory" to react quickly and in a coordinated fashion across the formation? To date the answer is a solid "maybe". With a pessimist viewpoint that it is about two steps away from "no way in hell". But the optimist viewpoint, that you have laid out pretty well, is "but of course, it just takes more than 2 weeks."

Dwinsgames
09-17-2018, 11:06 PM
Yup!

I guess it starts to come down to whether you base-line believe that a 3-4 zone blitz foundation can be built out to be successful against the schemes that are emerging in the NFL. Can you do that against RPOs, the Pistol, and spread influenced concepts? I don't see how replacing a standard DL with a more nimble and schematically flexible LB or DB can do anything but help defend these types of things.

Couple that with where do you see the mental ceiling for the Steelers top 12-15 players on defense? Can they take in complex ideas each week and develop the "mental muscle memory" to react quickly and in a coordinated fashion across the formation? To date the answer is a solid "maybe". With a pessimist viewpoint that it is about two steps away from "no way in hell". But the optimist viewpoint, that you have laid out pretty well, is "but of course, it just takes more than 2 weeks."

I think the 3-4 is still plenty viable .... what I think is a must in it to work these days we simply do not have ( or do not use what we do have of it )

Hargrave will not work as a center piece in the 3-4 sorry I know he has a lot of fans here but simply put he is far to light and is not the space eater you have to have ....

why you ask , simple you must stuff the run or at the very least slow it down considerably and occupy space in the middle of the line ... McCullers is the only guy we have that can play that part and he has not yet shown he can with any amount of consistency but if he could ...that enables you to use not 1 but 2 ILB with run and hit /cover ability at both ILB spots problem is we do not have 1 let alone 2 guys capable of being this kind of player ... perhaps in time we manage 1 with the UDFA Mathew Thomas but as of today we have no viable man ready to play that role and we would need 2 ...

Pass rush has to come from the outside backers predominately not the DEs the ends are for controlling the tackles/guards , we have shifted our philosophy away from a true 3-4 several years back and consistently are dropping OLB as much as rushing them ... that should rarely happen and now it is considered a normal happening ....

the 3-4 works , just not this rendition of it ( well not very well anyways )

Mojouw
09-17-2018, 11:13 PM
I think the 3-4 is still plenty viable .... what I think is a must in it to work these days we simply do not have ( or do not use what we do have of it )

Hargrave will not work as a center piece in the 3-4 sorry I know he has a lot of fans here but simply put he is far to light and is not the space eater you have to have ....

why you ask , simple you must stuff the run or at the very least slow it down considerably and occupy space in the middle of the line ... McCullers is the only guy we have that can play that part and he has not yet shown he can with any amount of consistency but if he could ...that enables you to use not 1 but 2 ILB with run and hit /cover ability at both ILB spots problem is we do not have 1 let alone 2 guys capable of being this kind of player ... perhaps in time we manage 1 with the UDFA Mathew Thomas but as of today we have no viable man ready to play that role and we would need 2 ...

Pass rush has to come from the outside backers predominately not the DEs the ends are for controlling the tackles/guards , we have shifted our philosophy away from a true 3-4 several years back and consistently are dropping OLB as much as rushing them ... that should rarely happen and now it is considered a normal happening ....

the 3-4 works , just not this rendition of it ( well not very well anyways )

Can’t say I truly disagree with any of that. Would be interested to know fine grained details of how other NFL teams are building their 3-4 fronts. Are they along the traditional lines you capably lay out or are their lineman moving towards what Steelers are trying?

Prior to Shazier going down the Steelers vision for an updated 3-4 looked okay to pretty darn good. But that could've easily been a transcendent player masking deficiency.

Kinda how it looks like James and Bosa are gonna make the Chargers version look great no matter what.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fire Goodell
09-18-2018, 12:18 AM
KC's offense is what the young money crew + bell was supposed to be

teegre
09-18-2018, 06:40 AM
Yup!

I guess it starts to come down to whether you base-line believe that a 3-4 zone blitz foundation can be built out to be successful against the schemes that are emerging in the NFL. Can you do that against RPOs, the Pistol, and spread influenced concepts? I don't see how replacing a standard DL with a more nimble and schematically flexible LB or DB can do anything but help defend these types of things.

Couple that with where do you see the mental ceiling for the Steelers top 12-15 players on defense? Can they take in complex ideas each week and develop the "mental muscle memory" to react quickly and in a coordinated fashion across the formation? To date the answer is a solid "maybe". With a pessimist viewpoint that it is about two steps away from "no way in hell". But the optimist viewpoint, that you have laid out pretty well, is "but of course, it just takes more than 2 weeks."

IMO, the talent is there. But, when the DC can’t get the calls made within that 15 second window, resulting in things like wrong substitutions, too many men on the field, and/or the defense not on the same page... it wouldn’t matter if we had Troy and Harrison in their primes.

SUMMATION:
3-4... 4-3... 3-3-5... if the players are confused, the scheme doesn’t matter.

GBMelBlount
09-18-2018, 07:16 AM
Here is why I am hopeful:

1. Sean Davis has only played two games at his true position: FS. He’s already better there (than at SS), because we don’t see him being bad. Soon we will see him being good. As in...

Last year: bad plays were often & obvious
Now: not bad, nothing great (where is he?)
Soon: nothing bad, lots of good

2. TJ Watt I’m not sure why some Steelers fans are still critical of this kid. He had a better rookie season than his brother, and was a monster last week. Yet, he’s being ripped for “disappearing” this week. Even the “unquestioned God of linebacking” had games where he was “average” on the stat sheet. (And, if we look carefully, the Chiefs were targeting/specifically blocking Watt on almost every play.)

3. Terrell Edmunds looks tentative, but he’s always around the ball. It reminds me a lot of Troy as a rookie: thinking/playing slow, but around the ball.

4. These guys are young. If LeBeau were still the coach, most would be on the bench. The learning curve brings about bad plays here & there.

5. Heyward & Tuitt If the secondary can improve and cover for any amount of time, these two will be a force.

This, this and this:


4. These guys are young. If LeBeau were still the coach, most would be on the bench. The learning curve brings about bad plays here & there.

There is a lot of talent on defense, but with all of the youth and inexperience on the field, it could take a year or more for the coaches and players to figure everything out.

AtlantaDan
09-18-2018, 07:51 AM
Now ALL the above being said. Can we talk about how in love I am with KC's offense? It is just so so so good. They are going to make a ton of teams look foolish and under-prepared this year. Do yourself a favor and read this -- https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2018/9/17/17869740/kansas-city-chiefs-patrick-mahomes-explosive-offense

The Chiefs are where the league office wants the NFL to be - devastating offense and awful defense. Berry returning to the secondary may help but the over/under for Chiefs games should be in the 60s.

DesertSteel
09-18-2018, 08:41 AM
Oh great! Another Fire Tomlin thread!! :D

fansince'76
09-18-2018, 09:14 AM
Oh great! Another Fire Tomlin thread!! :D

If you think you could do better, put in your résumé! j/k :chuckle:

DesertSteel
09-18-2018, 10:04 AM
If you think you could do better, put in your résumé! j/k :chuckle:
I have no cool shades.

tube517
09-18-2018, 10:14 AM
I have no cool shades.

Play poker?

Rotorhead
09-18-2018, 05:31 PM
Part of the issues I have with the coaches is the fact they keep playing ppl they shouldn’t (Dupree?). Losing Haden probably hurt more than we know, he is the Vet back there and probably has more to do with getting the backend running well. But the seeming lack of gameplanning is just frustrating. Why don’t we have Edmunds on Kelce and Burns on Hill all day, or even the 2nd half? Especially if (as stated above) the players are either too stupid or young to figure out the assignments. Or after the 1st half was there still no answer for the complete lack of pass rush? It is the same issues week in and week out (it seems) that never get solved. That is what the Coaches are there for, fix the obvious problems. Individual missed plays, poor talent (to a point) are not their fault, but complete defensive breakdowns with no corrections are.