Tomlin has created a terrible culture in Pittsburgh.

[StillCurtains]

Hello all!

Before I get started on this, I just want to say that I am African American myself, so this has nothing to do with race. Tomlin has had some very good accomplishments to this organization. He has never had a losing season which is a great accomplishment as he enters his 12th season.

He took over an 8-8 Cowher team and led them to a 10-6 record in 2007 with a playoff appearance. He overworked that team, which caused injuries and an early playoff exit. He learned his lesson and made proper adjustments for a 12-4 2008 (tel:12-4 2008) Superbowl Season.

However, those were mostly players Cowher drafted, and besides Ben, they are all long gone. For those that don’t like the “Cowher’s Players” mantra, there is a huge difference here. Cowher created a culture that always had his teams under the radar. Although there was no social media, the media and reporters were what got player’s comments out back then.

Cowher always had his teams tight lipped. He tolerated no “I” over the team. He created a culture of discipline, hard work, fundementally sound, smart football. He instilled it in his players, and they did not cross the line.

What Tomlin has created is atrocious. Has he brought in some very talented players in his tenure? Sure he has! Has he had some very good success in the regular season? Sure he has! Now although Cowher has his warts as well, his teams didn’t beat themselves. Most of Cowher’s issues were based on not having a QB for the majority of his career.

The truth is the team takes on the personality of the coach. We can take last year as an example. You had Tomlin publicly looking ahead to New England. How do you think that played out in the Locker room? Mike Mitchell was one that talked about them. You had Bell tweet about a rematch with them the day before the Jags playoff game.

It’s an elitist attitude that has been created. It’s based on arrogance with a me first attitude. It’s no longer about hard work, respect for your opponents, fundementals and attention to detail. It’s one of the reasons his teams struggle against sub 500 teams.

Social media and other outlets play a huge factor in what ails this team as well.
He runs a loose locker room. Ben flies off at the mouth at times on his radio show. You had the Harrison disaster created on social media last year. I already mentioned Bell before last year’s Jags playoff game. He also gets into arguements with fans and guys like Skip Bayless. His penchant for weed doesn’t help either. Not only is he holding out this year, but also did last year. This is also a guy that has been blasting the organization with his contract demands in his rap music.


Did I mention AB’s post game facebook live distraction in the 2017 playoffs? He calls a Pittsburgh reporter a clown on twitter, threatens an espn reporter for his article, and now responds with bad taste of being traded about a fan’s remarks. We witnessed a sideline blowup yesterday and also last year.

Martavis Bryant made comments about Coates on social media last year, then later made trade demands on social media. This was the only guy that received discipline. It was probably because Bryant is only a fringe player but not a star. Now you have guys that put out their dirty laundry from the locker room.

Players such as Dupree, Pouncey and DeCastro commented on things that happened with Harrison last season. Now they are speaking to the media about their displeasures with Bell’s holdout. These are things that would not have been tolerated under Cowher. This type of activity is a reflection of what you see on the field.

They are totally dysfunctional. They are more focused on themselves and social media activity than they are on the details of their jobs, and how to carry themselves as a professional. Tomlin doesn’t address it because he stated it’s the times we live in now.

What you see on the field is sloppiness. No fundementals. Incredibly stupid, highly penalized, indisciplined and total combustion. Many of you can say what you want, but this used to be an organization that you could be proud of win or lose.

Now what we see is what used to be the Dallas Cowboys. The Steelers are this generation’s media circus. The Steelers have now become a weekly soap opera, and the laughingstock of the NFL.

[86WARD]

Nothing you said is false.

[Fire Goodell]

Add lack of clock management, which has been a trend under Tomlin. Situational football is the difference between teams that deliver in the clutch or choke. The final drive by the Steelers even though it was a scoring drive, was pathetic from the clock management standpoint.

[Mojouw]

This is all without any context or comparison to the NFL as a whole.

It is so unhinged as to be laughable.

Look at the penalty data -- https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/penalties-per-game?date=2018-02-05

Every year BUT this one, the Steelers have been closer to the least penalized team per game than the most - typically about 1 penaltiy more per game than the least penalized squad and 3 penalties less than the most penalized team . This year it has been bad so far. HOWEVER -- the crew that opened the season with them called 11 penalties on one team and 12 on the other. Rookie ref leading that group seems on track to call a ton of penalties in his games. Yesterday, I didn't see the game so I can't say. I can say that KC had 6 in their opener and 12 yesterday. Is it possible that we are again facing a flag happy crew? Or does everyone that plays the Steelers get penalty loco as well? Tomlin is a pretty convincing guy...maybe he loosens up all locker rooms in a 2 mile radius?

So what are we left with of the original and extremely popular claim that the Steelers are a highly penalized team? We are left with the fact that it isn't borne out by any reasonable look at the stats. But, you got a pretty solid story there that makes you feel better, so who am I to stand in the way.

[StillCurtains]

This is all without any context or comparison to the NFL as a whole.

It is so unhinged as to be laughable.

Look at the penalty data -- https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/penalties-per-game?date=2018-02-05

Every year BUT this one, the Steelers have been closer to the least penalized team per game than the most - typically about 1 penaltiy more per game than the least penalized squad and 3 penalties less than the most penalized team . This year it has been bad so far. HOWEVER -- the crew that opened the season with them called 11 penalties on one team and 12 on the other. Rookie ref leading that group seems on track to call a ton of penalties in his games. Yesterday, I didn't see the game so I can't say. I can say that KC had 6 in their opener and 12 yesterday. Is it possible that we are again facing a flag happy crew? Or does everyone that plays the Steelers get penalty loco as well? Tomlin is a pretty convincing guy...maybe he loosens up all locker rooms in a 2 mile radius?

So what are we left with of the original and extremely popular claim that the Steelers are a highly penalized team? We are left with the fact that it isn't borne out by any reasonable look at the stats. But, you got a pretty solid story there that makes you feel better, so who am I to stand in the way.

In talking in regards to penalties, I am speaking THIS season! Have you been watching so far? Also this is only one issue in regards to discipline. Do you feel that we have players that conduct themselves like professionals as players like, Heath Miller, James Farrior, Jerome Bettis, Hines Ward and Troy P?

Are these players smart as those guys were? Do they play as a team as they did? Are they fundementally sound like they were? Do they avoid causing team distractions as they did? Do they know how to communicate and where to line up as they did?

Do these guys keep their composure when things are going rough, as those guys did? Were those guys being blasted in a negative light by the media as these guys are?

As I said, those were guys that were drafted by Cowher. The first thing Cowher instilled in his players was the representation that you carry when playing for an organization like the Pittsburgh Steelers. The lesson learned in coming through the door is being a professional with high character. After that, everything else falls in place on the field.

What we have now is players with careless attitudes that only care about their own personal interest. They lack professional ettiquette in terms of dealing with team values, the media and fans. It has all translated to sloppy, low character, combustible and dysfunctional play on the field. That all starts from the head coach, who has let the players run the locker room.

[Mojouw]

In talking in regards to penalties, I am speaking THIS season! Have you been watching so far? Also this is only one issue in regards to discipline. Do you feel that we have players that conduct themselves like professionals as players like, Heath Miller, James Farrior, Jerome Bettis, Hines Ward and Troy P?

Are these players smart as those guys were? Do they play as a team as they did? Are they fundementally sound like they were? Do they avoid causing team distractions as they did? Do they know how to communicate and where to line up as they did?

Do these guys keep their composure when things are going rough, as those guys did? Were those guys being blasted in a negative light by the media as these guys are?

As I said, those were guys that were drafted by Cowher. The first thing Cowher instilled in his players was the representation that you carry when playing for an organization like the Pittsburgh Steelers. The lesson learned in coming through the door is being a professional with high character. After that, everything else falls in place on the field.

What we have now is players with careless attitudes that only care about their own personal interest. They lack professional ettiquette in terms of dealing with team values, the media and fans. It has all translated to sloppy, low character, combustible and dysfunctional play on the field. That all starts from the head coach, who has let the players run the locker room.

You can't have it both ways. For every undisciplined Artie Burns that Tomlin bears the blame for, he has to get credit for the disciplined players. When it comes to undisciplined play and locker room stuff, I think we can realistically talk about a handful of guys. Bell, AB, Burns, Mitchell, Davis, and Bryant. Well 3 of those players are not currently on the team. In contrast the entire offensive and defensive line appears to made up of fundamentally sound and disciplined players who are regarded as stable veteran team leaders. Or have AV, DeCastro, Pouncey, Heyaward, etc suddenly become locker-room cancers? What about all of the linebacking group? What about Nix and the TE's?

So Burns blows assignments alot and Davis seems to be misaligned along with Bostic. So the idiot and two guys in new positions. Weird. Can't imagine how that happens.

The locker room stuff has almost completely come from Bell, Brown, Mitchell, and Bryant in the last 3 seasons or so. Only one of those guys currently wears the uniform. So maybe there is a connection there.

As to during Cowher's time. C'mon man. Faneca popped off repeatedly and at length about playing under a rookie QB. I can only imagine if Porter had access to social media what would've happened. Goodness knows he ran his mouth a bunch to just the standard media. The Plaxico Burress divorce was not smooth and painless. Ben has been contradicting the team injury report since his rookie year.

To composure, I've never seen a Steelers team quit. Noll, Cowher, or Tomlin -- I've never seen it happen. I've seen plenty of other franchises have rosters that stopped trying for a quarter, a half, a game, whatever. Down 21-0, the team clawed their way back to being in it right to the end. That's all the composure I need.

The same penalty charting site I previously posted has the last 3 years of Cowher's tenure. Team was basically being penalized at the same 5-6 penalties a game that they have been running at for Tomlin's entire tenure prior to this season. In both games this season the team has been called for an extreme amount of penalties. The other team has been called for the exact same extreme amount. Like I said, it would be interesting to see if that was just two flag-happy crews or an actual team problem.

[fansince'76]

They are totally dysfunctional. They are more focused on themselves and social media activity than they are on the details of their jobs, and how to carry themselves as a professional.

Just let me know when TJ Watt gets a game ejection during warmups because he got into an idiotic fight with an opposing player.

Speaking of which, Porter talked more shit on his own than half the current roster on a pretty regular basis.

And then there were the scrubs who had absolutely zero room to talk shit also doing so. Remember Lee "Paper Champions" Flowers?

Not saying this team doesn't have issues, but I'm pretty tired of the romanticized revisionist history when it comes to the Cowher era.

[Fire Goodell]

Just let me know when TJ Watt gets a game ejection during warmups because he got into an idiotic fight with an opposing player.

Speaking of which, Porter talked more shit on his own than half the current roster on a pretty regular basis.

And then there were the scrubs who had absolutely zero room to talk shit also doing so. Remember Lee "Paper Champions" Flowers?

Not saying this team doesn't have issues, but I'm pretty tired of the romanticized revisionist history when it comes to the Cowher era.

Difference between that is the defense in Cowher's day put their money where their mouth was. This current team is all talk no substance.

And I don't fault Joey Porter for stepping up to Sapp. Sapp was always being disrespectful jumping through a teams' warmup and I'm glad Joey almost knocked him out for thinking he could do that to us. Sometimes you gotta love someone with that kind of fire Porter brought to the field. Yeah he had a mouth but you could always count on him showing up every Sunday.

[fansince'76]

Difference between that is the defense in Cowher's day put their money where their mouth was. This current team is all talk no substance.

And how many 21-point deficits did those teams overcome? When Korkie was behind center it was pretty much game over when the team got down by 10.

[Fire Goodell]

And how many 21-point deficits did those teams overcome? When Korkie was behind center it was pretty much game over when the team got down by 10.

How many 14 point leads did we blow under Cowher?

Not disagreeing that I'd rather not have trash talking in the media, but it was a little different then. At least when Porter trashed a team, it'd be the team we're playing next. Joey pretty much would say I'm coming to kick your @$$ and when he talked, he'd bring it. It was pretty damned embarassing last season when players were already talking New England before we even played Jacksonville. I had a bad feeling when that happened.

I'm not too high on Joey Porter the coach, but ANY team would have absolutely loved having a prime Joey Porter on their team. The dude was intense and just a hell of a player. And he wasn't a distraction in the locker room, if anything, the rest of the team fed off his energy and intensity in game.

[fansince'76]

How many 14 point leads did we blow under Cowher?

Not disagreeing that I'd rather not have trash talking in the media, but it was a little different then. At least when Porter trashed a team, it'd be the team we're playing next. Joey pretty much would say I'm coming to kick your @$$ and when he talked, he'd bring it. It was pretty damned embarassing last season when players were already talking New England before we even played Jacksonville. I had a bad feeling when that happened.

How many 14-point leads did we ever have under Cowher? It seems like we got a 10-point lead and went turtle mode. I clearly remember the complaints of the offense not scoring enough.

Cowher teams also notoriously started slow. Not many 7-1 records at midseason during the Cowher regime that I can recall. 4-4/5-3 was generally the norm.

[86WARD]

The distractions and drama is far more advanced under Tomlin than it was Cowher. It’s not even close actually. It’s just the sign of the times.

[86WARD]

Just let me know when TJ Watt gets a game ejection during warmups because he got into an idiotic fight with an opposing player.

Speaking of which, Porter talked more shit on his own than half the current roster on a pretty regular basis.

And then there were the scrubs who had absolutely zero room to talk shit also doing so. Remember Lee "Paper Champions" Flowers?

Not saying this team doesn't have issues, but I'm pretty tired of the romanticized revisionist history when it comes to the Cowher era.

Porter backed up his trash talking. Don’t recall anyone having an issue with it either.

[Mach1]

And how many 21-point deficits did those teams overcome? When Korkie was behind center it was pretty much game over when the team got down by 10.

How many times did they get down by 21 in the first quarter under Cowher?

Tomlin has a short time to get a handle on things before he completely loses the team. I like Tomlin but something seriously needs to change with his coaching style.

[fansince'76]

Porter backed up his trash talking. Don’t recall anyone having an issue with it either.

I was never a fan of it, personally.


How many times did they get down by 21 in the first quarter under Cowher?

Tomlin has a short time to get a handle on things before he completely loses the team. I like Tomlin but something seriously needs to change with his coaching style.

Seeing as how it was well over a decade ago and I tend to put bad games out of my mind pretty quickly, I'd have to go hit Pro Football Reference to find specific examples, but there were definitely plenty of duds on Cowher's watch.

Again, I'm not saying this team doesn't have issues, I'm simply taking issue with the IMO overly-romanticized view of the Cowher era.

[StillCurtains]

Just let me know when TJ Watt gets a game ejection during warmups because he got into an idiotic fight with an opposing player.

Speaking of which, Porter talked more shit on his own than half the current roster on a pretty regular basis.

And then there were the scrubs who had absolutely zero room to talk shit also doing so. Remember Lee "Paper Champions" Flowers?

Not saying this team doesn't have issues, but I'm pretty tired of the romanticized revisionist history when it comes to the Cowher era.

Watt is the type of player that I feel will be the leader of the defense. A very high character, hard working guy with a business approach.

Yes I remember Flowers paper champions comment. That came due to having a rift with Sapp. He has been known to running his mouth to players in game, but nothing out of line or being a team distraction.

Joey was the guy every team needs on their team. He was the emotional leader. He knew what buttons to push on the team to get them motivated. Cowher knew this. We would not have won many of the divisional rivalries vs the Bengals and Ravens without Joey.

He talked to the opposing players on the team and backed it up. He said the Colts were soft to the media before the playoff game. The Steelers were underdogs! He was motivating the team! Bell’s comments before the Jags playoff game was overlooking them. There is a difference.

We all know how Joey pressed up against the line. Anytime Cowher may have felt Joey crossed it, Cowher addressed it. One thing you can say about Joey is he never disrespected Cowher when he addressed him. He loved and respected him.

His Locker rooms were never out of control. Tomlin refutes being on Hard Knocks but yet, his team is the reality show each week. You hear more about drama with the Steelers now, then you do about the Cowboys and Bengals. That’s saying alot!

[Mojouw]

Line up suspensions between the two teams. Who had more?

Do an honest assessment of explosive quotes and media nonsense. I bet it comes out roughly equal.

The Steelers have no more or less media and locker-room stuff than any other team. You just hear about it now because we are rabid fans and about 30% of the internet is devoted to the NFL.

Also want to bet me that Porter disrespected a whole bunch of coaches. I bet if Adam Schefter and Twitter could go back in time solely what they got from Porter would pay for the trip.

Also, you can't have one kind of yapping as good and one as bad because you don't like the outcome. If that is the case than what this entire thread is about is how you don't like it when your favorite team losses. Instead you have created a thread about how you don't like the personality of your favorite team. So either you like teams that have fiery emotional guys on them that run their mouth or you don't.

I mean if all of this is because you get the sad feelings whenever the Steelers lose games and it makes you angry, well all I can say is welcome to being a sports fan. Try and not let it get you down?

[steelcityboyz]

Hello all!

Before I get started on this, I just want to say that I am African American myself, so this has nothing to do with race. Tomlin has had some very good accomplishments to this organization. He has never had a losing season which is a great accomplishment as he enters his 12th season.

He took over an 8-8 Cowher team and led them to a 10-6 record in 2007 with a playoff appearance. He overworked that team, which caused injuries and an early playoff exit. He learned his lesson and made proper adjustments for a 12-4 2008 (tel:12-4 2008) Superbowl Season.

However, those were mostly players Cowher drafted, and besides Ben, they are all long gone. For those that don’t like the “Cowher’s Players” mantra, there is a huge difference here. Cowher created a culture that always had his teams under the radar. Although there was no social media, the media and reporters were what got player’s comments out back then.

Cowher always had his teams tight lipped. He tolerated no “I” over the team. He created a culture of discipline, hard work, fundementally sound, smart football. He instilled it in his players, and they did not cross the line.

What Tomlin has created is atrocious. Has he brought in some very talented players in his tenure? Sure he has! Has he had some very good success in the regular season? Sure he has! Now although Cowher has his warts as well, his teams didn’t beat themselves. Most of Cowher’s issues were based on not having a QB for the majority of his career.

The truth is the team takes on the personality of the coach. We can take last year as an example. You had Tomlin publicly looking ahead to New England. How do you think that played out in the Locker room? Mike Mitchell was one that talked about them. You had Bell tweet about a rematch with them the day before the Jags playoff game.

It’s an elitist attitude that has been created. It’s based on arrogance with a me first attitude. It’s no longer about hard work, respect for your opponents, fundementals and attention to detail. It’s one of the reasons his teams struggle against sub 500 teams.

Social media and other outlets play a huge factor in what ails this team as well.
He runs a loose locker room. Ben flies off at the mouth at times on his radio show. You had the Harrison disaster created on social media last year. I already mentioned Bell before last year’s Jags playoff game. He also gets into arguements with fans and guys like Skip Bayless. His penchant for weed doesn’t help either. Not only is he holding out this year, but also did last year. This is also a guy that has been blasting the organization with his contract demands in his rap music.


Did I mention AB’s post game facebook live distraction in the 2017 playoffs? He calls a Pittsburgh reporter a clown on twitter, threatens an espn reporter for his article, and now responds with bad taste of being traded about a fan’s remarks. We witnessed a sideline blowup yesterday and also last year.

Martavis Bryant made comments about Coates on social media last year, then later made trade demands on social media. This was the only guy that received discipline. It was probably because Bryant is only a fringe player but not a star. Now you have guys that put out their dirty laundry from the locker room.

Players such as Dupree, Pouncey and DeCastro commented on things that happened with Harrison last season. Now they are speaking to the media about their displeasures with Bell’s holdout. These are things that would not have been tolerated under Cowher. This type of activity is a reflection of what you see on the field.

They are totally dysfunctional. They are more focused on themselves and social media activity than they are on the details of their jobs, and how to carry themselves as a professional. Tomlin doesn’t address it because he stated it’s the times we live in now.

What you see on the field is sloppiness. No fundementals. Incredibly stupid, highly penalized, indisciplined and total combustion. Many of you can say what you want, but this used to be an organization that you could be proud of win or lose.

Now what we see is what used to be the Dallas Cowboys. The Steelers are this generation’s media circus. The Steelers have now become a weekly soap opera, and the laughingstock of the NFL.Good post, StillCurtains, You're always gonna have the Tomlin apologists no matter if the players are running the locker room or not.

[BlackAndGold]

Mr. Rooney just need to fix this shit. Put your foot down.

Tomorrow's press conference with Tomlin will be interesting. If he has another comment about not being bothered(paraphrasing) by the recent actions, then my god.

[AtlantaDan]

Cowher always had his teams tight lipped. He tolerated no “I” over the team. He created a culture of discipline, hard work, fundementally sound, smart football. He instilled it in his players, and they did not cross the line.

Always?

I can only assume you have repressed your memories of the 1999 season when Cowher's disciplined, fundamentally sound team went 6-10. This column describes what happened in only the end of season loss to the Titans at Three Rivers, which included a Steelers player being something other than tight lipped by calling out his teammates.

Forget the 309 yards that Mike Tomczak passed for and consider what he had to say after the game. His words were a slap at his teammates and the coaching staff. And this from a player who desperately wants to be signed to a new contract by the Steelers.

"I think we need to get back to fundamentals and discipline." Tomczak said.

Reminded that a need to get back to discipline and fundamentals indicated the team was lacking in those areas, Tomczak said, "Sometimes, you lose focus during the course of a game or during the course of a week of practice. You just have to remember the little things that got you where you were. Pay attention to detail. This is your profession. Treat it like your profession. Don't take anything for granted. Don't say, 'I'll study that tomorrow.' Study it now when it's important and it means something because too many guys are fighting [to win.]...

The lead became 18 midway through the fourth quarter when Richard Huntley fumbled, and Denard Walker recovered and ran 83 yards for a touchdown. Huntley had a chance to tackle Walker, but he thought the play was over and walked away....

There's no telling where wide receiver Bobby Shaw's head was when he caught a 35-yard touchdown pass from Tomczak with less than two minutes remaining. In celebrating the score, Shaw pulled up his Steelers' shirt to show a Superman T-shirt underneath....his gesture speaks to the lack of discipline on the team.

So does the fact two players were ejected. Troy Edwards was thrown after Walker's fumble recovery for starting a pushing match with Dainon Sydney, whose crime was that he blocked Edwards on the play.

Still later, Wayne Gandy was ejected for shoving referee Tom White.

http://old.post-gazette.com/steelers/20000103smizik2.asp

Those were the days when Steelers teams were smart and fundamentally sound, eh?

Tomlin needs to get his team under control but finally winning the Super Bowl did a lot to rehab Cowher's image from seasons like 1999 and other instances where his team was not focused, such as the disastrous home AFC championship game loss to the Chargers.

The past looks a lot better when the present is unsatisfactory.

[teegre]

Tomlin needs to get his team under control

...

The past looks a lot better when the present is unsatisfactory.

Thank you. :nod:

I see two separate (and kind of unrelated) topics here. 1. Tomlin needs to “unleash hell”, and 2. Cowher was a more bettererer coach.

1. We all agree. Tomlin has to self-evaluate his team. Firing Butler would be a good start, but it simply is not going to happen. Regardless, Tomlin needs to change “something.”

2. The myth that Cowher had so much more discipline is partially due to time/distance (we’ve forgotten a lot of his warts). Also, the analogy that I like to use is that crime is down, but reporting of (every little) crime is way, way up. As in: we hear more about the shenanigans, because of social media and/or due to there being two 24-hour news outlets (ESPN, NFL Network).

-1994: Eric Green coordinates the filming of a Super Bowl video... before the AFCCG.

-2001: Cowher has players book hotel rooms for the Super Bowl... before the AFCCG.

-Plaxico is habitually late to team meetings.

-Joey the Mouth gets kicked out of a game... during warmups.

-Joey the Mouth enters the Ravens’ team bus.

-et cetera

[fansince'76]

Good find, Dan. Also from that article:


There's no telling how far the Steelers would have regressed if their season hadn't come to a merciful conclusion yesterday. But based on the evidence presented at Three River Stadium, it wasn't hard to picture some pretty awful play from a team that -- and this seems hard to believe today -- was in the AFC title game two seasons ago.

The Steelers lost to the Tennessee Titans, 47-36, in terrible display of football that showed just how far the team has tumbled.

But I guess pointing stuff like this out makes us Tomlin "apologists."


...finally winning the Super Bowl did a lot to rehab Cowher's image from seasons like 1999 and other instances where his team was not focused, such as the disastrous home AFC championship game loss to the Chargers.

Not to mention that the one SB he did finally win was so poorly played that pretty much everybody who isn't a Steelers fan STILL thinks the fix was in and that Dan Rooney paid off the officiating crew.

[Edman]

Funny how 1999 is cited as the only example of a Cowher team looking dumb. A 6-10 season of a declined squad in transition.

By 1999 that team was eviscerated by age and free agency, and were devoid of talent. "Korkie" and the offense was dealing with the third OC in two years. After Chan Gailey left and the Ray Sherman era came to a close after a few games.

Tomlin, for the most part is not in any rebuilding phase as far as we know. He has a quarterback, a running back, and one of the best wide receivers of his generation. He has done next to nothing with that talent but underachieve, talk a bunch of shit, and fail spectacularly in the postseason. They've certainly done a great job embarrassing themselves week after week too. Yet there is drama and turmoil that makes the T.O-Era Cowboys look sane.

Not even remotely comparable to the greasefire going on right now.

[fansince'76]

Funny how 1999 is cited as the only example of a Cowher team looking dumb. A 6-10 season of a declining squad in transition.

By 1999 the 90's teams were eviscerated by free agency, and were devoid of talent.

Tomlin, for the most part is not in any rebuilding phase as far as we know. He has a quarterback, a running back, and one of the best wide receivers of his generation. He has done next to nothing with that talent but underachieve, talk a bunch of shit, and fail spectacularly in the postseason. They've certainly done a great job embarrassing themselves week after week too. Yet there is drama and turmoil that makes the T.O-Era Cowboys look sane.

Not even remotely comparable.

Don't forget 1998 and 2003, which were also LOSING seasons. And then there was the implosion in the 2001 AFCCG.

How much more evidence is needed to be dug up and cited?

More rock solid discipline on display here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNOvBSTqLoc

[Edman]

Don't forget 1998 and 2003, which were also LOSING seasons. And then there was the implosion in the 2001 AFCCG.

How much more evidence is needed to be dug up and cited?

I get your evidence of bad Steeler teams just fine, the thing is that they were one-time occurences. Tomlin's failing culture have been a consistent occurence spanning back a few years. Locker room drama, offseason distractions, unchecked egos, a quarterback who is growing into another Brett Favre, dysfunction and underachievment. The circus show this year is the result of the buildup of years of lacking coaching and letting the toxic culture grow into a monster.

1998 was a collapse and Kordell Stewart hitting a wall and turmoil at OC (Sherman getting fired mid-season and replaced with Gilbride).

2003 was the Steelers experiementing with Air Maddox Offense and failing spectacularly, as Tommy Maddox hit the wall and showed why he wasn't a hot commodity in the NFL, forcing the Steelers to draft a QB (Or force Cowher to). 15-1 a season later, a Super Bowl right after.

Again, one season occurences and one-time failings. Was Cowher perfect? Hardly. But his overall coaching work has more stability than Tomlin's overall. Just because Tomlin hasn't had a losing season, doesn't make his coaching any less questionable.

[fansince'76]

Again, one season occurences and one-time failings. Was Cowher perfect? Hardly. But his overall coaching work has more stability than Tomlin's overall. Just because Tomlin hasn't had a losing season, doesn't make his coaching any less questionable.

Except that the Steelers W/L record IMPROVED every year from 2015-2017. I don't think that would happen if the team was as out of control as people seem to think it is.

Sorry, wins and losses still matter.

[86WARD]

• In November 1992 — Cowher's first year *— Eric Green got busted for violating the league's substance-abuse policy.

• In 1996, Byron "Bam" Morris pleaded guilty to felony possession of marijuana.

• In 2000, Richard Huntley and Earl Holmes got involved in a minicamp wooden-stool-swinging brawl in the locker room.

• Plaxico Burress was cited for an open-container violation in Cleveland and public drunkenness in Virginia while he was a Steeler. He also got ejected for fighting James Trapp during a Ravens game, and he skipped a minicamp practice as a Mother's Day protest.

• Marvel Smith was arrested for using marijuana two weeks before training camp started in 2002.

• Porter got ejected for a pregame fight in Cleveland and tried to fight Ray Lewis outside of the Baltimore team bus in 2003. This after he missed the game with his injury from a gunshot wound.

• Hines Ward held out of training camp in 2005.

That’s a list of some “drama” that occurred under Cowher’s watch. Pretty comparable to what has happened under Tomlin’s tenure. Difference is A LOT of the stuff that is occurring under Tomlin has a lot of other strings and sub stories attached and is a lot of unnecessary banter. That’s due to social media and the media presence of today.

Ie) LeVeon Bell doesn’t show for camp...you have these idiots take to social media ragging on their teammate in the most public of ways. Not like Ramon Foster and Marcus Gilbert were walking around the mall talking about it and a couple teenagers and their Mom heard it, they took their convo in front of millions of people.

Ie) Pouncey takes to the media after James Harrison leaves. How about just say no comment and end it there.

Ie) AB (and other players) and their social media brand. They are saying (and doing) outrageous things to gain followers, clicks, views, whatever at the expense of a drama free football season.

These examples can go on and on and on. The bottom line is these guys all want to be a story, they all want to be “the guy”, the one getting all the attention and social media is giving them this platform. The “drama story of the day” occurs and then these guys extend it to their own personal story and make it even bigger than it needs to be.

This is something Tomlin needs to get under control in one form or fashion. The drama will happen, it happens on every team...you just don’t need to make it a bigger story and ass more life to it than need be.

Stay off social media and learn the phrase “no comment”.

[teegre]

Don't forget 1998 and 2003, which were also LOSING seasons. And then there was the implosion in the 2001 AFCCG.

How much more evidence is needed to be dug up and cited?

More rock solid discipline on display here:


Those three losing seasons don’t count. Only Tomlin’s losses count.

Just like how Cowher had a LOSING record in the playoffs (8-9) until the 2005 run. That is 13 seasons of mediocrity. :scared: Up until 2005, people were crucifying Cowher... by comparing him to Noll’s teams of the 70s, and citing how he hadn’t done anything since Noll’s players had retired. And, I defended him... because, it was obvious that he was a good coach.

Déjà vu all over again.

[AtlantaDan]

Funny how 1999 is cited as the only example of a Cowher team looking dumb. A 6-10 season of a declined squad in transition.

By 1999 that team was eviscerated by age and free agency, and were devoid of talent. "Korkie" and the offense was dealing with the third OC in two years. After Chan Gailey left and the Ray Sherman era came to a close after a few games.

Tomlin, for the most part is not in any rebuilding phase as far as we know. He has a quarterback, a running back, and one of the best wide receivers of his generation. He has done next to nothing with that talent but underachieve, talk a bunch of shit, and fail spectacularly in the postseason. They've certainly done a great job embarrassing themselves week after week too. Yet there is drama and turmoil that makes the T.O-Era Cowboys look sane.

Not even remotely comparable to the greasefire going on right now.

1999 was a grease fire

If you are one of the few head coaches that lasts more than 5 years you are going to have transition seasons. But my point about 1999 was not that it was a losing season but that the team fell apart from a discipline standpoint. It was bad enough that some thought Cowher was going to lose his power struggle with Tom Donohoe and get fired.

And it is not as if that is the only season where Cowher's teams were not focused like a laser on the task ahead.

One of the first times Tomlin got blasted was for the 2009 post-Super Bowl season when the team failed to unleash hell.

But Cowher matched that with his 2006 season where the team went 0-4 in preseason and the season was pretty much cooked after a 2-6 start. Ben's motorcycle accident obviously was a big factor (as was Troy being injured for most of the 2009 season) but it certainly didn't help that Cowher was cashed out after contract extension talks ended and he was looking for the exit during that season after his family had already moved to Raleigh during the offseason.

Cowher was an excellent coach - but the contention he always imposed a Lombardi like focus on discipline and being ready on game day throughout his 15 season run is pretty easily rebutted.

[DesertSteel]

And how many 21-point deficits did those teams overcome? When Korkie was behind center it was pretty much game over when the team got down by 10.
The better question is how many 10-point leads did they give up and lose?

[Neversatisfied]

Anyone willing to look at the situation in Pittsburgh with an unbiased opinion can see the incredible dysfunction. The Pittsburgh Steelers have big problems, they appear larger than in years leading up to 2018-2019. The Window is rapidly closing on Ben, AB and Bell are beyond selfish and out of control on social media leaving the offensive line who to many peoples displeasure offered their opinion on the Lev Bell fiasco. The defense is in shambles after a total rebuild (minus 2-3 players) all the while the Coaching staff has a handle on nothing. The coaching staff (and this includes Mike Tomlin) has underachieved it's way to 3 playoff wins in 8 seasons. There appears to be no in-game adjustments, poor fundamentals and a
general unprepared approach. The talent level on the offensive side is plentiful but defensively lacking to put it mildly. The Culture in that locker room needs to do a 180 but that might take quite a while.

[Dwinsgames]

its as bad as I have ever seen it in my 47 years of being a fan of this team .... suspect worst in my lifetime

[st33lersguy]

Tomlin has been doing a poor job since last year. The level of drama is beyond ridiculous and beyond normal levels. Then there is the underachieving on the field. Being bailed out by star players numerous times against weaker competition only to bow out meekly in the first playoff game despite being the most talented team in the AFC. Then there is this disaster thus far, and things only appear to get worse. Tomlin needs to step up his game and that includes tightening the loose ship as well as a serious overhaul in the defensive coaching staff. Not making changes and sticking to the status quo is not an option. Sadly at this point I think it is going to take a great defensive coordinator to win a championship again because Tomlin with Keith Butler is a disaster and it is readily apparent these defensive position coaches are not coaching up these young players at all

[Renegade]

Even if the other teams under Cowher and Tomlin's team that had Cowher's players (I mean seriously, Tomlin inherited an amazing team and that's not really up for debate), had their share of problems and embarrassing, dysfunctional moments, those teams were more defend-able and the chaos was more tolerable. This team is a miracle... all the talent, considerable success at times, but they are grating to the soul (at least mine). I would rather have the better behaved 8-8 squad from a couple years back than a 13-3 team that talks too much, gets in to trouble and ultimately doesn't win anything either.

[Mojouw]

I am old and grumpy and do not like social media. Or at least social media that is used in activities or types of expression I disagree with. I like to apply the ideals and values I hold to people 20-40 years younger than me with no regard to the fact that those decades of difference in age mean we won't have the same values and approaches to life. Change makes me feel yucky and uncomfortable. Know when else I feel gross? When my favorite sports team that I heavily emotionally invested in loses. I get the sads. So then I get the angries and rant on the internet. Sometimes even social media - no irony there! Also, I don't want to take the time to break down or understand the details on anything other than "Steelers are better and more special than ANY other sports franchise and the Rooneys have created a marvelous sports utopia where only good people are allowed in." Thinking through complex football concepts is not what I want to do - I want to cheer my Steelers to victories! So let's blame low hanging fruit like "culture" and "the locker room" rather than engage in actual thought about what is going on. Also, when presented with evidence to demonstrate that past special Steelers squads had their own fair share of problems, I will just ignore, deny, and spin out of it. Kinda like Mendenhall carrying the ball...

That is one extreme. i am guilty of the other - ignoring all off-field issues and only focusing on what I can see on Sundays. I suspect the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

The Steelers have no more or less drama than any other NFL team. Social media has had a negative impact on the Steelers and any other team's ability to keep stuff "private". Related to this is that the players under say about 26 or so have an almost totally different definition of privacy than most NFL fans. Sharing everything around them at every moment is as natural to them as breathing. Every team faces this challenge and no one has a good answer for it yet.

The Steelers have a schematic problem on defense. Full Stop. I can no longer contextualize or equivocate on that point. They do NOT have a realistic answer for empty sets that flood zones with vertical routes. Heaven forbid they throw a crosser or drag between the verticals - we may see the ILBs and safeties just spin in place. Butler and company need to devise another solution. Because the two or three we have seen in the past few seasons are not producing acceptable results.

However, this coaching failure does not then need to be exaggerated to be a covering explanation for every thing with the word "Steelers" in it. As I have mentioned before a football team is what 60 some players and dozens of support staff. The Steelers drama in the past 3 years has come from like 4 of those people. Go find me a group of say 150 people where there aren't 4 dramatic pains in the rear who can't follow the rules. Never going to happen. It doesn't exist.

[Fire Goodell]

The thing that bothers me about Tomlin is that if you're a talented player on the team, you basically get a free pass on anything. If you're a starter, you're not held accountable. Bell skipping walkthroughs last year, Artie Burns tossing his helmet in week 1, and now this, and basically no repercussions. Cowher or Noll would have had their asses and made them sit on the bench or suspended them, not caring if it was their star player or not. Not holding players accountable for these kind of actions sort of builds an atmosphere that if you're a star player that you're bigger than the team. And we're especially seeing that with Bell and AB.

[DesertSteel]

The Steelers have no more or less drama than any other NFL team.
The worldwide perception outside of Mojouw-ville is that they do.

[EzraTank]

Can anyone tell me the last thing Tom Brady posted on social media? Yeah me neither.

That's why they win year after year after year. Belechick and Brady. You think Belechick would tolerate the crap that goes on here? The guy BENCHED his best corner back in the Superbowl last year for putting himself before the team.

We can hate the Patriots all we want but they are run like the military. Why do you think Brady has different receivers and their defense is always a bunch of no-name guys that just win. Outside of Randy Moss (at the tail end of his career when he way more mature) who has Brady had that's been considered a stud receiver?

I've said it in other threads, we will never win a Superbowl as long as Tomlin is here. As the OP stated, Cowher's defensive players have aged out. Ben is all that remains and Ben was very young when Cowher left. Tomlin has gotten lucky with a few draft picks (Shazier, Brown, Bell) but being that he came from the defensive side of coaching his team's sure don't seem like it.

It's sad but true. If this team craps the bed this season it may be time to show Tomlin and all his coaches the door. Let the new HC bring in his own coordinators. We need a guy that will put the clamps on this team and put an end to this "LOOK AT ME" nonsense.

[fansince'76]

The thing that bothers me about Tomlin is that if you're a talented player on the team, you basically get a free pass on anything. If you're a starter, you're not held accountable.


NFL notes: Tomlin benches Bryant for social media use
(https://www.richmond.com/ap/nfl-notes-tomlin-benches-bryant-for-social-media-use/article_d203107a-4c1b-594e-86fb-384494b09003.html)
:noidea:

[fansince'76]

Can anyone tell me the last thing Tom Brady posted on social media? Yeah me neither.

That's why they win year after year after year. Belechick and Brady. You think Belechick would tolerate the crap that goes on here? The guy BENCHED his best corner back in the Superbowl last year for putting himself before the team.

We can hate the Patriots all we want but they are run like the military. Why do you think Brady has different receivers and their defense is always a bunch of no-name guys that just win. Outside of Randy Moss (at the tail end of his career when he way more mature) who has Brady had that's been considered a stud receiver?

I've said it in other threads, we will never win a Superbowl as long as Tomlin is here. As the OP stated, Cowher's defensive players have aged out. Ben is all that remains and Ben was very young when Cowher left. Tomlin has gotten lucky with a few draft picks (Shazier, Brown, Bell) but being that he came from the defensive side of coaching his team's sure don't seem like it.

It's sad but true. If this team craps the bed this season it may be time to show Tomlin and all his coaches the door. Let the new HC bring in his own coordinators. We need a guy that will put the clamps on this team and put an end to this "LOOK AT ME" nonsense.

Uh, OK...

Report: Tom Brady, Bill Belichick, Robert Kraft drama sparks dysfunction with Patriots
(https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/patriots/2018/01/05/report-tom-brady-bill-belichick-robert-kraft-drama-sparks-dysfunction-patriots/1006630001/)

[Fire Goodell]

NFL notes: Tomlin benches Bryant for social media use
(https://www.richmond.com/ap/nfl-notes-tomlin-benches-bryant-for-social-media-use/article_d203107a-4c1b-594e-86fb-384494b09003.html)
:noidea:

Bryant isn't anything special and proved that. If AB or Bell did the same thing it'd get swept under the rug. Burns would have gotten harsher treatment if our CB room wasn't such a steaming pile of crap

[fansince'76]

Good lord. I give up. Every time something is posted in black and white to refute something, the goalposts get moved.

[EzraTank]

Uh, OK...

Report: Tom Brady, Bill Belichick, Robert Kraft drama sparks dysfunction with Patriots
(https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/patriots/2018/01/05/report-tom-brady-bill-belichick-robert-kraft-drama-sparks-dysfunction-patriots/1006630001/)

That was all BS put out by the media. And with all that supposedly happening what did they do last year? Oh go to yet another Superbowl.

[fansince'76]

That was all BS put out by the media.

Sure it was. :rolleyes:


And with all that supposedly happening what did they do last year? Oh go to yet another Superbowl.

Yep. Which they lost. If you're not first, you're last.

[Fire Goodell]

Good lord. I give up. Every time something is posted in black and white to refute something, the goalposts get moved.

yeah you should, you ain't going to change my mind or many others on the issue once our minds our made up

[AtlantaDan]

its as bad as I have ever seen it in my 47 years of being a fan of this team .... suspect worst in my lifetime

There have been some other bad patches in the pre-internet/social media days

Never seen this much drama from a steelers team
Ed Bouchette - You're probably not old enough, but check out 1977

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/09/18/ed-bouchette-steelers-chat-9-18-18/stories/201809180131

1977 was a train wreck



cocaine possession trial of Ernie Holmes in Texas in February

Raiders defensive back George Atkinson sued Chuck Noll for calling him part of the NFL’s “criminal element” and the trial took place in Oakland...Noll acknowledged that some of his own players by their play could be lumped into the “criminal element” category. One was Mel Blount. (https://archives.post-gazette.com/clip/14523380/the_pittsburgh_press/)

Not only was Blount holding out for a new contract, he then sued Noll for $5 million for his comments about him in Oakland.
Jack Lambert held out over his contract until Sept. 1 and his agent asked the Steelers to trade him


http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2017/10/20/steelers-distractions-martavis-bryant-trade-rumors-ben-roethlisberger-retirement/stories/201710200067

Of course that team was so loaded with talent it slipped all the way to a 9-5 record and was tied at Denver in the 4th quarter of a playoff loss to the AFC champs

[Edman]

Yep. Which they lost. If you're not first, you're last.

Losing a Super Bowl repeat after coming off a Super Bowl Championship season. Seven AFC Title game appearances in a row? Man, those Patriots don't know what they're doing and the Steelers are the bestest organization ever with the bestest Quarterback ever that will take them to the top.

3-4 Postseason record since 2014? 38 points to Blake Bortles and lose at home? Don't make any changes and keep the Defensive Coordinator who is running the absolute biggest shitshow of a defense in Steelers recent history? Get that nonsense out of here. The Steelers know whats up.

It's that level of unfounded arrogance that unfortuately permeates through the fanbase as well as the team.

[fansince'76]

Losing a Super Bowl repeat after coming off a Super Bowl Championship season. Seven AFC Title game appearances in a row? Man, those Patriots don't know what they're doing and the Steelers are the bestest organization ever with the bestest Quarterback ever that will take them to the top.

3-4 Postseason record since 2014? 38 points to Blake Bortles and lose at home? Don't make any changes and keep the Defensive Coordinator who is running the absolute biggest shitshow of a defense in Steelers recent history? Get that nonsense out of here. The Steelers know whats up.

It's that level of unfounded arrogance that unfortuately permeates through the fanbase as well as the team.

Missed my point completely.

[DesertSteel]

Uh, OK...

Report: Tom Brady, Bill Belichick, Robert Kraft drama sparks dysfunction with Patriots
(https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/patriots/2018/01/05/report-tom-brady-bill-belichick-robert-kraft-drama-sparks-dysfunction-patriots/1006630001/)
The difference is that they've been going to the Super Bowl, and spanking the Steelers in the process. Drama is palatable if you're winning. I think everyone understands that.

[fansince'76]

The difference is that they've been going to the Super Bowl, and spanking the Steelers in the process. Drama is palatable if you're winning. I think everyone understands that.

Agreed, but that's not the assertion that was made that that post was in response to.

And I wonder what folks would say if Roethlisberger began dragging a "body coach" with virtually zero professional credentials and who also didn't work for the team around team facilities that Tomlin and/or ARII disapproved of?

[Mojouw]

Erased because I was being a jerk.

[Mojouw]

The worldwide perception outside of Mojouw-ville is that they do.

Side by side comparisons of teams seems to show they do not.

AB yelling at a coach and saying something dumb on Twitter is not why this team lost on Sunday. The inability of the defense to deal with empty formations that attack up the field is why they lost. Being attacked at the edges in the run game and vertically down the field is why they lost last year. They fixed the run game stuff (seemingly) but have yet to formulate an answer for the vertical stuff.

Why complicate and confuse the issue? Until the Pittsburgh Steelers devise a way for the players on the current roster to stop a good to great offense from spreading them out and attacking down the field against overmatched and confused defenders, they will continue to lose games and look foolish doing it. The entire locker room could light their phones on fire and go dark on social media for the rest of the season. Spend their entire time watching tape, lifting weights, and chewing glass. If they can not figure out how to stop those types of formations and running games that beat slower LBers to the corner, they will be a .500 team at best.

I am honestly confused why a large portion of fans refuse to accept that the answer is that cut and dried. It is simple and straightforward, yet this team has no good answer for the question. And they keep getting asked the question over and over again.

But tell me again about Twitter. Because that is a "feel good answer". A few punishment laps and a handful of up-downs should drive the coach's point home. Maybe a fine or a short benching if it really needs to be made clear. Some good old fashioned discipline is all that is needed. Then Bostic will magically be able to run with Travis Kelce 20 yards downfield? Edmunds and Burnett will suddenly understand zone concepts better?

Discipline isn't the answer. Either a better plan or better players.

[fansince'76]

No more ping pong!

https://d2gg9evh47fn9z.cloudfront.net/800px_COLOURBOX23817923.jpg

:chuckle:

[Mojouw]

Okay. I've ranted and raved and that isn't productive. Not like anyone wants to engage with the jackass standing in the corner yelling at everyone.

But someone needs to walk me through the connections between whatever the hell a "culture" is and how it led to what happened on Sunday.

I start with the following assumptions:
1. Everyone who has ever spent time around the time during the Tomlin tenure speaks glowingly about how organized, crisp, and results oriented practice sessions are. The offense is executing well, so this can't just be the team spends all week dinking around instead of preparing in an appropriate manner.
2. Many players on the roster never say or do anything "dramatic".
3. Many players on the roster have made immense strides in their development as football players during their time on a Tomlin led team.
4. Many former Steelers attempt to return as soon as possible.

Taking all that, how does the locker-room make Bostic too slow to cover Kelce? I'm told that Watt is a breakout player who is just the very model of a modern major football player but he repeatedly did not execute his assignment on Sunday. Heyward and Tuitt are held up as exactly who and what you want on your roster. They didn't do squat.

I mean the most "dramatic" Steelers in 2018 are the offensive line and AB. The line played really well on Sunday and AB was less than his usual dominant self and seemed to have a tantrum, but it wasn't like he was out there dogging it and stinking up the place. I think he had 17 targets for 9 catches.

So is it the locker-room and discipline OR is it that the Steelers got asked the same question they have tripped over every time they are asked it for the past, what 4 years? 5?

[lipps83]

Discipline isn't the answer. Either a better plan or better players.

Yeah, but AB said something I didn't like on Facebook/twitter/instagram/newspaper. Who is going to make things right in the world now? Why does AB keep doing things I don't understand or agree with and making me upset? I have a 5 second view into his 24 hour day and I don't like what I saw. The media keeps talking about it so it must be important.

AB is responsible for how I feel, not me.....I am not the problem AB is. My thinking is correct and his is invalid.

Why is he doing this to me?

[86WARD]

No more ping pong!

https://d2gg9evh47fn9z.cloudfront.net/800px_COLOURBOX23817923.jpg

:chuckle:

Post of the season!!

[Crow-Magnon]

All I gotta say is that I’ve seen Tomlin’s Steelers make many a halftime adjustment against the Ravens often to my dismay. I do think the Steelers often play down to a perceived inferior opponent, whereas said inferior opponent often brings their A game.

[pczach]

Losing a Super Bowl repeat after coming off a Super Bowl Championship season. Seven AFC Title game appearances in a row? Man, those Patriots don't know what they're doing and the Steelers are the bestest organization ever with the bestest Quarterback ever that will take them to the top.

3-4 Postseason record since 2014? 38 points to Blake Bortles and lose at home? Don't make any changes and keep the Defensive Coordinator who is running the absolute biggest shitshow of a defense in Steelers recent history? Get that nonsense out of here. The Steelers know whats up.

It's that level of unfounded arrogance that unfortuately permeates through the fanbase as well as the team.



Arrogance is not knowing a damn thing about football, but lecturing everyone here on the performances of the entire organization. You have been saying Big Ben is basically dog shit. That alone shows that you don't have the slightest clue of how to evaluate talent.

You cannot break down anything that is going on within the lines of the field from an X's and O's standpoint. We're all supposed to just take your word for it because you really, really mean it? That's not good enough.

You are acting like a child throwing a tantrum over things you can't control. You aren't making much sense to anyone but your new friend anal cyst with your rants about Ben being a shitty quarterback.

The amazing thing is that there are many of us that have concerns about this team and about Tomlin. We just won't let you frame the debate with your incessant bullshit and false claims that you keep screaming louder and louder into your keyboard...….and some of us even understand the game on levels that you don't......imagine that.

We need to find out more. We need to know who's in control of the defense. We need to see what transpires on the field, and try to see what changes are being made from a schematic and performance perspective. Standing up and screaming and waving our fists while demanding Tomlin be publicly castrated, and Butler is burned at the stake.

I'd like to know what is actually going on before I pass final judgment on assigning blame, and try to see what needs to be done. And I have no power whatsoever. I am just trying to be fair and informed as if I was making the decision.

You are making demands and you can't answer a single question definitively like who is designing the defense? Who is making adjustments to scheme? Who is developing personnel packages and deciding who plays in them? How much input does Tomlin have in the game day defensive calls? Etc...etc...


Do you know the answers to any of those questions?

The answer is no because none of us knows anything right now. When we do know.....then we can react with an informed opinion instead of screaming into the wind.

[DesertSteel]

Side by side comparisons of teams seems to show they do not.

Notice I used the word perception. Your side by side chart does nothing to alter perception. Nothing.

Secondly, drama is just as much about the ensuing effect as it is the actual acts. Your chart will just show the acts committed and nothing else. Th media smells blood in the Steelers tank right now. Every misdeed, tirade, stupid tweet, holdout, etc. is magnified. To keep doing stupid and selfish things in those conditions make everything more dramatic. Thus there is more drama with the Steelers. Do you not teach your students about the consequences of their decisions? The consequences are part of the drama and the Steelers organization and players are eyeball high in this garbage. A side by side ain't gonna change that bro.

- - - Updated - - -


Agreed, but that's not the assertion that was made that that post was in response to.

And I wonder what folks would say if Roethlisberger began dragging a "body coach" with virtually zero professional credentials and who also didn't work for the team around team facilities that Tomlin and/or ARII disapproved of?
BR7 for the win!!

[Mojouw]

Notice I used the word perception. Your side by side chart does nothing to alter perception. Nothing.

Secondly, drama is just as much about the ensuing effect as it is the actual acts. Your chart will just show the acts committed and nothing else. Th media smells blood in the Steelers tank right now. Every misdeed, tirade, stupid tweet, holdout, etc. is magnified. To keep doing stupid and selfish things in those conditions make everything more dramatic. Thus there is more drama with the Steelers. Do you not teach your students about the consequences of their decisions? The consequences are part of the drama and the Steelers organization and players are eyeball high in this garbage. A side by side ain't gonna change that bro.

- - - Updated - - -


BR7 for the win!!

Honestly I can't really figure out what you mean. It seems you are saying that drama is a product of people's perception and that perception is often wrong. Then the drama is intensified by the media and players feed into it. So a maybe not real thing is shouted from the rooftops by some bloggers and Twitters and now actual people doing actual jobs in the NFL should do something?

And what are the consequences? Like some people think less of AB than they did 36 hours ago?

[DesertSteel]

Honestly I can't really figure out what you mean. It seems you are saying that drama is a product of people's perception and that perception is often wrong. Then the drama is intensified by the media and players feed into it. So a maybe not real thing is shouted from the rooftops by some bloggers and Twitters and now actual people doing actual jobs in the NFL should do something?

And what are the consequences? Like some people think less of AB than they did 36 hours ago?
If I have 50 twitter followers and make an inflammatory post is it more/less/equally dramatic if I have 2 million followers? Your answer seems to be the same.

If if a man cheats on his girlfriend with no on watching, is it more/less/equally dramatic if he does so with the paparazzi taking pictures? Again, your answer seems to be the same.

Right now, the spotlight is on the Steelers. AB, above all others knows that. What does he do? Threaten to beat up a reporter, tweet about being traded and then plays hooky. Followed up by Tomlin saying he's earned the right to be where he is.

Much of of what we do in life is measured by the fish bowl we live in. I'm gathering that you don't much buy into anything I'm saying. Your analytical mind doesn't work that way. But the perception that this is a circus is gaining momentum. As a business owner, this can't make the Rooney's happy.

[GBMelBlount]

Good lord. I give up. Every time something is posted in black and white to refute something, the goalposts get moved.

...and it took you how many years of running a steelers board to figure this out? :party:

[Mojouw]

If I have 50 twitter followers and make an inflammatory post is it more/less/equally dramatic if I have 2 million followers? Your answer seems to be the same.

If if a man cheats on his girlfriend with no on watching, is it more/less/equally dramatic if he does so with the paparazzi taking pictures? Again, your answer seems to be the same.

Right now, the spotlight is on the Steelers. AB, above all others knows that. What does he do? Threaten to beat up a reporter, tweet about being traded and then plays hooky. Followed up by Tomlin saying he's earned the right to be where he is.

Much of of what we do in life is measured by the fish bowl we live in. I'm gathering that you don't much buy into anything I'm saying. Your analytical mind doesn't work that way. But the perception that this is a circus is gaining momentum. As a business owner, this can't make the Rooney's happy.

I mean those are all the same. None of them have very much to do with winning football games. Most of it is nonsense ginned up by commentators so they have something to comment on.

Everyone is assuming it must be bad that AB was away today because Tomlin addressed it. Well he was asked and then answered in a single sentence that was essentially "mind your business idiots" but polite like. Then it hit the echo chamber of the internet and TWO sentences became 2 dozen totally speculative stories.

Now I'm supposed to buy this is somehow important and somehow impacts wins and loses? How? Last I checked AB wasn't wearing a headset dialing up crappy coverages.

But because people react strongly and emotionally to these types of stories we've allowed ourselves to be convinced they're important. Just because it makes you feel the feelings doesn't mean it matters.

I mean I think all this stuff is beyond moronic and these guys need to learn how to shut up. But it also appears to have nothing to do with Sundays.


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[teegre]

Remember when Aaron Hernandez murdered that guy?

[Mojouw]

Remember when Aaron Hernandez murdered that guy?

Wasn't that after Rae Carruth took a hit out on his wife?

[43Hitman]

All I gotta say is that I’ve seen Tomlin’s Steelers make many a halftime adjustment against the Ravens often to my dismay. I do think the Steelers often play down to a perceived inferior opponent, whereas said inferior opponent often brings their A game.


You better be careful being the voice of reason around here, it'll bring out the mob.:mob:



:chuckle:


Seriously though, thanks for your insights Crow, they are much appreciated. A little levity is always nice. :drink:

[teegre]

Wasn't that after Rae Carruth took a hit out on his wife?

Yeah... but, that was in the NFC.

[GBMelBlount]

I feel bad for Cool shades, Ben, AB, Butler, and even shitstick Bell.

We are so quick to judge. However, at the end of the day, we are all flawed people, doing the best we can.

That being said, I thoroughly enjoy the posts, banter and arguments that we have as friends.

[teegre]

I feel bad for Cool shades, Ben, AB, Butler, and even shitstick Bell.

They are all doing the best they can, like every one of us.

We are so quick to be opinionated and judgemental (which is admittedly what I often come here to be), but at the end of the day, they are flawed people like you and I, trying to find their way, on and off the field.

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[GBMelBlount]

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[teegre]

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[GBMelBlount]

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[Renegade]

All I gotta say is that I’ve seen Tomlin’s Steelers make many a halftime adjustment against the Ravens often to my dismay. I do think the Steelers often play down to a perceived inferior opponent, whereas said inferior opponent often brings their A game.
Amen.

[DesertSteel]

Yeah... but, that was in the NFC.
Exactly.

[DesertSteel]

I believe, contrary to some’s beliefs, that professional athletes can be distracted, motivated, demotivated, selfish and many other conditions that impact outcomes of games. Anything that lessens focus fosters a competitive disadvantage. A culture that enables these conditions can contribute to a losing team.

[EzraTank]

Sure it was. :rolleyes:



Yep. Which they lost. If you're not first, you're last.

LOL. So you're going to say the Patriots winning two out of the last four Superbowls and getting to three of them proves they are just a F'd up as the Steelers because some sports writers say they "think" Brady and Belechick aren't getting along.

Please.

I don't care what the issues were with Ben and Todd Haley. Their offense was incredible last year and hung 42 points on a very very good Jags defense (but somehow still lost @ home). If anything Tomlin and ownership should have told Ben to suck it up and deal with Haley he's your coach. But nope unlike New England they coddle Ben and keep the Defensive Coordinator that is f'n clueless.

The glaring difference between these organizations is amazing. Could you imagine giving Belechick the talent the Steelers have had since Cowher left?

[lipps83]

I believe, contrary to some’s beliefs, that professional athletes can be distracted, motivated, demotivated, selfish and many other conditions that impact outcomes of games. Anything that lessens focus fosters a competitive disadvantage. A culture that enables these conditions can contribute to a losing team.

You are absolutely right. The problem is not on them then, but rather on us to recognize that they are human beings first and football players second. The same things that drive (motivate/demotivate) you at your own job drive them as well. The only difference between you and them is what your 'job' is.

It is important to be able to forgive, but the idea of forgiveness is sometimes lost in our own frustrations and we forget that they are human beings too, just like us. We see them on the big screen being made larger than life by the media and other sources, so in a way they are larger than life in our imagination, but not in reality.

They need forgiveness and understanding at times too, just like everybody else does.

[Mojouw]

LOL. So you're going to say the Patriots winning two out of the last four Superbowls and getting to three of them proves they are just a F'd up as the Steelers because some sports writers say they "think" Brady and Belechick aren't getting along.

Please.

This kinda proves the point some are trying to make around here. Most folks that are foaming at the mouth about drama and culture really couldn't give a crap about either. They are just ticked off the team is losing. And that is fine. Folks can react however they want. But to frame it like your anger has provided you clarity to stumble on some big football secret recipe is just silly.

Pats are as dramatic or more so than the Steelers. Difference is they are experience a level of success that is higher. So no one cares. Steelers are losing games and people get emotional. Then they lash out and call it "analysis".

Nothing wrong with any of that, but just be honest about it. You really don't care what happens as long as the team wins. When they don't win -- suddenly you care.

[EzraTank]

This kinda proves the point some are trying to make around here. Most folks that are foaming at the mouth about drama and culture really couldn't give a crap about either. They are just ticked off the team is losing. And that is fine. Folks can react however they want. But to frame it like your anger has provided you clarity to stumble on some big football secret recipe is just silly.

Pats are as dramatic or more so than the Steelers. Difference is they are experience a level of success that is higher. So no one cares. Steelers are losing games and people get emotional. Then they lash out and call it "analysis".

Nothing wrong with any of that, but just be honest about it. You really don't care what happens as long as the team wins. When they don't win -- suddenly you care.

I'll agree to a degree about your last point, but let's also be honest, if the amount of BS that's happening here was or is really happening in NE they wouldn't be winning which is why I think it's not true.

I'll say what I said yesterday, what's the last thing a Pats player tweeted or posted to social media? I can't remember either because they DO NOT DO IT. Why don't they do it? Because they know they will be shown the door or bench in heartbeat no matter who they are (just ask Malcolm Butler).

[Mojouw]

I'll agree to a degree about your last point, but let's also be honest, if the amount of BS that's happening here was or is really happening in NE they wouldn't be winning which is why I think it's not true.

I'll say what I said yesterday, what's the last thing a Pats player tweeted or posted to social media? I can't remember either because they DO NOT DO IT. Why don't they do it? Because they know they will be shown the door or bench in heartbeat no matter who they are (just ask Malcolm Butler).

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2796498-report-tom-brady-would-divorce-bill-belichick-if-he-could?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=nfl

Tell me again, about the lack do drama in NE?

Or when they thanked a racist on Twitter -- http://www.tmz.com/2014/11/14/new-england-patriots-apologize-for-racist-auto-tweet-our-bad/

Not players specifically, but this seems more than a bit dramatic -- https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2018/02/05/they-gave-up-on-me-patriots-malcolm-butler-laments-surprise-super-bowl-benching/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.97f52d76e45c

What about when Welker went after Rex Ryan's foot fetish in an interview? Surely that is dramatic bulletin board material?

And to be clear, Pats players do Tweet, here is one bitching about the recent SB -- https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/one-new-england-patriots-player-still-isnt-over-corey-clements-controversial-super-bowl-touchdown-catch

And here is a whole newspaper article (remember those?) about the Pats drama and controversy this off-season -- https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patriots/2018/06/08/patriots-have-been-making-headlines-for-all-wrong-reasons/ljBFLCrM8DTJThxPfpaJ8M/story.html

Bottom line - if the team wins no one cares. If the team loses, then all this stuff that has always been happening, suddenly matters. Why? Because fans are lunatic rage machines when our team loses.

[DesertSteel]

This kinda proves the point some are trying to make around here. Most folks that are foaming at the mouth about drama and culture really couldn't give a crap about either. They are just ticked off the team is losing. And that is fine. Folks can react however they want. But to frame it like your anger has provided you clarity to stumble on some big football secret recipe is just silly.

Pats are as dramatic or more so than the Steelers. Difference is they are experience a level of success that is higher. So no one cares. Steelers are losing games and people get emotional. Then they lash out and call it "analysis".

Nothing wrong with any of that, but just be honest about it. You really don't care what happens as long as the team wins. When they don't win -- suddenly you care.
Just like in everyday life with us normal people, some folks thrive with drama while others implode with the same level of drama. Why do you think these variances don't exist with professional athletes?

[Mojouw]

Just like in everyday life with us normal people, some folks thrive with drama while others implode with the same level of drama. Why do you think these variances don't exist with professional athletes?

I've never said that. I have never denied the existence of drama for the Steelers, any other NFL team, etc. I simply reject the hypothesis that it is any more or less for this team or that team.

As I have repeatedly said, all workplaces have drama. The Steelers are workplace, therefore they have drama.

I honestly do not know how to say my point any simpler or clearer.

[BlackAndGold]

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[DesertSteel]

I've never said that. I have never denied the existence of drama for the Steelers, any other NFL team, etc. I simply reject the hypothesis that it is any more or less for this team or that team.

As I have repeatedly said, all workplaces have drama. The Steelers are workplace, therefore they have drama.

I honestly do not know how to say my point any simpler or clearer.
But your underlying point is that it has no effect on their performance on the field. And your basis is that other teams have the same drama and it doesn’t effect them adversely. My last point is that different people perform under the stress of drama differently. And what might not affect one person may cause another to lose focus. If this can happen to ordinary people it can happen to superstar athletes.

[Mojouw]

But your underlying point is that it has no effect on their performance on the field. And your basis is that other teams have the same drama and it doesn’t effect them adversely. My last point is that different people perform under the stress of drama differently. And what might not affect one person may cause another to lose focus. If this can happen to ordinary people it can happen to superstar athletes.


22-6-1 is the record in about the last 40 games. All of those but the Bears game they got beat because they were not the better team.


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[DesertSteel]

22-6-1 is the record in about the last 40 games. All of those but the Bears game they got beat because they were not the better team.


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A. 3-4 since 2011 is the only record I’m concerned with.
B. Things have escalated over the past 40 games. Drama/stress is not linear. Drama has a tipping point.

[Mojouw]

Listen to the most recent Daves podcast on Steelers Depot. My thinking aligns with theirs. They say it better than I can.


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[DesertSteel]

Listen to the most recent Daves podcast on Steelers Depot. My thinking aligns with theirs. They say it better than I can.


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I’ll check it out.


I can concede that drama ordinarily has no effect on W/L’s if you can concede that it’s possible for there to be exceptions to the rule (regardless of whether this is one or not). After all, the might win the super bowl this year and I’ll say “bring on the drama!” :)

[Six Rings]

Hello all!

Before I get started on this, I just want to say that I am African American myself, so this has nothing to do with race. Tomlin has had some very good accomplishments to this organization. He has never had a losing season which is a great accomplishment as he enters his 12th season.

He took over an 8-8 Cowher team and led them to a 10-6 record in 2007 with a playoff appearance. He overworked that team, which caused injuries and an early playoff exit. He learned his lesson and made proper adjustments for a 12-4 2008 (tel:12-4 2008) Superbowl Season.

However, those were mostly players Cowher drafted, and besides Ben, they are all long gone. For those that don’t like the “Cowher’s Players” mantra, there is a huge difference here. Cowher created a culture that always had his teams under the radar. Although there was no social media, the media and reporters were what got player’s comments out back then.

Cowher always had his teams tight lipped. He tolerated no “I” over the team. He created a culture of discipline, hard work, fundementally sound, smart football. He instilled it in his players, and they did not cross the line.

What Tomlin has created is atrocious. Has he brought in some very talented players in his tenure? Sure he has! Has he had some very good success in the regular season? Sure he has! Now although Cowher has his warts as well, his teams didn’t beat themselves. Most of Cowher’s issues were based on not having a QB for the majority of his career.

The truth is the team takes on the personality of the coach. We can take last year as an example. You had Tomlin publicly looking ahead to New England. How do you think that played out in the Locker room? Mike Mitchell was one that talked about them. You had Bell tweet about a rematch with them the day before the Jags playoff game.

It’s an elitist attitude that has been created. It’s based on arrogance with a me first attitude. It’s no longer about hard work, respect for your opponents, fundementals and attention to detail. It’s one of the reasons his teams struggle against sub 500 teams.

Social media and other outlets play a huge factor in what ails this team as well.
He runs a loose locker room. Ben flies off at the mouth at times on his radio show. You had the Harrison disaster created on social media last year. I already mentioned Bell before last year’s Jags playoff game. He also gets into arguements with fans and guys like Skip Bayless. His penchant for weed doesn’t help either. Not only is he holding out this year, but also did last year. This is also a guy that has been blasting the organization with his contract demands in his rap music.


Did I mention AB’s post game facebook live distraction in the 2017 playoffs? He calls a Pittsburgh reporter a clown on twitter, threatens an espn reporter for his article, and now responds with bad taste of being traded about a fan’s remarks. We witnessed a sideline blowup yesterday and also last year.

Martavis Bryant made comments about Coates on social media last year, then later made trade demands on social media. This was the only guy that received discipline. It was probably because Bryant is only a fringe player but not a star. Now you have guys that put out their dirty laundry from the locker room.

Players such as Dupree, Pouncey and DeCastro commented on things that happened with Harrison last season. Now they are speaking to the media about their displeasures with Bell’s holdout. These are things that would not have been tolerated under Cowher. This type of activity is a reflection of what you see on the field.

They are totally dysfunctional. They are more focused on themselves and social media activity than they are on the details of their jobs, and how to carry themselves as a professional. Tomlin doesn’t address it because he stated it’s the times we live in now.

What you see on the field is sloppiness. No fundementals. Incredibly stupid, highly penalized, indisciplined and total combustion. Many of you can say what you want, but this used to be an organization that you could be proud of win or lose.

Now what we see is what used to be the Dallas Cowboys. The Steelers are this generation’s media circus. The Steelers have now become a weekly soap opera, and the laughingstock of the NFL.

Bumping an older post from 2018. I agree with 90% of this, but I think it's fair to say that Tomlin took over a star studded team of Bill Cowher players and comes that works under Bill and won his lone Superbowl under those terms, many years ago.

[Edman]

A few years later, is this guy wrong?

2018: 7-2-1 Start, only to collapse in the final weeks to 9-6-1 and out of the playoffs.
2019: 8-5, collapse to 8-8.
2020: 11-0 Start, best in franchise history, collapse to 12-4 and one and done in the playoffs again. The playoff game was a doozy.

Facing an undermanned team without its head coach, Opening offensive play is a bad snap That results in a touchdown. Giving up 28 points in the first quarter alone.

The Steelers Country Club exists. And too many veterans in that Locker Room are too big on themselves. Up to and including Ben and Pouncey.

[fansince'76]

A few years later, is this guy wrong?

Turns out I wasn't...



Uh, OK...

Report: Tom Brady, Bill Belichick, Robert Kraft drama sparks dysfunction with Patriots
(https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/patriots/2018/01/05/report-tom-brady-bill-belichick-robert-kraft-drama-sparks-dysfunction-patriots/1006630001/)

That was all BS put out by the media. And with all that supposedly happening what did they do last year? Oh go to yet another Superbowl.

[The Bark]

I've said this before, but Cowher's coaching staff was continuously raided by other teams in need of head coaches. That he remained competitive, for the most part, without a franchise QB is something in itself. Has a single coach or coordinator from the Tomlin era been coveted by other teams? I'm hard pressed to think of any, not to mention LeBeau got LeBoot (oops, he "retired," just like TP.)

[Six Rings]

A few years later, is this guy wrong?

2018: 7-2-1 Start, only to collapse in the final weeks to 9-6-1 and out of the playoffs.
2019: 8-5, collapse to 8-8.
2020: 11-0 Start, best in franchise history, collapse to 12-4 and one and done in the playoffs again. The playoff game was a doozy.

Facing an undermanned team without its head coach, Opening offensive play is a bad snap That results in a touchdown. Giving up 28 points in the first quarter alone.

The Steelers Country Club exists. And too many veterans in that Locker Room are too big on themselves. Up to and including Ben and Pouncey.

If Pouncey is starting next year, I'l be disappointed. Retire, please.

The pattern of collapse under Tomlin is very disturbing. Next year, we do not have a cake schedule. It's a hard schedule with 5 playoff teams alive in road games. Combined with no cap space and top free agents leaving, ouch

[dislocatedday]

I've said this before, but Cowher's coaching staff was continuously raided by other teams in need of head coaches. That he remained competitive, for the most part, without a franchise QB is something in itself. Has a single coach or coordinator from the Tomlin era been coveted by other teams? I'm hard pressed to think of any, not to mention LeBeau got LeBoot (oops, he "retired," just like TP.)

Arians found an OC position with the Colts after leaving the Steelers, which then lead to his HC opportunity, but you are right in that I do not recall any Tomlin era OCs being coveted or even interviewed for HC vacancies.

Keith Butler was supposed to be this wunderkind, and he was groomed as the replacement for LeBeau. I am not sure that he is a defensive genius though, as up until a couple years ago most fans were calling for his release. I think the sheer talent of some of the players, and Tomlin having some influence on defense, is covering up for his inadequacies. Terryl Austin, the secondary coach, seems to be a much better coach to me, although it obviously helped too that he finally got some decent players to work with in the secondary (Haden, Nelson, Minkah) so who knows.

[Steeldude]

Each year the Steelers lost a Cowher player it showed. The only one left is a used up BR.

The only player worth keeping on the team is Watt. The Steelers should take their entire team and all draft picks and then trade them for the first pick in order to draft Trevor Lawrence. Haha.

[Six Rings]

Each year the Steelers lost a Cowher player it showed. The only one left is a used up BR.

The only player worth keeping on the team is Watt. The Steelers should take their entire team and all draft picks and then trade them for the first pick in order to draft Trevor Lawrence. Haha.



Oh boy, this team needs Health Miller badly. You could say the same for Hines Ward, ANY back not named Conner, and every spot on the OL. But above and beyond that we need the next Bill Cowher, the next Bruce Arians and the next Dick Lebeau . But we have Tomlin, Fichtner and Butler. We also lost a great coach in Munchak. Clearly, leadership/coaching is part of the problem


Another collapse by Tomlin. He was 1-5 in his last six games, only saved from 0-6 by a brilliant comeback by Ben. Let that sink in for a moment.

Next year this team is in for it.

[Mojouw]

Are we not going to point out that those HC's raided from Cowher's staff pretty much all sucked? Chan Gailey, Dom Capers, Mularkey -- all total failures as HCs.

[Squeegee Thompson]

If Art II actually had a set of brass ones (which he does not), he'd allow Tomlin to gracefully "retire", just as they did with Cowher and Noll when their shelf-life had clearly expired. Both were Hall of Fame coaches, and Tomlin realistically belongs in that discussion as well once he's done. However, ya just gotta know when it's time for a regime change.

14 years is a long time in today's NFL, and was about the limit for Cowher as well. You don't fire the guy, you tell him on no uncertain terms to take the podium and "voluntarily retire". That way his legacy and reputation remain intact. It's the classy way, and the Steelers way.

Blow up most of the aging vets, including Ben unfortunately, get some cap space and draft picks, then create a new team culture with some fresh blood and a fiery new HC.

[Mojouw]

So last year the coaching was what? Mediocre? I seem to remember a HC that held the 2019 Steelers together with bubble gum and dreams. In 2020, the team was hamstrung by QB play (just in a different way) than it was in 2019. This isn't excuse making but my assessment of the reality. Now, of course, Fichtner contributes to the problem rather than helping, but Ben is diminished to the point that he can not run an offense all that well.

First Ravens game, the Ravens start stuffing the running game. Ben pivots to the 5 wide no huddle and salvages the game. Second Ravens game, they start frustrating the 5 wide stuff. WFT game - really shut down the short passing stuff. The losing starts. But, MojoUW, Ben passed for 500 yards last night, he is fine it was the dumb gameplan that screwed them! C'mon man! The Browns would have let me pass for 700 yards on them last night. They were up so big it didn't matter. Plus, congratulations, Ben can still complete passes against scrub CBs in a prevent defense - great!

There is not a culture problem - there is a not very good NFL offense problem.

[Mach1]

Out coached by a (interim) special teams coach.

[Fire Goodell]

coaching can't fix how far the o-line fell off and ben's decline, or injuries on defense. the SB window closed this season, time to rebuild

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

coaching can't fix how far the o-line fell off and ben's decline, or injuries on defense. the SB window closed this season, time to rebuild

I think it can. Sarrett was coaching an O line with what looked like walling off seams to run, not actually gaining yardage and aggressively run blocking. Fichtner created a soft offensive system the past few seasons that has created a soft Offense and a soft team. Both of them need to be replaced, not Tomlin. Tomlin needs to realize that and get a better O line coach and OC.

Does anybody realize that the Browns have 2 playcallers that are better than Fichtner. Both Kevin Stefanski and Alex Van Pelt are better OC's than Fichtner. The Steelers have the 5th best OC in the AFC North.

[Shoes]

I think it can. Sarrett was coaching an O line with what looked like walling off seams to run, not actually gaining yardage and aggressively run blocking. Fichtner created a soft offensive system the past few seasons that has created a soft Offense and a soft team. Both of them need to be replaced, not Tomlin. Tomlin needs to realize that and get a better O line coach and OC.

Does anybody realize that the Browns have 2 playcallers that are better than Fichtner. Both Kevin Stefanski and Alex Van Pelt are better OC's than Fichtner. The Steelers have the 5th best OC in the AFC North.


Yep plus they beat us with their HC at home along with a bunch of covid smitten players.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

[/B]

Yep plus they beat us with their HC at home along with a bunch of covid smitten players.

HC at home doesnt matter IMO. His playcalling is more important than his team motivation or clock management skills, etc. The fact that Alex Van Pelt may have arguably called a better game than Stefanski could have is a feather in the cap of having good offensive coaches. The Steelers did not. (does anybody else think running Derek Watt on short yardage dive for a second time was something that lost the element of surprise and should not have been called?).

I think Tomlin is too loyal to the guys that coach for him and doesnt realize their glaring faults. When people that work for you are jeopardizing your success, you have to move on from them and find better talent. Its not personal, just business.

[Steeler-in-west]

Tomlin needs to put a clamp on his players (like Juju) they’ve got to fear and respect him, juju’s behavior, like other players mouthing off before (AB, Tuitt, Ben even) tells me otherwise,

Also, his clock management, 2 point conversion decisions, 4th and 1 decisions, need improvement (or get an assistant to help) and his continuous cliches are getting old as well. Getting a good OC is only part of the solution, Tomlin needs to establish a better, more professional culture or move on.

[86WARD]

Out coached by a (interim) special teams coach.

Where exactly was he “out coached”?

[86WARD]

So last year the coaching was what? Mediocre? I seem to remember a HC that held the 2019 Steelers together with bubble gum and dreams. In 2020, the team was hamstrung by QB play (just in a different way) than it was in 2019. This isn't excuse making but my assessment of the reality. Now, of course, Fichtner contributes to the problem rather than helping, but Ben is diminished to the point that he can not run an offense all that well.

First Ravens game, the Ravens start stuffing the running game. Ben pivots to the 5 wide no huddle and salvages the game. Second Ravens game, they start frustrating the 5 wide stuff. WFT game - really shut down the short passing stuff. The losing starts. But, MojoUW, Ben passed for 500 yards last night, he is fine it was the dumb gameplan that screwed them! C'mon man! The Browns would have let me pass for 700 yards on them last night. They were up so big it didn't matter. Plus, congratulations, Ben can still complete passes against scrub CBs in a prevent defense - great!

There is not a culture problem - there is a not very good NFL offense problem.

Not to mention the job he’s done with an injured defense throughout the season. He put those players in a position (most of the time) to succeed.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Where exactly was he “out coached”?

I think the ST coach made Pouncey snap the ball over Ben's head and then made Ben throw inaccurate passes into areas where Browns defenders were.

Could have given Jimmy Haslam the headset on the sidelines and and Browns still win that one.

[Mojouw]

HC at home doesnt matter IMO. His playcalling is more important than his team motivation or clock management skills, etc. The fact that Alex Van Pelt may have arguably called a better game than Stefanski could have is a feather in the cap of having good offensive coaches. The Steelers did not. (does anybody else think running Derek Watt on short yardage dive for a second time was something that lost the element of surprise and should not have been called?).

I think Tomlin is too loyal to the guys that coach for him and doesnt realize their glaring faults. When people that work for you are jeopardizing your success, you have to move on from them and find better talent. Its not personal, just business.


Not to mention the job he’s done with an injured defense throughout the season. He put those players in a position (most of the time) to succeed.

I think these two bits are the key, at least for me. He "saved" on of his guys that he is doggedly loyal to in Butler through bringing in Austin and getting better players. I think he tried to do the same thing with Canada and some recent draft picks. It hasn't worked as well as the defensive shifts did.

Fichtner (and by extension Tomlin) is not making the players he does have any better. I still believe a great % of that is on Ben R, but at this point -- why not change?

[st33lersguy]

But I thought the culture was supposed to improve with AB and Le'Veon gone

[Fire Goodell]

But I thought the culture was supposed to improve with AB and Le'Veon gone

It looked like they were turning the corner, but Ebron and Juju talking shit while they were in a tailspin didn't sit well with me at all.