When does a Head Coach get Blame/Credit?

[DesertSteel]

General question: when does a HC get blame or credit? Some blame Tomlin for the Browns tie, but he wasn’t the one turning the ball over. On the other hand, would we give him credit if the players executed? On those same grounds, wouldn’t we say it was all the players and their performance? I realize we can talk about game plan, but all plans look good when the players perform well.

Of course, decisions at crunch time play a part in blame/credit (red flags, timeouts, substitutions, etc.). But how do you assign blame or credit to a HC?

[polamalubeast]

I do not blame Tomlin for the tie game against the Browns ... This one is on Ben ...

But when you're a defensive coach and you lose 45-42 against a defensive team ... ouch!

For the credit,an example .... Doug Peterson last year ... What a job he did with so many injuries and his playcalling and gameplan was amazing in the super bowl (not just the trick play at the end of the first half).

[DesertSteel]

Seriously? Yet another fire Tomlin thread.
Seriously? No one went there but YOU.

[Mojouw]

Head Coaches Credit For:
Teams that don't quit regardless of score or mounting injuries.
Gameplans/approaches that make sense given the strengths and weakness of a team
Devising an overall plan for the franchise and sticking to it. This is the "I need these types of players - now lets go get them" thing.
Providing a structure where each coach, personnel person, and player understands their role and responsibility.
Taking responsibility for all failures (even when not warranted) and distributing the credit for all success (again even if not warranted). Any good "boss" should do this. Most don't.


Head Coach Blame For:
Cycling through plans in a seemingly random manner -- "We can't start our rookie QB, he isn't ready. After one week, he is totally ready!"
Switching schemes and therefore roster priorities each off-season. "We're a man coverage team!" "We run the ball." "No, wait we play zone defense and pass the ball to our TEs".
Teams that don't play hard the whole game. I don't mean the stuff talked about here. I mean teams that get down 2 scores and the body language is all slumped over on the bench with towels over their heads and no one is talking about how to fix it. I've seen Tomlin led teams struggle, but never do this.
Seeing failure or struggles and doing nothing to correct it. No change in line-up or scheme or tactics to correct a deficit. Like when Garrett let his back-up LT get ripped for 6 sacks a season or so ago and just kept running the kid out there with no help.

Dunno. That's just my initial reaction.

[st33lersguy]

I think in a team sport such as football, it's up to the coaching to implement the proper system and get the team functioning as one cohesive unit. Why is some teams that look good on paper crash and burn while Bellichick takes spare parts every year and turns the Patriots into consistent winners? Therefore I think the coaching needs to be given a fair portion of credit and blame. Bad coaching can cause a talented team to underachieve, meanwhile, a less talented team can overachieve with coaching. I think Tomlin needs to be given his proper credit for the Super Bowl 43 win (In the past I have tried to minimize his role in that and I was wrong), he got the team functioning as one to help win and helped spawn the Harrison turn by having players practice blocking after an INT. As for last year, he definitely needs blame, a team with 10 pro bowlers on the roster did not go as far as they should have, and that is on Tomlin and the rest of the coaches

[Fire Goodell]

head coach gets no credit but all the blame, that's just how it goes :chuckle:

[Moose]

I agree st33lersguy with ya'. I think the coach(es) get both, credit and blame. First of all, you have to have game plan and preparedness for EVERY game and team you play- coaches to instruct and players to perform, then you need the right player to institute the job, which are the fault of coaches....right blocker, punt returner, cornerback coverage, etc.. Game plan definitely on the coaches. Lack of running game against a bad run blocking team...coaches plays calling. To me the game is on both shoulders...of course there will be times when you have the right player in the spot-but that player has a bad game and can't do what is called for....then that's on the coaches to pull the player and put in another to do whatever to give you the best chance to win ( like changing pitchers, designator hitter, pinch runner, etc...). So, In my opinion, the coaches get BOTH, credit for some things in game and blame for some things in a game. If the team seems to get into a rut, then you need the coaches to get into some asses for the motivation installation. Same as recognizing when a celebration penalty on a TD or a tackle is hurtful during a close game, then pulling that player aside for some ass chewing. Just my opinion.

[stillers4me]

1040999117848236037

[DesertSteel]

Is managing noise even part of the HC's job description? Certainly, it is for college HC's, but what about the NFL?

[Craic]

Head coaches, IMO, should get blamed for anything until there's a consistent pattern over two or three years that can be traced to him. The same is true for credit except in those areas, both good and bad, where it is obviously the coaches fault, such as choosing to bench a player or making a decision to go for it or to punt. IMO, he shouldn't get blamed for anything that happens on the field in one game outside of that. I want to see patterns before I claim it's coaching issue. So, for instance, we've seen problems with communication on defense. We know in the first half of Tomlin's time here there weren't any problems. We also know Lebeau was here and we had several veterans. In the second half, those problems have crept up. Lebeau has left, the veterans are gone, so there's an issue that is Tomlin's to address along with his new defensive coordinator. With the continuing changes at personal and the injury of the defensive playcaller last year, there are mitigating circumstances. However, if it continues much longer, then it begins to be Tomlin's fault because ultimately, he has to take the reigns and fix it. But, he can't undercut his DC or his DC will lose credibility in the locker room, and that is how you lose a football team. That is why I give a HC a couple of years to work through things, because unless the entire system is broken from top to bottom, the last thing you want is a head coach making massive changes to the way an organization runs, and anytime he steps in and corrects a DC, that's exactly what happens.

The other side of that is asking if a team had the right game plan for their personnel and the defensed against whom they were playing. Both of those elements have to be asked as well. For instance, we all wanted to see man coverage against the Patriots*, but every time they shifted into it, they got absolutely burned because they didn't have the personnel at the time. So, they've gone out in the last couple of drafts and drafted the right guys to play man coverage when they have to. When we play the Pats* this year, we'll see whether the HC has done right by the team.

Finally, I think the credit/blame comes from the overall team record during his tenor. One of the reasons I hold Tomlin in such high regard is because he is the first coach I've seen that has held a team at or above .500 during a rebuilding cycle without cheating (Ahem, Pats*).

[cold-hard-steel]

Is managing noise even part of the HC's job description? Certainly, it is for college HC's, but what about the NFL?

According to "ancient astronaut theorists" the answer is yes.

[Craic]

Is managing noise even part of the HC's job description? Certainly, it is for college HC's, but what about the NFL?

As for managing the noise, the answer to that question is yes, and no. In one respect, he is responsible for managing the noise that surrounds the locker room; is this player upset, is that player causing problems on the field or in the locker room, and so on. In the other respect, he isn't responsible for managing players like college HCs because these are adult men. They are at a full-time job and once they clock out, they are free to do almost anything they want just like anyone else at a full-time position. So, would your manager have the responsibility of monitoring your twitter or Snapchat or Facebook accounts? No. Is he responsible for your contract dispute with HR? No. He is only responsible for what goes on at the office and at any office-sponsored events. The same is true of a head coach.

[Born2Steel]

When a coach has a winning record in the NFL after 10 years he gets credit for being a good coach. When fans think he should have won more he gets the blame. Pretty simple really.

[DesertSteel]

I think that Tomlin is a top 5 coach. What area do you think he has improved the most as a HC and where does he still need to improve? Unlike Hawkman's opinion about this being another Fire Tomlin thread, I'd like to think we can objectively discuss the pros/cons of his tenure and give him the credit he's earned, while also realizing there's still some work to be done.

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AREAS TO IMPROVE: I think his coaching staff at times has been suspect - holding on too long to a coach who's not working out. Butler is getting there... and some position coaches have already burnt that bridge. I'd like to see Butler moved this year if the D doesn't produce.

[Born2Steel]

I think that Tomlin is a top 5 coach. What area do you think he has improved the most as a HC and where does he still need to improve? Unlike Hawkman's opinion about this being another Fire Tomlin thread, I'd like to think we can objectively discuss the pros/cons of his tenure and give him the credit he's earned, while also realizing there's still some work to be done.

- - - Updated - - -

AREAS TO IMPROVE: I think his coaching staff at times has been suspect - holding on too long to a coach who's not working out. Butler is getting there... and some position coaches have already burnt that bridge. I'd like to see Butler moved this year if the D doesn't produce.

I disagree with you on Butler. Last season was when he lost his LBs. This year we are trying something new with the defense. The staples on this defense are still above par in talent and execution. Every time you change coordinators you start over to an extent.

I have no idea how to tell Tomlin what he needs to work on. Do you want a Bellichick/Saban type personality here? I would rather have the coach that celebrates with his players. That may just be me though.

[86WARD]

When half the players on Defense are running one play and the other half is running another play and the miscommunication continues throughout the season, that falls on the Coordinator and Coach.

When a Special Teams unit commits the same penalties week in and week out and does not improve year after year in certain aspects of the game, that falls on the Coordinator and Coach.

[86WARD]

I have no idea how to tell Tomlin what he needs to work on. Do you want a Bellichick/Saban type personality here? I would rather have the coach that celebrates with his players. That may just be me though.

Tomlin is a good Coach. He makes the hard decisions, he makes some ballsy ones. I like that in a Coach. He also makes some questionable and absent minded decisions as well but all coaches do that. The thing that really bugs me about Tomlin is his lack of in game discipline and His stubbornness in regards To personnel use...mainly with kick and punt returners.

[DesertSteel]

I disagree with you on Butler. Last season was when he lost his LBs. This year we are trying something new with the defense. The staples on this defense are still above par in talent and execution. Every time you change coordinators you start over to an extent.

I have no idea how to tell Tomlin what he needs to work on. Do you want a Bellichick/Saban type personality here? I would rather have the coach that celebrates with his players. That may just be me though.
I really don’t think it matters - players coach or dictator type. Both have won and both can be taken to extreme.

[polamalubeast]

I disagree with you on Butler. Last season was when he lost his LBs. This year we are trying something new with the defense. The staples on this defense are still above par in talent and execution. Every time you change coordinators you start over to an extent.

I have no idea how to tell Tomlin what he needs to work on. Do you want a Bellichick/Saban type personality here? I would rather have the coach that celebrates with his players. That may just be me though.

The problem with Butler is that our defense was dysfunctional last year

I've never seen a defense make so much mistake because of a lack of communication or something like that...Kizer and Hundley had big games against us because of that ...No excuses for that

And we must not be afraid of change .... I mean, the Broncos won the super bowl in 2015 in the first year of Wade Phillips as DC and their defense won the super bowl by themselves.

It's just with the steelers, it takes too much time to develop a unit under Tomlin...It was the O-line for the first half of Tomlin's tenure, now it's the defense,especially the secondary.

It took too long for Tomlin to understand that the zone is no longer working in the NFL ....

[43Hitman]

The problem with Butler is that our defense was dysfunctional last year

I've never seen a defense make so much mistake because of a lack of communication or something like that...Kizer and Hundley had big games against us because of that ...No excuses for that

And we must not be afraid of change .... I mean, the Broncos won the super bowl in 2015 in the first year of Wade Phillips as DC and their defense won the super bowl by themselves.

It's just with the steelers, it takes too much time to develop a unit under Tomlin...It was the O-line for the first half of Tomlin's tenure, now it's the defense,especially the secondary.

It took too long for Tomlin to understand that the zone is no longer working in the NFL ....

One thing I think you're forgetting here is that Tomlin rebuilt the o-line and defense with out ever having a losing season. Is there another coach that has done that?

[polamalubeast]

One thing I think you're forgetting here is that Tomlin rebuilt the o-line and defense with out ever having a losing season. Is there another coach that has done that?

The steelers have been the majority of the time, one of the most talented teams in the NFL during its tenure except for 2-3 seasons....Kevin Colbert and Ben Roethlisberger deserve more of the credit for that

To not have a losing season .... if the steelers finish 8-7-1 this year, would that be a successful season?

[Steeldude]

It seems to me that if the Steelers lose fans say it is the fault of the players. If the Steelers win they say it's because of Tomlin. In most cases it's the fault of both sides.

[43Hitman]

The steelers have been the majority of the time, one of the most talented teams in the NFL during its tenure except for 2-3 seasons....Kevin Colbert and Ben Roethlisberger deserve more of the credit for that

To not have a losing season .... if the steelers finish 8-7-1 this year, would that be a successful season?

You can't equate a successful season with a non losing season. Please don't move the goal posts on me.

[polamalubeast]

You can't equate a successful season with a non losing season. Please don't move the goal posts on me.

I am sorry

But it's just that the steelers have never been one of the less talented teams(bottom 10) in the league under Tomlin with the exception maybe of 2013.

[teegre]

To not have a losing season .... if the steelers finish 8-7-1 this year, would that be a successful season?

This season: no

2012 & 2013 (when those back-loaded contracts came due and the roster was purged): absolutely

[polamalubeast]

This season: no

2012 & 2013 (when those back-loaded contracts came due and the roster was purged): absolutely

Not for me....During 15 games (final 7 games in 2012 and first 8 games in 2013) the steelers were 4-11.

Of course, we finished the season at 6-2 in 2013, but it was too late, even if we almost made the playoffs by accident since no team wanted to be in the final 6 seed that year !!!!

[Craic]

Not for me....During 15 games (final 7 games in 2012 and first 8 games in 2013) the steelers were 4-11.

Of course, we finished the season at 6-2 in 2013, but it was too late, even if we almost made the playoffs by accident since no team wanted to be in the final 6 seed that year !!!!

And there is the problem right there. The issue isn't whether a coach is good nor not. The issue is perspective and which way our preconceived ideas take us when looking at the evidence (That's not a dig at you, PB. It's the human plight when assessing). When i see those 15 games, what I see is a team that was too old in 2013 and changes needed to happen, so they started happening. Adjustments were made and more changes happened, and all of that occurred within the first eight games of the season, which allowed this team to salvage the season and be playing meaningful football on the last day of the regular season. Personally, I see that as a great bit of coaching. In short, he completely turned around a team that was headed into the gutter due to age and overextended contracts within a single year. I find that impressive. And, he has done it without any high round draft picks in his entire tenure here. That's something neither of his two predecessors can say.

[pczach]

This season: no

2012 & 2013 (when those back-loaded contracts came due and the roster was purged): absolutely



People that don't think Tomlin did a great job of coaching while the entire roster was turned over and never had a losing season are fooling themselves.

I ask anyone who believes that what he did is nothing special to name the other coaches in the NFL that have pulled it off.

I know the GM acquires the talent, but getting that many new pieces to mesh, and squeezing every ounce out of a roster that was very light on talent is not something that any NFL coach can do. How many times do we see bad things happen to a franchise, and the team implodes. Tomlin has never allowed that to happen with this team. He gets teams to fight hard when circumstances are the most difficult. His teams rally and play well when devastating injuries occur, and it happens consistently.

When I hear the love for Tom Coughlin, I always think about all those losing seasons with basically the same rosters that he won Super Bowls with. Sorry, Tomlin consistently gets more out of his teams than Coughlin ever did. If Coughlin ever rolled out multiple 6-10 seasons with this roster, the fanbase would be collectively breathing into paper bags.

[polamalubeast]

The last 3 years of Coughlin was not the same roster that the years the giants won the super bowl....The bad drafts of Jerry Reese has been a killer for the giants in the last few years.Coughlin also had a year when Eli had a QB rating of 69.4 with 27 interceptions!

Look, Tomlin is a good coach, it's just that I do not consider him a great one for now .... His 2 best coaching jobs were in 2010 and 2015.

[pczach]

The last 3 years of Coughlin was not the same roster that the years the giants won the super bowl....The bad drafts of Jerry Reese has been a killer for the giants in the last few years.Coughlin also had a year when Eli had a QB rating of 69.4 with 27 interceptions!

Look, Tomlin is a good coach, it's just that I do not consider him a great one for now .... His 2 best coaching jobs were in 2010 and 2015.




I just don't consider Coughlin to be a great coach. He had waaaaaay too many bad seasons for me to consider him a great coach. You just can't have that many horrible seasons and be considered great. If he wasn't coaching in a pathetic conference, his teams may not have even made the playoffs the years he won the Super Bowl.

Here's his coaching career: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CougTo0.htm

He had a ton of talent on most of those rosters after his first season with the Giants, and his teams severely underachieved most years. If you want to dismiss the last three years, I get it....but it's still on him. Tomlin wouldn't get that pass if he went 19-29 over a three season stretch if Pee Wee Herman was the GM. :chuckle:



As for Tomlin, you are entitled to think that, but rebuilding a roster and not having a losing season is unheard of in the NFL.

I am not saying he is Vince Lombardi. He has much more to do and he has some things he needs to improve on, but he is a very good coach in my opinion.

What he does from here in the coming years will define him in the minds of most people. If he never wins another championship, he may not be considered a great coach. If he wins another Super Bowl, I don't see how anyone can say he isn't a great coach with his won/loss record and his longevity.


I'm hoping he wins a few more.

[Born2Steel]

Coughlin wasted Eli. That makes him a bad coach in my book. He won 2 SBs so he's also a great coach. Hmmm some good some bad. Sounds like a football coach.

[Mojouw]

Tom Coughlin is a terrible coach. Most over rated SB winning coach, non Barry Switzer division.

As to TOmlin, I find it funny that every other fan base and most pundits regard Tomlin as a very good to excellent coach and would gladly have him walking their sidelines. Yet STeelers fans seem in a hurry to get rid of him.

The thing that gets lost in all this is how well Tomlin manages people. Read about how Matt Patricia has already lost the Deteroit Lions one week into his first season. He alienated veterans and none of the players are buying into his system. In contrast, Tomlin walked into a veteran locker-from and seized control while getting the guys to buy into his system. Was it seamless, no but one of the better transitions from a long-time popular coach to a new guy.

I mean the coach of this team could’ve been Mularkey, WHisenhunt, or Grimm. We now know those would’ve been really poor choices.

[polamalubeast]

Tom Coughlin is a terrible coach. Most over rated SB winning coach, non Barry Switzer division.

As to TOmlin, I find it funny that every other fan base and most pundits regard Tomlin as a very good to excellent coach and would gladly have him walking their sidelines. Yet STeelers fans seem in a hurry to get rid of him.

The thing that gets lost in all this is how well Tomlin manages people. Read about how Matt Patricia has already lost the Deteroit Lions one week into his first season. He alienated veterans and none of the players are buying into his system. In contrast, Tomlin walked into a veteran locker-from and seized control while getting the guys to buy into his system. Was it seamless, no but one of the better transitions from a long-time popular coach to a new guy.

I mean the coach of this team could’ve been Mularkey, WHisenhunt, or Grimm. We now know those would’ve been really poor choices.


Or Doug Peterson


Yes, Tomlin has his strengths, but also his weaknesses .... like the defense has often been dysfunctional since Dick Lebeau left.2014, our defense was bad, but at least they were not dysfunctional.

If Coughlin is a horrible coach, I do not know what to say .... I mean, Coughlin has so many upset playoffs win in his resume that's amazing

[Mojouw]

Or Doug Peterson


Yes, Tomlin has his strengths, but also his weaknesses .... like the defense has often been dysfunctional since Dick Lebeau left.2014, our defense was bad, but at least they were not dysfunctional.

If Coughlin is a horrible coach, I do not know what to say .... I mean, Coughlin has so many upset playoffs win in his resume that's amazing
No. Pederson was not among the candidates that Tomlin upset to win the HC job.

The defense has not been dysfunctional. Please watch more bad NFL teams to see true dysfunction. The defense occasionally blows assignments. Mostly related to the same one or two players. Tomlin and his various HC also did not stubbornly refuse to play man coverages out of some preference for zone. They simply lacked the players to consistently show that package. They have worked diligently over the past 3 off seasons to correct that.

Coughlin won 2 SBs by getting hot in the playoffs and having the Giants upset a few teams. The rest of the time his teams wildly underachieved and often looked lost and rudderless. He is way over rated because he is an “old school” guy that fans and players alike love. I bet he is a wonderful guy. He just is not an innovative or very good football coach. His teams rarely overcame adversity or distractions. Frequently lost to a string of inferior teams. Basically, every last thing that people, yourself included, are banging on Tomlin for. But Coughlin keeps getting brought up as this great example. I guess because he has a rep for being a hard ass or something.

[polamalubeast]

No. Pederson was not among the candidates that Tomlin upset to win the HC job.

The defense has not been dysfunctional. Please watch more bad NFL teams to see true dysfunction. The defense occasionally blows assignments. Mostly related to the same one or two players. Tomlin and his various HC also did not stubbornly refuse to play man coverages out of some preference for zone. They simply lacked the players to consistently show that package. They have worked diligently over the past 3 off seasons to correct that.

Coughlin won 2 SBs by getting hot in the playoffs and having the Giants upset a few teams. The rest of the time his teams wildly underachieved and often looked lost and rudderless. He is way over rated because he is an “old school” guy that fans and players alike love. I bet he is a wonderful guy. He just is not an innovative or very good football coach. His teams rarely overcame adversity or distractions. Frequently lost to a string of inferior teams. Basically, every last thing that people, yourself included, are banging on Tomlin for. But Coughlin keeps getting brought up as this great example. I guess because he has a rep for being a hard ass or something.


Not true...before the 2007 and 2011 season, Coughlin was on the hot seat .... if it's not adversity, I do not know what's it .... 2011, the giants also had a 4 games losing streak and in 2007, the giants bounced back in both times Eli Manning had a awful bad game.

Also, do not forget his success with the jaguars ..... When Coughlin is with the Jaguars, they were credible like last year.

[cubanstogie]

No. Pederson was not among the candidates that Tomlin upset to win the HC job.

The defense has not been dysfunctional. Please watch more bad NFL teams to see true dysfunction. The defense occasionally blows assignments. Mostly related to the same one or two players. Tomlin and his various HC also did not stubbornly refuse to play man coverages out of some preference for zone. They simply lacked the players to consistently show that package. They have worked diligently over the past 3 off seasons to correct that.

Coughlin won 2 SBs by getting hot in the playoffs and having the Giants upset a few teams. The rest of the time his teams wildly underachieved and often looked lost and rudderless. He is way over rated because he is an “old school” guy that fans and players alike love. I bet he is a wonderful guy. He just is not an innovative or very good football coach. His teams rarely overcame adversity or distractions. Frequently lost to a string of inferior teams. Basically, every last thing that people, yourself included, are banging on Tomlin for. But Coughlin keeps getting brought up as this great example. I guess because he has a rep for being a hard ass or something.
the ultimate goal is to win SB's though. Kind of reminds me of Ryan saying all Chris Carter does is catch touch downs.

[43Hitman]

Not true...before the 2007 and 2011 season, Coughlin was on the hot seat .... if it's not adversity, I do not know what's it .... 2011, the giants also had a 4 games losing streak and in 2007, the giants bounced back in both times Eli Manning had a awful bad game.

Also, do not forget his success with the jaguars ..... When Coughlin is with the Jaguars, they were credible like last year.

Lets see if they can repeat that success now that they have a target on their backs. It's easy to sneak up on teams when they don't expect those kinds of performances. Its a whole different ball game when everyone knows that you're coming.

[Mojouw]

Fine. Tom Coughlin is a great coach. He never wasted stacked rosters in NY.

How can a coach be great for guiding a team back from a 4 game losing streak that his crappy coaching helped create?

Tom Coughlin's teams missed the playoffs multiple times during Eli Manning's prime. Isn't missing or exiting the playoffs early during a franchise QB's tenure the cardinal sin everyone wants to flog Tomlin for? But Coughlin gets a pass on the same?

Tom Coughlin is NOT a good football coach. His record in both Jacksonville and NY was consistently mediocre -- https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CougTo0.htm

In 20 years of head coaching he only has 7 years where he won 10 or more games and 10 years where he won more than 8 games. And he has 10 years where he went 8-8 or worse. I mean that is essentially the definition of average.

[polamalubeast]

If that's not it a dysfunctional defense, I do not know what is!

[EzraTank]

I think it's definitely TIME for Tomlin to take blame for this hot mess.

[NCSteeler]

That losing season is right around the corner. This team sucks and the offense which is supposed to be the strength looks under coached and confused

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

[DesertSteel]

It's getting really hard for me to stay supportive of Tomlin...

[GoSlash27]

In all fairness, I have to throw some blame at Tomlin this week. "When does a HC get blame"? When a team performs poorly in all 3 phases. When they commit dumb penalties in all 3 phases. When they display poor fundamentals in all 3 phases.

I'm not suggesting we should grab up the torches and pitchforks and run him out of town, but he does deserve *some* blame for this loss due to bad coaching. How much of the blame is debateable, but at least some.

[Shoes]

The same people blame Tomlin, the same people defend Tomlin, sounds like politics on CNN, FOX, MSNBC etc. :lol:

[DesertSteel]

The same people blame Tomlin, the same people defend Tomlin, sounds like politics on CNN, FOX, MSNBC etc. :lol:
Hardly. Those news outlets bash Trump all the time (except for Fox).

Doesn't it show some objectivity to be able to both criticize and praise, as appropriate?

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In all fairness, I have to throw some blame at Tomlin this week. "When does a HC get blame"? When a team performs poorly in all 3 phases. When they commit dumb penalties in all 3 phases. When they display poor fundamentals in all 3 phases.

I'm not suggesting we should grab up the torches and pitchforks and run him out of town, but he does deserve *some* blame for this loss due to bad coaching. How much of the blame is debateable, but at least some.
They didn't perform poorly on Offense. 37 points should win a game.

[Shoes]

Hardly. Those news outlets bash Trump all the time (except for Fox).

Doesn't it show some objectivity to be able to both criticize and praise, as appropriate?

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They didn't perform poorly on Offense. 37 points should win a game.

Sure but who does?

[GoSlash27]

They didn't perform poorly on Offense. 37 points should win a game.

Sure they did. They committed penalties they shouldn't have committed, which put them behind the chains. They blew several drives (particularly the first 3) and wound up in a 21 point hole. They had to go one dimensional and never developed a run game, which nearly cost us the game twice.

If we had jumped out to the early lead, or even just scored one more TD, we would've won this game.

37 points *should be* enough to win a game... Except when it's not. It wasn't enough today and we had ample opportunity to score more. Poor play on the O shares some of the blame here. I will grant you that the defense (especially the secondary) is most at fault, but that doesn't absolve the offense and special teams from all responsibility.

We need to be better in all 3 phases.

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Sure but who does?

I do honestly try. ;)

[43Hitman]

Sure but who does?

I always try to be objective, however I am human so sometimes I get emotional.

[Mojouw]

Based on the limited portions of the game I saw, there really is only one real question. We spent the entire off season being repeatedly told by this coaching staff that they had innovative packages and schemes to get multiple DBs on the field. But I still see Bostic and VW trying to carry Kelce down the seam. Huh?

I have no problem with OLBs occasionally having WRs in coverage. You line up and take your shots. If they identify and pick it up, then you can get burnt. BUt I do have a problem with the total lack of innovative thinking - especially since it was long talked about.

I wonder if Burnett is more hurt than anyone is letting on?

[st33lersguy]

The system right now is poor at best, especially defensively. Steelers will never make a Super Bowl, unless they fire Keith Butler and they replace him with a much better coach

[DesertSteel]

I’m sorry but this team ended last season in a train wreck and has started the new season in a train wreck. I blame the coaches for that.

[86WARD]

Put this in the Butler Thread but it applies here as well:

At this stage, this season is just basically players not talented enough and coaches not wise enough and neither can cover up for the other.

[DesertSteel]

IMO, if Tomlin doesn't replace that sorry Punter this week, he's not serious about making changes to bring a different result. That guy is woeful and that shouldn't be lost in that mess of a defensive performance. Changing Punters is a fairly simple NFL move.

[86WARD]

Danny Smith needs to go

[j-d-s]

Tomlin numerous times blew our chances at winning with:
-not going for the onside kick
-not kicking a field goal to preserve time (when we need 10 or 11 points)
-not calling timeouts in time
-not going for it on 4th down

As for Berry, I really don't think he's that bad.

[86WARD]

He’s also won games with his decisions.

[Mojouw]

He’s also won games with his decisions.

Those don't count. The Steelers were supposed to win those games anyways.

Tomlin only causes loses. If he would just get the heck out of the way, the Steelers would win.

[pczach]

Those don't count. The Steelers were supposed to win those games anyways.

Tomlin only causes loses. If he would just get the heck out of the way, the Steelers would win.



I think it is just understood that the team wins in spite of him when they win, and overcome his substandard coaching. :sarcasm2:

When they lose...…..baby it's on! :mob:

[86WARD]

I think it is just understood that the team wins in spite of him when they win, and overcome his substandard coaching. :sarcasm2:

When they lose...…..baby it's on! :mob:

That’s a real thing though...I said it in another thread...Good Players can cover up Questionable Coaching and Good Coaching can cover up Less Talented Players. Unfortunately, to date, there is Questionable Coaching and Less Talented Players and that’s not a good mix...

[Born2Steel]

"In football when you lose no amount of explanation will suffice but if you win none is necessary".

[pczach]

That’s a real thing though...I said it in another thread...Good Players can cover up Questionable Coaching and Good Coaching can cover up Less Talented Players. Unfortunately, to date, there is Questionable Coaching and Less Talented Players and that’s not a good mix...


I fall under the defend Tomlin crowd. I have always felt he was questioned and doubted by fans far before any real criticism was even reasonable.

There are definitely some things happening with the team right now that need to be addressed and fixed immediately. There are some legit questions. I just get so sick of some of the same people that questioned him after he won a Super Bowl, went to another, and rebuilt a roster without having a losing season. I just always hate when people make claims for decades on a person until it becomes truth. It doesn't mean they were correct all along. It just means that they hated long enough for a down cycle to occur that they try to use to vindicate all the stupid shit they have said and accusations they have made over the last 11 years.

I have some questions myself over what I am seeing with this team. I think there are some tough questions to be asked, and there better be some good answers and some good solutions pretty soon. I don't, however, believe in knee-jerk reactions that call for beheading a man that has done his job pretty well for a long time.

I'm not close enough to the situation to know everything I need to know to assign blame or to offer solutions. I am still seeing a defense that literally doesn't know what they're doing on far too many plays, particularly in coverage. There are far too many receivers left completely uncovered or having players releasing receivers to the next level, but nobody on the back end is playing the same coverage that the corner thinks is being played. I can't explain that because it has gotten to the point that it is beyond belief that it is happening with the frequency that it occurs.

If Butler is indeed behind all these failures, something drastic needs to be done. If that means Tomlin takes over himself, or Bradley gets bumped up, or place next radical move here, etc..

If Tomlin's fingerprints are on this current debacle and his ideas are being implemented on the field at his direction, ownership needs to step in and force a move to have someone else take control of that side of the ball. Yes, I believe it is that serious. When you have the two highest offensive point totals that resulted in home losses in the history of the franchise happening in the last two games, that tends to get people's attention.

We'll see what happens next. This can't continue much longer before a drastic move has to be made.

[Rotorhead]

IMO, if Tomlin doesn't replace that sorry Punter this week, he's not serious about making changes to bring a different result. That guy is woeful and that shouldn't be lost in that mess of a defensive performance. Changing Punters is a fairly simple NFL move.

I would say this about Dupree, I have never seen a worse player at setting the edge, or being even remotely close to making a play than this guy. Go back and watch the Jags game, he was out of position so many times, simply standing still would have literally been more productive because he took himself out of so many plays it was ridiculous. Same for the KC game. I am a JH fan, and thought his antics were stupid, but he would literally be an upgrade if he showed up game day and put on a jersey to play. No he isn’t the answer, but my point is we have wasted enough on Dupree, give ANYONE else on the roster a chance to make some plays. Chickillo has more impact in his 5-10? Snaps than Dupree had all night. Also, this might show the team they are serious about winning, do your damn job or sit down for someone else who will!

[j-d-s]

He’s also won games with his decisions.
But never with those kind of decisions.

[Dwinsgames]

1041831217644154880

[Mojouw]

It is a process versus results combined with an excuses don't explain and explanations don't excuse cliche. What do I mean? I'll try and be brief - certainly I will fail.

1. The hole about 20-30 yards downfield between the outside CB and the safety will be there anytime you play Cover-2 or something related to it. No one cares when the result is good. When the QB hits that hole, everyone freaks out. Same process (Cover-2) different results and people go bonkers.

2. LBs on TEs down the seam. If you want to play base, it is going to happen unless you get exotic. The Chiefs and other teams that can throw or run out of base (particularly when your RB is as flexible as Hunt) puts teams in a devils bargain. Stay base and they motion out empty set and force you to either single an outside WR or try and have Bostic carry the TE. Go sub-package and they motion everyone in tight and try and punch you in the mouth up the middle. Again, the result was bad. But what is the alternative process? Here we can at least begin to talk about these Quarter and Dollar packages that are supposedly out there? We won't know if they make a difference until we start to see them.

3. OLBs on wideouts. Fundamental process to the 3-4 zone blitz. If you put the Qb on his back, no one cares. When you fail to do that and they complete a pass against it, the howls of protest begin. So what is more important to you, the process or the result? Meaning if the process is broken than it is likely coaching. If the result is the problem, then we have to look at individual player performance with a finer lens. So basically either you feel that a shift away from a 3-4 zone blitz basis for the defense or there has to be better players/execution. Either is a good answer, but they are very different.

4. These games hinge on such little things. Take this sequence. Boz makes the field goal. Then on 3rd down, Edmunds pins Hunt against the sideline and makes the tackle. KC takes the field goal. Instead, Edmunds missed the tackle. A couple inches on the kick and a better tackle and Pittsburgh gains 4 points in that swing. What happens from there? No idea. But in both cases the process was sound. Boz from 49 is a reasonable expectation and trying to deal with Hunt on the perimeter with a safety sized DB is not wholly crazy.

Now these are just a few. However, this is balanced by there being two primary problems that remain incredibly difficult to parse out as fans. What were the intended play calls and coverages versus what actually happened? On at least one TD, Burns (I think) looked pissed that he didn't have help to the inside from at least one of the safeties. Now that looks terrible on TV and Twitter. But we have no idea what really went wrong or right because we don't know the call. The second is that there is consistent talk of adjustments in tactics by using new schemes or personnel groupings yet, in the highlight and game cut-ups I've been able to find I see a lot of 2 ILB on tape. Now is that fear of what I mentioned above? Guys not being ready? Or coaches saying one thing and doing another? Again, something we will never know the answer to.

What's my point? There is plenty of bad/concerning stuff to go around, but to just run around and totally meltdown and argue that everything about how this football team goes about its business is flawed is more than a bit silly.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Tony Dungy: “I’m a former Pittsburgh defensive player. I’m a former Pittsburgh defensive coach. I don’t like what I’m seeing from that defense. It’s bad. Missed tackle after missed tackle, blown coverages, guys running wide open, no discipline on defense."

yeah, that sums it up pretty well...

[86WARD]

I fall under the defend Tomlin crowd. I have always felt he was questioned and doubted by fans far before any real criticism was even reasonable.

There are definitely some things happening with the team right now that need to be addressed and fixed immediately. There are some legit questions. I just get so sick of some of the same people that questioned him after he won a Super Bowl, went to another, and rebuilt a roster without having a losing season. I just always hate when people make claims for decades on a person until it becomes truth. It doesn't mean they were correct all along. It just means that they hated long enough for a down cycle to occur that they try to use to vindicate all the stupid shit they have said and accusations they have made over the last 11 years.

I have some questions myself over what I am seeing with this team. I think there are some tough questions to be asked, and there better be some good answers and some good solutions pretty soon. I don't, however, believe in knee-jerk reactions that call for beheading a man that has done his job pretty well for a long time.

I'm not close enough to the situation to know everything I need to know to assign blame or to offer solutions. I am still seeing a defense that literally doesn't know what they're doing on far too many plays, particularly in coverage. There are far too many receivers left completely uncovered or having players releasing receivers to the next level, but nobody on the back end is playing the same coverage that the corner thinks is being played. I can't explain that because it has gotten to the point that it is beyond belief that it is happening with the frequency that it occurs.

If Butler is indeed behind all these failures, something drastic needs to be done. If that means Tomlin takes over himself, or Bradley gets bumped up, or place next radical move here, etc..

If Tomlin's fingerprints are on this current debacle and his ideas are being implemented on the field at his direction, ownership needs to step in and force a move to have someone else take control of that side of the ball. Yes, I believe it is that serious. When you have the two highest offensive point totals that resulted in home losses in the history of the franchise happening in the last two games, that tends to get people's attention.

We'll see what happens next. This can't continue much longer before a drastic move has to be made.

I’m not for firing Tomlin. Not at all.

Butler, his clock is ticking.

Danny Smith, should be fired. He should’ve been let go before LeBeau was. His units continue to under perform, make stupid mistakes, take penalties that are unnecessary and it’s game in and game out.

Here’s the thing though, no matter what, no matter how bad they do, the front office isn’t going to fire any of these clowns during the season...that’s just not their style. If it were to happen, it would be after the season.

[polamalubeast]

1041831217644154880

This is our identity in defense since Butler is our DC.

We can question the talent, but at the same time, when a QB has 6 TD against us and did not impress me more than that in this game since every receiver was open in this game, it's a major problem for this defense.

[polamalubeast]

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