from dime to dollar

[Dwinsgames]

Less than three years ago, it was newsworthy when the Pittsburgh Steelers began using a defensive subpackage in which former Pro Bowler Lawrence Timmons came off the field on some passing downs in favor of a sixth defensive back.
Inflation is hitting the Steelers: They’ve taken that “dime” and now added a “dollar.”

https://triblive.com/sports/steelers/13928438-74/inside-the-ropes-steelers-defense-spending-time-on-the-dollar

[AtlantaDan]

Less than three years ago, it was newsworthy when the Pittsburgh Steelers began using a defensive subpackage in which former Pro Bowler Lawrence Timmons came off the field on some passing downs in favor of a sixth defensive back.
Inflation is hitting the Steelers: They’ve taken that “dime” and now added a “dollar.”

https://triblive.com/sports/steelers/13928438-74/inside-the-ropes-steelers-defense-spending-time-on-the-dollar

The solution to lack of depth at ILB? Play no ILBs - genius!

IMO the real breakthrough with this defense will be taking the concept of the 12th man to the next level.

With the Steelers running base, nickel, dollar and some occasional dime while assimilating several new players into their secondary, it perhaps isn’t surprising communication has at times been an issue. At one point Wednesday, eight defensive backs (and 12 total men) were on the field

https://triblive.com/sports/steelers/13928438-74/inside-the-ropes-steelers-defense-spending-time-on-the-dollar

Given the history of communications problems under Butler good luck getting the right players for alternating defensive packages on & off the field when the opposing offense goes no huddle/hurry up

[Dwinsgames]

The solution to lack of depth at ILB? Play no ILBs - genius!

IMO the real breakthrough with this defense will be taking the concept of the 12th man to the next level.

With the Steelers running base, nickel, dollar and some occasional dime while assimilating several new players into their secondary, it perhaps isn’t surprising communication has at times been an issue. At one point Wednesday, eight defensive backs (and 12 total men) were on the field

https://triblive.com/sports/steelers/13928438-74/inside-the-ropes-steelers-defense-spending-time-on-the-dollar

Given the history of communications problems under Butler good luck getting the right players for alternating defensive packages on & off the field when the opposing offense goes no huddle/hurry up

I blame the communication issues 100% on Butler , some may recall before he was appointed DC I was staunchly against it , citing his slow to communicate though in basic conversation as an issue moving forward very few bought it and most though it was silly and me just being pissed Lebeau was out ... I still contend anyone slow to vocally communicate basic thought will be slow to communicate any thought on the fly and when time is very limited those precious seconds ( all you are afforded to act and react ) are wasted waiting for first words to come out with Butler ... add in pressure to respond rapidly reaction time of others and it is a recipe for disaster ....

but I digress

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Its got to be in obvious passing downs. If its 3rd and 5 and the Steelers only have 2 down linemen and 7 DB's.....a lot of OC's are gonna want their QB to check to an inside zone run IMO.

5 O linemen and likely a TE, vs. 2 D linemen and 2 rush OLB......as an O line coach I would be loving it because my guys are gonna get to maul somebody.

[Dwinsgames]

a Recipe is only as good as its list of ingredients ... same can be said for defenses

we traveled this road before " post Lebeau " and it didnt work out so well ...

just like the 20 years + without a franchise QB you don't know what ya had till its gone argument , it fits here just as eloquently

- - - Updated - - -



not me , in fact not even sure Butler can spit the play out fast enough he is a slow communicator


http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/22023-LeBeau-resigning-as-Steelers-defensive-coordinator/page2?highlight=Butler+named

[Born2Steel]

The easiest way to me to forecast how the defense will look this season is simply to look at each position group and compare it to the other 31 in the league.

DL
OLB
ILB
CB
Safety

See any position groups in the top 5-10 of the league?
See any position groups in the bottom 5-10 of the league?

Maybe the coaches should get blamed for the play on the field. But if you take an honest look at this defense there are obvious holes in the talent as well.

[ALLD]

Lot of teams will be running right up the middle on the Steelers on 3rd and long.

[BlackAndGold]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/make-it-rain-dollars.gif

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

The easiest way to me to forecast how the defense will look this season is simply to look at each position group and compare it to the other 31 in the league.

DL
OLB
ILB
CB
Safety

See any position groups in the top 5-10 of the league?
See any position groups in the bottom 5-10 of the league?

Maybe the coaches should get blamed for the play on the field. But if you take an honest look at this defense there are obvious holes in the talent as well.

I see ILB as potentially bottom 5 in the NFL. I see as far as 3 man line the talent of Heyward, Tuitt, Hargrave, Alualu being one of the best 3-4 D line in the league.

[Born2Steel]

I see ILB as potentially bottom 5 in the NFL. I see as far as 3 man line the talent of Heyward, Tuitt, Hargrave, Alualu being one of the best 3-4 D line in the league.

I think we have a top shelf DL. (Top5)
Did we improve our OLB group? I don't think we did. If Bud does not have his 'break out year' it could get real bad.
Did we improve our ILB group? VW and Bostic/Matakevich is better than VW and Spence. But no, we did not.
CB is a strong position group, IMO. Maybe not top shelf but a very good group.
Davis to FS and Burnett to box safety looks better on paper, IMO. Time will tell but Berhe seems to be an upgrade over Golden. This is the group where the most improvement needs to come from.

[Fire Goodell]

I think we have a top shelf DL. (Top5)
Did we improve our OLB group? I don't think we did. If Bud does not have his 'break out year' it could get real bad.
Did we improve our ILB group? VW and Bostic/Matakevich is better than VW and Spence. But no, we did not.
CB is a strong position group, IMO. Maybe not top shelf but a very good group.
Davis to FS and Burnett to box safety looks better on paper, IMO. Time will tell but Berhe seems to be an upgrade over Golden. This is the group where the most improvement needs to come from.

I'd say OLB improves because Watt has a year under his belt and I don't think he's the type of player that will regress in his 2nd year.
Safeties might have a good group. I know it's just practice / training camp, but Edmunds is looking to be the real deal
Corners look solid with a lot of depth

ILB is the only unit that really worries me. Now that we supposedly are in subpackages 70% of the time, is the weakness at ILB something that we can cover?

[Born2Steel]

I'd say OLB improves because Watt has a year under his belt and I don't think he's the type of player that will regress in his 2nd year.
Safeties might have a good group. I know it's just practice / training camp, but Edmunds is looking to be the real deal
Corners look solid with a lot of depth

ILB is the only unit that really worries me. Now that we supposedly are in subpackages 70% of the time, is the weakness at ILB something that we can cover?

Agree Watt is a bright spot. Watt will not play 100% of snaps though. He will come off the field. Bud needs to have one hell of a break out year if he's going to get near double digit sacks. Since injuries are a part of any football season, we have Chickillo and Adams backing these guys up. I just don't have the confidence some on here seem to have. Maybe we play a 5 man DL and 6DBs, just leave the LBs on the sideline.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Agree Watt is a bright spot. Watt will not play 100% of snaps though. He will come off the field. Bud needs to have one hell of a break out year if he's going to get near double digit sacks. Since injuries are a part of any football season, we have Chickillo and Adams backing these guys up. I just don't have the confidence some on here seem to have. Maybe we play a 5 man DL and 6DBs, just leave the LBs on the sideline.

Watt can play 80% of the snaps and should have a solid year. His hustle and hand use should get him close to 10 sacks. Dupree has all the size and speed, but if he uses his hands more effectively then he too should have near 10 sacks. But, lets not forget that the OLB end up in coverage more than the Harrison and Woodley days, so their value should not be just dependant on sack totals, but rather setting edge in run game, coverage, QB pressures and sacks.

I think Watt is very much above average, Dupree is average, but performing below expectation and Chickillo is a good rotational OLB. I'm really interested to see how Keion Adams does in preseason and if he can be a contributor, but I'm not ruling out the thought of the Steelers signing somebody from final round of cuts of another team in the preseason.

[Born2Steel]

Watt can play 80% of the snaps and should have a solid year. His hustle and hand use should get him close to 10 sacks. Dupree has all the size and speed, but if he uses his hands more effectively then he too should have near 10 sacks. But, lets not forget that the OLB end up in coverage more than the Harrison and Woodley days, so their value should not be just dependant on sack totals, but rather setting edge in run game, coverage, QB pressures and sacks.

I think Watt is very much above average, Dupree is average, but performing below expectation and Chickillo is a good rotational OLB. I'm really interested to see how Keion Adams does in preseason and if he can be a contributor, but I'm not ruling out the thought of the Steelers signing somebody from final round of cuts of another team in the preseason.

Yep, we already know this about these guys and how OLBs are used today. Watt has missed TC time with an injury already. Bud was injured pretty much all last season. The point is that they will miss time, and when they do it's Chick and Adams that fill those roles. Do you have confidence in that going forward?

[Born2Steel]

The 3 man rotation of VW, Bostic, and Matakevich at the ILB is not overwhelmingly terrible. But none of these guys have been the playmaker ILB the Steelers need either. This may be the worst LB corp we have ever had counting OLB and ILB together. I don't think there is any other player we can add to this that will instantly build confidence currently. I think this will be a defensive rebuilding year and I expect a lot of mistakes. There will be some bright spots too. I expect the offense to have to win us a lot of games. That's why I chose the 28-30 points per game goal.

[AtlantaDan]

No matter the scheme the tackling has to improve

1020027358957506560

Mark Kaboly of The Athletic had a good comment on that issue and the need to improve tackling at the free safety position (site is paywalled and link to full article may not go through)

"Mike Mitchell was at the spot last year. Even though he had only a handful of missed tackles, his lack of speed prevented him from even getting into position to miss tackles at times." :chuckle:

https://theathletic.com/454914/2018/08/02/keith-butlers-message-is-being-seared-into-the-psyche-of-the-steelers-defense/

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Yep, we already know this about these guys and how OLBs are used today. Watt has missed TC time with an injury already. Bud was injured pretty much all last season. The point is that they will miss time, and when they do it's Chick and Adams that fill those roles. Do you have confidence in that going forward?

I wont lose any sleep if Chickillo and or Adams have to play OLB.

Cant have pro bowl players at every position as there are only 7 rounds to the draft and a salary cap heavily invested in probably 20% of the roster. I honestly think Chickillo gives the Steelers what Moats did, so there is backup depth, we don't know what Adams is yet. I still think Colbert will be watching the waiver wire for a veteran if the OLB backups don't look good in TC.

[tube517]

No matter the scheme the tackling has to improve

1020027358957506560

Mark Kaboly of The Athletic had a good comment on that issue and the need to improve tackling at the free safety position (site is paywalled and link to full article may not go through)

"Mike Mitchell was at the spot last year. Even though he had only a handful of missed tackles, his lack of speed prevented him from even getting into position to miss tackles at times." :chuckle:

https://theathletic.com/454914/2018/08/02/keith-butlers-message-is-being-seared-into-the-psyche-of-the-steelers-defense/

Yeah, but Mitchell was #1 in celebrations of long runs/passes allowed!

[AtlantaDan]

Yeah, but Mitchell was #1 in celebrations of long runs/passes allowed!

:grin:

The quintessential Mike Mitchell moment - celebrating after Fournette breaks off a long run in the first Jax debacle last season


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chgvGPj9-Rc

[Born2Steel]

I wont lose any sleep if Chickillo and or Adams have to play OLB.

Cant have pro bowl players at every position as there are only 7 rounds to the draft and a salary cap heavily invested in probably 20% of the roster. I honestly think Chickillo gives the Steelers what Moats did, so there is backup depth, we don't know what Adams is yet. I still think Colbert will be watching the waiver wire for a veteran if the OLB backups don't look good in TC.

"Lose sleep, Pro bowlers, Only 7 rounds, Salary cap..." are we even having the same discussion here?

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

"Lose sleep, Pro bowlers, Only 7 rounds, Salary cap..." are we even having the same discussion here?
I thought we were.

1. I have been a Steelers fan for close to 40 years, but its just a game. If a backup OLB has to play due to injury, its part of the game and nothing to be concerned with IMO.
2. Regarding talent, NFL teams cannot have upper echelon talent at all 22 starting positions. the Salary cap and draft systems steer teams to choosing where to invest draft picks and contracts towards. The Steelers currently have needs at ILB, TE, (RB by next season) and yes OLB. They cant address them all at once and a lot of $$ is invested in 3 offensive players and an O line to make that offense productive...…………...because of that the defense is less talented than others in the league, but that's just how it is.

to the original subject. Dollar defense is a sub package only in obvious passing downs. IMO, you cant play with 7DB's with 5 yards or less to gain, or any decent offense should check to a run, where the 5 O linemen will dominate 2 D linemen and 2 OLB's.

[Born2Steel]

I thought we were.

1. I have been a Steelers fan for close to 40 years, but its just a game. If a backup OLB has to play due to injury, its part of the game and nothing to be concerned with IMO.
2. Regarding talent, NFL teams cannot have upper echelon talent at all 22 starting positions. the Salary cap and draft systems steer teams to choosing where to invest draft picks and contracts towards. The Steelers currently have needs at ILB, TE, (RB by next season) and yes OLB. They cant address them all at once and a lot of $$ is invested in 3 offensive players and an O line to make that offense productive...…………...because of that the defense is less talented than others in the league, but that's just how it is.

to the original subject. Dollar defense is a sub package only in obvious passing downs. IMO, you cant play with 7DB's with 5 yards or less to gain, or any decent offense should check to a run, where the 5 O linemen will dominate 2 D linemen and 2 OLB's.



Gun to your head, yes or no. Do you have confidence in our current LB corps(ILB and OLB) heading into this season? Do you believe this can be a championship caliber group? I do not. That has been my point and all my point has been about.

[AtlantaDan]

Gun to your head, yes or no. Do you have confidence in our current LB corps(ILB and OLB) heading into this season? Do you believe this can be a championship caliber group? I do not. That has been my point and all my point has been about.

In isolation the LBs clearly are the weakest unit on the team.

But a weak link can still be part of a championship caliber team (see, e.g., the train wreck that was the 2008 Pittsburgh Steelers offensive line or Peyton Manning at QB for the 2015 Broncos)

The question is how the Steelers plan to work around it

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Gun to your head, yes or no. Do you have confidence in our current LB corps(ILB and OLB) heading into this season? Do you believe this can be a championship caliber group? I do not. That has been my point and all my point has been about.

Yes I have confidence in the Steelers current LB group.

Watt is on the way to being a star. Dupree is serviceable at the least and athletically talented enough to produce more splash plays than in past seasons. Chickillo is a reserve OLB that will get some snaps in rotation and is a solid football player.

ILB, Vince Williams is a good 2 down ILB, I think we will see Bostic replace Matakevich, but they are all 2 down ILB's. On obvious passing downs is why we will likely see Dime package and one LB, or the Dollar package that is referenced here.