James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

[Count Steeler]

https://www.foxsports.com/watch/the-herd-with-colin-cowherd/video/1281244739587?utm_campaign=share_buttons&utm_medium=fscom&utm_term=post&utm_content=return_visit&utm_source=share_url

The video is muted by default, so increase the volume on the viewer.

Communication, communication, communication.

[tube517]

Thanks for posting. Very interesting.

[hawaiiansteeler]

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/02/05/sports/05MACUR-jp/05MACUR2-articleLarge.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp

[steelcityboyz]

Two different styles of coaching by both. I have to agree with Deebo, Tomlin needs a better grasp on his team. The Cheats don't have near the talent the Steelers have, yet the cheats are in the running year after year and it starts with their coach.

[AtlantaDan]

This is either Deebo trolling or being oblivious to his behavior in 2017

He was asked by Bayless whether Belichick or Tomlin is the better coach. Without hesitation, Harrison responded “Belichick.”...

Harrison, who retired in April, elaborated that discipline was a key reason for his thinking....

“I think it’s easier if you hold everyone accountable because you don’t have to treat anyone differently because of a certain situation or a certain player,” Harrison said. “It’s a lot easier across the board. It don’t look like you’re playing favorites.”
Teammates said Harrison slept during meetings before the Steelers release, which came at the tail end of a dispute over playing time. :coffee:

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/07/19/James-Harrison-Mike-Tomlin-Bill-Belichick-Undisputed-Steelers/stories/201807190161

[ALLD]

The Cheats run a machine and Tomlin runs an artist colony. Tomlin is more concerned about his place in NFL history rather than making history based on performance. It's no coincidence there's so much drama on the Steelers.. It starts with the head coach.

No new information, only confirmation.

[Edman]

He isn't wrong, and the proof is in the results and the way the teams play.

Bottom line, it was the Patriots playing in the Super Bowl again last season, while the Steelers couldn't beat "10-points-against-Buffalo" Blake Bortles.

We hate hearing it and yet year after year, Shades Tomlin and the Steelers keep proving their critics correct.

[Cyphon25]

Yeah he really isn't saying anything most people don't already think and agree with on some level.

[DesertSteel]

What a minute!! He is saying some of the exact same things that many posters here say about Tomlin and the overall state of things and those posters get blasted for not knowing what they're talking about... Clearly Harrison is not in the know.

[Steeldude]

So exactly what many fans here have said.

[Fire Goodell]

Yeah we all know james is giving a 100% unbiased opinion. dude's saltier than a bag of pretzels :chuckle:

[DesertSteel]

That being said, the new girlfriend is always way better than the last girlfriend. Especially after a bad breakup.

[hawaiiansteeler]

We hate hearing it and yet year after year, Shades Tomlin and the Steelers keep proving their critics correct.

:cool:

[GBMelBlount]

Both are great coaches.

My opinion is that after Tomlin won a Super Bowl he seems more concerned about taking the high road and being a class act than winning.

and Belichick's model is ONLY about winning.

Tomlin has done amazingly well for his age/point in his career but again, I do not think he is as intense as he was before winning a Super Bowl.

[st33lersguy]

Does James Harrison want to discuss the differences between himself and a good teammate? That would be a lengthy discussion

[Dwinsgames]

Does James Harrison want to discuss the differences between himself and a good teammate? That would be a lengthy discussion


I think I would rather have 53 James Harrison types ( fierce competitors )

than 53 choir boys all trying to make the other 52 happy ...

James was never accused of being a bad team mate until he had himself been played and lied to to the point where he just didnt give a shit anymore and wanted out ...

in fact quite the opposite is true , young players flocked to work out with him and get better at their craft and get into much better shape ( well documented )

so while we all may hate how James handled the situation , I also think it is safe to say none of us are quite like James ... not sure there has ever been a more fierce competitor that trains as hard for his craft as James has ..

while I was not privy to internal talks Tomlin was on record of saying James was being " saved" ( to be fresh later in the season ) early on so he was lied to and I understand why he was pissed / frustrated etc ... I do not agree with how he handled it but I also wasnt in that situation so who knows if I would have handled it any better ?

I do know however if I spent as much time getting ready to do something as James does to play and I didnt get to do whatever it was I would be HIGHLY pissed ....


all that said I believe he is correct .... head to head Tomlin -BillIcheat further proves that point as IMO Tomlin has had the stronger roster each and every meeting and has still managed to come out on the wrong side of the W column more often than not

[DesertSteel]

^^^

What you should say is that Harrison wasn’t a bad teammate until he was benched.

[BlackAndGold]

Of course Bill is better than Tomlin, he's the greatest coach ever.

But I don't care to hear the opinion of someone who slept during meetings. Guess we can place Harrison with Bradshaw as former players who has a really nothing positive to say about the team.


Enjoy retirement #92. Also remember not to lay hands on your wife.

[st33lersguy]

I think I would rather have 53 James Harrison types ( fierce competitors )

than 53 choir boys all trying to make the other 52 happy ...

James was never accused of being a bad team mate until he had himself been played and lied to to the point where he just didnt give a shit anymore and wanted out ...

in fact quite the opposite is true , young players flocked to work out with him and get better at their craft and get into much better shape ( well documented )

so while we all may hate how James handled the situation , I also think it is safe to say none of us are quite like James ... not sure there has ever been a more fierce competitor that trains as hard for his craft as James has ..

while I was not privy to internal talks Tomlin was on record of saying James was being " saved" ( to be fresh later in the season ) early on so he was lied to and I understand why he was pissed / frustrated etc ... I do not agree with how he handled it but I also wasnt in that situation so who knows if I would have handled it any better ?

I do know however if I spent as much time getting ready to do something as James does to play and I didnt get to do whatever it was I would be HIGHLY pissed ....


all that said I believe he is correct .... head to head Tomlin -BillIcheat further proves that point as IMO Tomlin has had the stronger roster each and every meeting and has still managed to come out on the wrong side of the W column more often than not

I don't care how fierce a competitor he is, he showed his true colors the way he handled the situation. So he wasn't playing in many games, grow up and help the young guys, be a mentor, don't cause needless drama just cause you don't get your way. He takes the C and the L out of class real good

[Cyphon25]

Harrison isn't one of say, my top 10 favorite players but I actually was mostly on his side during the whole meetings/leaving thing. There are certainly better ways to handle things but 99% wouldn't use those ways either if we were in Harrisons position. From what we know the Steelers were giving him the run around and left him rotting on the bench and it was particularly bad when you look at who he had to sit behind in Bud Dupree. So yeah, Harrison shouldn't have been sleeping in meetings but the team also shouldn't have did what they did.

Look at it a different way. If Harrison was considering that his last season and wanted to play it out by playing and the Steelers told him he would be doing just that but lied, they basically had him trapped in a wasted last year of his career. Reports said Harrison asked to be released (tried doing the right thing) and the Steelers wouldn't do it. So he took the only option left to him to try and have a last productive season.

The Steelers were far more at fault than James Harrison and I hold absolutely no grudge against him. I don't hold a grudge against the Steelers either but if you are looking to place blame you shouldn't be looking at James.

[Butch]

Of course Belicheat is better he cheats and gets away with it on a regular basis. While I love discipline that is just a disguise for what is the real reason for their success. Give us the same advantages they had and we would rip them apart. Shady brady would be average if that team hadn't been allowed to get away with the stunts they have pulled.

I don't blame James for what he did, as Dwins pointed out he was lied to and that's on Tomlin. That being said James it's time to get over it, and remember this is the organization that gave you a chance to shine despite having many reasons to cut you much earlier in your career. I understand the bitterness but it's time to move on. For once disengage your mouth and let the wounds heal.

Screw the cheats and all those who respect them!!!

[Steeldude]

I don't care how fierce a competitor he is, he showed his true colors the way he handled the situation. So he wasn't playing in many games, grow up and help the young guys, be a mentor, don't cause needless drama just cause you don't get your way. He takes the C and the L out of class real good

And Tomlin showed his inability to coach.

[teegre]

As I’ve posted in the 300 other James Harrison threads...

Q: Would you have really benched Watt in favor of Harrison?

A: Nope.


(And, before you bring up Dupree, remember that as good as Harrison is, he can’t play OLB from the other side.)

[tom444]

Of course Belicheat is better he cheats and gets away with it on a regular basis. While I love discipline that is just a disguise for what is the real reason for their success. Give us the same advantages they had and we would rip them apart. Shady brady would be average if that team hadn't been allowed to get away with the stunts they have pulled.

Well, you certainly have the right to feel that way, but I hope our coaches don't see it that way. Cheat, don't cheat, better players, worse players, Belichick will beat you anyway you want to play. That's the real message that coaches around the league need to get, digest, and use.

[Mojouw]

As I’ve posted in the 300 other James Harrison threads...

Q: Would you have really benched Watt in favor of Harrison?

A: Nope.


(And, before you bring up Dupree, remember that as good as Harrison is, he can’t play OLB from the other side.)

Additionally, Harrison NEVER had a problem with basically the same coaching staff until he didn't get to play. Then suddenly there is no communication and blah blah blah.

However, I do suspect that some of what he said is a bit true. Lebeau was known for the complexity of his defensive play-book and play calls. Butler can't have strayed too far from that.

Looking at these comments -- http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots/the_blitz/2018/07/james_harrison_explains_why_patriots_coaches_are_b etter_than

It kinda seems like we are really talking about position coaches on the defensive side of the ball. Don't we all already know that Porter and Lake are below the bar?

[Dwinsgames]

I don't care how fierce a competitor he is, he showed his true colors the way he handled the situation. So he wasn't playing in many games, grow up and help the young guys, be a mentor, don't cause needless drama just cause you don't get your way. He takes the C and the L out of class real good


5 games , 32 snaps ( or whatever the number was ) .... for the guy who was the teams best pass rusher the prior year and was held out of training camp " to save him" say what you will but at the end of the day nobody took his job away ... his job was handed away and he was never allowed to compete for it ... competitors want to compete ..Tomlin lied to him and he had had it .... ever been lied to ? ever said ok screw that guy/girl/job I am done ?

that is what James did .... nothing more , nothing less he checked out of the relationship ...

we do not have to like or agree with how he did it as it was not for us to decide , he wanted out , got out ... he has to live with the hows and wheres not us ... I will lose no sleep over the details nor have I ...

but if you are making the claim James showed his true colors by acting as he did to get out .... then at the same time it is only fair to say Tomlin showed he can not be trusted or held to his word ...

Tomlin said " we are holding James out so he is fresh down the road James is a competitor and he will be ready"

so if we are going to call out 1 for his actions we should also be ready to call out the reason behind the actions as we live in a cause and effect world

[86WARD]

I don't care how fierce a competitor he is, he showed his true colors the way he handled the situation. So he wasn't playing in many games, grow up and help the young guys, be a mentor, don't cause needless drama just cause you don't get your way. He takes the C and the L out of class real good

Those weren’t his true colors and you know it. Stop being so butt hurt over him being a baby and leaving. It’s in the past. The guys a fucking legend LB for the Steelers and pretty much won them a Super Bowl...lol.

[Fire Goodell]

That being said, the new girlfriend is always way better than the last girlfriend. Especially after a bad breakup.

Straight up. After a bad breakup, being single is better than the last girlfriend lol :chuckle:

[Cyphon25]

As I’ve posted in the 300 other James Harrison threads...

Q: Would you have really benched Watt in favor of Harrison?

A: Nope.


(And, before you bring up Dupree, remember that as good as Harrison is, he can’t play OLB from the other side.)

2 things:

1. The best solution would be to flip sides. Put Watt on Duprees side and give Harrison a good portion of Duprees snaps. And in case there is any argument keep in mind that is exactly what they are doing this year to some extent (minus having Harrison in the equation).

2. Even without the flip yes, I would have given Harrison some of Watts snaps. It keeps both guys more fresh and keep in mind Watt started out hot but wasn't exactly blowing up offenses late in the season. Even as we sit here this second Harrison is probably still a better pure pass rusher than Watt.

[tom444]

Baring criminal activity the only thing a player owes us as a fan is his play on the field. Harrison balled.

[Dwinsgames]

As I’ve posted in the 300 other James Harrison threads...

Q: Would you have really benched Watt in favor of Harrison?

A: Nope.


(And, before you bring up Dupree, remember that as good as Harrison is, he can’t play OLB from the other side.)


who said anything about benching ?

active 5 games and playing 32 snaps had zero impact on keeping Watt fresh or saving Harrison ...

point is Tomlin anointed Watt and lied to Harrison ...

the Lie is what created the entire issue ....

not being able to compete created the issue ....

allow the man to do his job and be honest with him and there is no issue ...


what would Watt have looked like had he not been played as much as a rookie come playoff time ?

7,8,9 10 less snaps per game doesn't sound like much but in the NFL snaps being so cumulative make a difference come week 16,17,18 especially with rookies

[Mojouw]

In Week 17, Harrison had 3 solo tackles, 2 assists, and 2 sacks. Watt had 6 solo tackles, 2 assists, and 1 sack.

In the playoffs Harrison had 7 tackles and 1 assist in 3 games. Watt had 1 tackle and 1 assist in 1 game.

I'm not seeing a whole hell of a lot of difference here.

In Week 16 Bud Dupree (looks like he didn't play Week 17? I don't remember) had 5 tackles and 1 assist. In the playoff game, Dupree had 3 tackles and 1 assist.

Now I realize that these stats fail to account for where those tackles were on the field, other responsibilities such as setting the edge, backside pursuit, containment, pass coverage etc. But it looks like, at least to me, the real sticking point here was that Harrison couldn't or wouldn't play Dupree's side. That was (and maybe still is) the path to snaps in the OLB rotation.

[DesertSteel]

I'm not sure they're giving anyone the chance to supplant Bud... they hitched their wagon to his potential and will likely ride it out - sink or swim (to mix my metaphors).

- - - Updated - - -



the Lie is what created the entire issue ....

The lie? What is this Little League? Maybe James should have had his mom intercede for him to get more playing time. It's a grown man game. Do you think James would have been upset if they told TJ he was playing but put Harrison in instead? It was absolutely, 100% the right decision to play Watt over Harrison. TJ is the future, and in the interim was one of their best defenders last year. And if Harrison still has so much left in the tank, teams will be beating down his door to sign him for 2018.

[Mojouw]

I'm not sure they're giving anyone the chance to supplant Bud... they hitched their wagon to his potential and will likely ride it out - sink or swim (to mix my metaphors).
You make a good point! They do seem oddly entranced with Dupree.

[DesertSteel]

You make a good point! They do seem oddly entranced with Dupree.
At least he's a hair better than Jarvis!

[Dwinsgames]

I'm not sure they're giving anyone the chance to supplant Bud... they hitched their wagon to his potential and will likely ride it out - sink or swim (to mix my metaphors).

- - - Updated - - -


The lie? What is this Little League? Maybe James should have had his mom intercede for him to get more playing time. It's a grown man game. Do you think James would have been upset if they told TJ he was playing but put Harrison in instead? It was absolutely, 100% the right decision to play Watt over Harrison. TJ is the future, and in the interim was one of their best defenders last year. And if Harrison still has so much left in the tank, teams will be beating down his door to sign him for 2018.

a man is only as good as his word

Tomlins word has been proven to be worth about as much as a half cup of day old cold coffee ...

You do not tell a man something and then not follow through , maybe that's part of what is wrong with the world today , People do not keep their word and they spew shit they have no intentions of backing up just to keep you quiet in the interim ...

for the record nobody has suggested Harrison should have been named the starter , but I think most everyone believes battles should be won via competition not anointment

https://triblive.com/sports/steelers/12739041-74/mike-tomlin-insists-james-harrison-isnt-a-forgotten-man-on-steelers-defense

[teegre]

who said anything about benching ?

active 5 games and playing 32 snaps had zero impact on keeping Watt fresh or saving Harrison ...

point is Tomlin anointed Watt and lied to Harrison ...

the Lie is what created the entire issue ....

not being able to compete created the issue ....

allow the man to do his job and be honest with him and there is no issue ...


what would Watt have looked like had he not been played as much as a rookie come playoff time ?

7,8,9 10 less snaps per game doesn't sound like much but in the NFL snaps being so cumulative make a difference come week 16,17,18 especially with rookies

Valid points.

Here’s my take on the situation.

1) James Harrison was battling a back injury. He was allowed to rehab (not practice) during the preseason.

2) Things went to shit.

Harrison claims that he was lied to. We’re not sure if he was or wasn’t lied to, because we weren’t there... and while Harrison has aired his grievances through the media, Tomlin hasn’t retorted.

IMO, the plan was indeed to give James two series (7-10 snaps) per game. But, because Watt faired so well in the preseason, he was given the starting job... and James immediately (per his own recollection of events) revolted/starting being a disruptive force during team meetings.

IMO, instead of sticking to the original plan (7-10 snaps), Tomlin decided to discipline James. What better way to discipline a man like James, but to take away playing time. A fine? Harrison doesn’t care about money. Losing playing time? Yep, that’s how you discipline James. Alas... James responded by digging his heels in, which brought on more discipline from Tomlin (via less playing time), which brought about more heel-digging... until James was released.

What I find interesting is that people site this specific incident as an example of Tomlin’s lack of discipline, when it’s actually one of Tomlin’s biggest examples of disciplining a player.

[Dwinsgames]

Valid points.

Here’s my take on the situation.

1) James Harrison was battling a back injury. He was allowed to rehab (not practice) during the preseason.

2) Things went to shit.

Harrison claims that he was lied to. We’re not sure if he was or wasn’t lied to, because we weren’t there... and while Harrison has aired his grievances through the media, Tomlin hasn’t retorted.

IMO, the plan was indeed to give James two series (7-10 snaps) per game. But, because Watt faired so well in the preseason, he was given the starting job... and James immediately (per his own recollection of events) revolted/starting being a disruptive force during team meetings.

IMO, instead of sticking to the original plan (7-10 snaps), Tomlin decided to discipline James. What better way to discipline a man like James, but to take away playing time. A fine? Harrison doesn’t care about money. Losing playing time? Yep, that’s how you discipline James. Alas... James responded by digging his heels in, which brought on more discipline from Tomlin (via less playing time), which brought about more heel-digging... until James was released.

What I find interesting is that people site this specific incident as an example of Tomlin’s lack of discipline, when it’s actually one of Tomlin’s biggest examples of disciplining a player.


oh we know he lied to James just like he lied to us , see link above your reply and there is a video I posted a few months back on this very topic ( in yet a thread that who knows where it is cause there are so many like threads ) in reply to Hawkman with Tomlins mouth we can hear the words come out that James will be ready and there is a plan for James so he can be fresh as the season wears on ... James is a competitor and he will be ready , doesnt need camp snaps yada yada yada ....

[teegre]

oh we know he lied to James just like he lied to us , see link above your reply and there is a video I posted a few months back on this very topic ( in yet a thread that who knows where it is cause there are so many like threads ) in reply to Hawkman with Tomlins mouth we can hear the words come out that James will be ready and there is a plan for James so he can be fresh as the season wears on ... James is a competitor and he will be ready , doesnt need camp snaps yada yada yada ....

Right.

Like I said, that was indeed the plan.

James was disciplined during the Browns game. If James had acted appropriately, the plan would still have been to give him 7-10 snaps per game. Instead, James responded (by his own admission) by sleeping during team meetings the following week... bringing on more (& more) discipline.

#visciouscycle
#downwardspiral

[Dwinsgames]

http://www.steelers.com/news/press-c...c-6e8e123620df (http://www.steelers.com/news/press-conference-takes/article-1/Tomlins-takes-hit-on-preseason-Harrison/a40b42c0-c225-4f20-abbc-6e8e123620df)

[hawaiiansteeler]

oh we know he lied to James just like he lied to us , see link above your reply and there is a video I posted a few months back on this very topic ( in yet a thread that who knows where it is cause there are so many like threads ) in reply to Hawkman with Tomlins mouth we can hear the words come out that James will be ready and there is a plan for James so he can be fresh as the season wears on ... James is a competitor and he will be ready , doesnt need camp snaps yada yada yada ....

how much of that is on Tomlin compared to Joey Porter in your opinion?

[Dwinsgames]

how much of that is on Tomlin compared to Joey Porter in your opinion?

damn good question ....

I have always felt Porter was envious of Harrison and held a grudge towards James for making him expendable all those years ago ...

Porter was a good player no question But Harrison was on another level IMO and I honestly believe Porter will never be half the coach or decision maker that he was a player ...

that said he could be a bigger part of this than Tomlin but ultimately Tomlin has the final word ....

That Final word however I am not sure Tomlin does much of that , I think he entrusts his staff to make most of those calls ...

I could be wrong but it is my belief Tomlin is more of an administrator and mouth piece than anything else ..the devil is in the details and I think that is left to the coordinators and staff more than anything ( I could be wrong )

[DesertSteel]

a man is only as good as his word

Tomlins word has been proven to be worth about as much as a half cup of day old cold coffee ...

You do not tell a man something and then not follow through , maybe that's part of what is wrong with the world today , People do not keep their word and they spew shit they have no intentions of backing up just to keep you quiet in the interim ...

for the record nobody has suggested Harrison should have been named the starter , but I think most everyone believes battles should be won via competition not anointment

https://triblive.com/sports/steelers/12739041-74/mike-tomlin-insists-james-harrison-isnt-a-forgotten-man-on-steelers-defense
Well have you heard Tomlin's side of the story? You're suggesting that Harrison is credible based on what? His abusive background? His childish behavior?

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Right.

Like I said, that was indeed the plan.

James was disciplined during the Browns game. If James had acted appropriately, the plan would still have been to give him 7-10 snaps per game. Instead, James responded (by his own admission) by sleeping during team meetings the following week... bringing on more (& more) discipline.

#visciouscycle
#downwardspiral
Exactly.

You tell your 8-year old you're going to take him to the park, but in the interim he throws a temper tantrum because he has to wait. As a result, you decide not to take him. In some people's view, that makes him a liar.

[Dwinsgames]

Well have you heard Tomlin's side of the story? You're suggesting that Harrison is credible based on what? His abusive background? His childish behavior?

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Exactly.

You tell your 8-year old you're going to take him to the park, but in the interim he throws a temper tantrum because he has to wait. As a result, you decide not to take him. In some people's view, that makes him a liar.

great analogy , if it where true ...

but the facts in the case do not support your theory

James was shunned day 1 of training camp and told he was being saved as he worked off to the side of everyone else in non team drills

he did not walk into camp pouting

you want to throw 1 abusive incident his face on a MSG board that was never proven in court to try and help support your view point when your star QB has 2 incidents that where much worse ( and never proven either ) those are egg shells I wont dare to walk on I am out

[DesertSteel]

great analogy , if it where true ...

but the facts in the case do not support your theory

James was shunned day 1 of training camp and told he was being saved as he worked off to the side of everyone else in non team drills

he did not walk into camp pouting

you want to throw 1 abusive incident his face on a MSG board that was never proven in court to try and help support your view point when your star QB has 2 incidents that where much worse ( and never proven either ) those are egg shells I wont dare to walk on I am out
He didn't pout coming to camp because he thought he was going to be the man. He wasn't. That's life. Watt played too well to take him off the field.

And the charges against him were dropped because he entered domestic abuse counseling. And I'm not saying I'd take Ben's word for anything either.

[teegre]

James was shunned day 1 of training camp and told he was being saved as he worked off to the side of everyone else in non team drills

James was recovering from a back injury. Allowing him to sit out of drills is not the same as him being shunned.

[teegre]

Well have you heard Tomlin's side of the story? You're suggesting that Harrison is credible based on what? His abusive background? His childish behavior?

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Exactly.

You tell your 8-year old you're going to take him to the park, but in the interim he throws a temper tantrum because he has to wait. As a result, you decide not to take him. In some people's view, that makes him a liar.

TOMLIN:
Exactly. We have never heard Tomlin’s side.

ANALOGY:
Nailed it!!! I might add that the 8-year-old then cries to his grandma, and the grandma chastises the parent for “lying.”

[Dwinsgames]

James was recovering from a back injury. Allowing him to sit out of drills is not the same as him being shunned.

sorry if I do not buy into the teams " back injury report " go look back through his instagram workouts .... guys who have back injuries do not do anything close to what James was doing ....

I am not the only one who disbelieved those reports .... https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/nfl-pittsburgh-steelers-news/2017/11/9/16627640/james-harrisons-back-injury-doesnt-stop-him-from-hitting-the-gym-workout-video-steelers-nfl

[Dwinsgames]

so when was this " back injury " I do not see its effects August through November


https://www.instagram.com/p/Baljzt6Af7C/?taken-by=jhharrison92


https://www.instagram.com/p/Babdwq-gaOP/?taken-by=jhharrison92


https://www.instagram.com/p/BaJe-WRgWKF/?taken-by=jhharrison92


https://www.instagram.com/p/BZd72DMAaRb/?taken-by=jhharrison92


https://www.instagram.com/p/BXcvdCVgX6C/?taken-by=jhharrison92


https://www.instagram.com/p/BXVm5tmgPEg/?taken-by=jhharrison92

[Cyphon25]

Porter was a good player no question But Harrison was on another level IMO

I think people sometimes forget how good Porter was and he is kind of written out (at least a little) when it comes to Steelers greats. I know there is more than stats but here is a comparison:

Sacks - JP 98 > JH 84.5 (single season JP 17.5 > JH 16)
Force Fumbles - JH 34 > JP 26
INT - JP 12 > JH 8
PD - JP 50 > JH 25
Tackles - JH 793 > JP 667
JP - 4x Probowl, 2x 1st Team AP, 2x 2nd Team AP, 2000's All Decade Team
JH - 5x Probowl, 2x 1st Team AP, 2x 2nd Team AP, DPotY

Harrison played like 6 more career games than Porter. So what you see is both were great blitzers with Porter arguably being better given the numbers. Harrison was stronger against the run and racked up more tackles while Porter was the better cover guy.

[Dwinsgames]

I think people sometimes forget how good Porter was and he is kind of written out (at least a little) when it comes to Steelers greats. I know there is more than stats but here is a comparison:

Sacks - JP 98 > JH 84.5 (single season JP 17.5 > JH 16)
Force Fumbles - JH 34 > JP 26
INT - JP 12 > JH 8
PD - JP 50 > JH 25
Tackles - JH 793 > JP 667
JP - 4x Probowl, 2x 1st Team AP, 2x 2nd Team AP, 2000's All Decade Team
JH - 5x Probowl, 2x 1st Team AP, 2x 2nd Team AP, DPotY

Harrison played like 6 more career games than Porter. So what you see is both were great blitzers with Porter arguably being better given the numbers. Harrison was stronger against the run and racked up more tackles while Porter was the better cover guy.

the one thing over looked here is Porter always had a guy on the other side and Harrison outside of a couple years of the very good Woodley had basically a warm body filling the spot which allowed teams to slant protections to Harrison's side

[Cyphon25]

the one thing over looked here is Porter always had a guy on the other side and Harrison outside of a couple years of the very good Woodley had basically a warm body filling the spot which allowed teams to slant protections to Harrison's side

I am sure there is some of that but Porter didn't always have beasts on his side. When he played for the Dolphins and had his 17.5 sack season I think the guy on the other side of him was Matt Roth or some such. And I can't remember but while Porter had some good guys did he ever have a guy Woodleys level opposite him?

[Dwinsgames]

I am sure there is some of that but Porter didn't always have beasts on his side. When he played for the Dolphins and had his 17.5 sack season I think the guy on the other side of him was Matt Roth or some such. And I can't remember but while Porter had some good guys did he ever have a guy Woodleys level opposite him?

to be fair Woodley only was noteworthy a few years ....

whereas Porter had Gildon most of his tenure here and ended with Haggans .... Gildon was the teams all time sack leader

also in Miami he had a guy named Cameron Wake who didnt hurt his chances of getting after the QB Wake even in his declining years had to be accounted for

[Born2Steel]

Seriously? Who did it better, Porter of Harrison debate? For the Steelers it was Harrison, and there is no debate, IMO. Porter could have been an all time great Steeler but ended up changing teams. Porter had a good career in Miami, but did he ever reach the same level of awesome as Harrison did? Sack numbers look great on a stat sheet but Harrison played the position better for what this defense needed. What if for Porter in the long term...???

[teegre]

sorry if I do not buy into the teams " back injury report " go look back through his instagram workouts .... guys who have back injuries do not do anything close to what James was doing ....

I am not the only one who disbelieved those reports .... https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/nfl-pittsburgh-steelers-news/2017/11/9/16627640/james-harrisons-back-injury-doesnt-stop-him-from-hitting-the-gym-workout-video-steelers-nfl

Yep.

Harrison said that he had a back injury, but kept doing those crazy workouts. Tomlin allowed Harrison to “skip” camp, so that Harrison could “rehab” his back.

SUMMATION:
Tomlin is damned is he does, damned if he doesn’t.

If Tomlin let’s Harrison rehab/sit out, the Tomlin is somehow shunning Harrison. If Tomlin forces Harrison to participate in camp drills, Tomlin looks like a heartless a$$hole.

[Dwinsgames]

Yep.

Harrison said that he had a back injury, but kept doing those crazy workouts. Tomlin allowed Harrison to “skip” camp, so that Harrison could “rehab” his back.

SUMMATION:
Tomlin is damned is he does, damned if he doesn’t.

If Tomlin let’s Harrison rehab/sit out, the Tomlin is somehow shunning Harrison. If Tomlin forces Harrison to participate in camp drills, Tomlin looks like a heartless a$$hole.


see I do not have the same recollection , I seem to recall interviews with Harrison that states something along the lines of .. I have not yet been told the plan I am hear and doing what they tell me to do when they tell me its time to get on the field I will get on the field .....when coach wants me out there I will be out there its not my choice I do not make those calls they haven't told me anything yet ....

not anything saying my back is hurt I cant play or participate or they are holding me out to heal etc

[DesertSteel]

Yep.

Harrison said that he had a back injury, but kept doing those crazy workouts. Tomlin allowed Harrison to “skip” camp, so that Harrison could “rehab” his back.

SUMMATION:
Tomlin is damned is he does, damned if he doesn’t.

If Tomlin let’s Harrison rehab/sit out, the Tomlin is somehow shunning Harrison. If Tomlin forces Harrison to participate in camp drills, Tomlin looks like a heartless a$$hole.
I guess it's a good thing that Tomlin doesn't care what some stranger on the internet thinks.

[fansince'76]

He isn't wrong, and the proof is in the results and the way the teams play.

Bottom line, it was the Patriots playing in the Super Bowl again last season, while the Steelers couldn't beat "10-points-against-Buffalo" Blake Bortles.

Speaking of which, the Malcolm Butler benching was a masterstroke...

I could only imagine the amount of bitching that would ensue if the Steelers ever lost a SB where Ben goes for 500+ after Tomlin had benched the team's best CB for the game.

[Mojouw]

These are mostly grown men playing a sport for money. Ultimately, the coaching staff has one objective - "Win". Further they are responsible to one person, the team owner that signs their paychecks. Everything is simply noise. Additionally, Tomlin (and really all coaches) has a long record of saying one thing in the press and another behind closed doors.

For all we know all those "saving" Harrison comments were to hide the fact that he was getting smoked in drills by rookies and veteran back-ups and Tomlin didn't want to throw him under the bus. Overall in 2017 he played well in a limited role against a tackle (Erik Fisher) that he has so screwed up Harrison could likely make Fisher fall over just by walking on the field and he had some "Dong" sacks for NE in Week 17. In the SB he had almost no impact on the game. Then he quietly retired in April. Maybe tape doesn't lie in this case and despite the amazing Instagram workouts and the still ridiculous ability to hold up at the point of attack - there is no place for a purely run stuffing edge defender who has lost his juice in the pass rush and has no ability to play in space?

I honestly don't know. Maybe Harrison still has a ton of "Deebo" games left in the tank and the ageism that is rampant in sports is biting him in the ass and he decided it wasn't worth it anymore. But to act like we really know what did or didn't take place is silly. Especially since one party is telling their side to anyone that will listen and the other side is not saying a damn thing.

[Born2Steel]

Harrison was brought out of retirement to fill a football need. Drafting Watt also addressed that need. James did not come back to 'play' for the Steelers only to sit out or be on the inactive list. This is the part he feels lied to about. It was only a 2 year deal anyway so playing Watt over Harrison was the smart move by the coaching staff. It is unfortunate how Harrison reacted to it but it was the smart thing to do as a team. James fulfilled his role and when it was no longer needed he was more or less cast aside. I get the hurt feelings but this is a business first. I get it yet don't care. Every player reaches this point in their career. Each handles it in their own way. If 'Da Beard' had ended the same as Harrison instead of injured, how would this discussion go? I don't think Keisel would have acted out but we won't ever know that. The way James reacted was selfish and not part of "TEAM". His reasons for it may be justified to a point but it was still selfish. Tomlin has to think about the entire team, next season, and the season after that. It's never about any 1 player, or simply cut and dried promises were made. It is more complicated than 2 guys talking.

- - - Updated - - -

And....does James Harrison really think Coach Bill would not cut his throat if it meant a perceived upgrade to the team?

[DesertSteel]

I love this stat line in the new ESPN article on Watt:

Watt was the only NFL linebacker with at least 50 tackles, five sacks, five passes defended and an interception last season.

[Mojouw]

And....does James Harrison really think Coach Bill would not cut his throat if it meant a perceived upgrade to the team?

Yeah. Surely not the coach/gm who has traded, cut, benched, and whatever players left, right, and center over his entire tenure in a constant attempt to maximize his "assets". Not that dude.

[teegre]

see I do not have the same recollection , I seem to recall interviews with Harrison that states something along the lines of .. I have not yet been told the plan I am hear and doing what they tell me to do when they tell me its time to get on the field I will get on the field .....when coach wants me out there I will be out there its not my choice I do not make those calls they haven't told me anything yet ....

not anything saying my back is hurt I cant play or participate or they are holding me out to heal etc

I remember Harrison claiming he had a back injury, and being allowed to sit out of camp drills... and people lambasting Tomlin as being “soft” on Harrison. Some insinuated that Harrison had “pulled one over” on Tomlin, because (again) Tomlin is too “soft”.

In the meantime, Watt was taking a firm grasp of the starting spot... and whether James was faking or had a real injury, it allowed Watt to be the opening game starter.

Then, as I’ve said before, Harrison responded (by his own admission) by being disruptive during team meetings. Discipline ensued, followed by heel-digging... into a downward spiral.

[Dwinsgames]

Will T.J. Watt start? James Harrison doesn't know

James Harrison is not participating in training camp, maybe not even for another two weeks. But he is not standing around, watching.
He is in the gym at Saint Vincent College in Latrobe in the early morning, doing those maniacal workouts he posts on social media. In the afternoon, while his teammates are practicing on one of the grass fields, he is on another, wearing a sweatsuit with long sleeves and pants and doing cone drills, sprints and grunting as though he is doing a 600-pound squat. Perspiration has darkened the gray color of his sweats.





“Practicing would be a lot easier than the stuff I’m doing,” Harrison said, nodding toward the practice field.
Harrison is getting antsy, not just for the start of what will be his 15th season with the Steelers, but to get on the practice field with his teammates. At age 39, he is ready to go for another year, thankful the Steelers still want him around at right outside linebacker.


But the process is going to have to wait a little longer.


“As long as everyone stays healthy, I don’t see doing anything for at least 10 to 14 days,” Harrison said.
That is the Steelers plan for Harrison, who, despite his age, played in 18 of the 19 games in 2016 and still led the team with five sacks — the ninth time in his career he has had at least five in a season. That was the most games he has played in a season since 2010, when he appeared in all 16 regular-season games and three postseason games.
For now, they will give all the first-team snaps to rookie T.J. Watt, their No. 1 draft choice, and get him ready to split time with Harrison, the team’s all-time sack leader with 79½. Who starts will be determined at a later date, but Harrison showed in 2016 he got better as the season wore on.


“We’ll see how it works,” Harrison said. “I don’t know what they’re going to do.
“That’s something you will have to ask them. I mean, who don’t want to start?”


Harrison began 2016 splitting time with former No. 1 pick Jarvis Jones, but, as the games became more important Harrison spent more time on the field. He started the final seven of the regular season and all three postseason games, registering 5½ sacks in those 10 games. That included 1½ sacks along with 10 tackles and a forced fumble in the wild-card playoff game against the Miami Dolphins.
“I think my numbers showed the more I played the better I played,” Harrison said.

[PHOTOS: Camp Tomlin, Day 6] (https://newsinteractive.post-gazette.com/photos/2017/08/02/camp-tomlin-day-6/) Harrison’s strong finish convinced the Steelers to bring him back for at least one more season. Harrison, though, didn’t need any more proof. Unlike the previous season, when he said he wanted to take a six-week conditioning period to determine if he wanted to come back in 2016, the one-time NFL defensive player of the year made no such declaration this year.
“I didn’t need to be convinced,” Harrison said. “I was convinced once I started the year, back when I came to training camp.”
Meantime, he waits. And trains. And grunts, putting his body through workouts that marvel even his teammates. He said he feels fine, though he concedes it’s not getting any easier.
“It does get tougher,” Harrison said. “You just find ways to try and cope and do what you can with what you got left.”
Harrison always seems to have plenty left.
Gerry Dulac: gdulac@post-gazette.com and Twitter @gerrydulac.

[teegre]

Right.

Harrison claimed he had a back injury. Tomlin allows Harrison to do his own thing... and Harrison responds by doing those crazy workouts. (NOTE: Being able to work out does not equal being able to participate in practices.)

Insert the rhetoric about Tomlin being “soft”.

Yet, if Tomlin had forced Harrison to participate, Tomlin would be seen as an a$$hole.

Using DesertSteel’s 8-year-old analogy:
The 8-year-old refuses to get out of bed, saying that he has a stomach ache. The parents had planned a trip to Disneyland... but, due to the “stomach ache”, it now has to be cancelled. Suddenly, the 8-year-old is up doing chores (trying to show that he’s all better now). And, grandma tsk-tsk’s the parents.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Right.

Harrison claimed he had a back injury. Tomlin allows Harrison to do his own thing... and Harrison responds by doing those crazy workouts. (NOTE: Being able to work out does not equal being able to participate in practices.)

Insert the rhetoric about Tomlin being “soft”.

Yet, if Tomlin had forced Harrison to participate, Tomlin would be seen as an a$$hole.

Using DesertSteel’s 8-year-old analogy:
The 8-year-old refuses to get out of bed, saying that he has a stomach ache. The parents had planned a trip to Disneyland... but, due to the “stomach ache”, it now has to be cancelled. Suddenly, the 8-year-old is up doing chores (trying to show that he’s all better now). And, grandma tsk-tsk’s the parents.

grandma is a real bitch :flap:

[hawaiiansteeler]

James Harrison reveals unsuspected source of communication breakdowns

By: James Kelly

After laying bare his thoughts about Mike Tomlin’s coaching style concerning team discipline and accountability on Undisputed, James Harrison delved more deeply into defensive issues that have undermined Steelers’ efforts to return to the Super Bowl since 2010.

“To be honest with you, we need to play better defense,” Harrison said, “[We] need to get better on the defensive side of the ball. Like I said, you have the best offense in the NFL, in my opinion, over there with the offensive side. So to me, you gotta get better on defense and, you know, just do everything better.”

Asked Thursday on The Herd with Colin Cowherd whether Mike Tomlin is ‘a little loose’ in managing specific details during games, Harrison replied:

“I feel like it needs to be more disciplined, some of the things that they do coaching wise. I feel like some of the situations we were in…as far as time management, calling of defenses. We had a situation where we had double-called defenses because, you know, one thing was said and then someone said something else. You’ve got half the defense playing one defense, the other half playing something else. So, you get situations out there where it looks bad, like this guy doesn’t know what he’s doing. Well, he’s just playing a different defense possibly on that play than what the other half of the defense was playing.”

to read rest of article:

https://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2018/07/21/james-harrison-reveals-unsuspected-source-of-communication-breakdowns/

[Cyphon25]

Seriously? Who did it better, Porter of Harrison debate? For the Steelers it was Harrison, and there is no debate, IMO. Porter could have been an all time great Steeler but ended up changing teams. Porter had a good career in Miami, but did he ever reach the same level of awesome as Harrison did? Sack numbers look great on a stat sheet but Harrison played the position better for what this defense needed. What if for Porter in the long term...???

Yeah it is a legitimate debate. As far as specifically Steelers it would have been nice if he finished his career with us but regardless he was a great LB and more or less on par with Harrison. Like I said, Porter was the better cover guy and Harrison was better against the run. As far as pass rush it is pretty close. So it isn't as if this discussion is so cut and dry. Particularly if we are talking todays NFL I think you definitely take Porter because he is better in space.

On top of that the majority of Porters career was with the Steelers and they were all good years for us. And as far as him being an all-time Steeler well, the fans thought he belonged in 07. He was voted to the all-time Steelers team as an LB along with Ham, Lambert, Lloyd, and Russel.

Heck, I am not even trying to take a side here but I think it is crazy to just automatically say Deebo was better. It is definitely worth a discussion.

[st33lersguy]

Harrison wants to continue to run his mouth. I guess he knows his legacy is tainted by his selfish antics and figures might as well continue to run his mouth

[Mojouw]

In a perfect world, a 3-4 team would always have a Porter and a Harrison style OLB to deploy as bookends. Overlapping but complementary skill sets. I think they are different enough that they can both be put on the same level.

In m ty lifetime it has been Lloyd, Greene, Porter, and Harrison that set the benchmarks for all other Steelers OLB to be evaluated. Who is the best? No idea. Not even sure what method to use. I guess if we went by league wide terror instilled it would be Harrison and Greene and then the other two?

[Cyphon25]

In a perfect world, a 3-4 team would always have a Porter and a Harrison style OLB to deploy as bookends. Overlapping but complementary skill sets. I think they are different enough that they can both be put on the same level.

In m ty lifetime it has been Lloyd, Greene, Porter, and Harrison that set the benchmarks for all other Steelers OLB to be evaluated. Who is the best? No idea. Not even sure what method to use. I guess if we went by league wide terror instilled it would be Harrison and Greene and then the other two?

Interesting take. Because of his demeanor I would have guessed Lloyd was more feared than Greene (unless you mean tougher to stop?) but my memory of those days are a bit more fuzzy than of the more recent guys. What is funny is you say "overlapping but complimentary skillsets" and I think you could add in personality to that. Harrison was all intimidation through silence and Porter was an absolute loudmouth who tried to get in your head.

Also I agree with your list of 4. Those are the 4 guys for me that would be the measuring sticks.

[86WARD]

James Harrison reveals unsuspected source of communication breakdowns

“I feel like it needs to be more disciplined, some of the things that they do coaching wise. I feel like some of the situations we were in…as far as time management, calling of defenses. We had a situation where we had double-called defenses because, you know, one thing was said and then someone said something else. You’ve got half the defense playing one defense, the other half playing something else. So, you get situations out there where it looks bad, like this guy doesn’t know what he’s doing. Well, he’s just playing a different defense possibly on that play than what the other half of the defense was playing.”

to read rest of article:

https://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2018/07/21/james-harrison-reveals-unsuspected-source-of-communication-breakdowns/

This isn't surprising at all. At times, the defense does look like its playing two totally different defenses. Communication, time management and "on field discipline" have been shaky at best at times for Pittsburgh.

[vader29]

I think people sometimes forget how good Porter was and he is kind of written out (at least a little) when it comes to Steelers greats. I know there is more than stats but here is a comparison:

Sacks - JP 98 > JH 84.5 (single season JP 17.5 > JH 16)
Force Fumbles - JH 34 > JP 26
INT - JP 12 > JH 8
PD - JP 50 > JH 25
Tackles - JH 793 > JP 667
JP - 4x Probowl, 2x 1st Team AP, 2x 2nd Team AP, 2000's All Decade Team
JH - 5x Probowl, 2x 1st Team AP, 2x 2nd Team AP, DPotY

Harrison played like 6 more career games than Porter. So what you see is both were great blitzers with Porter arguably being better given the numbers. Harrison was stronger against the run and racked up more tackles while Porter was the better cover guy.

SID (Shot in Denver) - JP 1 > JH 0

:chuckle:

[tom444]

Harrison wants to continue to run his mouth. I guess he knows his legacy is tainted by his selfish antics and figures might as well continue to run his mouth

Or he's looking for a job on TV.

[Born2Steel]

I think people sometimes forget how good Porter was and he is kind of written out (at least a little) when it comes to Steelers greats. I know there is more than stats but here is a comparison:

Sacks - JP 98 > JH 84.5 (single season JP 17.5 > JH 16)
Force Fumbles - JH 34 > JP 26
INT - JP 12 > JH 8
PD - JP 50 > JH 25
Tackles - JH 793 > JP 667
JP - 4x Probowl, 2x 1st Team AP, 2x 2nd Team AP, 2000's All Decade Team
JH - 5x Probowl, 2x 1st Team AP, 2x 2nd Team AP, DPotY

Harrison played like 6 more career games than Porter. So what you see is both were great blitzers with Porter arguably being better given the numbers. Harrison was stronger against the run and racked up more tackles while Porter was the better cover guy.

These stats are all good and fun. But when you talk with Steeler fans, Harrison is far ahead of Porter as the more beloved player. In Steelers lore Harrison ranks higher. That is what I meant by "it's no debate". Deebo was the hard hat, lunch pail, put in the work and let your play do the talking Steeler LB. Porter was awesome in his own right. But as a Steeler, it's James hands down.

[teegre]

James Harrison’s 100-yard pick-six is one of the greatest plays in NFL history.

[hawaiiansteeler]

James Harrison’s 100-yard pick-six is one of the greatest plays in NFL history.

:iagree:

[DesertSteel]

James Harrison’s 100-yard pick-six is one of the greatest plays in NFL history.
Two of the greatest plays in NFL history in the same game, by Steelers! Still incredible to think about.

[teegre]

Two of the greatest plays in NFL history in the same game, by Steelers! Still incredible to think about.

As Al Michael’s has avered for years: Best. Super Bowl. Ever!!!

[Dwinsgames]

James Harrison’s 100-yard pick-six is the greatest play in NFL history.


fixed it for you

[Cyphon25]

These stats are all good and fun. But when you talk with Steeler fans, Harrison is far ahead of Porter as the more beloved player. In Steelers lore Harrison ranks higher. That is what I meant by "it's no debate". Deebo was the hard hat, lunch pail, put in the work and let your play do the talking Steeler LB. Porter was awesome in his own right. But as a Steeler, it's James hands down.

Oh yeah if we are talking popularity I don't doubt Harrison would win. He has one of the great plays in NFL history to his name, there is a recency bias because he is the more current player, and on top of that Porter is a coach now and with the LB's not producing at a high level that doesn't make him too popular a guy around town either.

I was mainly talking about a pure talent perspective.


James Harrison’s 100-yard pick-six is one of the greatest plays in NFL history.

No doubt. Hard to believe it was (arguably) topped by a play later in that same game.

[hawaiiansteeler]

fixed it for you

I understand your reasoning but I'll still go with the Immaculate Reception over the Immaculate Interception...

[Dwinsgames]

Oh yeah if we are talking popularity I don't doubt Harrison would win. He has one of the great plays in NFL history to his name, there is a recency bias because he is the more current player, and on top of that Porter is a coach now and with the LB's not producing at a high level that doesn't make him too popular a guy around town either.

I was mainly talking about a pure talent perspective.



No doubt. Hard to believe it was (arguably) topped by a play later in that same game.


I can recall far to many times Porter getting tangled up with a long armed tackle and not being able to shrug him ...

I can count on 1 hand how many times I witnessed that happening to Harrison ......................................

for me personally now way Holmes TD catch was anything near as spectacular as the INT return for a TD , it may have been more decisive ( game winning catch ) but one could easily argue without Harrison's its nothing more than garbage time keep it interesting score ... again thats just my perspective

- - - Updated - - -


I understand your reasoning but I'll still go with the Immaculate Reception over the Immaculate Interception...

touche ....

that debate could be one for the ages

[Cyphon25]

I can recall far to many times Porter getting tangled up with a long armed tackle and not being able to shrug him ...

I can count on 1 hand how many times I witnessed that happening to Harrison ......................................

And yet Porter still had more sacks in less games.

I think some of it is just perception and style of play. Harrison is 6'0 feet and just pure power. One of the strongest bull rushers to ever play the game. He could get low easily on taller tackles and basically just bench press them backward. Porter was 6'3 and had more finesse. Of course he also had power but not like Harrison does/did.


for me personally now way Holmes TD catch was anything near as spectacular as the INT return for a TD , it may have been more decisive ( game winning catch ) but one could easily argue without Harrison's its nothing more than garbage time keep it interesting score ... again thats just my perspective

No way of knowing really. Even without the INT do they just end up with a FG? What happens after? Way too many what ifs to ever know. Harrison made the tougher play given his position and athleticism requirements but ultimately Holmes play was more significant. Just glad we got both in the same game.

[Dwinsgames]

And yet Porter still had more sacks in less games.

I think some of it is just perception and style of play. Harrison is 6'0 feet and just pure power. One of the strongest bull rushers to ever play the game. He could get low easily on taller tackles and basically just bench press them backward. Porter was 6'3 and had more finesse. Of course he also had power but not like Harrison does/did.



No way of knowing really. Even without the INT do they just end up with a FG? What happens after? Way too many what ifs to ever know. Harrison made the tougher play given his position and athleticism requirements but ultimately Holmes play was more significant. Just glad we got both in the same game.


sacks are great and the thing most look at ... but hits take their toll ... would be interesting to know those numbers

[Butch]

No way of knowing really. Even without the INT do they just end up with a FG? What happens after? Way too many what ifs to ever know. Harrison made the tougher play given his position and athleticism requirements but ultimately Holmes play was more significant. Just glad we got both in the same game.

If James doesn't drop back in coverage instead of rushing the Warner (which is what he was supposed to do), that would have been a Touchdown easily. So James not only intercepted but he read the play and acted on what he thought was about to take place.

I am not saying one play was better than the other. We don't win without either of them. I would argue that the MVP should have been 3 players who were very clutch. Ben, James and Santonio.

[Iron Steeler]

I agree with Harrison. A lot of what he said confirms my previous beliefs on Tomlin.

[teegre]

Harrison’s 100-yard INT/TD vs. Santonio’s game-winning TD:

Santonio’s catch won the game, which should give it the advantage. That said, my visceral reaction to Harrison’s INT/TD was like nothing else I’ve ever experienced. I lost my effing mind!!! :lol: My heart still pounds just thinking about it.


NOTE: I wasn’t around for the Immaculate Reception. I acknowledge it’s significance, but for me, it’s Harrison’s INT/TD “all the way” (literally and figuratively).

[DesertSteel]

Harrison’s 100-yard INT/TD vs. Santonio’s game-winning TD:

Santonio’s catch won the game, which should give it the advantage. That said, my visceral reaction to Harrison’s INT/TD was like nothing else I’ve ever experienced. I lost my effing mind!!! :lol: My heart still pounds just thinking about it.


NOTE: I wasn’t around for the Immaculate Reception. I acknowledge it’s significance, but for me, it’s Harrison’s INT/TD “all the way” (literally and figuratively).

Could you imagine if Harrison's INT/TD was at the end of the game to to win it? It would be hands down the greatest play in NFL history.

[Cyphon25]

It is a tough call but I have to go with the catch. Put it like this, Harrisons play was fantastic to watch and experience but if we lose the game it is ultimately meaningless. It is only because of the catch that it has the meaning it does. That catch got us our 6th SB ring.

[teegre]

Could you imagine if Harrison's INT/TD was at the end of the game to to win it? It would be hands down the greatest play in NFL history.

I’d be dead. Really.

Let me frame it this way:
At the end of the most recent Bengals-Steelers playoff game, I jumped over a wall and landed on the kitchen table, cracking a rib. When AB stretched out to get that TD to beat the Ravens, I high-fived my brother so hard, I knocked him over, and my head-rush from jumping up left me dizzy for about 30 seconds.

So, if what you typed above had happened... I might have spontaneously combusted. :lol:

[DesertSteel]

^^ I'd love to see highlights of that! LOL

[Dwinsgames]

It is a tough call but I have to go with the catch. Put it like this, Harrisons play was fantastic to watch and experience but if we lose the game it is ultimately meaningless. It is only because of the catch that it has the meaning it does. That catch got us our 6th SB ring.

you can just as easily flip that logic ....

without the int return that catch isnt anything but another stat in a close game LOSS

[Butch]

you can just as easily flip that logic ....

without the int return that catch isnt anything but another stat in a close game LOSS

Beat me to it.

If James does what he is assigned to do and rush the QB that's an easy TD. His dropping into coverage was brilliant and the return was completely nuts.

[86WARD]

Beat me to it.

If James does what he is assigned to do and rush the QB that's an easy TD. His dropping into coverage was brilliant and the return was completely nuts.

Not to mention, that took an immense amount of wind out or Arizona’s momentum that was building.

[Cyphon25]

you can just as easily flip that logic ....

without the int return that catch isnt anything but another stat in a close game LOSS

No you can't because that was the first half of the game. Nobody can say what happens after that for the rest of the game. Maybe if Arizona scores the Steelers go in at halftime and have one of those "we can't let them do this to us" moments.

One factually won us the game, the other we can just guess and project at what it would have ultimately meant.

[Dwinsgames]

No you can't because that was the first half of the game. Nobody can say what happens after that for the rest of the game. Maybe if Arizona scores the Steelers go in at halftime and have one of those "we can't let them do this to us" moments.

One factually won us the game, the other we can just guess and project at what it would have ultimately meant.


I don't subscribe to that sorry ...

if Harrison does not pick that pass off the Cards score points on that drive the only things we do not know for certain is if it is 3 or 7 ...that said if Harrison does not abandon the pass rush and drop the guy is wide open for a 4 yard catch and score I just don't see him screwing that up so I will say 7 points ...

at that juncture they could as easily ( and more likely ) get down on themselves and get blown out taking chances ....

[Cyphon25]

I don't subscribe to that sorry ...

if Harrison does not pick that pass off the Cards score points on that drive the only things we do not know for certain is if it is 3 or 7 ...that said if Harrison does not abandon the pass rush and drop the guy is wide open for a 4 yard catch and score I just don't see him screwing that up so I will say 7 points ...

at that juncture they could as easily ( and more likely ) get down on themselves and get blown out taking chances ....

There is no subscribing to anything. It is facts vs opinion. The fact is Santonio Holmes made a game winning TD catch. Harrison made a great play who's impact can only be guessed at because it was only the first half.

I seem to remember a playoff game where the Ravens came into Pittsburgh and were whooping on us 21-7 going into halftime including them having a fumble return TD. We had no game changing play in the first half or any such thing. Turns out it didn't matter, we came out of the half and put it on them.

Point is, there is no telling what individual plays mean so early in the game. It was great for us sure, but what it ultimately meant we can never know. So we can debate which one we liked more, was more impressive, etc etc....What isn't debateable is impact. One clearly won the game, the other was just a fantastic play.


Edit: Reading this back it sounds kind of aggressive to me for some reason. Just want to note I am not being aggressive lol.

[Dwinsgames]

There is no subscribing to anything. It is facts vs opinion. The fact is Santonio Holmes made a game winning TD catch. Harrison made a great play who's impact can only be guessed at because it was only the first half.

I seem to remember a playoff game where the Ravens came into Pittsburgh and were whooping on us 21-7 going into halftime including them having a fumble return TD. We had no game changing play in the first half or any such thing. Turns out it didn't matter, we came out of the half and put it on them.

Point is, there is no telling what individual plays mean so early in the game. It was great for us sure, but what it ultimately meant we can never know. So we can debate which one we liked more, was more impressive, etc etc....What isn't debateable is impact. One clearly won the game, the other was just a fantastic play.


Edit: Reading this back it sounds kind of aggressive to me for some reason. Just want to note I am not being aggressive lol.


agree to disagree man

[Craic]

I don't subscribe to that sorry ...

if Harrison does not pick that pass off the Cards score points on that drive the only things we do not know for certain is if it is 3 or 7 ...that said if Harrison does not abandon the pass rush and drop the guy is wide open for a 4 yard catch and score I just don't see him screwing that up so I will say 7 points ...

at that juncture they could as easily ( and more likely ) get down on themselves and get blown out taking chances ....
The statistics for that season just does not bear that out.

Week 2, -10 points at half time. We win in OT 23-20
Week 3, -1 point fourth quarter. We win 26-21
Week 11, -2 half time, we win 11-10
Week 13, -7 (6:48, second quarter). We win against the Patriots, 33-10
Week 14, -10 end of third quarter. We win 20-13
Week 15, -9 end of third quarter. We win 13-9

That year, we lost four games. At half time we were down no more than 4 points at halftime in any of those games.

At half time in the SB, had the Cardinals scored a TD, the score would have been 14-10 Cards. Looking back through the history of this season, the Steelers made up deficits basically twice that amount or more, four times. Two of those times were in the fourth quarter alone.

So, based on that history, there is very little reason to suspect they'd get "down on themselves" and then "get blown out taking chances." In fact, the history shows just the opposite—it's likely they would have come back and won the game.

[Dwinsgames]

The statistics for that season just does not bear that out.

Week 2, -10 points at half time. We win in OT 23-20
Week 3, -1 point fourth quarter. We win 26-21
Week 11, -2 half time, we win 11-10
Week 13, -7 (6:48, second quarter). We win against the Patriots, 33-10
Week 14, -10 end of third quarter. We win 20-13
Week 15, -9 end of third quarter. We win 13-9

That year, we lost four games. At half time we were down no more than 4 points at halftime in any of those games.

At half time in the SB, had the Cardinals scored a TD, the score would have been 14-10 Cards. Looking back through the history of this season, the Steelers made up deficits basically twice that amount or more, four times. Two of those times were in the fourth quarter alone.

So, based on that history, there is very little reason to suspect they'd get "down on themselves" and then "get blown out taking chances." In fact, the history shows just the opposite—it's likely they would have come back and won the game.

I see it as take 7 off our score and add 7 to theirs ... at that point they win ...Harrison is / was that 14 point turnaround

[pczach]

I always marvel at how everyone talks about Harrison's play and Santonio's catch, but never mention Ben taking them 90 yards. Also, Ben made a perfect throw to Santonio on the play before "The Catch" that should have won the game. The pass went right through Santonio's hands. Ben comes back to him and makes another ridiculous throw to win it on the next play.

Everyone seems to forget about his 2 game-winning throws.

[Mojouw]

I always marvel at how everyone talks about Harrison's play and Santonio's catch, but never mention Ben taking them 90 yards. Also, Ben made a perfect throw to Santonio on the play before "The Catch" that should have won the game. The pass went right through Santonio's hands. Ben comes back to him and makes another ridiculous throw to win it on the next play.

Everyone seems to forget about his 2 game-winning throws.

Not only the throws, but the vintage "Ben does things that cover up for the offensive line and other stuff like penalties" that kept that drive moving. I think there were at least two significant holding and false-start penalties. A bunch of only sorta blocked pass-rushers, etc, etc...

[tube517]

I always marvel at how everyone talks about Harrison's play and Santonio's catch, but never mention Ben taking them 90 yards. Also, Ben made a perfect throw to Santonio on the play before "The Catch" that should have won the game. The pass went right through Santonio's hands. Ben comes back to him and makes another ridiculous throw to win it on the next play.

Everyone seems to forget about his 2 game-winning throws.

Why? Ben doesn't prepare as much as Sir Peyton.... Also, Ben is a schoolyard game manager and was carried by Mewelde Moore that year. :sarcasm: :chuckle:

[Butch]

The statistics for that season just does not bear that out.

Week 2, -10 points at half time. We win in OT 23-20
Week 3, -1 point fourth quarter. We win 26-21
Week 11, -2 half time, we win 11-10
Week 13, -7 (6:48, second quarter). We win against the Patriots, 33-10
Week 14, -10 end of third quarter. We win 20-13
Week 15, -9 end of third quarter. We win 13-9

That year, we lost four games. At half time we were down no more than 4 points at halftime in any of those games.

At half time in the SB, had the Cardinals scored a TD, the score would have been 14-10 Cards. Looking back through the history of this season, the Steelers made up deficits basically twice that amount or more, four times. Two of those times were in the fourth quarter alone.

So, based on that history, there is very little reason to suspect they'd get "down on themselves" and then "get blown out taking chances." In fact, the history shows just the opposite—it's likely they would have come back and won the game.

1. Interesting but what were the stats on Dec 23 1972 with 22 seconds to go on a 4th and forever play between the Steelers and the Raiders?
2. What were the odds when the J.E.T.S. took on the colts in SBIII?
3. What were the stats in 1969 World series not only game 7 but over all? Yankees vs Pirates
4. what were the over whelming stats in the 1980s when a team of college players took on the Soviet Union in a game of hockey?

While these illustrate what can happen and are not the norm...but they do happen.

[Butch]

There is no subscribing to anything. It is facts vs opinion. The fact is Santonio Holmes made a game winning TD catch. Harrison made a great play who's impact can only be guessed at because it was only the first half.

I seem to remember a playoff game where the Ravens came into Pittsburgh and were whooping on us 21-7 going into halftime including them having a fumble return TD. We had no game changing play in the first half or any such thing. Turns out it didn't matter, we came out of the half and put it on them.

Point is, there is no telling what individual plays mean so early in the game. It was great for us sure, but what it ultimately meant we can never know. So we can debate which one we liked more, was more impressive, etc etc....What isn't debateable is impact. One clearly won the game, the other was just a fantastic play.


Edit: Reading this back it sounds kind of aggressive to me for some reason. Just want to note I am not being aggressive lol.

If you are sticking to facts then stick with facts. Nobody can say if we win or lose when you take away a touchdown and give them a score, and that's what you are suggesting by taking away Jame's Touchdown.

James diagnosed a very important play and it resulted in a Major score that helped to setup the game winner.

The what if's lead down a rabbit hole that goes very deep.

- - - Updated - - -


I always marvel at how everyone talks about Harrison's play and Santonio's catch, but never mention Ben taking them 90 yards. Also, Ben made a perfect throw to Santonio on the play before "The Catch" that should have won the game. The pass went right through Santonio's hands. Ben comes back to him and makes another ridiculous throw to win it on the next play.

Everyone seems to forget about his 2 game-winning throws.

I agree Ben was absolutely clutch as I stated earlier their easily could have been 3 MVPs. Classic Ben

[Cyphon25]

If you are sticking to facts then stick with facts. Nobody can say if we win or lose when you take away a touchdown and give them a score, and that's what you are suggesting by taking away Jame's Touchdown.

James diagnosed a very important play and it resulted in a Major score that helped to setup the game winner.

The what if's lead down a rabbit hole that goes very deep.

You have the wrong guy. I have been saying the whole time that we shouldn't play the what if game. The argument has been "if Harrison doesn't get that INT we lose that game" and my whole point has been "how could we ever know that?".

What we do know is Santonio Holmes made the game winning TD catch. That isn't up for debate.

[Butch]

There is no subscribing to anything. It is facts vs opinion. The fact is Santonio Holmes made a game winning TD catch. Harrison made a great play who's impact can only be guessed at because it was only the first half.

I seem to remember a playoff game where the Ravens came into Pittsburgh and were whooping on us 21-7 going into halftime including them having a fumble return TD. We had no game changing play in the first half or any such thing. Turns out it didn't matter, we came out of the half and put it on them.

Point is, there is no telling what individual plays mean so early in the game. It was great for us sure, but what it ultimately meant we can never know. So we can debate which one we liked more, was more impressive, etc etc....What isn't debateable is impact. One clearly won the game, the other was just a fantastic play.


Edit: Reading this back it sounds kind of aggressive to me for some reason. Just want to note I am not being aggressive lol.

Actually we do know what it meant and it doesn't matter when in the game it happened. It helped to setup what was eventually the game winning score by Santonio.

This is where I see you 'what if'. Without it you insinuate that we still may have won and that is possible but not a fact it's a maybe or even what if.

[Dwinsgames]

Actually we do know what it meant and it doesn't matter when in the game it happened. It helped to setup what was eventually the game winning score by Santonio.

This is where I see you 'what if'. Without it you insinuate that we still may have won and that is possible but not a fact it's a maybe or even what if.


exactly ...

here is how I see it ... if we would have won anyways then why was the Santonio catch the game winner and not some other play prior to it ? ( answer because without both plays we did not do enough to win the game as it played out ) and as it played out is the ONLY definitive thing in the mix ...

without the INT return for a TD the Santonio catch is just a catch to make the game close in the end ... because the only thing different that actually happened is Harrison's INT took points away from the Cards and Gave points to the Steelers ..

where else in that game do you acquire the time for another drive ? there isnt any because that INT return ended the half and if he rushes its likely a TD for the Cards ( the man is wide open had it not been for Harrison 4 yards away for a TD )

could we have called different plays in any of the second half drives that changed the result sure we could have but come on man we are talking about Haley creating something better than what he did ( not likely ) ...or it would have happened in the prior drives and we would have been up and kicked a FG instead of forcing the ball in the end zone where it took a perfect pass from Ben to get the Win

[DesertSteel]

Not only the throws, but the vintage "Ben does things that cover up for the offensive line and other stuff like penalties" that kept that drive moving. I think there were at least two significant holding and false-start penalties. A bunch of only sorta blocked pass-rushers, etc, etc...
Yeah that drive is what set me up for heartbreak against the Packers lol.

[Mojouw]

Yeah that drive is what set me up for heartbreak against the Packers lol.

Me too! I will always believe that if the available WR corps at the end of that game had been more experienced, Ben pulls another rabbit out of his hat and the Steelers win out.

[Cyphon25]

Actually we do know what it meant and it doesn't matter when in the game it happened. It helped to setup what was eventually the game winning score by Santonio.

This is where I see you 'what if'. Without it you insinuate that we still may have won and that is possible but not a fact it's a maybe or even what if.

You are missing the point. We have the result so we can say for a fact the Santonio Holmes won the game. We can't say with any certainty what happens if Harrison doesn't get that pick. Does the guy drop the pass? Does he catch it? If he does drop it what happens next? Point being, people are trying to say if Harrison doesn't get the pick we lose but how can anyone possily know that?

So back to the original message, you can like the Harrison play better but the Holmes one was more important as it resulted in a SB victory.

[Craic]

I see it as take 7 off our score and add 7 to theirs ... at that point they win ...Harrison is / was that 14 point turnaround

Except that it was at half time, and it only puts the Steelers down by four points. That difference means perhaps one or two decision are made differently in the second half by both teams, which can drastically affect the score. So, since it can, I went back to see what happened in that year usually in those situations, and usually, the Steelers come back and win. So it really is not as simple as removing points from one side of the ledger and adding it to the other.

That being said, Cyph is also wrong. You can't say Harrison's catch is less important simply because it wasn't the final catch of the game. The way the game did play out, Santo could only have that opportunity because Harrison made his catch and TD. Again, that doesn't make Harrison's more important because of what I wrote above.

In the end, I give the nod to Holmes because it was more impressive when it comes to pressure, the let down of having a ball just slip through his hands, the workmanlike effort he put out on that entire drive, and the talent and presence it took for that toe-tap at the end. But that can't take away from Harrison's TD, either.

[Butch]

Saying that one play was more important than the other based on what could happen if the other play did not take place is minimalizing what did take place. We are fortunate enough that both plays took place and BOTH plays helped to win the game. You can try using stats or say 'What ifs' but we know the results as they are so there is no reason to use either of those, what happened happened.

While I can give Craic some credit in stating his opinion i don't agree. Just as there was pressure on Holmes there was also pressure on James. James had to see the play and diagnose it and not being a receiver had to catch the ball and make it to the endzone 101 yards away without being tackled. At one point someone was trying to take the ball from him and he had to direct him to block.

I personally loved both plays and both players for what they did. Funny because of the way both players left the team. I also give Major credit to Ben and again why I think he is the Best QB who never gets the credit he deserves.

[Count Steeler]

Perhaps the most impactful play of that game is Woodley's sack fumble of Warner after the Holmes' TD. Without that play we may still be on 5 rings.

The later a play occurs, the more impact it has. A TD is a TD, but a TD in the 4th quarter with 40 seconds remaining and giving you a lead is a lot more impactful than a TD in the second quarter, even though the 2nd quarter TD was also a spectacular play. And, unfortunately, without Woodley's sack fumble, those 2 plays may have gone down as the 2 best plays by the losing team in a Super Bowl.

[Cyphon25]

That being said, Cyph is also wrong. You can't say Harrison's catch is less important simply because it wasn't the final catch of the game. The way the game did play out, Santo could only have that opportunity because Harrison made his catch and TD. Again, that doesn't make Harrison's more important because of what I wrote above.

You can say it because one was the game winning TD catch. So unless the argument is that random TD's in a game are > game winning TD catches (which is ridiculous) then there is no argument to be made.

And once again, we can't say that Holmes only had that opportunity because of Harrisons play. Nobody knows what would have happened had Harrison not made that play. You are playing the what if game just like Dwins.

I get what you are trying to say but knowing the results clears it all up for us. Santonio had the game winner and Harrison got us some points. I still say Harrisons was probably the more impressive, but the more important goes to Holmes.


Perhaps the most impactful play of that game is Woodley's sack fumble of Warner after the Holmes' TD. Without that play we may still be on 5 rings.

The later a play occurs, the more impact it has. A TD is a TD, but a TD in the 4th quarter with 40 seconds remaining and giving you a lead is a lot more impactful than a TD in the second quarter, even though the 2nd quarter TD was also a spectacular play. And, unfortunately, without Woodley's sack fumble, those 2 plays may have gone down as the 2 best plays by the losing team in a Super Bowl.

Interesting point.

Looking back at it the Cards were out of timeouts and down by 4 and when the sack came I think there was something like 5-10 seconds left. I am pretty confident they weren't winning but I guess you do never know. Especially the way Fitz had been eating us up. In fact, he is the forgotten guy because his team lost. His performance would have stacked up nicely in SB history if they had won. 7 catches for 127 yards and 2 TD's.

[Dwinsgames]

AB doesn't seem to have a problem with Harrison

1034551517905387521

[pczach]

I wonder if Harrison will ever talk about how Bill Belichick would treat him if he pulled the shit he did in the Steelers' locker room in good ole' Bill's locker room?

Do you think he could get anywhere near the facilities again in his lifetime?

:coffee:

[teegre]

AB doesn't seem to have a problem with Harrison

AB has no problem with Le’Veon Bell, either...

[86WARD]

AB doesn't seem to have a problem with Harrison

1034551517905387521

Neither should anyone else.

[st33lersguy]

Neither should anyone else.

Yeah no one else should have a problem with a traitor who caused locker room drama, quit on his team, and acted like a jackass. I guess eagle fan as shouldn't have a problem with t.o. and the way he destroyed that locker room either

[steel striker]

I always marvel at how everyone talks about Harrison's play and Santonio's catch, but never mention Ben taking them 90 yards. Also, Ben made a perfect throw to Santonio on the play before "The Catch" that should have won the game. The pass went right through Santonio's hands. Ben comes back to him and makes another ridiculous throw to win it on the next play.

Everyone seems to forget about his 2 game-winning throws.

Yes it always seems that Ben never get proper credit for that winning super bowl drive that was pretty amazing.