Should we be considering signing Lawrence Timmons?

[hawaiiansteeler]

Ex-Steelers LB, and Free Agent, Lawrence Timmons staying positive back in South Carolina

Could a healthy L.T. follow in James Harrison’s footsteps by returning to Pittsburgh to help bolster the Steelers at linebacker?

By Bill Dundas Jun 9, 2018

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/LaeoJd4cYLJZ061zPAnbM3FmuHE=/0x0:2440x3384/920x613/filters:focal(970x740:1360x1130)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/60005163/usa_today_9789280.0.jpg

It’s no secret that the Pittsburgh Steelers have some significant questions at the inside linebacker position as they look forward to the opening of their summer training camp. And the Steelers’ organization has at least some history of bringing back players who have excelled for them in the past. That’s why the availability of a healthy and rested Lawrence Timmons poses some intriguing questions for the Steelers’ coaches and front office.

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https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2018/6/9/17433800/ex-steelers-lb-and-free-agent-lawrence-timmons-staying-positive-back-in-south-carolina-rumors-news

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

very possible either Timmons or Bowman are signed as veteran presence IMO.

[steelreserve]

Well, we didn't have depth before and we still don't have any depth now, so it would make sense. At least it doesn't seem like we'd be counting on him to be the starter.

[Mojouw]

FWIW, I would rather bet on a young kid like the UDFA out of FSU or seeing if someone shakes loose during training camps.

Bowman and Timmons are on the downside of their careers and offer diminishing returns.

Plus I really don't see either guy wanting to take non-starter money to come and play either rotational snaps or a full back-up role behind VW, Bostic, and one of the safeties.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

FWIW, I would rather bet on a young kid like the UDFA out of FSU or seeing if someone shakes loose during training camps.

Bowman and Timmons are on the downside of their careers and offer diminishing returns.

Plus I really don't see either guy wanting to take non-starter money to come and play either rotational snaps or a full back-up role behind VW, Bostic, and one of the safeties.

The kid from FSU is a gifted athlete, who has a questionable play speed and intensity. Has 41" vertical, but doesn't play downhill. Essentially, he may be the Dan McCullers of ILB in that he "looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane".

I'd rather take a guy that has been to a pro bowl on the downside of his career as insurance, rather than a guy that will be driving a UPS delivery truck in a couple years.

[Cyphon25]

No we shouldn't. He doesn't offer anything that we don't already have at the position.

Go younger with upside and take a chance.

[Craic]

The kid from FSU is a gifted athlete, who has a questionable play speed and intensity. Has 41" vertical, but doesn't play downhill. Essentially, he may be the Dan McCullers of ILB in that he "looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane".

I'd rather take a guy that has been to a pro bowl on the downside of his career as insurance, rather than a guy that will be driving a UPS delivery truck in a couple years.
I agree. Much rather have a guy come in who already knows the locker room and the culture.

[Mojouw]

But Timmons offers almost no upside as a player.

In 14 games last season he had 84 tackles, no sacks, no forced fumbles, no INTS, and according to more than one report struggling in the run game. PFF graded him as the #67 LB in the league.

In 14 games last season, Bostic had 97 tackles and a sack while earning PFF's #12 LB grade against the run.

In 16 games last season, VW had 8 sacks and an INT.

On a spectrum of Sean Spence ------ FSU UDFA -------- Matekavich -------- Bostic ------------ VW, 2018 Lawrence Timmons falls somewhere between Spence and Matekavich. At this point, Timmons has zero "upside" this kid from FSU is all upside. He has no draft cost. He has almost no cap hit. And he almost by definition has to be better than Sean Spence.

Lawrence Timmons was one of my favorite players for a long long time. But he is simply old, a step slow, and not getting much better any time soon.

Father Time remains undefeated.

[BlackAndGold]

https://media.giphy.com/media/VKtsOAHDx1Luo/200.gif

[Craic]

But Timmons offers almost no upside as a player.

In 14 games last season he had 84 tackles, no sacks, no forced fumbles, no INTS, and according to more than one report struggling in the run game. PFF graded him as the #67 LB in the league.

In 14 games last season, Bostic had 97 tackles and a sack while earning PFF's #12 LB grade against the run.

In 16 games last season, VW had 8 sacks and an INT.

On a spectrum of Sean Spence ------ FSU UDFA -------- Matekavich -------- Bostic ------------ VW, 2018 Lawrence Timmons falls somewhere between Spence and Matekavich. At this point, Timmons has zero "upside" this kid from FSU is all upside. He has no draft cost. He has almost no cap hit. And he almost by definition has to be better than Sean Spence.

Lawrence Timmons was one of my favorite players for a long long time. But he is simply old, a step slow, and not getting much better any time soon.

Father Time remains undefeated.

Timmons also walked into a new situation and an entirely different defensive scheme: the wide 9. He was also expected to come in and compete as a starter. Neither of those are true for the Steelers. He'd be coming back into a defense he knows, even with the changes they're making. He'd also be coming in to back up other players. So, at his age, he can go in spurts and then let his body rest. If we were talking about filling a starting position, I'd say no way. But, we're not. We're talking about filling a backup position with a player who has experience and knowledge and also will go through almost zero adjustments to playing in Pittsburgh.

[Mojouw]

Timmons also walked into a new situation and an entirely different defensive scheme: the wide 9. He was also expected to come in and compete as a starter. Neither of those are true for the Steelers. He'd be coming back into a defense he knows, even with the changes they're making. He'd also be coming in to back up other players. So, at his age, he can go in spurts and then let his body rest. If we were talking about filling a starting position, I'd say no way. But, we're not. We're talking about filling a backup position with a player who has experience and knowledge and also will go through almost zero adjustments to playing in Pittsburgh.

Those are solid arguments and can't just be dismissed.

For me, it will always come down to a combination of youth and upside in these types of decisions. Especially for back-ups.

It is why I would keep Rudolph and Dobbs and let Landry Jones go.

It is why in a year I might let Haden and Burnett go and roll with the young DBs.

I realize this can make a team susceptible to injury and maybe have a locker-room that is young and callow. But, I'm always going to make a bet on a younger player getting better than an older player halting the slide.

[ALLD]

The team can give them a tryout to see if there is anything left in the tank or if they are bench decorations.

[st33lersguy]

Yeah they should. Veteran guy, familiar with the system, can provide veteran leadership. Unless you are absolutely certain that at least 2 of the following between a free agent journeyman with an unspectacular 5 year career, rookie udfa, 3rd year 7th rounder who hasn't shown much of anything outside of special teams can step up (and I'm not sure how you can be certain of that), would be smart to bring him in

[Cyphon25]

He'd be coming back into a defense he knows, even with the changes they're making. He'd also be coming in to back up other players. So, at his age, he can go in spurts and then let his body rest. If we were talking about filling a starting position, I'd say no way. But, we're not. We're talking about filling a backup position with a player who has experience and knowledge and also will go through almost zero adjustments to playing in Pittsburgh.

In fairness all of these things were basically true of Sean Spence as well and he failed miserably.

I think if they want a veteran guy like that they should just bring back Moats. Still need depth at OLB, he offers that veteran leadership, and can also play ILB in a pinch. So he takes care of 2 spots in 1 go.

Moats over Timmons would be the way to go if we are bringing back guys like that.

[BlackAndGold]

Read that they are taking a "long look" at rookie Matthew Thomas.

I don't see it happening. If it does, it won't be until August.

[Fire Goodell]

come on man

[Carolina Steelers]

In fairness all of these things were basically true of Sean Spence as well and he failed miserably.

I think if they want a veteran guy like that they should just bring back Moats. Still need depth at OLB, he offers that veteran leadership, and can also play ILB in a pinch. So he takes care of 2 spots in 1 go.

Moats over Timmons would be the way to go if we are bringing back guys like that.

I agree I’ll rather have moats over Timmons moats can help on special teams as well if we needed him too


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Craic]

In fairness all of these things were basically true of Sean Spence as well and he failed miserably.

I think if they want a veteran guy like that they should just bring back Moats. Still need depth at OLB, he offers that veteran leadership, and can also play ILB in a pinch. So he takes care of 2 spots in 1 go.

Moats over Timmons would be the way to go if we are bringing back guys like that.
Except for one key area: they picked Spence up off his couch whereas Timmons has been with teams and has stayed in football shape (for what is supposed to be football shape at this point in the offseason). Moreover, Spence never played at the same level as Timmons, so even if they have similar fall-offs, the level to which Timmon's play falls would still be significantly higher than Spence, IMO.

On the other hand, I think you might be right in choosing Moats over Timmons. I haven't seen him play ILB, however, and wonder why he wasn't moved inside instead of picking Spence up off the couch.

[Cyphon25]

Except for one key area: they picked Spence up off his couch whereas Timmons has been with teams and has stayed in football shape (for what is supposed to be football shape at this point in the offseason). Moreover, Spence never played at the same level as Timmons, so even if they have similar fall-offs, the level to which Timmon's play falls would still be significantly higher than Spence, IMO.

On the other hand, I think you might be right in choosing Moats over Timmons. I haven't seen him play ILB, however, and wonder why he wasn't moved inside instead of picking Spence up off the couch.

Fair point on Timmons and Spence. That move was just bad all around. Even if they didn't move Moats in why not give Fort a shot? And we haven't seen a lot of Moats at ILB but I am pretty sure that was his position when he played for the Bills.

[DesertSteel]

The kid from FSU is a gifted athlete, who has a questionable play speed and intensity. Has 41" vertical, but doesn't play downhill. Essentially, he may be the Dan McCullers of ILB in that he "looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane".

I'd rather take a guy that has been to a pro bowl on the downside of his career as insurance, rather than a guy that will be driving a UPS delivery truck in a couple years.
At least Jane is an UDFA!!! :)

[steelreserve]

On a spectrum of Sean Spence ------ FSU UDFA -------- Matekavich -------- Bostic ------------ VW, 2018 Lawrence Timmons falls somewhere between Spence and Matekavich. At this point, Timmons has zero "upside" this kid from FSU is all upside. He has no draft cost. He has almost no cap hit. And he almost by definition has to be better than Sean Spence.

Lawrence Timmons was one of my favorite players for a long long time. But he is simply old, a step slow, and not getting much better any time soon.

Father Time remains undefeated.


The one "upside" of Timmons is that if you sign him, you KNOW you're getting about an average player. The FSU guy could be great or he could fall flat on his face.

If there's an injury and the kid isn't ready or just can't hack it, then guess what - we have last year's defense from the end of the season back, and there's nothing we can do about it.

I don't know about you, but personally I would rather be safe and avoid the possibility of that crap festival happening again. It's hard to quantify how bad it was, but it's right up there with, like ... watching Elizabeth Warren spread her butt cheeks, on loop for 3 hours.

That might be worse, actually. But maybe not. At least not by a whole lot. Just sign Timmons and keep the FSU guy on the practice squad if we really need him. Otherwise:



https://images.hellogiggles.com/uploads/2018/02/14042619/senator-elizabeth-warren.jpg

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Yes and that is why Jane was a UDFA. Because, he plays like Jane.

The notion that somehow UDFA Matthew Thomas will be an asset to the Steelers run defense this year, seems about as realistic as when fans thought 7th round pick, Louisville safety Gerod Holliman would be a ballhawking safety for the Steelers in 2015.:rolleyes:

[tube517]

Yes and that is why Jane was a UDFA. Because, he plays like Jane.

The notion that somehow UDFA Matthew Thomas will be an asset to the Steelers run defense this year, seems about as realistic as when fans thought Gerod Holliman/Senquez Golson, and Doran Grant would be a ballhawking secondary for the Steelers in 2015.:rolleyes:

Fixed! :chuckle:

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Fixed! :chuckle:

Thanks. The Golson scenario was sad, because the kid was a good player, but the Lisfranc fracture and other injuries just piled up. Holliman played 1 season at Louisville, got some gift INT's to pad his stats, but he never had the skillset to make the NFL. Doran Grant was the best CB at Ohio St his Sr. year and a good tackling, but kind of thick DB....Most of the time a good tackling, bigger CB is a good candidate to convert to FS, but nothing ever panned out.

Matthew Thomas is a physically gifted athlete for his position, but didn't play in college with the intensity or technique needed, so he went undrafted. Dan McCullers was similarly gifted with size and movement ability, but again doesn't play with intensity or awareness. Banking on Thomas to support the ILB position is a stretch IMO, as he may not even play special teams well enough to make the 53. I'd be exploring what Timmons or Bowman have left and are willing to sign for.

[Mojouw]

Okay. SO if there was a linebacker named Tawrence Limmons available who had the following 2017:

1. Ranked outside the top 64 linebackers. So if we say 3 guys start per team across the league, that means Tawrence was in the bottom 3rd of linebackers in the NFL.
2. Dolphins reports and several national reports indicated that Limmons struggled against standard run plays all season long.
3. Made no "splash" plays.
4. Is a 32 year old LB that went AWOL on his team during the 2017 regular season.
5. Doesn't play special teams so makes a back-up roster spot tricky.

Would we all be so hot to trot to sign the guy? This is not the Lawrence Timmons that we all know and love. This is the older, slower, version that just came off a really poor season.

Now, MAYBE, a return to the team, system, and coaching staff he knows well would reinvigorate Timmons and he would emerge as a valuable depth player and veteran mentor. Or he could take up a roster spot and offer little value without the team developing a younger player going forward.

This isn't the same as 2017 when LB depth was a killer. The 2017 team swung from its heels for the LB depth chart by chasing Hightower. They missed and had no fall-back plan. The 2018 team is still sorting through options, but appears to have some sort of a plan focused on Thomas, Edmunds, Burnett, Allen, and Matakevich as somehow filling in behind VW and Bostic. I don't really understand this plan and am still more than a little confused about how the 2018 defense proposes to play some basic elements of actual defense. But that doesn't mean there isn't a plan. And the plan seems to be focused on a continued trend towards youth, speed, and positional flexibility. Timmons does not fit that plan.

Of course, all this being said -- it isn't like I would cry in my beer if Timmons pushed LJ Fort off the roster. Spence immediately starting, let alone being signed, is an damning indictment of Fort. Biggest asset Fort provides to the 53 man roster is that Fort plays special teams (and fairly well at that) and Timmons does not.

Personally, I would rather the team bring in Gerald Hodges (http://www.rotoworld.com/recent/nfl/8541/gerald-hodges) converted OLB that last appeared in 2016 for the 49'ers and earned a reputation as a good run defender with a bit of juice playing in space. Additionally, Hodges plays ST's.

But, as I've said before, there is a reason that I bash these opinions about personnel decisions on the internet rather than being paid by a team!

[st33lersguy]

I think the idea of relying on a rookie UDFA to fill in and get the job done is absurd. There's usually a good reason why most of these guys are UDFAs to begin with. For every James Harrison, there's at least 200 UDFAs who don't make it in the NFL

[Mojouw]

I think the idea of relying on a rookie UDFA to fill in and get the job done is absurd. There's usually a good reason why most of these guys are UDFAs to begin with. For every James Harrison, there's at least 200 UDFAs who don't make it in the NFL

What if the player wasn't a UDFA?

Many sites had Thomas listed as a 4th-6th round draft prospect.

So say he was the same player but had been drafted at the top of the 5th round. Is it now absurd?

I suspect that Thomas is too dumb and lacks the recognition skills needed to really have a significant impact for the 2018 season and almost certainly ends up on the PS or cut.

I also suspect that Timmons lacks the range and quickness to any longer bring his recognition skills to bear as a playmaker for an NFL defense in 2018. I think it is certain that he ends up on a team and yoyo's out of the starting line-up.

Neither option screams "Solved the ILB problem!" I'm not certain that the best option isn't to force feed Marcus Allen cheeseburgers and just list the kid as an ILB. Then just play a crap-ton of sub-packages.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Neither option screams "Solved the ILB problem!" I'm not certain that the best option isn't to force feed Marcus Allen cheeseburgers and just list the kid as an ILB. Then just play a crap-ton of sub-packages.

I think "Operation Cheesburgers" is probably already underway with both Marcus Allen and Terrell Edmunds.

[Mojouw]

I think "Operation Cheesburgers" is probably already underway with both Marcus Allen and Terrell Edmunds.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4a/9f/8b/4a9f8b01d32854e0a1195806fc1cbd2b.jpg

[st33lersguy]

What if the player wasn't a UDFA?

Many sites had Thomas listed as a 4th-6th round draft prospect.

So say he was the same player but had been drafted at the top of the 5th round. Is it now absurd?

I suspect that Thomas is too dumb and lacks the recognition skills needed to really have a significant impact for the 2018 season and almost certainly ends up on the PS or cut.

I also suspect that Timmons lacks the range and quickness to any longer bring his recognition skills to bear as a playmaker for an NFL defense in 2018. I think it is certain that he ends up on a team and yoyo's out of the starting line-up.

Neither option screams "Solved the ILB problem!" I'm not certain that the best option isn't to force feed Marcus Allen cheeseburgers and just list the kid as an ILB. Then just play a crap-ton of sub-packages.

If he was drafted in the 5th round, it would still be absurd to rely on him. Most 5th rounders don't make any impact in the NFL let alone immediate impact. Of course he didn't get drafted in round 5, he wasn't drafted. Some draftniks typing behind computers dubbed him a 4th-6th rounder. 32 FOs with a combined 250+ picks over 7 rounds didn't consider him worth a draft pick. Your comment does hint that the Steelers royally screwed up with not doing more to solve the ILB problem which I agree. Timmons may not be the solution, and he may be on the decline, but I would rather rely on Timmons who has proven that he can play at a high level before and at 32 as opposed to 37 or 38, may not be completely past his prime, than someone completely unproven.

[IowaSteeler927]

But Timmons offers almost no upside as a player.

In 14 games last season he had 84 tackles, no sacks, no forced fumbles, no INTS, and according to more than one report struggling in the run game. PFF graded him as the #67 LB in the league.

In 14 games last season, Bostic had 97 tackles and a sack while earning PFF's #12 LB grade against the run.

In 16 games last season, VW had 8 sacks and an INT.

On a spectrum of Sean Spence ------ FSU UDFA -------- Matekavich -------- Bostic ------------ VW, 2018 Lawrence Timmons falls somewhere between Spence and Matekavich. At this point, Timmons has zero "upside" this kid from FSU is all upside. He has no draft cost. He has almost no cap hit. And he almost by definition has to be better than Sean Spence.

Lawrence Timmons was one of my favorite players for a long long time. But he is simply old, a step slow, and not getting much better any time soon.

Father Time remains undefeated.

Precisely my thoughts, I was going to make a post but you already laid it out lol.