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View Full Version : The TRUE reason the Steelers defense has not become elite under the Colbert/Tomlin era.



StillCurtains
04-27-2018, 02:55 PM
Hello all!

Well the much anticipated Day 1 Draft Day turned out to be a huge dud! After Cowher's defensive players have left the Steelers have not been able to get back to elite status since. The reason is this:

Once you have the opportunity to land an elite player in the first 2 rounds when shopping for defense you have got to take them. The Steelers under the Tomlin era have drafted defensive players high and they have indeed been talented, but here is the problem:

They have been drafting raw players that have no true base skillset at their position. They are taking players only based on their speed and athletic attributes and trying to MOLD them into hybrid players.
If you want to make players into hybrids, they should already have a base skillset at their position.

For instance, if you drafted Von Miller and also wanted to make him into a player that can drop into coverage, that would be expanding his skillset. While drafting him it is already known and established that he is an elite pass rusher.

The Steelers are drafting players that have to learn what their strongsuit will be all around because they are so raw and unpolished in almost every area. In the Tomlin era, the only defensive players that have been impactful have been Timmons, Woodley, Heyward, Shazier and Tuitt in terms of draft picks. I do feel that Watt will turn out to be a very good player though.

When you look at the history of the Tomlin era with defensive draft picks from 2007 to now, there have been way more misses than hits and I feel it's due to drafting talented, fast and athletic players that are raw with no true base skillset, and trying to mold them into hybrid players.

hawaiiansteeler
04-27-2018, 03:14 PM
very interesting perspective...

Cyphon25
04-27-2018, 03:54 PM
Well I can't really disagree as I have said similar myself in the past which is a bit concerning. Even outside of the defense I feel like most of what they liked about Dri Archer was his speed. I remember when they drafted Daniel McCullers Colbert said specifically that his size was intriguing. Bud Dupree was more athlete than football player and even Shazier to an extent could be argued for that point.

I kind of wonder if they got gun shy after drafting Jarvis Jones. He was a lot of production but not so much an athlete so maybe that scared them and the pendulum swung too far the other way.

ALLD
04-27-2018, 04:00 PM
They should stick to selecting WRs and use somebody else's mock for the rest.

GBMelBlount
04-27-2018, 04:18 PM
12/26/2017

With their victory on Monday against the Houston Texans, that gives Tomlin 115 wins in his career.

That total ties former Washington Redskins coach Joe Gibbs for the second-most wins through 11 seasons, and Tomlin will pass him if the Steelers defeat the Cleveland Browns Week 17.

With 116 wins, his 11-season total would leave him behind (ONLY) former Miami Dolphins coach Don Shula, via Steelers PR’s Dom Rinelli.

Both of those coaches are in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

http://www.profootballhof.com/pittsburgh-steelers-coach-mike-tomlin-ties-joe-gibbs-in-nfl-record-books/

pczach
04-27-2018, 04:34 PM
They should stick to selecting WRs and use somebody else's mock for the rest.



And maybe all the other teams should let the current Steelers organization draft their players for them. God knows the Steelers are far more successful and win more consistently than just about anybody.

Why all the hate after one draft pick? You haven't seen the rest of the draft, nor have you seen any of the players they will select in this draft do a single thing at the NFL level to base any criticism on. This kid could be a HOF player for all you know.

You are criticizing just to criticize. I just don't understand it.

DesertSteel
04-27-2018, 04:41 PM
It's weird because the other 31 teams are all drafting Pro Bowl players with their 7 picks each year.

GBMelBlount
04-27-2018, 04:53 PM
And maybe all the other teams should let the current Steelers organization draft their players for them. God knows the Steelers are far more successful and win more consistently than just about anybody.

Why all the hate after one draft pick? You haven't seen the rest of the draft, nor have you seen any of the players they will select in this draft do a single thing at the NFL level to base any criticism on. This kid could be a HOF player for all you know.

You are criticizing just to criticize. I just don't understand it.

Well, in fairness, It IS very frustrating to see so many of our drafted players sucking.

However when you look at the bigger picture, most every other team has a worse draft record.

pczach
04-27-2018, 05:06 PM
Well, in fairness, It IS very frustrating to see so many of our drafted players sucking.

However when you look at the bigger picture, most every other team has a worse draft record.



If he gave me his breakdown of the player in question, that's one thing. He's just saying he's a "reach" because he read some other people who may have never seen him play, and will take the word of those football dunces 100 out of every 100 times over the Steelers organization.

I'm sorry, but that makes zero sense.

My favorite thing of all is listening to people bitch who don't watch college football, don't follow it, don't know anything about it, don't know any players in the draft or what their skillsets are..........and they are the most vocal detractors of the organization and the players they are drafting.

In life, if there is something being discussed in the room and you are the guy that doesn't understand anything that is being talked about.....it would be prudent to not say anything or to question the knowledge or abilities of those who know infinitely more about the subject than you do. That's just common sense.

Cyphon25
04-27-2018, 05:12 PM
The thing to keep in mind here is that result and process are 2 different things. Often times people use the result to ignore the process. To give an example I know there have been times where after the Steelers won a game and if afterward you were to question Tomlins clock management you might get a response like "we won and you still find something to complain about". The answer to that is, yes we won this time, but if you keep getting clock management wrong eventually it can and will come back to hurt you and cost you a game.

So win or lose it is always important to look at and try to perfect your process. You don't just write off potential flaws because there have been successes. Now this isn't to anyone in particular but it is generally aimed at the idea of "well we do better than most other teams". Sure, that might be the case but that doesn't mean we still can't question some of the decisions and why the came about. Particularly because coming out of the Cowher era into the Tomlin era we were going to the SB every other season. All of those guys are gone and we haven't been to the SB in years. Obviously that could take us down a rabbit hole of other conversations but I just mean it to slightly emphasize my other point on the importance of process.

With that said, I think there is some truth to the OP's argument. It does seem like Tomlin (and obviously Colbert to an extent as well) has a certain love for atheltics over actual football talent. It isn't necessarily wrong to lean that way, but maybe there should be some question as if they are putting too much stock into physical traits which is causing them to overlook other things.

For me it feels like they are struggling to find the perfect blend in a player. Take Matekevich for example. Great football player, kind of a bad athlete. Bud Dupree is a great athlete, kind of a bad football player. It looks like they might have found the right balance in TJ Watt. The story is yet to be told on Edmunds.

StillCurtains
04-28-2018, 01:17 AM
If he gave me his breakdown of the player in question, that's one thing. He's just saying he's a "reach" because he read some other people who may have never seen him play, and will take the word of those football dunces 100 out of every 100 times over the Steelers organization.

I'm sorry, but that makes zero sense.

My favorite thing of all is listening to people bitch who don't watch college football, don't follow it, don't know anything about it, don't know any players in the draft or what their skillsets are..........and they are the most vocal detractors of the organization and the players they are drafting.

In life, if there is something being discussed in the room and you are the guy that doesn't understand anything that is being talked about.....it would be prudent to not say anything or to question the knowledge or abilities of those who know infinitely more about the subject than you do. That's just common sense.


With all due respect Sir, I'm just stating the facts. This isn't about Tomlin's career winning percentage. This isn't about comparing the Steelers overall draft success to other teams either. I'm specifically talking about Tomlin's draft success with defensive players and it's not impressive.

Tomlin has done a very good job drafting offensive players which is the true reason that the Steelers stay in playoff contention. Cowher didn't do too great for the most part drafting offensive talent. On the other hand, he drafted very well in his tenure defensively.

Facts are facts. Cowher's defenses never had such a steep falloff over such long periods of time the way Tomlin's defenses are. This defense hasn't been able to get back to elite status since 2010. Are you happy with the middling to bad results that the Steelers defenses have had since then? Honestly ask yourself that question.

I don't need game tape on every college player to know that Tomlin's defenses haven't been close to hitting the mark. 45 points in a playoff game to the Jaguars? To a Blake Bortles led offense? Are you kidding me? Shazier or no Shazier, that team should have scored no more than 20 points.

So looking at the results on the field in these past eight years, it comes down to 3 things. Either Tomlin and Colbert are drafting badly defensively, they are doing bad at coaching, or both. When you draft a guy in the first round, he is projected to be your unquestioned future starter. He should be seeing significant snaps at the very least. He should be able to make a significant impact. Can you say any of that for certain with Edmunds?

You don't draft a ( we'll see what he can do) prospect as a first round pick. Ben is in his final few seasons and is in win now mode. He's not in " let's toss it in the air and see where it sticks" mode. With a guy like Edmunds, if you pick him in the third round and he turns out to be a stud, the return is incredible. However, if you pick him in the first and he turns out to be a dud, then the return you get is almost unforgiveable because you passed on superior talent.

Tell me which one of those scenarios suits you best! You can say trust the process, but when the process hasn't gotten the job done in almost 10 years defensively, having trust in it becomes very hard to do and leaves you open for criticizm.

Count Steeler
04-28-2018, 02:10 AM
Prospects are exactly that prospects. Where the Steelers have been lacking on the defensive side of the ball is player development. The position coaches have not performed well. Perhaps their skillset does not contain the ability to teach young kids how to expand their roles. If you fail with one guy, that is probably on the player. If you have a history of under performing picks, you have to start looking at the coaches.

I believe that is why some changes were made on the coaching staff this year.

Six Rings
04-28-2018, 07:43 AM
Hello all!

Well the much anticipated Day 1 Draft Day turned out to be a huge dud! After Cowher's defensive players have left the Steelers have not been able to get back to elite status since. The reason is this:

Once you have the opportunity to land an elite player in the first 2 rounds when shopping for defense you have got to take them. The Steelers under the Tomlin era have drafted defensive players high and they have indeed been talented, but here is the problem:

They have been drafting raw players that have no true base skillset at their position. They are taking players only based on their speed and athletic attributes and trying to MOLD them into hybrid players.
If you want to make players into hybrids, they should already have a base skillset at their position.

For instance, if you drafted Von Miller and also wanted to make him into a player that can drop into coverage, that would be expanding his skillset. While drafting him it is already known and established that he is an elite pass rusher.

The Steelers are drafting players that have to learn what their strongsuit will be all around because they are so raw and unpolished in almost every area. In the Tomlin era, the only defensive players that have been impactful have been Timmons, Woodley, Heyward, Shazier and Tuitt in terms of draft picks. I do feel that Watt will turn out to be a very good player though.

When you look at the history of the Tomlin era with defensive draft picks from 2007 to now, there have been way more misses than hits and I feel it's due to drafting talented, fast and athletic players that are raw with no true base skillset, and trying to mold them into hybrid players.

Colbert does the drafting, the DC and positional coaches develop. But you are right, we draft raw players. Maybe because the more seasoned talented players go early in the draft and we pick late due to a good record.

JayC
04-28-2018, 08:34 AM
tomlin after every first round reach pick

https://media.giphy.com/media/pyvflO4O1i94O4DG0b/giphy.gif

tube517
04-28-2018, 08:46 AM
tomlin after every first round reach pick

https://media.giphy.com/media/pyvflO4O1i94O4DG0b/giphy.gif

https://media1.tenor.com/images/988ca48a42af05005cc711e65ce20a88/tenor.gif?itemid=5512089

https://i.imgur.com/j6EsdCN.gif

Mojouw
04-28-2018, 08:58 AM
Heyward
Shazier
Tuitt
Hargrave
Watt
sutton
Burns
Davis
Dupree

9 guys. Throw in Jarvis if you want. Where is the big swing and a miss? Dupree? Jones? Davis? Burns? So even if I were to agree with that, it would still be a 50% hit rate. Who’s doing better than that? Since 3 of the 4 busts are low end NFL starters at worst, we can push that hit rate up a bit.

I judt dont don’t think people really understand how interconnected Shazier was to the entire defensive scheme. Remember when past defenses lost Polamalu and they couldn’t stop a fart? Same thing. Plus Ilb was such a wasteland that NFL teams just is Isolated he wound and banged on it.

Mojouw
04-28-2018, 09:06 AM
Related to this is that there are only so many NFL ready defenders in each draft. After about pick 15-18 each year those dudes are gone. Look what New Orleans gave up to get a raw prospect in Marcus Davenport.

pczach
04-28-2018, 09:49 AM
With all due respect Sir, I'm just stating the facts. This isn't about Tomlin's career winning percentage. This isn't about comparing the Steelers overall draft success to other teams either. I'm specifically talking about Tomlin's draft success with defensive players and it's not impressive.

Tomlin has done a very good job drafting offensive players which is the true reason that the Steelers stay in playoff contention. Cowher didn't do too great for the most part drafting offensive talent. On the other hand, he drafted very well in his tenure defensively.

Facts are facts. Cowher's defenses never had such a steep falloff over such long periods of time the way Tomlin's defenses are. This defense hasn't been able to get back to elite status since 2010. Are you happy with the middling to bad results that the Steelers defenses have had since then? Honestly ask yourself that question.

I don't need game tape on every college player to know that Tomlin's defenses haven't been close to hitting the mark. 45 points in a playoff game to the Jaguars? To a Blake Bortles led offense? Are you kidding me? Shazier or no Shazier, that team should have scored no more than 20 points.

So looking at the results on the field in these past eight years, it comes down to 3 things. Either Tomlin and Colbert are drafting badly defensively, they are doing bad at coaching, or both. When you draft a guy in the first round, he is projected to be your unquestioned future starter. He should be seeing significant snaps at the very least. He should be able to make a significant impact. Can you say any of that for certain with Edmunds?

You don't draft a ( we'll see what he can do) prospect as a first round pick. Ben is in his final few seasons and is in win now mode. He's not in " let's toss it in the air and see where it sticks" mode. With a guy like Edmunds, if you pick him in the third round and he turns out to be a stud, the return is incredible. However, if you pick him in the first and he turns out to be a dud, then the return you get is almost unforgiveable because you passed on superior talent.

Tell me which one of those scenarios suits you best! You can say trust the process, but when the process hasn't gotten the job done in almost 10 years defensively, having trust in it becomes very hard to do and leaves you open for criticizm.



None of my posts above were directed at you. I was responding to the comments by ALLD that they should stick to drafting WRs.


There was nothing reasonable or productive about his comments.

You have a point that there are some concerns about the defense. I wasn't trying to derail the thread, just call out someone not contributing anything productive.

Dwinsgames
04-28-2018, 10:03 AM
With all due respect Sir, I'm just stating the facts. This isn't about Tomlin's career winning percentage. This isn't about comparing the Steelers overall draft success to other teams either. I'm specifically talking about Tomlin's draft success with defensive players and it's not impressive.

Tomlin has done a very good job drafting offensive players which is the true reason that the Steelers stay in playoff contention. Cowher didn't do too great for the most part drafting offensive talent. On the other hand, he drafted very well in his tenure defensively.

Facts are facts. Cowher's defenses never had such a steep falloff over such long periods of time the way Tomlin's defenses are. This defense hasn't been able to get back to elite status since 2010. Are you happy with the middling to bad results that the Steelers defenses have had since then? Honestly ask yourself that question.

I don't need game tape on every college player to know that Tomlin's defenses haven't been close to hitting the mark. 45 points in a playoff game to the Jaguars? To a Blake Bortles led offense? Are you kidding me? Shazier or no Shazier, that team should have scored no more than 20 points.

So looking at the results on the field in these past eight years, it comes down to 3 things. Either Tomlin and Colbert are drafting badly defensively, they are doing bad at coaching, or both. When you draft a guy in the first round, he is projected to be your unquestioned future starter. He should be seeing significant snaps at the very least. He should be able to make a significant impact. Can you say any of that for certain with Edmunds?

You don't draft a ( we'll see what he can do) prospect as a first round pick. Ben is in his final few seasons and is in win now mode. He's not in " let's toss it in the air and see where it sticks" mode. With a guy like Edmunds, if you pick him in the third round and he turns out to be a stud, the return is incredible. However, if you pick him in the first and he turns out to be a dud, then the return you get is almost unforgiveable because you passed on superior talent.

Tell me which one of those scenarios suits you best! You can say trust the process, but when the process hasn't gotten the job done in almost 10 years defensively, having trust in it becomes very hard to do and leaves you open for criticizm.


just a quick hitter on this and I will bow out ...

a few things are painstakingly obvious to me here that need said ....

1) Cowher being a better drafter on def. .... yes he was and predominantly the reason behind that is he was a defensive player and is more intimately familiar with what to look for in those players

2) Tomlin being a better offensive minded drafter.....he was a WR and has more intimate knowledge on what to look for on that side of the ball than Cower did and that in a nutshell is what makes the difference

everyone watches the same tape goes to the same combine etc , the differences are what is instilled within yourself the longest becomes your most valued abilities .... familiarity / comfort zone call it what you will ....

1 more thing is the game is ever changing as is its rules and they always favor the offense so defense is always being limited thus more points scored vs...

and the 45 points to the Jags .... last I checked turnovers had a BIG part in that loss , if they do not have the ball they are not scoring ... Ben gave them the ball a few extra times and they consequently scored every time ...

the Jags have one hell of a defense but they did not acquire that by drafting 24-32 they acquired it drafting top 10 and multiple selections ...when you pick at the top of the draft and have a ton of draft resources and make the right picks and also have the draft fall in your favor and can get a top 10 kind of player like Myles Jack in round 2 ... well .....


hell look at the drafts they have put together , and it was predicated by early in the round selections

2016
Jalen Ramsey 5th player selected
Myles Jack top 10 talent drafted round 2
Yannick Ngakoue a pass rusher many of us wanted in round 3 but gone pick 5 of round 3
Sheldon Day pick 5 round 4 many of us wanted him as well in rd 4 but the player did not make it to us again

2015
Dante Fowler picked 3rd over all


5 selections right there guys we NEVER had a shot at in the round they where selected in nearly HALF of their starting defense

pczach
04-28-2018, 10:08 AM
just a quick hitter on this and I will bow out ...

a few things are painstakingly obvious to me here that need said ....

1) Cowher being a better drafter on def. .... yes he was and predominantly the reason behind that is he was a defensive player and is more intimately familiar with what to look for in those players

2) Tomlin being a better offensive minded drafter.....he was a WR and has more intimate knowledge on what to look for on that side of the ball than Cower did and that in a nutshell is what makes the difference

everyone watches the same tape goes to the same combine etc , the differences are what is instilled within yourself the longest becomes your most valued abilities .... familiarity / comfort zone call it what you will ....

1 more thing is the game is ever changing as is its rules and they always favor the offense so defense is always being limited thus more points scored vs...

and the 45 points to the Jags .... last I checked turnovers had a BIG part in that loss , if they do not have the ball they are not scoring ... Ben gave them the ball a few extra times and they consequently scored every time ...

the Jags have one hell of a defense but they did not acquire that by drafting 24-32 they acquired it drafting top 10 and multiple selections ...when you pick at the top of the draft and have a ton of draft resources and make the right picks and also have the draft fall in your favor and can get a top 10 kind of player like Myles Jack in round 2 ... well .....


hell look at the drafts they have put together , and it was predicated by early in the round selections

2016
Jalen Ramsey 5th player selected
Myles Jack top 10 talent drafted round 2
Yannick Ngakoue a pass rusher many of us wanted in round 3 but gone pick 5 of round 3
Sheldon Day pick 5 round 4 many of us wanted him as well in rd 4 but the player did not make it to us again

2015
Dante Fowler picked 3rd over all


5 selections right there guys we NEVER had a shot at in the round they where selected in nearly HALF of their starting defense



Great post.

That's a good perspective of what some of the issues are, plus pointing out that consistent success makes it harder to find impact players when you draft much later.

teegre
04-28-2018, 10:18 AM
I’ll add this:

Back in Cowher’s day, they were the only team running the 3-4. Ergo, they had their pick of OLBs.

In other words, Joey Porter would never have lasted until pick 73 in this year’s draft; he would have gone in the top 20.

Mojouw
04-28-2018, 10:22 AM
You know what? I'm so tired of having to have the same arguments every 3 months because people have a hard time reading.

Cowher era defenses had lapses as well. Was it the 1999 defense that ranked 11th in yards and 12th in points? What about the 2002-2003 defenses that ranked 15th and 16th in points? What about the fact that in Cowher's last year the defense was 9th in yards and 11th in points and then the next year under Tomlin the defense was 1st and 2nd? What about the fact that Cowher had far more losing seasons than Tomlin?

What about Cowher drafting Alonzo Jackson outta nowhere because he like the look in his eye? Wanna talk about raw?! What about Colclough? Remember Anthony Smith? Amazing because Anthony Smith barely remembers Anthony Smith. Wanna talk raw AF, Ike Taylor.

What about every DE to OLB conversion project ever? Remember how those guys would just chill on the bench for 2-3 seasons and then the current OLB would ride off into the sunset and someone else would step in and play like it was an assembly line? Sure you do. But, MojoUW, that doesn't happen now. Surely that means Tomlin and company suck. Well grasshoppers, there have been a few changes in the league and long story short, those OLB conversion and polishing projects now play right away instead of sitting and learning for a season or three. Joey Porter didn't start until his second year. Haggans became a full time starter at 27. We all know the James Harrison story. What are Watt and Dupree, like 12 and 15? What used to happen in practices and off-season workouts now happens live in full HD on Sundays. But yet many want to just discard every player who doesn't flash right away.

Look, Dupree, Davis, and Burns drive me nuts. Each has shown flashes of the player the Steelers hope for them to be. Each has repeatedly not been that player. But Davis and Burns are entering their third season. I'm not ready to pull the ripcord on either guy. Dupree is on his 4th but 2 have been injury marred - limiting practice and workout time. I'll give him 8-10 more games before I walk away. Remember when everyone used to talk about a 3rd year breakout for WRs? Remember how people always say you cant evaluate a draft class for a few years?

pczach
04-28-2018, 10:25 AM
I’ll add this:

Back in Cowher’s day, they were the only team running the 3-4. Ergo, they had their pick of OLBs.

In other words, Joey Porter would never have lasted until pick 73 in this year’s draft; he would have gone in the top 20.


Another great point that isn't brought up enough.

Mojouw
04-28-2018, 10:28 AM
I’ll add this:

Back in Cowher’s day, they were the only team running the 3-4. Ergo, they had their pick of OLBs.

In other words, Joey Porter would never have lasted until pick 73 in this year’s draft; he would have gone in the top 20.

Which has a ripple effect all the way through the draft. Gambles on edge rushers have to come earlier and earlier each year. Media drive pre-draft grades on edge rushers are inflated each year.

Now throw in the fact that the Steelers currently ask their OLBs to do things that Porter, Gildon, Green, Lloyd, Haggans, Emmons, etc. very rarely if ever had to do and you have a recipe for uncertainty.

StillCurtains
04-28-2018, 12:05 PM
You know what? I'm so tired of having to have the same arguments every 3 months because people have a hard time reading.

Cowher era defenses had lapses as well. Was it the 1999 defense that ranked 11th in yards and 12th in points? What about the 2002-2003 defenses that ranked 15th and 16th in points? What about the fact that in Cowher's last year the defense was 9th in yards and 11th in points and then the next year under Tomlin the defense was 1st and 2nd? What about the fact that Cowher had far more losing seasons than Tomlin?

What about Cowher drafting Alonzo Jackson outta nowhere because he like the look in his eye? Wanna talk about raw?! What about Colclough? Remember Anthony Smith? Amazing because Anthony Smith barely remembers Anthony Smith. Wanna talk raw AF, Ike Taylor.

What about every DE to OLB conversion project ever? Remember how those guys would just chill on the bench for 2-3 seasons and then the current OLB would ride off into the sunset and someone else would step in and play like it was an assembly line? Sure you do. But, MojoUW, that doesn't happen now. Surely that means Tomlin and company suck. Well grasshoppers, there have been a few changes in the league and long story short, those OLB conversion and polishing projects now play right away instead of sitting and learning for a season or three. Joey Porter didn't start until his second year. Haggans became a full time starter at 27. We all know the James Harrison story. What are Watt and Dupree, like 12 and 15? What used to happen in practices and off-season workouts now happens live in full HD on Sundays. But yet many want to just discard every player who doesn't flash right away.

Look, Dupree, Davis, and Burns drive me nuts. Each has shown flashes of the player the Steelers hope for them to be. Each has repeatedly not been that player. But Davis and Burns are entering their third season. I'm not ready to pull the ripcord on either guy. Dupree is on his 4th but 2 have been injury marred - limiting practice and workout time. I'll give him 8-10 more games before I walk away. Remember when everyone used to talk about a 3rd year breakout for WRs? Remember how people always say you cant evaluate a draft class for a few years?

If you actually read what I said in detail, I said that Cowher's defenses didn't have lapses over LONG periods of time. I never said that his defenses never has lapses.

tube517
04-28-2018, 12:16 PM
Great thread.


I'm reading and waiting for the Steelers and my dumb ass forgot they don't have a pick in round 4. :doh:

StillCurtains
04-28-2018, 12:43 PM
Great post.

That's a good perspective of what some of the issues are, plus pointing out that consistent success makes it harder to find impact players when you draft much later.

It's understood that other teams are consistently getting high draft picks to make our chances more difficult, but when you have high draft picks and whiff as the Steelers have, it makes it extremely painful and sets you back.

Guys like Sylvester, Worilds, Bruce Davis, Hood, Shamarko Thomas, Jarvis Jones and Golson have really set this team back.

Also being that the league is ever changing and continuing to ignore drafting true talent at the corner position can be mentioned with Golson (mentioned above) Shaq Richardson, Hawthorne, Crezdon Butler, Cortez Allen, Curtis Brown, Dorin Grant, Joe Burnett and Terrance Frederick.

Not saying that all of them were drafted high, but being that Allen was the only one that had a noticeable role and time with the team, you would think they would have caught on to this fatal flaw long ago and started using higher picks to find better talent at the position.

Dwinsgames
04-28-2018, 01:02 PM
It's understood that other teams are consistently getting high draft picks to make our chances more difficult, but when you have high draft picks and whiff as the Steelers have, it makes it extremely painful and sets you back.

Guys like Sylvester, Worilds, Bruce Davis, Hood, Shamarko Thomas, Jarvis Jones and Golson have really set this team back.

Also being that the league is ever changing and continuing to ignore drafting true talent at the corner position can be mentioned with Golson (mentioned above) Shaq Richardson, Hawthorne, Crezdon Butler, Cortez Allen, Curtis Brown, Dorin Grant, Joe Burnett and Terrance Frederick.

Not saying that all of them were drafted high, but being that Allen was the only one that had a noticeable role and time with the team, you would think they would have caught on to this fatal flaw long ago and started using higher picks to find better talent at the position.

Mo


I think what you seem to be missing in all of this is we continue to draft late in spite of what you consider failed opportunities ...

EVERY team misses on picks , every team goes through growing pains , BUT yet we continue to compete at a high level and pick late every single year ....

we have not had a top 10 pick since 2000 we took Plaxico Burress 1 year after throwing away pick 13 on Troy Edwards ( Cowher era Offensive selections ) so essentially we spent two HIGH 1st rounders to get 1 player to catch the football ....

Cowher era teams kept us at a high level because of a strong defense and for the most part a ground and pound 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense
Tomlin era teams have kept us at a high level because of a pressure based downfield offense and a up and down defense

the cap provides only so much money per team and you have to pick and choose the style of ball you want to play and who to pay to obtain it ....

neither scenario is " wrong" both have kept us as a mainstay in playoff contention for a very long time ....

all that said lets not forget neither Cowher nor Tomlin are GMs of this team that is Colberts job and to many fans seem to forget that little nugget ...

Coaches coach all season long while the GM is scanning waiver wires and organizing his scouts to scout college talent and most of this work is done while our coaching staff is still game planning week to week ..

sure the coach has a voice in the draft but he ( whomever it is ) is probably the furthest person in the war room from the loop . knows the least about the talent available and has studied the tape , the off field stuff with backgrounds etc the least of everyone involved in the process because they got on the moving train more than half way through the journey ...


I am far from a Tomlin apologist I believe there are a LOT of things he lacks as a head coach , but to make it sound like Cowher is without warts or is / was somehow leaps and bound superior is about as nonsensical of a philosophy as one could ever try and present because simply put the evidence is not in your favor from a coaching standpoint or a drafting one ....


go have a look

http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/teams/steelers

(http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/teams/steelers)https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/


all that said I appreciate your enthusiasm and fandom ...

here is to a successful 2018 and beyond campaign :drink:

just try not to hit the :panic: before its really time to do so

Mojouw
04-28-2018, 01:21 PM
I think what you seem to be missing in all of this is we continue to draft late in spite of what you consider failed opportunities ...

EVERY team misses on picks , every team goes through growing pains , BUT yet we continue to compete at a high level and pick late every single year ....

we have not had a top 10 pick since 2000 we took Plaxico Burress 1 year after throwing away pick 13 on Troy Edwards ( Cowher era Offensive selections ) so essentially we spent two HIGH 1st rounders to get 1 player to catch the football ....

Cowher era teams kept us at a high level because of a strong defense and for the most part a ground and pound 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense
Tomlin era teams have kept us at a high level because of a pressure based downfield offense and a up and down defense

the cap provides only so much money per team and you have to pick and choose the style of ball you want to play and who to pay to obtain it ....

neither scenario is " wrong" both have kept us as a mainstay in playoff contention for a very long time ....

all that said lets not forget neither Cowher nor Tomlin are GMs of this team that is Colberts job and to many fans seem to forget that little nugget ...

Coaches coach all season long while the GM is scanning waiver wires and organizing his scouts to scout college talent and most of this work is done while our coaching staff is still game planning week to week ..

sure the coach has a voice in the draft but he ( whomever it is ) is probably the furthest person in the war room from the loop . knows the least about the talent available and has studied the tape , the off field stuff with backgrounds etc the least of everyone involved in the process because they got on the moving train more than half way through the journey ...


I am far from a Tomlin apologist I believe there are a LOT of things he lacks as a head coach , but to make it sound like Cowher is without warts or is / was somehow leaps and bound superior is about as nonsensical of a philosophy as one could ever try and present because simply put the evidence is not in your favor from a coaching standpoint or a drafting one ....


go have a look

http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/teams/steelers

(http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/teams/steelers)https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/


all that said I appreciate your enthusiasm and fandom ...

here is to a successful 2018 and beyond campaign :drink:

just try not to hit the :panic: before its really time to do so

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Leonardo-DiCaprio-Cheering-In-Django-Unchained-Gif.gif

StillCurtains
04-28-2018, 05:27 PM
I think what you seem to be missing in all of this is we continue to draft late in spite of what you consider failed opportunities ...

EVERY team misses on picks , every team goes through growing pains , BUT yet we continue to compete at a high level and pick late every single year ....

we have not had a top 10 pick since 2000 we took Plaxico Burress 1 year after throwing away pick 13 on Troy Edwards ( Cowher era Offensive selections ) so essentially we spent two HIGH 1st rounders to get 1 player to catch the football ....

Cowher era teams kept us at a high level because of a strong defense and for the most part a ground and pound 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense
Tomlin era teams have kept us at a high level because of a pressure based downfield offense and a up and down defense

the cap provides only so much money per team and you have to pick and choose the style of ball you want to play and who to pay to obtain it ....

neither scenario is " wrong" both have kept us as a mainstay in playoff contention for a very long time ....

all that said lets not forget neither Cowher nor Tomlin are GMs of this team that is Colberts job and to many fans seem to forget that little nugget ...

Coaches coach all season long while the GM is scanning waiver wires and organizing his scouts to scout college talent and most of this work is done while our coaching staff is still game planning week to week ..

sure the coach has a voice in the draft but he ( whomever it is ) is probably the furthest person in the war room from the loop . knows the least about the talent available and has studied the tape , the off field stuff with backgrounds etc the least of everyone involved in the process because they got on the moving train more than half way through the journey ...


I am far from a Tomlin apologist I believe there are a LOT of things he lacks as a head coach , but to make it sound like Cowher is without warts or is / was somehow leaps and bound superior is about as nonsensical of a philosophy as one could ever try and present because simply put the evidence is not in your favor from a coaching standpoint or a drafting one ....


go have a look

http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/teams/steelers

(http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/teams/steelers)https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/


all that said I appreciate your enthusiasm and fandom ...

here is to a successful 2018 and beyond campaign :drink:

just try not to hit the :panic: before its really time to do so

Cheers Bro!
We all know what we want and that's #7!
Despite all our gripes, differences and wants and needs, that's what we all have in common.
Here's to our full support to the entire Steelers organization for the 2018 season!
Totally on board for a Superbowl 53 victory whether or not my opinions are right or wrong!

Craic
04-28-2018, 07:27 PM
I think the OP is a little unfair by focusing only on defense. There's a few things to remember here.

1. Tomlin was left with an aging O line that had to be completely rebuilt within a year or two. Drafts went to the offense there, not the defense.

2. Tomlin was also left with one good WR and one pot-smoking headcase. Since then, the Steelers have produced three receivers that play at the top position on various teams not to mention one we just got a 3rd round pick for.

3. Tomlin was left with Clark Haggans and Larry Foote as starting LBs. He had to spend a first and a second on Timmons and Woodley. Timmons quietly turned into an outstanding LB for the Steelers and Woodley had a very good run with 33.5 sacks in four years and four INTs until injuries slowed him down. Without those two, I doubt we win the SB in 2008.

4. We couldn't draft guys for defense for the first few years except one here and there. Why? Because they'd sit on the bench until their contract ran out. The name of the game during those first four years was win now. The entire organization was focused on keeping the defensive vets except for the two LBs I mentioned.

5. As a result of 4, Colbert and the front office put this team in salary-cap hell for two years. They chose to do so precisely because they knew a group of veterans were aging out and they tried to squeeze on last SB out of them. They almost got it in '10, then saw age catch up in 11 and 12. That salary cap hell meant we couldn't keep other players. One example was Keenan Lewis. The lights turned on for him in our system and he had 23 passes defended and 54 tacklets with 15 assists in his last year with us. We couldn't keep him. That hurt us tremendously. He went to the Saints and had a pretty good first season. I expect had he stayed with the Steelers, his stock would have continued to rise because he was in a system that worked for him.

6. Draft position. Bill Cowher had the "privilege" of drafting 8th, 11th twice, 13th, 16th (moved up), 17th, 19th, And, you want to talk about misses. Check out Edwards, Anthony Smith, Bryant McFadden, Ricardo Colclough, Alonzo Jackson, Scott Shields, Jeremey Staat, Chad Scott (I still have nightmares about him), Deon Figures. Those were ALL first or second round defensive pics under Cowher. By comparison, Tomlin picked 15th twice, 17th once, 18th once, and all the rest are in the 20s.

So, no, all-in-all, I'll take drafting under Tomlin over that of Cowher, and I don't think you can simply compare drafting defense without everything else being considered as well.

pczach
04-29-2018, 06:50 AM
I think the OP is a little unfair by focusing only on defense. There's a few things to remember here.

1. Tomlin was left with an aging O line that had to be completely rebuilt within a year or two. Drafts went to the offense there, not the defense.

2. Tomlin was also left with one good WR and one pot-smoking headcase. Since then, the Steelers have produced three receivers that play at the top position on various teams not to mention one we just got a 3rd round pick for.

3. Tomlin was left with Clark Haggans and Larry Foote as starting LBs. He had to spend a first and a second on Timmons and Woodley. Timmons quietly turned into an outstanding LB for the Steelers and Woodley had a very good run with 33.5 sacks in four years and four INTs until injuries slowed him down. Without those two, I doubt we win the SB in 2008.

4. We couldn't draft guys for defense for the first few years except one here and there. Why? Because they'd sit on the bench until their contract ran out. The name of the game during those first four years was win now. The entire organization was focused on keeping the defensive vets except for the two LBs I mentioned.

5. As a result of 4, Colbert and the front office put this team in salary-cap hell for two years. They chose to do so precisely because they knew a group of veterans were aging out and they tried to squeeze on last SB out of them. They almost got it in '10, then saw age catch up in 11 and 12. That salary cap hell meant we couldn't keep other players. One example was Keenan Lewis. The lights turned on for him in our system and he had 23 passes defended and 54 tacklets with 15 assists in his last year with us. We couldn't keep him. That hurt us tremendously. He went to the Saints and had a pretty good first season. I expect had he stayed with the Steelers, his stock would have continued to rise because he was in a system that worked for him.

6. Draft position. Bill Cowher had the "privilege" of drafting 8th, 11th twice, 13th, 16th (moved up), 17th, 19th, And, you want to talk about misses. Check out Edwards, Anthony Smith, Bryant McFadden, Ricardo Colclough, Alonzo Jackson, Scott Shields, Jeremey Staat, Chad Scott (I still have nightmares about him), Deon Figures. Those were ALL first or second round defensive pics under Cowher. By comparison, Tomlin picked 15th twice, 17th once, 18th once, and all the rest are in the 20s.

So, no, all-in-all, I'll take drafting under Tomlin over that of Cowher, and I don't think you can simply compare drafting defense without everything else being considered as well.




People also seem to forget that at one time about 70% of the teams salary cap was spent on the defense. The offensive talent needed to be upgraded, and the defensive players got old and needed to be replaced.

The entire team was built around the defense. Ben played behind horrible offensive lines for years and didn't have great players around him. Ben basically ran around to buy time and made plays while the defense shut people down. How can people forget this stuff. Ben essentially was nearly the entire offense. Even when he had Hines, he only had "great Hines" for a couple years. Hines got old and couldn't get open against man coverage for years. Ben extended his career by a number of years and had to do a lot to overcome the lack of offensive talent.

I'm not going to sit here and crush Tomlin for having to replace an entire defense that was kept together a little too long to try to squeeze out another Super Bowl. He took the talented but old roster from Cowher, won a Super Bowl, went to another, and rebuilt a roster to the point that they are competing for championships without having a losing season and picking late in the draft every year. I mean come on people. Everyone here knows that what I'm saying is true if you've been a fan of this team for more than 10 years.

Everyone makes this about Tomlin, but Colbert is still the GM drafting the talent. Tomlin has huge input on that but this is an organizational thing....not the maniacal incompetence of one man. This is how football works.

At one time, the defensive side of the ball commanded the lion's share of the cap. Now, the offensive side of the ball has become the dominant side by necessity as the defense had to be rebuilt with young talent, and is still being built.