DINNER: Tomlin & Colbert had dinner with LVE [Archive]

hawaiiansteeler

04-03-2018, 05:29 PM

Officially in the conversation to be the pick in round one.

But will he be there? He has over taken Evans as the #3 ILB prospect.

Los Angeles Chargers: Leighton Vander Esch, LB, Boise State

The Chargers have a great defense, but they need help at nose tackle, safety and linebacker. They figure to address one of those positions with this pick unless they choose an offensive lineman, so Leighton Vander Esch makes sense if Vita Vea and Da'Ron Payne are off the board.

Vander Esch's stock is rising. I've had him going to the Steelers for quite a while, but Pittsburgh may have to move up to get him.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2018_1.php

86WARD

04-03-2018, 05:31 PM

Tomlin paid for it but Colbert took credit for it thus creating a rift between himself and Tomlin.

He's gonna sign his contract with a Rolamech 1000 mechanical pencil.

teegre

04-03-2018, 08:33 PM

Did he order the big salad?

Ali had the fruit punch...

Shoes

04-03-2018, 08:45 PM

Should the Steelers move up to get him?

st33lersguy

04-03-2018, 08:52 PM

If they draft him, it would be the first time the Steelers drafted someone from outside of a power 5 conference in the first round since Big Ben in 2004

teegre

04-03-2018, 09:18 PM

Should the Steelers move up to get him?

The odds are that either LVE or Rashaan Evans will fall to 28.

It has been yeeeears since more than 3 ILBs were drafted in the first round. Smith, Edmunds, LVE, and Evans... one of them "has" to be there at 28.

teegre

04-03-2018, 09:44 PM

Shoes

04-03-2018, 09:48 PM

86WARD

04-03-2018, 09:48 PM

If they want him, the Steelers are going to have to move up. Neither he nor Evans will be available at 28. It’ll wind up being an “Artie Burns” situation all over again...and they’ll reach for Jackson or Leonard at that spot when they could probably wait until round 2...

teegre

04-03-2018, 09:55 PM

Probably gain 35 pounds by draft day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXH_12QWWg8&app=desktop

Shoes

04-03-2018, 10:00 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXH_12QWWg8&app=desktop

:lol:

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If they want him, the Steelers are going to have to move up. Neither he nor Evans will be available at 28. It’ll wind up being an “Artie Burns” situation all over again...and they’ll reach for Jackson or Leonard at that spot when they could probably wait until round 2...

Seems like this draft is really going to be a wild one.

Dwinsgames

04-03-2018, 10:45 PM

Actually... if LVE is our guy, we might have to trade up.

LVE has dinners scheduled with the following teams.

12 & 22. Bills
13. Washington
14. Packers
15. Cardinals
18. Seahawks
19. Cowboys
20. Lions
21. Bengals
24. Panthers
25. Titans
26. Falcons
27. Saints
28. Steelers
32. Eagles

:scared:

if it mandates a move up to get him we most likely wont ( or even should bother trying ) to get him , we simply do not have the needed selections to make any such move already down a quality pick in rd 4 and no 6th any moves we make are likely down

Born2Steel

04-03-2018, 10:57 PM

The odds are that either LVE or Rashaan Evans will fall to 28.

It has been yeeeears since more than 3 ILBs were drafted in the first round. Smith, Edmunds, LVE, and Evans... one of them "has" to be there at 28.

Exactly this. I think the Steelers see this list as 1. Smith, 2. Edmunds, 3. Evans, 4. LVE. Just looking at the history of Steeler 1st round picks from P5 conferences. This has been the trend since Ben. Terrible Podcast even had a segment on it Friday. This being the case, I could see LVE being the pick at 28 making him the 4th ILB off the 1st round board this draft.

However, the prospect of getting an edge with starting this season potential is great also. With VW and Bostic already penciled in as starters, a 2nd/3rd round pick of Baker, Sam, Avery, or Jefferson could be in the cards as well.

I love how this draft is playing out in the fact that I really have no idea today where this 28th pick may go. You really want this pick to have an impact this season, so ILB, OLB, Safety, WR, or TE are the most likely landing spots. Need puts you over to the ILB, OLB positions. But QB, and RB could both also be in play although doubtful at 28. Plus, as we have discussed before, not too early to look at a dominant OL pick either. I think we can rule out DL, CB, but a game changer at any of the other position groups can be the pick.

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if it mandates a move up to get him we most likely wont ( or even should bother trying ) to get him , we simply do not have the needed selections to make any such move already down a quality pick in rd 4 and no 6th any moves we make are likely down

If the Pats can pull off a 1st and 6th for Cooks, why can we not get at least a 3rd and 4th for Bryant? Bryant would be a #1 or #2 on a lot of teams.

Dwinsgames

04-03-2018, 11:03 PM

Exactly this. I think the Steelers see this list as 1. Smith, 2. Edmunds, 3. Evans, 4. LVE. Just looking at the history of Steeler 1st round picks from P5 conferences. This has been the trend since Ben. Terrible Podcast even had a segment on it Friday. This being the case, I could see LVE being the pick at 28 making him the 4th ILB off the 1st round board this draft.

However, the prospect of getting an edge with starting this season potential is great also. With VW and Bostic already penciled in as starters, a 2nd/3rd round pick of Baker, Sam, Avery, or Jefferson could be in the cards as well.

I love how this draft is playing out in the fact that I really have no idea today where this 28th pick may go. You really want this pick to have an impact this season, so ILB, OLB, Safety, WR, or TE are the most likely landing spots. Need puts you over to the ILB, OLB positions. But QB, and RB could both also be in play although doubtful at 28. Plus, as we have discussed before, not too early to look at a dominant OL pick either. I think we can rule out DL, CB, but a game changer at any of the other position groups can be the pick.

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If the Pats can pull off a 1st and 6th for Cooks, why can we not get at least a 3rd and 4th for Bryant? Bryant would be a #1 or #2 on a lot of teams.

Pats also sent a 4th in that deal too ..Cooks never been a malcontent , never been suspended over 1k yards 3 years in a row and still just 24

but hey you could always try I guess

Born2Steel

04-03-2018, 11:09 PM

Pats also sent a 4th in that deal too ..Cooks never been a malcontent , never been suspended over 1k yards 3 years in a row and still just 24

but hey you could always try I guess

Correct. I mis-spoke/posted, Cooks and a 4th for a 1st and a 6th. Cooks never been a malcontent is false though. The very reason the Saints let him go was because he pouted too much about having to share the ball. Talent-wise, Cooks has very few peers. As does Bryant. Bryant's history is his downfall, true. But in the right system, Bryant could be a legit weapon and a nightmare that we let him get away. But he's gone after this season anyway, so why not make a trade for more picks. At least try like you say.

Dwinsgames

04-03-2018, 11:26 PM

Correct. I mis-spoke/posted, Cooks and a 4th for a 1st and a 6th. Cooks never been a malcontent is false though. The very reason the Saints let him go was because he pouted too much about having to share the ball. Talent-wise, Cooks has very few peers. As does Bryant. Bryant's history is his downfall, true. But in the right system, Bryant could be a legit weapon and a nightmare that we let him get away. But he's gone after this season anyway, so why not make a trade for more picks. At least try like you say.

I would not be opposed to it if the compensation was right because he is on the last year of his rookie deal , that said would also be more pressure to replace him this year as well with someone who could handle some of the load anyways ... maybe Keke Coutee in the 5th could be a guy to look at ... has speed and quickness and pretty decent hands a clutch player for Maholmes at Tex Tech ... that said he is only 5'11 -180 and may have issues off press coverage in the NFL ?

43Hitman

04-04-2018, 06:07 AM

I would not be opposed to it if the compensation was right because he is on the last year of his rookie deal , that said would also be more pressure to replace him this year as well with someone who could handle some of the load anyways ... maybe Keke Coutee in the 5th could be a guy to look at ... has speed and quickness and pretty decent hands a clutch player for Maholmes at Tex Tech ... that said he is only 5'11 -180 and may have issues off press coverage in the NFL ?

Eh, if that is our only option, then I would just prefer to keep Bryant this year. I would hate to see some other team get all the fruits of our labor a year early.

teegre

04-04-2018, 07:12 AM

if it mandates a move up to get him we most likely wont ( or even should bother trying ) to get him , we simply do not have the needed selections to make any such move already down a quality pick in rd 4 and no 6th any moves we make are likely down

Oh, I agree. I’d rather stay put, and draft whomever remains. Because, the Steelers have no “glaring” holes, and thus, they could go in any number of directions (ILB, S, TE, QB, OLB... OG, RB). As in: the Steelers don’t have to be pigeon-holed into one position/one player.

teegre

04-04-2018, 07:28 AM

El-Gonzo Jackson

04-04-2018, 08:20 AM

As far as trading Bryant goes, remember that when he leaves, he’ll likely get a huge contract... and this, we’ll get a R4 comp pick. So, it’s probably better to just keep him, hope he has a stellar season, and get the comp pick in 2019.

Option 1:
Trade Bryant for a R4 pick

Option 2:
Get one more year from Bryant
Get a R4 comp pick

I like the idea of trading him and getting something of value before he leaves. With all the talk about how great he is and what a big season he will have, do you think that other NFL teams would maybe value him more and possibly offer a 2nd round pick? Look at what NE got in the Cooks deal and from what so many say here, Bryant appears to be so more impactful of a WR than Brandin Cooks.

teegre

04-04-2018, 10:19 AM

I like the idea of trading him and getting something of value before he leaves. With all the talk about how great he is and what a big season he will have, do you think that other NFL teams would maybe value him more and possibly offer a 2nd round pick? Look at what NE got in the Cooks deal and from what so many say here, Bryant appears to be so more impactful of a WR than Brandin Cooks.

Here are my thoughts:

Bryant has shown that he can be insanely good. A few seasons ago, there was a stat that the differential between Bryant playing and not playing was a difference of TEN points per game. That is unheard of.

But... he hadn’t been that guy for two years. And more importantly, one more suspension, and Bryant is gone for a long, long time.

SUMMATION:
I think a R4 is about all that we’d get for Bryant... which is basically the same as what we’d get as a comp pick. (Ergo, we might as well keep him for one more season.)

El-Gonzo Jackson

04-04-2018, 10:31 AM

Here are my thoughts:

Bryant has shown that he can be insanely good. A few seasons ago, there was a stat that the differential between Bryant playing and not playing was a difference of TEN points per game. That is unheard of.

But... he hadn’t been that guy for two years. And more importantly, one more suspension, and Bryant is gone for a long, long time.

SUMMATION:
I think a R4 is about all that we’d get for Bryant... which is basically the same as what we’d get as a comp pick. (Ergo, we might as well keep him for one more season.)

OK, was just curious on your thoughts if you were under selling him. All this talk of how great he is and then the estimation that he is only worth a 4th round pick.

Charlie Casserly on NFLN last night said that Cooks was a better fit in the Rams locker room than Odell Beckham would be (and less $$). He emphasized how important it is that a guy fit in the locker room. IMO, the Steelers locker room sounds like its full of big egos, but I still hope it doesn't have pouting Bongtavis Bryant this season. Hopefully he just keeps it business for the year and isn't a distraction.

As for LVE, I still wonder if the kid projects better to OLB. He seemed to get caught up on blocks inside a lot on his video and if the Steelers use their OLB in coverage more, that is his best strength.

Mojouw

04-04-2018, 10:39 AM

https://youtu.be/ELTFWbNjl38

An interesting "negative" take on LVE. Basically says he can be a good LB BUT he is not currently due to an inability to take on and shed blockers with proper technique.

In contrast, Evans appears far more polished and technically advanced as a player -- https://youtu.be/5R9LEBZxac4 -- look at around 7:20 or so and I think it highlights the difference. Evans just slips the OL block and finds the ball. LVE appears to end up on his butt far too often in that situation.

But goodness goodness that size and speed of LVE is just really really enticing...can he be taught what he doesn't know and how quickly can he apply it?

Mojouw

04-04-2018, 10:45 AM

Here are my thoughts:

Bryant has shown that he can be insanely good. A few seasons ago, there was a stat that the differential between Bryant playing and not playing was a difference of TEN points per game. That is unheard of.

But... he hadn’t been that guy for two years. And more importantly, one more suspension, and Bryant is gone for a long, long time.

SUMMATION:
I think a R4 is about all that we’d get for Bryant... which is basically the same as what we’d get as a comp pick. (Ergo, we might as well keep him for one more season.)

If Jags playoff game Bryant shows up for all of 2018 - look the heck out. Those were some pretty darn good DBs he made just look foolish.

As for signing him, I'm not certain that it is a total foregone conclusion that he is out the door. I think it is by far the most likely scenario. But...But...

1. Steelers gave Ben his roster bonus for 2018 already so they are most likely NOT extending him this season. So his extension likely comes next off-season.
2. Ben tells Colbert "OK - I'll give you the hometown discount, but you keep the band together."
3. Colbert tells Ben, well I can't keep Bell here because they don't make a dump truck big enough to carry all the money he wants. Ben, says "Fine, get me Bryant".
4. They offer Bryant a version of the first contract extension that AB signed - when he took Mike Wallace's money.

Do I honestly think that happens? No, I don't. But it is possible. If Bryant starts having "fun" on the football field again it may totally change what he prioritizes in a contract/FA situation.

steelreserve

04-04-2018, 01:07 PM

But goodness goodness that size and speed of LVE is just really really enticing...can he be taught what he doesn't know and how quickly can he apply it?

NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO NONONONONONONONONONONONONONO

NOT AGAIN!!!!!!!

Shoes

04-04-2018, 01:28 PM

If Jags playoff game Bryant shows up for all of 2018 - look the heck out. Those were some pretty darn good DBs he made just look foolish.

As for signing him, I'm not certain that it is a total foregone conclusion that he is out the door. I think it is by far the most likely scenario. But...But...

1. Steelers gave Ben his roster bonus for 2018 already so they are most likely NOT extending him this season. So his extension likely comes next off-season.
2. Ben tells Colbert "OK - I'll give you the hometown discount, but you keep the band together."
3. Colbert tells Ben, well I can't keep Bell here because they don't make a dump truck big enough to carry all the money he wants. Ben, says "Fine, get me Bryant".
4. They offer Bryant a version of the first contract extension that AB signed - when he took Mike Wallace's money.

Do I honestly think that happens? No, I don't. But it is possible.If Bryant starts having "fun" on the football field again it may totally change what he prioritizes in a contract/FA situation.
Agreed, The "fun" part is key imo, the guy has been one bundle of nerves for a number of reasons. I don't think the Steelers will trade him (2018), I believe Colbert has already made that clear.

teegre

04-04-2018, 06:13 PM

OK, was just curious on your thoughts if you were under selling him. All this talk of how great he is and then the estimation that he is only worth a 4th round pick.

Charlie Casserly on NFLN last night said that Cooks was a better fit in the Rams locker room than Odell Beckham would be (and less $$). He emphasized how important it is that a guy fit in the locker room. IMO, the Steelers locker room sounds like its full of big egos, but I still hope it doesn't have pouting Bongtavis Bryant this season. Hopefully he just keeps it business for the year and isn't a distraction.

As for LVE, I still wonder if the kid projects better to OLB. He seemed to get caught up on blocks inside a lot on his video and if the Steelers use their OLB in coverage more, that is his best strength.

BRYANT:
It’s a risk/reward scenario. There is Bryant’s high ceiling (exemplified by his playoff games) but also his low floor (suspensions). I don’t see another team taking on that risk, but since he’s already a Steeler (we don’t have to trade for him) the risk is minimized. In other words, we already used that R4 draft pick five years ago (we already took our “risk”); whereas, any team trading for him would be risking a R4 right now. Make sense?

In a contract year, most guys “shut up & play”... except for the really dumb ones. Oh... right. :lol:

LVE:
Excellent suggestion. He is excellent in coverage. My only concern would be his pass-rush moves (does he even have any???).

teegre

04-04-2018, 07:59 PM

My bad!!!

Neither Tomlin nor Colbert had dinner with LVE.

It was only Olsavsky.

BlackAndGold

04-04-2018, 09:13 PM

My bad!!!

Neither Tomlin nor Colbert had dinner with LVE.

It was only Olsavsky.

https://media.giphy.com/media/l41lO8vRXzSB0CkqQ/giphy.gif

teegre

04-04-2018, 09:26 PM

https://media.giphy.com/media/l41lO8vRXzSB0CkqQ/giphy.gif

In my defense, Tomlin & Colbert were supposed to be there, but his flight was delayed due to weather...

BlackAndGold

04-04-2018, 09:39 PM

In my defense, Tomlin & Colbert were supposed to be there, but his flight was delayed due to weather...

:chuckle:

But still.
http://cdn.teamcococdn.com/file/0491_yourefired-52818c617e589.gif

teegre

04-04-2018, 09:51 PM

:chuckle:

But still.
http://cdn.teamcococdn.com/file/0491_yourefired-52818c617e589.gif

I, uh, still haven’t received my paycheck... and they took my stapler...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRX9WfbBltk&app=desktop

hawaiiansteeler

04-04-2018, 11:34 PM

My bad!!!

Neither Tomlin nor Colbert had dinner with LVE.

It was only Olsavsky.

if you could please put more research into these rumors before posting:

https://media1.tenor.com/images/bc7a8e060496a6b889c9100c20dce14e/tenor.gif?itemid=7919962

teegre

04-05-2018, 07:00 PM

if you could please put more research into these rumors before posting:

https://media1.tenor.com/images/bc7a8e060496a6b889c9100c20dce14e/tenor.gif?itemid=7919962

It’s what the fax said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E_SDwUM4kM&app=desktop

pczach

04-06-2018, 04:25 AM

It’s what the fax said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E_SDwUM4kM&app=desktop

There really are no excuses for this kind of irresponsible reporting on your part.

Clearly you should be able to read minds and back check sources of anyone with a computer and a keyboard.

I have very limited time right now, so I can't waste my time reading inaccurate posts!

:toofunny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsIoP6hRjas

teegre

04-06-2018, 09:13 AM

There really are no excuses for this kind of irresponsible reporting on your part.

Clearly you should be able to read minds and back check sources of anyone with a computer and a keyboard.

I have very limited time right now, so I can't waste my time reading inaccurate posts!

:toofunny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsIoP6hRjas

Duuude... it’s not that I’m inaccurate. I’m just not motivated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgg9byUy-V4&app=desktop

Mojouw

04-06-2018, 09:38 AM

This thread is a treasure.

st33lersguy

04-06-2018, 03:37 PM

NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO NONONONONONONONONONONONONONO

NOT AGAIN!!!!!!!

Agreed, enough of the guys that "can" be good that this defensive coaching staff won't be able to turn good

teegre

04-06-2018, 05:03 PM

Agreed, enough of the guys that "can" be good that this defensive coaching staff won't be able to turn good

There are two ILBs ready to play on day one: Roquan Smith and Rashaan Evans. The rest come with “warts” and/or will need time to develop.

And, Watt wasn’t a finished product... still isn’t. They’ve done well with him.

86WARD

04-06-2018, 05:34 PM

There are two ILBs ready to play on day one: Roquan Smith and Rashaan Evans. The rest come with “warts” and/or will need time to develop.

And, Watt wasn’t a finished product... still isn’t. They’ve done well with him.

I think Evans is the only option available at that 28 spot...

Texasteel

04-06-2018, 06:20 PM

The odds are that either LVE or Rashaan Evans will fall to 28.

It has been yeeeears since more than 3 ILBs were drafted in the first round. Smith, Edmunds, LVE, and Evans... one of them "has" to be there at 28.

I think you are right. I've been thinking Evans, but would not be disappointed with LVE, then a safety in the second,,,,,,, maybe.

Shoes

04-06-2018, 07:08 PM

Is anyone one getting the feeling Evans might be like Jarvis Jones? I read somewhere his SPARQ numbers were Jarvis Jones like.

teegre

04-06-2018, 08:21 PM

I think Evans is the only option available at that 28 spot...

Smith is gone for sure gone.
Edmunds is rumored to go even higher.
LVE has become the “darling of the dance”.

Yep, Evans is the odd man out.

teegre

04-06-2018, 08:31 PM

I think you are right. I've been thinking Evans, but would not be disappointed with LVE, then a safety in the second,,,,,,, maybe.

Similarly, LVE has been my man crush, but him meeting with a dozen (or more) teams tells me that he will not be there at 28... and, I would not be disappointed with Evans.

teegre

04-06-2018, 08:41 PM

Is anyone one getting the feeling Evans might be like Jarvis Jones? I read somewhere his SPARQ numbers were Jarvis Jones like.

Interesting.

Both were on loaded defenses.

Those spider-pizza graphs that mojoUW posts show that Jones & Evans have very similar builds/athletic ability.

But...

Jarvis got his sacks via scheme. Evans makes plays on his own.

Born2Steel

04-06-2018, 08:43 PM

teegre

04-06-2018, 11:45 PM

Born2Steel

04-07-2018, 02:24 AM

I agree 100%. Players are going to drop into our laps. (I wrote about this; it’ll be out on Thursday.)

As far as Roquan Smith goes... with the Dolphins and Da Raidahs both needing ILBs, I dint see him getting past them.

Agreed in logic and principle. But there's still that chance....

pczach

04-07-2018, 09:16 AM

I expect 6 QBs, and 5 OL in the 1st. This pushes a bunch of defense our way hopefully. Add in a few from WR, TE, and RB, and we should see one of our guys fall to 28. With several teams taking a safety or CB, I think we are guaranteed a tough choice between a few players we could use right now. I think even Smith, or Landry could happen.

You never know what's going to happen in the draft. Almost nothing can be ruled out.

Teams panic and reach for players at a position of need. Quarterbacks are always going to go high. Pass rushers are always in demand, and safeties have become the defensive white unicorn that everyone is searching for defensively.

The other thing to remember is that we have seen great players do something stupid or have something released to the press the day before the draft that makes them drop.

There's always a chance.

Shoes

04-07-2018, 10:55 AM

You never know what's going to happen in the draft. Almost nothing can be ruled out.

Teams panic and reach for players at a position of need. Quarterbacks are always going to go high. Pass rushers are always in demand, and safeties have become the defensive white unicorn that everyone is searching for defensively.

The other thing to remember is that we have seen great players do something stupid or have something released to the press the day before the draft that makes them drop.

There's always a chance.

:salute:

Mojouw

04-07-2018, 11:21 AM

Agreed, enough of the guys that "can" be good that this defensive coaching staff won't be able to turn good

Yeah, let's go back to drafting guys with a track record of amazing college stats. Just like the eye-popping #'s that Jarvis Jones put up!

Seriously, everyone acts like there have been all these "raw athlete" busts or something. Who have they been?

Shazier was a bit raw and needed seasoning and everyone complained that he wasn't Mosley. Mosley is a very good player in his own right, but whenever he has been healthy Shazier has clearly been the vastly more impactful player.

Bell was another choice based on projecting athletic traits to the next level. Universally slammed for not being Eddie Lacy or perhaps Arthur Brown. Feel like a lot of crow needs to be dished out on that one.

Athlete needed polish and coaching is EVERY WR drafted since I can't remember when. That has been working pretty well.

Hargrave, Tuitt, and Heyward all came into the league as not entirely finished products and have been transformed into really good players.

So I assume everyone is thinking of Dupree and Burns, right? Maybe Sean Davis? All 3 are far from "busts". They are all slightly above average (no seriously - look it up) NFL starters entering either their 3rd or 4th year. That is not bad. Not as good as could be hoped for and less than what was planned for all three -- but it is far from some nightmarish run of picks.

One really bad miss on an "athlete" was Shamarko. But he also had solid college production. The draft is a crapshoot unless you can pick in the top 10.

Dwinsgames

04-07-2018, 11:45 AM

Yeah, let's go back to drafting guys with a track record of amazing college stats. Just like the eye-popping #'s that Jarvis Jones put up!

Seriously, everyone acts like there have been all these "raw athlete" busts or something. Who have they been?

Shazier was a bit raw and needed seasoning and everyone complained that he wasn't Mosley. Mosley is a very good player in his own right, but whenever he has been healthy Shazier has clearly been the vastly more impactful player.

Bell was another choice based on projecting athletic traits to the next level. Universally slammed for not being Eddie Lacy or perhaps Arthur Brown. Feel like a lot of crow needs to be dished out on that one.

Athlete needed polish and coaching is EVERY WR drafted since I can't remember when. That has been working pretty well.

Hargrave, Tuitt, and Heyward all came into the league as not entirely finished products and have been transformed into really good players.

So I assume everyone is thinking of Dupree and Burns, right? Maybe Sean Davis? All 3 are far from "busts". They are all slightly above average (no seriously - look it up) NFL starters entering either their 3rd or 4th year. That is not bad. Not as good as could be hoped for and less than what was planned for all three -- but it is far from some nightmarish run of picks.

One really bad miss on an "athlete" was Shamarko. But he also had solid college production. The draft is a crapshoot unless you can pick in the top 10.

last 15 years of Steelers 1st round picks

Bold is BIG hit or on track to be ....

RED is big miss

Green is meh not a bust but certainly not 1st round worthy

Kendall Simmons
Troy Polamalu
Ben Roethlisberger
Heath Miller
Santonio Holmes
Lawrence Timmons
Rashard Mendenhall
Ziggy Hood
Maurkice Pouncey
Cameron Hayward
David DeCastro
Jarvis Jones
Ryan Shazier
Bud Dupree
Artie Burns
T.J. Watt

so about 61% hit rate of getting a great player

about a 34% chance of getting a guy who can be semi productive or productive

about a 14% bust rate

Mojouw

04-07-2018, 11:50 AM

last 15 years of Steelers 1st round picks

Bold is BIG hit or on track to be ....

RED is big miss

Green is meh not a bust but certainly not 1st round worthy

Kendall Simmons
Troy Polamalu
Ben Roethlisberger
Heath Miller
Santonio Holmes
Lawrence Timmons
Rashard Mendenhall
Ziggy Hood
Maurkice Pouncey
Cameron Hayward
David DeCastro
Jarvis Jones
Ryan Shazier
Bud Dupree
Artie Burns
T.J. Watt

I agree with that. So where does this "drafting raw athletes is a terrible idea" narrative come from? The two red names on that list were actually drafted due to production OVER athleticism...

El-Gonzo Jackson

04-08-2018, 10:04 AM

pczach

04-08-2018, 11:10 AM

How do people categorize an interior defensive lineman that has a 9 year career, 73 career starts and appeared in 169 NFL games as a bust? Busts are not starting 13 games a season in their 9th year in the NFL. They are usually driving a UPS truck by then. :coffee:

I just think that too many times, fans don't live in reality. Their fanatical interest in the team gives them a much lower opinion of players that don't live up to their draft status. Also, the expectations of that fan is what ultimately shapes their opinion of the player and sometimes the man. When I hear people say that someone isn't playing well because they are lazy or not trying hard enough, I cringe. Things like that are something that is the case in very rare circumstances in the NFL. Most of these young men work their asses off to be the best players they can be. Personal attacks on a player with zero actual knowledge is infuriating and completely unfair. Maybe if more people actually tried to play this game, they would realize how difficult it is to play at a high level instead of sitting behind a keyboard ripping people they don't know in any way, shape, manner, or form.

Let's also not forget that sometimes it's not the players fault. Sometimes a team drafts a guy like Ziggy Hood who was an effective DT in a 4-3 scheme, and plays him out of position because they projected him to be able to make that change. That isn't the player's fault. That is a mistake in scouting and drafting.

Anyone who plays 9 years in the NFL is not a bust. The word bust is thrown around far too casually for my taste.

teegre

04-08-2018, 11:12 AM

re: Kendall Simmons
The dude was a good pick, who had the worst luck ever.

As a rookie, he was diagnosed with diabetes. During his second season, he blew out his knee. He was fine in 2005. In 2006, he tore an Achilles... and, during his rehab something went wrong (frostbite).

After all of those injuries, Yes... he went from good to average.

Shoes

04-08-2018, 11:27 AM

I just think that too many times, fans don't live in reality. Their fanatical interest in the team gives them a much lower opinion of players that don't live up to their draft status. Also, the expectations of that fan is what ultimately shapes their opinion of the player and sometimes the man. When I hear people say that someone isn't playing well because they are lazy or not trying hard enough, I cringe. Things like that are something that is the case in very rare circumstances in the NFL. Most of these young men work their asses off to be the best players they can be. Personal attacks on a player with zero actual knowledge is infuriating and completely unfair. Maybe if more people actually tried to play this game, they would realize how difficult it is to play at a high level instead of sitting behind a keyboard ripping people they don't know in any way, shape, manner, or form.

Let's also not forget that sometimes it's not the players fault. Sometimes a team drafts a guy like Ziggy Hood who was an effective DT in a 4-3 scheme, and plays him out of position because they projected him to be able to make that change. That isn't the player's fault. That is a mistake in scouting and drafting.

Anyone who plays 9 years in the NFL is not a bust. The word bust is thrown around far too casually for my taste.

I agree & disagree with you. Being lazy exists in every occupation under the sun, NFL football is no exception. While most people work hard, there will always be those who think they can get by on natural ability without putting in the extra work regardless of the occupation.

pczach

04-08-2018, 12:54 PM

I agree & disagree with you. Being lazy exists in every occupation under the sun, NFL football is no exception. While most people work hard, there will always be those who think they can get by on natural ability without putting in the extra work regardless of the occupation.

You're right....there is. The problem is you are missing on something. While there may be a fairly high percentage of slackers or workers not giving their all at lower levels of employment, at the very highest levels of any profession, there isn't much of that at all. The work that is involved to get to the pinnacle of your profession in the first place usually dictates that good work habits go hand-in-hand with that.

There are always going to be some that aren't grinders. People that rely on their God-given talents and abilities that don't maximize that talent. However, at the highest levels of any profession it is very rare, and most of those that aren't willing to do the work get weeded out quickly.

The problem is, you have fans making accusations when they don't have the slightest idea of what the players preparation or practice habits are like. Unless it is something that is public knowledge because the coach or organization challenges the player publicly, fans literally have no idea what they're talking about when they make accusations. I have a problem with that.

People on this board call Bud Dupree lazy and say that he doesn't try. I haven't heard that said about him from anyone that matters. No coaches, people within the organization, the press.......nobody. Yet yahoos here choose to insult him and make accusations about him. It's idiotic and just plain silly and rude unless you have concrete evidence. Not living up to the expectations of a fan doesn't qualify as concrete evidence.

Just my humble opinion.

Dwinsgames

04-08-2018, 01:37 PM

You're right....there is. The problem is you are missing on something. While there may be a fairly high percentage of slackers or workers not giving their all at lower levels of employment, at the very highest levels of any profession, there isn't much of that at all. The work that is involved to get to the pinnacle of your profession in the first place usually dictates that good work habits go hand-in-hand with that.

There are always going to be some that aren't grinders. People that rely on their God-given talents and abilities that don't maximize that talent. However, at the highest levels of any profession it is very rare, and most of those that aren't willing to do the work get weeded out quickly.

The problem is, you have fans making accusations when they don't have the slightest idea of what the players preparation or practice habits are like. Unless it is something that is public knowledge because the coach or organization challenges the player publicly, fans literally have no idea what they're talking about when they make accusations. I have a problem with that.

People on this board call Bud Dupree lazy and say that he doesn't try. I haven't heard that said about him from anyone that matters. No coaches, people within the organization, the press.......nobody. Yet yahoos here choose to insult him and make accusations about him. It's idiotic and just plain silly and rude unless you have concrete evidence. Not living up to the expectations of a fan doesn't qualify as concrete evidence.

Just my humble opinion.

sort of why I hate the term Bust ....

I mean who determines if a player is a bust ?

what qualifies one as such ?

I get the premise that it is a player who fails to achieve the desired outcome on the field of play at the next level ...

ok cool I understand and agree to a degree , BUT ( here comes that BIG little word )

we are then using a set outcome of greatness as the standard for a player that has only been projected to meet any such standard ...

projections are perhaps the most unreliable thing in sports .

there literally is not a tool in the world that can accurately project greatness

we look at tendencies , athletic prowess , size , speed and accomplishments at a lower level of competition as the factors into an equation that fails identify future growth on much more of anything than someone gut feeling

then when that gut feeling of said evaluators is wrong instead of blaming the evaluators we instead label the player ( who clearly spent his entire life trying to be great ) to even be in the position to be looked at by said evaluators

and we call that player a Bust ....

do you think there is anyone on earth that feels worse about not succeeding at the highest level as that player who now instead of getting paid a kings ransom to continue to play the game they love is now instead called a failure by most of the free world who loves the game ...

I could go on and on about it but I think its clear enough now for most to get where I am coming from

teegre

04-08-2018, 09:49 PM

Texasteel

04-09-2018, 09:38 AM

What’s crazy is that Ziggy Hood worked his tail off in order to improve... like a “James Harrison / AB” level of dedication.

Might that tell us that he hit his max early? I'm not going to say that he was God awful, but he didn't look to me to be getting much better with all his work.

El-Gonzo Jackson

04-09-2018, 09:48 AM

Might that tell us that he hit his max early? I'm not going to say that he was God awful, but he didn't look to me to be getting much better with all his work.

Tex, I think he was out of position and scheme and didn't adapt to the 3-4 well. He was dominating at the Senior Bowl week and O linemen and coaches were just raving about him. But, he was a 4-3DT that was used to playing a 1 gap scheme and with his strength, quickness and energy to disrupt plays. The Steelers made him into a 3-4 DE, handle 2 gaps and put on weight to play the position. He filled a need, but just wasn't a stellar 5 tech player, but likely still a 3 technique player. Still, this year will be his 10th in the league.....hardly a bust IMO.