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View Full Version : Tomlin to take DERRIUS GUICE out to dinner



teegre
03-26-2018, 09:05 AM
I know, I know: this is really just ANOTHER Le’Veon Bell thread. But...


Tomlin & Colbert are taking Guice out to dinner, before attending Guice’s Pro Day on April 4th. (I forgot to include Colbert in the title.)

They also had a formal meeting with Guice at the Combine.

One of the main mock draft guys had said (I don’t remember which one) averred that Guice would 100% be the pick if he was there at 28.

Dinners mean a lot:
http://www.thepointofpittsburgh.com/dinner-takes-all-meals-influence-the-2015-nfl-draft/

Mojouw
03-26-2018, 10:06 AM
I like Guice as a prospect and think that he can have great success. If you want to find a weakness in his game, you can maybe talk about pass blocking.

However, I have a hard time seeing the Steelers go that way at #1. If for no other reason than that it just seems far more savage than I can ever remember the team being...

DesertSteel
03-26-2018, 10:32 AM
People had a hard time seeing the Steelers taking a WR in R2 last year also........ Now that there are stop gaps at ILB and S, I can see them splurging on Guice in R1 and going defense for most of the rest of the draft.

Born2Steel
03-26-2018, 10:53 AM
BPA. Due diligence is what this is. Guice may very well fall to 28 or 60. I would not be surprised(much) if 2 of the top 3 picks were on offense. We have zero depth at WR, TE, and RB. Ben has a 2 year contract currently. Add in that Colbert doesn't sound overly thrilled with this LB class, and anything can happen.

SteelMember
03-26-2018, 11:01 AM
If the Steelers do decide to go RB, I would have no problem with Guice in the 1st. Although, getting Chubb in the 2nd, with similar measurables could be just as good. Still giving yourself the first round pick for defense...

teegre
03-26-2018, 11:18 AM
I like Guice as a prospect and think that he can have great success. If you want to find a weakness in his game, you can maybe talk about pass blocking.

However, I have a hard time seeing the Steelers go that way at #1. If for no other reason than that it just seems far more savage than I can ever remember the team being...

1997 Rod Woodson was not a happy camper.

On draft day, the Steelers drafted Chad Scott AND signed Donnell Woolford.

We could be seeing the same kind of poker hand being played in April...

tube517
03-26-2018, 11:22 AM
Guice > Juice ???? :chuckle:

steelreserve
03-26-2018, 11:28 AM
Less talked about: Tomlin had lunch at Taco Bell.

Born2Steel
03-26-2018, 12:06 PM
Less talked about: Tomlin had lunch at Taco Bell.

That wasn't lunch, that was 4th meal.

Mojouw
03-26-2018, 12:08 PM
1997 Rod Woodson was not a happy camper.

On draft day, the Steelers drafted Chad Scott AND signed Donnell Woolford.

We could be seeing the same kind of poker hand being played in April...

I'd forgotten about that!! Be interesting to see how much of this is "leverage" in negotiations -- both Bell and Colbert have made fairly bold statements.

steelreserve
03-26-2018, 01:02 PM
I'd forgotten about that!! Be interesting to see how much of this is "leverage" in negotiations -- both Bell and Colbert have made fairly bold statements.

I don't think that'll do much.

This is all going exactly according to Bell's script - looking at other RBs -> we're disrespecting him -> drama -> thump his chest on social media about how everyone knows he's the best -> no contract -> drama -> big baller -> big rapper -> biggest drama in the FA market next offseason -> big money -> big baller -> big rapper

So that's pretty neat.

teegre
03-26-2018, 01:20 PM
I'd forgotten about that!! Be interesting to see how much of this is "leverage" in negotiations -- both Bell and Colbert have made fairly bold statements.

The Steelers and the Giants have made trades before. And, during the 2014 draft, Tomlin reeeally wanted ODB. So, I’ll just put this idea out there...

Trade a disgruntled Bell for a disgruntled ODB.

Both players (and teams) get a fresh start.

Shoes
03-26-2018, 01:27 PM
Guice & Tomlin should do a rap duo and send it to Bell.

Steeldude
03-26-2018, 01:27 PM
Maybe a 4th round pick for him, maybe. Isn't he rather injury prone? He doesn't have much burst. I read his SPARQ number is rather low too. He looks like an average RB.

Mojouw
03-26-2018, 01:48 PM
The Steelers and the Giants have made trades before. And, during the 2014 draft, Tomlin reeeally wanted ODB. So, I’ll just put this idea out there...

Trade a disgruntled Bell for a disgruntled ODB.

Both players (and teams) get a fresh start.

I mean it would be a sight to behold in the passing game. But the Steelers struggled to fit Bell's tag # under the cap. ODB wants 20+ per year.

I just don't see the Steelers paying ODB more than AB. I mean if you want to give that much cash to another weapon in the offense -- just sign Bell for something between 14 and 20 with an escape hatch for the team in 3 years and call it a day.

Mojouw
03-26-2018, 01:56 PM
I don't think that'll do much.

This is all going exactly according to Bell's script - looking at other RBs -> we're disrespecting him -> drama -> thump his chest on social media about how everyone knows he's the best -> no contract -> drama -> big baller -> big rapper -> biggest drama in the FA market next offseason -> big money -> big baller -> big rapper

So that's pretty neat.

Meh. It is and has been the same script for almost every outsized NFL contract dispute ever. ODB and the Giants have been taking pot-shots at each other over the last year or so. Dez Bryant and the Cowboys were in the news recently. Earl Thomas walked into the Cowboys locker-room post-game to tell them to trade/sign him if Seattle continued to "disrespect" him. The list goes on and on.

None of the statements offered in the media by either side should really be taken as true and final positions. Remember, Burnett was only going to sign for $8 million or more as recently as the combine.

All Colbert is doing is reminding Bell and his camp who is holding the most leverage. It is the team and always has been.

For me the most interesting part would be if they draft a big-time RB. Then I honestly believe they will pull the tag and release Bell. Too many resources at the position if you draft a guy in the first two rounds this year.

Maybe they throw some cash at Bryant then?

teegre
03-26-2018, 01:57 PM
I mean it would be a sight to behold in the passing game. But the Steelers struggled to fit Bell's tag # under the cap. ODB wants 20+ per year.

I just don't see the Steelers paying ODB more than AB. I mean if you want to give that much cash to another weapon in the offense -- just sign Bell for something between 14 and 20 with an escape hatch for the team in 3 years and call it a day.

Oooooh... yeah. I didn’t realize that ODB wanted that much. :scared:

Nevermind.

steelreserve
03-26-2018, 02:09 PM
Meh. It is and has been the same script for almost every outsized NFL contract dispute ever. ODB and the Giants have been taking pot-shots at each other over the last year or so. Dez Bryant and the Cowboys were in the news recently. Earl Thomas walked into the Cowboys locker-room post-game to tell them to trade/sign him if Seattle continued to "disrespect" him. The list goes on and on.

None of the statements offered in the media by either side should really be taken as true and final positions. Remember, Burnett was only going to sign for $8 million or more as recently as the combine.

All Colbert is doing is reminding Bell and his camp who is holding the most leverage. It is the team and always has been.

For me the most interesting part would be if they draft a big-time RB. Then I honestly believe they will pull the tag and release Bell. Too many resources at the position if you draft a guy in the first two rounds this year.

Maybe they throw some cash at Bryant then?


First, I don't think we have any leverage. Bell is going to leave and that is that. We can make other plans without him - and we should, since that is what's going to happen - but that's not leverage. No one has any in this situation; it's all just a bunch of noise and the end result will be the same.

That's where I think things are at. It's not the "normal" posturing for NFL contract negotiations because it's not a negotiation at all. Bell wants to leave and flat-out has his mind made up, he won't come right out and say it yet, and in the meantime he feeds on the drama. It's not a real attempt to get a long-term deal, it's all part of the metagame for being the center of attention next offseason and making that into the biggest spectacle possible. He just may be competing with an even bigger ego and a bigger master of drama in ODB, though. Too bad for him.

hawaiiansteeler
03-26-2018, 02:20 PM
We could be seeing the same kind of poker hand being played in April...

:poker::cool:

teegre
03-26-2018, 02:21 PM
I read his SPARQ number is rather low too.

True.
Guice’s SPARQ score is in the lower third for RBs.

That said, the player with the highest SPARQ score ever is... Mike Mitchell.

Mojouw
03-26-2018, 02:33 PM
First, I don't think we have any leverage. Bell is going to leave and that is that. We can make other plans without him - and we should, since that is what's going to happen - but that's not leverage. No one has any in this situation; it's all just a bunch of noise and the end result will be the same.

That's where I think things are at. It's not the "normal" posturing for NFL contract negotiations because it's not a negotiation at all. Bell wants to leave and flat-out has his mind made up, he won't come right out and say it yet, and in the meantime he feeds on the drama. It's not a real attempt to get a long-term deal, it's all part of the metagame for being the center of attention next offseason and making that into the biggest spectacle possible. He just may be competing with an even bigger ego and a bigger master of drama in ODB, though. Too bad for him.

That very well may all be true. In 2018 - the team does have a ton of options and that is leverage enough for me. Bell has no options - he plays for 14.5 million or he doesn't.

Moving forward - who knows? Not me.

As for Bell's personal feelings, I honestly believe that if the Steelers gave him $15 million per year for 5 years with about 45 guaranteed he would sign. Roughly the 3 year version of the Sammy Watkins contract. Is either Watkins or Bell worth those figures? Not likely.

However, barring injury, Bell is going to get that kind of cash somewhere next off-season. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2019/ take those #'s and divide them in half to account for the 20-30 guys each team needs to sign between now and then. Long story short, over half the league is projected to have $20 million or more in cap space next off-season. Surely those #'s will change, but if large amounts of cap room drove goofy contracts to second tier players this off-season -- what would it do with Bell on the open market? Low end QB money for sure.

DesertSteel
03-26-2018, 05:21 PM
Maybe a 4th round pick for him, maybe. Isn't he rather injury prone? He doesn't have much burst. I read his SPARQ number is rather low too. He looks like an average RB.
I'd take a 7th round flier on him.

steelreserve
03-26-2018, 06:51 PM
That very well may all be true. In 2018 - the team does have a ton of options and that is leverage enough for me. Bell has no options - he plays for 14.5 million or he doesn't.

Moving forward - who knows? Not me.

As for Bell's personal feelings, I honestly believe that if the Steelers gave him $15 million per year for 5 years with about 45 guaranteed he would sign. Roughly the 3 year version of the Sammy Watkins contract. Is either Watkins or Bell worth those figures? Not likely.

However, barring injury, Bell is going to get that kind of cash somewhere next off-season. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2019/ take those #'s and divide them in half to account for the 20-30 guys each team needs to sign between now and then. Long story short, over half the league is projected to have $20 million or more in cap space next off-season. Surely those #'s will change, but if large amounts of cap room drove goofy contracts to second tier players this off-season -- what would it do with Bell on the open market? Low end QB money for sure.


Yeah, I don't doubt that Bell-Einstein will get a significant amount of money somewhere. Good for him. I'm 99% certain that it won't be here, and that whatever we offer him, he'll turn it down because he's convinced that his open-market value is "whatever the Steelers offer me plus a couple million more." I mean, some of the circular reasoning he was using when he was actually negotiating (if you can call it that) about his starting point being higher because the franchise tag is higher just made it clear as day that this is someone who has no interest in signing a contract this year; the grass will be greener no matter what offer he gets.

As far as this season goes, it's equally clear: He'll play for $14.5 million, do the minimum and be disgruntled, and make sure everyone knows it.

Knowing that, I think we'd be well served to get a better alternative than Conner or Ridley if we can. As an inconsiderate S.O.B., I think it'd be GREAT if we had him splitting time with a standout rookie during his contract year, and finishing with like 700 yards in 12 games.

Of course, that's as long as it doesn't come at a cost of messing up the defense. But I think we have to start planning now as if Bell-Einstein isn't going to be here for very long, so I will not be upset about it if we take a RB in rounds 1-2 even when there are other "more urgent" needs. This one is actually pretty urgent.

st33lersguy
03-26-2018, 07:59 PM
I wouldn't mind rb in round 1, but only if it is bpa considering it is one of the bigger needs

FrancoLambert
03-26-2018, 08:33 PM
The Steelers and the Giants have made trades before. And, during the 2014 draft, Tomlin reeeally wanted ODB. So, I’ll just put this idea out there...

Trade a disgruntled Bell for a disgruntled ODB.

Both players (and teams) get a fresh start.

No thanks. I'll pass.

We would be exchanging one primma dona for another.

I'm surrounded by Giants fans and many of them are growing sick of his antics and are OK if he's sent packing.

Sounds too familiar.

hawaiiansteeler
03-26-2018, 08:58 PM
I think we have to start planning now as if Bell-Einstein isn't going to be here for very long, so I will not be upset about it if we take a RB in rounds 1-2 even when there are other "more urgent" needs. This one is actually pretty urgent.

I think it's very urgent, we can't continue to let Bell-Einstein hold us hostage once again and go through the same bs we did last pre-season and then wait for him to get into playing shape the first couple of games. enough is enough, we all know Bell won't be here next season and it's time to plan for that inevitability.

BlackAndGold
03-26-2018, 10:34 PM
Rudolph/Lamar Jackson?, Guice, ILB, safety. So many ways they could possibly go, makes the draft exciting.

But I honestly doubt they take a RB highly. It's not like taking a WR early. There is almost always 3 to 4 WR's out on the field, sometime they go 5 wide. Tomlin also doesn't believe in a 1-2 punch at RB, meaning Guice won't be seeing many snaps..

And no, they won't pull the tag from Bell.

Hawkman
03-26-2018, 10:41 PM
Less talked about: Tomlin had lunch at Taco Bell.

But did he stay at a Holiday Inn?

Mojouw
03-26-2018, 10:44 PM
Yeah, I don't doubt that Bell-Einstein will get a significant amount of money somewhere. Good for him. I'm 99% certain that it won't be here, and that whatever we offer him, he'll turn it down because he's convinced that his open-market value is "whatever the Steelers offer me plus a couple million more." I mean, some of the circular reasoning he was using when he was actually negotiating (if you can call it that) about his starting point being higher because the franchise tag is higher just made it clear as day that this is someone who has no interest in signing a contract this year; the grass will be greener no matter what offer he gets.

As far as this season goes, it's equally clear: He'll play for $14.5 million, do the minimum and be disgruntled, and make sure everyone knows it.

Knowing that, I think we'd be well served to get a better alternative than Conner or Ridley if we can. As an inconsiderate S.O.B., I think it'd be GREAT if we had him splitting time with a standout rookie during his contract year, and finishing with like 700 yards in 12 games.

Of course, that's as long as it doesn't come at a cost of messing up the defense. But I think we have to start planning now as if Bell-Einstein isn't going to be here for very long, so I will not be upset about it if we take a RB in rounds 1-2 even when there are other "more urgent" needs. This one is actually pretty urgent.


I think it's very urgent, we can't continue to let Bell-Einstein hold us hostage once again and go through the same bs we did last pre-season and then wait for him to get into playing shape the first couple of games. enough is enough, we all know Bell won't be here next season and it's time to plan for that inevitability.

For me, this is the most interesting piece of the Steelers' decision making process. Do you replace Bell in this off-season cycle or wait until next? If it were up to me, I would try and wait until 2019 as I honestly believe that RB is the easiest position for a rookie to contribute in. It additionally buys you time to see if Conner is a "feature" back.

OPTION 1 (play Bell on the Tag)
2018 - Bell + Conner + Touissant/Low Round Draft Pick/UDFA
2019 - Conner + "premium" Draft Pick + Complementary RB

OPTION 2 (pull the tag)
2018 - Conner + "premium" Draft Pick + Touissant/Low Round Draft Pick/UDFA
2019 - Conner + 2018 Draft Pick + Complementary RB

Again, only my opinion, but pulling the tag and not rostering Bell for 2018 seems to be the least return on available resources in terms of current draft picks and cap dollars. Unless there is a wholly unexpected release, their isn't much left to spend $14.5 million on...OVerall, it will be a fascinating referendum on Rooney and Colbert's beliefs about roster and locker-room construction. Other than drafting a QB, it will be the decision they will be judged on in the short-term.

THey could go another way and send Bell to take Guice to dinner...?

Steeldude
03-27-2018, 03:42 AM
I wouldn't mind rb in round 1, but only if it is bpa considering it is one of the bigger needs

Barkley is the only RB that's worthy of a 1st round selection.

86WARD
03-27-2018, 07:03 AM
The Steelers and the Giants have made trades before. And, during the 2014 draft, Tomlin reeeally wanted ODB. So, I’ll just put this idea out there...

Trade a disgruntled Bell for a disgruntled ODB.

Both players (and teams) get a fresh start.

No way. However if the Giants trade OBJ to the Rams and clear cap space, I’d offer them the right to negotiate with Bell for that 2nd Pick and draft either Barkley or more likely a potential successor to Ben.

teegre
03-27-2018, 09:07 AM
No way. However if the Giants trade OBJ to the Rams and clear cap space, I’d offer them the right to negotiate with Bell for that 2nd Pick and draft either Barkley or more likely a potential successor to Ben.

I like this train of thought, except there is NO way we’d get the #2 overall pick.

First, Bell isn’t worth that much (not even Aaron Rodgers would net a top 5 pick). And, secondly, the Giants could simply keep their own pick & draft the younger, cheaper RB (Barkley).

Pick #34 is a possibility...

Dwinsgames
03-27-2018, 10:42 AM
put me down for Sony Michel the backup to Chubb ... better hands out of the backfield a do it all 3 down back who while a backup still managed 590 carries -3600+ yards rushing and 64 catches -621 yards 39 combined TDs all while backing up Chubb for 4 years at Georgia ... in round 2-3

BlackAndGold
03-27-2018, 10:57 AM
put me down for Sony Michel the backup to Chubb ... better hands out of the backfield a do it all 3 down back who while a backup still managed 590 carries -3600+ yards rushing and 64 catches -621 yards 39 combined TDs all while backing up Chubb for 4 years at Georgia ... in round 2-3

Could be this years Alvin Kamara. Hate saying this but he has 'Patriots' written all over him. They love those all around RB's.

- - - Updated - - -


I like this train of thought, except there is NO way we’d get the #2 overall pick.

First, Bell isn’t worth that much (not even Aaron Rodgers would net a top 5 pick). And, secondly, the Giants could simply keep their own pick & draft the younger, cheaper RB (Barkley).

Pick #34 is a possibility...

Agreed. If Guice was to be drafted at #28 I'm sure they'll talk to a few teams on day two that will pick in the early 2nd round.

SteelerFanInStl
03-27-2018, 11:55 AM
put me down for Sony Michel the backup to Chubb ... better hands out of the backfield a do it all 3 down back who while a backup still managed 590 carries -3600+ yards rushing and 64 catches -621 yards 39 combined TDs all while backing up Chubb for 4 years at Georgia ... in round 2-3

I agree. I like him much better than Guice or Chubb.

Mojouw
03-27-2018, 12:05 PM
No way. However if the Giants trade OBJ to the Rams and clear cap space, I’d offer them the right to negotiate with Bell for that 2nd Pick and draft either Barkley or more likely a potential successor to Ben.


I like this train of thought, except there is NO way we’d get the #2 overall pick.

First, Bell isn’t worth that much (not even Aaron Rodgers would net a top 5 pick). And, secondly, the Giants could simply keep their own pick & draft the younger, cheaper RB (Barkley).

Pick #34 is a possibility...




Agreed. If Guice was to be drafted at #28 I'm sure they'll talk to a few teams on day two that will pick in the early 2nd round.

Okay. This all doesn't make sense to me and most of what you all post around here usually does. So I need to understand the valuations that are being used here. I think it is along the following:

1. Bell is not worth (and maybe no RB) is worth 14-20 million per season on average.
2. However, RB production from "elite" 3 down guys who are threats running and receiving is vitally important to an NFL team and of high enough value to be considered "worthy" of a top 35-50 pick in the draft.
3. Bell is just such a RB as is described in Item 2.

So why is a RB worth the Steelers or any other team's first round or high second round pick, but not worth a second massive contract? I realize that RB's decline and often suddenly but it isn't like they are going to keel over at 27. Why would any team trade a top 35 draft pick for the right to pay Bell big $$$'s if that is a "stupid" decision for the Steelers? Wouldn't it be the same for any other team?

Almost every other position, elite guys are signed to second contracts that push out into that 10+ average annual value territory. Remember, like 5 years ago when no one paid guards? Now guys routinely get 10-13 million per year on 2nd and even 3rd contracts. Traditionally, offensive skill position guys are paid at higher rates - except RBs which have traditionally been viewed as disposable.

Bottom line, Bell is kind of an abrasive personality and I am not certain he is super duper smart or anything, but in a league where Randall Cobb gets paid 10 million per and Donte Moncrief got 9.6 million guaranteed and a variety of other 6-10 million per year contracts for guys who gain far less yards and player much fewer snaps than Bell; I'm not so sure that it is possible to just say "yeah -- anything over $12 million is just ridiculous to even contemplate."

I'll stop ranting, but I will ask the question as simply as I know how: If Bell is not worth much over $10-12 million per year -- why would anyone give up a draft pick to sign him for more than that? If he is worth a top 50 draft pick, why is he not worth the big contract?

hawaiiansteeler
03-27-2018, 12:16 PM
Barkley is the only RB that's worthy of a 1st round selection.

where we're picking at #28, it's almost like the early second round. and if we can select the 2nd best RB in the draft with that pick then it's pretty good value imo...

steelreserve
03-27-2018, 01:31 PM
For me, this is the most interesting piece of the Steelers' decision making process. Do you replace Bell in this off-season cycle or wait until next? If it were up to me, I would try and wait until 2019 as I honestly believe that RB is the easiest position for a rookie to contribute in. It additionally buys you time to see if Conner is a "feature" back.

OPTION 1 (play Bell on the Tag)
2018 - Bell + Conner + Touissant/Low Round Draft Pick/UDFA
2019 - Conner + "premium" Draft Pick + Complementary RB

OPTION 2 (pull the tag)
2018 - Conner + "premium" Draft Pick + Touissant/Low Round Draft Pick/UDFA
2019 - Conner + 2018 Draft Pick + Complementary RB

Again, only my opinion, but pulling the tag and not rostering Bell for 2018 seems to be the least return on available resources in terms of current draft picks and cap dollars. Unless there is a wholly unexpected release, their isn't much left to spend $14.5 million on...OVerall, it will be a fascinating referendum on Rooney and Colbert's beliefs about roster and locker-room construction. Other than drafting a QB, it will be the decision they will be judged on in the short-term.

THey could go another way and send Bell to take Guice to dinner...?


Whether we replace him now or later depends a lot on whether we think it's going to become a problem this season or not. We think we're going to get a full, productive season out of Bell-Einstein, we can wait until next year to bring in someone else. I think you're right that RB is one of the most "plug and play" positions in the game, where a rookie could come in and not be lost.

That would be the ideal situation, because whether we like it or not, drafting a RB now means we ARE giving up more this year than most. Either a blue-chip player for a dire need at LB, or a possible QB successor, for which the chance doesn't come along often.

I don't think Conner is going the long-term answer; he is a good change of pace back and would probably be an OK stopgap starter for a year, but I just don't see that special something. Pulling the franchise tag from Bell-Einstein would be useless because we don't have much to spend the money on.

To your other point later on - I don't doubt that Bell is worth $12M or more, and that the market for RBs is head-scratchingly low compared to other positions and their impact. I just don't think he's going to take our offer in any case. We've offered him that much and more. There's also the matter of the team's situation. Meaning that for a team with $60M in cap space, it might be worth it to sign Bell-Einstein for $17M of that. For a team with $6M in cap space, it is not only more difficult, but can start costing you in other ways too that make it less worth it. In any case, probably a moot point since I'm 99% sure his mind is already made up.

Fire Goodell
03-27-2018, 03:05 PM
If we pick a RB in round 1, it's a safe bet that the franchise tag is getting yanked and Bell is sent packing, which I don't mind if it happens.

Bell probably won't like it at all, but that's what you get for thinking you're bigger than the team.

steelreserve
03-27-2018, 04:12 PM
If we pick a RB in round 1, it's a safe bet that the franchise tag is getting yanked and Bell is sent packing, which I don't mind if it happens.

Bell probably won't like it at all, but that's what you get for thinking you're bigger than the team.

Why would we yank the franchise tag? It doesn't benefit us unless the cap space lets us bring in a big-time player, and there probably aren't going to be any by that point in the offseason. Maybe if it let us pull off a trade for a high-cost player, or someone becomes luckily available as a training camp cut. But more likely it just means Bell-Einstein plays out this season and is gone.

teegre
03-27-2018, 05:36 PM
Okay. This all doesn't make sense to me and most of what you all post around here usually does. So I need to understand the valuations that are being used here. I think it is along the following:

- - -

...not worth the big contract?

1. Other teams have more cap space. They can actually OVERpay for Bell’s services.

2. I get the feeling that Bell is pulling a Barry Bonds: rejecting EVERY offer, because he wants to be a free agent. His latest comment about wanting to be paid as much as AB ($17 million), when he knows that that is at least $2 million beyond the current offer signifies this. Why would he do that???... because, as #1 says: other teams can pay more.

3. Colbert is done with Bell. The final offer is out there, and Colbert is preparing to play the upcoming season as though Bell is not a part of the team (via Bell sitting out OR via Bell being traded).

SUMMATION:
If the Steelers draft Guice, they have the option of keeping Bell for one year... or, trading him. And, we are discussing the hypothetical (yet possible) trade scenarios.

For example:
Bell to the Colts (with their plethora of draft picks AND available cap space) makes sense for both teams.

DesertSteel
03-27-2018, 05:44 PM
The question is what teams are going to take a RB in R's 1-2? That will determine where a lot of the top 5 RBs fall. The 3-5 rated guys could all still be there when we pick at the end of 2, and one of them left in R3.

Mojouw
03-27-2018, 06:13 PM
1. Other teams have more cap space. They can actually OVERpay for Bell’s services.

2. I get the feeling that Bell is pulling a Barry Bonds: rejecting EVERY offer, because he wants to be a free agent. His latest comment about wanting to be paid as much as AB ($17 million), when he knows that that is at least $2 million beyond the current offer signifies this. Why would he do that???... because, as #1 says: other teams can pay more.

3. Colbert is done with Bell. The final offer is out there, and Colbert is preparing to play the upcoming season as though Bell is not a part of the team (via Bell sitting out OR via Bell being traded).

SUMMATION:
If the Steelers draft Guice, they have the option of keeping Bell for one year... or, trading him. And, we are discussing the hypothetical (yet possible) trade scenarios.

For example:
Bell to the Colts (with their plethora of draft picks AND available cap space) makes sense for both teams.

Okay. I can see some of that. I still haven't seen where Bell said the $17 million thing, but I'll just take everyone's word for it.

I just don't get the other teams will trade for him thing. They will just wait for Steelers to release him this year or next. This kinda reminds me of debates I used to have with people about Pouncey. There was a time where it was argued he was injury-prone, over-rated, and not worth his current and/or pending contract. But that same player would have teams lining up around the block to give 2nd or low 1st round picks to the Steelers for his services. If he indeed has that value and demand league-wide he is worth his contract.

Kinda sorta the same logic with Bell. I also get that the Steelers put their top offer on the table with guys and then they either take it or they don't. I guess it comes down to where the top of that offer really is. And we may never know that. But I just can't envision a single scenario where another franchise lines up to pay Bell a record contract AND gives the Steelers a top 35-50 draft pick to boot.

What leverage do the Steelers have in ANY trade negotiation? Absolutely none. Can't trade Bell if he doesn't sign the tag tender. If Bell doesn't like the trade destination, he can just not sign it. Teams can't negotiate (I mean we all know they would, but still...) with Bell by the letter of the law - so who knows how they would gauge his reaction.

And on top of that, it is like trying to sell a slightly used high end boat (Bell in this analogy) to your neighbor. Dude knows it is awesome. He also knows that you can't make the payments on it anymore. Knows that if he buys it off you he has to make payments on it - even if they are payments he can afford. Why would he also let you sleep with his wife (draft picks in this scenario) as a sweetener?

86WARD
03-27-2018, 06:30 PM
Okay. This all doesn't make sense to me and most of what you all post around here usually does. So I need to understand the valuations that are being used here. I think it is along the following:

1. Bell (and maybe no RB) is worth 14-20 million per season on average.
2. However, RB production from "elite" 3 down guys who are threats running and receiving is vitally important to an NFL team and of high enough value to be considered "worthy" of a top 35-50 pick in the draft.
3. Bell is just such a RB as is described in Item 2.

So why is a RB worth the Steelers or any other team's first round or high second round pick, but not worth a second massive contract? I realize that RB's decline and often suddenly but it isn't like they are going to keel over at 27. Why would any team trade a top 35 draft pick for the right to pay Bell big $$$'s if that is a "stupid" decision for the Steelers? Wouldn't it be the same for any other team?

Almost every other position, elite guys are signed to second contracts that push out into that 10+ average annual value territory. Remember, like 5 years ago when no one paid guards? Now guys routinely get 10-13 million per year on 2nd and even 3rd contracts. Traditionally, offensive skill position guys are paid at higher rates - except RBs which have traditionally been viewed as disposable.

Bottom line, Bell is kind of an abrasive personality and I am not certain he is super duper smart or anything, but in a league where Randall Cobb gets paid 10 million per and Donte Moncrief got 9.6 million guaranteed and a variety of other 6-10 million per year contracts for guys who gain far less yards and player much fewer snaps than Bell; I'm not so sure that it is possible to just say "yeah -- anything over $12 million is just ridiculous to even contemplate."

I'll stop ranting, but I will ask the question as simply as I know how: If Bell is not worth much over $10-12 million per year -- why would anyone give up a draft pick to sign him for more than that? If he is worth a top 50 draft pick, why is he not worth the big contract?

I am one of the few that thinks his value is in that $15M range. I’d have no problem giving him that kind of money. He’s a special talent that doesn’t come around every day and isn’t easily replaced. I just don’t see him being easily replaced.

As far as the second pick, Bell is arguably the best RB in the league and a proven talent. There’s nothing out there that says Barkley is the next Bell and there’s just as good a chance that Barkley could be the next KiJana Carter. It’s all unknown until these guys get onto the field, maybe they are in the right situation and he becomes the next Bell or maybe he’s not and he turns into KiJana Carter...there’s no history there and no NFL game tape as there is with Bell. Sure Bell costs a ton more but if the Giants are serious about unloading OBJ, they have the money and as OBJ would be a great poster child for the Rams new stadium, Bell would be a pretty nice player to throw up on a billboard in Times Square. I wouldn’t trade Bell for the 34th pick.

Mojouw
03-27-2018, 06:41 PM
I am one of the few that thinks his value is in that $15M range. I’d have no problem giving him that kind of money. He’s a special talent that doesn’t come around every day and isn’t easily replaced. I just don’t see him being easily replaced.

As far as the second pick, Bell is arguably the best RB in the league and a proven talent. There’s nothing out there that says Barkley is the next Bell and there’s just as good a chance that Barkley could be the next KiJana Carter. It’s all unknown until these guys get onto the field, maybe they are in the right situation and he becomes the next Bell or maybe he’s not and he turns into KiJana Carter...there’s no history there and no NFL game tape as there is with Bell. Sure Bell costs a ton more but if the Giants are serious about unloading OBJ, they have the money and as OBJ would be a great poster child for the Rams new stadium, Bell would be a pretty nice player to throw up on a billboard in Times Square. I wouldn’t trade Bell for the 34th pick.

Yeah, that I can easily understand. If Bell is worth $15 million then a high first round pick is a legit expectation in return.

Shoes
03-27-2018, 06:42 PM
I am one of the few that thinks his value is in that $15M range. I’d have no problem giving him that kind of money. He’s a special talent that doesn’t come around every day and isn’t easily replaced. I just don’t see him being easily replaced.

As far as the second pick, Bell is arguably the best RB in the league and a proven talent. There’s nothing out there that says Barkley is the next Bell and there’s just as good a chance that Barkley could be the next KiJana Carter. It’s all unknown until these guys get onto the field, maybe they are in the right situation and he becomes the next Bell or maybe he’s not and he turns into KiJana Carter...there’s no history there and no NFL game tape as there is with Bell. Sure Bell costs a ton more but if the Giants are serious about unloading OBJ, they have the money and as OBJ would be a great poster child for the Rams new stadium, Bell would be a pretty nice player to throw up on a billboard in Times Square. I wouldn’t trade Bell for the 34th pick.


Well you said it yourself, Bell wants AB money which is far over 15m. I think Art closed the books on this one anyway, he knows he's dealing with a moron.

Born2Steel
03-27-2018, 08:21 PM
I am one of the few that thinks his value is in that $15M range. I’d have no problem giving him that kind of money. He’s a special talent that doesn’t come around every day and isn’t easily replaced. I just don’t see him being easily replaced.

As far as the second pick, Bell is arguably the best RB in the league and a proven talent. There’s nothing out there that says Barkley is the next Bell and there’s just as good a chance that Barkley could be the next KiJana Carter. It’s all unknown until these guys get onto the field, maybe they are in the right situation and he becomes the next Bell or maybe he’s not and he turns into KiJana Carter...there’s no history there and no NFL game tape as there is with Bell. Sure Bell costs a ton more but if the Giants are serious about unloading OBJ, they have the money and as OBJ would be a great poster child for the Rams new stadium, Bell would be a pretty nice player to throw up on a billboard in Times Square. I wouldn’t trade Bell for the 34th pick.

This hits on my dilemma as well. Bell has more value to this offense than he does for other teams. Basically, this offense is run to use his talents in the most efficient way. A new RB takes time to get in sync with. This is why most fans are angry about Bell missing TC after all. There are two exemptions to the learning curve, speed and power. There don't seem to be any Barry Sanders or Earl Campbell in this draft though. To me, Bo Scarbrough is the most complete RB after Barkley in terms of speed AND power. I just don't know if either comes right in and picks up where Bell left off. Conner dropped passes he should have caught, and is non-existent as a pass blocker. Toussaint is a talented pass blocker but has shown nothing as a RB. So, if we miss with the draft pick, we are screwed in the run game. I do think a RB gets drafted again this year but not to replace Bell just yet. I'm thinking the Steelers force Bell to play one more season under the tag, and move on with Conner and new rookie RB, and possibly looking for another in next year's draft. I just don't think we can afford to not keep Bell at this point. Not if our sights are truly set on #7 now.

JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue
03-27-2018, 08:36 PM
If the Steelers do draft a rb and decide to go with him. I don't see them letting Bell walk and want something in return eventually in trade and don't blame them. I didn't care that they let Holmes go for next to nothing even when they was pissed at him and tired of his bs.

JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue
03-27-2018, 08:43 PM
I am one of the few that thinks his value is in that $15M range. I’d have no problem giving him that kind of money. He’s a special talent that doesn’t come around every day and isn’t easily replaced. I just don’t see him being easily replaced.

As far as the second pick, Bell is arguably the best RB in the league and a proven talent. There’s nothing out there that says Barkley is the next Bell and there’s just as good a chance that Barkley could be the next KiJana Carter. It’s all unknown until these guys get onto the field, maybe they are in the right situation and he becomes the next Bell or maybe he’s not and he turns into KiJana Carter...there’s no history there and no NFL game tape as there is with Bell. Sure Bell costs a ton more but if the Giants are serious about unloading OBJ, they have the money and as OBJ would be a great poster child for the Rams new stadium, Bell would be a pretty nice player to throw up on a billboard in Times Square. I wouldn’t trade Bell for the 34th pick. I'm with you and agree about Bell. Also understand about talented Penn State rbs flopping in the NFL. Barkley is the best all around Penn State rb I seen in the last 35 years. I doubt he will flop and for some reason see him being a NYC Giant after the draft. Get your point too and better going with a proven commodity

GBMelBlount
03-27-2018, 09:09 PM
I am one of the few that thinks his value is in that $15M range. I’d have no problem giving him that kind of money. He’s a special talent that doesn’t come around every day and isn’t easily replaced. I just don’t see him being easily replaced.

As far as the second pick, Bell is arguably the best RB in the league and a proven talent. There’s nothing out there that says Barkley is the next Bell and there’s just as good a chance that Barkley could be the next KiJana Carter. It’s all unknown until these guys get onto the field, maybe they are in the right situation and he becomes the next Bell or maybe he’s not and he turns into KiJana Carter...there’s no history there and no NFL game tape as there is with Bell. Sure Bell costs a ton more but if the Giants are serious about unloading OBJ, they have the money and as OBJ would be a great poster child for the Rams new stadium, Bell would be a pretty nice player to throw up on a billboard in Times Square. I wouldn’t trade Bell for the 34th pick.

4 ypc = 15 million?

JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue
03-27-2018, 09:20 PM
4 ypc = 15 million? He also helps to save Ben's career with a easy dump off instead of Ben taking a hit. There has to be extra value on that!

teegre
03-27-2018, 09:25 PM
Okay. I can see some of that. I still haven't seen where Bell said the $17 million thing, but I'll just take everyone's word for it.

Bell’s market value (which I’d be fine with): $15 million

Bell’s desired value (and only going higher): $17 million

Other teams’ ability to pay Bell (cap room): $19 million


If Bell truly wants the most money, he will NOT sign ANY contract offered by the Steelers, because in a year, he WILL be offered $20 million/season. (This is, IMO, his mental state about the issue.)

Colbert is using the “hot girl/crazy girl” algorithm... and, he’s determined that while Bell is indeed the hottest girl at the party, Bell might also steal Colbert’s kidney in his sleep. Better to pass her off onto your buddy, earning “bro points” with him, while secretly being relieved to be talking to the “9” who is never shuts up (an acceptable level of crazy).

As in:
Colbert is prepared to move on with or without Bell. Bell would be the icing on the cake... a very, very good icing, but icing nonetheless.

Ergo, Colbert won’t let Bell go for “nothing” (R3 pick), but I could definitely see trading Bell for a R2 pick... “if” another team decides to do so. Otherwise, Bell will play out this season, and move on to a team willing to give him $20 million.

86WARD
03-28-2018, 08:14 AM
4 ypc = 15 million?

It’s not all on him. The play calling was horrendous as well. How many times are you going to run the shotgun draw for a one yard gain, no gain or loss and then turn around and go straight back to it on the next drive with the same result? Also the blocking schemes stayed the same, the defense adjusted, the Steelers offense didn’t.

He deserves some of the criticism, but so,does the rest of the offense and coaching. Again, I’m not purposely being a Bell apologist, but there’s a lot of factors people aren’t considering. It’s easy to criticize the paper numbers or say just replace him with a draft pick, but it’s simply just not that easy.

86WARD
03-28-2018, 08:18 AM
Otherwise, Bell will play out this season, and move on to a team willing to give him $20 million.

Exactly. They’ll take him this year, make a run with the most talented team they’ve had in a long time and take it from there...

Also agree, no matter what contract the Steelers offer, Bell isn’t going to sign because he wants to create a bidding war to get the most money for the RB position...not for himself or anything.

SteelerFanInStl
03-28-2018, 08:43 AM
It’s not all on him. The play calling was horrendous as well. How many times are you going to run the shotgun draw for a one yard gain, no gain or loss and then turn around and go straight back to it on the next drive with the same result? Also the blocking schemes stayed the same, the defense adjusted, the Steelers offense didn’t.

He deserves some of the criticism, but so,does the rest of the offense and coaching. Again, I’m not purposely being a Bell apologist, but there’s a lot of factors people aren’t considering. It’s easy to criticize the paper numbers or say just replace him with a draft pick, but it’s simply just not that easy.

Agreed. People need to stop focusing on one stat. Why the OL or the play calling never seems to get any blame for that 4 ypc is beyond me.

SteelerFanInStl
03-28-2018, 08:49 AM
Exactly. They’ll take him this year, make a run with the most talented team they’ve had in a long time and take it from there...

Also agree, no matter what contract the Steelers offer, Bell isn’t going to sign because he wants to create a bidding war to get the most money for the RB position...not for himself or anything.

Yes, I think that you are both correct. This will be Bell's last year with the Steelers. I would have liked to have seen him signed to a multi-year contract but I'm also tired of the whole contract thing and don't want to see that much money tied up in a HB. Start making plans for him being gone next year. Conner isn't the answer so a HB will need to be drafted high either this year or next.

teegre
03-28-2018, 11:00 AM
It’s not all on him. The play calling was horrendous as well. How many times are you going to run the shotgun draw for a one yard gain, no gain or loss and then turn around and go straight back to it on the next drive with the same result? Also the blocking schemes stayed the same, the defense adjusted, the Steelers offense didn’t.

He deserves some of the criticism, but so,does the rest of the offense and coaching. Again, I’m not purposely being a Bell apologist, but there’s a lot of factors people aren’t considering. It’s easy to criticize the paper numbers or say just replace him with a draft pick, but it’s simply just not that easy.

And... Bell is the best blocking RB in the league.

A good portion of “Ben not getting sacked” is due to O-line and Munchak, but Bell has played a sizable part, as well.

86WARD
03-28-2018, 11:31 AM
Yes, I think that you are both correct. This will be Bell's last year with the Steelers. I would have liked to have seen him signed to a multi-year contract but I'm also tired of the whole contract thing and don't want to see that much money tied up in a HB. Start making plans for him being gone next year. Conner isn't the answer so a HB will need to be drafted high either this year or next.

Problem is, the 2019 Free Agent RB Projections are garbage...the addition would have to come through a draft pick or a trade. If it's got to come through a draft pick, if theres a guy there this year that they think may eventually replace Bell, I don't have a problem with them taking a shot this year and then doing the same next season.

From this early list, Mark Ingram would be the only one I would even entertain thinking about. Other than that, it's nothing but trash...IMO.

http://i66.tinypic.com/25piasl.jpg

Mojouw
03-28-2018, 12:49 PM
Ultimately, all of this is really a meaningless conversation. Bell has not signed the tag yet. Until he does no trade can happen. Say on draft day the Steelers were able to find a trade partner (sucker) that was willing to part with a high draft pick for Bell. All Bell has to do is not sign the tag and the whole thing falls apart.

For instance, folks like to speculate that the Colts may be cool with giving up some of their war chest of draft picks for a RB of Bell's caliber. Why in the hell would Bell want to go play there? They have no offensive line. No weapons aside from TY Hilton. The QB may or may not have a function throwing shoulder. The defense is a disaster zone. And the front office is essentially incompetent. The owner may be a serious addict. The list just goes on and on.

Apparently Sequon Barkley is football Jesus. So that rules out any team in the top portion of the draft that feel they have a realistic chance at getting Barkley with their pick. Looking at team needs, that is anyone in the top 10. Barkley, while a great prospect, could fall because QBs and pass rushers will get drafted before a RB. So no "blockbuster" prior to the draft. And as above, a draft day trade may not be even possible unless the Steelers can get Bell sitting in a room with pen in hand.

I could keep going - but the easy bottom line here is that a trade is out of the question. There just isn't a realistic scenario in my mind.

The only realistic discussion is whether the Steelers obtain Bell's replacement in this draft or the next. I vote for next as there are more important needs this cycle. Play Bell on the tag and make an honest effort to work Conner in and see what you have. Then go into the 2019 draft cycle planning on either coming away with the main option or a complement to Conner depending on Conner's 2018 performance.

teegre
03-28-2018, 05:32 PM
Why in the hell would Bell want to go play there?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXE_n2q08Yw&app=desktop

teegre
03-28-2018, 07:39 PM
A good read.

http://thelab.bleacherreport.com/run-angry/

hawaiiansteeler
03-28-2018, 09:34 PM
3/26: "Steelers head coach Mike Tomlin and GM Kevin Colbert are having dinner with LSU running back Derrius Guice around his pro day next week, per source. The Steelers' first-round intrigue in Guice is real." - Jeremy Fowler, ESPN

Taking Guice would be interesting, as it would be a concession that Le'Veon Bell won't be around much longer. Guice, slotted third in our 2018 NFL Draft Running Back Prospect Rankings, seemingly has a range of 20-40, so he would make sense at No. 28. -Walter

http://walterfootball.com/nflrumors/teamdraft/17-32

86WARD
03-29-2018, 09:06 PM
I’d have no problem if they took Guice at 28. No problem at all.

Born2Steel
03-30-2018, 08:01 AM
If it comes to finding a replacement for Bell or Ben I would use the 1st round pick for QB. I don't believe that is what this 1st round pick needs to be about though.

Steeldude
04-01-2018, 01:36 PM
I’d have no problem if they took Guice at 28. No problem at all.

He appears to be a very average RB.

86WARD
04-02-2018, 07:23 AM
He appears to be a very average RB.

When it comes to the draft, there’s no difference in that comment and saying that he appears to be a very good RB. Lol.

DesertSteel
04-02-2018, 10:32 AM
He appears to be a very average RB.
Based on what? Why is it that evaluators see him as the 2nd best RB in the class but he's average in your evaluation?

Mojouw
04-02-2018, 10:33 AM
He appears to be a very average RB.

Based on what? Just wondering. I have not spent any time watching Guice and have been reading several reports on him from places I put some stock in. Most of those reports have him pegged as one of the most dynamic runners in the draft class and I have read more than one saying he is a different kind of back, but will have more of an impact on the NFL than his former teammate, Leonard Fournette.

Again, not coming at you -- but would be genuinely interested in more information on how you reached your conclusion.

hawaiiansteeler
04-04-2018, 01:45 PM
Mike Tomlin and Kevin Colbert on hand for LSU Pro Day

By: Simon A Chester

The college pro day schedule has almost run out of dates for 2018, but there is still one big event left on the calendar. LSU opened its doors to the NFL on Wednesday and the Pittsburgh Steelers had their senior decisions makers on hand to watch the action.

to read rest of article:

https://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2018/04/04/mike-tomlin-and-kevin-colbert-on-hand-for-lsu-pro-day/

BlackAndGold
04-04-2018, 05:51 PM
Wonder if they're taking a look at wide receiver, DJ Chark? 6'3", 4.3 forty. Could be a 2nd round option.

hawaiiansteeler
04-04-2018, 11:37 PM
Wonder if they're taking a look at wide receiver, DJ Chark? 6'3", 4.3 forty. Could be a 2nd round option.

"Guice is not the only prospect the Steelers will be paying attention to, with cornerback Donte Jackson, wide receiver D.J. Chark and edge rusher Arden Key just some of the names who should interest them."

https://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2018/04/04/mike-tomlin-and-kevin-colbert-on-hand-for-lsu-pro-day/

hawaiiansteeler
04-05-2018, 03:34 PM
"I'm told Seahawks had a close eye on RB Derrius Guice at LSU pro day today." - Eric Edholm, Pro Football Weekly

The Seahawks are drafting 18th overall, so it's not out of the question that they could select Guice at that spot. Given all of their needs, they could trade down into the mid or late 20s and select Guice there. -Walter

http://walterfootball.com/nflrumors

Dwinsgames
04-05-2018, 03:37 PM
"Guice is not the only prospect the Steelers will be paying attention to, with cornerback Donte Jackson, wide receiver D.J. Chark and edge rusher Arden Key just some of the names who should interest them."

https://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2018/04/04/mike-tomlin-and-kevin-colbert-on-hand-for-lsu-pro-day/


read somewhere Tomlin was following Arden Key's every movement very closely

hawaiiansteeler
04-05-2018, 03:45 PM
read somewhere Tomlin was following Arden Key's every movement very closely

Mayock: Off-field concerns bigger issue for Arden Key than 40

By Chase Goodbread
College Football 24/7 writer
Published: April 4, 2018

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000924835/article/mayock-offfield-concerns-bigger-issue-for-arden-key-than-40

hawaiiansteeler
04-05-2018, 04:42 PM
He appears to be a very average RB.

I don't think you have watched Guice play very much:


https://www.nfl.com/share/10103061-7033-0000-0092-4686deced759

teegre
04-05-2018, 06:55 PM
read somewhere Tomlin was following Arden Key's every movement very closely

Key’s ceiling is DeMacus Ware. :willy:

Key’s floor is Carlton Haselrig. :scared:

Dwinsgames
04-05-2018, 07:01 PM
Key’s ceiling is DeMacus Ware. :willy:

Key’s floor is Carlton Haselrig. :scared:


he plays Guard too ?




just messin with ya lol

Steeldude
04-05-2018, 09:57 PM
Based on what? Why is it that evaluators see him as the 2nd best RB in the class but he's average in your evaluation?

Game footage, recurring injuries, very average burst(hence the low vertical leap score), lackluster SPARQ rating... Also, his upright running style, coupled with injuries, does not equate to a RB who will be available often. He didn't do much at the combine. After his poor vertical leap he opted out of the broad jump. I don't think he did any of the combine drills at his pro day either.

Do you really want to waste a 1st round pick on this guy? After Barkley there is a huge drop-off in this year's RB class. Nothing Guice has shown shouts 1st round material to me. I didn't look at it under a microscope, but his best games seem to be against porous defenses. I have never been a fan of drafting RBs in the first round unless they are something special(Barry Sanders, Tomlinson, Bo Jackson etc...).

Remember when these evaluators said Vince Young was good?

IMO, he is a risky pick for the early rounds. Is he really any different than Toussaint?

86WARD
04-06-2018, 06:51 AM
Upright running style. Which actually is the only “legal” running style for the NFL in 2018.

Steeldude
04-06-2018, 08:17 AM
Upright running style. Which actually is the only “legal” running style for the NFL in 2018.

True.

Football is disappearing. 2018 could very well be the worst year of football ever.

DesertSteel
04-06-2018, 10:48 PM
Game footage, recurring injuries, very average burst(hence the low vertical leap score), lackluster SPARQ rating... Also, his upright running style, coupled with injuries, does not equate to a RB who will be available often. He didn't do much at the combine. After his poor vertical leap he opted out of the broad jump. I don't think he did any of the combine drills at his pro day either.

Do you really want to waste a 1st round pick on this guy? After Barkley there is a huge drop-off in this year's RB class. Nothing Guice has shown shouts 1st round material to me. I didn't look at it under a microscope, but his best games seem to be against porous defenses. I have never been a fan of drafting RBs in the first round unless they are something special(Barry Sanders, Tomlinson, Bo Jackson etc...).

Remember when these evaluators said Vince Young was good?

IMO, he is a risky pick for the early rounds. Is he really any different than Toussaint?
It’s easy to pick apart 98% of all draft picks. They all have negatives. That said, I’d be happy with Penny or Chubb in 2-3.

Born2Steel
04-07-2018, 02:26 AM
A RB in the 1st is a wasted pick, IMO. No rookie is going to start in place of Bell if he's on the team. No chance to start = not worth a 1st round pick.

Mojouw
04-08-2018, 06:07 PM
Game footage, recurring injuries, very average burst(hence the low vertical leap score), lackluster SPARQ rating... Also, his upright running style, coupled with injuries, does not equate to a RB who will be available often. He didn't do much at the combine. After his poor vertical leap he opted out of the broad jump. I don't think he did any of the combine drills at his pro day either.

Do you really want to waste a 1st round pick on this guy? After Barkley there is a huge drop-off in this year's RB class. Nothing Guice has shown shouts 1st round material to me. I didn't look at it under a microscope, but his best games seem to be against porous defenses. I have never been a fan of drafting RBs in the first round unless they are something special(Barry Sanders, Tomlinson, Bo Jackson etc...).

Remember when these evaluators said Vince Young was good?

IMO, he is a risky pick for the early rounds. Is he really any different than Toussaint?

Really glad you brought all this up. Looked into his SPARQ and other numbers. They are terrible!

I don't know how to embed things here, but follow the link -- Guice does not test well at all. https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/derrius-guice

I had read such glowing things about him, but how do those #'s get explained away?

In contrast, here is L Bell 2.0's testing #'s - https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/kerryon-johnson

hawaiiansteeler
04-09-2018, 12:54 AM
Derrius Guice*, RB, LSU

Height: 5-10. Weight: 224. Arm: 30.75. Hand: 9.
40 Time: 4.49.
Projected Round (2018): 1-2.

4/7/18: At the NFL Scouting Combine, Guice had a good workout with a fast 40 and did well in the field work. Guice averaged 5.3 yards per carry in 2017, totaling 1,251 yards with 11 touchdowns. He had 18 catches for 124 yards and two touchdowns as well. Guice was banged up and missed the Week 5 game against Troy with a knee injury. Late in the regular season, Guice was looking better and seemed to regain some of his speed as he got healthier. Guice is a tough runner with speed, strength, good instincts, and running ability. He could be a good three-down starter in the NFL. Guice has a shot at being a late first-round pick and shouldn't last long if he slips to the second round.

7/17/17: With Leonard Fournette in and out of the lineup with an ankle injury in 2016, Guice took advantage of a larger-than-expected workload to have a breakout sophomore season. He averaged 7.6 yards per carry for 1,387 yards with 15 touchdowns, plus took nine receptions for 106 yards. Guice had some massive games with 252 yards versus Arkansas and 285 yards rushing against Texas A&M. He is a tougher runner with quickness.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2018RB.php

El-Gonzo Jackson
04-09-2018, 01:10 AM
Derrius Guice*, RB, LSU

Height: 5-10. Weight: 224. Arm: 30.75. Hand: 9.
40 Time: 4.49.
Projected Round (2018): 1-2.

4/7/18: At the NFL Scouting Combine, Guice had a good workout with a fast 40 and did well in the field work. Guice averaged 5.3 yards per carry in 2017, totaling 1,251 yards with 11 touchdowns. He had 18 catches for 124 yards and two touchdowns as well. Guice was banged up and missed the Week 5 game against Troy with a knee injury. Late in the regular season, Guice was looking better and seemed to regain some of his speed as he got healthier. Guice is a tough runner with speed, strength, good instincts, and running ability. He could be a good three-down starter in the NFL. Guice has a shot at being a late first-round pick and shouldn't last long if he slips to the second round.

7/17/17: With Leonard Fournette in and out of the lineup with an ankle injury in 2016, Guice took advantage of a larger-than-expected workload to have a breakout sophomore season. He averaged 7.6 yards per carry for 1,387 yards with 15 touchdowns, plus took nine receptions for 106 yards. Guice had some massive games with 252 yards versus Arkansas and 285 yards rushing against Texas A&M. He is a tougher runner with quickness.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2018RB.php

Yes, his 40 time was one of the better times at the combine. His field drills looked smooth and he caught the ball effortless and naturally. Thought I read about some character concerns, but I think the kid can play and be productive in the NFL. Sure, his vertical at the combine was 31.5", but do you know who else jumped that same height at the combine?.......LeVeon Bell.

teegre
04-09-2018, 07:13 AM
Thought I read about some character concerns,


Derrius Guice was the player whom some “unnamed” team asked if he “liked men.” Once Guice mentioned this, suddenly there were “character” concerns. There are zero character concerns, except for his love for video games. This is all a smear tactic as “punishment” for ratting on that “unnamed” team.

El-Gonzo Jackson
04-09-2018, 09:44 AM
Derrius Guice was the player whom some “unnamed” team asked if he “liked men.” Once Guice mentioned this, suddenly there were “character” concerns. There are zero character concerns, except for his love for video games. This is all a smear tactic as “punishment” for ratting on that “unnamed” team.

Thanks for letting me know. Shows how bad the world of social media and that anybody with a twitter account can call themselves media. I glanced at the info and it becomes a thought.

I read further that he lost his father at age 7 to a shooting, is known for working with charities in the Baton Rouge area and is a model citizen and teammate. What a character flaw.

Texasteel
04-09-2018, 09:47 AM
Say we do draft Guice in the 1st round, where might that leave us with the 2nd round. Who would be your favorite second day ILB, and Safety?

El-Gonzo Jackson
04-09-2018, 10:43 AM
Say we do draft Guice in the 1st round, where might that leave us with the 2nd round. Who would be your favorite second day ILB, and Safety?

With addition of Burnett at Safety, I don't know if the need to draft one is really prevalent, but I like Reid if he is there. I still like Darrius Leonard at ILB as the Wesley Woodyard, Telvin Smith comparisons are applied. Still, I think the TE position is lacking for the Steelers, so what if one of Gisecki, Goedart or Andrews is still on the board in the 2nd round?

SteelMember
04-09-2018, 11:38 AM
With addition of Burnett at Safety, I don't know if the need to draft one is really prevalent, but I like Reid if he is there. I still like Darrius Leonard at ILB as the Wesley Woodyard, Telvin Smith comparisons are applied. Still, I think the TE position is lacking for the Steelers, so what if one of Gisecki, Goedart or Andrews is still on the board in the 2nd round?

I like any of those options as well. And if we are in consensus here, the Steelers will obviously go WR... Then we can all say wtf are they thinking... as per usual. :chuckle:

Shoes
04-09-2018, 02:13 PM
With addition of Burnett at Safety, I don't know if the need to draft one is really prevalent, but I like Reid if he is there. I still like Darrius Leonard at ILB as the Wesley Woodyard, Telvin Smith comparisons are applied. Still, I think the TE position is lacking for the Steelers, so what if one of Gisecki, Goedart or Andrews is still on the board in the 2nd round?


:salute:

hawaiiansteeler
04-09-2018, 05:01 PM
by Tim Benz

Mike Tomlin and Kevin Colbert: What were they thinking when they went to LSU's pro day?

Well, considering running backs coach James Saxon was with them, they were probably thinking about taking Derrius Guice in the draft.

The problem is Guice probably won't be there at pick No. 28. After Saquon Barkley, many people — myself included — think he is the best running back in the draft.

He's 5-foot-10, 224 pounds. In three seasons with the Tigers, Guice had more than 3,300 yards from scrimmage and scored 32 touchdowns.

If some other teams project Georgia products Sony Michel or Nick Chubb as better runners in the pros, Guice might be too tough for the Steelers to pass up if he is there when they select.

to read rest of article:

http://triblive.com/sports/columnists/timbenz/13502848-74/tim-benz-what-were-tomlin-bell-harrison-and-the-patriots-thinking

teegre
04-09-2018, 09:29 PM
Thanks for letting me know. Shows how bad the world of social media and that anybody with a twitter account can call themselves media. I glanced at the info and it becomes a thought.

I read further that he lost his father at age 7 to a shooting, is known for working with charities in the Baton Rouge area and is a model citizen and teammate. What a character flaw.

Twitter has become troll central.

Yep. He’s a heck of a kid, considering all he’s been through.
http://thelab.bleacherreport.com/run-angry/

st33lersguy
04-09-2018, 10:07 PM
One thing is for sure, Guice has a lot more character than Smokey Bell, and despite being younger is probably more mature as well.

hawaiiansteeler
04-12-2018, 07:28 PM
by Jeremy Fowler

That the Steelers are looking for Bell’s replacement in the draft:

This is more significant than some other speculation and is at least partly true.

The Steelers are prepared to protect themselves, since Bell negotiations have proved difficult. The team’s interest in LSU’s Derrius Guice, for example, is genuine. His interview with the team at the combine was described to me as all hands on deck.

to read rest of article:

http://www.espn.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/94348/separating-fact-from-fiction-with-leveon-bell-and-the-steelers

Born2Steel
04-12-2018, 08:52 PM
[/B]
:salute:

I like Gisecki. He seems to be what Green was supposed to be.

pczach
04-13-2018, 05:57 AM
I like Gisecki. He seems to be what Green was supposed to be.


He's a physical freak. He is a former basketball player with a huge vertical. He makes the contested catches and can high point the ball above everybody. As an offensive weapon, he is what you're looking for.

Blocking is the unknown with Gesicki. He wasn't asked to do much blocking at Penn State. He would need to convince scouts that he is going to be a willing blocker and will work to improve at the next level. If he can become a competent blocker, he's a homerun.

He'd need to learn to play with different responsibilities in a different offense at the NFL level, but there's no reason to think that he would struggle with that. He seems to be a smart kid.

SteelMember
04-13-2018, 07:05 AM
He's a physical freak. He is a former basketball player with a huge vertical. He makes the contested catches and can high point the ball above everybody. As an offensive weapon, he is what you're looking for.

Blocking is the unknown with Gesicki. He wasn't asked to do much blocking at Penn State. He would need to convince scouts that he is going to be a willing blocker and will work to improve at the next level. If he can become a competent blocker, he's a homerun.

He'd need to learn to play with different responsibilities in a different offense at the NFL level, but there's no reason to think that he would struggle with that. He seems to be a smart kid.

Agree with all and I'm pretty sure you can add volleyball to that resume... so, body control is one of his biggest assets.

pczach
04-13-2018, 11:38 AM
Agree with all and I'm pretty sure you can add volleyball to that resume... so, body control is one of his biggest assets.


You're right. He played volleyball as well.

As a Penn State fan I've seen every game that he's played in his career. If he shows that he can be physical enough at the point of attack, He's a terrific player for a decade in the NFL.

86WARD
04-13-2018, 12:13 PM
As a PSU fan, his blocking was poor. His pass catching and overall game was good but he lacked in that blocking area. He’s not the answer as far as that area goes.

But don’t get me wrong, he’d be a good pick.

SteelMember
04-13-2018, 01:25 PM
As a PSU fan, his blocking was poor. His pass catching and overall game was good but he lacked in that blocking area. He’s not the answer as far as that area goes.

But don’t get me wrong, he’d be a good pick.

I wouldn't say he's the answer either, but to be honest, he really wasn't tasked with too much in the blocking game. Therefore, like Jesse James, he would be more of a pass catching target. Nothing to say he couldn't pick it up. I mean, we've given James years and he still lacks in the area most times. Neither is/was a complete TE coming out of college.

My point to add the other sports was to give some reason for all the "high-point" remarks you see from most analysts. He is tall and has great control of his head and body while in the air because of these other sports... no, probably not Lynn Swann type talents, but plenty more than most at the position.

...and even as another PSU fan, I would hesitate to call him a 1st rounder. Sure, he'd be a nice piece. Just not worthy of a 28th pick for OUR team "at this juncture..." :chuckle:

pczach
04-13-2018, 06:50 PM
I wouldn't say he's the answer either, but to be honest, he really wasn't tasked with too much in the blocking game. Therefore, like Jesse James, he would be more of a pass catching target. Nothing to say he couldn't pick it up. I mean, we've given James years and he still lacks in the area most times. Neither is/was a complete TE coming out of college.

My point to add the other sports was to give some reason for all the "high-point" remarks you see from most analysts. He is tall and has great control of his head and body while in the air because of these other sports... no, probably not Lynn Swann type talents, but plenty more than most at the position.

...and even as another PSU fan, I would hesitate to call him a 1st rounder. Sure, he'd be a nice piece. Just not worthy of a 28th pick for OUR team "at this juncture..." :chuckle:


He's definitely a guy I would be much more comfortable taking in the second round than the first. Third would be even better. :smoker:

I don't think he'll be available that late, and I'm not sure the Steelers are really looking at him unless he fell for some reason.

By the way, I don't think you or I are advocating taking Gesicki in the first round.

- - - Updated - - -


As a PSU fan, his blocking was poor. His pass catching and overall game was good but he lacked in that blocking area. He’s not the answer as far as that area goes.

But don’t get me wrong, he’d be a good pick.


We're only talking about Gesicki because the conversation went to TE's. I believe that if the Steelers were going to take a TE early, it would be a guy like Hurst that has a more balanced game. With that said, I don't think they take a TE in the first.

86WARD
04-15-2018, 08:33 AM
Agree. Definitely not a first round pick IMO.

Born2Steel
04-15-2018, 08:56 AM
He's a physical freak. He is a former basketball player with a huge vertical. He makes the contested catches and can high point the ball above everybody. As an offensive weapon, he is what you're looking for.

Blocking is the unknown with Gesicki. He wasn't asked to do much blocking at Penn State. He would need to convince scouts that he is going to be a willing blocker and will work to improve at the next level. If he can become a competent blocker, he's a homerun.

He'd need to learn to play with different responsibilities in a different offense at the NFL level, but there's no reason to think that he would struggle with that. He seems to be a smart kid.

Sounds a lot like Jimmy Graham. Graham played basketball exclusively until he played football his graduate school year at Miami. Just a very gifted athlete to go from a lifetime of 1 sport to a probowler at another after your 1st year playing. Not saying he's the next Jimmy Graham, just saying he could be.

pczach
04-15-2018, 10:42 AM
Sounds a lot like Jimmy Graham. Graham played basketball exclusively until he played football his graduate school year at Miami. Just a very gifted athlete to go from a lifetime of 1 sport to a probowler at another after your 1st year playing. Not saying he's the next Jimmy Graham, just saying he could be.


Just a little taste:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nneCOB3AQVs

Shoes
04-15-2018, 11:02 AM
Just a little taste:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nneCOB3AQVs



I'd be ok with this. :chuckle:

Mojouw
04-15-2018, 11:45 AM
I have the same problem with Gesicki and most of this TE class that I had with last year's - they are not TE's they are just really really big WRs. And that is okay, but WR is not this team's problem.

Gisicki's highlight reel looks like a more explosive Jesse James. That's awesome. Gesicki would be a weapon in the red zone and likely more of a YAC threat than the current Steelers TE's.

BUt I don't see evidence that he wouldn't be the same abysmal failure as a blocker (particularly in space where it will be hard for him to move and bend enough to keep leverage) that Jesse James is. James gets blown up or misses a block at least once per game. Often resulting in a negative play for the offense in terms of a sack or a RB being tackled for a loss. While I realize the playcall was really stupid, but on that infamous 4th and 1 in the playoff, guess who didn't block anyone well out at the end of the line to try (and fail) to create a seal for an alley? That's right - the Steelers non-blocking TE!

For a team that wants to run the ball out of 1 back sets and spread out WR formations as often as the Steelers do, you need a TE that can hold up at the point of attack. Gesicki, like Jimmy Graham, is not that guy. I am all for drafting a TE. But just as with the past 2 years, I do not see a TE in this class that screams "Draft me in the first round!". Gisecki looks like a 2nd or 3rd round pick for the Steelers. He will help in the passing game and in the red zone. And offer nothing as a blocker in his rookie year. Remember, TE is one of the hardest positions for a rookie to make an impact. So drafting one in the first round is essentially saying that you are prepared for your primary draft pick to have a limited role on the team until year 2 or maybe 3.

Sorry, Shoes - but I gotta say drafting a TE is not a bad idea, just not in Round 1.

FrancoLambert
04-15-2018, 03:23 PM
He could turn out to be an incredible offensive weapon for any team. A mismatch nightmare.

But us drafting him in the first round would be a mistake with what we need to win a championship.

Shoes
04-15-2018, 08:45 PM
I have the same problem with Gesicki and most of this TE class that I had with last year's - they are not TE's they are just really really big WRs. And that is okay, but WR is not this team's problem.

Gisicki's highlight reel looks like a more explosive Jesse James. That's awesome. Gesicki would be a weapon in the red zone and likely more of a YAC threat than the current Steelers TE's.

BUt I don't see evidence that he wouldn't be the same abysmal failure as a blocker (particularly in space where it will be hard for him to move and bend enough to keep leverage) that Jesse James is. James gets blown up or misses a block at least once per game. Often resulting in a negative play for the offense in terms of a sack or a RB being tackled for a loss. While I realize the playcall was really stupid, but on that infamous 4th and 1 in the playoff, guess who didn't block anyone well out at the end of the line to try (and fail) to create a seal for an alley? That's right - the Steelers non-blocking TE!

For a team that wants to run the ball out of 1 back sets and spread out WR formations as often as the Steelers do, you need a TE that can hold up at the point of attack. Gesicki, like Jimmy Graham, is not that guy. I am all for drafting a TE. But just as with the past 2 years, I do not see a TE in this class that screams "Draft me in the first round!". Gisecki looks like a 2nd or 3rd round pick for the Steelers. He will help in the passing game and in the red zone. And offer nothing as a blocker in his rookie year. Remember, TE is one of the hardest positions for a rookie to make an impact. So drafting one in the first round is essentially saying that you are prepared for your primary draft pick to have a limited role on the team until year 2 or maybe 3.

Sorry, Shoes - but I gotta say drafting a TE is not a bad idea, just not in Round 1.
I'll shit myself the day we draft a TE in R1 :chuckle:

GBMelBlount
04-17-2018, 09:53 AM
Broncos just released runningback CJ Anderson.

1,000 yards last season.

Half the mileage of LL Cool Bell.

https://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2018/04/17/free-agent-rb-c-j-anderson-could-fix-the-steelers-running-back-problem/

Mojouw
04-17-2018, 11:25 AM
Broncos just released runningback CJ Anderson.

1,000 yards last season.

Half the mileage of LL Cool Bell.

https://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2018/04/17/free-agent-rb-c-j-anderson-could-fix-the-steelers-running-back-problem/

Might be a clue in there about how excited anyone should be to employ CJ ANderson. Broncos have been attempting to replace or supplement him for 3 seasons now (his prime seasons at that) and have now outright released him. What the article doesn't mention is that Anderson has had some injuries and noticeable stretches of "meh" in his career.

If the Steelers wanted to release L. Bell this season (they don't) there are far worse options but I wouldn't be lining up to make sure no one else beat me to "CJ Anderson as centerpiece of my offense".

86WARD
04-17-2018, 01:45 PM
CJ Anderson also had some noticeable stretches of “meh” teammates in his career and pretty much a dumpster fire behind center that only the Browns can rival.

I think he’d be a decent back behind the Steelers line and with Ben at QB. Not Bell good, but a better option than Connor or Ridley.

Dwinsgames
04-17-2018, 01:57 PM
CJ Anderson also had some noticeable stretches of “meh” teammates in his career and pretty much a dumpster fire behind center that only the Browns can rival.

I think he’d be a decent back behind the Steelers line and with Ben at QB. Not Bell good, but a better option than Connor or Ridley.

a lot of truth spoken here that is difficult if not impossible to ignore

GBMelBlount
04-17-2018, 02:21 PM
CJ Anderson also had some noticeable stretches of “meh” teammates in his career and pretty much a dumpster fire behind center that only the Browns can rival.

I think he’d be a decent back behind the Steelers line and with Ben at QB. Not Bell good, but a better option than Connor or Ridley.

Interestingly, Anderson had better ypc with the terrible Broncos offense than Bell had with the Steelers last year.

DesertSteel
04-17-2018, 02:22 PM
Interestingly, Anderson had better ypc with the terrible Broncos offense than Bell had with the Steelers last year.
<---- Bell Apologists please line up to the left

Mojouw
04-17-2018, 02:46 PM
CJ Anderson also had some noticeable stretches of “meh” teammates in his career and pretty much a dumpster fire behind center that only the Browns can rival.

I think he’d be a decent back behind the Steelers line and with Ben at QB. Not Bell good, but a better option than Connor or Ridley.

Well sure. But better than a guy who hasn't demonstrated he can consistently run well in the NFL and can not play on passing downs and better than a guy who tends to tear ligaments and muscles getting out of bed in the morning isn't a ringing endorsement.

If the Steelers are going to move on from Bell, I would much rather draft a back in one of the next 2 drafts or throw the dice that Conner figures out how to pass protect than go with CJ Anderson.

I might be totally under rating the guy, but I've never been really all that impressed. I suspect the Broncos near constant efforts to either move on from Anderson or develop a serious committee partner for him points to something about his game/skill-set that NFL teams see as limiting.

hawaiiansteeler
04-17-2018, 02:56 PM
Interestingly, Anderson had better ypc with the terrible Broncos offense than Bell had with the Steelers last year.

Anderson knows that the league's youngest backs are counting on him to reset the market with his next multiyear contract, thus he will now be asking for Antonio Brown type money. C J is determined to elevate the market value of elite NFL running backs, knowing that he's the guy that all the others are looking at like, "Alright C J. you gotta help us out." :smoker:

Rotorhead
04-17-2018, 07:54 PM
Living in Denver, I have seen a lot of Bronco games, CJ is a solid runner and is difficult to bring down. He gets the hard yards and he can block. I would take him in a heartbeat as a 2 year stop gap for less than 1/3rd the price of Bell, especially if we could pick up a draft pick by trading Bell (yeah I know all that needs to happen with Bell to trade him). I think you are under rating CJ, he was good behind one of the worst OL’s in the game the last couple seasons. The Broncos kept trying to find a Bell like player to replace him and everyone they brought in, he beat out, think about that for a minute when you say he is mediocre.

Dwinsgames
04-25-2018, 06:48 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DbqkZxBUQAArj-S.jpg:large

Born2Steel
04-25-2018, 07:03 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DbqkZxBUQAArj-S.jpg:large

"...and psychological probing."

SteelMember
04-26-2018, 12:51 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DbqkZxBUQAArj-S.jpg:large

I guess I missed this story... what, were teams (allegedly) asking him if he liked boys or something?

El-Gonzo Jackson
04-26-2018, 01:22 PM
I guess I missed this story... what, were teams (allegedly) asking him if he liked boys or something? Yeah and allegedly asking him if his mother sold herself or something to that effect.

So why would he make any of this stuff up? To intentionally hurt his draft stock by falsely commenting that some teams asked inappropriate questions in the combine interview process?

My take on it is that he was likely asked some inappropriate questions to see how he reacts. Its an old tactic, but I know of cops who were asked incendiary questions during their recruitment process for similar reasons. Now that the comments went public, the NFL has to investigate and most likely Guice and his Agent decided that its best to not single out any one team or individual(s), for fear of NFL teams not wanting to draft somebody who ratted out fellow NFL coaches/scouts/GM.