The Le'Veon Bell-Steelers showdown, Part II: What you need to know

[Shoes]

PITTSBURGH -- Le'Veon Bell (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/15825/le'veon-bell) says he and the Pittsburgh Steelers (http://www.espn.com/nfl/team/_/name/pit/pittsburgh-steelers) are closer in negotiations than they were a year ago. It's time to find out just how close.
The franchise tag window is here, and if the Steelers use the tag as expected, Bell and the team have the next five months to work out a contract.
Here's what you need to know about what's next:
http://www.espn.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/27253/the-leveon-bell-steelers-standoff-part-ii-what-you-need-to-know

[pczach]

That pretty much sums up the situation.

Both sides just need to be reasonable to get this done and move on. He's so good, and the team is so close to getting over the top that it just seems to make sense for both sides to get a deal done.

If Bell plays hardball with unreasonable demands, I think the team will just tag him and are prepared to let him go after next season. This would allow them to concentrate on defense in this years draft and free agency, and clear the way to make a move to get a new feature back in the draft in 2019. I believe that's what they are thinking is the best path to winning now and in the future if Bell can't be signed.

[DesertSteel]

What are the implications of an unsigned tag throughout the entire offseason as it relates to the cap/free agency and re-signing our own guys? I don't believe he'd retire but I could see him sitting out a few regular season games.

[steelreserve]

What are the implications of an unsigned tag throughout the entire offseason as it relates to the cap/free agency and re-signing our own guys? I don't believe he'd retire but I could see him sitting out a few regular season games.

I think it counts against the salary cap unless you revoke it. Or at least you have to have the cap space available since the player could sign it at any time.

If he actually sits out any real games, he's an idiot, since his goal is getting paid and that is actually going to hurt his ability to do that. Other teams might overlook skipping the preseason, but regular-season games are another thing. Not to mention you are going to be worth more if you lead the league in rushing than if you have like 800 yards because you threw a fit. And also your goal is to get paid, but you're giving up a million dollars a game just because you're mad. And also you're rapping about getting paid 15, and here's a season where you're actually getting it, but you sit out. So I doubt it comes to that.

[DesertSteel]

I think it counts against the salary cap unless you revoke it. Or at least you have to have the cap space available since the player could sign it at any time.

If he actually sits out any real games, he's an idiot, since his goal is getting paid and that is actually going to hurt his ability to do that. Other teams might overlook skipping the preseason, but regular-season games are another thing. Not to mention you are going to be worth more if you lead the league in rushing than if you have like 800 yards because you threw a fit. And also your goal is to get paid, but you're giving up a million dollars a game just because you're mad. And also you're rapping about getting paid 15, and here's a season where you're actually getting it, but you sit out. So I doubt it comes to that.
He's not very bright.

[steelreserve]

He's not very bright.

True, this is something that's been working against us in one way or another every offseason with him.

[Mojouw]

Aaron Donald sat regular season games and every single team in the NFL would pay him whatever the hell he wanted if he hit the open market.

NFL teams say a ton of nonsense, but in the end if you are talented nothing else matters.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Gerry Dulac's Steelers chat transcript: 2.23.18

GERRY DULAC
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

pdxJaxon: Hey Gerry,
Im on board with letting Bell go. Not worth the Money (Not even close). However,..the problem is, if he leaves, we now have another HUGE Hole to plug....what would the strategy be to cover ILB, S, and RB if we let him go....?

Gerry Dulac: You're right about that. Look, I'm not advocating getting rid of Bell. I just don't know if its worth committing that much money -- and it' s a lot -- to a RB on a pass-oriented team who averages 3.9 yards per carry behind arguably the best O-line in the league who already has two suspensions on his resume and raps about wanting to be a rapper.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/02/23/Gerry-Dulac-Steelers-chat-2-23-18/stories/201802230159

[DesertSteel]

Aaron Donald sat regular season games and every single team in the NFL would pay him whatever the hell he wanted if he hit the open market.

NFL teams say a ton of nonsense, but in the end if you are talented nothing else matters.
Bell does not come close in value to an Aaron Donald, IMO. Donald is going to get Quarterback money.

[Craic]

Gerry Dulac's Steelers chat transcript: 2.23.18

GERRY DULAC


Gerry Dulac: You're right about that. Look, I'm not advocating getting rid of Bell. I just don't know if its worth committing that much money -- and it' s a lot -- to a RB on a pass-oriented team who averages 3.9 yards per carry behind arguably the best O-line in the league who already has two suspensions on his resume and raps about wanting to be a rapper.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/02/23/Gerry-Dulac-Steelers-chat-2-23-18/stories/201802230159

Several problems with this statement. First, after Brown, Bell is our top receiver with 85 receptions and our third best receiver in yards gained (JuJu is second). So discussing Bell as purely a RB is pretty shortsighted on Dulac's part. Second. This o-line was not the best o-line in the league. They were barely in the top third of the league this year. They ranked something like 9th or 10th in allowing defensive players within 1 yard of the RB behind the LOS (I have a post linking that stat somewhere on here). However, the Steelers are also tied for 3rd best in runs stuffed with only 17 percent stuffed behind LOS. Take those last two stats together, and what you get is a RB that turned a lot of negative yards into 1 or 2 positive yards. That does NOT show up on any normal stat line. Third, calling the Steelers a pass-oriented team, while technically correct, is pretty misleading as well. We are not the Patriots* or the Manning-led Colts. There are stretches every season where this team becomes a run-first offense because of one reason or another.

So, no. Dulac is pretty much out to lunch here, IMO.

[fansince'76]

Take those last two stats together, and what you get is a RB that turned a lot of negative yards into 1 or 2 positive yards.

Toss sweep on 4th-and-1 for a 4-yard loss, anyone?

[DesertSteel]

Several problems with this statement. First, after Brown, Bell is our top receiver with 85 receptions and our third best receiver in yards gained (JuJu is second). So discussing Bell as purely a RB is pretty shortsighted on Dulac's part. Second. This o-line was not the best o-line in the league. They were barely in the top third of the league this year. They ranked something like 9th or 10th in allowing defensive players within 1 yard of the RB behind the LOS (I have a post linking that stat somewhere on here). However, the Steelers are also tied for 3rd best in runs stuffed with only 17 percent stuffed behind LOS. Take those last two stats together, and what you get is a RB that turned a lot of negative yards into 1 or 2 positive yards. That does NOT show up on any normal stat line. Third, calling the Steelers a pass-oriented team, while technically correct, is pretty misleading as well. We are not the Patriots* or the Manning-led Colts. There are stretches every season where this team becomes a run-first offense because of one reason or another.

So, no. Dulac is pretty much out to lunch here, IMO.
That stat is completely on Bell's style.

[teegre]

Bell’s contract situation walks into a bar. Half of the bar immediately hates the other half’s opinion on the matter; the other half follows suit. Facts hide in in the corner.

[AtlantaDan]

FWIW Spotrac, which does a good job of tracking player contracts and team cap situations, has a new feature calculating the market value of players.

This is what it comes up with for Bell

The first step in evaluating is to identify players of the same position, with similar playing time/opportunity, who signed a contract around Bell's current age.
After adjusting the above contracts to match Bell's current age, we're provided with the following initial value.
Now we'll compare our variables and Bell statistically over the two seasons prior to their signing.
After applying our Prime % figures into our base calculated value, we're given two values. The average of these values becomes our current calculated market value.

5 years, $53,840,716
Average salary 10,768,143

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/leveon-bell-12329/market-value/

[DesertSteel]

FWIW Spotrac, which does a good job of tracking player contracts and team cap situations, has a new feature calculating the market value of players.

This is what it comes up with for Bell

The first step in evaluating is to identify players of the same position, with similar playing time/opportunity, who signed a contract around Bell's current age.
After adjusting the above contracts to match Bell's current age, we're provided with the following initial value.
Now we'll compare our variables and Bell statistically over the two seasons prior to their signing.
After applying our Prime % figures into our base calculated value, we're given two values. The average of these values becomes our current calculated market value.

5 years, $53,840,716
Average salary 10,768,143

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/leveon-bell-12329/market-value/
That number sounds spot on to me.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe he can get the other $3-4M added on due to his rapping skills...

$7M RB
$4M WR
$3M R

[Craic]

That stat is completely on Bell's style.

Not at all. A defensive player being within one yard of a running back behind the LOS means the offensive lineman has been pushed into the backfield. That's on the O line. And then, like FS said. Remember all the sweeps and other plays being ran. Yeah, that's not Bell.

[Craic]

FWIW Spotrac, which does a good job of tracking player contracts and team cap situations, has a new feature calculating the market value of players.

This is what it comes up with for Bell

The first step in evaluating is to identify players of the same position, with similar playing time/opportunity, who signed a contract around Bell's current age.
After adjusting the above contracts to match Bell's current age, we're provided with the following initial value.
Now we'll compare our variables and Bell statistically over the two seasons prior to their signing.
After applying our Prime % figures into our base calculated value, we're given two values. The average of these values becomes our current calculated market value.

5 years, $53,840,716
Average salary 10,768,143

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/leveon-bell-12329/market-value/

I couldn't find where they added in market inflation over the last few years. So, how to calculate that? If we average the cap for the years represented by the players in that assessment, we get $146,537,500. Assuming a $178,000,000 cap for 2018, that's a 21.5 percent increase for 2018 over the average. So, that'd equal $65,400,648 in today's money for Bell, and an average salary of $13,080,130.

[Iron Steeler]

How does the franchise tag work?

In regard to another team wanting to acquire him under the tag.

[BlackAndGold]

969759250456203264

[tube517]

How does the franchise tag work?

In regard to another team wanting to acquire him under the tag.

https://www.sbnation.com/2018/2/19/17017190/nfl-franchise-tag-explained-free-agency-2018

[DesertSteel]

Not at all. A defensive player being within one yard of a running back behind the LOS means the offensive lineman has been pushed into the backfield. That's on the O line. And then, like FS said. Remember all the sweeps and other plays being ran. Yeah, that's not Bell.
Just saw this. I don’t think I agree. If Bell is in the backfield for 3 seconds that has an impact. Other backs are hitting the hole much faster, thus less time for the D to penetrate.

Bell’s style is like Ben holding the ball. You live with both the good and the bad.

[AtlantaDan]

969759250456203264

Well he will sign a franchise tag - I am confident about that as well

I assume those individuals also were confident about beating Jacksonville in the playoffs

The opposing side had something to say about that as well

The Steelers thought they had a deal with Bell's agent last summer and Bell blew it up - having been burned before being confident a deal can get done seems overly optimistic

Since IMO Bell is worth less now than he was in 2017 (another year of wear and tear) if the Steelers were not lowballing Bell last summer it makes no sense to raise their offer on a multi year deal unless it is the same or less real $$$ and the Steelers are hoping Bell does not figure that out

[SteelMember]

Well he will sign a franchise tag - I am confident about that as well.


With the deadline lingering, they will offer him the tag unless there is some breakthrough today.
Whether he signs it or not, so the negotiation process can continue, remains to be seen. He could sulk all summer... again.

[DesertSteel]

Well he will sign a franchise tag - I am confident about that as well


Yes... 2 days before the first game. :frusty:

[steel striker]

Well we know what that means Bell will hold out or sign after kickoff.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Paul Zeise: With Le'Veon Bell, the Steelers need to hold their ground

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
MAR 5, 2018

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/zeise-is-right/2018/03/05/leveon-bell-franchise-tag-deadline-steelers-contract-salary-cap/stories/201803050092

[SteelMember]

"Last year, the franchise tag paid Bell $12.12 million for a one-year deal. Using it again would mean he’d get 120 percent of his 2017 salary, so Bell would get $14.544 million in 2018."

I'm sure he'll feel disrespected with that... :rolleyes:

[DesertSteel]

"Last year, the franchise tag paid Bell $12.12 million for a one-year deal. Using it again would mean he’d get 120 percent of his 2017 salary, so Bell would get $14.544 million in 2018."

I'm sure he'll feel disrespected with that... :rolleyes:
I'm sure that he can make twice that much next year with his burgeoning rap career.

[AtlantaDan]

Apparently no last minute expectation of a deal

The Steelers (http://www.espn.com/nfl/team/_/name/pit/pittsburgh-steelers) have informed Le'Veon Bell (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/15825/le'veon-bell) that he will be franchise tagged for the second consecutive year absent an unlikely deal before Tuesday's deadline, Bell told ESPN....

"We're not coming to a number we both agree on -- they are too low, or I guess they feel I'm too high," Bell said. "I'm playing for strictly my value to the team, that's what I'm asking. I don't think I should settle for anything less than what I'm valued at."

Bell, 26, said he's not bluffing when he told ESPN in January he'll contemplate retirement with a second tag. At the least, he will skip training camp for a second consecutive year if no deal is reached by mid-July.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22657079/leveon-bell-pittsburgh-steelers-gets-franchise-tag-again

(http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22657079/leveon-bell-pittsburgh-steelers-gets-franchise-tag-again)In other words, I am not signing for less than what I believe is my market value. Hard to negotiate when one side decides setting the value of the contract is only their call.

Steelers have until March 14 to fit the cost of tagging Bell under the cap. No Bell deal probably means no meaningful free agency signings.

This from Ed. B. of the P-G

That $14.544 million all would count against their salary cap this year, and at the moment, they have slightly less than $6 million of room, according to Over The Cap. They do not have to be under the cap until free agency starts at 4 p.m. March 14, so they could put the tag on Bell and create the room over the next week by a combination of cutting some veterans and restructuring contracts....

Putting all that cap room in the franchise tag will reduce their ability to sign free agents to, for example, shore up their defense. A multi-year deal would enable the Steelers to reduce that cap number by half at least while still putting more money in Bell’s pocket.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/03/05/le-veon-bell-contract-extension-steelers-franchise-tag-nfl-offseason/stories/201803050087

[Mojouw]

If all that is true, why not hit him with the tag? Why wait?

Also, where are the associated moves that clear the cap space needed for either a long-term deal or the tag?

Finally, depending on how much they want to cut from the roster (Mitchell, Wilcox, DHB, William Gay) and/or restructure (Ben R? Pouncey?) the team can clear tens of million of dollars in cap space.

My take - a flurry of moves gets announced in the next 12 hours or so.

Bell gets tagged.
Mitchell, DHB, and William Gay get the axe. Hopefully Golden as well.
Wilcox re-works his deal and sticks around. Steelers "bare bones" plan is that Wilcox plays SS and Davis plays FS.
A large offer to some free agent LB gets put out there. We may never hear about it.
Depending on LB response, a decent offer goes out to a DB. We may also never hear about this.

[AtlantaDan]

If all that is true, why not hit him with the tag? Why wait?

Either a delusional belief that a deal could be struck before the tag deadline or optics of holding off tagging until the deadline as an indication to the locker room (which no doubt wants Bell to get paid) that tagging was a last resort to keep him from walking only after negotiations up to the deadline failed


Also, where are the associated moves that clear the cap space needed for either a long-term deal or the tag?

They have a week to make those


Finally, depending on how much they want to cut from the roster (Mitchell, Wilcox, DHB, William Gay) and/or restructure (Ben R? Pouncey?) the team can clear tens of million of dollars in cap space.

My take - a flurry of moves gets announced in the next 12 hours or so.

Bell gets tagged.

Mitchell, DHB, and William Gay get the axe. Hopefully Golden as well.

Wilcox re-works his deal and sticks around. Steelers "bare bones" plan is that Wilcox plays SS and Davis plays FS.

IMO Ben is waiting for Cousins, Brees and Rodgers to set the top shelf QB market before he restructures

With regard to Wilcox, this from Ray Fittipaldo of the P-G in his chat today

What do they see in Wilcox that they would try to retain him?
Ray Fittipaldo: No idea. They couldn't even dress him at the end of the year because he was making too many mistakes on special teams.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/03/05/Ray-Fittipaldo-Steelers-chat-3-5-18/stories/201803050077

[steelreserve]

"We're not coming to a number we both agree on -- they are too low, or I guess they feel I'm too high," Bell said. "I'm playing for strictly my value to the team, that's what I'm asking. I don't think I should settle for anything less than what I'm valued at."

Bell, 26, said he's not bluffing when he told ESPN in January he'll contemplate retirement with a second tag. At the least, he will skip training camp for a second consecutive year if no deal is reached by mid-July.


"Money is important and I won't settle for anything less that what I think my fair value is - so to prove that point, I'll earn nothing. That'll show 'em!"

Man, the guy must really love his mother to have the last name Bell, because I'm guessing at some point he must have changed it from Le'Veon Bell-Einstein.




If all that is true, why not hit him with the tag? Why wait?

It probably has to do with respeck. Mr. Bell-Einstein spooks easily, so we're probably worried that if we tagged him any sooner than the last possible second, he'll take it as a sign of disrespeck and start his pouting cycle instead of negotiating.



Also, where are the associated moves that clear the cap space needed for either a long-term deal or the tag?

Finally, depending on how much they want to cut from the roster (Mitchell, Wilcox, DHB, William Gay) and/or restructure (Ben R? Pouncey?) the team can clear tens of million of dollars in cap space.

My take - a flurry of moves gets announced in the next 12 hours or so.

Bell gets tagged.
Mitchell, DHB, and William Gay get the axe. Hopefully Golden as well.
Wilcox re-works his deal and sticks around. Steelers "bare bones" plan is that Wilcox plays SS and Davis plays FS.
A large offer to some free agent LB gets put out there. We may never hear about it.
Depending on LB response, a decent offer goes out to a DB. We may also never hear about this.

I think this all makes a good deal of sense. The one exception being that we *COULD* try the Shazier trick (tear up his 1-year $9.7M contract and "extend" him to a 2-year, $10M contract with all but the minimum as a signing bonus) to free up short-term cap space if we want to avoid cutting Mitchell. Or maybe that could allow us to cut Mitchell and bring in a good FA at either safety or LB, whichever we think we aren't drafting highly.

One thing that's certain is that being on Total Drama Island with Bell and the franchise tag will severely mess up our ability to patch up holes in the defense through free agency, meaning for example, that quality two-deep ILB rotation that we were all hoping for would be a pipe dream.

[Mojouw]

Meh. Every single franchise tag candidate threatens to sit out, retire, not sign, feel disrespected, and on and on. They all sign. They all play. The players have no leverage and all these loud and seemingly nonsensical statements are just Bell and other players trying to feel in control of a situation that is totally out of their hands. :jerkit:

It isn't like any of the guys ever tagged are like "What an honor. It just shows how much this franchise values me and my role here. I can't wait to go through a contentious negotiation where I have no leverage and the team has no incentive to give me what I want. Again, just really glad that I have the security of playing a sport where catastrophic injury is one play away and I am only under contract for 12 more months. Just really glad that the team wanted me enough to give me the franchise tag. Truly a great honor and just such an incentive to work even harder."

I don't think a two deep ILB group is a pipe dream or impossible. Just do this:

1. Nigel Bradham level free agent. Say roughly $6 million bucks and let Khan get creative with the #'s. Likely hits the cap for about 4 million. That is couch cushion money for an NFL team.
2. Vince Williams still starts. He's earned it and most of the drop-off wasn't his fault and out of his control to correct.
3. Draft a rookie LB. Whoever they drafted was going to be top 3 in the rotation no matter what. I mean if you draft a kid in the first 3 rounds and they aren't -- well then you screwed up.
4. Make the Lawrence Timmons reunion tour happen. He went to Miami and hated it. Give him 2 year deal and minimal money.

All that can be done even if Bell plays on the tag. Means you gotta cut Mitchell, Golden, Wilcox, Gay, and DHB plus go to Ben for a restructure/extension, but most of that is happening anyways. I am also fully aware that my ILB plan outlined above means that the ONLY safety on the roster is Sean Davis. Well, is that really a problem? Which one of Mitchell, Golden, and Wilcox does anyone want to pay actual NFL contract money to? Plus with the talk of the Steelers thinking of switching Sutton and/or Allen to safety, I think they know the guys on the roster aren't worth it...

[steelreserve]

Meh. Every single franchise tag candidate threatens to sit out, retire, not sign, feel disrespected, and on and on. They all sign. They all play. The players have no leverage and all these loud and seemingly nonsensical statements are just Bell and other players trying to feel in control of a situation that is totally out of their hands. :jerkit:

It isn't like any of the guys ever tagged are like "What an honor. It just shows how much this franchise values me and my role here. I can't wait to go through a contentious negotiation where I have no leverage and the team has no incentive to give me what I want. Again, just really glad that I have the security of playing a sport where catastrophic injury is one play away and I am only under contract for 12 more months. Just really glad that the team wanted me enough to give me the franchise tag. Truly a great honor and just such an incentive to work even harder."

Nobody's saying he should be jumping for joy, but Bell-Einstein has been a particular asshole about it, and I mean that compared to other players who have gotten the franchise tag. He has huge leverage in that the team wants him to be a key player for years to come, and wants to get the cap situation settled.

Funny thing is, while he's doing all his complaining, he's getting paid what he wanted. I guess with the franchise tag there are no guarantees beyond year-to-year, but as with everything in life, there are tradeoffs. But as soon as he signs the second tag he's already "won" the money battle, and is essentially then playing with house money from then on. He already confirmed the offer he turned down would've averaged more than the tag value, every year for the life of the contract, with most of it frontloaded. I guess I just don't understand what he wants.



I don't think a two deep ILB group is a pipe dream or impossible. Just do this:

1. Nigel Bradham level free agent. Say roughly $6 million bucks and let Khan get creative with the #'s. Likely hits the cap for about 4 million. That is couch cushion money for an NFL team.
2. Vince Williams still starts. He's earned it and most of the drop-off wasn't his fault and out of his control to correct.
3. Draft a rookie LB. Whoever they drafted was going to be top 3 in the rotation no matter what. I mean if you draft a kid in the first 3 rounds and they aren't -- well then you screwed up.
4. Make the Lawrence Timmons reunion tour happen. He went to Miami and hated it. Give him 2 year deal and minimal money.

All that can be done even if Bell plays on the tag. Means you gotta cut Mitchell, Golden, Wilcox, Gay, and DHB plus go to Ben for a restructure/extension, but most of that is happening anyways. I am also fully aware that my ILB plan outlined above means that the ONLY safety on the roster is Sean Davis. Well, is that really a problem? Which one of Mitchell, Golden, and Wilcox does anyone want to pay actual NFL contract money to? Plus with the talk of the Steelers thinking of switching Sutton and/or Allen to safety, I think they know the guys on the roster aren't worth it...

I think #2-4 are real possibilities for sure ... by the way, in case there's any mistake about it, I think Williams is a fine starting ILB, but only as long as the other starting LB has a certain skill set. If the other starting LB has the same weaknesses as Williams, they both get magnified and it's a real problem. We'd need one guy to do that job, Timmons for depth, and someone to surpass Timmons in a year or two, which is basically everything you just suggested.

The only thing is, with Bell on the franchise tag, #1 would likely be dependent on cutting Mitchell. With Bell on a more cap-friendly contract, we wouldn't have to cut Mitchell.

I'm not in love with the idea of carrying Mitchell for a premium price, but the other short-term options don't seem like they'd be a huge improvement. We may well draft someone for a long-term replacement, but who knows if/when that is ready?

I think Golden stands a good chance of being retained because he is on a cheap contract and seems like he might be developing into a late-blooming special teams ace. So I'd guess him or DHB is gone but not both.

[Mojouw]

Nobody's saying he should be jumping for joy, but Bell-Einstein has been a particular asshole about it, and I mean that compared to other players who have gotten the franchise tag. He has huge leverage in that the team wants him to be a key player for years to come, and wants to get the cap situation settled.

Funny thing is, while he's doing all his complaining, he's getting paid what he wanted. I guess with the franchise tag there are no guarantees beyond year-to-year, but as with everything in life, there are tradeoffs. But as soon as he signs the second tag he's already "won" the money battle, and is essentially then playing with house money from then on. He already confirmed the offer he turned down would've averaged more than the tag value, every year for the life of the contract, with most of it frontloaded. I guess I just don't understand what he wants.




I think #2-4 are real possibilities for sure ... by the way, in case there's any mistake about it, I think Williams is a fine starting ILB, but only as long as the other starting LB has a certain skill set. If the other starting LB has the same weaknesses as Williams, they both get magnified and it's a real problem. We'd need one guy to do that job, Timmons for depth, and someone to surpass Timmons in a year or two, which is basically everything you just suggested.

The only thing is, with Bell on the franchise tag, #1 would likely be dependent on cutting Mitchell. With Bell on a more cap-friendly contract, we wouldn't have to cut Mitchell.

I'm not in love with the idea of carrying Mitchell for a premium price, but the other short-term options don't seem like they'd be a huge improvement. We may well draft someone for a long-term replacement, but who knows if/when that is ready?

I think Golden stands a good chance of being retained because he is on a cheap contract and seems like he might be developing into a late-blooming special teams ace. So I'd guess him or DHB is gone but not both.

I don't think Bell has been any more or less worse about it than most. Eric Berry said he wouldn't play - repeatedly. Kirk Cousins filed a grievance with the union he was so pissed. Walter Jones (LT - Seattle) complained openly and loudly about it years back. Brandon Jacobs (RB) freaked out about his tag. Wilbur Marshall was the first to get the tag under the modern system (Reggie White went to court to be a free agent!) and he went to court to get out of it. I think both Jones and Shaun Alexander staged lengthy holdouts on the Seahawks. Asante Samuel missed all of preseason in New England.

Long story short, we can bat examples back and forth all night and at the end of it all it is just a matter of opinion. I feel that Bell has acted according to the official "I'm pissed about the tag" script that NFL players and agents have developed and repeatedly implemented over the last 2 decades or so. In fact, he hasn't been as ridiculous about it as some - at least in his behavior. His contract demands are kinda ludicrous, but what are you going to do? But, like I said, that's just my take and your (or others) mileage may vary!

I just keep hoping that they can find someone to pay 6-8 million a year to who is better than Mike Mitchell. But that player may only exist in my mind...

[Shoes]

Go away Bell.

[ALLD]

They are going to tag him. I would take two #1s in trade.

[st33lersguy]

If bell wants $17 million a year, he can get it from a poorly managed team like Washington or tampa then disappear for the rest of his career

[Shoes]

I'd give the Browns, Bell & our R1 for the Browns R1. :chuckle:

[teegre]

I'd give the Browns, Bell & our R1 for the Browns R1. :chuckle:

Let’s say that coma to fruition...

At 4, who would you draft?

It’s not often that the Steelers draft that high (the last top ten pick was 17 drafts ago); so, you almost HAVE to draft a QB. Then again, Chubb solves the pass rush; Fitzpatrick is the next All Pro safety; Nelson gives us the best O-line (ever); and, Barkley is a younger (cheaper) version of Bell.

[Shoes]

Let’s say that coma to fruition...

At 4, who would you draft?

It’s not often that the Steelers draft that high (the last top ten pick was 17 drafts ago); so, you almost HAVE to draft a QB. Then again, Chubb solves the pass rush; Fitzpatrick is the next All Pro safety; Nelson gives us the best O-line (ever); and, Barkley is a younger (cheaper) version of Bell.

Don't the Browns have a 1 & 4 pick in R1?

[teegre]

Don't the Browns have a 1 & 4 pick in R1?

Yes, they do.

But, it would be #4, because there’s no way they’re giving up #1.

[AtlantaDan]

Yes, they do.

But, it would be #4, because there’s no way they’re giving up #1.

After the combine, where Saquon Barkley blew everyone away, the assumption now is the Browns draft Barkley with their #1 pick and go QB with the #4 first round pick

Browns will not be in the Bell market if he was a free agent or could be traded after signing the tag

[Mojouw]

Let’s say that coma to fruition...

At 4, who would you draft?

It’s not often that the Steelers draft that high (the last top ten pick was 17 drafts ago); so, you almost HAVE to draft a QB. Then again, Chubb solves the pass rush; Fitzpatrick is the next All Pro safety; Nelson gives us the best O-line (ever); and, Barkley is a younger (cheaper) version of Bell.

Say you can hoodwink the Browns into trading you the #1 overall for Bell and the #27. You have to take a QB there. Everything else is just details. If you can get your QB succession plan squared away, in my mind there is no discussion.

I know that everyone is now convinced that you don't need a QB to win because of Bortles, Foles, and Keenum. Absolute bullshit. The Jags lost the AFC Championship game because Bortles didn't make a play down the field the entire second half and Brady did. The Jags had a suffocating defense, an amazing run game, good coaching, and still came up short because their QB play was almost non-existent. Keenum lost because he ran out of whatever Cinderella fairy dust magic his season was built on and went from providing well above league average play to what, average to below average in the playoffs? The Chiefs just traded Alex Smith because they are tired of mediocre QB playoff come the playoffs. But...but...Foles...what about big dick Nick? Put your hand down you Wawa swilling cheesesteak smeared Iggles fan. Somehow, Foles conjured up a small game run of elite QB play to bring home a championship. Ask the Ravens and Flacco about repeating a great playoff run. Kinda like in hockey when some journeyman goalie stands on his head and steals a series then everyone wonders why the team isn't any good the next season. Regression to the mean my friends, it is a cruel mistress that comes for us all.

Oh, but, Mojouw, the Steelers lost in the first round - again. So what good is a QB without (whatever reason you prefer for losing)? Well, a QB still gets you a chance to lose in the playoffs every year. Without one you get to "Jeff Fisher" this sum' bitch each year - go 8-8 or 9-7 and mumble something about playing harder next year. Screw that. If I have a top 10 Qb, my team goes 8-8 without even trying. 10-6 with a few complementary pieces that don't drool into their facemasks and 12-4 or better with any actual players to help the QB. Yeah, I'll take the Qb and the box of random puzzle pieces. You take the elite pass rusher and the breathtaking DB. Sounds great right? Well now pair them with Ryan Tannehill - for 6 years. I get Aaron Rodgers. I bet you I hold more parades than you do.

Chiefs and Seahawks field some of the finest safeties in the game. QB play has been the limiting factor in KC and the Seahawks started holding parades once Russell Wilson got handed the offense (a bit of an overplay, but let's not ruin a good rant). Trading Bell and a first round pick and then not taking the QB would be the most short-sighted move since the Herschel Walker or Ricky Williams trades. Broncos, Raiders, Texans, and Cowboys field some of the most ferocious individual pass rushers in the league. They aren't winning diddly squat without better QB play.

To top it all off, you can't even trade Bell anyways because the NFL (for some unknown reason) doesn't do NBA style sign and trades. Additionally, Barkley just put up arguably the best combine ever. Seriously, it may be the best all around performance ever put on by a draft prospect. So unless he gets just torn apart in some sort of zombie uprising, why would the Brown agree to pay L Bell 15 million dollars when they have a potentially better player for 1/3 of that plus Bell only has 3.4 million carries on the odometer...

Look think of it another way. Buddy Ryan and the Reggie White era Eagles fielded some of the most breathtaking defenses I've ever seen. I mean prior to Jerome Brown's passing, I don't think that DLine was blockable by anyone. But Reggie White didn't win meaningful NFL games until he got out of Philly and paired up with Favre in Green Bay. And Reggie White has gotta be one of the baddest dudes to ever play defense in the NFL.

[teegre]

After the combine, where Saquon Barkley blew everyone away, the assumption now is the Browns draft Barkley with their #1 pick and go QB with the #4 first round pick

Browns will not be in the Bell market if he was a free agent or could be traded after signing the tag

Very true. Barkley will NOT be there at 4.

But, in this hypothetical situation, the Browns acquire Bell. Then, with the #1, the Browns hold other teams’ feet to the fire and collect a few extra draft picks to move down from 1 to 3... where they take either Josh Rosen, San Darnold, or Josh Allen.

*(unless they sign a free agent QB and use that pick on Nelson, Chubb, or Fitzpatrick.)

[Shoes]

Say you can hoodwink the Browns into trading you the #1 overall for Bell and the #27. You have to take a QB there. Everything else is just details. If you can get your QB succession plan squared away, in my mind there is no discussion.

I know that everyone is now convinced that you don't need a QB to win because of Bortles, Foles, and Keenum. Absolute bullshit. The Jags lost the AFC Championship game because Bortles didn't make a play down the field the entire second half and Brady did. The Jags had a suffocating defense, an amazing run game, good coaching, and still came up short because their QB play was almost non-existent. Keenum lost because he ran out of whatever Cinderella fairy dust magic his season was built on and went from providing well above league average play to what, average to below average in the playoffs? The Chiefs just traded Alex Smith because they are tired of mediocre QB playoff come the playoffs. But...but...Foles...what about big dick Nick? Put your hand down you Wawa swilling cheesesteak smeared Iggles fan. Somehow, Foles conjured up a small game run of elite QB play to bring home a championship. Ask the Ravens and Flacco about repeating a great playoff run. Kinda like in hockey when some journeyman goalie stands on his head and steals a series then everyone wonders why the team isn't any good the next season. Regression to the mean my friends, it is a cruel mistress that comes for us all.

Oh, but, Mojouw, the Steelers lost in the first round - again. So what good is a QB without (whatever reason you prefer for losing)? Well, a QB still gets you a chance to lose in the playoffs every year. Without one you get to "Jeff Fisher" this sum' bitch each year - go 8-8 or 9-7 and mumble something about playing harder next year. Screw that. If I have a top 10 Qb, my team goes 8-8 without even trying. 10-6 with a few complementary pieces that don't drool into their facemasks and 12-4 or better with any actual players to help the QB. Yeah, I'll take the Qb and the box of random puzzle pieces. You take the elite pass rusher and the breathtaking DB. Sounds great right? Well now pair them with Ryan Tannehill - for 6 years. I get Aaron Rodgers. I bet you I hold more parades than you do.

Chiefs and Seahawks field some of the finest safeties in the game. QB play has been the limiting factor in KC and the Seahawks started holding parades once Russell Wilson got handed the offense (a bit of an overplay, but let's not ruin a good rant). Trading Bell and a first round pick and then not taking the QB would be the most short-sighted move since the Herschel Walker or Ricky Williams trades. Broncos, Raiders, Texans, and Cowboys field some of the most ferocious individual pass rushers in the league. They aren't winning diddly squat without better QB play.

To top it all off, you can't even trade Bell anyways because the NFL (for some unknown reason) doesn't do NBA style sign and trades. Additionally, Barkley just put up arguably the best combine ever. Seriously, it may be the best all around performance ever put on by a draft prospect. So unless he gets just torn apart in some sort of zombie uprising, why would the Brown agree to pay L Bell 15 million dollars when they have a potentially better player for 1/3 of that plus Bell only has 3.4 million carries on the odometer...

Look think of it another way. Buddy Ryan and the Reggie White era Eagles fielded some of the most breathtaking defenses I've ever seen. I mean prior to Jerome Brown's passing, I don't think that DLine was blockable by anyone. But Reggie White didn't win meaningful NFL games until he got out of Philly and paired up with Favre in Green Bay. And Reggie White has gotta be one of the baddest dudes to ever play defense in the NFL.

I even agree with that.

[teegre]

You have to take a QB there.


Which is why I think that the rumors of the Giants NOT taking a QB at 2 are misguided.

[Shoes]

Let’s say that coma to fruition...

At 4, who would you draft?

It’s not often that the Steelers draft that high (the last top ten pick was 17 drafts ago); so, you almost HAVE to draft a QB. Then again, Chubb solves the pass rush; Fitzpatrick is the next All Pro safety; Nelson gives us the best O-line (ever); and, Barkley is a younger (cheaper) version of Bell.


Agreed on a QB, Allen has a super arm but is he accurate? He looks like he's going to be a tough SOB. Bell will be playing mind games if tagged, so the Steelers will most certainly have to draft a RB.

[teegre]

Agreed on a QB, Allen has a super arm but is he accurate? He looks like he's going to be a tough SOB.

Josh Allen is wildly inaccurate, but you can’t teach his ability to throw it 90 yards (no joke).

Then again, Jeff George had the strongest arm I’ve ever seen... :scared:

[Mojouw]

Agreed on a QB, Allen has a super arm but is he accurate? He looks like he's going to be a tough SOB. Bell will be playing mind games if tagged, so the Steelers will most certainly have to draft a RB.


Josh Allen is wildly inaccurate, but you can’t teach his ability to throw it 90 yards (no joke).

Then again, Jeff George had the strongest arm I’ve ever seen... :scared:

Apparently he is no Kyle Boller - https://thebiglead.com/2018/02/20/josh-allen-throw-knees-crossbar-kyle-boller/

Clearly only a 4th round grade at best.

[Born2Steel]

Say you can hoodwink the Browns into trading you the #1 overall for Bell and the #27. You have to take a QB there. Everything else is just details. If you can get your QB succession plan squared away, in my mind there is no discussion.

I know that everyone is now convinced that you don't need a QB to win because of Bortles, Foles, and Keenum. Absolute bullshit. The Jags lost the AFC Championship game because Bortles didn't make a play down the field the entire second half and Brady did. The Jags had a suffocating defense, an amazing run game, good coaching, and still came up short because their QB play was almost non-existent. Keenum lost because he ran out of whatever Cinderella fairy dust magic his season was built on and went from providing well above league average play to what, average to below average in the playoffs? The Chiefs just traded Alex Smith because they are tired of mediocre QB playoff come the playoffs. But...but...Foles...what about big dick Nick? Put your hand down you Wawa swilling cheesesteak smeared Iggles fan. Somehow, Foles conjured up a small game run of elite QB play to bring home a championship. Ask the Ravens and Flacco about repeating a great playoff run. Kinda like in hockey when some journeyman goalie stands on his head and steals a series then everyone wonders why the team isn't any good the next season. Regression to the mean my friends, it is a cruel mistress that comes for us all.

Oh, but, Mojouw, the Steelers lost in the first round - again. So what good is a QB without (whatever reason you prefer for losing)? Well, a QB still gets you a chance to lose in the playoffs every year. Without one you get to "Jeff Fisher" this sum' bitch each year - go 8-8 or 9-7 and mumble something about playing harder next year. Screw that. If I have a top 10 Qb, my team goes 8-8 without even trying. 10-6 with a few complementary pieces that don't drool into their facemasks and 12-4 or better with any actual players to help the QB. Yeah, I'll take the Qb and the box of random puzzle pieces. You take the elite pass rusher and the breathtaking DB. Sounds great right? Well now pair them with Ryan Tannehill - for 6 years. I get Aaron Rodgers. I bet you I hold more parades than you do.

Chiefs and Seahawks field some of the finest safeties in the game. QB play has been the limiting factor in KC and the Seahawks started holding parades once Russell Wilson got handed the offense (a bit of an overplay, but let's not ruin a good rant). Trading Bell and a first round pick and then not taking the QB would be the most short-sighted move since the Herschel Walker or Ricky Williams trades. Broncos, Raiders, Texans, and Cowboys field some of the most ferocious individual pass rushers in the league. They aren't winning diddly squat without better QB play.

To top it all off, you can't even trade Bell anyways because the NFL (for some unknown reason) doesn't do NBA style sign and trades. Additionally, Barkley just put up arguably the best combine ever. Seriously, it may be the best all around performance ever put on by a draft prospect. So unless he gets just torn apart in some sort of zombie uprising, why would the Brown agree to pay L Bell 15 million dollars when they have a potentially better player for 1/3 of that plus Bell only has 3.4 million carries on the odometer...

Look think of it another way. Buddy Ryan and the Reggie White era Eagles fielded some of the most breathtaking defenses I've ever seen. I mean prior to Jerome Brown's passing, I don't think that DLine was blockable by anyone. But Reggie White didn't win meaningful NFL games until he got out of Philly and paired up with Favre in Green Bay. And Reggie White has gotta be one of the baddest dudes to ever play defense in the NFL.

This is the most entertaining post I have read in a very long time. I actually had to stop after each paragraph to finish laughing. Spot on! Great post!

[Mojouw]

This is the most entertaining post I have read in a very long time. I actually had to stop after each paragraph to finish laughing. Spot on! Great post!

I've been grading student writing for about 10 hours now. I'm going more than a little nuts! Also listening to some NFL podcasts and the quality of opinions has been far from insightful...

Anyway, glad I could make someone laugh!

[hawaiiansteeler]

Josh Allen is wildly inaccurate, but you can’t teach his ability to throw it 90 yards (no joke).

Then again, Jeff George had the strongest arm I’ve ever seen... :scared:

JaMarcus Russell had the strongest arm I've ever seen...

[Born2Steel]

My cousin was a TE and says Elway's passes always left a bruise. Of course I always respond with, that's because you can't catch.

[DesertSteel]

Agreed on a QB, Allen has a super arm but is he accurate? He looks like he's going to be a tough SOB. Bell will be playing mind games if tagged, so the Steelers will most certainly have to draft a RB.
Chubb (2nd) or Penny (3rd) would work for me.

[hawaiiansteeler]

John Elway was the only QB I have ever seen who could consistently throw across his body with amazing velocity and accuracy, he definitely has to be in the conversation of strongest arm ever...

[Lady Steel]

Chubb (2nd) or Penny (3rd) would work for me.

You said Chubb. http://randomtopics.org/images/smilies/giggle%20girl.gif

[Steeldude]

Lowball him or tag him.

[teegre]

Apparently he is no Kyle Boller - https://thebiglead.com/2018/02/20/josh-allen-throw-knees-crossbar-kyle-boller/

Clearly only a 4th round grade at best.

After Boller was drafted by the Ravens, JT the Brick (a west coast radio guy and Raidahs shill) lambasted Cowher for not only taking a “safety” over Boller, but Cowher traded up for that “safety”.

When you read “safety” do so with a condescending tone as though a safety was equivalent to drafting a punter in R1.

JT the Brick spent an entire year harping on this.

Man... was he ever wrong.

[BlackAndGold]

Bell will be very dumb if he doesn't take the LT contract.

Does he really believe he'll get the same offers on the FA market? sure some team will throw big money at him but doubtful it's truly a LT deal.

[silver & black]

Too bad his brain wasn't as strong...lol.

[steelreserve]

Bell will be very dumb if he doesn't take the LT contract.

Does he really believe he'll get the same offers on the FA market? sure some team will throw big money at him but doubtful it's truly a LT deal.

It sounds like that's what he really believes. In one of the stories about this, Bell-Einstein said something like "with the Steelers it's different, it's year-to-year and nothing's guaranteed."

lol, that's every NFL team. Actually, with the Steelers it's more likely he'll get all the money because the big contracts end up being restructured so often that it makes you uncuttable until the final year, if even that.

He really does not seem like a very smart or business-savvy individual, and unfortunately the way this works, that's OUR problem to deal with.

I mean really, none of this is rocket science and I have no idea why it takes MONTHS every time. You're hiring ONE guy for a certain number of years; it's not like you're doing a merger with AT&T. If you get a handful of reasonably intelligent people together in a room, this is the kind of thing you should be able to work out in a couple hours, maybe the whole afternoon if it's going slowly. The key to that being "reasonably intelligent."

[Shoes]

Bell will be very dumb if he doesn't take the LT contract.

Does he really believe he'll get the same offers on the FA market? sure some team will throw big money at him but doubtful it's truly a LT deal.

He's already proven that multiple times. He should have jumped on last years offer. I said it before, if Bell isn't signed by draft time, I believe the Steelers will draft his replacement, they won't be held captive to his mind games before TC starts.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2018/03/fowler-steelers-had-formal-meeting-with-rb-derrius-guice-at-combine/

[DesertSteel]

Bell is fooling himself. In 2019 hitting the FA market he will have 6 years of tread off those tires. Does he really think he's going to get a mega deal of $15M a year??? Tag him and run him into the ground in 2018. Draft his replacement for about $1-2M a year.

[teegre]

The Steelers have met with...

Derrius Guice, LSU (pick 28)
Rashaad Penny, SDSU (pick 60)

[Born2Steel]

The Steelers have met with...

Derrius Guice, LSU (pick 28)
Rashaad Penny, SDSU (pick 60)

How many heads on this forum would explode if the Steelers drafted a RB at 28 overall? Mass exodus?

[steelreserve]

How many heads on this forum would explode if the Steelers drafted a RB at 28 overall? Mass exodus?

I would think that if we did that, we'd have already signed a linebacker or safety in FA, or otherwise have something lined up to address at least one of those positions before the draft.

I guess it's pretty unlikely for a big-time FA to be around after draft day (so also unlikely for us to pull the franchise tag from Bell-Einstein) ... but if we had some trick up our sleeve, like a trade worked out in advance for a high-profile player that depended on the money, maybe it could happen. Kind of like the Rams trade but more far-fetched.

Personally I think we go ILB #1, RB #2, S #3 if we haven't worked anything out with Bell long-term. If we do, then we can go all defense.

[DesertSteel]

The Steelers have met with...

Derrius Guice, LSU (pick 28)
Rashaad Penny, SDSU (pick 60)

Guice at 28 IMO would mean the Steelers are considering rescinding the tag at some point. Wouldn't bother me. Penny would be a value pick based on what I see/read.

- - - Updated - - -



Personally I think we go ILB #1, RB #2, S #3 if we haven't worked anything out with Bell long-term. If we do, then we can go all defense.
That's always been my prediction as well.

[stillers4me]

Draft a RB, run the wheels off Bell and let him see if someone will pay him the for whatever's left in him to finish his career. I hope he doesn't even get near enough to sniff the HOF. #selfishasshole

[Buckinnuts]

TAGGED...WONDER HOW RETIREMENT WILL BE!

[stillers4me]

TAGGED...WONDER HOW RETIREMENT WILL BE!

Can he retire...then unretire and sign somewhere else? #becausehelovespittsburghsomuchblahblahblah :hmm:

[steelreserve]

Can he retire...then unretire and sign somewhere else? #becausehelovespittsburghsomuchblahblahblah :hmm:

We would own his rights I'm pretty sure ... although that could possibly be one way to facilitate a trade without the franchise tag being in the way.

[GBMelBlount]

I am glad we did not sign him to a long-term deal.

It is going to be interesting to see how this plays (or doesn't play) out.

[steelreserve]

I am glad we did not sign him to a long-term deal.

It is going to be interesting to see how this plays (or doesn't play) out.

I'm fairly certain it'll play out like Mike Wallace. We keep trying to sign him to a long-term deal, he refuses, bitches and moans a lot. Skips training camp (above and beyond Wallace) then signs somewhere else and doesn't do as well.

The fact that after last year's circus, we apparently sweetened our offer and he still rejected it because he raised his floor to $14.5M a year to match the new franchise tag (which is only a thing because of his own obstinance) ... I mean, that tells me he's in outer space and we're very unlikely to come to a long-term deal with him. If he's not signed to a long-term deal by the draft, we have to assume he's not signing one, might not even show up for the whole season. So then we pretty much have to draft his replacement and straight-up tell him he can fuck off after this year. Which otherwise it's what he'll be telling us, and if we don't think that, we're fooling ourselves.

[Shoes]

I am glad we did not sign him to a long-term deal.

It is going to be interesting to see how this plays (or doesn't play) out.

I think the handwriting is on the wall. The Steelers are not going to give in to Bells demands. He should have taken last years offer or take what the Steelers are now offering. He now thinks more highly of himself then the Steelers or probably any another team does. He's stepped into a fantasy world, I can feel Art II isn't going to put up with his mind games. No contract by draft time, I think the Steelers draft a RB in R1 R2 or R3 and this will be his last year as a Steeler, imo.

[GBMelBlount]

I think the handwriting is on the wall. The Steelers are not going to give in to Bells demands. He should have taken last years offer or take what the Steelers are now offering. He now thinks more highly of himself then the Steelers or probably any another team does. He's stepped into a fantasy world, I can feel Art II isn't going to put up with his mind games. No contract by draft time, I think the Steelers draft a RB in R1 R2 or R3 and this will be his last year as a Steeler, imo.

So if Bell doesn't sign and retires, we save that franchise tag, correct?

If so I would imagine we could draft a RB in the 1st or 2nd and use the money we saved to get a top shelf defensive player at a position of need, IF there are any available.

[hawaiiansteeler]

what more does poor Le'Veon gotta do to be wanted? :smoker:

[Shoes]

So if Bell doesn't sign and retires, we save that franchise tag, correct?

If so I would imagine we could draft a RB in the 1st or 2nd and use the money we saved to get a top shelf defensive player at a position of need, IF there are any available.

I believe that is so, but I'm not up on all the rules.

[steelreserve]

So if Bell doesn't sign and retires, we save that franchise tag, correct?

If so I would imagine we could draft a RB in the 1st or 2nd and use the money we saved to get a top shelf defensive player at a position of need, IF there are any available.

Unfortunately, I bet all that bullshit would happen well after the top free agents are gone and we'd be left with a ton of cap space and nothing to spend it on. Most likely we try to negotiate up until the draft and then that's when we make our final decision.

On the other hand, if we are convinced we can get a good RB in the draft and the opportunity to sign a top defender comes up the first day of free agency, do we pull the tag then? That may be better a year from now than a year of high-priced Bell and then neither a defender nor a running back.

The ideal situation would be if someone signed him off us in the first day of free agency despite the tag, and we got their first-round pick AND the cap space. But I don't think anyone is that stupid. Too bad Al Davis is dead.

[GBMelBlount]

His ypc is average but he also has a lot of value as a receiver.

How easily can that be replaced?

He is a good safety valve / dump off option for Ben.

[Mojouw]

You can still sign a top drawer free agent with the franchise tag and get under the cap. They were prepared to do that with Hightower last year.

Most of the available free agents aren't even going to cost as much as Hightower would have.

Everyone needs to step back and take a breath.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Shoes]

His ypc is average but he also has a lot of value as a receiver.

How easily can that be replaced?

He is a good safety valve / dump off option for Ben.

So is a good TE. :chuckle:

[GBMelBlount]

So is a good TE. :chuckle:

I am 100% with you on that!

[stillers4me]

So is a good TE. :chuckle:

Exactly what I said to Russ yesterday. Draft a Heath/Gronk for Ben and Bell becomes nothing but an above average rapping RB. :lol:

[AtlantaDan]

This from Peter King reiterates what has been posted here - Bell is simply not worth what Bell wants in a long term contract

Le’Veon Bell: Game-Changing Back Who Is Absolutely Not Worth $14 Million a Season (https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/03/07/leveon-bell-pittsburgh-steelers-contract-franchise-tag-mmqb-peter-king)

I think he’s great. If you give me one running back for one game, I take Bell over the rest. He’s the state-of-the-art back at being patient and picking the right hole, and there’s no three-down back close to him in football right now because of his ability to split wide or run routes from the slot. In another life, he’d have been an NFL wideout....

But I would not pay the man $14 million a year on a long-term deal....

Employing big-time running backs doesn’t equate to winning Super Bowls...No one disputes the greatness of Bell. But at this place, at this time, the Steelers need impact defensive players more than they need a long-term commitment to a great back.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/03/07/leveon-bell-pittsburgh-steelers-contract-franchise-tag-mmqb-peter-king

King's columns reflect league consensus views. I have posted there is some idiotic team out there that will overpay Bell what he wants on a long term contract but maybe not - Bell might have turned down more in a long term deal from the Steelers than he would get anywhere else
(https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/03/07/leveon-bell-pittsburgh-steelers-contract-franchise-tag-mmqb-peter-king)

[DesertSteel]

This from Peter King reiterates what has been posted here - Bell is simply not worth what Bell wants in a long term contract

Le’Veon Bell: Game-Changing Back Who Is Absolutely Not Worth $14 Million a Season (https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/03/07/leveon-bell-pittsburgh-steelers-contract-franchise-tag-mmqb-peter-king)

I think he’s great. If you give me one running back for one game, I take Bell over the rest. He’s the state-of-the-art back at being patient and picking the right hole, and there’s no three-down back close to him in football right now because of his ability to split wide or run routes from the slot. In another life, he’d have been an NFL wideout....

But I would not pay the man $14 million a year on a long-term deal....

Employing big-time running backs doesn’t equate to winning Super Bowls...No one disputes the greatness of Bell. But at this place, at this time, the Steelers need impact defensive players more than they need a long-term commitment to a great back.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/03/07/leveon-bell-pittsburgh-steelers-contract-franchise-tag-mmqb-peter-king

King's columns reflect league consensus views. I have posted there is some idiotic team out there that will overpay Bell what he wants on a long term contract but maybe not - Bell might have turned down more in a long term deal from the Steelers than he would get anywhere else
(https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/03/07/leveon-bell-pittsburgh-steelers-contract-franchise-tag-mmqb-peter-king)
Against the grain of a few on here, but I agree with King on Bell. Especially when I hear stats thrown around that we average the SAME amount of points in the games he misses as when he plays and that we are 11-4 without him.

[Mojouw]

I think even most of the "sign Bell long term" advocates would agree with King. I know that I do. I really think that signing Bell to a 3-5 year deal is a great idea for the Steelers. However, I also think that going above about 12.5 on average is a really bad idea. Seems that the Steelers do as well.

What Bell fails to realize is that the Steelers hold all the cards in this situation. Bell is playing out the aggrieved franchise tagged player script pretty well, but it never really works. This only ends a few ways and NONE of them involve Bell getting everything he wants. What incentive does anyone not named Leveon Bell have to do that? Zero.

I do think the only thing that sucks about all this is that the Steelers are staring down the barrel of an off-season they absolutely have to get exactly right or things get pretty crappy from a roster construction point of view really really really fast.

1. Need to determine what happens in life after Leveon Bell. Is it Conner? Is it a back in this 18 draft? Or can that be pushed to the 19 draft?
2. Need to determine what the plan is for life after Martavis Bryant. I know his stats are not good, but he significantly impacts how teams line up and defend the Steelers. So do you draft a "lid lifting" WR in 18? Wait until 19?
3. WTF is the plan for the TE group? MacDonald and a hoped for progression from Jesse "I can't block anyone in the NFL" James? I know this is a sore point, but a big part of the reason that 4th and 1 toss looked so bad was that James got overwhelmed at the point of attack (@ least I'm pretty sure it was him - haven't been able to bring myself to watch it!). Shocking, I know. But the intermittent blocking at the TE position is really limiting the run game.

Now those are 3 pretty darn big questions and that's on the "good" side of the ball!

[Shoes]

Anyone know what Bell's price is? I heard about 17M . He turned down 13-14 m last year and the Steelers increased that this year and he turned that down also. Sure can't say the Steelers didn't do their part. I'd dump the shit bag.

[teegre]

My gut tells me that Bell will have until the draft to sign a long-term deal.

Otherwise, I see the Steelers planning as if he is indeed retired, and drafting one of the many RBs in this draft. Once that is done, I could see the Steelers rescinding the franchise tag (and moving on).

[steelreserve]

Anyone know what Bell's price is? I heard about 17M . He turned down 13-14 m last year and the Steelers increased that this year and he turned that down also. Sure can't say the Steelers didn't do their part. I'd dump the shit bag.

Last I read was that he raised his FLOOR to $14.5M a year average. I don't see us paying that much, and that's just his starting point. $15M, $16M, $17M - it could all be possible.

My gut feeling is that he's going to turn down whatever we offer him even if it's exactly what he wants. We offer him $15M - guess what, he changed his mind and it's now $17M. We offer him $17M - nope, now there's not enough guaranteed. It's too this, it's too that, until he's a free agent, because that's what his mind is set on.

Why? Because it seems like he has it in his head that there is always something bigger and better over the horizon - who knows what - but the only thing for certain is that he has to go somewhere else. Not anywhere in particular, just somewhere else. That's what it'll take to satisfy himself that he got a good deal, and that's the one thing we can't offer. Maybe he even relishes the drama of it all.

I've seen that kind of mentality before. Sucks. There's nothing we can do about it, though. So, the only question is whether we prepare to move on now or later.

[teegre]

Last I read was that he raised his FLOOR to $14.5M a year average. I don't see us paying that much, and that's just his starting point. $15M, $16M, $17M - it could all be possible.

My gut feeling is that he's going to turn down whatever we offer him even if it's exactly what he wants. We offer him $15M - guess what, he changed his mind and it's now $17M. We offer him $17M - nope, now there's not enough guaranteed. It's too this, it's too that, until he's a free agent, because that's what his mind is set on.

Why? Because it seems like he has it in his head that there is always something bigger and better over the horizon - who knows what - but the only thing for certain is that he has to go somewhere else. Not anywhere in particular, just somewhere else. That's what it'll take to satisfy himself that he got a good deal, and that's the one thing we can't offer. Maybe he even relishes the drama of it all.

I've seen that kind of mentality before. Sucks. There's nothing we can do about it, though. So, the only question is whether we prepare to move on now or later.

Barry Bonds

[Mojouw]

My gut tells me that Bell will have until the draft to sign a long-term deal.

Otherwise, I see the Steelers planning as if he is indeed retired, and drafting one of the many RBs in this draft. Once that is done, I could see the Steelers rescinding the franchise tag (and moving on).

The more I think about it, the more I don't see that happening. I kinda think they just roll with Bell this season. Conner caddies again. Maybe a Day 3 or UDFA kid comes along for the ride as the 3rd back. Then in the offseason they tell Bell "so long" and use the 2019 draft to get their next RB.

Or push it to 2020 and wait for Jonathan Taylor to be draft eligible.


https://youtu.be/XP899W1unP4

[teegre]

The more I think about it, the more I don't see that happening. I kinda think they just roll with Bell this season. Conner caddies again. Maybe a Day 3 or UDFA kid comes along for the ride as the 3rd back. Then in the offseason they tell Bell "so long" and use the 2019 draft to get their next RB.

Or push it to 2020 and wait for Jonathan Taylor to be draft eligible.


https://youtu.be/XP899W1unP4

If Bell plays, then I agree. Run with him for one more season, see if Conner can improve. And, re-evaluate next offseason.

But, if Bell retires, and then comes back in week 10 (just enough time to count as a full season)... :scared:

[Mojouw]

If Bell plays, then I agree. Run with him for one more season, see if Conner can improve. And, re-evaluate next offseason.

But, if Bell retires, and then comes back in week 10 (just enough time to count as a full season)... :scared:

Yeah - that scenario exists. I just don't buy for a single second that Bell doesn't play in 2018.

Almost every single franchise tagged player has threatened to sit out and/or retire. No one has done it yet. Not a single player (@ least to my knowledge).

I doubt that Bell will be the first. Despite what he is claiming $14.5 million is a ton of money.

[teegre]

Yeah - that scenario exists. I just don't buy for a single second that Bell doesn't play in 2018.

Almost every single franchise tagged player has threatened to sit out and/or retire. No one has done it yet. Not a single player (@ least to my knowledge).

I doubt that Bell will be the first. Despite what he is claiming $14.5 million is a ton of money.

True.
No one has ever sat out the “entire” season, but I’m pretty sure that at least one player has sat out until Week 10.

(I’ll Google it later.)

[tube517]

True.
No one has ever sat out the “entire” season, but I’m pretty sure that at least one player has sat out until Week 10.

(I’ll Google it later.)

John Riggins sat out the 1980 season.

[steelreserve]

True.
No one has ever sat out the “entire” season, but I’m pretty sure that at least one player has sat out until Week 10.

(I’ll Google it later.)

A couple people sat out the entire season back in the 1990s. Last time any franchise-tagged player missed any regular-season games at all was 2002.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/13263074/jason-pierre-paul-join-six-franchise-tag-players-missed-games-signing

Keep in mind, back then I think the franchise tag values were like $3M or $4M a season, nothing at all like the amount of money getting thrown around today. Bell isn't going to miss a million dollars a game.

- - - Updated - - -


Barry Bonds

Plaxico Burress, Mike Wallace ... Terrell Owens, Jason Giambi, LeBron James

There are just some times when, for a variety of reasons, you could offer a player all the money in the world and it wouldn't matter. They want to feel bold and in control, and they get that by going to a different team.

Sometimes they're unhappy with their original team, sometimes not, it doesn't really matter. I don't think Bell-Einstein is necessarily unhappy with the Steelers, but it has the control thing written ALL OVER it, so it's a moot point. 90% he will not be back at any price.

[ALLD]

You will see how mature Bell is if he shows up for camp or not. This will be his last season as a Steeler. I am getting tired of the prima donnas. I remember what happened to baseball in the 1990s when players went on strike. My George Foreman guarantee is whatever Bell thinks is going to happen, will not.

[vader29]

971358506292006912

[stillers4me]

It's all about the benjamins....and not the one handing off to him.

:couch:

[DesertSteel]

You will see how mature Bell is if he shows up for camp or not. This will be his last season as a Steeler. I am getting tired of the prima donnas. I remember what happened to baseball in the 1990s when players went on strike. My George Foreman guarantee is whatever Bell thinks is going to happen, will not.
There’s no IF... Bell will not show up for any of camp or preseason. Zero chance.

[AtlantaDan]

I am getting tired of the prima donnas. I remember what happened to baseball in the 1990s when players went on strike.

The players and owners both got richer?

Average Baseball Salary Up 20,700% Since First CBA in 1968

1994 - $1,110,766
2015 - $3,952,252

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2016/04/07/average-baseball-salary-up-20700-since-first-cba-in-1968/#54d722713e48

[AtlantaDan]

Anyone know what Bell's price is? I heard about 17M . He turned down 13-14 m last year and the Steelers increased that this year and he turned that down also. Sure can't say the Steelers didn't do their part. I'd dump the shit bag.

This is the most comprehensive summary I have read of the alleged offers

“Bell, 26, confirmed last year he turned down a contract worth $42 million over the first three years and an average of $13.3 million over the life of the deal.”...

“I understand how the Steelers do contracts. Last year, I was pounding the table on guaranteed money. That’s not the case. If I’m not getting guaranteed money, I want a lot more up front.”...

With [ESPN] reporting that Pittsburgh had improved their position from last season, it seems fair to assume the average per season on the table was at least in the $14 million per year range, a total value of around $70 million. Although there has been no indication of signing bonus amounts, team history suggests the Steelers would be prepared to pay at least $15 million and no more than $20 million for putting pen to paper against a deal of that size.

Given Pittsburgh’s offer is still “too low” for Bell and apparently does not include enough upfront money, the logical conclusion would be that he is looking for at least $15 million a year and a signing bonus that would more than match a deal worth $75 million over five years.

https://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2018/03/05/understanding-the-contract-demands-of-leveon-bell/

[Mojouw]

There is one really easy solution to this annual cycle of hand-wringing and pearl clutching over NFL contracts. Guarantee the blasted things. Only major American pro sport that doesn't. Add in NBA style sign and trades and this whole cycle of ridiculousness goes away a bit.

As an added benefit, it likely drives player salaries down somewhat, as more of the money in the contract would be actually given to the players. All it would likely take is to get rid of the rule that makes owners place guaranteed money in an escrow account - a stupid rule that has all the sense of how Congress funds the Post Office...

[AtlantaDan]

There is one really easy solution to this annual cycle of hand-wringing and pearl clutching over NFL contracts. Guarantee the blasted things. Only major American pro sport that doesn't. Add in NBA style sign and trades and this whole cycle of ridiculousness goes away a bit.

As an added benefit, it likely drives player salaries down somewhat, as more of the money in the contract would be actually given to the players. All it would likely take is to get rid of the rule that makes owners place guaranteed money in an escrow account - a stupid rule that has all the sense of how Congress funds the Post Office...

Why would the owners want to do that?

When someone says about any system that it is not working (e.g. - how airlines treat passengers/how Congress passes legislation) my standard response is the system works just fine for those who benefit from and control it

The owners have indicated in the past they can and will break a strike rather than give up control over what matters most to them - paying off contracts when the owners are ready to toss the player aside is one of those matters

[Mojouw]

Why would the owners want to do that?

When someone says about any system that it is not working (e.g. - how airlines treat passengers/how Congress passes legislation) my standard response is the system works just fine for those who benefit from and control it

The owners have indicated in the past they can and will break a strike rather than give up control over what matters most to them - paying off contracts when the owners are ready to toss the player aside is one of those matters

Oh, I totally realize that the owners would never agree to that and have resisted it stridently in the past. I just wanted to point out that if people really want to get to the root of the issue over contentious contract negotiations every off-season in the NFL, look past the players, past the slick agents, and set your sights squarely on the owners. They are the single largest obstacle to labor peace and better relations between teams and players.

But as you have correctly pointed out, why would they change a thing? They take none of the risk, reap all of the benefits, and until the NFL isn't making oodles of money nothing will change.

But I also believe that it is the greed, unwillingness to compromise, and increasingly transparent idea that teams view players as disposable commodities that will kill the NFL off. Too many of the old guard owners or ownership groups that were willing to sacrifice profits and fame for the long term benefit of all franchises and even the players in some cases are simply dying off. When the NFL is run solely by Jerry Jones, Dan Snyder style owners, look out...

[steelreserve]

Why would the owners want to do that?

When someone says about any system that it is not working (e.g. - how airlines treat passengers/how Congress passes legislation) my standard response is the system works just fine for those who benefit from and control it

The owners have indicated in the past they can and will break a strike rather than give up control over what matters most to them - paying off contracts when the owners are ready to toss the player aside is one of those matters


I don't understand how one way or the other benefits the owners more. It's not like NFL owners are "saving" any money by cutting a player loose before his contract is over - they simply end up paying the money to someone else. Every team is at or near the salary cap every season, and there is a minimum salary floor too.

So it gives the GMs somewhat more flexibility with contracts, at the expense of more convoluted negotiations. Fully guaranteed contracts might make negotiations with players less complicated, but it would also bring about a whole bunch of other maneuvering like trades to dump salary, buyouts, negotiations between teams about who picks up how much of an existing contract ... probably lower maximum salaries because of aversion to risk. None of which affects the owners financially even a little bit, the salary cap is the same percentage of revenues no matter what the rules are for paying it out.

I don't understand how people can argue it's done that way because of "greedy owners," because it doesn't affect the total amount of money paid to players one bit. Not a penny. Maybe it affects the risks of giving out a big contract, but only from a competitive standpoint, not a financial one. I guess the emotional argument is easier to latch on to than the logical one.

As I said earlier, I don't think it would have much impact on our ability to sign Bell-Einstein to a long-term deal either. He has to change teams in order to prove ... something ... to himself, and he won't be happy until he does. You can see it. In the meantime, we can put anything we want on the table and he'll tell himself "Yeah, but I can get that somewhere else next year too, it needs to be more to convince me to stay." Then if we sweeten the deal, it'll be "Yeah, but I can get that somewhere else next year too, it needs to be more to convince me to stay." Repeat until July 15.

[st33lersguy]

And he says he wants to be a steeler for life. His actions seem to indicate something else. 13 mil a year would seemingly be more than enough if playing for the Steelers was his top priority

[steelreserve]

And he says he wants to be a steeler for life. His actions seem to indicate something else. 13 mil a year would seemingly be more than enough if playing for the Steelers was his top priority

I don't think there's any way he signs a long-term deal before the deadline. Certainly not before the draft, and that's when things get interesting. He looks like he's in full-on Pouty Drama Mode already.

If he signs a multi-year contract this offseason, I swear I will roll around in dogshit for an hour. Well, maybe not. Tell you what, I'll start a GoFundMe campaign and if it gets high enough I'll roll around in dogshit.

[Mojouw]

https://deadspin.com/why-only-the-nfl-doesnt-guarantee-contracts-1797020799

Pretty interesting read on the issue.

I have long said it is mostly a result of players being dumb.

"I'm the highest paid player at my position! I am so awesome!" - Player A blasts out to social media while the ink is barely dry on his new contract. Then you see the details and like 60+% of the money is on the back-end of the deal when the dude is cheaper cap wise to cut than to pay.

"I have signed an extension with my team." - Player B announces. You hear the money involved and your like that's it? Then you look at that bad bear and like 65% of it is ironclad guaranteed.

It is then that I realize the owners must just laugh and laugh at these players and agents. They are pretty easy to trick.

[Shoes]

Anyone know how much money we would save if we let Bell walk?


This was interesting. Could the Steelers still use the Transition Tag since they have already tagged him?


Franchise/Transition Tags

If the Steelers are not able to come to an agreement with Bell on a long-term deal by March 6 and want him on the roster in 2018, they would have to place a tag on him. There are three different tags at their disposal. All three would pay Bell the same $14.544 million salary (a 20% raise over his 2017 salary), but there are important differences between each. The Exclusive Franchise Tag would give only the Steelers rights to have Le’Veon Bell play for them in 2018. This was the tag the Steelers used in 2017 where Bell was not allowed to negotiate with other teams and could either play for the Steelers on the one-year deal or sit out the season. The second option is the Non-Exclusive Franchise Tag. With this designation, Bell would have the opportunity to negotiate a long-term contract with other teams. If he reached an agreement with another team, the Steelers would have the option to match that contract offer, at which point the Steelers would have Bell signed long-term under those same contract stipulations. If Bell agreed to a contract offer from another team and the Steelers did not match that offer, the Steelers would receive two first round picks in compensation from that team. Finally, the Steelers could place the Transition Tag on Bell. The Transition Tag would allow Bell to negotiate with other teams, just like the Non-Exclusive Franchise Tag. However, if Bell received the Transition Tag then agreed to contract terms with another team, the Steelers would not have the opportunity to match that contract offer and would receive no draft pick compensation in return.

[steelreserve]

I don't think the tranny tag helps us at all. It would be pretty straightforward for some other team with more cap space to take advantage of that and offer him a poison-pill frontloaded contract that we couldn't match. Then we'd get nothing in return. As one user put it a while ago, it's basically legalized tampering.

I think the deadline to apply all tags has passed now, so we can't go back and pull one to offer another.

[Shoes]

I don't think the tranny tag helps us at all. It would be pretty straightforward for some other team with more cap space to take advantage of that and offer him a poison-pill frontloaded contract that we couldn't match. Then we'd get nothing in return. As one user put it a while ago, it's basically legalized tampering.

I think the deadline to apply all tags has passed now, so we can't go back and pull one to offer another.

Couldn't we let him walk, that should give us a R3 comp in 2019

[86WARD]

I think Sean Gilbert sat out a year and I think there was a player that held out until Week 10or close to it...Vincent Jackson maybe?

[AtlantaDan]

I think Sean Gilbert sat out a year and I think there was a player that held out until Week 10or close to it...Vincent Jackson maybe?

It was pre-free agency but Mike Merriweather sat out the 1988 season in a salary dispute for what was arguably the second worst Steelers team (the 1-13 1969 team was worse) in the period since Noll was hired

Steelers shipped Merriweather to the Vikings for a first round pick prior to the 1989 season

[AtlantaDan]

Steelers running back Le'Veon Bell confuses many with Instagram chat

Le'Veon Bell held a live chat with fans Wednesday night on his Instagram account so he could clear up any confusion about his contract demands.

All the Steelers running back did was muddy the situation further during his 30-minute session.

Bell answered a question by saying he would not sit out during the season, but stated he would repeat his stance from 2017 when he skipped training camp before signing his franchise-tag tender a week before the start of the regular season.

In the next breath, Bell indicated he might not take the field until Week 4....

A day earlier, in an article released by Billboard.com (http://Billboard.com), Bell said he would consider sitting out until Week 10....

“Me saying I was going to sit out was more emotional at the time,” Bell said, in reference to the Billboard article. “When I was asked the question, that's the way I felt at the time. I might come in Week 1. I might come in Week 4. I don't know what week I'm going to come in, but I'm going to play this year, though.

“I'm going to play. I just don't know when I'm going to play.” :der:

http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/13393794-74/steelers-running-back-leveon-bell-confuses-many-with-instagram-chat

No surprise the Steelers could not negotiate a long term deal with Bell constantly changing his mind in order to be certain he is "winning"

[Lady Steel]

“I'm going to play. I just don't know when I'm going to play.” :der:


:lol: Yeah, he's nuts.

[steelreserve]

Bell answered a question by saying he would not sit out during the season, but stated he would repeat his stance from 2017 when he skipped training camp before signing his franchise-tag tender a week before the start of the regular season.

In the next breath, Bell indicated he might not take the field until Week 4....

I don't understand what that gains you. We went over this last season.

You have literally zero chance of receiving a better contract by skipping training camp; league rules prohibit it. You have zero chance of receiving more money by skipping games, you lose money.

At that point, what good does it even do to show you're unhappy? It's already clear he's not coming back if there's no multi-year deal by then. You're not going to get the franchise tag rule changed mid-season. It's JUST throwing a shitfit, and making yourself look like a dildo.

Then again, no one accused Mr. Bell-Einstein of being the smartest guy in the world when it comes to this kind of thing.

[DesertSteel]

I don't understand what that gains you. We went over this last season.

You have literally zero chance of receiving a better contract by skipping training camp; league rules prohibit it. You have zero chance of receiving more money by skipping games, you lose money.

At that point, what good does it even do to show you're unhappy? It's already clear he's not coming back if there's no multi-year deal by then. You're not going to get the franchise tag rule changed mid-season. It's JUST throwing a shitfit, and making yourself look like a dildo.

Then again, no one accused Mr. Bell-Einstein of being the smartest guy in the world when it comes to this kind of thing.
That's why he's coming out with it now instead of waiting and keeping it a mystery. He's hoping that the leverage will be gained by making it known that he won't show up without a LT deal.

TBH - I really don't care if he shows or not. He's a childish me-first player and I'd rather the team move on without him.

[Shoes]

Sounds about right, I'm glad Tomlin doesn't run the Steelers.


Bell went on to say that Steelers head coach Mike Tomlin has told him a few times that if it were up to him, he’d hand a blank check to the running back to write what he wants on it.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2018/03/leveon-bell-im-not-going-to-below-the-number-im-actually-just-kind-of-settling-for/

[steelreserve]

During the interview, Bell was essentially asked if he has a number in mind that he’s comfortable signing long-term for and he agreed he does.

Yeah ... and that number is "a couple million more than the highest offer I get."

[lipps83]

That's why he's coming out with it now instead of waiting and keeping it a mystery. He's hoping that the leverage will be gained by making it known that he won't show up without a LT deal.

TBH - I really don't care if he shows or not. He's a childish me-first player and I'd rather the team move on without him.

But he catches a lot of passes though? How do you replace that when nobody else on the face of the earth can do it?

Worth every penny.

[ALLD]

If he was Earl Campbell I would say pay him $20, but Bell is not. He is also not reliable and has yet I believe to play a full season including the preseason. I would give him more guaranteed money with roster bonus. If he smokes out then he should forfeit everything.

[86WARD]

Bell is a gamechanger. He’s irreplaceable...see how that worked out in the playoffs a couple years ago. Pretty much Todd Gurley is the only other back that would be held in Bell’s class. He’s worth more than any other back out there. Having said that, DeMarco Murray just got the axe in Tennessee...he was making about $7M and now there’s rumors that LaMar Miller and Gio Bernard, who make around the same, are going to hit the streets. The Costs for RBs just isn’t what Bell wants it to be...he’s fighting a losing battle and if the Steelers decide to pay him what he wants, they’re flat out mismanaging their cap.

[Shoes]

Bells on a mission to help all the younger RB's :lol:


“I’m the guy that all the running backs are looking at like, ‘Alright on, Le’Veon. You gotta help us out,'" said Bell, who was franchised tagged for the second consecutive year on Tuesday. “

https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/Pittsburgh-Steelers-LeVeon-Bell-says-younger-RBs-are-relying-on-him-to-reset-the-market-115987075

[86WARD]

The younger RBs don’t have Bell’s talent...so it’s not really going to help them out that much...lol

[DesertSteel]

But he catches a lot of passes though? How do you replace that when nobody else on the face of the earth can do it?

Worth every penny.
We score the exact number of points when he's out as when he plays. And we're 11-4 without him. Explain that.

[Butch]

Sucker punch got into Bell's head early in his career and he is still suffering the effects. He clearly doesn't want to be here and wouldn't be surprised if he ends up a cheat before all is said and done. I am sick and tired of his antics and ready for the Steelers to show him the door.

[fansince'76]

If he was Earl Campbell I would say pay him $20, but Bell is not. He is also not reliable and has yet I believe to play a full season including the preseason. I would give him more guaranteed money with roster bonus. If he smokes out then he should forfeit everything.

Campbell was amazing, but fell off fairly quickly after his third season, IIRC.

[fansince'76]

But he catches a lot of passes though? How do you replace that when nobody else on the face of the earth can do it?

Worth every penny.

We score the exact number of points when he's out as when he plays. And we're 11-4 without him. Explain that.

I think lipps83 was being sarcastic. :chuckle:

[Mojouw]

Alex on the ability of the team to sign Bell AND sign a FA defender:

It isn’t either/or. That’s a false equivalency. Pittsburgh can do both. And most of the elite teams can walk and chew gum at the same time. Keep their own expensive studs while finding new talent. That philosophy has remained constant under Kevin Colbert. That’s the key to winning another Super Bowl.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2018/03/leveon-bell-tag-doesnt-stop-steelers-from-fixing-their-defense/

[DesertSteel]

I think lipps83 was being sarcastic. :chuckle:
I wasn't sure............ :smoker:

- - - Updated - - -


Alex on the ability of the team to sign Bell AND sign a FA defender:

It isn’t either/or. That’s a false equivalency. Pittsburgh can do both. And most of the elite teams can walk and chew gum at the same time. Keep their own expensive studs while finding new talent. That philosophy has remained constant under Kevin Colbert. That’s the key to winning another Super Bowl.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2018/03/leveon-bell-tag-doesnt-stop-steelers-from-fixing-their-defense/
Where is the "constant" of Colbert signing talent outside of our own stable?

[Mojouw]

I wasn't sure............ :smoker:

- - - Updated - - -


Where is the "constant" of Colbert signing talent outside of our own stable?

Kimo Von Olhoffen (however it is actually spelled!)
Jeff Hartings
Maddox
Farrior
Mathis
Batch
Wee Willie Williams
Ced Wilson
Ryan Clark
Mewelde Moore
Hartwig
Mike Mitchell
Joe Haden
Villenueva
Alualu
Ladarius Green
Nick Eason

They aren't all world-beaters but those are some guys that played key roles on competitive Steelers teams. Is this team ever going to sign a bunch of $10+ million per year free agents? No. And why would they? This isn't some dumpster fire of an organization like the Jets or Browns that can't identify and develop talent. When you have a constant stream of players in-house that are worth those big money contracts, you don't go outside and take some other teams cast-offs.

Every player that hits free agency hits it for a reason. Most NFL franchises have become excellent at managing the salary cap. They days of unflawed players hitting free agency is largely over. Each year there are maybe 3 guys that hit free agency in their prime without a "hole" to their game. The rest are cut loose because the organization and coaching staff that knows them best has determined they are no longer worth the big $$$ contracts that FA will provide them. Most of these guys are more "name than game".

The really big impacts are largely coming from depth and role player guys or players discarded because they are a poor fit for scheme. Those are the guys that Colbert pounces on.

Let other teams pay big money for a washed up Demarco Murray. A Pernell McPhee who's knees may be shot. Burnett is best deployed as a "box safety" and has recently struggled in coverage. How much of that is the hospital ward that became the Packers secondary last season and how much of that is the beginning of a decline for an 8 year NFL veteran? I don't know and I'm not sure I would want to pay 10-12 million dollars a year to find out.

Trumaine Johnson is one of the few free agents that are hitting the market where you can't really find a flaw. Other than that...there are big concerns about either performance, age, scheme fit, or all of those for each and every potential free agent. There is every year. Each year Colbert and company sift through the pieces and pull a few guys out and add them to the mix.

[DesertSteel]

You're going back 20 years and including backups and guys like Ladarius Green. I'm not criticizing Colbert just the statement from Alex. Colbert is way better at drafting, developing (coaching) and retaining their own talent than he is bringing in talent via FA.

[Mojouw]

You're going back 20 years and including backups and guys like Ladarius Green. I'm not criticizing Colbert just the statement from Alex. Colbert is way better at drafting, developing (coaching) and retaining their own talent than he is bringing in talent via FA.

I guess I'm not understanding your critique. Is it that Colbert doesn't bring in "splashy" guys? Or that the contracts are not expensive? Or anything prior to 5 years ago doesn't count? Only starters?

I figured that the pattern of mid-level veterans signed to fill specific roles (back-ups or specialty roles - 3rd down back, rotational DE, etc) with a few starters mixed in along the way is specifically what the "constant...new talent..." portion of the Alex's statement was. The statement is true and a time-tested method of building an NFL roster (this is the "patriots way" after all).

[DesertSteel]

I guess I'm not understanding your critique. Is it that Colbert doesn't bring in "splashy" guys? Or that the contracts are not expensive? Or anything prior to 5 years ago doesn't count? Only starters?

I figured that the pattern of mid-level veterans signed to fill specific roles (back-ups or specialty roles - 3rd down back, rotational DE, etc) with a few starters mixed in along the way is specifically what the "constant...new talent..." portion of the Alex's statement was. The statement is true and a time-tested method of building an NFL roster (this is the "patriots way" after all).
I'm saying that he doesn't usually bring in Pro Bowl caliber guys. It's not a criticism - just a statement of fact. I really don't think the Steelers handle FA in any way similar to the Patriots. Again, not a criticism because I'm generally happy with their FA approach.

To expand, the whole debate on here is whether they can pay Bell $14.5M and still sign the big FA. I don't hear people on here saying "Oh no, we can't sign Bell and still pick up a couple mid-level backups."

[Mojouw]

I'm saying that he doesn't usually bring in Pro Bowl caliber guys. It's not a criticism - just a statement of fact. I really don't think the Steelers handle FA in any way similar to the Patriots. Again, not a criticism because I'm generally happy with their FA approach.

To expand, the whole debate on here is whether they can pay Bell $14.5M and still sign the big FA. I don't hear people on here saying "Oh no, we can't sign Bell and still pick up a couple mid-level backups."

Right. And the debate is off the rails.

Steelers have never signed big money outside FAs.
Bell's contract in NO WAY prevents the team from signing a free agent safety and/or ILB if they want to.
They can engage in a number of cap freeing moves that ALL NFL teams use each and every season.
The Steelers have always and will always prioritize signing their own guys to big $$ and outside guys to small and medium $$$.

FInally, just because the guy brought in isn't a splashy name signing doesn't mean they aren't talented. Alualu was drafted in the first round. If Green's noggin hadn't imploded he would've likely put up #'s only bested by Gronk for TEs. Farrior won a DPOY award. Ryan Clark's talents enabled Polamalu to freelance on almost every defensive play. Kimo solidified a SB caliber defensive line.

This may not be fair, but it seems like folks are bound and determined to have their emotional animosity towards Bell for being a douche-canoe (which he is) to override any and all logical and fact based reviews of the franchise's decades long patter in free agency. Just because Bell makes you angry, doesn't mean all the facts around the Steelers approach to free agency have changed.

Again, this was a team that was capped out last off-season. Also carried Bell on an almost identical franchise cap hit, and still offered a basically $10 million contract to Hightower. If the Steelers feel that there is a player on the market that can be a critical piece of the puzzle, they are not going to let cap considerations stop them. That is why Omar Khan gets paid.

[DesertSteel]

Right. And the debate is off the rails.

Steelers have never signed big money outside FAs.
Bell's contract in NO WAY prevents the team from signing a free agent safety and/or ILB if they want to.
They can engage in a number of cap freeing moves that ALL NFL teams use each and every season.
The Steelers have always and will always prioritize signing their own guys to big $$ and outside guys to small and medium $$$.

FInally, just because the guy brought in isn't a splashy name signing doesn't mean they aren't talented. Alualu was drafted in the first round. If Green's noggin hadn't imploded he would've likely put up #'s only bested by Gronk for TEs. Farrior won a DPOY award. Ryan Clark's talents enabled Polamalu to freelance on almost every defensive play. Kimo solidified a SB caliber defensive line.

This may not be fair, but it seems like folks are bound and determined to have their emotional animosity towards Bell for being a douche-canoe (which he is) to override any and all logical and fact based reviews of the franchise's decades long patter in free agency. Just because Bell makes you angry, doesn't mean all the facts around the Steelers approach to free agency have changed.

Again, this was a team that was capped out last off-season. Also carried Bell on an almost identical franchise cap hit, and still offered a basically $10 million contract to Hightower. If the Steelers feel that there is a player on the market that can be a critical piece of the puzzle, they are not going to let cap considerations stop them. That is why Omar Khan gets paid.
I'm fine with Bell at the tag price. To me, that's better than a LT deal because I think he's declining. I'm also fine if he's gonna hold out because that's the DB's way of handling himself. Run him into the ground and then cut ties in 2019. In the meantime, keep signing those guys like Alualu. They definitely need an ILB and/or S to supplement what the draft brings.

[Dwinsgames]

bottom line from where I sit .... to hell with Bell .. move on time

highest paid RB in the league is 8.5 million bell was offered 50% more money in a long term deal and said no .... screw him

I would put his services up for sale on draft day to the highest bidder in the way of draft picks / players or a combination of the two and call it a day ...

if I got no takers then I rescind the tag on July 21st ( 2 days before the last day to sign) ( we know he will wait til the last day to keep making his same stupid statement ) by then most teams worth a damn will have spent their cap money and bell can then sit or take what he is offered ....

the take away for Bell , quit being a greedy bitch because at some point it will always bite you in the ass

[Craic]

bottom line from where I sit .... to hell with Bell .. move on time

highest paid RB in the league is 8.5 million bell was offered 50% more money in a long term deal and said no .... screw him

I would put his services up for sale on draft day to the highest bidder in the way of draft picks / players or a combination of the two and call it a day ...

if I got no takers then I rescind the tag on July 21st ( 2 days before the last day to sign) ( we know he will wait til the last day to keep making his same stupid statement ) by then most teams worth a damn will have spent their cap money and bell can then sit or take what he is offered ....

the take away for Bell , quit being a greedy bitch because at some point it will always bite you in the ass

Can't happen. Bell won't sign the tag until September, which means he can't be traded until September since the Steelers don't technically have him on their team until he signs. On top of that, the Rooneys don't treat their players like chattel.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

bottom line from where I sit .... to hell with Bell .. move on time

highest paid RB in the league is 8.5 million bell was offered 50% more money in a long term deal and said no .... screw him

I would put his services up for sale on draft day to the highest bidder in the way of draft picks / players or a combination of the two and call it a day ...

if I got no takers then I rescind the tag on July 21st ( 2 days before the last day to sign) ( we know he will wait til the last day to keep making his same stupid statement ) by then most teams worth a damn will have spent their cap money and bell can then sit or take what he is offered ....

the take away for Bell , quit being a greedy bitch because at some point it will always bite you in the ass Good to see you posting again!

[Steelerchad]

Guys a talent, but is way overplaying his hand. If I'm the Steelers, I tag him and run the tread off him again this year, then let him walk.
Signing him for 5 years and $70+ makes little sense at the RB position. Makes even less sense when your franchise QB is most likely in his last 2-3 years.
I'd prefer a stable of 3 RB's that cost about $10M combined for the long term. Injury protection and flexibility.

[ALLD]

Can't happen. Bell won't sign the tag until September, which means he can't be traded until September since the Steelers don't technically have him on their team until he signs. On top of that, the Rooneys don't treat their players like chattel.

It would be in everyone's interest that if no LT agreement is reached Bell should be traded. He can sign simultaneous deals. The sooner the better.

[DesertSteel]

The question is: what would he garner in a trade? Most will say a 1st, but those same people think we're getting a 2nd for Bryant.

[Shoes]

:crazy:


https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/Pittsburgh-Steelers-LeVeon-Bell-shares-questionable-Snapchat-video-116019360 (https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/Pittsburgh-Steelers-LeVeon-Bell-shares-questionable-Snapchat-video-116019360)

[DesertSteel]

:crazy:


https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/Pittsburgh-Steelers-LeVeon-Bell-shares-questionable-Snapchat-video-116019360 (https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/Pittsburgh-Steelers-LeVeon-Bell-shares-questionable-Snapchat-video-116019360)

So tired of this loser

[j-d-s]

Can we change type of tag? Because I would consider putting the non-exclusive fanchise tag on Bell - I doubt someone would give him a deal which averages 14.5 million per year, and if someone does, two first-rounders are a good deal for a player who'll probably be gone after this year.

I really think that - similar to Kirk Cousins - Bell will definitely be gone after this year. He probably will even increase his outrageous demands (14.5 million on average per year), possibly to the value of the third tag, which would be over 20 million. There is no chance in hell we pay him that for even one season. So no more franchise tag. Transition tag is no option because we would lose a compensatory draft pick that way.

Basically, because Bell will be gone after this year, I would try to get rid of him before this year - either through non-exclusive franchise tag or by trade. We will get way more value for him than next year - which will be only a compensatory draft pick.

[Craic]

:crazy:


https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/Pittsburgh-Steelers-LeVeon-Bell-shares-questionable-Snapchat-video-116019360 (https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/Pittsburgh-Steelers-LeVeon-Bell-shares-questionable-Snapchat-video-116019360)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-X85ruBcRUg0/U7QEXaDTL_I/AAAAAAAACjM/yb0vZHScM_E/s1600/camel.jpg

I'm done.

Trade him for a used puck bag.

[Shoes]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-X85ruBcRUg0/U7QEXaDTL_I/AAAAAAAACjM/yb0vZHScM_E/s1600/camel.jpg

I'm done.

Trade him for a used puck bag.

:lol:

[86WARD]

That link isn’t working...what did he do now?

[steelreserve]

That link isn’t working...what did he do now?

Posted some dumb video of him next to some rapper who was smoking a blunt. Wouldn't be surprised if he got another "random" drug test because of it.

Can you imagine if he failed it, though?

[Shoes]

That link isn’t working...what did he do now?

The link still is working.


https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/Pittsburgh-Steelers-LeVeon-Bell-shares-questionable-Snapchat-video-116019360 (https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/Pittsburgh-Steelers-LeVeon-Bell-shares-questionable-Snapchat-video-116019360)

[86WARD]

The link still is working.


https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/Pittsburgh-Steelers-LeVeon-Bell-shares-questionable-Snapchat-video-116019360 (https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/Pittsburgh-Steelers-LeVeon-Bell-shares-questionable-Snapchat-video-116019360)

Hmmm. Not working for me.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/1fbd44f6c1123a958a693f29c98549cd.jpg

[86WARD]

Posted some dumb video of him next to some rapper who was smoking a blunt. Wouldn't be surprised if he got another "random" drug test because of it.

Can you imagine if he failed it, though?

Good Lord. He and that stupid wannabe rap career...I look at it this way...if he gets jammed up with a drug test, it’s a $14.5M blessing...

[AtlantaDan]

Good Lord. He and that stupid wannabe rap career...I look at it this way...if he gets jammed up with a drug test, it’s a $14.5M blessing...

JuJu is working on Plan B if that happens

971503841551122432
972295440531009538
972364618214514689
971908534525878274

[tube517]

Juju is a stalker fan. LMAO. He is a fun dude. I'd rather see him being goofy and playing around in the offseason than getting in trouble.

[Mojouw]

This whole thing is going to get far more ridiculous before it ends. Latest reports have 3 teams offering Kirk Cousins 90 million FULLY GUARANTEED. That's a game changer for NFL contracts. Wanna guess what Bell's new benchmark will be?

No need to reply with logic and reason -- this scenario has left that realm several contract proposals ago.

[86WARD]

Guess it could be worse:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/e21eada1d57bfc593ff7591d21c29e4b.jpg

[Steel Warrior]

Don't post often but read a lot. You guys know this stuff so help me. Why does Bell get $14.5 mil when we franchised him
if the franchise tag means the average of the top five in that position and the top is Freeman at $8.5 mil? Does it have to
do with his WR skills?

[steelreserve]

Don't post often but read a lot. You guys know this stuff so help me. Why does Bell get $14.5 mil when we franchised him
if the franchise tag means the average of the top five in that position and the top is Freeman at $8.5 mil? Does it have to
do with his WR skills?

I had the same question last year. Going by average salary, the franchise tag for RB last year should've been something like $6.5-$7M. Going by cap hit, it was about $7-$7.5 if I recall. Instead, the tag cost us $12M, which would be the average of the top 1 plus an extra 50 percent. Seems like they did their math wrong, but what do I know.

Then this year's salary is based on 120 percent of last year's incorrect tag number, so at least there's an explanation. Still wondering why it was so far out of their stated guidelines last season to get here, though.

[AtlantaDan]

Argument in Bell's favor that the free agent market is placing higher value on backs with receiving skills as part of the $$$$ being thrown around in free agency

The San Francisco 49ers (http://www.espn.com/nfl/team/_/name/sf/san-francisco-49ers) will sign former Minnesota Vikings (http://www.espn.com/nfl/team/_/name/min/minnesota-vikings) running back Jerick McKinnon (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/16782/jerick-mckinnon) to a four-year, $30 million deal, a source told ESPN's Adam Schefter....

After Dalvin Cook (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/3116593/dalvin-cook) went down with a torn ACL in Week 4, McKinnon became part of one of the best running back tandems in the league alongside Latavius Murray (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/15920/latavius-murray). From Week 5 on, McKinnon averaged 3.9 yards per rush, gaining 544 yards on 140 carries while catching 43 passes for 381 yards.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22758877/jerick-mckinnon-sign-san-francisco-49ers

973906748011634689

Bell's bargaining position on $$$ certainly is not going down after the FA RB signings

[steelreserve]

Bell's bargaining position on $$$ certainly is not going down after the FA RB signings

Well, that's looking like it's someone else's problem next March, cause he sure doesn't want to sign here.

I wonder if he gets a kick out of all the drama and that's part of it too? "Oh yeah, drama about money means I'm a big baller, which means I'm a big rapper," that kind of thing. Who the hell knows what's going on in his head.

[SteelMember]

Still not seeing how an average $7.5 mil per year signing is anywhere near the 16 he's asking. He should have jumped to sign that 14 mil deal last year. Still would have been more than 5 mil more than the 2nd guy on the list.

[DesertSteel]

Well, that's looking like it's someone else's problem next March, cause he sure doesn't want to sign here.

I wonder if he gets a kick out of all the drama and that's part of it too? "Oh yeah, drama about money means I'm a big baller, which means I'm a big rapper," that kind of thing. Who the hell knows what's going on in his head.
I see another weed suspension in his near future.....

[steelreserve]

Still not seeing how an average $7.5 mil per year signing is anywhere near the 16 he's asking. He should have jumped to sign that 14 mil deal last year. Still would have been more than 5 mil more than the 2nd guy on the list.

Yeah, are there any free agent running backs who are likely to sign for more than $7.5M a year? Because I sure can't think of any. If not, I don't see how that affects the market at all. Some dummies overpaid a guy, the Jon Koncak of running backs.

[Mojouw]

Argument in Bell's favor that the free agent market is placing higher value on backs with receiving skills as part of the $$$$ being thrown around in free agency

The San Francisco 49ers (http://www.espn.com/nfl/team/_/name/sf/san-francisco-49ers) will sign former Minnesota Vikings (http://www.espn.com/nfl/team/_/name/min/minnesota-vikings) running back Jerick McKinnon (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/16782/jerick-mckinnon) to a four-year, $30 million deal, a source told ESPN's Adam Schefter....

After Dalvin Cook (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/3116593/dalvin-cook) went down with a torn ACL in Week 4, McKinnon became part of one of the best running back tandems in the league alongside Latavius Murray (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/15920/latavius-murray). From Week 5 on, McKinnon averaged 3.9 yards per rush, gaining 544 yards on 140 carries while catching 43 passes for 381 yards.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22758877/jerick-mckinnon-sign-san-francisco-49ers

973906748011634689

Bell's bargaining position on $$$ certainly is not going down after the FA RB signings


Still not seeing how an average $7.5 mil per year signing is anywhere near the 16 he's asking. He should have jumped to sign that 14 mil deal last year. Still would have been more than 5 mil more than the 2nd guy on the list.

Please don't read this as "Mojouw's totally arguing for signing Bell to a 16 million a year deal." I'm not. BUT...AtlantaDan makes an excellent point - the stupid money being thrown around in FA is strengthening Bell's argument.

Bell put up twice the stats as McKinnon. Plays a ton more snaps - in fact he plays more snaps than just about anyone at RB. If McKinnon is worth 7.5 - Bell's #'s basically justify doubling that. There is 15 million.
I can't find the #'s on Crowell's new contract with the Jets. I also can not find the rumored details of a Duke Johnson extension (another back that puts up receiver #'s like Bell but plays 1/3 to 1/2 the snaps). Those two will set the "floor" for any Bell extension.

The only real question is not whether or not Bell and his agent can make a rationale case for his contract demands, it is whether or not any NFL team should devote low end QB money to a RB? Now an argument can be made that it is better to spend the cash on a guy like Bell than Mike Glennon or Blake Bortles. But QB money is still QB money...

[AtlantaDan]

The only real question is not whether or not Bell and his agent can make a rationale case for his contract demands, it is whether or not any NFL team should devote low end QB money to a RB? Now an argument can be made that it is better to spend the cash on a guy like Bell than Mike Glennon or Blake Bortles. But QB money is still QB money...

Agreed - I would not pay what Bell is demanding given the financial risk that it can end on one play for a RB unlike a QB and how fast a RB can decline - just saying Bell's position on his market value is more defensible now than it was a week ago, which further reduces the highly unlikely possibility of a long term deal being negotiated

[EzraTank]

The Jets are signing Isaiah Crowell. I really wished we would have signed him and let Bell walk. We could use that money to fill a lot of defensive holes and not miss that much between Crowell and Bell.

[AtlantaDan]

The Jets are signing Isaiah Crowell. I really wished we would have signed him and let Bell walk. We could use that money to fill a lot of defensive holes and not miss that much between Crowell and Bell.

Crowell certainly could pick right up on being high maintenance

He does come with some baggage. He was kicked out of the University of Georgia after a firearm arrest in 2012. Then, in 2016 he posted a disturbing anti-police image to Instagram.

https://nypost.com/2018/03/13/jets-plan-to-sign-isaiah-crowell-to-three-year-deal/

[Mojouw]

Crowell certainly could pick right up on being high maintenance

He does come with some baggage. He was kicked out of the University of Georgia after a firearm arrest in 2012. Then, in 2016 he posted a disturbing anti-police image to Instagram.

https://nypost.com/2018/03/13/jets-plan-to-sign-isaiah-crowell-to-three-year-deal/

Plus any world where there isn't a yawning chasm in terms of talent gap between Crowell and Bell is just a fantasy land.

Again, NOT an endorsement of paying Bell a massive contract, but to argue the team wouldn't miss much is simply ludicrous. Swapping the two players would totally revise the Steelers offensive philosophy.

Now all of that may be okay and it may, in fact, be a far better use of cap resources to move on from Bell and apply those dollars elsewhere -- but let's at least acknowledge that Bell is like a 10 at RB and Crowell is a 6 at best.

[DesertSteel]

Plus any world where there isn't a yawning chasm in terms of talent gap between Crowell and Bell is just a fantasy land.

Again, NOT an endorsement of paying Bell a massive contract, but to argue the team wouldn't miss much is simply ludicrous. Swapping the two players would totally revise the Steelers offensive philosophy.

Now all of that may be okay and it may, in fact, be a far better use of cap resources to move on from Bell and apply those dollars elsewhere -- but let's at least acknowledge that Bell is like a 10 at RB and Crowell is a 6 at best.
His talent would be "missed" but mostly from a fantasy football standpoint. That's what the evidence shows: 11-4 without him and the same points scored with or without him. Those are facts.

And no way is Bell (4.0 YPC) a 10 when he has only 3 runs longer than 20 yards last year and the longest being 27.

[Dwinsgames]

first let me say I am completely opposed to anything north of 12 million a year for Any RB .....

but kind of thinking out loud here , I wonder if bell would sign a contract at his number ( whatever that number is 15 -16 mill ) a year with a poison pill in the contract wording that states any suspension for drugs or any other reason completely absolves the team of his future contract obligations and any and all money paid forward in the deal ( bonus's signing or otherwise ) would need to be returned to the team and null and voids any contractual guarantees ....

My best guess is NO he would not sign that deal but I digress

[steelreserve]

first let me say I am completely opposed to anything north of 12 million a year for Any RB .....

but kind of thinking out loud here , I wonder if bell would sign a contract at his number ( whatever that number is 15 -16 mill ) a year with a poison pill in the contract wording that states any suspension for drugs or any other reason completely absolves the team of his future contract obligations and any and all money paid forward in the deal ( bonus's signing or otherwise ) would need to be returned to the team and null and voids any contractual guarantees ....

My best guess is NO he would not sign that deal but I digress

Have you seen how he's been acting? If anything, he'd insist on being paid MORE if he gets busted for smoking weed.

[86WARD]

His talent would be "missed" but mostly from a fantasy football standpoint. That's what the evidence shows: 11-4 without him and the same points scored with or without him. Those are facts.

And no way is Bell (4.0 YPC) a 10 when he has only 3 runs longer than 20 yards last year and the longest being 27.

The drop in YPC isn’t a lack of talent, it’s teams figuring out how to play his stop start style of running and taking advantage of the Steelers blocking schemes. Teams are shifting gaps, overplaying gaps and the offense doesn’t evolve...they stand pat and do what they do (as usual) and the defenses take advantage. Definitely not because he was breaking down...not yet at least.

Where he will be missed most is in the pass game. Endless amount of times that Bell bailed Ben out. You can’t just replace a player like that in one years draft or off a free agent pile. Not saying he’s worth all that money but people think it’s so easy just to let him walk...if you’re gonna let him walk, how are you replacing him? Connor, Fitz, Ridley? I don’t think so...

[Mojouw]

The drop in YPC isn’t a lack of talent, it’s teams figuring out how to play his stop start style of running and taking advantage of the Steelers blocking schemes. Teams are shifting gaps, overplaying gaps and the offense doesn’t evolve...they stand pat and do what they do (as usual) and the defenses take advantage. Definitely not because he was breaking down...not yet at least.

Where he will be missed most is in the pass game. Endless amount of times that Bell bailed Ben out. You can’t just replace a player like that in one years draft or off a free agent pile. Not saying he’s worth all that money but people think it’s so easy just to let him walk...if you’re gonna let him walk, how are you replacing him? Connor, Fitz, Ridley? I don’t think so...

That's kinda what I am getting at.

For better or worse, this is what Bell does:

1. PLays 950+ offensive snaps. Second behind only Ben R.
2. A 1000 yard RB and a 500-600 yard WR with 50-70 catches.

You aren't replacing that with one guy. Or even two guys. If Bell is no longer on the roster, the Steelers would have to change their fundamental approach on offense to a degree. That's fine. But to "replace" Bell (it is a more or shifting of responsibilities) they would need the following:

1. Another RB for 1st and 2nd down to pair with the unknown that is Conner.
2. A passing game back that can also run a bit.
3. A TE or WR to emerge as that possession style safety valve in the pass game. Juju? Vance McD? Draft pick?

None of that mandates that you meet his contract demands. But play this part out in your head for fun and anger --- How much of Bell's requested 15+ would the team have to pay out to acquire FAs to replace him? How many draft picks? What is the real savings at the end of that calculation. It certainly isn't the whole 15 million.

In a similar situation, Miami shed Landry and his tag. That saved $16 million. They then signed Albert Wilson for $8 million per year and Amendola for $6 million per year (rough numbers). So they saved $2 million dollars. I'm sure with guarantees and other things it is a bit better cap situation than the tag and they have cost certainty moving forward. But they also employ a injury prone Amendola and an unproven Wilson instead of the human catch machine known as Jarvis Landry. The situation is eerily similar. Tag seems to dangerously overvalue the player, spread things out so one guy isn't so critical, etc. etc.

[DesertSteel]

The drop in YPC isn’t a lack of talent, it’s teams figuring out how to play his stop start style of running and taking advantage of the Steelers blocking schemes.
That's the equivalent of a drop in talent. He doesn't have the speed to hit the hole fast and get separation from the defense. If a QB is successful at one thing but defenses figure him out after a year or two and he goes downhill, then it's on the player. Same with Bell.

>>>>>>> Steelers record without Bell 11-4......Offense averages SAME number of Points with/without Bell<<<<<<<<<

[hawaiiansteeler]

if you’re gonna let him walk, how are you replacing him? Connor, Fitz, Ridley? I don’t think so...

maybe it's time to stop being hostage to Bell's antics and draft a RB early, there are some very good ones that can be had in the first couple of rounds this year such as Derrius Guice, Ronald Jones II, Kerryon Johnson, Sony Michel, Nick Chubb and Rashaad Penny.

[AtlantaDan]

Shot across the bow by Colbert

The Pittsburgh Steelers (http://www.espn.com/nfl/team/_/name/pit/pittsburgh-steelers) are putting contract negotiations with running back Le'Veon Bell (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/15825/le'veon-bell) on hold while focusing on free agency and the NFL draft....

General manager Kevin Colbert said the team will eventually continue the dialogue with Bell's reps, but there's no update on a deal....

More urgent business needs to get taken care of," Colbert said from the NFL owners meetings in Orlando. "We will reassess where that is. He'll reassess where his interests are as well. I anticipate us continuing that process once we get through the free agency period and maybe even through the draft. The draft can change things on both sides."

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22908180/pittsburgh-steelers-put-leveon-bell-talks-hold-draft-free-agency

[hawaiiansteeler]

Shot across the bow by Colbert

The Pittsburgh Steelers (http://www.espn.com/nfl/team/_/name/pit/pittsburgh-steelers) are putting contract negotiations with running back Le'Veon Bell (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/15825/le'veon-bell) on hold while focusing on free agency and the NFL draft....

General manager Kevin Colbert said the team will eventually continue the dialogue with Bell's reps, but there's no update on a deal....

More urgent business needs to get taken care of," Colbert said from the NFL owners meetings in Orlando. "We will reassess where that is. He'll reassess where his interests are as well. I anticipate us continuing that process once we get through the free agency period and maybe even through the draft. The draft can change things on both sides."

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22908180/pittsburgh-steelers-put-leveon-bell-talks-hold-draft-free-agency


Steelers have made their offer and it's up to Bell to decide whether or not he wants to accept it.

he won't of course so this will drag on and he will sit out all of training camp and report just before the first game.

it's deja vu all over again...

[st33lersguy]

Rescind the tag. Find a RB in FA and draft another. Preferably at least one who can catch the ball out of the backfield

[DesertSteel]

But how can we replace 4 yards a carry and 600 receiving yards????

[Shoes]

But how can we replace 4 yards a carry and 600 receiving yards????

a good TE will do

[DesertSteel]

a good TE will do
Or to make it more apples to apples, who's more valuable to their respective team, Gronk or Bell?

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Or to make it more apples to apples, who's more valuable to their respective team, Gronk or Bell? Pretty much equal in value to both teams. Thing Is Bell at RB and Gronk at TE don't grow on trees! Thinking you can just go out and draft the next Bell and Gronk in whatever round is not using logic

[Craic]

Pretty much equal in value to both teams. Thing Is Bell at RB and Gronk at TE don't grow on trees! Thinking you can just go out and draft the next Bell and Gronk in whatever round is not using logic

No, I'd have to say Gronk over Bell. There have been times in the closing minutes of a game that he's pretty much taken over the game. Bell, for all that he's done, hasn't done that. He's hit a big play at the very end of a game to win it a couple of times, but I can only think of maybe one or two games where he's literally taken the game over and almost single-handedly won it for the team with multiple plays in the closing minutes. Granted, Gronk has Brady throwing to him, but still, it's the fact that he catches the ball and is so reliable in those moments that makes him more valuable to the Pats*

Here's a different way to look at it. Everything else being even (age, length left in the NFL, etc) if we were given the opportunity to pick Gronk up on free-agency, but doing so meant we had to drop Bell, would you pull the trigger or not? I sure would.

[DesertSteel]

I’d say there were a couple playoff games in 2016 that Bell took over. But really no games in 2017. I’d take Gronk too. I don’t think Bell’s 2017 production is all that significant. He had a million touches so don’t bother with the yards argument.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

No, I'd have to say Gronk over Bell. There have been times in the closing minutes of a game that he's pretty much taken over the game. Bell, for all that he's done, hasn't done that. He's hit a big play at the very end of a game to win it a couple of times, but I can only think of maybe one or two games where he's literally taken the game over and almost single-handedly won it for the team with multiple plays in the closing minutes. Granted, Gronk has Brady throwing to him, but still, it's the fact that he catches the ball and is so reliable in those moments that makes him more valuable to the Pats*

Here's a different way to look at it. Everything else being even (age, length left in the NFL, etc) if we were given the opportunity to pick Gronk up on free-agency, but doing so meant we had to drop Bell, would you pull the trigger or not? I sure would. Like I posted Bell and Gronk don't go on trees! Maybe I would have Gronk over Bell but both are hard to replace and mean a lot to each offense. To be naive and think either can be replaced in the draft with no problem is not logical thinking.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Wannabe rapers and wannabe WWE superstars are hard to come by.

[steelreserve]

Steelers have made their offer and it's up to Bell to decide whether or not he wants to accept it.

he won't of course so this will drag on and he will sit out all of training camp and report just before the first game.

it's deja vu all over again...


Hopefully this time we call his bullshit and start fining him for missing preseason. You can dock players a significant amount (up to 25% of the year's pay) but we didn't last year because we were worried about hurting his delicate ego. If there's no long-term contract this time around, we know he's not coming back, so might as well make it in his best interest to show up ready for the one season he's on the team. When you're motivated primarily by money, your principled stand goes out the window in about 5 seconds flat once it's going to start costing you a million dollars a week that you're not gonna get back.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Hopefully this time we call his bullshit and start fining him for missing preseason. You can dock players a significant amount (up to 25% of the year's pay) but we didn't last year because we were worried about hurting his delicate ego. If there's no long-term contract this time around, we know he's not coming back, so might as well make it in his best interest to show up ready for the one season he's on the team. When you're motivated primarily by money, your principled stand goes out the window in about 5 seconds flat once it's going to start costing you a million dollars a week that you're not gonna get back.

I don't think we can fine Bell because he hasn't signed the franchise tag tender so technically he's not under contract.

[86WARD]

Wannabe rapers and wannabe WWE superstars are hard to come by.

Well Bell would be on the correct team to learn how to be a “raper”.

To just look at Bells production and say his yards and his avg can be replaced is looking at only part of the story. Great, his numbers weren’t as good as in the past. Major reason for that is because they consistently ran that shotgun draw play that must’ve failed 11/12 times for a loss of yards. That is shoddy play calling. The other thing is teams started to key in on certain plays and formations, they were able to play the gaps where in the past Bell’s patience and vision was able to get around that, they didn’t know what was coming. Again, shoddy play calling and no ability to adjust blocking schemes or play design.

Then you look at Bell’s ability to bail Ben out and then get a nice gain after it. Not every back is going to be able to do that block, get free, bail out a mobile QB and turn it into nice positive yardage. Bell can also pass protect. He has a very good skill set and no matter what you want to think, it’s not just easily replaced as some wish it would be.

Im not Being rah, rah, Pro-Bell, but come on, you just don’t “draft a guy” and “sign a street free agent” to replace Bell’s skill set. It’s easy to say, but let’s hear the names that are going to replace Bell’s skill set...I thought James Connor was good enough...what happened to the love for Connor? So let’s replace Bell...but with who?? Unless it’s Saquon Barkley, you’re already worse on offense...lol.

[DesertSteel]

Like I posted Bell and Gronk don't go on trees! Maybe I would have Gronk over Bell but both are hard to replace and mean a lot to each offense. To be naive and think either can be replaced in the draft with no problem is not logical thinking.
But a RB's decline is so much more pronounced than a TE... I think that Bell is knocking on that door.

[Rotorhead]

We can replace his yards on the ground easily, and replace is passing yards easily also. So we would need to draft/pickup a guy that can run and block in the back field. I agree he was very useful at bailing Ben out, but MB, AB and Juju can easily fill that roll and we Outlaw has good hands to help with that as well. Losing Bell is not going to break out offense.

[steelreserve]

Im not Being rah, rah, Pro-Bell, but come on, you just don’t “draft a guy” and “sign a street free agent” to replace Bell’s skill set. It’s easy to say, but let’s hear the names that are going to replace Bell’s skill set...I thought James Connor was good enough...what happened to the love for Connor? So let’s replace Bell...but with who?? Unless it’s Saquon Barkley, you’re already worse on offense...lol.

I agree it's not likely you can just snap your fingers and find a replacement. But we kind of have to - he's made it crystal-clear that no matter what amount of money we offer him, he's changing teams next year. For that matter, the whole thing could still go completely sideways THIS year. So it's a vacancy that will need to be dealt with and there's nothing we can do about that.

Just worth mentioning: We are unlikely to find a RB who matches Bell 1:1. But we don't have to. Two players are never exactly the same, and they don't have to be. As long as we find somebody GOOD, that player is going to contribute in a way that helps us. Maybe a bit differently, but that can work just fine.

[Born2Steel]

Bell has been reminiscent of Franco in his playing style and in what he brings to the position. Bettis was something completely different from both. Since we will need to replace Bell next offseason anyway, might as well take a RB this draft to try and build the stable. Nobody is replacing Bell on the field this season in any case, as long as Bell is available to play. Guice doesn't make sense this year to me. Penny or Scarbrough do make sense though.

[Shoes]

Bell has been reminiscent of Franco in his playing style and in what he brings to the position. Bettis was something completely different from both. Since we will need to replace Bell next offseason anyway, might as well take a RB this draft to try and build the stable. Nobody is replacing Bell on the field this season in any case, as long as Bell is available to play. Guice doesn't make sense this year to me. Penny or Scarbrough do make sense though.

I'd be fine with that!

[hawaiiansteeler]

But how can we replace 4 yards a carry and 600 receiving yards????

http://image.nola.com/home/nola-media/width600/img/lsu_impact/photo/derrius-guice-6601e15a7362be08.jpg

[Craic]

Hopefully this time we call his bullshit and start fining him for missing preseason. You can dock players a significant amount (up to 25% of the year's pay) but we didn't last year because we were worried about hurting his delicate ego. If there's no long-term contract this time around, we know he's not coming back, so might as well make it in his best interest to show up ready for the one season he's on the team. When you're motivated primarily by money, your principled stand goes out the window in about 5 seconds flat once it's going to start costing you a million dollars a week that you're not gonna get back.

Can't. The rule you're referring to is a player being fined up to 30k per camp practice and 1/17th of their game check for each missed preseason game. The problem is, that is for contracted players, and until Bell signs the tag, he's not under contract and thus, not obligated to attend anything. Therefore, he cannot be fined. It's one of the bones thrown to the player for being tagged.

[steelreserve]

Can't. The rule you're referring to is a player being fined up to 30k per camp practice and 1/17th of their game check for each missed preseason game. The problem is, that is for contracted players, and until Bell signs the tag, he's not under contract and thus, not obligated to attend anything. Therefore, he cannot be fined. It's one of the bones thrown to the player for being tagged.

Fine, deactivate him until he's ready to play; you can dock players a week's pay if they're inactive for "non-performance" reasons. Make it known ahead of time that he's not getting paid until he's actually prepared. We won't miss him; we basically had no Bell for the first 3-4 games anyway last season because he was unprepared and sucked shit.

[86WARD]

Bell is now saying he wants AB money. Isn’t that less than his tag number?

[Mojouw]

Bell is now saying he wants AB money. Isn’t that less than his tag number?

AB's deal is/was an annual average value of $17 million.

[Shoes]

Bell wants 17m per year! :lol:

[steelreserve]

Bell wants 17m per year! :lol:

And if we offer him that, he wants $18M

[hawaiiansteeler]

Bell wants 17m per year! :lol:

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/giphy-9.gif

[86WARD]

AB's deal is/was an annual average value of $17 million.

I thought AB was at $14M. Guess not...lol.

[hawaiiansteeler]

I thought AB was at $14M. Guess not...lol.

"The Steelers and Antonio Brown have agreed to a contract extension that will make him the highest-paid receiver in the NFL, ESPN's Adam Schefter reports. The deal is for four years and $68 million, which will pay Brown $17 million annually over four years and $18.5 annually for three years."

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/02/27/antonio-brown-pittsburgh-steelers-contract-extension-news

[Born2Steel]

More and more this contract/tag situation is looking like a sign or leave move by the Steelers. Bell hasn't signed and is saying he will skip TC and preseason games again this year if on the tag. Steelers have shopped RB prospects(Guice) showing a commitment to the position regardless of Bell. If Bell has not signed by the draft, I could see a RB drafted and the Steelers rescind the tag on Bell and let him just walk. In contract negotiations, the player's only leverage is sitting out. In this case it will also be the Steeler's leverage.

[Shoes]

More and more this contract/tag situation is looking like a sign or leave move by the Steelers. Bell hasn't signed and is saying he will skip TC and preseason games again this year if on the tag. Steelers have shopped RB prospects(Guice) showing a commitment to the position regardless of Bell. If Bell has not signed by the draft, I could see a RB drafted and the Steelers rescind the tag on Bell and let him just walk. In contract negotiations, the player's only leverage is sitting out. In this case it will also be the Steeler's leverage.


I think you are seeing correctly. Art II isn't going to do business any different then his father, that is you make your best offer and if its refused you move on. I think the Steelers are in the move on phase.

[DesertSteel]

I hope they wait until teams have less cap flexibility and then withdraw the tag.

[GBMelBlount]

"The Steelers and Antonio Brown have agreed to a contract extension that will make him the highest-paid receiver in the NFL, ESPN's Adam Schefter reports. The deal is for four years and $68 million, which will pay Brown $17 million annually over four years and $18.5 annually for three years."

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/02/27/antonio-brown-pittsburgh-steelers-contract-extension-news

I have never seen anyone like Brown.

He is worth it.

What he does day in and day out is amazing.

In contrast, paying 4 ypc Bell more than 7-8 mil / year is simply not worth, especially with the other offensive weapons we have.

Draft a good running back and invest the saved money in another defensive chess piece.

If I am not mistaken we spend more per year on our offense than any other team.

So some of the problems on defense may be due to simple cap math.

[Shoes]

I remember Dan Rooney saying this about another #26. "Things change with time, and players don't understand that when they turn down offers.''

[teegre]

I remember Dan Rooney saying this about another #26. "Things change with time, and players don't understand that when they turn down offers.''

:nod:

As I said elsewhere...


1997 Rod Woodson was not a happy camper.

On draft day, the Steelers drafted Chad Scott AND signed Donnell Woolford.

We could be seeing the same kind of poker hand being played in April...

[Craic]

Fine, deactivate him until he's ready to play; you can dock players a week's pay if they're inactive for "non-performance" reasons. Make it known ahead of time that he's not getting paid until he's actually prepared. We won't miss him; we basically had no Bell for the first 3-4 games anyway last season because he was unprepared and sucked shit.

The problem with that is whenever we do bring him back, there's going to be a 3-4 game ramp up. So, I'd rather have it occur in the first 4 games when other teams are still trying to figure things out. The problem wasn't with Bell's "being ready" to play. Physically, he was absolutely ready. There has never been a problem with Bell's work ethic. The problem is simply getting reps with the first team. Getting into the rhythm that is needed so the line knows what the RB wants and the RB knows how the line is operating. The problem is also getting the mind back to working game speed. Again, none of that can happen off field. So, how long do we keep him out? 4 games? So he's not ready to go until half way through the season? 8 games? So he's not really hitting his stride until December? 10 games? 11?

No, put him in the first play of the first game. Let him get up to speed as quickly as possible, and then Willy Parker him (Run him until the wheels literally fall off—broken fibula if Willy's case).

[DesertSteel]

The problem with that is whenever we do bring him back, there's going to be a 3-4 game ramp up. So, I'd rather have it occur in the first 4 games when other teams are still trying to figure things out. The problem wasn't with Bell's "being ready" to play. Physically, he was absolutely ready. There has never been a problem with Bell's work ethic. The problem is simply getting reps with the first team. Getting into the rhythm that is needed so the line knows what the RB wants and the RB knows how the line is operating. The problem is also getting the mind back to working game speed. Again, none of that can happen off field. So, how long do we keep him out? 4 games? So he's not ready to go until half way through the season? 8 games? So he's not really hitting his stride until December? 10 games? 11?

No, put him in the first play of the first game. Let him get up to speed as quickly as possible, and then Willy Parker him (Run him until the wheels literally fall off—broken fibula if Willy's case).
The question is, is he worth $14M for 12 games? I say no! Draft your RB in R1 or 2. Give the guy the rock in TC and PS and then pull the tag from Bell right before the season starts.

Am I right in my assumption that there's no cap hit for the $14M until he signs the contract?

[teegre]

The question is, is he worth $14M for 12 games? I say no! Draft your RB in R1 or 2. Give the guy the rock in TC and PS and then pull the tag from Bell right before the season starts.

Am I right in my assumption that there's no cap hit for the $14M until he signs the contract?

16 games = $14 million
15 games = $13.125 million
12 games = $10.5 million
6 games = $5.25 million

I mention 6 games, because that is the minimum number of games he has to be signed for, in order to become a free agent in 2019.

But, YES, if the Steelers pull the tag, there is zero cap hit.

[SteelMember]

16 games = $14 million
15 games = $13.125 million
12 games = $10.5 million
6 games = $5.25 million

I mention 6 games, because that is the minimum number of games he has to be signed for, in order to become a free agent in 2019.

But, YES, if the Steelers pull the tag, there is zero cap hit.

But they have to keep that money available in case he does sign at any point... it's not like they can spend it on something else. Not until/unless it's pulled.

I can see this turning into something bad. He finally comes back. First game in... he gets hurt a la Jerome Bettis. May be better to cut ties sooner rather than later. I say draft a RB "somewhere". Earlier would put him on notice as in "we're moving on" regardless of when you make up your mind. :noidea:

[teegre]

But they have to keep that money available in case he does sign at any point... it's not like they can spend it on something else. Not until/unless it's pulled.

I can see this turning into something bad. He finally comes back. First game in... he gets hurt a la Jerome Bettis. May be better to cut ties sooner rather than later. I say draft a RB "somewhere". Earlier would put him on notice as in "we're moving on" regardless of when you make up your mind. :noidea:

Let’s skip over the injury part. Bad moxie. :wink02:

If Bell only plays 6 games/only earns $5.25 million, the extra $9.75 million that was set aside for him will be used for signing bonuses for other players.

For example, let’s say that Tuitt has $30 million left on his contract, but he was only due $6 million this season. Boom!!!... the restructure to pay off and additional $9.75 million.

As in: the money will get used to pay other players (who are already under contract).

[GBMelBlount]

Well he will sign a franchise tag - I am confident about that as well

I assume those individuals also were confident about beating Jacksonville in the playoffs

The opposing side had something to say about that as well

The Steelers thought they had a deal with Bell's agent last summer and Bell blew it up - having been burned before being confident a deal can get done seems overly optimistic

Since IMO Bell is worth less now than he was in 2017 (another year of wear and tear) if the Steelers were not lowballing Bell last summer it makes no sense to raise their offer on a multi year deal unless it is the same or less real $$$ and the Steelers are hoping Bell does not figure that out


Exactly.

We have THE most expensive offense in the NFL and one of the least funded defenses.

https://sportsnaut.com/2017/06/10-most-expensive-nfl-offenses/

Please get an average running back who will get 3.9 ypc.

Spread the few hundred less yards he gets receiving across one of the best receiving corps in the nfl.

Spend the $10 mil saved per year on defense.

[Mojouw]

Exactly.

We have THE most expensive offense in the NFL and one of the least funded defenses.

https://sportsnaut.com/2017/06/10-most-expensive-nfl-offenses/

Please get an average running back who will get 3.9 ypc.

Spread the few hundred less yards he gets receiving across one of the best receiving corps in the nfl.

Spend the $10 mil saved per year on defense.

It isn't one of the lowest budgeted defense in the league -- http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/defense/ -- it is right in the middle and roughly 10 million dollars closer to the top than the bottom.

It is a pricey offense -- http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/offense/-- but interestingly it is only $13 million above the exact middle point of the league. So basically right in line with ANY franchise that actually has to pay their starting QB that $20+ million per year contract.

Numbers from that article are over 12 months out of date and do not reflect the increased spending of multiple teams around the league.

[GBMelBlount]

It isn't one of the lowest budgeted defense in the league -- http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/defense/ -- it is right in the middle and roughly 10 million dollars closer to the top than the bottom.

It is a pricey offense -- http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/offense/-- but interestingly it is only $13 million above the exact middle point of the league. So basically right in line with ANY franchise that actually has to pay their starting QB that $20+ million per year contract.

Numbers from that article are over 12 months out of date and do not reflect the increased spending of multiple teams around the league.

Thanks Mojo.

I still want that $10 mil on the defense. :wink02:

[Mojouw]

Thanks Mojo.

I still want that $10 mil on the defense. :wink02:

I wouldn't mind -- if they had someone worthwhile to spend it on. I think this is my problem with all the "Cap space" debates each off-season. And to be clear, it is from all NFL talking sources, not just here.

But say that the Steelers got Bell to sign an extension that was at $10 million or under - so like Lesean McCoy's contract or something.

Other than extending existing players -- where on defense would that money go to really "fix" a problem?

They signed the "best" regarded free agent safety on the market. They passed on the "name" guys at ILB. But I do not think that was for money purposes. I do not think there is an 8 million dollar gap between Bostic and say Demario Davis or Avery Williamson. In my opinion, the Steelers were savvy to pass on those guys! The ONLY LB that may have really impacted the defense in a big $$$ way was Bradham and he never really looked beyond resigning with the SB champs.

All the moves on defense keep getting billed as "cap clearing" and sure that did happen -- but none of those guys were worth their contracts anyways. I figure it was more "talent clearing" than anything else.

The most impactful defensive free agents were at CB and DL. Oddly enough too positions I think the Steelers are fairly satisfied with right now. Are they gonna sit Tuitt or Heyward to play Sheldon Richardson, Wilkerson, or Suh? I mean there is no way that Trumaine Johnson would make any roster worse -- but he doesn't really fix what is wrong with the defense.

Honey Badger? I mean they certainly proved me wrong by going with Burnett as a box safety type. But, honestly, I would rather have Burnett than Mathieu.

I'm rambling now...but I just don't see a FA signing that a "cash strapped" Steelers team had to pass on that would have really been a significant improvement on what they were able to do.

[DesertSteel]

16 games = $14 million
15 games = $13.125 million
12 games = $10.5 million
6 games = $5.25 million

I mention 6 games, because that is the minimum number of games he has to be signed for, in order to become a free agent in 2019.

But, YES, if the Steelers pull the tag, there is zero cap hit.
My point on the money is if he plays like crap for 3-4 games to get up to speed, then we are essentially paying him $14M for 13 games.

My Question on the cap is during the period before its signed, not after its pulled. I.e. right now, is the $14M counting against our cap since he hasn’t signed?

[hawaiiansteeler]

My point on the money is if he plays like crap for 3-4 games to get up to speed, then we are essentially paying him $14M for 13 games.

My Question on the cap is during the period before its signed, not after its pulled. I.e. right now, is the $14M counting against our cap since he hasn’t signed?

yes, I believe so since we placed the franchise tag on him.

[Craic]

My point on the money is if he plays like crap for 3-4 games to get up to speed, then we are essentially paying him $14M for 13 games.

My Question on the cap is during the period before its signed, not after its pulled. I.e. right now, is the $14M counting against our cap since he hasn’t signed?

Yes and no. First, he's still eating up carries, and does so with unbelievable ball security. He only lost the ball twice last year with all those carries he had. And, in the passing game, he was a top 10 wide receiver in catches, and fumbled the ball once. That brings up a second point. We're not just getting a running back. We're getting a top ten (statistical) WR as well.

So, unless we have a RB that can step in and fill his shoes as a RB (and no, it's not just about 3.9 ypc, it's about turning -2 yards into +2 yards when the line seriously regressed during the first half of the season) and as a WR, then we need to seriously think twice before flippantly wishing the tag gets pulled. That's exactly why the Rooney's won't do it. They know the value they have in Bell, and they think a Le'Veon Bell that is on his game for 13 games and getting up to speed in the first 3 games is worth every cent of the tag.

[DesertSteel]

Yes and no. First, he's still eating up carries, and does so with unbelievable ball security. He only lost the ball twice last year with all those carries he had. And, in the passing game, he was a top 10 wide receiver in catches, and fumbled the ball once. That brings up a second point. We're not just getting a running back. We're getting a top ten (statistical) WR as well.

So, unless we have a RB that can step in and fill his shoes as a RB (and no, it's not just about 3.9 ypc, it's about turning -2 yards into +2 yards when the line seriously regressed during the first half of the season) and as a WR, then we need to seriously think twice before flippantly wishing the tag gets pulled. That's exactly why the Rooney's won't do it. They know the value they have in Bell, and they think a Le'Veon Bell that is on his game for 13 games and getting up to speed in the first 3 games is worth every cent of the tag.
A few things:

A. Bell is a good back.
B. He did not play like a $12-14M back in the first quarter of the season. Lots of guys making $800K don't fumble.
C. Bell is NOT statistically a top 10 receiver. We might as well say that Matt Forte is the greatest WR of all time. Bell averages 532 receiving yards a year, and last year was down to 7.7 YPR.
D. Back to A. --- Bell is a good back, but his poop stinks too (although he thinks it doesn't)

[Dwinsgames]

Yes and no. First, he's still eating up carries, and does so with unbelievable ball security. He only lost the ball twice last year with all those carries he had. And, in the passing game, he was a top 10 wide receiver in catches, and fumbled the ball once. That brings up a second point. We're not just getting a running back. We're getting a top ten (statistical) WR as well.

So, unless we have a RB that can step in and fill his shoes as a RB (and no, it's not just about 3.9 ypc, it's about turning -2 yards into +2 yards when the line seriously regressed during the first half of the season) and as a WR, then we need to seriously think twice before flippantly wishing the tag gets pulled. That's exactly why the Rooney's won't do it. They know the value they have in Bell, and they think a Le'Veon Bell that is on his game for 13 games and getting up to speed in the first 3 games is worth every cent of the tag.

I believe the WR premise is a very very skewed one ... top 10 WR's do not face linebackers and safety's in coverage week after week , play after play they face the oppositions best Corners for the most part ...

so to try and compare Bell vs a WR is not giving anyone any results that can be even considered close to accurate depictions ....

[Craic]

A few things:

A. Bell is a good back.
B. He did not play like a $12-14M back in the first quarter of the season. Lots of guys making $800K don't fumble.
C. Bell is NOT statistically a top 10 receiver. We might as well say that Matt Forte is the greatest WR of all time. Bell averages 532 receiving yards a year, and last year was down to 7.7 YPR.
D. Back to A. --- Bell is a good back, but his poop stinks too (although he thinks it doesn't)
Except, he IS a top ten wr in catches, which is all I said. As for fumbles, no, there's not that many that touch the ball as much as he does without giving it up. I agree he's not worth what he thinks he's worth. I also think his contributions are being seriously downplayed because people are pissed at him.

[teegre]

I also think his contributions are being seriously downplayed because people are pissed at him.

Amen to that!!! :nod:

NFL All-Time yards-from-scrimmage per game average leaders:
1. Le’Veon Bell 128.5
2. Jim Brown 125.5
3. Billy Sims 119.6
4. Barry Sanders 118.9
5. Terrell Davis 113.9

Bell’s yards-from-scrimmage per game average for 2017: 129.7

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Bell is beneficial to Ben's career with his blocking and pass catching. Again not easy to replace!

[Craic]

Amen to that!!! :nod:

NFL All-Time yards-from-scrimmage per game average leaders:
1. Le’Veon Bell 128.5
2. Jim Brown 125.5
3. Billy Sims 119.6
4. Barry Sanders 118.9
5. Terrell Davis 113.9

Bell’s yards-from-scrimmage per game average for 2017: 129.7

Huh, that's a very interesting statistic. Didn't realize he actually did that well this year, beating his career average.


Bell is beneficial to Ben's career with his blocking and pass catching. Again not easy to replace!

Again, very true. And that's something else to add. His blocking plus pass-catching plus running = not easily replaced.
-------------

All of that said, personally, I'm finished with him. I don't care if he signs or not. I just realize that if he doesn't, we're losing someone who has gained us a lot of yards from scrimmage.

[Mach1]

Me at this point....

https://www.yourtango.com/sites/default/files/styles/body_image_default/public/image_list/16%20bye%20felicia.jpg?itok=z1KcS6U7

[Mojouw]

From any player's perspective it is all about them.

James Harrison left the first time over money.

Troy retired about money.

Ward held out over money.

AB and Ben have never taken "home town" discounts - but instead maximized their earnings.

Bell is an ass and wildly misunderstands his social media presentation, but to pretend he is somehow any different than 90% or more of the NFL is a bit unfair.

Brady has repeatedly taken a bit of a discount, but I really struggle to think of other "star" players that took less money to help their teams. I can think of players that got strong-armed into it...

...remember this is a league where Joe Flacco took all the cap room and hampered his team's ability to sign other offensive players. Peyton Manning likely has less SB trophies than he could have by insisting on constantly being paid top $$$ and having it be difficult for the Colts to add to their defense.

[Dwinsgames]

From any player's perspective it is all about them.

James Harrison left the first time over money.

Troy retired about money.

Ward held out over money.

AB and Ben have never taken "home town" discounts - but instead maximized their earnings.

Bell is an ass and wildly misunderstands his social media presentation, but to pretend he is somehow any different than 90% or more of the NFL is a bit unfair.

Brady has repeatedly taken a bit of a discount, but I really struggle to think of other "star" players that took less money to help their teams. I can think of players that got strong-armed into it...

...remember this is a league where Joe Flacco took all the cap room and hampered his team's ability to sign other offensive players. Peyton Manning likely has less SB trophies than he could have by insisting on constantly being paid top $$$ and having it be difficult for the Colts to add to their defense.

you lost me on the bold .... none of the people listed demanded double the next highest paid guy and none of them ever turned down highest paid player at their pos $$'s

[Mojouw]

you lost me on the bold .... none of the people listed demanded double the next highest paid guy and none of them ever turned down highest paid player at their pos $$'s

As I have repeatedly said, I no longer agree with Bell's valuation and contractual demands. But to pretend that other players in the NFL do not prioritize themselves over everything else (until you ring chase on your 3rd or later contract) and are not about the $$$ first, second, and third is more than a bit of an overstatement.

I am not attempting to take Bell's side in this nor am I attempting to come down on the Leveon Bell is easily replaceable, not worth a nickel over 8 million per and essentially an evil person.

Like everything in life, the truth is somewhere in the middle and I find that the reactions about Bell get more and more extreme each passing day/week. They are quickly reaching the point where the emotional backlash against Bell's statements and actions is causing some to seriously under estimate his value and contributions on the football field from 2014-2017.

[Dwinsgames]

As I have repeatedly said, I no longer agree with Bell's valuation and contractual demands. But to pretend that other players in the NFL do not prioritize themselves over everything else (until you ring chase on your 3rd or later contract) and are not about the $$$ first, second, and third is more than a bit of an overstatement.

I am not attempting to take Bell's side in this nor am I attempting to come down on the Leveon Bell is easily replaceable, not worth a nickel over 8 million per and essentially an evil person.

Like everything in life, the truth is somewhere in the middle and I find that the reactions about Bell get more and more extreme each passing day/week. They are quickly reaching the point where the emotional backlash against Bell's statements and actions is causing some to seriously under estimate his value and contributions on the football field from 2014-2017.

I know you have said many times you do not agree with his valuation but honestly as much as you say you are not defending it still looks like you are if for no other reason than you continue to beat this drum ...

No I am not taking a shot at you , we have been friends far to long for that to happen over a guy neither of us will ever rub elbows with .

just explaining how it look from this side of the fence ..

I am guilty of being more and more down on him with the passing weeks and days if for no other reason he keeps upping his demands and saying stupid shit , the more he does that the less interest I have in him representing the team ..

not that the powers that be care what I think but they do care what the over all temperature of the fanbase is on someone they are considering investing so much in and seemingly the only thing heating up in the Lev Bell market fanbase wise if the tempers of the fans ( I get it )


cheers bro

[Mojouw]

I know you have said many times you do not agree with his valuation but honestly as much as you say you are not defending it still looks like you are if for no other reason than you continue to beat this drum ...

No I am not taking a shot at you , we have been friends far to long for that to happen over a guy neither of us will ever rub elbows with .

just explaining how it look from this side of the fence ..

I am guilty of being more and more down on him with the passing weeks and days if for no other reason he keeps upping his demands and saying stupid shit , the more he does that the less interest I have in him representing the team ..

not that the powers that be care what I think but they do care what the over all temperature of the fanbase is on someone they are considering investing so much in and seemingly the only thing heating up in the Lev Bell market fanbase wise if the tempers of the fans ( I get it )


cheers bro

I agree with all that! :drink:

Mostly I like arguing on the internet and taking the contrary position just to play out the logic on both sides of an issue.

I suspect we will get a pretty dramatic statement on how the Franchise feels in about 3 weeks.

[DesertSteel]

The question at this stage is who has the most leverage (and I mean if both sides were willing to hit low)? In other words, what's the worst either side could do to the other and which of the two is more detrimental to the other?

[43Hitman]

The question at this stage is who has the most leverage (and I mean if both sides were willing to hit low)? In other words, what's the worst either side could do to the other and which of the two is more detrimental to the other?

I would have to say that the Steelers hold all the leverage. Isn't that what the Tag is for? So teams can have a bit of leverage while dealing with big contracts?

[AtlantaDan]

:nod:

As I said elsewhere...

1997 Rod Woodson was not a happy camper.

On draft day, the Steelers drafted Chad Scott AND signed Donnell Woolford.

We could be seeing the same kind of poker hand being played in April...

Hopefully does not end up like the Woolford signing

If signing Donnell Woolford was a kind of poker hand it was the kind where you push all your chips into the center of the table when you are holding a pair of twos

In the running for worst Steelers free agency signing ever - Cowher ended up moving Carnell Lake to CB in 1997 after watching Woolford butcher the job

[Dwinsgames]

Hopefully does not end up like the Woolford signing

If signing Donnell Woolford was a kind of poker hand it was the kind where you push all your chips into the center of the table when you are holding a pair of twos

In the running for worst Steelers free agency signing ever - Cowher ended up moving Carnell Lake to CB in 1997 after watching Woolford butcher the job


Duce :couch:

[hawaiiansteeler]

They are quickly reaching the point where the emotional backlash against Bell's statements and actions is causing some to seriously under estimate his value and contributions on the football field from 2014-2017.

actually, that's exactly what worries me. Bell has had a lot of touches in those years and the shelf life of a RB isn't that long. I'm very hesitant to give Bell the kind of long-term contract he's looking for based on past contributions when he may soon be showing the wear and tear all those touches are going to inevitably start to show.

[86WARD]

Duce :couch:

Duce was one of the better sideline guys this team has ever seen. Worst is still Sean Mahan...lol

[Dwinsgames]

Duce was one of the better sideline guys this team has ever seen. Worst is still Sean Mahan...lol

Yeah he could have got endorsements for those Gray sweat pants

[Craic]

Duce was one of the better sideline guys this team has ever seen. Worst is still Sean Mahan...lol

I always love how Mahan gets brought up but Justin Hartwig gets a pass. According to NFL.com Hartwig was less valuable than Mahan his first year with the team. His second year, he rated about the same as Mahan. They both were jokes.

Deuce Staley was an unfortunate issue. He was tearing up the league his first 10 games until he tore up his leg. Had he finished the season, he would have had 1328 yards (projection), which would have put him right between Clinton Portis and LaDainian Tomlinson. Not bad.

[teegre]

I always love how Mahan gets brought up but Justin Hartwig gets a pass. According to NFL.com Hartwig was less valuable than Mahan his first year with the team. His second year, he rated about the same as Mahan. They both were jokes.

Deuce Staley was an unfortunate issue. He was tearing up the league his first 10 games until he tore up his leg. Had he finished the season, he would have had 1328 yards (projection), which would have put him right between Clinton Portis and LaDainian Tomlinson. Not bad.

In 2005, in my fantasy football league, I traded my bro-in-law Duce Staley for Steve Smith, Sr.

I won that year, basically, due to that trade.

[43Hitman]

We just re-signed Ridley to a one year deal.

[DesertSteel]

We just re-signed Ridley to a one year deal.
Now we can pull the tag from Bell!!!

[/sarcasm] <---- for those who can't figure that out

[43Hitman]

Now we can pull the tag from Bell!!!

[/sarcasm] <---- for those no can't figure that out

:lol: You know it's coming

[Born2Steel]

Now we can pull the tag from Bell!!!

[/sarcasm] <---- for those who can't figure that out

He needs to sign it first. Then we pull it.

[Craic]

He needs to sign it first. Then we pull it.
Does he? That's an interesting question. If we tag him, can screw over the Steelers by not signing and thus, assuring it doesn't get pulled? I wonder.