Moats: Steelers completely changed what they ask of outside linebackers

[tube517]

https://www.dkpittsburghsports.com/2018/02/17/moats-said-steelers-completely-changed-ask-outside-linebackers/



On the OLB position in the Steelers defense:




The sacks saw a huge leap, but they didn’t come from the typical source. According to Arthur Moats, that’s probably not going to change anytime soon. In his third season as the team’s defensive coordinator, Keith Butler completely changed what is being asked of the team’s outside linebackers.

“Absolutely. It definitely has changed,” Moats told me Saturday at the Pittsburgh International Auto Show inside the David L. Lawrence Convention Center. “I feel like my first year with (Dick) LeBeau, it was getting to that point where we were dropping more, but it wasn’t all the way to where it is now. Now, we are legit, like, we cover.”



“I don’t want to say it’s over, but you do have to be more efficient,” he said. “When you rush 80 or 90 percent of the game, you can have bad rushes. You can have some rushes where that wasn’t particularly your best rush. But that’s OK because you know you’re going to get another three, four or five on that same drive. With us, you might only get two rushes in a series of eight plays. You had better make sure they are top-notch and hope it’s not play-action.

“We are hybrids. That’s what I like to call us. As a linebacker, your job just isn’t to rush the passer. Your job is to cover, as well. … When you talk about Von Miller, Khalil Mack, those guys aren’t linebackers. Those guys are d-ends. They rush 90 percent of the time. So when you see their sack numbers, that is a different comparison to what we’re doing. When you look at T.J., when you look at Bud and see how much they drop compared to the guys who are getting 10 sacks, it’s night and day.”

On James Harrison:




At the Super Bowl, where Harrison and the Patriots lost to Philadelphia, he told DKPittsburghSports.com he understood some of his former teammates lashing out at him because they were upset.

Moats said that was part of their conversation.

“I had no issue with you going to New England. You were getting a job, cool. It was just the way you went about doing it. That was my biggest thing,” Moats said of what he told Harrison. “A lot of guys, that was their issue. And as he said to (you), guys were hurt. That’s a guy you viewed as a big brother in the locker room, somebody like that. For you to go through the whole season on this tirade and when you get released, we’re the bad guys, we’re the ones who caused this, that wasn’t cool. That’s what a lot of guys had issues with.”

But it’s all good now considered what transpired, at least for Moats. As he told me, seeing Harrison win a Super Bowl with the Patriots would have only rubbed salt in the wound. Given that didn’t happen, well …

“For me, we were able to hash our issues out and since he lost the Super Bowl, no harm, no foul,” Moats said with a laugh. “We’re all good.”

Moats has been the Charlie Batch of this defense. Decent backup OLB and class guy. Wish him well wherever he goes.

[BlackAndGold]

Moats is one of the best locker room guys. Won't be shocked if he is brought back close to the vet min.

[FrancoLambert]

Backup talent, Pro-bowl character.

[86WARD]

Exactly why Harrison and his style didn’t fit in with the Steelers.

[Craic]

Exactly why Harrison and his style didn’t fit in with the Steelers.

Exactly. I mean, I get why people want to bring him in to rush off the edge. But when it doesn't fit the overall scheme anymore . . . I do wonder what would have happened if we moved to a 4-3 and let Harrison take the DE position.

[pczach]

Exactly why Harrison and his style didn’t fit in with the Steelers.


Bingo!

Many of us have been trying to explain that to others here, but that's it in a nutshell.

[Steeldude]

As a linebacker, your job just isn’t to rush the passer. Your job is to cover, as well.

As it always has been.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Bingo!

Many of us have been trying to explain that to others here, but that's it in a nutshell. Yep James is horrible jumping into coverage accept for the 100 yard int in the Superbowl.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Not to mention Butlers defense was God awful getting any pressure on Bortles! I don't care where the pass rush comes from. Please show signs you have one!

[Steeldude]

Exactly why Harrison and his style didn’t fit in with the Steelers.

Yet Harrison could cover, set the edge and rush the passer. I am still trying to figure out how Harrison, rated the 9th best OLB in coverage in 2016 by PFF, was labeled to be totally incapable of playing coverage a year later.

If the style is just to cover then they need to acquire players around 225lbs or so to play OLB. As of now they don't have an OLB on the team that is anything more than average at best when it comes to pressuring the passer. It would have been nice to have an OLB in the playoffs who could generate pressure.

[Born2Steel]

Yet Harrison could cover, set the edge and rush the passer. I am still trying to figure out how Harrison, rated the 9th best OLB in coverage in 2016 by PFF, was labeled to be totally incapable of playing coverage a year later.

If the style is just to cover then they need to acquire players around 225lbs or so to play OLB. As of now they don't have an OLB on the team that is anything more than average at best when it comes to pressuring the passer. It would have been nice to have an OLB in the playoffs who could generate pressure.

You're not wrong, but as Moates said in the article, it's in the middle of transition. It's not finished yet.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Exactly. I mean, I get why people want to bring him in to rush off the edge. But when it doesn't fit the overall scheme anymore . . . I do wonder what would have happened if we moved to a 4-3 and let Harrison take the DE position.

This is basically what I've been thinking. Why not switch to a 4-3 if you've got your OLB dropping into coverage so often?

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Yet Harrison could cover, set the edge and rush the passer. I am still trying to figure out how Harrison, rated the 9th best OLB in coverage in 2016 by PFF, was labeled to be totally incapable of playing coverage a year later.

If the style is just to cover then they need to acquire players around 225lbs or so to play OLB. As of now they don't have an OLB on the team that is anything more than average at best when it comes to pressuring the passer. It would have been nice to have an OLB in the playoffs who could generate pressure. You sir are vindicated and general public now knows releasing James was stupid. Amazing how dumb ass Butler and Tomlin run a defense!

[Mojouw]

Did you watch the SB? Like really watch it? James Harrison got worked, except for 3 pass rushes. I think he was on the field for 50-60 snaps and he and all the Pats LBs got their asses handed to them.

At least two of Clement's long runs and one of Blount's were on Harrison' side where he got caught in space and blocked. One or two of the wheel routes that the Eagles popped to the RBs were to Harrison's side where he was left grabbing air. I do not know the coverages, but Ertz just ate up the entire Pats LB corps in crucial game situations.

Can Harrison still rush the passer? Sure. Can he set the edge in runs around the line of scrimmage? Of course, dude will be able to do that into his 70s.

I mean in one of the other 97 threads about this issue, we all broke down the stats. The running #'s were basically a wash compared between Dupree, Harrison, and Watt and the Steelers were FAR better covering TEs this year. The sacks were down from the OLB position, but they were up across the board.

What Moats is basically saying is that the Steelers no longer want their OLBs to play like James Harrison and want them to play like TJ Watt. Why is this such a hard concept to understand? They may be wrong and foolish, but I fail to see why it is so hard to understand the premise of Harrison's demise with the Steelers?

[Mojouw]

This is basically what I've been thinking. Why not switch to a 4-3 if you've got your OLB dropping into coverage so often?

MLB would be an even bigger issue. The OLBs are dropping into coverage alot for 3-4 but no as much as a 4-3 (no Derrick Brooks style stuff where a LB leads in INTS). They have a Sapp style DT (Hargrave) but lack his Simeon Rice style running mate. Not to mention a Booger McFarland to do the dirty work (like I was gonna bring up the Bucs and not mention a dude named "Booger".

Actually, the could likely pull it off except for the total lack of a MLB to make it all work...

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Did you watch the SB? Like really watch it? James Harrison got worked, except for 3 pass rushes. I think he was on the field for 50-60 snaps and he and all the Pats LBs got their asses handed to them.

At least two of Clement's long runs and one of Blount's were on Harrison' side where he got caught in space and blocked. One or two of the wheel routes that the Eagles popped to the RBs were to Harrison's side where he was left grabbing air. I do not know the coverages, but Ertz just ate up the entire Pats LB corps in crucial game situations.

Can Harrison still rush the passer? Sure. Can he set the edge in runs around the line of scrimmage? Of course, dude will be able to do that into his 70s.

I mean in one of the other 97 threads about this issue, we all broke down the stats. The running #'s were basically a wash compared between Dupree, Harrison, and Watt and the Steelers were FAR better covering TEs this year. The sacks were down from the OLB position, but they were up across the board.

What Moats is basically saying is that the Steelers no longer want their OLBs to play like James Harrison and want them to play like TJ Watt. Why is this such a hard concept to understand? They may be wrong and foolish, but I fail to see why it is so hard to understand the premise of Harrison's demise with the Steelers? No I didn't really watch the SB when my team wasn't in it. Made wings ,drank beer and rooted against the Pats like every American.

[Mojouw]

No I didn't really watch the SB when my team wasn't in it. Made wings ,drank beer and rooted against the Pats like every American.

Well then you missed Harrison looking over-matched as an every down LB.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Well then you missed Harrison looking over-matched as an every down LB. Probably did miss it and again was just enjoying it. Point is Steelers could have used him at least against Jax and think would made somewhat of a difference. If anything still is a great run stopper which this defense lacks.

[Mojouw]

Probably did miss it and again was just enjoying it. Point is Steelers could have used him at least against Jax and think would made somewhat of a difference. If anything still is a great run stopper which this defense lacks.

The 155 yards rushing on 16 carries the Eagles had in the SB says there wasn't much run stopping going on.

In the AFC Championship Game and the Super Bowl - James Harrison had 4 tackles, 1 assist, zero sacks, two QB hits (this # is based on my memory so it may be totally wrong!), and was part of a LB unit that gave up 258 yards rushing and 2 TDs in the two games and 190 yards receiving and 3 TDs to backs and TEs (with 167 of that coming in the SB).

How are we still talking about this like some version of DPOY James Harrison is suiting up?

[86WARD]

No doubt Harrison could’ve helped the Steelers in certain situations. Overall though, his skills have diminished...and maybe they did drop off the planet in one season...year after year we see that happen to NFL players. A perfect example of his lack of coverage skills was a screen pass that he recognized, pulled off his rush and just physically, couldn’t make the play. He did everything else correct, he just didn’t have the skill to get it done.

I’m not one who is saying he doesn’t have gas left in the tank, he just doesn’t have the ability to do what the Steelers are asking the OLBs to do. There was a role in Pittsburgh for him...he just chose not to accept it.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

The 155 yards rushing on 16 carries the Eagles had in the SB says there wasn't much run stopping going on.

In the AFC Championship Game and the Super Bowl - James Harrison had 4 tackles, 1 assist, zero sacks, two QB hits (this # is based on my memory so it may be totally wrong!), and was part of a LB unit that gave up 258 yards rushing and 2 TDs in the two games and 190 yards receiving and 3 TDs to backs and TEs (with 167 of that coming in the SB).

How are we still talking about this like some version of DPOY James Harrison is suiting up? From what I saw there was no defense at all from either team. James four tackles is better then Dupree's one dong tackle per game.

[Mojouw]

No doubt Harrison could’ve helped the Steelers in certain situations. Overall though, his skills have diminished...and maybe they did drop off the planet in one season...year after year we see that happen to NFL players. A perfect example of his lack of coverage skills was a screen pass that he recognized, pulled off his rush and just physically, couldn’t make the play. He did everything else correct, he just didn’t have the skill to get it done.

I’m not one who is saying he doesn’t have gas left in the tank, he just doesn’t have the ability to do what the Steelers are asking the OLBs to do. There was a role in Pittsburgh for him...he just chose not to accept it.

That's all I'm trying to say.

[SteelerFanInStl]

MLB would be an even bigger issue. The OLBs are dropping into coverage alot for 3-4 but no as much as a 4-3 (no Derrick Brooks style stuff where a LB leads in INTS). They have a Sapp style DT (Hargrave) but lack his Simeon Rice style running mate. Not to mention a Booger McFarland to do the dirty work (like I was gonna bring up the Bucs and not mention a dude named "Booger".

Actually, the could likely pull it off except for the total lack of a MLB to make it all work...

We already need to draft an ILB so drafting someone for a 4-3 wouldn't be any different. Stick AluAlu in there with Hargrave at DT and you've got a good start. The defense has already been changed so that it's the DL that's rushing the QB most of the time any way. Might as well go ahead and make the switch. Dupree would need to switch to DE. I can't see him as a 4-3 OLB. Need faster, smaller, better coverage guys.

[Steeldude]

Did you watch the SB? Like really watch it? James Harrison got worked, except for 3 pass rushes. I think he was on the field for 50-60 snaps and he and all the Pats LBs got their asses handed to them.

At least two of Clement's long runs and one of Blount's were on Harrison' side where he got caught in space and blocked. One or two of the wheel routes that the Eagles popped to the RBs were to Harrison's side where he was left grabbing air. I do not know the coverages, but Ertz just ate up the entire Pats LB corps in crucial game situations.

Can Harrison still rush the passer? Sure. Can he set the edge in runs around the line of scrimmage? Of course, dude will be able to do that into his 70s.

I mean in one of the other 97 threads about this issue, we all broke down the stats. The running #'s were basically a wash compared between Dupree, Harrison, and Watt and the Steelers were FAR better covering TEs this year. The sacks were down from the OLB position, but they were up across the board.

What Moats is basically saying is that the Steelers no longer want their OLBs to play like James Harrison and want them to play like TJ Watt. Why is this such a hard concept to understand? They may be wrong and foolish, but I fail to see why it is so hard to understand the premise of Harrison's demise with the Steelers?

Then don't expect the OLBs to be able to get to the QB. That hurt the Steelers in the playoffs.

Didn't Harrison have 7 pressures? Not bad for a 40 year old backup who wasn't allowed to practice most of the season or play anything more than 40 snaps. Now if only Dupree could be half as good. Can Dupree cover? I have never seen him make a play in coverage.

I say get rid of all the oversized LBs and replace them with ones around 225. They don't need to get to the QB. Just rely on coverage sacks and stunts like this past season. If coverage is the goal.

This defense is most likely going to be the same next year. The secondary is horrible. Haden is the only one who is good. Watt is the only promising LB now that Shazier is out. Thankfully the D-line is strong.

[Mojouw]

Then don't expect the OLBs to be able to get to the QB. That hurt the Steelers in the playoffs.

Didn't Harrison have 7 pressures? Not bad for a 40 year old backup who wasn't allowed to practice most of the season or play anything more than 40 snaps. Now if only Dupree could be half as good. Can Dupree cover? I have never seen him make a play in coverage.

I say get rid of all the oversized LBs and replace them with ones around 225. They don't need to get to the QB. Just rely on coverage sacks and stunts like this past season. If coverage is the goal.

This defense is most likely going to be the same next year. The secondary is horrible. Haden is the only one who is good. Watt is the only promising LB now that Shazier is out. Thankfully the D-line is strong.

While you have taken it to an extreme, philosophically the Steelers are doing exactly what you are describing. They are not expecting double digit sacks from their OLBs and arguably are not providing them with the opportunities to achieve that benchmark.

Now is that because they feel that they don't have the pass rush talent to get 20 some sacks between the two position, so why try? Or is it a more fundamental change in approach and if Dupree and Watt rushed at say 2010-11 rates, they would have 8-10 sacks apiece?

Moats would seem to be saying it is the latter and they are willing to trade say 8-14 sacks (using the 27 sacks from the OLB position in 2008 as a highwater and the 13 from 2017 as a low point) for increased sack totals across the board (56 in 2017 compared to 51 in 08) and doing more complicated things in coverage.

The real question is whether or not it is working. That I have no idea about and would need someone to watch like all the tape and break it down for me. If anyone knows where that it exists, I would gladly read it! But outside of that, it is really hard to say. I mean I'm not an idiot and I can clearly see that the 2008 defense was far far better than the 2017 defense, but as to how the strategic shifts are going...can't really tell?

[teegre]

As I’ve asked in every one of these butthurt Harrison threads...


Would you really sit Watt in place of Harrison???

[pczach]

Yep James is horrible jumping into coverage accept for the 100 yard int in the Superbowl.



That was a zone blitz where he jumped out from the line a few yards to a spot. He wasn't running with anybody in coverage.

Apples and oranges. The Zone Blitz scheme ran its course in Pittsburgh because it didn't work anymore.

If you're going to drop a smart ass line like that about coverage, at least know what you're talking about.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

That was a zone blitz where he jumped out from the line a few yards to a spot. He wasn't running with anybody in coverage.

Apples and oranges. The Zone Blitz scheme ran its course in Pittsburgh because it didn't work anymore.

If you're going to drop a smart ass line like that about coverage, at least know what you're talking about. Who the F do you think you are ? I turn the cheek months back when you called me everything in the book. Not this time Punk that you are! You are a idiot that needs to seek help for your anger when someone questions you!

[Mojouw]

I mean if we're just gonna go by what happened. decade ago let's cut Bell and sign Frank Gore. Ditch AB and see if Keyshown Johnson wants to unretire.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pczach]

Who the F do you think you are ? I turn the cheek months back when you called me everything in the book. Not this time Punk that you are! You are a idiot that needs to seek help for your anger when someone questions you!

F off dipshit.

You come on here either high or off your ass drunk and run your mouth all the time. You are always posting stuff that doesn't make sense, and you get riled up if anybody calls you on saying something stupid. You are constantly having to walk back insulting stuff you post at people.

I didn't insult you or toss any personal insults. I responded to your comment on Harrison in coverage that you made in a post where you quoted me. If you know anything about football, you know I'm right in the defense they ran while Harrison was the starter, and on that super bowl play in particular.

If you are going to make sarcastic comments trying to bust my balls, you better know what you're talking about and clearly you don't. You can't compare Harrison faking a rush and dropping back a few yards to a spot with covering a back, tight end, or receiver 30 yards down field in man coverage like the current starting OLB's are doing. Sorry, but I'm sick of this shit of people like you making sarcastic remarks and making claims that are completely untrue in an attempt to prove a point. I'm calling your bullshit.

You know who understands what the position entails and has a complete grasp of how the responsibilities of the OLB have changed? That would be Arthur Moats......not you. You know.....the guy that actually plays the position in question, and has been coached to play the position and all the new responsibilities......so he knows exactly what the differences are since he played both ways and has been with the team the entire time they have been making the transition in the style of play of the OLB.

Do you get it now, or are you going to spew more bullshit to try to cover your ass and continue to live in the land of make believe?

Or maybe you'll just continue to insult me.:jerkit:

[pczach]

I mean if we're just gonna go by what happened. decade ago let's cut Bell and sign Frank Gore. Ditch AB and see if Keyshown Johnson wants to unretire.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I think it's time they bring in Buddy Ryan so he can implement that kick-ass defensive system that dominated the NFL for a couple years. You know......because defenses never go out of style or become obsolete......just like outside linebackers.

[Steeldude]

Are the LBs being dropped into coverage more often because the secondary is so bad?

[pczach]

Are the LBs being dropped into coverage more often because the secondary is so bad?


No, it's the design of the defense.

[Hawkman]

No, it's the design of the defense.

........and I like it......just need to figure out the run defense..

[pczach]

........and I like it......just need to figure out the run defense..


Only time will tell how this works out. It's a work in progress.

They felt they needed to change the scheme because the old zone blitz scheme wouldn't hold up against elite quarterbacks, and the passing game has become a much bigger part of NFL offense. The prototype OLB in the zone blitz scheme was someone that was big and strong to stuff the run, and was a great pass rusher. The coverage responsibilities required limited athleticism, because most of what they did was drop into a zone in an attempt to fool the quarterback into throwing the ball where they wanted him to throw it based on the blitz. The whole idea of zone blitz is deception when the OLB don't rush the quarterback. Usually, the OLB fakes rushing, they blitz another player, and then he would drop to a spot where they hope the quarterback makes a hot read and throws the ball quickly right to where the OLB dropped. They also usually played much closer to the LOS with the short zone drops, and were in better position to come up and make a play in the flat on a check down to a running back, and were able to support the run better because they played almost exclusively zone. In zone, the eyes of the linebackers and secondary are always looking back at the quarterback, so they can react to the run and give more support.

In the new scheme, the OLB's rush the passer less, and have more coverage responsibilities. They make deeper drops, and play less zone and more man coverages than before. It requires the OLB's to have more athleticism, and changes what the defensive linemen do. In the old scheme, the defensive linemen were there to engage and eat up blockers which would free up the linebackers to run to the ball and tackle. The DL is now asked to penetrate more and to rush the passer much more.

Guys like James Harrison weren't the problem. He fit the scheme perfectly and did exactly what was asked of him and did it exceptionally well. The problem was the scheme wouldn't hold up against great quarterbacks that were able to make quick decisions and get rid of the ball quickly while only reading zone coverages. You can't sack anyone when they are able to get rid of the ball in two seconds because they know where to throw it to beat the defense and where all the holes in the zone are. Guys like Brady wouldn't even try to run the ball against that scheme. They would just throw the ball all game and work over the base defense that was on the field.


They've had a year with Watt. Unfortunately, they lost Shazier to injury. I think they need to make some adjustments to the scheme, add more athleticism and talent to the defensive roster at ILB and S, and to simply have players play better at crunch time.

Let's see what they do to address the issues. Hopefully, they put the pieces together to make a stronger unit.

[stillers4me]

Yep James is horrible jumping into coverage accept for the 100 yard int in the Superbowl.

10 years ago. :coffee:

[DesertSteel]

........and I like it......just need to figure out the run defense..
I'm having a hard time getting used to it. I like my OLB's getting 12 sacks. I'll start liking it when we win a super bowl with it.

[Iron Steeler]

James at this point of his career was a one trick pony.

Rush the passer.

I for one wouldn't have mind him rotating with "Dud" Dupree on 3rd and long situations.

Or

In the 4th quarter with a lead and the opposing team is in 100% passing mode.

[Hawkman]

Or

In the 4th quarter with a lead and the opposing team is in 100% passing mode.

How often did that happen?:heh:

[Craic]

Edit.

Nevermind. It helps to look at the date of posts. Imagine that.

[Iron Steeler]

How often did that happen?:heh:

For us never, we like to let teams linger and give our fans a heart attack.