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JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue
02-15-2018, 10:09 AM
Yes Haley saved Ben's career!! So did Bell with a easy dump off to him that ended in a positive gain. People think you can get a rb off the street and plug him in and won't miss a beat. You better get one who is talented like Bell and is great at pass catching. Otherwise this will be Ben's last year without Bell!

smokin3000gt
02-15-2018, 11:17 PM
https://www.zas.pe/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Jackie-Chan-Meme-750x360.jpg

BlackAndGold
02-16-2018, 01:22 AM
Bell won't be going anywhere this year.

SteelerFanInStl
02-16-2018, 07:44 AM
Bell won't be going anywhere this year.

Agreed. The Steelers are working on an extension for him and if they don't get that worked out, he'll get tagged again.

AtlantaDan
02-16-2018, 11:29 AM
Agreed. The Steelers are working on an extension for him and if they don't get that worked out, he'll get tagged again.

Bouchette (who is not a fan of a long term deal) has an article in the P-G today where he concedes the Steelers apparently intend to do a deal.

Ed B. walks through how the $$ could be structured.

Say they were willing to give Bell an average of $15 million over four years or $60 million total. It could break down like this: $24 million to sign, $1 million salary this year and subsequent salaries of $10 million, $12 million, $13 million.

The $24 million bonus would count $6 million annually against the cap over each of the four years. So his cap this year would be $7 million — that $6 million from the bonus plus the $1 million salary.

Bingo. That is, if they want to pay him that much. It not only would give him an average of $15 million annually, but virtually guarantee him $35 million in the first two years. If they could come to terms on, say, a four-year deal that averages $13-14 million, so much the better....


Is he worth it? It may not matter what anyone else thinks; they seem intent on keeping him.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/02/16/leveon-bell-contract-signing-salary-cap-restructuring-cutting-kevin-colbert/stories/201802160146

Mojouw
02-16-2018, 12:01 PM
OK. OK. This is going to get laughed out of the room, but hear me out. The main argument against paying Bell what he wants is that no RB gets paid that much. But what about taking that argument and flipping it on its head?

1. Bell is the first of a wave of RBs that are leading a resurgence in 3 down running and passing weapons across the league (Hunt, David Johnson, Elliot, at least 2 rookies from this class, etc)
2. All "elite" RBs that sign after Bell will be getting 12-16 million on average.

Whatever, I tried, but I still have a hard time swallowing that Bell is going to be worth all that cash.

Born2Steel
02-16-2018, 12:23 PM
Plus....Bell cashed in on one $12M franchise tag on top of the long term deal. So that comes to, $37M in 2 years? Then another $35M over the next 3 years? Looks a lot like the offer last year doesn't it?

JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue
02-16-2018, 11:24 PM
Bouchette (who is not a fan of a long term deal) has an article in the P-G today where he concedes the Steelers apparently intend to do a deal.

Ed B. walks through how the $$ could be structured.

Say they were willing to give Bell an average of $15 million over four years or $60 million total. It could break down like this: $24 million to sign, $1 million salary this year and subsequent salaries of $10 million, $12 million, $13 million.

The $24 million bonus would count $6 million annually against the cap over each of the four years. So his cap this year would be $7 million — that $6 million from the bonus plus the $1 million salary.

Bingo. That is, if they want to pay him that much. It not only would give him an average of $15 million annually, but virtually guarantee him $35 million in the first two years. If they could come to terms on, say, a four-year deal that averages $13-14 million, so much the better....


Is he worth it? It may not matter what anyone else thinks; they seem intent on keeping him.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/02/16/leveon-bell-contract-signing-salary-cap-restructuring-cutting-kevin-colbert/stories/201802160146 Why they seem intent on keeping him is like I said. Steelers realize keeping Bell is beneficial to Ben's health.

ALLD
02-17-2018, 06:33 AM
Keep Bell and get rid of the dead wood on defense and coaching staff. Start thinking more about football and less about entertainment and cool platitudes on the field & during press conferences. Figure out how to win in the postseason instead of just showing up year-after-year.

GBMelBlount
02-17-2018, 08:43 AM
Very risky to sign bell long term at those prices.

First, he is NOT worth that money (4 ypc).

Second, he is on the back end of his career.

Third, he is injury and suspension prone

Finally, it WILL cost us elsewhere.

DesertSteel
02-17-2018, 12:07 PM
Ben was a hall of famer before Bell and he will be one if he leaves. Stating otherwise is a joke.

Craic
02-17-2018, 12:49 PM
Very risky to sign bell long term at those prices.

First, he is NOT worth that money (4 ypc).

Second, he is on the back end of his career.

Third, he is injury and suspension prone

Finally, it WILL cost us elsewhere.

I'm not sure it's all that bad. First, the 4 ypc average doesn't tell the whole story. Often last year Bell was making 2 and 3 yards after getting hit in the backfield. He was almost always falling forward, too. Moreover, his value falls just as much on his ability to play WR or to be the safety valve that Ben can trust.

Second, statistically, you're right. But if we're going by statistical averages, then even with Bell's dropoff, he'll stay a 1000+ yard back until his final year of the contact. And even then, he'll be close to a thousand yards. Close enough that he might hit it (again, if we're using statistical averages for a players age/dropoff in production. There's a thread around here where I go through it year by year).

Third, I wouldn't call him injury prone any more than I'd call Jerome Bettis injury prone. The injuries Bell did have at the beginning of his career were freak injuries that one dirty player kept causing. As for suspensions, he's been suspended twice in five years, the last one coming at the beginning of the 2016 season. We're now in 2018 and the kid is now a twenty-six year old man (as of tomorrow).

Finally, yes, it will cost us, but It'll cost us more not to have him. Ben's on his last contract (I'm including a possible year extension in that statement). Our SB window is closing, and we have almost all the pieces to get there. Losing one of them would be bad idea. Go ahead and put us in salary cap hell for two or three years starting in 2021 or 2022 if it'll give us a good chance of getting another Lombardi or two.

Mojouw
02-17-2018, 01:46 PM
Very risky to sign bell long term at those prices.

First, he is NOT worth that money (4 ypc).

Second, he is on the back end of his career.

Third, he is injury and suspension prone

Finally, it WILL cost us elsewhere.

Where? Free agents? Players on the roster? General uneasiness? Not doubting your claim, just trying to understand what you see as the specific opportunity cost of giving Bell big cap dollars.

One could be...signing Bell to a big $$ contract means that Martavis Bryant is not a Steeler after the 2018 season. Okay. Totally reasonable. Another is that after another year of injuries and only above average production Joe Haden at $11+ million dollars is a luxury the Steelers can not afford with Bell's large contract.

Now I have no idea if either of those statements are true or will be true, but is that the line of thinking or just a general sense of foreboding?

Shoes
02-17-2018, 02:11 PM
New's flash! Le'Veon Bell isn't going to change the Steeler way of doing business.

Steelers WILL NOT give in to Bell's high demands of last year, you can take that to the bank. While theses player like to talk about football being a business and act as they hold the keys to the city, the Rooneys are much more business minded and have been doing this for a very long time.

I do think the Steelers would like to keep him and I think they will offer him a fair wage, they did last year! I think they also sense that while Bell speaks with forked tongue and says he wants to remain a Steeler they know he has his sniffer to the 4 winds. I'm sure his smoking buddy, LeGarrette and his 3 SB are dancing in his head.

Offer him a fair wage, if he takes it, good. If he doesn't, tag him and draft a RB. I don't think the Steeler are spending as much time on Bell's contract as we are. They have their plan and they will stick to it.

DesertSteel
02-17-2018, 03:00 PM
Very risky to sign bell long term at those prices.

First, he is NOT worth that money (4 ypc).

Second, he is on the back end of his career.

Third, he is injury and suspension prone

Finally, it WILL cost us elsewhere.
Pay the man!

Six Rings
02-17-2018, 03:39 PM
Yes Haley saved Ben's career!! So did Bell with a easy dump off to him that ended in a positive gain. People think you can get a rb off the street and plug him in and won't miss a beat. You better get one who is talented like Bell and is great at pass catching. Otherwise this will be Ben's last year without Bell!

Send him to Cleveland for Barkely ( 1st or 4th pick ). Steelers get a younger, more explosive back, and save 10 million + on the cap. No brainer!

Mojouw
02-17-2018, 05:11 PM
Send him to Cleveland for Barkely ( 1st or 4th pick ). Steelers get a younger, more explosive back, and save 10 million + on the cap. No brainer!

That literally makes no sense.

DesertSteel
02-17-2018, 05:52 PM
That literally makes no sense.
For Cleveland.

Mojouw
02-17-2018, 06:04 PM
For Cleveland.
Exactly. It is like when people used to argue that Pouncey wasn’t really that good and we should unload him for a second or first round pick. WTF incentive does any team have to trade for Bell is all he is is an overpriced malcontent? If he is worth the 1st or 4th overall pick all by his lonesome than he is actually worth 12-15 million per year.

GBMelBlount
02-17-2018, 07:37 PM
Where? Free agents? Players on the roster? General uneasiness? Not doubting your claim, just trying to understand what you see as the specific opportunity cost of giving Bell big cap dollars.

One could be...signing Bell to a big $$ contract means that Martavis Bryant is not a Steeler after the 2018 season. Okay. Totally reasonable. Another is that after another year of injuries and only above average production Joe Haden at $11+ million dollars is a luxury the Steelers can not afford with Bell's large contract.

Now I have no idea if either of those statements are true or will be true, but is that the line of thinking or just a general sense of foreboding?

Due to the cap, by grossly overpaying Bell it costs us elsewhere. I don't know what else to say on the opportunity cost. It is implicit.

He averages 4 ypc which is less than 20 other running backs. In other words, there are 20 other guys who if you gave the ball to them as many times as Bell they would arguably gain MORE yards.

So let's be generous and pay him $5 million for his his pedestrian ypc?

As a receiver, Bell ranked 55th with 655 yards. His ypc is relatively low...

So let's be generous and pay him what, 3-4 million?

So being fair, that comes out to what, 8 - 9 million?

I am trying to be open-minded but any way you look at the numbers I have no clue why people think he is worth 12 - 15 million?

Plus we are paying Brown an incredibly huge paycheck which he IS worth imo and we are paying what, 65%-70% of our payroll to our offense already?

Wouldn't it be nice to use the money to upgrade the defense so we don't give up 50 points per game to average QB's?

Invest the money we don't waste by insanely overpaying Bell, on the defense, then spread the ball to juju and bryant more and give the ball to conner (who has a better ypc) and the new running back we draft.

That's my two cents!:drink:

Six Rings
02-18-2018, 06:41 AM
Exactly. It is like when people used to argue that Pouncey wasn’t really that good and we should unload him for a second or first round pick. WTF incentive does any team have to trade for Bell is all he is is an overpriced malcontent? If he is worth the 1st or 4th overall pick all by his lonesome than he is actually worth 12-15 million per year.





If you are the Browns, a potential franchise QB drafted and Bell would give a reason for hope.


Bell isn't worth the tag. He's a distraction who runs behind a great OL, flanked by a HOF QB, and amazing skills players. It's easy to run the ball here. So why does he have are big plays and a scant 4.0 years per rushing attempt.


When Bell was out for a while, a player picked up for cheap in Williams did just as well running the ball. You can look it up. Our look at the teams who win the super bowl. They don't; spend a lot of money on their backs. They have one back to run, another to catch.


I'd rather trade Bell for the top back in the draft who is more explosive, much less expensive, does;t troll on social media, and isn't one flunked drug test away from an eight-game suspension.

Born2Steel
02-18-2018, 07:58 AM
If you are the Browns, a potential franchise QB drafted and Bell would give a reason for hope.


Bell isn't worth the tag. He's a distraction who runs behind a great OL, flanked by a HOF QB, and amazing skills players. It's easy to run the ball here. So why does he have are big plays and a scant 4.0 years per rushing attempt.


When Bell was out for a while, a player picked up for cheap in Williams did just as well running the ball. You can look it up. Our look at the teams who win the super bowl. They don't; spend a lot of money on their backs. They have one back to run, another to catch.


I'd rather trade Bell for the top back in the draft who is more explosive, much less expensive, does;t troll on social media, and isn't one flunked drug test away from an eight-game suspension.

That OL also blocked for Dwyer, and Redman, and Toussaint, and Davis, and Watson, and Archer, and Ridley, and probably some others I have forgotten. None of them set the league on fire like bell has. Also, that random RB "Williams" holds nearly every rushing record for Carolina I believe, also holds quite a few NCAA rushing records. That was not just some chump RB off the streets. If replacing Bell for another RB that will save the Steelers $5M+, then I need a name and a realistic plan. Just sign another RB is not a valid plan because we have had other RBs here that DID NOT WORK.

Stats only show part of the production. Just as with penalties, turn overs, sacks, and even scores, most of the time the most critical part of those plays is the timing during the game, the game situation in which they occurred. You simply must count the intangible plays Bell makes. The 2-3 tough yards on 3rd down to make a first. Those mean as much as a 15-20 yard run, just don't look as nice on a stat sheet. When Ben has to check down and finds Bell open for a 5 yard gain instead of throwing it away, or trying to fit it, or taking a sack, those plays have added value that Bell provides. All RBs are not equal. Bell was tagged for $12M, how can you now say he's worth less than that same $12M? When Bell's production has been carried over his entire career, some of you really think you can just add in another guy and get those same results? That blows my mind. Yes, there is a chance, but an even better chance of getting another (insert previous Steeler RB name here).

pczach
02-18-2018, 08:36 AM
That OL also blocked for Dwyer, and Redman, and Toussaint, and Davis, and Watson, and Archer, and Ridley, and probably some others I have forgotten. None of them set the league on fire like bell has. Also, that random RB "Williams" holds nearly every rushing record for Carolina I believe, also holds quite a few NCAA rushing records. That was not just some chump RB off the streets. If replacing Bell for another RB that will save the Steelers $5M+, then I need a name and a realistic plan. Just sign another RB is not a valid plan because we have had other RBs here that DID NOT WORK.

Stats only show part of the production. Just as with penalties, turn overs, sacks, and even scores, most of the time the most critical part of those plays is the timing during the game, the game situation in which they occurred. You simply must count the intangible plays Bell makes. The 2-3 tough yards on 3rd down to make a first. Those mean as much as a 15-20 yard run, just don't look as nice on a stat sheet. When Ben has to check down and finds Bell open for a 5 yard gain instead of throwing it away, or trying to fit it, or taking a sack, those plays have added value that Bell provides. All RBs are not equal. Bell was tagged for $12M, how can you now say he's worth less than that same $12M? When Bell's production has been carried over his entire career, some of you really think you can just add in another guy and get those same results? That blows my mind. Yes, there is a chance, but an even better chance of getting another (insert previous Steeler RB name here).


The other thing is that everyone wants to say how good this offensive line is, but in short yardage situations, they have regressed when it comes to running the ball. They have become more of a finesse OL. They rarely just blow people off the ball, which is required in straight ahead run blocking in short yardage situations.

Unless you're running toss sweeps on 4th down and an inch with 10 defenders at the line of scrimmage.....:chuckle:

pczach
02-18-2018, 08:49 AM
One more thing. I've been tough on Bell because of his antics and the money he is demanding. The one thing nobody is mentioning about him is how he performs in the playoffs. He's been lights out at crunch time. He averages 5.2 yards per carry and 106 rushing yards per game in 4 playoff games. When you combine that with his receiving threat, he has been a stud.

Here are his career playoff stats. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BellLe00.htm

Mojouw
02-18-2018, 10:31 AM
If you are the Browns, a potential franchise QB drafted and Bell would give a reason for hope.


Bell isn't worth the tag. He's a distraction who runs behind a great OL, flanked by a HOF QB, and amazing skills players. It's easy to run the ball here. So why does he have are big plays and a scant 4.0 years per rushing attempt.


When Bell was out for a while, a player picked up for cheap in Williams did just as well running the ball. You can look it up. Our look at the teams who win the super bowl. They don't; spend a lot of money on their backs. They have one back to run, another to catch.


I'd rather trade Bell for the top back in the draft who is more explosive, much less expensive, does;t troll on social media, and isn't one flunked drug test away from an eight-game suspension.

If all that is true, why would the Browns do the deal? Because it works in Madden? How can you simultaneously argue that Bell is not worth 12-15 million per and that he is worth a top 4 draft pick?

Barkley on a cheap rookie deal would be awesome but the Browns have no incentive to make that deal. Would need to add 2019 first rounder at least.

GBMelBlount
02-18-2018, 10:53 AM
Practically any random starting running back in the NFL right now should average 4.0 ypc behind our top 5 offensive line.

12 - 15 million per year for average ypc and average yards per reception behind a top 5 line?

No thank you.


That OL also blocked for Dwyer, and Redman, and Toussaint, and Davis, and Watson, and Archer, and Ridley, and probably some others I have forgotten. None of them set the league on fire like bell has. Also, that random RB "Williams" holds nearly every rushing record for Carolina I believe, also holds quite a few NCAA rushing records. That was not just some chump RB off the streets. If replacing Bell for another RB that will save the Steelers $5M+, then I need a name and a realistic plan. Just sign another RB is not a valid plan because we have had other RBs here that DID NOT WORK.

Stats only show part of the production. Just as with penalties, turn overs, sacks, and even scores, most of the time the most critical part of those plays is the timing during the game, the game situation in which they occurred. You simply must count the intangible plays Bell makes. The 2-3 tough yards on 3rd down to make a first. Those mean as much as a 15-20 yard run, just don't look as nice on a stat sheet. When Ben has to check down and finds Bell open for a 5 yard gain instead of throwing it away, or trying to fit it, or taking a sack, those plays have added value that Bell provides. All RBs are not equal. Bell was tagged for $12M, how can you now say he's worth less than that same $12M? When Bell's production has been carried over his entire career, some of you really think you can just add in another guy and get those same results? That blows my mind. Yes, there is a chance, but an even better chance of getting another (insert previous Steeler RB name here).

Born2Steel
02-18-2018, 11:24 AM
Practically any random starting running back in the NFL right now should average 4.0 ypc behind our top 5 offensive line.

12 - 15 million per year for average ypc and average yards per reception behind a top 5 line?

No thank you.


It's that "ANY RANDOM" that we disagree on. It keeps getting proven time and again that not all players are equal, yet "ANY RANDOM" keeps popping up. Does "ANY RANDOM" have a name by chance?

Neversatisfied
02-18-2018, 11:53 AM
I like the idea of trading Bell in the draft to move up.
This draft has a few very promising QBs and the Steelers need the next franchise guy. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking Ben will be around until 2020, it's time to groom the next QB.
Secondly, Connor is a very good back, pair him him a speed back with good hands out in the draft and you've got potential for success. Bell is a very good back but his attitude sucks and a coach like Tomlin needs guys to keep themselves in check.

Mojouw
02-18-2018, 11:59 AM
Here are the options the Steelers have to replace Bell and a short commentary on each:

1. James Conner - a shredded knee late in the year and an almost total inability to pass block. Lack of an off-season and practice time will not help this. Knee is likely not going to be ready for start of the season.
2. Touissant - a replacement level back at best. Does nothing all that well other than know the playbook.
3. Ridley - also a replacement level guy with a bucket-load of injuries to carry around. Technically would need resigned.
4. Draft pick - this seems to be everyone's favorite answer. Yet everyone wants an ILB, a FS, an OLB, and another ILB. Only have so many draft picks. IF Steelers want a solid Bell replacement, it is likely Kerryon Johnson in the 2nd round. If he blows up at the combine, make that the 1st round.
5. Free Agent - another popular answer. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/running-back/ That's the list. So....Jeremy Hill?

If we are going to have a conversation, lets at least have a realistic one. Conner's injury really changed the equation. There is no "built in" safety net this season. Also, I don't think Conner is really all that good. I know he is a great story and everyone is rooting for him. But what little time he got on the field demonstrated that he is still a total zero in the passing game. Looks uncomfortable catching the ball and is the kinda pass blocker that gets your QB killed and causes turnovers - both of which happened repeatedly in his rookie year. Could he get better? Sure...but not without practice time...which his injury prevents.

Born2Steel
02-18-2018, 12:11 PM
All you have to do is make a list of ALL the players that played RB since Bell entered the league. Now, narrow that list down to ALL the RBs that have produced 1900 yards from scrimmage in each of those seasons. Curious to see ALL the names on that list.

Now explain how "a draft pick" or "any random" or "get a guy" method actually works. Having a conversation on how much Bell should make, and how much Bell is worth, are 2 different conversations.

Bluecoat96
02-18-2018, 12:23 PM
Here are the options the Steelers have to replace Bell and a short commentary on each:

1. James Conner - a shredded knee late in the year and an almost total inability to pass block. Lack of an off-season and practice time will not help this. Knee is likely not going to be ready for start of the season.
2. Touissant - a replacement level back at best. Does nothing all that well other than know the playbook.
3. Ridley - also a replacement level guy with a bucket-load of injuries to carry around. Technically would need resigned.
4. Draft pick - this seems to be everyone's favorite answer. Yet everyone wants an ILB, a FS, an OLB, and another ILB. Only have so many draft picks. IF Steelers want a solid Bell replacement, it is likely Kerryon Johnson in the 2nd round. If he blows up at the combine, make that the 1st round.
5. Free Agent - another popular answer. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/running-back/ That's the list. So....Jeremy Hill?

If we are going to have a conversation, lets at least have a realistic one. Conner's injury really changed the equation. There is no "built in" safety net this season. Also, I don't think Conner is really all that good. I know he is a great story and everyone is rooting for him. But what little time he got on the field demonstrated that he is still a total zero in the passing game. Looks uncomfortable catching the ball and is the kinda pass blocker that gets your QB killed and causes turnovers - both of which happened repeatedly in his rookie year. Could he get better? Sure...but not without practice time...which his injury prevents.

Not to downplay Conner's injury, but it was "just" an MCL injury. I tried to find someone specifics on his recovery timeline, but was unsuccessful. I have to think that he'll be ready a lot quicker than you think. Could be wrong though. It wouldn't be the first time. Just ask my wife. Lol


Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

Shoes
02-18-2018, 12:32 PM
Steelers shouldn't pay Le'Veon Bell
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000916582/article/steelers-shouldnt-pay-leveon-bell-johnny-manziels-best-path

Born2Steel
02-18-2018, 01:15 PM
Not to downplay Conner's injury, but it was "just" an MCL injury. I tried to find someone specifics on his recovery timeline, but was unsuccessful. I have to think that he'll be ready a lot quicker than you think. Could be wrong though. It wouldn't be the first time. Just ask my wife. Lol


Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

https://www.vivehealth.com/blogs/resources/mcl-tear

This looks like a fairly good site on the MCL injury itself. Probably fits the Conner conversation.

lipps83
02-18-2018, 01:20 PM
Steelers shouldn't pay Le'Veon Bell
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000916582/article/steelers-shouldnt-pay-leveon-bell-johnny-manziels-best-path

Please let him walk. Don't cripple the team for one player. His demands wouldn't be worth it even if he were still the best back in the league, which he is not any longer.

Born2Steel
02-18-2018, 01:37 PM
Some stats to put a perspective on things:Top5 Rushers of 2017 w/career stats.

http://www.nfl.com/player/le%27veonbell/2540175/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/toddgurley/2552475/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/kareemhunt/2557917/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/leseanmccoy/79607/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/markingram/2495466/careerstats

4 RBs averaged 20+ carries per game in 2017. Here's their yards/carry averages with total attempts on the season:

LeVeon Bell 4.0 with 321 attempts

Leonard Fournette 3.9 with 268 attempts

Ezekial Elliott 4.1 with 242 attempts

Adrian Peterson 3.5 with 129 attempts

And the ONLY RB that was targeted in the passing game more than Bell? Christian McCaffrey by 7.

Born2Steel
02-18-2018, 01:43 PM
Here are the options the Steelers have to replace Bell and a short commentary on each:

1. James Conner - a shredded knee late in the year and an almost total inability to pass block. Lack of an off-season and practice time will not help this. Knee is likely not going to be ready for start of the season.
2. Touissant - a replacement level back at best. Does nothing all that well other than know the playbook.
3. Ridley - also a replacement level guy with a bucket-load of injuries to carry around. Technically would need resigned.
4. Draft pick - this seems to be everyone's favorite answer. Yet everyone wants an ILB, a FS, an OLB, and another ILB. Only have so many draft picks. IF Steelers want a solid Bell replacement, it is likely Kerryon Johnson in the 2nd round. If he blows up at the combine, make that the 1st round.
5. Free Agent - another popular answer. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/running-back/ That's the list. So....Jeremy Hill?

If we are going to have a conversation, lets at least have a realistic one. Conner's injury really changed the equation. There is no "built in" safety net this season. Also, I don't think Conner is really all that good. I know he is a great story and everyone is rooting for him. But what little time he got on the field demonstrated that he is still a total zero in the passing game. Looks uncomfortable catching the ball and is the kinda pass blocker that gets your QB killed and causes turnovers - both of which happened repeatedly in his rookie year. Could he get better? Sure...but not without practice time...which his injury prevents.

Add a little more on the FA market, Jeremy Hill will also be 26 this year. Apples to apples, I still pay Bell.

Shoes
02-18-2018, 02:29 PM
Bell doesn't want a reasonable contract, this is what I'd do.

Bucky Brooks & Charlie Casserly

Round 1 Derrius Guice

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2018/mock-drafts

RunNGun
02-18-2018, 02:56 PM
I'm ready to move on from Bell. I understand what he brings to the table. He is, and has been the most productive RB in the league over the last few seasons, but like others have mentioned, he is on the downside of his career. He looked a step slower last season and lacked explosiveness. The only way I want him back is if we tag him. We could use that money elsewhere, like safety or ILB.

We won a super bowl with Willie Parker in case you have forgotten. Willie could run fast and that's about all he brought to the table. He couldn't catch a cold, and wasn't great in pass protection, but we managed, and actually won a super bowl. If Bell doesn't take the tag, let him walk and draft his replacememt.

Craic
02-18-2018, 04:00 PM
Steelers shouldn't pay Le'Veon Bell
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000916582/article/steelers-shouldnt-pay-leveon-bell-johnny-manziels-best-path

That's basically a repeat of what's been said in this thread, and again, it fails to see the point that at Bell's level of production, a decline over the next three years or so will still keep him a 1000+ yard back every year.

GB -
As for running behind this line, I think you give it too much credit. There were several times this year the line just about imploded in games. I couldn't find anything else for stats, but this stat at least correlates to a degree:


Le’Veon Bell is still the gold-standard for the running back position in the NFL. Over the last three seasons, he’s averaging 2.85 yards after contact per attempt, including a ridiculous 3.7 over 69 carries this season. Bell also had just a single fumble over that span, making him one of the most-secure options in the NFL. https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-rb-units-entering-nfl-week-9

Note, that was the half-way point in the season when Bell had some bad games to start. In fact, they are only in 11th place for yards gained before a Defensive player is within 1 yard of the RB. ON top of all that, I submit there's another reason Bell's numbers are down, and it has nothing to do with Bell.

EVERYONE and their dog knew that when the Steelers line up in any kind of bunch set close to the line, it's going to be a run. ANYTIME you see a formation where WRs are not fanned out, it is almost guaranteed. If that changes this year, I think we see his average go up by a significant amount.

DesertSteel
02-18-2018, 04:08 PM
Here are the options the Steelers have to replace Bell and a short commentary on each:

1. James Conner - a shredded knee late in the year and an almost total inability to pass block. Lack of an off-season and practice time will not help this. Knee is likely not going to be ready for start of the season.
2. Touissant - a replacement level back at best. Does nothing all that well other than know the playbook.
3. Ridley - also a replacement level guy with a bucket-load of injuries to carry around. Technically would need resigned.
4. Draft pick - this seems to be everyone's favorite answer. Yet everyone wants an ILB, a FS, an OLB, and another ILB. Only have so many draft picks. IF Steelers want a solid Bell replacement, it is likely Kerryon Johnson in the 2nd round. If he blows up at the combine, make that the 1st round.
5. Free Agent - another popular answer. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/running-back/ That's the list. So....Jeremy Hill?

If we are going to have a conversation, lets at least have a realistic one. Conner's injury really changed the equation. There is no "built in" safety net this season. Also, I don't think Conner is really all that good. I know he is a great story and everyone is rooting for him. But what little time he got on the field demonstrated that he is still a total zero in the passing game. Looks uncomfortable catching the ball and is the kinda pass blocker that gets your QB killed and causes turnovers - both of which happened repeatedly in his rookie year. Could he get better? Sure...but not without practice time...which his injury prevents.
Could you try to be a little more negative next time? Lol. Should we list all of Bell's shortcomings? Personally, I think Conner has way more upside the you give him credit for.

Mojouw
02-18-2018, 04:34 PM
Could you try to be a little more negative next time? Lol. Should we list all of Bell's shortcomings? Personally, I think Conner has way more upside the you give him credit for.

It isn't negative it is realistic. Remember the playoff game that relied on Touissant and some dudes? Ridley's medical chart is expanding at about the same rate as my waistline.

As to Conner, I honestly didn't see anything from his rookie year that made it seem that he was more than just another guy. He has some burst and he has the mindset to hit the hole hard. Those are good things. But he is just a total detriment at this point on 3rd downs and other obvious passing situations. At least one of the 5 INTS in the first Jax games was directly linked to Conner blowing a blitz pick-up. Few other times he got Ben socked pretty good.

Now if he could practice, run, and lift at some point before mid-summer then I might change my mind. But I am not certain of his MCL re-hab timeline. But I sure as hell wouldn't go into the draft and camp with my #1 RB option being a guy who can't blitz pick-up, hurt his knee in Week 15, and has 32 NFL rushes to his name confident that I have Bell's production "replaced".

Can the Steelers field a 1000 yard back not named Leveon Bell in 2018? More than likely. Can they find a guy to replace everything that Bell does? Not likely unless they want to spend a 1st or 2nd round pick at RB instead of LB. That't the choice more than anything else. The cap space can be found - it always can. But don't pay Bell and go after a #1 RB in the draft and you get a 2nd tier ILB prospect and a 3rd tier safety prospect.

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Some stats to put a perspective on things:Top5 Rushers of 2017 w/career stats.

http://www.nfl.com/player/le%27veonbell/2540175/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/toddgurley/2552475/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/kareemhunt/2557917/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/leseanmccoy/79607/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/markingram/2495466/careerstats

4 RBs averaged 20+ carries per game in 2017. Here's their yards/carry averages with total attempts on the season:

LeVeon Bell 4.0 with 321 attempts

Leonard Fournette 3.9 with 268 attempts

Ezekial Elliott 4.1 with 242 attempts

Adrian Peterson 3.5 with 129 attempts

And the ONLY RB that was targeted in the passing game more than Bell? Christian McCaffrey by 7.

Pffft. I prefer totally arbitrary benchmarks. Anything less than 4.5 yards per carry is totally useless.

Shoes
02-18-2018, 04:36 PM
It isn't negative it is realistic. Remember the playoff game that relied on Touissant and some dudes? Ridley's medical chart is expanding at about the same rate as my waistline.

As to Conner, I honestly didn't see anything from his rookie year that made it seem that he was more than just another guy. He has some burst and he has the mindset to hit the hole hard. Those are good things. But he is just a total detriment at this point on 3rd downs and other obvious passing situations. At least one of the 5 INTS in the first Jax games was directly linked to Conner blowing a blitz pick-up. Few other times he got Ben socked pretty good.

Now if he could practice, run, and lift at some point before mid-summer then I might change my mind. But I am not certain of his MCL re-hab timeline. But I sure as hell wouldn't go into the draft and camp with my #1 RB option being a guy who can't blitz pick-up, hurt his knee in Week 15, and has 32 NFL rushes to his name confident that I have Bell's production "replaced".

Can the Steelers field a 1000 yard back not named Leveon Bell in 2018? More than likely. Can they find a guy to replace everything that Bell does? Not likely unless they want to spend a 1st or 2nd round pick at RB instead of LB. That't the choice more than anything else. The cap space can be found - it always can. But don't pay Bell and go after a #1 RB in the draft and you get a 2nd tier ILB prospect and a 3rd tier safety prospect.

Whats the difference, we have the #1 RB & WR'ers and still come up short, throwing money at offensive players obviously isn't the answer.

DesertSteel
02-18-2018, 04:46 PM
It isn't negative it is realistic. Remember the playoff game that relied on Touissant and some dudes? Ridley's medical chart is expanding at about the same rate as my waistline.

As to Conner, I honestly didn't see anything from his rookie year that made it seem that he was more than just another guy. He has some burst and he has the mindset to hit the hole hard. Those are good things. But he is just a total detriment at this point on 3rd downs and other obvious passing situations. At least one of the 5 INTS in the first Jax games was directly linked to Conner blowing a blitz pick-up. Few other times he got Ben socked pretty good.

Now if he could practice, run, and lift at some point before mid-summer then I might change my mind. But I am not certain of his MCL re-hab timeline. But I sure as hell wouldn't go into the draft and camp with my #1 RB option being a guy who can't blitz pick-up, hurt his knee in Week 15, and has 32 NFL rushes to his name confident that I have Bell's production "replaced".

Can the Steelers field a 1000 yard back not named Leveon Bell in 2018? More than likely. Can they find a guy to replace everything that Bell does? Not likely unless they want to spend a 1st or 2nd round pick at RB instead of LB. That't the choice more than anything else. The cap space can be found - it always can. But don't pay Bell and go after a #1 RB in the draft and you get a 2nd tier ILB prospect and a 3rd tier safety prospect.

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Pffft. I prefer totally arbitrary benchmarks. Anything less than 4.5 yards per carry is totally useless.
It's negative when you frame your realistic picture with the downside of every option. I realize you're trying to prove your case to keep Bell. There's just some on the jury who aren't buying Bell at all costs.

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[/B]Whats the difference, we have the #1 RB & WR'ers and still come up short, throwing money at offensive players obviously isn't the answer.

Exactly!

Mojouw
02-18-2018, 04:49 PM
Ok. OK. Someone needs to walk me through the logic. Why the hell would a team with SB aspirations and 2 glaring weaknesses (ILB and Safety) open up a 3rd weakness (RB) and then take the resources needed to address one of the first 2 weaknesses (first 3 round draft picks) to address RB? That's what people are basically arguing for.

Oh, but cap space....won't someone think of the cap space! Whatever. This was my main concern even a handful of weeks ago. But then I remembered that cap space is just a made up # in the NFL! Using calculators found online it seems the Steelers can find over 25 million in cap space if they wanted to where the only starting player being cut is Mike Mitchell. The restructures are to young(ish) stalwarts such as Decastro, Tuitt, and Heyward. Throw in an extension/restructure to the franchise QB and you have all the cap space anyone could every want. So, there goes that problem.

Also look at the list of FA linebackers in particular. There is no "sideline to sideline good in coverage able to stop the run shoot the gaps and make plays behind the line of scrimmage turnover forcing ILB" available in free agency. Shockingly enough every team wants more than one of those guys on their roster. As a result, they don't hit the open market. If you want an athletic marvel to anchor the middle of the defense, that is your first round draft pick. Full stop. No other option exists.

Help could be found at safety through the free agent market. But Joyner and Burnett may not even make the open market. Joyner is smaller than Willie Gay. Burnett is only one year younger than Mitchell. Also remember when Mitchell signed he was one of the more heralded FA safeties that year. How'd that work out? Oh, but Tre Boston! Okay. A guy who got some hype early in his career kinda didn't do squat and then had a pretty darn good year in a contract year. You know who else took that EXACT same career path? Mike Mitchell. You know the dude everyone wants to run out of town on a rail.

You can't have it all. If Leveon Bell is deemed too expensive and not worth the cash then there are consequences for that. There will be no rookie starting safety. Mike Mitchell will likely make the 2018 roster. There may be no amazing ILB drafted, but rather a solid guy with limitations will be brought in to compete with someone from the free agent market. That could all work. Not every position has to be a star. But the conversation has to be couched in terms of trade-offs. Right now, it is just "DRAFT SOME AMAZING GUY IN THE FIRST ROUND!" with no consideration of the fact that most people have that pick slotted in as the starting ILB. Since this isn't 1933, can't be be both.

Mojouw
02-18-2018, 04:59 PM
It's negative when you frame your realistic picture with the downside of every option. I realize you're trying to prove your case to keep Bell. There's just some on the jury who aren't buying Bell at all costs.

I am not trying to prove that Bell should be kept. I am simply trying to prove that "Not Bell" is far from the simplified sunshine and rainbows scenario that seems to be floating around. Not paying Bell, and to be clear I think the Steelers should stick to their guns and only offer Bell a contract that they feel is a reasonable approximation of his value and has terms somewhat in favor of the franchise, has consequences. Those consequences may be good and they may be bad.

And if we are not winning by throwing money at offensive players, what is the logic in then turning around and drafting a RB in the first round?! Can't have your cake and eat it to guys.

I fully realize that if the Steelers sign Bell then no other big name/impact free agent is coming to town. From my personal "read" on the free agents available, I'm okay with that because I believe the Steelers can get better players at their "need" positions in the draft.

But the "don't pay Bell" camp seems to be betting the farm on Conner coming back and being average at worst. And/or spending a top 3 round pick on a RB (that's what it takes). So what position do you NOT want to improve through the draft on defense? ILB, FS/SS, OLB, DT? That's the choice if a #1 RB becomes a draft need. Is NOT having to select a RB and being able to get more playmakers on the defensive side of the ball worth part of Bell's contract $$$? I don't know. It might be.

Of course, none of this matters because the Steelers will take a guard, a long snapper, and a WR in the first 3 rounds anyways.

Mojouw
02-18-2018, 05:04 PM
Add a little more on the FA market, Jeremy Hill will also be 26 this year. Apples to apples, I still pay Bell.

I would too. I mean the list can be divided up into "old RBs", "minor part of a RB rotation", or "guys that failed to seize the #1 role despite repeated opportunities". I guess some poo-poo platter of Crowell, Mckinnon, Sankey, West, Lacy, Hill, and Hyde could be cobbled together where 2-3 of those guys can be a rotation that approximates a competent NFL backfield.

pczach
02-18-2018, 05:24 PM
It isn't negative it is realistic. Remember the playoff game that relied on Touissant and some dudes? Ridley's medical chart is expanding at about the same rate as my waistline.

As to Conner, I honestly didn't see anything from his rookie year that made it seem that he was more than just another guy. He has some burst and he has the mindset to hit the hole hard. Those are good things. But he is just a total detriment at this point on 3rd downs and other obvious passing situations. At least one of the 5 INTS in the first Jax games was directly linked to Conner blowing a blitz pick-up. Few other times he got Ben socked pretty good.

Now if he could practice, run, and lift at some point before mid-summer then I might change my mind. But I am not certain of his MCL re-hab timeline. But I sure as hell wouldn't go into the draft and camp with my #1 RB option being a guy who can't blitz pick-up, hurt his knee in Week 15, and has 32 NFL rushes to his name confident that I have Bell's production "replaced".

Can the Steelers field a 1000 yard back not named Leveon Bell in 2018? More than likely. Can they find a guy to replace everything that Bell does? Not likely unless they want to spend a 1st or 2nd round pick at RB instead of LB. That't the choice more than anything else. The cap space can be found - it always can. But don't pay Bell and go after a #1 RB in the draft and you get a 2nd tier ILB prospect and a 3rd tier safety prospect.


I think you're selling Conner a little short. I don't think we've seen enough of Conner to make a determination. A handful of carries makes it very difficult for a running back to show anything.

I believe he's a very good runner, and if given the chance, can do much better than the Dwyer, Redman, Toussaint, backups. I'm not saying he's a feature back, but I think he is much better as a runner, has more explosion, and has good upside. The injury will definitely slow him early in the year, and we may not be able to see what he can truly do for a while, but he can run. As you said, he needs to work on his pass protection and his receiving. I believe that will improve because most of that is want. I see this kid as a worker and a player that is willing to work hard to do anything he is asked to do. He will improve those parts of his game IMO. He's never going to be the natural receiver with soft hands that Bell is, but once he gets a better feel for the game at this level, it will come to him on some level.

We really need to see him get healthy and get more reps. Many thought Bell was nothing special after his rookie season. He has definitely grown since then and I believe Conner will grow as well in his own way.

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I would too. I mean the list can be divided up into "old RBs", "minor part of a RB rotation", or "guys that failed to seize the #1 role despite repeated opportunities". I guess some poo-poo platter of Crowell, Mckinnon, Sankey, West, Lacy, Hill, and Hyde could be cobbled together where 2-3 of those guys can be a rotation that approximates a competent NFL backfield.


Do you mean we still have the opportunity to take Lacy over Bell? Woohoo!!!

:lol:

Mojouw
02-18-2018, 05:42 PM
I think you're selling Conner a little short. I don't think we've seen enough of Conner to make a determination. A handful of carries makes it very difficult for a running back to show anything.

I believe he's a very good runner, and if given the chance, can do much better than the Dwyer, Redman, Toussaint, backups. I'm not saying he's a feature back, but I think he is much better as a runner, has more explosion, and has good upside. The injury will definitely slow him early in the year, and we may not be able to see what he can truly do for a while, but he can run. As you said, he needs to work on his pass protection and his receiving. I believe that will improve because most of that is want. I see this kid as a worker and a player that is willing to work hard to do anything he is asked to do. He will improve those parts of his game IMO. He's never going to be the natural receiver with soft hands that Bell is, but once he gets a better feel for the game at this level, it will come to him on some level.

We really need to see him get healthy and get more reps. Many thought Bell was nothing special after his rookie season. He has definitely grown since then and I believe Conner will grow as well in his own way.

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Do you mean we still have the opportunity to take Lacy over Bell? Woohoo!!!

:lol:

You're most likely correct and Conner isnt as bad as I fear. But would everyone think as positively of him if he wasn't an underdog story and from Pitt?

Born2Steel
02-18-2018, 05:45 PM
On the RB draft front, I could see offering Bell the 2018 franchise tag. Take Rashaan Evans(Bama) at 28(because we all know that's where he's going), spend our round 2 on a larger RB like Royce Freeman(OR) or Josh Adams(ND), have our Bettis 2.0 to pair with Conner(or replace Conner on the DC). 3rd round is going to get tricky now. All of the top ranked Safeties, DBs, and LBs will be gone by now. Here we take a true blue, dyed in the wool NT, maybe B.J. Hill(NC State). Now the middle of the D is getting a boost twice, and adding in a weapon. No 4th. Two 5th rounders, I'll pick another fundamentally sound ILB with Genard Avery(Mem) or Kenny Young(UCLA) and an OG in Wyatt Teller(VT). Let 6 and 7 play out.

If something close to this draft scenario happens, release Bell from the tag, cut Mitchell, and offer your ransom to a vet ILB, and SS to come in and start while the pups learn. I do not know the FA names as well as others but I would settle for Gerald Hodges(Saints) and Tre Boston(Chargers).

I see this option as more of a compromise/retool option. #1 You take away Ben's confidence in his RB and replace with 2 rookies(Conner only has 32 snaps) and this defense just became even more unknown than it is now. But hopefully better. Now, if wishes were indeed horses.

pczach
02-18-2018, 05:47 PM
You're most likely correct and Conner isnt as bad as I fear. But would everyone think as positively of him if he wasn't an underdog story and from Pitt?


I can't really speak for everyone else, but I know I liked him as a player before his cancer became the story. I love the story of courage and character as well, but I don't think I'm letting it cloud my judgement of his ability on the field.

Mojouw
02-18-2018, 05:54 PM
On the RB draft front, I could see offering Bell the 2018 franchise tag. Take Rashaan Evans(Bama) at 28(because we all know that's where he's going), spend our round 2 on a larger RB like Royce Freeman(OR) or Josh Adams(ND), have our Bettis 2.0 to pair with Conner(or replace Conner on the DC). 3rd round is going to get tricky now. All of the top ranked Safeties, DBs, and LBs will be gone by now. Here we take a true blue, dyed in the wool NT, maybe B.J. Hill(NC State). Now the middle of the D is getting a boost twice, and adding in a weapon. No 4th. Two 5th rounders, I'll pick another fundamentally sound ILB with Genard Avery(Mem) or Kenny Young(UCLA) and an OG in Wyatt Teller(VT). Let 6 and 7 play out.

If something close to this draft scenario happens, release Bell from the tag, cut Mitchell, and offer your ransom to a vet ILB, and SS to come in and start while the pups learn. I do not know the FA names as well as others but I would settle for Gerald Hodges(Saints) and Tre Boston(Chargers).

I see this option as more of a compromise/retool option. #1 You take away Ben's confidence in his RB and replace with 2 rookies(Conner only has 32 snaps) and this defense just became even more unknown than it is now. But hopefully better. Now, if wishes were indeed horses.

That might work. I would prefer Kerryon Johnson or Jaylen Samuels because of their ability to play a similar role to Bell. Not that Bell is the only way to be a RB in the NFL, but it would potentially "change" less in the offense. One would go at the top of the draft and one would go in the middle.

Born2Steel
02-18-2018, 06:05 PM
That might work. I would prefer Kerryon Johnson or Jaylen Samuels because of their ability to play a similar role to Bell. Not that Bell is the only way to be a RB in the NFL, but it would potentially "change" less in the offense. One would go at the top of the draft and one would go in the middle.

I really like Freeman if we draft a RB. My favorite of course is Ronald Jones, but I expect him to be gone by our 2nd round pick. I would rather not have to draft a RB at all, but if it comes to that, there are some promising RBs in this draft. The main downside, IMO, is I would love to spend those early rounds on more pressing needs, or at least on some uber-athletic beast player for the defense. But as the saying goes, "you can't have everything, where would you put it?".

GBMelBlount
02-18-2018, 06:21 PM
This is a GREAT thread with a lot of great posts.

Mojouw
02-18-2018, 06:31 PM
I really like Freeman if we draft a RB. My favorite of course is Ronald Jones, but I expect him to be gone by our 2nd round pick. I would rather not have to draft a RB at all, but if it comes to that, there are some promising RBs in this draft. The main downside, IMO, is I would love to spend those early rounds on more pressing needs, or at least on some uber-athletic beast player for the defense. But as the saying goes, "you can't have everything, where would you put it?".

I am putting almost ALL my draft picks on defense if I was in charge. I am hoping for something like the 2016's Falcons draft where Neal, Jones, and Campbell were all taken in the first 4 rounds for the Falcons and played a significant role in a championship defense.

The biggest downsides to paying Bell are not in 2018 - they are future concerns. As I see them they are of two primary categories - downturn in production and suspension. Franchise can write protections into the deal for both of those, at least from a financial sense. Make that one of the negotiating points with Bell and his camp. You want big money and long-term security? Fine, we need protections from financial disaster. The other major concern, at least as I am reading it is along the lines of "Bell is loudmouthed idiot and why in the world would anyone want to feed his giant ego and pay him more money than anyone else, can you imagine what his social media and mix tape will look like then?" and my answer to that is that almost all these guys are annoying idiots so at least Bell is talented idiot that shows up to play in big games.

Anyways, no idea who is right or who is wrong - actually don't think there is an "answer" -- I just like arguing on the internet.

DesertSteel
02-18-2018, 06:46 PM
I am not trying to prove that Bell should be kept. I am simply trying to prove that "Not Bell" is far from the simplified sunshine and rainbows scenario that seems to be floating around. Not paying Bell, and to be clear I think the Steelers should stick to their guns and only offer Bell a contract that they feel is a reasonable approximation of his value and has terms somewhat in favor of the franchise, has consequences. Those consequences may be good and they may be bad.

And if we are not winning by throwing money at offensive players, what is the logic in then turning around and drafting a RB in the first round?! Can't have your cake and eat it to guys.

I fully realize that if the Steelers sign Bell then no other big name/impact free agent is coming to town. From my personal "read" on the free agents available, I'm okay with that because I believe the Steelers can get better players at their "need" positions in the draft.

But the "don't pay Bell" camp seems to be betting the farm on Conner coming back and being average at worst. And/or spending a top 3 round pick on a RB (that's what it takes). So what position do you NOT want to improve through the draft on defense? ILB, FS/SS, OLB, DT? That's the choice if a #1 RB becomes a draft need. Is NOT having to select a RB and being able to get more playmakers on the defensive side of the ball worth part of Bell's contract $$$? I don't know. It might be.

Of course, none of this matters because the Steelers will take a guard, a long snapper, and a WR in the first 3 rounds anyways.

I've never been on record of taking a RB in the 1st round. I'd go ILB in 1 and RB in 2 or 3 depending what Safety was on the board in the 2nd. The idea with using the 2 or 3 pick to take a RB is that you can then use Bell's money for defense in free agency.

The whole point is that you can win the Super Bowl several different ways in the NFL. Letting Bell walk would be a loss - but not monumental IMO. There are good backs to be had in the draft and they come on the cheap for 4 years. I won't cry about it if they sign Bell, but I see advantages of tagging him instead or letting him walk if he's going to be a malcontent. It's not like we've won the Super Bowl in the past 5 years WITH him.

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You're most likely correct and Conner isnt as bad as I fear. But would everyone think as positively of him if he wasn't an underdog story and from Pitt?
Do you think that's why the Steelers spent a 3rd round pick on him?

Mojouw
02-18-2018, 06:52 PM
Do you think that's why the Steelers spent a 3rd round pick on him?

Of course not. They think he is going to be good NFL RB.

I don't see it, but I'm wrong all the time!

Mojouw
02-18-2018, 07:01 PM
Also, just so we can all start from the same place -- http://pfref.com/tiny/oBd0W

That is all of the RBs drafted in the last 5 years. Despite the ability to point to almost any round and point to a "success" or starting RB, the majorityimpact guys are coming off the board in the first 45-65 picks. And the majority of the lower round picks are not seeing any role in the NFL beyond that initial rookie contract.

So either the Steelers need to be confident in their ability to find a gem in a 4th round or lower player or they should be spending a 2018 first or second round pick on a RB if that rookie is ticketed for a starting role.

I would rather spend both the first and second round pick on defense. Like, Desert Steel said, more than one way to build a team. No one way is right, but my preference is to avoid drafting a RB.

Born2Steel
02-18-2018, 07:10 PM
I've never been on record of taking a RB in the 1st round. I'd go ILB in 1 and RB in 2 or 3 depending what Safety was on the board in the 2nd. The idea with using the 2 or 3 pick to take a RB is that you can then use Bell's money for defense in free agency.

The whole point is that you can win the Super Bowl several different ways in the NFL. Letting Bell walk would be a loss - but not monumental IMO. There are good backs to be had in the draft and they come on the cheap for 4 years. I won't cry about it if they sign Bell, but I see advantages of tagging him instead or letting him walk if he's going to be a malcontent. It's not like we've won the Super Bowl in the past 5 years WITH him.

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Do you think that's why the Steelers spent a 3rd round pick on him?

I have to say yes. I think the Steelers put a 3rd/4th round grade on Conner, and since there was a very real chance he was not going to be there in the 4th, they selected him where they did. Which was the 2nd of 2 late 3rd round picks BTW. The analysis for the Conner pick was that he was a perfect match to play WITH Bell. Haley didn't see it that way apparently, guess we shall see what Fichtner thinks. I really do think Conner is a better RB if sharing the backfield with Bell than as the bellcow back himself. Trying to stick with this thread topic though, if Bell is not there, is Conner and Nix going to be the tandem? Because as we sit here today, that is the roster. I keep hearing the RB has been devalued and you get great ones in the later rounds, yet every single draft there are RBs taken in the first round. That's a hell of a lot of value for a team to take you with their 1st pick of the draft. And they are all looking for what we already have, with Bell.

86WARD
02-18-2018, 07:41 PM
Signing Bell is a no brainer. He’s a Top-2 back in the league. He has the perfect skill set to compliment Ben and Brown. Without Bell, Ben’s passing will suffer immensely. Bell bailed Ben out man, many times...more so than a 3rd or 4th round draft pick or Stevan Ridley type of free agent would. He’s someone defenses have to account for...unlike many, many other backs in this league.

DesertSteel
02-18-2018, 10:23 PM
Of course not. They think he is going to be good NFL RB.

I don't see it, but I'm wrong all the time!
But that's the kind of stuff that it’s good to be wrong about :)

steelreserve
02-19-2018, 12:20 PM
Here's how I look at it: If we were trying to win a championship 3 or 4 years from now, then letting him go and finding a replacement would be the right move. However, since we are trying to win a championship RIGHT NOW and are a few pieces on defense away from doing that, letting go of Bell just 1) opens up another significant hole that you may or may not be able to fix quickly, and 2) takes away from our ability to shore up the defense.

If there was a clear choice in front of us, like the equivalent of Shazier or Polamalu was available in free agency but we could either keep Bell or sign that player, then it would be a tougher call (assuming we also had a decent plan for a new RB). But as far as I know, that kind of player isn't going to be available and our money would be better spent retaining a star player we already do have.

Finally, I'd say that if we manage to win a championship but overpay Bell in the process of doing that, it would be fine by me. Most likely it would cost us the ability to re-sign one of our own free agents heading into 2020. Maurkice Pouncey, Marcus Gilbert and Bud Dupree are scheduled to be free agents then; being unable to retain one of them would not be the end of the world. Joe Haden will also be a free agent; losing him would be less good but he may also be deteriorating talent-wise at that point. We will probably be drafting to replace one or more of them between now and then, so we may be able to actually do it without hurting ourselves too much.

Mojouw
02-19-2018, 12:23 PM
Here's how I look at it: If we were trying to win a championship 3 or 4 years from now, then letting him go and finding a replacement would be the right move. However, since we are trying to win a championship RIGHT NOW and are a few pieces on defense away from doing that, letting go of Bell just 1) opens up another significant hole that you may or may not be able to fix quickly, and 2) takes away from our ability to shore up the defense.

If there was a clear choice in front of us, like the equivalent of Shazier or Polamalu was available in free agency but we could either keep Bell or sign that player, then it would be a tougher call (assuming we also had a decent plan for a new RB). But as far as I know, that kind of player isn't going to be available and our money would be better spent retaining a star player we already do have.

Finally, I'd say that if we manage to win a championship but overpay Bell in the process of doing that, it would be fine by me. Most likely it would cost us the ability to re-sign one of our own free agents heading into 2020. Maurkice Pouncey, Marcus Gilbert and Bud Dupree are scheduled to be free agents then; being unable to retain one of them would not be the end of the world. Joe Haden will also be a free agent; losing him would be less good but he may also be deteriorating talent-wise at that point. We will probably be drafting to replace one or more of them between now and then, so we may be able to actually do it without hurting ourselves too much.

Good post. Couldn't agree more. Paying Bell doesn't have to mean that anyone is happy about giving a RB that much cash, but...

DesertSteel
02-19-2018, 07:43 PM
I think that as long as we win a championship that no one cares about how much Bell is paid. It's not like it's our money. That said, we haven't even made it to the Super Bowl in the five years of his prime.

Shoes
02-19-2018, 07:58 PM
I think that as long as we win a championship that no one cares about how much Bell is paid. It's not like it's our money. That said, we haven't even made it to the Super Bowl in the five years of his prime.


:lol:

Mojouw
02-19-2018, 10:24 PM
I feel like there just needs to be a constant reminder that correlation and causation are totally different things.

I know slot of it is joking around but still.

I mean no one on the team has been mauled by a tiger while Bell has been on the roster. Clearly he repels tigers. How many starters and key backups get eaten by tigers once Bell is let go?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mojouw
02-20-2018, 09:22 AM
Isn't today tag day? Anyone hear anything yet?

DesertSteel
02-20-2018, 09:43 AM
I feel like there just needs to be a constant reminder that correlation and causation are totally different things.

I know slot of it is joking around but still.

I mean no one on the team has been mauled by a tiger while Bell has been on the roster. Clearly he repels tigers. How many starters and key backups get eaten by tigers once Bell is let go?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I get what you're saying but I don't really understand your point. Folks clamor that we aren't going to win the Super Bowl if we let Bell go. It's a fair point that we have never won the Super Bowl with him. And at this stage of his career, I don't see him getting better. His splash plays were way down in 2017. I think that there's a reason that almost all of the beat writers for the Steelers hold the opinion that the money could be better spent elsewhere.

Mojouw
02-20-2018, 10:00 AM
I get what you're saying but I don't really understand your point. Folks clamor that we aren't going to win the Super Bowl if we let Bell go. It's a fair point that we have never won the Super Bowl with him. And at this stage of his career, I don't see him getting better. His splash plays were way down in 2017. I think that there's a reason that almost all of the beat writers for the Steelers hold the opinion that the money could be better spent elsewhere.

1. Winning or not winning the SB is impossible to directly tie to Bell as the reason/cause either way. I have not been arguing that L. Bell + Steelers = SB.
2. The only thing we can tie together is that IF Bell is released, the Steelers have a hole at RB on their roster. This hole will require a combination of cap resources and draft picks to fill. Likely high draft picks. When you are attempting to put together a complete roster with limited resources, it seems dubious at best to open more holes.
3. My opinion of the beat writers for the Steelers is well known. They are correct as often as broken clocks and for similar reasons. They are almost universally lazy, grumpy, and wildly speculative. Honestly don't think they are much better than several bloggers and most of the posters on here.

Neversatisfied
02-20-2018, 10:05 AM
I don't think the team would be close to a SB even if the team signs Bell long term. The culture of the locker room is more in line with a hard knocks TV show than a disciplined SB contender. Coaching has to do a 180 before the Steelers get back to the Superbowl. This team is brimming with talent but it's overrun with immature behavior and smugness. The current Steeler organization is completely different than just 10 years ago and it hasn't changed for the better. Sign Bell to a contract of his liking and your giving in to his selfendulged attitude, does the team improve? Possibly but his attitude is toxic. Let him walk and the Steelers are now burdened with replacing his immediately.

Born2Steel
02-20-2018, 10:52 AM
Right now, today, there is only one glaring hole on this team and it is at ILB. Releasing players just because WE think they make too much money, and creating more holes in the process, is a dumb idea. Our FO seems to know what they're doing. Bell will get a long term offer. If he refuses it, he will get franchise tagged. Most likely that means a RB will be selected early in this draft, rounds 1 or 2, if a targeted guy is there. Then the tag will most likely be pulled and we head into the season with 2 rookies(Conner has 32 snaps), Nix, and possibly Ridley or another FA. So, as you can see, this would play out exactly as Mojouw predicts if Bell is not signed long term. A FA signing at RB plus a draft pick spent at RB. Those 'resources' could better be spent on the existing glaring hole rather than on one WE create. Now we solve the RB issue, but we still have an issue at ILB.

DesertSteel
02-20-2018, 11:17 AM
1. Winning or not winning the SB is impossible to directly tie to Bell as the reason/cause either way. I have not been arguing that L. Bell + Steelers = SB.
2. The only thing we can tie together is that IF Bell is released, the Steelers have a hole at RB on their roster. This hole will require a combination of cap resources and draft picks to fill. Likely high draft picks. When you are attempting to put together a complete roster with limited resources, it seems dubious at best to open more holes.
3. My opinion of the beat writers for the Steelers is well known. They are correct as often as broken clocks and for similar reasons. They are almost universally lazy, grumpy, and wildly speculative. Honestly don't think they are much better than several bloggers and most of the posters on here.
But your premise regarding holes seems to leave out or dismiss the notion that the $13-15 a year cap hit can be used to fill more glaring holes that did lead to a failure in the playoffs.

steelreserve
02-20-2018, 11:21 AM
Right now, today, there is only one glaring hole on this team and it is at ILB. Releasing players just because WE think they make too much money, and creating more holes in the process, is a dumb idea. Our FO seems to know what they're doing. Bell will get a long term offer. If he refuses it, he will get franchise tagged. Most likely that means a RB will be selected early in this draft, rounds 1 or 2, if a targeted guy is there. Then the tag will most likely be pulled and we head into the season with 2 rookies(Conner has 32 snaps), Nix, and possibly Ridley or another FA. So, as you can see, this would play out exactly as Mojouw predicts if Bell is not signed long term. A FA signing at RB plus a draft pick spent at RB. Those 'resources' could better be spent on the existing glaring hole rather than on one WE create. Now we solve the RB issue, but we still have an issue at ILB.

I would agree with this except for the tag being pulled. Given the progression of the offseason (be under salary cap -> free agency -> draft) there would be no point in drafting a replacement and then revoking the tag, because we'd have to be under the cap WITH the franchise tag already. So might as well let him play out the year, because a briefcase full of $17 million isn't going to gain any yards, and all the big free agents will be long gone by the draft.

Even if he's a dickhead like last year and sits out the entire preseason, by the end of the year we'll be glad we have him as far as trying to win playoff games goes. I don't think he'll do that again though, now that everyone saw the results. It almost certainly cost him a rushing title, as well as the outright title of best RB in the game, and both of those are worth big $$$$ elsewhere if your main goal is getting ♫♫ PAAAIIIIIYYYYYYED ♫♫

Mojouw
02-20-2018, 11:23 AM
But your premise regarding holes seems to leave out or dismiss the notion that the $13-15 a year cap hit can’t be used to fill more glaring holes that did lead to a failure in the playoffs.

No, it doesn't. I have advanced the argument (and again I fully realize this is solely an opinion) that there is adequate cap space to do both. Or at the very least cap space can be created that allows the team to do both.

Additionally, I have also argued (again totally my own opinion and not a fact) that the free agent options at ILB, Safety, and WR are not better than what can be obtained via the draft.

Bottom line, if I have choose, I would spend the cap space on the RB and the draft resources on the defense. Again, totally my opinion.

DesertSteel
02-20-2018, 11:29 AM
Bottom line, if I have choose, I would spend the cap space on the RB and the draft resources on the defense. Again, totally my opinion.
I think I’d go the other way. The chances of hitting a homerun at RB in the draft (2nd-3rd) are much greater than via FA, especially considering price and mileage.

I’d take my starting ILB in R1 and a Safety to compete with Sutton in R3. Free agency would mostly be for depth.

Born2Steel
02-20-2018, 11:42 AM
But your premise regarding holes seems to leave out or dismiss the notion that the $13-15 a year cap hit can be used to fill more glaring holes that did lead to a failure in the playoffs.

This is true. And by that same rationale we could say that Haden is diminishing with age. Haden takes quite the cap hit as well. Plus, we already have Burns, Sutton, and Hilton, with Gay as the veteran leader. Cutting Haden would free up cap space without creating another hole. But the argument has been that Bell doesn't deserve a long term because he wants it? He has used social media in ways that some/most don't agree with? What I do not understand is the focus on Bell's money being the only money we can use to fix other things. There are restructures going on right now to hopefully fix things on this team. Creating new problems with new holes at RB is not fixing anything. It creates just as big a hole as it fills. That is how I see it anyway.
1. Cutting JH had to be done at the time to make a spot for Gilbert's return. IMO, that created a hole at the OLB position, as in now we must get another edge rusher. Unless 7th round pick Adams makes the 53 this year.
2. Safety is not so much a hole as much as NEEDS to get an upgrade bad. Hopefully FA money is used to bring in that upgrade. If not, it's an early draft pick need.
3. ILB is going to need to get 2 new players. Unless we find another sideline to sideline guy to replace Shaz, and I do not see him on the FA list. So, looks like multiple draft picks, 2 of which need to produce this season.

By my count, this list equals 3-4 early draft picks that we already need to score on. Adding a RB to do what Bell already does to that 'needs' list is bad business. No we don't hamstring the future, but we have to exhaust every option to retain Bell first. Let that play out, THEN we can have a rational conversation about replacing him. For now it's just emotional response to his "antics".

Born2Steel
02-20-2018, 11:48 AM
I would agree with this except for the tag being pulled. Given the progression of the offseason (be under salary cap -> free agency -> draft) there would be no point in drafting a replacement and then revoking the tag, because we'd have to be under the cap WITH the franchise tag already. So might as well let him play out the year, because a briefcase full of $17 million isn't going to gain any yards, and all the big free agents will be long gone by the draft.

Even if he's a dickhead like last year and sits out the entire preseason, by the end of the year we'll be glad we have him as far as trying to win playoff games goes. I don't think he'll do that again though, now that everyone saw the results. It almost certainly cost him a rushing title, as well as the outright title of best RB in the game, and both of those are worth big $$$$ elsewhere if your main goal is getting ♫♫ PAAAIIIIIYYYYYYED ♫♫

Getting FAs after the draft happens every year. It was suggested to use the Bell money to do that. I was only speculating(I'm not in the FO) that can be done just as easily from both sides of the draft. We will not grab one of the most expensive guys either way. That's not how we usually do things anyway.

Mojouw
02-20-2018, 11:55 AM
This is true. And by that same rationale we could say that Haden is diminishing with age. Haden takes quite the cap hit as well. Plus, we already have Burns, Sutton, and Hilton, with Gay as the veteran leader. Cutting Haden would free up cap space without creating another hole. But the argument has been that Bell doesn't deserve a long term because he wants it? He has used social media in ways that some/most don't agree with? What I do not understand is the focus on Bell's money being the only money we can use to fix other things. There are restructures going on right now to hopefully fix things on this team. Creating new problems with new holes at RB is not fixing anything. It creates just as big a hole as it fills. That is how I see it anyway.
1. Cutting JH had to be done at the time to make a spot for Gilbert's return. IMO, that created a hole at the OLB position, as in now we must get another edge rusher. Unless 7th round pick Adams makes the 53 this year.
2. Safety is not so much a hole as much as NEEDS to get an upgrade bad. Hopefully FA money is used to bring in that upgrade. If not, it's an early draft pick need.
3. ILB is going to need to get 2 new players. Unless we find another sideline to sideline guy to replace Shaz, and I do not see him on the FA list. So, looks like multiple draft picks, 2 of which need to produce this season.

By my count, this list equals 3-4 early draft picks that we already need to score on. Adding a RB to do what Bell already does to that 'needs' list is bad business. No we don't hamstring the future, but we have to exhaust every option to retain Bell first. Let that play out, THEN we can have a rational conversation about replacing him. For now it's just emotional response to his "antics".

Excellent points. I have hesitated to raise the point, because I suspect that NO ONE will agree with me, but Haden isn't an $11 million dollar a year CB anymore. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/cornerback/ - everyone on that list making Haden level dollars creates turnovers and simply eliminates the oppositions #1 target. While Haden is still a quality player and belongs as a starter in the NFL, he isn't a top tier CB anymore according to raw stats.

So why is not paying Bell a good idea but paying Haden is? FWIW, I would prefer Haden on the 2018 roster, but every argument against signing Bell (except "knucklehead") can be leveled at Haden. So what is the going rate for leadership?

86WARD
02-20-2018, 11:57 AM
Right now, today, there is only one glaring hole on this team and it is at ILB. Releasing players just because WE think they make too much money, and creating more holes in the process, is a dumb idea. Our FO seems to know what they're doing. Bell will get a long term offer. If he refuses it, he will get franchise tagged. Most likely that means a RB will be selected early in this draft, rounds 1 or 2, if a targeted guy is there. Then the tag will most likely be pulled and we head into the season with 2 rookies(Conner has 32 snaps), Nix, and possibly Ridley or another FA. So, as you can see, this would play out exactly as Mojouw predicts if Bell is not signed long term. A FA signing at RB plus a draft pick spent at RB. Those 'resources' could better be spent on the existing glaring hole rather than on one WE create. Now we solve the RB issue, but we still have an issue at ILB.

If you think ILB is the only glaring hole on the roster (which is your opinion and not necessarily wrong), then the team, in my mind, would be in excellent condition. ILB has pretty much become the FB of the defense. Probably the least important position on the defensive side of the ball in this day and age. If you have a decent DL, OLBs that can rush and a couple good corners, you can get away with sticking a couple “no names” in at ILB and make it work...hell, a lot of GMs do that now. If you have one ILB that is okay at covering in space with what you have mentioned above, you have a great defense. DL, OLB, 3 CB all tank as priority above an ILB...

86WARD
02-20-2018, 11:58 AM
Getting FAs after the draft happens every year. It was suggested to use the Bell money to do that. I was only speculating(I'm not in the FO) that can be done just as easily from both sides of the draft. We will not grab one of the most expensive guys either way. That's not how we usually do things anyway.

So a Doug Martin type (released today) and a 3rd round RB would be suitable to replace Bell and his production?

DesertSteel
02-20-2018, 12:02 PM
Bell’s antics are probably no worse than AB’s but I don’t hear anyone pushing for his release or saying he isn’t worth the money. Some knowledgeable folks have thought it all out and believe that Bell is not worth a long term contract at his numbers.

Mojouw
02-20-2018, 12:04 PM
If you think ILB is the only glaring hole on the roster (which is your opinion and not necessarily wrong), then the team, in my mind, would be in excellent condition. ILB has pretty much become the FB of the defense. Probably the least important position on the defensive side of the ball in this day and age. If you have a decent DL, OLBs that can rush and a couple good corners, you can get away with sticking a couple “no names” in at ILB and make it work...hell, a lot of GMs do that now. If you have one ILB that is okay at covering in space with what you have mentioned above, you have a great defense. DL, OLB, 3 CB all tank as priority above an ILB...

I couldn't disagree more. Every high end defensive unit has been focused on ILB/MLB for several years now. The player doesn't have to have name recognition or a draft pedigree, but they must be able to fill a specific role of ranging sideline to sideline and making plays in space while fulfilling the traditional duties of run stopping.

Recent Denver teams have gotten really good ILB play. Ravens and Steelers built around Mosley and Shazier respectively. Seahawks demonstrated this season how important Wagner and Wright were to their defense. The Jags have excellent 'backers. Finally, the lack of LBs may have been on of the biggest factors in the Pats losing the SB.

Looking at the college level (and I don't really watch a bunch of college ball but I read things by people who do) it seems that smaller, athletic, agile LBs are being used as cornerstones in stopping spread offenses.

86WARD
02-20-2018, 12:42 PM
I would have to disagree. Don’t get me wrong, Id overpay for Shazier when healthy, he’ll, even now I would...However, while it’s nice to have a Mosely or Shazier if you have the cap space, it’s not necessary in this day and age...especially to have a second one. I’d much rather spend money on a quality third starting CB and decent ILB than empty the bank on a star ILB and a lackluster Ross Cockrell type nickelback. With teams having a 3WR base offense in today’s game, that 3rd CB plays a very large part. For the Seahawks, Wright was an OLb...No? For all your examples, you can list the same that’s not so successful with a great MLB: Tampa, KC, Etc...they have great MLBs but they werent all that successful. Even the Tavens with Mosely weren’t that stellar.

Im just saying it’s not nearly as important as it once was and if that’s the only glaring need, it’s not a huge one...

Mojouw
02-20-2018, 01:20 PM
I would have to disagree. Don’t get me wrong, Id overpay for Shazier when healthy, he’ll, even now I would...However, while it’s nice to have a Mosely or Shazier if you have the cap space, it’s not necessary in this day and age...especially to have a second one. I’d much rather spend money on a quality third starting CB and decent ILB than empty the bank on a star ILB and a lackluster Ross Cockrell type nickelback. With teams having a 3WR base offense in today’s game, that 3rd CB plays a very large part. For the Seahawks, Wright was an OLb...No? For all your examples, you can list the same that’s not so successful with a great MLB: Tampa, KC, Etc...they have great MLBs but they werent all that successful. Even the Tavens with Mosely weren’t that stellar.

Im just saying it’s not nearly as important as it once was and if that’s the only glaring need, it’s not a huge one...

I agree on not emptying the bank. That's kinda what I meant by "filling the role". You need someone who can do the job and they don't have to be a 10 million dollar a year star. Right now the Steelers don't have anyone who can do the job.

Agreed on the multiple DBs thing - super important.

Interesting debate can be had on pass rushing. It is also critical to defensive success, but where does it come from? Solely off the edge? Individuals? Scheme? Steelers seem to be trying to figure that out on the fly.

All I know for sure is that one of the major reasons, if not the reason that the Steelers went out in the playoffs was below the line play at ILB. So, for me, that is priority #1 and #2 this offseason. A starter and some real depth need brought in at the position.

steelreserve
02-20-2018, 01:27 PM
Getting FAs after the draft happens every year. It was suggested to use the Bell money to do that. I was only speculating(I'm not in the FO) that can be done just as easily from both sides of the draft. We will not grab one of the most expensive guys either way. That's not how we usually do things anyway.

You can find free agents after that, like with training camp cuts, but you don't know who they're going to be and it's rare to get an impact player at the position you want (Haden was a remarkable exception). All the big-time FAs and most of the mid-level ones are gone in the first few weeks, so there's a good chance we'd be standing around in May with $17 million cap space and our dicks in our hands with nothing worth spending it on. So in that respect it's not just as easy. Might as well just keep the guy for a year at that point.



I would have to disagree. Don’t get me wrong, Id overpay for Shazier when healthy, he’ll, even now I would...However, while it’s nice to have a Mosely or Shazier if you have the cap space, it’s not necessary in this day and age...especially to have a second one. I’d much rather spend money on a quality third starting CB and decent ILB than empty the bank on a star ILB and a lackluster Ross Cockrell type nickelback. With teams having a 3WR base offense in today’s game, that 3rd CB plays a very large part. For the Seahawks, Wright was an OLb...No? For all your examples, you can list the same that’s not so successful with a great MLB: Tampa, KC, Etc...they have great MLBs but they werent all that successful. Even the Tavens with Mosely weren’t that stellar.

Im just saying it’s not nearly as important as it once was and if that’s the only glaring need, it’s not a huge one...

I think we saw at the end of last season what happens when you just plug a couple of randos in at ILB and hope for the best. You don't need all of your linebackers to be stars, but you need at least one ILB with the skill to cover the underneath stuff from TEs and running backs or you will get your shit ruined, and you need the mobility to deal with stuff laterally to the outside. Especially in a 3-4; you can't have two guys in the middle of the field who are just OK. It's like having a big sign taped to your back that says "Fist me, Tom!" Or any other halfway decent QB for that matter.

Born2Steel
02-20-2018, 06:00 PM
If you think ILB is the only glaring hole on the roster (which is your opinion and not necessarily wrong), then the team, in my mind, would be in excellent condition. ILB has pretty much become the FB of the defense. Probably the least important position on the defensive side of the ball in this day and age. If you have a decent DL, OLBs that can rush and a couple good corners, you can get away with sticking a couple “no names” in at ILB and make it work...hell, a lot of GMs do that now. If you have one ILB that is okay at covering in space with what you have mentioned above, you have a great defense. DL, OLB, 3 CB all tank as priority above an ILB...

That is exactly how I see this defense. DL is very good. OLBs are good, need depth. CBs are very good. Safeties are ok, need an upgrade. ILBs are completely missing. Not sure how you grade out this defense, but that is how I see it, yes.

Born2Steel
02-20-2018, 06:05 PM
So a Doug Martin type (released today) and a 3rd round RB would be suitable to replace Bell and his production?

I have no idea what you mean by "Doug Martin type". Plus I specifically said "rounds 1 or 2", so how did you get "3rd round RB"? I have posted on here many times I do not believe any 1 RB is going to come in here and do what Bell does, out of the gate. If it's a move to a tandem backfield, that's a different discussion all together. Rather than cherry pick a post, read the *whole* discussion and enter with some knowledge of the actual conversation and the context of the posts. It will make more sense that way.

Born2Steel
02-20-2018, 06:11 PM
You can find free agents after that, like with training camp cuts, but you don't know who they're going to be and it's rare to get an impact player at the position you want (Haden was a remarkable exception). All the big-time FAs and most of the mid-level ones are gone in the first few weeks, so there's a good chance we'd be standing around in May with $17 million cap space and our dicks in our hands with nothing worth spending it on. So in that respect it's not just as easy. Might as well just keep the guy for a year at that point.




I think we saw at the end of last season what happens when you just plug a couple of randos in at ILB and hope for the best. You don't need all of your linebackers to be stars, but you need at least one ILB with the skill to cover the underneath stuff from TEs and running backs or you will get your shit ruined, and you need the mobility to deal with stuff laterally to the outside. Especially in a 3-4; you can't have two guys in the middle of the field who are just OK. It's like having a big sign taped to your back that says "Fist me, Tom!" Or any other halfway decent QB for that matter.

That is a very real result that can happen as well. This is why I put in the part about "if our targeted guy is there". You take risks with players every year. If the FO does not think they have a suitable replacement then Bell stays. If they believe they drafted their guy, THEN let Bell walk, and if you're standing there with "$17M and your dick in your hand", what's the problem?

steelreserve
02-20-2018, 06:49 PM
That is a very real result that can happen as well. This is why I put in the part about "if our targeted guy is there". You take risks with players every year. If the FO does not think they have a suitable replacement then Bell stays. If they believe they drafted their guy, THEN let Bell walk, and if you're standing there with "$17M and your dick in your hand", what's the problem?

The problem would be that we let Bell walk for no real reason, since we had the money. Then if anything at all goes wrong with the new guy - from injury, to just not being as good - we'll wish we hadn't cut Bell loose just so we could stare at a pile of money. Exposing ourselves to unnecessary risk with no payoff, basically.

Shoes
02-20-2018, 07:06 PM
https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/What-it-will-cost-Pittsburgh-Steelers-to-sign-New-England-Patriots-Dion-Lewis-115346881

:stirthepot:

86WARD
02-20-2018, 07:32 PM
I have no idea what you mean by "Doug Martin type". Plus I specifically said "rounds 1 or 2", so how did you get "3rd round RB"? I have posted on here many times I do not believe any 1 RB is going to come in here and do what Bell does, out of the gate. If it's a move to a tandem backfield, that's a different discussion all together. Rather than cherry pick a post, read the *whole* discussion and enter with some knowledge of the actual conversation and the context of the posts. It will make more sense that way.

Lol. First, Doug Martin Type = below average veteran back, because really that’s all that would be available. Secondly, there’s way too many holes on the defense to waste a first or second round pick on a RB. If you think that a draft pick and below average veteran are replacing Bell and his production, you’re living a pipe dream. No need to cherry pick the thread as you say...lol. It’s just not a realistic thought. Easily one of the best backs in the league...you don’t hope to replace that with what you are suggesting.

No need to get all snippy about it...lol.

steelreserve
02-20-2018, 07:35 PM
https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/What-it-will-cost-Pittsburgh-Steelers-to-sign-New-England-Patriots-Dion-Lewis-115346881

:stirthepot:


"Fist me, Tom!"

I'll be fine if we pass.

lipps83
02-20-2018, 07:46 PM
The problem would be that we let Bell walk for no real reason, since we had the money. Then if anything at all goes wrong with the new guy - from injury, to just not being as good - we'll wish we hadn't cut Bell loose just so we could stare at a pile of money. Exposing ourselves to unnecessary risk with no payoff, basically.

This makes no sense and is not much of a justification to keeping Bell. There is risk no matter who you sign. What if they sign Bell and he gets hurt or continues to regress like this past year and is not as good, then what? A bunch of wasted money down the drain AND they lost out on someone they were targeting.

If anything, there is less risk (and less money involved, which actually is important) in signing a player on the upswing that doesn't have an injury history. That is just the opposite of Bell, a slowly regressing player with an injury history.

Shoes
02-20-2018, 07:58 PM
If the Steelers & Bell can't come to an agreement can the Steelers trade him?

Mojouw
02-20-2018, 08:26 PM
This makes no sense and is not much of a justification to keeping Bell. There is risk no matter who you sign. What if they sign Bell and he gets hurt or continues to regress like this past year and is not as good, then what? A bunch of wasted money down the drain AND they lost out on someone they were targeting.

If anything, there is less risk (and less money involved, which actually is important) in signing a player on the upswing that doesn't have an injury history. That is just the opposite of Bell, a slowly regressing player with an injury history.

So who is this young RB on the upswing that is just chilling out in free agency?

You can Google the list as well as anyone else. Put name to this vague assertion.

I believe this is what Born2steel has been asking for for months.

AtlantaDan
02-20-2018, 08:41 PM
If the Steelers & Bell can't come to an agreement can the Steelers trade him?

A player cannot be traded until he signs the tag and the team has some rights to trade

This article on Washington's threat to tag Kirk Cousins (apparently out of spite since Alex Smith is headed to Washington) walks through the scenario of trying to trade a tagged player and concludes it most likely would be a disaster

A franchise-tagged player can be traded and teams can work out any compensation they like; they can deviate from the two first-round draft picks that a franchise-tagged player’s new team must give to his previous team if the player is signed to an offer sheet not matched by his previous team. So it might be tempting for the Redskins to take the tag-and-trade approach with Cousins. The idea would be to get back more for Cousins that the compensatory draft pick in 2019 (possibly a third-rounder) that would result from him leaving in free agency....

But the potential problems with that strategy could outweigh the prospective benefits.


First, there is the prospect that Cousins and his representatives could file a grievance alleging that the Redskins would be in violation of the CBA if they tag Cousins to trade him. The CBA says that a team which extends a tender offer to a player, as with a franchise-player deal, must negotiate with that player in good faith....


It’s unlikely a team would want to trade for Cousins — and give up something meaningful in exchange for him — and then merely inherit his one-year, $34.5 million deal. That would be cumbersome to the new team’s salary cap and would provide no guarantee that Cousins would be more than a one-year rental player. Any team trading for Cousins almost certainly would want him to agree to a new contract as part of the deal.
But why would Cousins do that? Why would he cooperate to facilitate a tag-and-trade approach by the Redskins? He would be better off being on the free agent market.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2018/02/20/the-risks-far-outweigh-the-potential-rewards-if-redskins-franchise-tag-kirk-cousins/?utm_term=.106fae514e9b

Born2Steel
02-20-2018, 08:54 PM
Lol. First, Doug Martin Type = below average veteran back, because really that’s all that would be available. Secondly, there’s way too many holes on the defense to waste a first or second round pick on a RB. If you think that a draft pick and below average veteran are replacing Bell and his production, you’re living a pipe dream. No need to cherry pick the thread as you say...lol. It’s just not a realistic thought. Easily one of the best backs in the league...you don’t hope to replace that with what you are suggesting.

No need to get all snippy about it...lol.

The REAL LOL here is that you think that's my argument. It's the EXACT OPPOSITE.

What you posted there is the same thing I have been saying since we started this offseason.

lipps83
02-20-2018, 08:55 PM
So who is this young RB on the upswing that is just chilling out in free agency?

You can Google the list as well as anyone else. Put name to this vague assertion.

I believe this is what Born2steel has been asking for for months.

Bell is irreplaceable so why should the front office even try? The team obviously can't move forward without him. A season without a star running back? How could football go on without Bell? What happens when he retires? Should the franchise fold without Bell?

Has a team ever moved forward without a star player before in sports? I can't recall.

This is a first.

How did the Eagles win a super bowl without Bell, or even a star back? If they can't do it, the Steelers for sure can't.
Or the Patriots
Broncos

How did they win without Bell? How is that possible?

THERE ARE NO OPTIONS WHATSOEVER OUTSIDE OF BELL SO DON'T LOOK

This team can't win without Bell. It's impossible.

Shoes
02-20-2018, 09:05 PM
A player cannot be traded until he signs the tag and the team has some rights to trade

This article on Washington's threat to tag Kirk Cousins (apparently out of spite since Alex Smith is headed to Washington) walks through the scenario of trying to trade a tagged player and concludes it most likely would be a disaster

A franchise-tagged player can be traded and teams can work out any compensation they like; they can deviate from the two first-round draft picks that a franchise-tagged player’s new team must give to his previous team if the player is signed to an offer sheet not matched by his previous team. So it might be tempting for the Redskins to take the tag-and-trade approach with Cousins. The idea would be to get back more for Cousins that the compensatory draft pick in 2019 (possibly a third-rounder) that would result from him leaving in free agency....

But the potential problems with that strategy could outweigh the prospective benefits.


First, there is the prospect that Cousins and his representatives could file a grievance alleging that the Redskins would be in violation of the CBA if they tag Cousins to trade him. The CBA says that a team which extends a tender offer to a player, as with a franchise-player deal, must negotiate with that player in good faith....


It’s unlikely a team would want to trade for Cousins — and give up something meaningful in exchange for him — and then merely inherit his one-year, $34.5 million deal. That would be cumbersome to the new team’s salary cap and would provide no guarantee that Cousins would be more than a one-year rental player. Any team trading for Cousins almost certainly would want him to agree to a new contract as part of the deal.
But why would Cousins do that? Why would he cooperate to facilitate a tag-and-trade approach by the Redskins? He would be better off being on the free agent market.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2018/02/20/the-risks-far-outweigh-the-potential-rewards-if-redskins-franchise-tag-kirk-cousins/?utm_term=.106fae514e9b

Thanks for the info :thumbsup:

DesertSteel
02-20-2018, 09:06 PM
So who is this young RB on the upswing that is just chilling out in free agency?

You can Google the list as well as anyone else. Put name to this vague assertion.

I believe this is what Born2steel has been asking for for months.
There ain’t one. He’s in the draft.

Born2Steel
02-20-2018, 09:32 PM
With the problems this team has in the middle of this defense, do you guys honestly think spending a 1st or 2nd round pick on a RB is a smart move? At best, at the very best, he becomes what Bell already is.

steelreserve
02-20-2018, 09:32 PM
This makes no sense and is not much of a justification to keeping Bell. There is risk no matter who you sign. What if they sign Bell and he gets hurt or continues to regress like this past year and is not as good, then what? A bunch of wasted money down the drain AND they lost out on someone they were targeting.

If anything, there is less risk (and less money involved, which actually is important) in signing a player on the upswing that doesn't have an injury history. That is just the opposite of Bell, a slowly regressing player with an injury history.

What are you talking about? The original situation given was tag Bell, draft a replacement RB, then revoke the tag and let Bell walk. In other words:

1. Reserve $17 million in cap space for Bell

2. Let the lion's share of free agents come and go without having any cap space

3. Draft a running back

4. Let Bell go

5. Sit there with $17 million in cap space that you can't spend and a worse RB situation than when you started.

On what planet made entirely of crack cocaine does that make sense? If you tag Bell, you're committing to not using $17M for anything else, so you might as well get something out of it. Draft a running back too, or don't, it doesn't matter which - if you have the cap space reserved all the way through the draft, you're not getting anything better for your $17 million than Bell, so releasing him just means you're hurting yourself.

If they're committed to finding a replacement, then fine, but either don't tag him and spend the money on something else, or tag him and keep him for a year. Don't carry the vacant cap space and get no player; that's just stupid.

Mojouw
02-20-2018, 09:40 PM
Bell is irreplaceable so why should the front office even try? The team obviously can't move forward without him. A season without a star running back? How could football go on without Bell? What happens when he retires? Should the franchise fold without Bell?

Has a team ever moved forward without a star player before in sports? I can't recall.

This is a first.

How did the Eagles win a super bowl without Bell, or even a star back? If they can't do it, the Steelers for sure can't.
Or the Patriots
Broncos

How did they win without Bell? How is that possible?

THERE ARE NO OPTIONS WHATSOEVER OUTSIDE OF BELL SO DON'T LOOK

This team can't win without Bell. It's impossible.

So no one but you is saying any of that. All some are asking is if not Bell, then who? Like throw an actual option out there.

Or you could just keep saying vague thins like young back on the rise or draft pick.

Cool. Cool.

What about this instead:

Resign Ridley.
Bet on Conner's health.
Throw 4 million at CJ Anderson to come ride shotgun

There's two run first guys and a pass catching back.

Now we can have an actual conversation. With like information and ideas and stuff.

Or we can go your way.

Hawkman
02-20-2018, 09:46 PM
Bell is irreplaceable so why should the front office even try? The team obviously can't move forward without him. A season without a star running back? How could football go on without Bell? What happens when he retires? Should the franchise fold without Bell?

Has a team ever moved forward without a star player before in sports? I can't recall.

This is a first.

How did the Eagles win a super bowl without Bell, or even a star back? If they can't do it, the Steelers for sure can't.
Or the Patriots
Broncos

How did they win without Bell? How is that possible?

THERE ARE NO OPTIONS WHATSOEVER OUTSIDE OF BELL SO DON'T LOOK

This team can't win without Bell. It's impossible.

Making some nice contributions tonight, aren’t you?

Born2Steel
02-20-2018, 09:53 PM
So no one but you is saying any of that. All some are asking is if not Bell, then who? Like throw an actual option out there.

Or you could just keep saying vague thins like young back on the rise or draft pick.

Cool. Cool.

What about this instead:

Resign Ridley.
Bet on Conner's health.
Throw 4 million at CJ Anderson to come ride shotgun

There's two run first guys and a pass catching back.

Now we can have an actual conversation. With like information and ideas and stuff.

Or we can go your way.

I think I get it now, but I admit to being a bit slow at times. You MUST use vague terms such as 'draft a guy', otherwise your entire point becomes something else all together. This entire day's discussion stems from ME( never again) using an option(other than the one I've been saying all along) to explain why a long term deal with Bell is the best solution. That actually resulted in creating conversations on why that's a bad option(SteelReserve), why we could never replace Bell's production with a draft pick(86Ward), and whether or not the league could exist without Bell on the roster(Lipps). Just amazing really.

steelreserve
02-20-2018, 10:02 PM
I think I get it now, but I admit to being a bit slow at times. You MUST use vague terms such as 'draft a guy', otherwise your entire point becomes something else all together. This entire day's discussion stems from ME( never again) using an option(other than the one I've been saying all along) to explain why a long term deal with Bell is the best solution. That actually resulted in creating conversations on why that's a bad option(SteelReserve), why we could never replace Bell's production with a draft pick(86Ward), and whether or not the league could exist without Bell on the roster(Lipps). Just amazing really.

Eh? I do think a long-term deal with Bell is the best option if we can do it. That other nonsense about tagging and un-tagging him was what was no good.

Born2Steel
02-20-2018, 10:28 PM
Eh? I do think a long-term deal with Bell is the best option if we can do it. That other nonsense about tagging and un-tagging him was what was no good.

I'm begging you to go back and read the entire conversation from page 1. I could not get a point across so I tried a different tack. It just proves again that texting/typing is a horrible way to get your point across.

Mojouw
02-21-2018, 12:02 AM
I'm begging you to go back and read the entire conversation from page 1. I could not get a point across so I tried a different tack. It just proves again that texting/typing is a horrible way to get your point across.

That's a good point. Almost all of the discussion here would end in agreement in person over a beer. It is so hard to debate on a web forum without sounding like you're coming after someone.

Half my posts are just devil's advocate stuff not meant to ruffle the feathers that I do.

Born2Steel
02-21-2018, 07:39 AM
That's a good point. Almost all of the discussion here would end in agreement in person over a beer. It is so hard to debate on a web forum without sounding like you're coming after someone.

Half my posts are just devil's advocate stuff not meant to ruffle the feathers that I do.

A lot of times I get reactions to posts that are not really anything to do with what I posted. I'm sure I have done the same. If you read a sentence with the emphasis on a different word than the writer had when writing, you can get a totally different meaning than was intended.
OR
When you bring up a thought, that you think may be an interesting conversation topic, and it becomes a rally against one stat/name/number/etc, that was in your original thought, but not the point of it. I love those.

LOL!!!

Anyway, heading to Indy for another basketball tournament. Hopefully some positive things will happen Steelers-wise this week as well.

DesertSteel
02-21-2018, 11:50 AM
That's a good point. Almost all of the discussion here would end in agreement in person over a beer. It is so hard to debate on a web forum without sounding like you're coming after someone.

Half my posts are just devil's advocate stuff not meant to ruffle the feathers that I do.
It's all good with me! I look forward to reading your posts.

Mojouw
02-21-2018, 11:54 AM
It's all good with me! I look forward to reading your posts.

Good! I look forward to your postings as well.

lipps83
02-21-2018, 07:45 PM
What are you talking about? The original situation given was tag Bell, draft a replacement RB, then revoke the tag and let Bell walk. In other words:

That was my fault, I didn't know you were specifically referring to the franchise tag.