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Born2Steel
01-26-2018, 11:41 PM
Several threads have been started on here that either start out as a discussion on Bud Dupree, or becomes a discussion about Bud Dupree. I have been caught up in a few of those conversations myself. It comes to my attention that by Steelers fan's expectations, Dupree simply has not played up to his 1st round draft status. More is expected from the OLB position across the board by many posters on here as well. I really don't want to get into more debate over 5th year options in this thread. Instead, I would like to start a conversation on what exactly is the role of the OLB in TODAY'S Steeler defense. One reason is because I don't think I really know any more, and would like to know what the next draft pick's skillset should include. Another reason is if the focus role is to rush the passer, why did Harrison receive so few snaps? If the focus role is pass coverage, why are we expecting double digit sack numbers from this position anyway? But I think the main reason I would like to start a conversation defining the role of the Steeler OLB, is to just be able to have civilized discussion again. And maybe we can start narrowing in on some actual draftees that can be immediate impact players, as a byproduct.

I think I read a post on here early last season that made a lot of sense to me. It read,"In a 3-4 defense's front 7, great DL play can cover weak LB play. Great LB play can cover weak DL play. If both are weak you're doomed. But if you get really good at both you win championships." I don't remember who posted it or when, but it really stayed with me and kept me thinking on this concept. The only way we can become great at LB again is if we can actually define the role of the position. Then we can find the players to fit those roles. AND, we already have the great DL.

Mojouw
01-27-2018, 12:30 PM
Okay, this is way too long and not interesting to anyone but me – but here goes!

I think that we can start outlining what the Steelers want on a LB or any defender really based on the past several drafts.

In an OLB there are going to target guys that are tall but not too tall (leverage I guess) and big but not bulky. So you figure 6 foot to 6 foot 5 or so and about 250-265. They usually like guys with long arms at the OLB position, but it hasn't been as consistent as the height/weight stuff.

Tomlin said something once about "Run and Hit" linebackers and defenders. I really think the team is placing a very high priority on guys that can move sideline to sideline and for LBs, even OLBs, they want guys that can play from 0-15 yards of the line of scrimmage. In particular, they want an OLB to be able to turn and carry a RB or TE down the field – maybe not every play but at least have it be an option.

The next thing they look at and this seems to be for any pick in the post Jarvis Jones drafts seems to be at least one “elite” trait. Shazier it was sheer speed and quickness. Bryant it was size/speed ratio. Burns it was his speed and overall agility. Davis it was his ball skills for a safety. Hargrave it was the quickness and nimble feet of a man that size. I could go on, but I really do think that after Jarvis Jones flamed out in the NFL, the Steelers realized that production at even a big time NCAA program (which used to be a big time thing for Colbert) wasn’t enough if the kid wasn’t also an amazing athlete. So now they look for at least one just eyebrow raising physical trait. Heck, even Dupree has a lightening quick first step.

I guess to better answer your question, what do the Steelers want in an OLB in terms of on the field production? I think, unfortunately, they want it all and it is very hard to find those guys. They want the ability to move with backs and TEs (hell they put Watt on wideouts!). They also want the ability to set the edge in the run game. They want a guy with relentless backside pursuit and the ability to maneuver quickly down the line and chase RBs down from the non-play side. They also want a guy who can beat OTs one on one without the benefit of stunts, overloads, or other schematic gimmicks to get a path to the QB.

Overall I think the ideal line for the Steelers would be 50 tackles, 8-10 sacks w/a ton of hurries besides, 3 forced fumbles, 2 INTS and an overall zeal for putting the dude with the ball on his ass.

I guess the only problem is that at any one point there are what, 6 maybe 10 guys in the NFL capable of doing all that? What I think is the Steelers biggest problem of late with the position is that it is just too darn hard to determine how much a draft prospect has an instinctual feel for the game. Now while Watt is a great athlete, much of his success is because he just seems to always move to the right spot with little wasted motion. He also never shows an OL the same thing twice. Just astounding for a rookie LB. In contrast, Dupree can not seem to consistently be able to put all that jaw-dropping athletic ability to productive use because he seems to think too much on the field. For instance, prior to the injury, I think Shazier was finally able to let all his physical skills come into play because he was just playing ball. No more thinking no more hesitating to make sure he had the right key etc. He was just letting it rip and it was great to watch. Long story short, if the Steelers can ever get the Dupree to the point where he just goes out there and plays free and easy – he might accidentally just dominate.

TL;DR – If the Steelers could design an OLB in the lab he would look like Bud Dupree, have Dupree’s athletic talent, Watt’s instincts, Ryan Shazier’s football IQ, and Gregg Llyod’s demeanor.

Born2Steel
01-27-2018, 01:12 PM
Great post.

I see the Steeler OLB as a player that, at the snap of the ball, has the physical ability to both set the edge as a run defender, AND cover an area roughly the size of hash to sideline on pass plays. This player will most likely not know pre-snap which he will need to do, and must be intelligent enough to recognize and adjust quickly on the fly. I agree with your assessment that there are probably only 6-10 guys currently in the NFL that are THAT guy. So, IMO, the alternative to trying to strike gold may be carrying a more specialized personnel group. Rather than trying to get 4 guys that can do ALL, have 2 guys that are pure pass rushers with limited cover ability, a guy that is a glorified safety playing OLB, and a guy that is the epitome of what a Steeler OLB is supposed to be. The odds are so much better at that being successful than trying to find 2, let alone 4 of the guy you describe in your last sentence. The goal is maybe to add 1 each year until we have those 2, but that may take more than a few drafts.

Currently, our OLB corps consists of 3 guys (Dupree, Watt, and Chickillo) and 1 unknown (Adams). From my viewpoint, Watt grades out closest to the guy you describe. Dupree is closest to the glorified safety role. And Chickillo and Adams are the ears back pass rushers. This assessment is purely from what we have to work with on the team today. So the question then becomes, 'which will be the easiest guy to upgrade through the draft'?
And I honestly don't know the answer. I think you immediately say the pass rush specialist. But we have had very little success finding that guy in the last 5 drafts plus FA. Obviously it's not the golden ticket guy. So maybe what we should be trying to land first in this draft is a glorified safety/OLB guy.

Craic
01-27-2018, 02:23 PM
I'd have to agree with what's already been written for the most part, but I'd break it down a different way. Let's look at it through assignments:

Assignments in the run game: The key to our run defense is the OLBs setting the edge and forcing rushers inside. That means they have to be strong enough not to get pushed out of the play, and smart enough to know what's going on around them. So, our OLBs need above average strength or average strength plus mass to set the edge, as well as football smarts.

Assignments in the passing game: Here is where it gets tricky. Our OLBs have a duel responsibility to cover as well as rush. This means we'll take speed as long as there's strength and/or mass to set the edge in the run game and/or rush when called upon. We also use zone enough that our OLBs need to have decent ball skills.

Assessment: To me, that means we take players that are fast, but with enough mass or strength set the edge and a willingness to hit the hole and stuff runs. They need football smarts. They also need good ball and coverage skills. In short, our scheme demands OLBs that are probably in the top 5-10 percent of OLBs in the NFL. When we don't get it, our run defense suffers. I'd prefer a scheme that evens out the demand across more positions.

FrancoLambert
01-27-2018, 03:27 PM
So what you guys want in an OLB are speed, size, strength, toughness, and intelligence. I agree. :chuckle:

lipps83
01-27-2018, 03:51 PM
Greg Lloyd.

Steeldude
01-27-2018, 03:52 PM
Good reads.

I think there is an x-factor also. The great Steelers' LBs(ILB or OLB)were intimidating and very focused. A tough mental make-up.

86WARD
01-27-2018, 04:39 PM
Haven’t read all the posts here but looking forward to them.

My answer...depends on what time period you are talking about. The shortbanswer: The OLB in the 90s isn’t necessarily what they are looking for in 2018.

steelreserve
01-27-2018, 06:49 PM
Basically everything Dupree was supposed to do but doesn't, or what Watt actually does.

It's rare to get all that in a single package, so I'd settle for someone who can generate pressure ON HIS OWN, which we haven't had since about 2010. Fuck covering receivers, he just has to barely get by at that, and there are 3 other linebackers on the field if we want people who specialize in that.

I think a big problem we've had recently is that we've tried to have four individually well-rounded linebackers rather than four linebackers who are well-rounded as a group. As stated earlier, the individual guys who can do it all are few and far between, so what we're trying means you spend a first-round pick on all four positions and still probably don't have the players you need.

I can't think of a single time in the last 30 years when all of our linebackers have been good at everything, because that's almost impossible. So I would stop doing that right away and maybe we'll do better.

RunNGun
01-27-2018, 10:26 PM
I think what the Steelers have been looking for are the prototypical LBs. Guys that have all the physical traits you want like size, speed, and strength. While they may not be the most polished players, I think they put faith in their coaching staff to teach these players techniques and to coach them up. It's extremely hard to find an elite OLB now adays when you're picking in the late 20s a majority of the time. Watt has caught on quickly. Dupree has been a little slower, but I'm not as down on him as many others. His potential is there, he just needs to put it all together.

Like mentioned, a great d line goes a long ways in how your LBs produce. I think if we could get an elite a NT it would really help our LBs. The Steelers have really taken that position for granted. I realize they don't utilize the NT like they did with Big Snack, but that's because we haven't had a space eater since his retirement.

pczach
01-28-2018, 07:37 AM
All of the above comments make a lot of sense and are basically what teams are looking for in a very general sense.

The scheme has changed a bit from the way the defense operated under LeBeau, and Butler and Tomlin's defense has changed the responsibilities of everyone within the scheme from the defensive linemen to the outside linebackers and inside linebackers. I believe the requirements of the OLB position have become more of a swiss army knife approach.

More pressure on the quarterback and more penetration from the defensive line is expected, rather than just having defensive linemen eating up blocks like they did for so many years. Any tackles or sacks were a bonus for the DL in the old scheme. Now, the DL is counted on much more for disruption behind the LOS, and OLB are asked to do much more in coverage than when they were playing in a predominantly zone-blitz scheme where you just cover the flat or drop to a spot in the hopes the quarterback misreads the pressure of the blitz and throws to that area as a hot read which results in the ability to get a hand on the ball or an interception. OLB are now playing much more in space and are often lined up in man coverage and running deep down the field, or dropping deep into zone coverages. The physical demands and the range of skills and athleticism required to do all that is very demanding and difficult to find. When you combine the coverage responsibilities with setting the edge and taking on 330 LB OT's while rushing the quarterback, it's a big ask.

I truly believe that the OLBs have been getting a little too much blame for the run defense. Teams figured out how to attack the defense without Shazier on the field. The ILBs were just not athletic enough or fast enough to play inside out and get to the spots to fill holes and make plays. The safety play and the design of the defense didn't help as Butler was never able to make the adjustments to cover the flat and the short sideline zone. He even brought Gay in against the Jags in more of a safety role and he wasn't able to get over to make the plays necessary. There has to be an adjustment to the scheme and an upgrade at ILB from and athletic standpoint, and safety from an instinct and ball skills standpoint IMO.

Once the ILBs weren't able to make plays, the entire defense started breaking down because many players kept trying to go outside of their responsibilities to try to make plays instead of just doing their jobs. It's a problem that all players fight from time to time, but I believe that too many players were more worried about trying to do everything instead of just doing their job assignments on each play and trusting their teammates to get it done. The lack of scheme discipline and freelancing in an effort to compensate resulted in a lot of breakdowns.

From a strictly pass rushing perspective, the OLBs are expected to get effective pressure either with elite pass rush skills, or to have great football instincts and vision to be able to adjust to the blocker and the quarterback as the play develops. Knowing how to use their hands to defeat blocks is a requirement, and then the ability to bend at the edge to get to the quarterback and finish with the outside rush or to bull rush or be able to show the outside move and then shed the blocker on the inside rush is what is expected.

This is what has separated Watt from Dupree in my opinion. Watt has such great instincts on top of his great athleticism that he seems to be able to adjust more on the fly as a play develops, while being able to go inside or outside better than Dupree. Watt also seems to have better vision than Dupree in that he never seems to lose track of where the quarterback or ball carrier is while trying to defeat the blocks of the OL. That's why he always seems to be around the ball.

Dupree has a great first step, but has a hard time with the body lean to convert speed to power to get to the quarterback with his outside rush. The bigger problem to me is that he doesn't threaten the inside move enough to set up his speed rush outside. Here's where we get to the unknown. Does he just not have any inside moves because he hasn't been able to develop one or doesn't have the strength required to perform those moves, or has his inside shoulder been the real culprit that has been holding him back and literally taking away a large part of his game? That is the multimillion dollar question that needs to be answered. If he is incapable of developing a power inside rush, he will never be more than he is right now. If he is capable of more and his shoulder problem is solved, his production should go up considerably because he has the size, speed, and first step in his outside rush that will become much more effective when the inside rush is in play for the RT to protect.

We should get our answers early next season if Dupree's shoulder is healed. It is time to see the full extent of his skills.

teegre
01-28-2018, 12:17 PM
Basically everything Dupree was supposed to do but doesn't, or what Watt actually does.

It's rare to get all that in a single package, so I'd settle for someone who can generate pressure ON HIS OWN, which we haven't had since about 2010. Fuck covering receivers, he just has to barely get by at that, and there are 3 other linebackers on the field if we want people who specialize in that.

I think a big problem we've had recently is that we've tried to have four individually well-rounded linebackers rather than four linebackers who are well-rounded as a group. As stated earlier, the individual guys who can do it all are few and far between, so what we're trying means you spend a first-round pick on all four positions and still probably don't have the players you need.

I can't think of a single time in the last 30 years when all of our linebackers have been good at everything, because that's almost impossible. So I would stop doing that right away and maybe we'll do better.

There is something to this.

It’s rare to get an OLB who is the “complete” package. Watt might be the closest thing we’ve had in a long time.

Everyone was/is upset that we didn’t draft Carl Lawson instead of James Conner. Maybe, maybe not. But, that’s not my point of bringing him up. What Lawson does better than ANY rookie (and better than 90% of ANY other OLBs) is create pressure. On PFF (take that as you will), the guy averaged like a 39 score... and the next best rookie had his best day at like a 21.

Now... the proboem is that Lawson only played on third downs (not much of a run defender, can’t cover TEs). Still, the Bengals used him to get off of the field on third downs (which would have been awesome for us to have). Belichick has used his LBs the same way (certain players on certain downs/distances).

The problem comes when when a team converts a third down, and the offense goes hurry up (and the defense can’t substitute). You’re caught with a pass-rusher trying to stop the run (or, cover a RB). And... that can spell trouble.

Still, it would be nice to have a guy like Lawson to come in and sack the QB.

Heck, Bruce Irvin was a “pass-rush only” player, but they coached him up to be an every-down LB.

SUMMATION:
You make a great point.

Fire Goodell
01-29-2018, 04:31 PM
James Harrison 10 years ago

Honestly speaking, TJ Watt if he improves his pass rushing ability, will be that complete OLB we're looking for. He is money in coverage, pretty good at stopping the run. If he can get to the QB with more consistency, he will be a pro bowler until 2028

Rotorhead
01-29-2018, 05:59 PM
pczach, I think Dupree's issue is lack of football IQ. I think they need a guy who has a very good football IQ, then speed second (as long as his frame can bulk up I don't mind size coming out of the draft). The guy needs to read and react to the play faster and better than Dupree. Dirty Red is just too slow, but his instincts were there early in the season (prior to the injury). I would look for guys that always seem to be around the ball (which tells me they are good at diagnosing the play), from that group, they can get the quickest / fastest / strongest guy (depending what they are looking for) out of that narrowed group.

Mojouw
01-29-2018, 06:35 PM
pczach, I think Dupree's issue is lack of football IQ. I think they need a guy who has a very good football IQ, then speed second (as long as his frame can bulk up I don't mind size coming out of the draft). The guy needs to read and react to the play faster and better than Dupree. Dirty Red is just too slow, but his instincts were there early in the season (prior to the injury). I would look for guys that always seem to be around the ball (which tells me they are good at diagnosing the play), from that group, they can get the quickest / fastest / strongest guy (depending what they are looking for) out of that narrowed group.

THat's a great start, but that is where the tape can kinda lie to you a bit. Dupree and Jarvis Jones were both always around the ball. Honestly, they are in their college game tapes or at least a great deal of it. Jones in particular because the defense was designed to funnel plays to him. Dupree was the top sack guy in the SEC. I mean that puts you around the ball a lot.

I think what is not clear is how to identify how quickly a guy really can diagnose things. Maybe the person interviewing the players prior to the draft for the Steelers isn't that good? Burns, Dupree, Davis all seem to get brain lock some times.

pczach
01-29-2018, 06:36 PM
pczach, I think Dupree's issue is lack of football IQ. I think they need a guy who has a very good football IQ, then speed second (as long as his frame can bulk up I don't mind size coming out of the draft). The guy needs to read and react to the play faster and better than Dupree. Dirty Red is just too slow, but his instincts were there early in the season (prior to the injury). I would look for guys that always seem to be around the ball (which tells me they are good at diagnosing the play), from that group, they can get the quickest / fastest / strongest guy (depending what they are looking for) out of that narrowed group.



You may be right. He's not as instinctive or aware as Watt. Let's hope he gets healthy and is able to use all those physical gifts next year so we can finally see what he is capable of.

They're probably going to draft another OLB this year. We just don't know when they're going to address it in the draft.

Born2Steel
01-29-2018, 06:55 PM
pczach, I think Dupree's issue is lack of football IQ. I think they need a guy who has a very good football IQ, then speed second (as long as his frame can bulk up I don't mind size coming out of the draft). The guy needs to read and react to the play faster and better than Dupree. Dirty Red is just too slow, but his instincts were there early in the season (prior to the injury). I would look for guys that always seem to be around the ball (which tells me they are good at diagnosing the play), from that group, they can get the quickest / fastest / strongest guy (depending what they are looking for) out of that narrowed group.

I can agree with this thought. One of the toughest things so far looking ahead to the draft, is there are no clear next level stars. Last season it was Garrett, there just isn't that guy this time around. Most of the higher rated LBs are still 2nd-4th round values at this time. I think you're on to something with your approach. If you look at LBs that are always around the ball at the end of the play, shows instinct and pursuit. Make a grouping of those guys and start your trimming down from that group. I like it. You're not going to get the all-in-one-package LB this draft, not right off anyway. Develop guys that show the instincts are there, and have good speed to the ball. They will learn the rest as they play, if you drafted the right guys.