PDA

View Full Version : Report: Le’Veon Bell Showed Up Late To Jaguars Game, Missed Nearly All Of Saturday’s Walkthrough



Shoes
01-19-2018, 01:30 PM
I wouldn't even offer this dumbass a contract, play your last year and hit the road!



BY ALEX KOZORA (http://www.steelersdepot.com/author/alex-kozora/) JANUARY 19, 2018 AT 10:58 AM
There is certain to be drama and tension between the Pittsburgh Steelers and Le’Veon Bell this offseason. Bell is again adamant about wanting a long-term deal while it still seems likely the team puts the franchise tag on him. But it appears that tension existed before the offseason began. Ed Bouchette has a couple interesting nuggets of info in his State of the Steelers (http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/19/leveon-bell-contract-negotation-holdout-Mike-Tomlin-Kevin-Colbert-Art-Rooney-Ryan-Shazier/stories/201801180124) wrap up article.
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2018/01/report-leveon-bell-showed-late-jaguars-game-missed-nearly-saturdays-walkthrough/

st33lersguy
01-19-2018, 01:41 PM
Could they slap the franchise tag of him, try and trade him then rescind it when free agency hits. I know it sounds far-fetched and may be impossible, but they try and sucker some dumb team into trading for him and then if not, rescind the tag and free up the capspace. I certainly wouldn't let him in the locker room again

BlackAndGold
01-19-2018, 02:09 PM
Things need to be changed in the locker room. Too much of this is happening.

If I'm Tomlin, I start going after these guys bank accounts when they start acting up.

Harrison sleeping during meetings, Bryant situation(seems resolved), and now Bell showing up late when it's the playoffs.

teegre
01-19-2018, 02:11 PM
Tag him.

Trade him to the Browns for the 33rd pick in the draft.

hawaiiansteeler
01-19-2018, 02:25 PM
Le’Veon Bell blew off the Steelers' last walk-through — and more from a wild season

ED BOUCHETTE
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
JAN 19, 2018

Bell performed as well as expected in 2017 and made All-Pro again. But he also threatened to sit out the year if they put the franchise tag on him for the second time. That tag will be 20 percent higher than last year’s $12.12 million, so make it $14.57.

It’s probably an idle threat, but the Steelers have to be reaching a point where they ask, is he worth it? He turned down their offer last year of a contract that would have paid him more than $12 million on average per year and more than $30 million in the first two. The next highest-paid backs earn $8.5 million per year. His agent wanted to take it, Bell did not.

So what’s to make anyone think they can come to terms on a multiple-year deal this time? If they can’t, using that franchise tag would stress their salary cap because it all would count against it in 2018. Over The Cap pegs their cap room at $2.7 million, pending a rise in the cap, for their top 51 contracts (the only ones who count in the offseason). That does not include Bell.

If they do reach the breaking point, they could use that $14.57 million elsewhere — or not make moves to find the room — and draft another halfback in the first or second round. If Bell leaves as a free agent, the Steelers would receive a compensatory draft pick in 2019, perhaps in the third round.

It’s possible Le’Veon Bell will not play for the Steelers in 2018.

to read rest of article:

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/19/leveon-bell-contract-negotation-holdout-Mike-Tomlin-Kevin-Colbert-Art-Rooney-Ryan-Shazier/stories/201801180124

Edman
01-19-2018, 02:41 PM
I want to cast the blame on Bell, but this has been more of an indicator on Tomlin than anything else. He fosters a clubhouse and not a team. This more of less explains why the team continues to underperform against inferior teams.

The Jacksonville loss cast a big spotlight on Mike Tomlin as a coach.

DesertSteel
01-19-2018, 03:14 PM
I’m on record that I’ll be happy to move on from him. He can take his 4.0 ypc and pedestrian speed to a team like the Browns or the Bucs. His best days are over.

Edman
01-19-2018, 03:18 PM
I’m on record that I’ll be happy to move on from him. He can take his 4.0 ypc and pedestrian speed to a team like the Browns or the Bucs. His best days are over.

Just like that good for nothing cancer James Harrison needed to go, right? Its easy to point the finger at the players and not the source: the culture in that locker room.

The true cancer with this team is Mike Tomlin.

BlackAndGold
01-19-2018, 03:21 PM
Just like that good for nothing cancer James Harrison needed to go, right? Its easy to point the finger at the players and not the source: the culture in that locker room.

The true cancer with this team is Mike Tomlin.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/l3q2K5jinAlChoCLS/200w.gif

Mojouw
01-19-2018, 03:29 PM
Like everything else in life, this is troubling but not conclusive of anything without context. Key unknown questions include: Was Bell excused? Did Bell have prior discussions or communication with the team on Saturday?
The timing of arrivals prior to kick-off appears to have been ignored by multiple players and multiple coaches multiple times over the course of the season - makes one wonder what kind of "policy" it actually is.

Long story short, this is another half-assed article by Bouchette. How well placed was his "source"? Does that source actually know WTF he is talking about?

I'm gonna reserve freaking out and making definitive declarations about the state of the team until some more information comes out. Remember when Bryant was apparently "missing" from practices and everyone reported he faked calling in sick and it turns out he was just doing his counseling that the team totally knew about before-hand? Yeah.

Craic
01-19-2018, 03:43 PM
Like everything else in life, this is troubling but not conclusive of anything without context. Key unknown questions include: Was Bell excused? Did Bell have prior discussions or communication with the team on Saturday?
The timing of arrivals prior to kick-off appears to have been ignored by multiple players and multiple coaches multiple times over the course of the season - makes one wonder what kind of "policy" it actually is.

Long story short, this is another half-assed article by Bouchette. How well placed was his "source"? Does that source actually know WTF he is talking about?

I'm gonna reserve freaking out and making definitive declarations about the state of the team until some more information comes out. Remember when Bryant was apparently "missing" from practices and everyone reported he faked calling in sick and it turns out he was just doing his counseling that the team totally knew about before-hand? Yeah.

Yep. This may be very bad and more indication of an attitude that Bell just doesn't care and thinks way to highly of himself. Or, this may be an article completely missing context. Maybe Bell was completely excused, but he busted his rear-end to get to the walkthrough to at least touch bases with the team.

Best to wait until more information comes out.

DesertSteel
01-19-2018, 03:46 PM
Just like that good for nothing cancer James Harrison needed to go, right? Its easy to point the finger at the players and not the source: the culture in that locker room.

The true cancer with this team is Mike Tomlin.
Yeah Tomlin is a cancer. That’s a joke.

AtlantaDan
01-19-2018, 03:50 PM
The true cancer with this team is Mike Tomlin.

Based on more knowledge than I care to have learned about that disease if Tomlin is a team cancer it is curable stage one level and the vast majority of teams in the league would like to get something similar

This from today's Ringer column from Bill Simmons (who has taken his shots at Tomlin over the years)

Can we start referring to Mike Tomlin as what he is ... a great college coach? Great college coaches are excellent recruiters, terrific motivators but the vast majority of them (I would argue 90 percent) are terrible in-game coaches.
—Nick Ewertz
BS: Except Tomlin won a Super Bowl, has a career record of 124-67 (including playoffs) and never finished below .500 in any season. If you could have any active coach lead your playoff-ready team for one season, you’re choosing from this list: Bill Belichick, Mike Zimmer, Sean Payton, Mike Tomlin, Doug Marrone, Sean McVay, Pete Carroll, John Harbaugh and Andy Reid if you absolutely hate yourself. :chuckle:

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2018/1/19/16909010/championship-round-picks-patriots-jaguars-vikings-eagles-brady-bortles

But since I guess you think the cancer needs to be removed who would you hire to replace him (spoiler alert - successful head coaches are not on the market), including any new HC hired so far in this hiring cycle?


How well placed was his "source"? Does that source actually know WTF he is talking about?


My guess is the same source who said Haley had a broken pelvis after spending New Years Eve at Tequila Cowboy (a story regarding the extent of Haley's injuries which received no pushback as being false after it was published - the happy talk passing as a police report was issued prior to Bouchette's story )

Since my guess is players have little to do with Bouchette I assume it is a front office type - my followup question is who is the coach who showed up late - Porter or Haley?

As another example, Tomlin wants players and coaches to report to the locker room two hours before kickoff for games. That was continually ignored by both players and a coach or two.

Not only did Bell arrive much later than that for the playoff game against Jacksonville (as well as one coach)

Fire Goodell
01-19-2018, 04:10 PM
Tag him.

Trade him to the Browns for the 33rd pick in the draft.

I don't think even the Browns would go for that. They have to pick up his price tag AND a 2nd rounder (which for them, is essentially a late 1st rounder value :chuckle:)

Mojouw
01-19-2018, 04:15 PM
Based on more knowledge than I care to have learned about that disease if Tomlin is a team cancer it is curable stage one level and the vast majority of teams in the league would like to get something similar

Since I guess you think the cancer needs to be removed who would you hire to replace him (spoiler alert - successful head coaches are not on the market), including any new HC hired so far in this hiring cycle?




My guess is the same source who said Haley had a broken pelvis after spending New Years Eve at Tequila Cowboy (a story regarding the extent of Haley's injuries which received no pushback as being false after it was published - the happy talk passing as a police report was issued prior to Bouchette's story )

Since my guess is players have little to do with Bouchette I assume it is a front office type - my followup question is who is the coach who showed up late - Porter or Haley?

As another example, Tomlin wants players and coaches to report to the locker room two hours before kickoff for games. That was continually ignored by both players and a coach or two.

Not only did Bell arrive much later than that for the playoff game against Jacksonville (as well as one coach)

Which makes me all the more suspicious that Bouchette's "source" doesn't know what they are talking about. I mean unless I was mistaken, Haley's hip was clearly not "shattered". More and more the "source" seems like someone who is not really as informed as they think they are and exaggerates things more than a little. So maybe Skippy the Assistant to the Assistant Towel Boy?

AtlantaDan
01-19-2018, 04:32 PM
Which makes me all the more suspicious that Bouchette's "source" doesn't know what they are talking about. I mean unless I was mistaken, Haley's hip was clearly not "shattered". More and more the "source" seems like someone who is not really as informed as they think they are and exaggerates things more than a little. So maybe Skippy the Assistant to the Assistant Towel Boy?

Or someone with an ax to grind against Bell for burning them in contract negotiations last summer after the agent allegedly indicated to the Steelers they had a deal (another Bouchette story presumably from the same source - http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2017/08/18/LeVeon-Bell-contract-agreement-rejection-agent-five-years-12-million-franchise-tag-post-gazette-exclusive/stories/201708180164) who dislikes Haley (admittedly that includes most everyone with the organization)

Sometimes the "towel boy" as source provides plausible deniability for the person with first hand knowledge who wants a buffer - note the Steelers never pushed back on Bouchette's story they had a deal with Bell last summer even though the agent did - that to me indicates a direct or indirect link to someone fairly tuned in to operations

Edman
01-20-2018, 03:13 AM
Yeah Tomlin is a cancer. That’s a joke.

It's getting harder and harder each day to defend the guy when he has done next to nothing to show for it.

The Steelers as a team act like their **** doesn't stink, as Jacksonville comes out of nowhere and kicks their asses twice. Mike Tomlin has cultivated a culture of arrogance in that locker room, when they have nothing to earn the right to be arrogant. They have done a great job being New England's ***** and getting their faces punched in twice by a 10-6 Jaguars team though.

This team listens to their own press clippings, go into games with the idea that they'll win by just showing up, and constantly not ready to play and are ill-prepared. They pull wins out of their asses against crap teams (Packers, Bengals, Colts Ravens II) and think they're invincible.

Craic
01-20-2018, 09:52 AM
It's getting harder and harder each day to defend the guy when he has done next to nothing to show for it.

The Steelers as a team act like their **** doesn't stink, as Jacksonville comes out of nowhere and kicks their asses twice. Mike Tomlin has cultivated a culture of arrogance in that locker room, when they have nothing to earn the right to be arrogant. They have done a great job being New England's ***** and getting their faces punched in twice by a 10-6 Jaguars team though.

This team listens to their own press clippings, go into games with the idea that they'll win by just showing up, and constantly not ready to play and are ill-prepared. They pull wins out of their asses against crap teams (Packers, Bengals, Colts Ravens II) and think they're invincible.

Wait a second.

Are we talking about the same team that went 13-3 with one of those losses coming from a TD removed by an official against the Pats? The same team that lost their best LB halfway through the season and their best CB for over a third of the season? The same team that, despite numerous distractions from disgruntled employees, put it all behind them to win the AFCN and have the second best record in the AFC this year? The same team whose coach benched Bryant, which shut him up and got him to focus on his game? The same team whose offense dropped 42 points on the best defense in the NFL this year?

Look, I know we're disappointed that we didn't get back to the AFCCG this year. However, disappointment in a failed defense is a far cry from Tomlin being a cancer.

lipps83
01-20-2018, 10:06 AM
I like Tomlin, he can stick around. Sure, he has stinkers here and there, every coach does. The list of coaches better than him is very, very small and none of them are available.

Back on topic, Bell and his ego can go. Great player, not worth the money he wants or even a portion of it. Yes, this team can win a Super Bowl without him, the franchise won 6 and appeared in 8 that he wasn't a part of. Altogether since the NFL merger, there have been over 50 Super Bowl wins and 100 appearances that Le'Veon Bell was not a part of. It can be done, the statistics prove that Bell is not imperative to a Super Bowl appearance or victory by any team at any point in time. Two teams will appear in this years Super Bowl, and Bell is on neither team.

If the Steelers can make two Super Bowls with Willie Parker and Mendenhall, they can do it without Bell. Parker's and Mendenhall's are easy to get, there are 52 other dressed players that matter on if a team wins the Super Bowl, not JUST ONE.

AtlantaDan
01-20-2018, 10:12 AM
This is the 2017 season performance of the man who turned down a huge deal last summer and wants even more

From Gerry Dulac's end of season grades

For all his production, Bell was little more than a plodding runner who gained yards grudgingly late in the season. He had just one 100-yard game and only one run longer than 18 yards in the last 10 games. His season per-carry average of 4.0 was his lowest since his rookie year.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/19/gerry-dulac-report-card-steelers-2017-season-ben-roethlisberger-mike-tomlin-le-veon-bell/stories/201801190140 (http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/19/gerry-dulac-report-card-steelers-2017-season-ben-roethlisberger-mike-tomlin-le-veon-bell/stories/201801190140Another)

Another assessment

He does not break open games. His longest carry in 15 games this season went for 27 yards, and he had just three runs of more than 20 yards. Among the league’s top backs, only Indianapolis’ 34-year-old Frank Gore had a shorter season-long run, and 26 backs had more runs of 20-plus yards.

Although it is often said Bell possesses receiver skills so exceptional he could operate as an extra wideout, he rarely functions in that role. His receptions consisted primarily of check-downs by Ben Roethlisberger and produced an average gain of 7.7 yards. Among backs who caught at least 50 passes, that figure tied for eighth place.

Most damning, though, is that Bell does not impose his will upon the defense. He averaged 4.0 yards per carry in 2017, tied for 10th among the league’s top 15 rushers. He carried 321 times, and fully 15 percent of those attempts went for no gain or negative yardage. Add in those that produced fewer than 3 yards — and subtract his three 1-yard touchdowns and six converted first downs — and the share of failed runs rises to 39 percent.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/steelers-leveon-bell-contract-news-nfl-franchise-tag-free-agent-holdout-retire-running-back/19ejufztt8cdi186bdoj7jkovi

Bell by most objective measures is in decline - I always thought the only option for 2018 was to tag him but with all the drama, another holdout through at least the first regular season game, and declining performance the Steelers may roll the dice and let someone else overpay for a long term deal.

86WARD
01-20-2018, 10:16 AM
No one knows why he showed up at these times. They may be excused. It’s silly to just assume that he’s just showing up whenever he wants without any sort of repercussions. I’m sure if he was just going and doing whatever he wants, there would be some sort of punishment. He’s got this giant me first, larger than the team ego. Silly. No one but the Steelers know the story. If it’s true, he should’ve been benched...I tend to believe that it’s something that is a non-story. I mean...look at who “broke the story”. Douchette...need I say more?

What I find more disturbing is who put the story out there to douchette and why do the Steelers allow douchette to cover them? Time and time again, this asshat jams up the team and front office.

AtlantaDan
01-20-2018, 10:31 AM
What I find more disturbing is who put the story out there to douchette and why do the Steelers allow douchette to cover them? Time and time again, this asshat jams up the team and front office.

The Post-Gazette is not the official stenographic service for the Steelers - you can go to Steelers.com to read what is subject to the editorial control of the Steelers

Is your position the Steelers should be able to tell local media who can or cannot cover the team when any piece is not fanboy coverage or a strict recitation of what happened on the field?

Someone in the organization is not happy with Bell (this latest story - Bell's agent saying he would take the deal last summer) and wants to send a shot at Bell. It is not Bouchette's job to self-censor information he and his editors think to be accurate. If the Steelers want to claim what Bouchette or anyone else reports is not true they have the megaphone to get their story out

FWIW ESPN confirmed Bell was late to the walk through last Saturday

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=22155347

Born2Steel
01-20-2018, 10:34 AM
Tag him.

Trade him to the Browns for the 33rd pick in the draft.

Tag him, trade him to the Redskins(puts Cousins and Bell together again) for Kerrigan(OLB).

Mojouw
01-20-2018, 10:39 AM
Wait? The Jags came out of nowhere? I mean if that's the starting point... nevermind. I just can't do it today.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

86WARD
01-20-2018, 11:23 PM
The Post-Gazette is not the official stenographic service for the Steelers - you can go to Steelers.com to read what is subject to the editorial control of the Steelers

Is your position the Steelers should be able to tell local media who can or cannot cover the team when any piece is not fanboy coverage or a strict recitation of what happened on the field?

Someone in the organization is not happy with Bell (this latest story - Bell's agent saying he would take the deal last summer) and wants to send a shot at Bell. It is not Bouchette's job to self-censor information he and his editors think to be accurate. If the Steelers want to claim what Bouchette or anyone else reports is not true they have the megaphone to get their story out

FWIW ESPN confirmed Bell was late to the walk through last Saturday

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=22155347

The Steelers don’t have to issue credentials to Bouchette if they don’t want to. If the guy is putting shit stories out there, “fake news” and lazy journalism as he’s done in the past couple/few years, why give him access to your organization? To create unnecessary distractions? The Steelers have no obligation to the Post-Gazette or Bouchette to give them access. They can revoke that at any time.

There’s been no confirmation that Bell’s tardiness was inexcusable. None at all.

Iron Steeler
01-20-2018, 11:33 PM
The talent has carried the success of this team. And Tomlin has to be created for that at least. X's and O's , game planning, and in game coaching I have never been impressed.

If a Cowher, Coughlin , Saban type had this talent , we would have 10 superbowls.

We obviously haven't got this incredibly talented team to "buy in" to the coaches method or culture. I am not sure what Tomlins culture is.

But the bell curve is dropping at a steady pace!

hawaiiansteeler
01-21-2018, 01:10 AM
To return to Super Bowl, Steelers should run from Le'Veon Bell

Mike DeCourcy
Published on Jan. 20, 2018

It is possible that if Le’Veon Bell were the sort of running back who could change a game with a single run or define a team’s attack with his persistent battering, he might be worth the impertinent tweets and the pay-me-now ethic and the multiple suspensions and the too-frequent injuries and the consistent tardiness and even the $14.6 million he is likely to cost in 2018 under the NFL’s franchise tag.

Bell is not that player, though.

If the Pittsburgh Steelers want to find their way back to the Super Bowl, they’ll need to accept that their addiction to Bell’s skill set is not worth the exorbitant amount of money it leeches from them.

to read rest of article:

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/steelers-leveon-bell-contract-news-nfl-franchise-tag-free-agent-holdout-retire-running-back/19ejufztt8cdi186bdoj7jkovi

AtlantaDan
01-21-2018, 08:15 AM
The Steelers don’t have to issue credentials to Bouchette if they don’t want to. If the guy is putting shit stories out there, “fake news” and lazy journalism as he’s done in the past couple/few years, why give him access to your organization? To create unnecessary distractions? The Steelers have no obligation to the Post-Gazette or Bouchette to give them access. They can revoke that at any time.

There’s been no confirmation that Bell’s tardiness was inexcusable. None at all.

What is fake about it? Bell goes on Twitter all the time - has he denied it? Maybe if he would DeCastro, who clearly has heard enough regarding the undisciplined comments, would call bullshit on him

As far as distractions, the P-G is not in the business of waving Pom-poms for the home team. The Steelers can pull credentials from anyone but if they cannot keep Bouchette from talking to those affiliated with the team that is their problem - no different than the Pats being unable to keep the lid on issues relating to trading Garrapolo for what in hindsight looks like a relative giveaway.

If Bouchette’s source(s) did not want to comment on Bell’s agent saying there was a deal on his contract, Bell missing most of the walk through the day before a playoff game (are you saying Tomlin perhaps would have said get here whenever you can, it’s all good), and both Bell and a coach not being able to fire up to get to the locker room by 11 am last Sunday they could simply not talk to Bouchette - someone wants to put out the word about Bell and how Tomlin handles the team - it is not Bouchette’s job to only perpetuate the myth the Steelers are a happy band of brothers with no problems

FrancoLambert
01-21-2018, 09:07 AM
The Steelers don’t have to issue credentials to Bouchette if they don’t want to. If the guy is putting shit stories out there, “fake news” and lazy journalism as he’s done in the past couple/few years, why give him access to your organization? To create unnecessary distractions? The Steelers have no obligation to the Post-Gazette or Bouchette to give them access. They can revoke that at any time.

There’s been no confirmation that Bell’s tardiness was inexcusable. None at all.

Do you really think that Tomlin or Colbert would openly confirm that Bell's tardiness was inexcusable?

They're taking the fifth on that one.

fansince'76
01-21-2018, 09:07 AM
If a Cowher, Coughlin , Saban type had this talent , we would have 10 superbowls.

Doubtful.

Cowher had more than his share of playoff stinkers (Stan Humphries/'94 Chargers, anyone?).

Outside of the stars lining up just right for him twice, Coughlin's coaching record was really quite pedestrian.

Saban already crashed and burned at the NFL level, which is why he went back to the NCAA.


Although it is often said Bell possesses receiver skills so exceptional he could operate as an extra wideout, he rarely functions in that role.

Which is much more of an indictment of the OC than Bell...

Born2Steel
01-21-2018, 09:30 AM
This offense depends on Bell. If a new OC is going to change that, fine. Otherwise pay Bell to do what he does, because he's the reason it's a top rated offense. If he leaves, so does 80% of the offensive production. As of today, this is a one dimensional offense until we either sign Bell, or find his replacement.

hawaiiansteeler
01-21-2018, 10:06 AM
Rapoport: Steelers won't talk long-term contract with Bell until franchise tag is signed

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-gameday/0ap3000000908476/Rapoport-Steelers-won-t-talk-long-term-contract-with-Bell-until-franchise-tag-is-signed

teegre
01-21-2018, 10:48 AM
With that money sane amount of money, the Steelers could get either Demarcus Lawrence (OLB) or Lamarcus Joyner (FS). Both would improve this defense immensely.

Or... they could get both Eric Reid (FS) and Ziggy Ansah (OLB/DE).

But, man alive!!! Bell is so good.

stillers4me
01-21-2018, 10:55 AM
With that money sane amount of money, the Steelers could get either Demarcus Lawrence (OLB) or Lamarcus Joyner (FS). Both would improve this defense immensely.

Or... they could get both Eric Reid (FS) and Ziggy Ansah (OLB/DE).

But, man alive!!! Bell is so good.

I've always said, we are most certainly a better team when he is on the field. (by about a mile) It's too bad he's so immature about his methods of pointing this out.

hawaiiansteeler
01-21-2018, 11:03 AM
With that money sane amount of money, the Steelers could get either Demarcus Lawrence (OLB) or Lamarcus Joyner (FS). Both would improve this defense immensely.

Or... they could get both Eric Reid (FS) and Ziggy Ansah (OLB/DE).

But, man alive!!! Bell is so good.

"Now, let's talk about what Bell does not do on the field.

He does not break open games. His longest carry in 15 games this season went for 27 yards, and he had just three runs of more than 20 yards. Among the league’s top backs, only Indianapolis’ 34-year-old Frank Gore had a shorter season-long run, and 26 backs had more runs of 20-plus yards.

Although it is often said Bell possesses receiver skills so exceptional he could operate as an extra wideout, he rarely functions in that role. His receptions consisted primarily of check-downs by Ben Roethlisberger and produced an average gain of 7.7 yards. Among backs who caught at least 50 passes, that figure tied for eighth place.

Most damning, though, is that Bell does not impose his will upon the defense. He averaged 4.0 yards per carry in 2017, tied for 10th among the league’s top 15 rushers. He carried 321 times, and fully 15 percent of those attempts went for no gain or negative yardage. Add in those that produced fewer than 3 yards — and subtract his three 1-yard touchdowns and six converted first downs — and the share of failed runs rises to 39 percent."

https://sports.yahoo.com/return-super-bowl-steelers-run-234457366.html

Born2Steel
01-21-2018, 12:04 PM
Walk me through the "No Bell Offense" plan. Where does his production come from. However he ranks league-wise, whatever his attitude, however mature, he is the fulcrum of this Steeler offense.

pczach
01-21-2018, 12:06 PM
With that money sane amount of money, the Steelers could get either Demarcus Lawrence (OLB) or Lamarcus Joyner (FS). Both would improve this defense immensely.

Or... they could get both Eric Reid (FS) and Ziggy Ansah (OLB/DE).

But, man alive!!! Bell is so good.


I can live with Reid and Ansah!

They can find a RB that will be good enough with the talent on offense IMO.

I love Bell as a player. As I've said, I may have been his biggest fan from the very beginning as I lobbied for the Steelers to draft him because I thought he would be a great player. He plays hard all the time. He knows his assignments. He blocks. His receiving skills are unmatched. He doesn't bitch about not getting the ball.

He is just insufferable about this contract. I'm sure James Harrison has been a great role model in that regard.

As much as it hurts, I'm OK with them letting him go. There's more than one way to win, and no one player is bigger than that ultimate goal. Being held hostage by a running back that probably has more great days behind him than in front of him is not the way to reach the promised land. I also don't like the example or the precedent it creates on behavior going forward. This shit needs to stop, and the idea that being a locker room or off-field asshole gets you rewarded needs to stop right now.

This team can use those millions for other areas of need in free agency, and then land a couple studs in the draft.

Bell is great.......But Ben makes this team go. When Bell was running for 67 yards per game, Ben was slinging it all over the yard and carrying this team again. Even AB can't do what AB does without Ben. I generally trust the organization to do what's right, but I think Bell needs to be shown the door. I think the team gets stronger without him and his enormous salary. Just last year I told everyone going into the draft about Kamara and how his game would translate to the NFL. There are guys like that in nearly every draft. I believe that they can find someone dynamic enough to fit this offense at a fraction of the cost of Bell.

Steeldude
01-21-2018, 12:13 PM
"Now, let's talk about what Bell does not do on the field.

He does not break open games. His longest carry in 15 games this season went for 27 yards, and he had just three runs of more than 20 yards. Among the league’s top backs, only Indianapolis’ 34-year-old Frank Gore had a shorter season-long run, and 26 backs had more runs of 20-plus yards.

Although it is often said Bell possesses receiver skills so exceptional he could operate as an extra wideout, he rarely functions in that role. His receptions consisted primarily of check-downs by Ben Roethlisberger and produced an average gain of 7.7 yards. Among backs who caught at least 50 passes, that figure tied for eighth place.

Most damning, though, is that Bell does not impose his will upon the defense. He averaged 4.0 yards per carry in 2017, tied for 10th among the league’s top 15 rushers. He carried 321 times, and fully 15 percent of those attempts went for no gain or negative yardage. Add in those that produced fewer than 3 yards — and subtract his three 1-yard touchdowns and six converted first downs — and the share of failed runs rises to 39 percent."

https://sports.yahoo.com/return-super-bowl-steelers-run-234457366.html

And that's why I wouldn't pay him big money. Draft another versatile RB and move on. Connor isn't the answer. It's too bad Barkley will be gone. He is the only RB I would draft in the 1st round.

Born2Steel
01-21-2018, 01:01 PM
I keep reading the words, "another versatile RB, a RB that will be good enough". That's not a good enough plan to replace what Bell already does. It's just not. If it costs another franchise tag to keep his production, then that is what it costs. There are no other viable plans at this time.

hawaiiansteeler
01-21-2018, 01:05 PM
I keep reading the words, "another versatile RB, a RB that will be good enough". That's not a good enough plan to replace what Bell already does. It's just not. If it costs another franchise tag to keep his production, then that is what it costs. There are no other viable plans at this time.

we will definitely franchise tag Bell again, but I highly doubt the Steelers give in to his unreasonable contract demands.

AtlantaDan
01-21-2018, 01:19 PM
Although it is often said Bell possesses receiver skills so exceptional he could operate as an extra wideout, he rarely functions in that role.

Which is much more of an indictment of the OC than Bell...

In Bell's breakout year as a receiver in 2014 a killer throw was Bell on a slant across the middle where the safety or LB covering him could not keep up

In 2014 week 17 Bengals took care of that by taking out his knee after one of those completions

https://www.si.com/nfl/video/2014/12/29/pittsburgh-steelers-leveon-bell-knee-injury-bengals

Do not recall seeing that play nearly as much the past few seasons, possibly based on great potential costs not justifying potential benefits - which is how it works when you pay big $$$ to RBs

fansince'76
01-21-2018, 01:27 PM
In Bell's breakout year as a receiver in 2014 a killer throw was Bell on a slant across the middle where the safety or LB covering him could not keep up

In 2014 week 17 Bengals took care of that by taking out his knee after one of those completions

https://www.si.com/nfl/video/2014/12/29/pittsburgh-steelers-leveon-bell-knee-injury-bengals

Do not recall seeing that play nearly as much the past few seasons, possibly based on great potential costs not justifying potential benefits - which is how it works when you pay big $$$ to RBs

So, take an effective play out of the playbook because of a cheap shot artist. Sounds a lot like the moratorium on QB sneaks.

Glad Haley's moving on...

hawaiiansteeler
01-21-2018, 01:44 PM
So, take an effective play out of the playbook because of a cheap shot artist. Sounds a lot like the moratorium on QB sneaks.

Glad Haley's moving on...

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ba/73/41/ba7341a634efe2a6cb004b46a5400fcb.jpg

pczach
01-21-2018, 02:19 PM
I keep reading the words, "another versatile RB, a RB that will be good enough". That's not a good enough plan to replace what Bell already does. It's just not. If it costs another franchise tag to keep his production, then that is what it costs. There are no other viable plans at this time.



It's not just the words. You get all that money to use on quality players to help the team. Then draft and try to find a standout RB for a fraction of the money and you have improved your team.

I won't be dancing around celebrating if the best RB in football isn't on the roster, but I understand where this team is right now, and how much help they need at other positions. $14 + million can bring in a ton of help at multiple positions.

Would you take a Kareem Hunt-type RB this year, while picking up a quality free agent pass rusher and safety with Bell's salary? It's entirely possible.

I just still believe there are ways to succeed without Bell. That's a huge amount of money to pay a non-quarterback, and a position that can be addressed successfully in the draft.

86WARD
01-21-2018, 02:31 PM
Again...

Where’s the evidence that it wasn’t excused. No one here knows whether it was or was not excusable. If it was a big deal...don’t you think more than one person would be reporting on it at that time? Look at the Harrison situation...how many sources were there in that case? How many people reported that? Bouchette again, the only one out there with a “source” (following stories where his “sources” were less than credible...lol) as ESPN piggies backs the story.

Point is...whether it is or isn’t an excusable thing, no one here knows and it’s coming from an unreliable reporter who has been known lately to try to report controversial stories.

Lady Steel
01-21-2018, 02:57 PM
This off-season is going to be messy regarding Bell. I'm sure he will be spouting off on social media again, although I hope he doesn't.

86WARD
01-21-2018, 02:59 PM
This off-season is going to be messy regarding Bell. I'm sure he will be spouting off on social media again, although I hope he doesn't.

Agree. Social media is evil most of the time...

Mojouw
01-21-2018, 04:04 PM
Ok. So take Bells money and look at the FA list. They are easily available on the Google machines.

Based on all the lists I've seen the available players I've seen are 2 down linebackers with the same skillset and profile as VW. That doesn't help.

Most of the available safeties are box guys or vets entering their third contract with question marks. Don't need that.

Having cap money and having there be players available that fit your needs is not the same thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

pczach
01-21-2018, 04:52 PM
Ok. So take Bells money and look at the FA list. They are easily available on the Google machines.

Based on all the lists I've seen the available players I've seen are 2 down linebackers with the same skillset and profile as VW. That doesn't help.

Most of the available safeties are box guys or vets entering their third contract with question marks. Don't need that.

Having cap money and having there be players available that fit your needs is not the same thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



So you're saying that the team needs to decide who they're taking right now? They don't get to go through a draft, see who is franchised, see what veteran players with big contracts that are cut, or the cuts in the preseason to get talent? They can only base their decision on players available while the AFC Championship game is on?

Are trades not an option?

I mean, what are we talking about here? A team needs to sign a RB to a nearly $15 million, 1-year contract because they can't guarantee a player as good as him?

Again....if they somehow draft a Hunt or Kamara type player, they would still be wrong for not signing Bell?

There are going to be good players on the open market. There always are. I just don't want the team held hostage to one player that is becoming a bigger distraction every day, and a culture in a locker room that is legitimately being questioned.

It's strange that I'm the guy that is making the argument to let Bell go. I love him as a player. It's just starting to feel like it's time for a multitude of reasons.

If they keep him, I'd love to see what they can do with the roster to add to it.

If they then can't re-sign Haden, what have they actually gained by keeping Bell, other than creating another hole or two on the roster? Is anyone even considering who the team will lose if they sign him?

These are real questions that need to be answered now if everyone needs to know what FA players will be signed by the team right now as well.

Mojouw
01-21-2018, 05:13 PM
So you're saying that the team needs to decide who they're taking right now? They don't get to go through a draft, see who is franchised, see what veteran players with big contracts that are cut, or the cuts in the preseason to get talent? They can only base their decision on players available while the AFC Championship game is on?

Are trades not an option?

I mean, what are we talking about here? A team needs to sign a RB to a nearly $15 million, 1-year contract because they can't guarantee a player as good as him?

Again....if they somehow draft a Hunt or Kamara type player, they would still be wrong for not signing Bell?

There are going to be good players on the open market. There always are. I just don't want the team held hostage to one player that is becoming a bigger distraction every day, and a culture in a locker room that is legitimately being questioned.

It's strange that I'm the guy that is making the argument to let Bell go. I love him as a player. It's just starting to feel like it's time for a multitude of reasons.

If they keep him, I'd love to see what they can do with the roster to add to it.

If they then can't re-sign Haden, what have they actually gained by keeping Bell, other than creating another hole or two on the roster? Is anyone even considering who the team will lose if they sign him?

These are real questions that need to be answered now if everyone needs to know what FA players will be signed by the team right now as well.

Look, I'm not saying cap room isn't a good thing. I am saying that everyone seems to be thinking that you can take $$ from pot A and move them to pot B to patch a hole. But you have to consider the other moves that $$ transfer creates.

Big-time playmaking ILBs are usually not available in FA. From the lists I have seen there is NOT even a guy with a Shazier skill-set whose contract is expiring coming into this off-season. So what is the point of freeing up cap $$ with nothing to spend it on? Same with FS. Now that may change, you are correct in pointing that out.

But let's explore not franchising Bell (remember you can always pull the tag, trade him, or sign him to a deal that lowers the cap hit however unlikely). Now you have the following holes to patch before you can even really consider other positions:
1. Starting RB.
2. 1 starting ILB and @ least 1high-level reserve
3. 1 starting safety and @ least 2 high-level reserves

I think that part of Bell's cap $$ could go towards the high-level reserves and maybe the starting safety. But you still have a gaping hole at ILB and RB. Now you go into the draft needing to nail 2 picks with immediate starter level impacts.

If you tag Bell, you can extend/restructure Ben R, cut Mike Mitchell, Wilcox, and Golden, throw in a Decastro restructure and now you have the same or MORE cap $$$ to chase FA defenders and NOT a gaping hole on offense as well as in the middle of your defense.

My only real point is that moving resources from one point to another has a cost. And that cost has to be paid. In this case it is spending a top 3 round pick on a RB. Unless anyone thinks Conner/Ridley/Touissant are gonna cut it.

teegre
01-21-2018, 05:17 PM
There are no quality ILBs in free agency. Maybe you can move Nigel Bradham to ILB... maybe...

But, there are quite a few safeties.

Mojouw
01-21-2018, 05:20 PM
There are no quality ILBs in free agency. Maybe you can move Nigel Bradham to ILB... maybe...

But, there are quite a few safeties.

True there are - assuming they all make it to the open market. But looking at things, you can free up more than enough cash to chase 2 high $$ FAs (like 10 million+) by cutting Mitchell, Wilcox, Golden, and restructuring DeCastro and extending/redoing Ben R's deal. Of course that all assumes there is way to get out of Shazier's cap hit and the research by others shows that might not happen!

I also realize that I argued that there wasn't enough $$ for FAs, but I'm revising that considering that I didn't take into account restructures and Ben R willing to commit to multiple additional seasons.

teegre
01-21-2018, 05:24 PM
True there are - assuming they all make it to the open market. But looking at things, you can free up more than enough cash to chase 2 high $$ FAs (like 10 million+) by cutting Mitchell, Wilcox, Golden, and restructuring DeCastro and extending/redoing Ben R's deal. Of course that all assumes there is way to get out of Shazier's cap hit and the research by others shows that might not happen!

I also realize that I argued that there wasn't enough $$ for FAs, but I'm revising that considering that I didn't take into account restructures and Ben R willing to commit to multiple additional seasons.

True.

Bell will be tagged. Then, it’s his move...

pczach
01-21-2018, 05:42 PM
Look, I'm not saying cap room isn't a good thing. I am saying that everyone seems to be thinking that you can take $$ from pot A and move them to pot B to patch a hole. But you have to consider the other moves that $$ transfer creates.

Big-time playmaking ILBs are usually not available in FA. From the lists I have seen there is NOT even a guy with a Shazier skill-set whose contract is expiring coming into this off-season. So what is the point of freeing up cap $$ with nothing to spend it on? Same with FS. Now that may change, you are correct in pointing that out.

But let's explore not franchising Bell (remember you can always pull the tag, trade him, or sign him to a deal that lowers the cap hit however unlikely). Now you have the following holes to patch before you can even really consider other positions:
1. Starting RB.
2. 1 starting ILB and @ least 1high-level reserve
3. 1 starting safety and @ least 2 high-level reserves

I think that part of Bell's cap $$ could go towards the high-level reserves and maybe the starting safety. But you still have a gaping hole at ILB and RB. Now you go into the draft needing to nail 2 picks with immediate starter level impacts.

If you tag Bell, you can extend/restructure Ben R, cut Mike Mitchell, Wilcox, and Golden, throw in a Decastro restructure and now you have the same or MORE cap $$$ to chase FA defenders and NOT a gaping hole on offense as well as in the middle of your defense.

My only real point is that moving resources from one point to another has a cost. And that cost has to be paid. In this case it is spending a top 3 round pick on a RB. Unless anyone thinks Conner/Ridley/Touissant are gonna cut it.



Who said anything about Conner/Ridley/and Touissant being enough? Not me. I said that would need to be addressed in the draft.

What if they find a way to trade Bryant to a team for a safety or a draft pick that allows them to target another player in the draft? There are other possibilities. What if Earl Thomas is in play? You're probably not making that deal with Bell taking up $15 mil. It's well known that Thomas isn't happy and Seattle may be fielding offers. Would Thomas be an upgrade? Damn right he would.

I just don't limit myself with what I think is possible. With Ben being in for another couple runs, big things might actually happen with more bold moves by the organization.

IMO, RB and ILB are two of the easiest to identify in the draft and have an immediate impact in the NFL.

And again, don't dismiss all the roster cuts before the regular season. There will be talent available just like with Joe Haden.

I know they can restructure contracts, and if they do that....I'm OK with that and will support whatever the team decides. I'm just saying there are options that could be considered and should be considered by this team that they normally don't with a window clearly closing in a few years.

Born2Steel
01-21-2018, 05:45 PM
It's not just the words. You get all that money to use on quality players to help the team. Then draft and try to find a standout RB for a fraction of the money and you have improved your team.

I won't be dancing around celebrating if the best RB in football isn't on the roster, but I understand where this team is right now, and how much help they need at other positions. $14 + million can bring in a ton of help at multiple positions.

Would you take a Kareem Hunt-type RB this year, while picking up a quality free agent pass rusher and safety with Bell's salary? It's entirely possible.

I just still believe there are ways to succeed without Bell. That's a huge amount of money to pay a non-quarterback, and a position that can be addressed successfully in the draft.

That is exactly my point, until somebody starts putting names with the "quality players to help the team", it's all fantasy and pixie dust. We have everything we need to be successful on offense with Bell, question marks only without Bell. I understand your point about giving up something on the offense to gain something on the defense, and I'm in that boat with you. I just don't think that answer is Bell. We currently have 1 NFL caliber RB on this team. I would pay to not risk heading into next season with zero and hoping Conner becomes one. Or using a draft pick to hopefully draft what we already have. We already know this ILB corps and Safety group and most of our OLBs and that fun bunch of TEs are ALL worthy of getting cut and replaced this offseason. Why on Earth would we jump to getting rid of a guy who brings it each and every game and produces at an all-pro level? That move completely hamstrings this offense worse than any defense we face could ever do.

DesertSteel
01-21-2018, 06:04 PM
Who knows what Conner will become. I see lots of potential. That said, I go RB in the 2nd and use them as a 1-2 punch. Bell is not the best RB in th league. That belongs to Gurley. Not even close. Everything that went wrong this year needs cleaned up starting with Bell's holdout, which will be repeated if tagged. I'll be glad to see him go.

Mojouw
01-21-2018, 06:17 PM
Here are the LBs set to be free agents -- http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/linebacker/. Anyone see anyone on that list that who says "playmaking ILB who can cover well in space?" I don't but I am willing to be swayed. Best "name" on the list is Bowman and he isn't covering well in the passing game anymore. You can certainly improve depth here, but that kind of cap room can be had without touching the Franchise tag $$ to Bell.

Here is the list of safeties -- http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/safety/. I see Burnett and Joyner as the big names on the list. Joyner a better fit than Burnett as he plays FS. Now assuming either of those guys hits the market (Joyner almost certainly won't), they are gonna go for 10-12 million per year. That can be gotten with Mike Mitchell cut and a restructure. So "keeping" Bell hasn't put you out of the bidding there.

Even if we look at a trade for Earl Thomas, he can be gotten without taking the Franchise Tag $$ off the table. Thomas costs $10.4 million against the cap this year (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/seattle-seahawks/earl-thomas-6523/). That's likely the same or less than Burnett or Joyner fetch on the open market. Again that $10 million can come from other places on the Steelers cap table. Where the hell the 1st round draft picks the 'Hawks would try and get is going to come from is not as clear...

This is all a super long winded way of saying that tagging Bell and then starting the off-season process (can always take it back...I think) gives the team a combination of flexibility and least roster holes to fill.

However, I'm not in charge and it may be possible that the Steelers just say "Screw it. This guy is a clown" and walk away. But I think that will be almost solely for character reasons rather than financial ones.

Rotorhead
01-21-2018, 06:32 PM
I would personally like to tag Bell then trade his ungrateful ass to the Browns (since it appears Haley is heading there) for another first round pick.

teegre
01-21-2018, 06:35 PM
I would personally like to tag Bell then trade his ungrateful ass to the Browns (since it appears Haley is heading there) for another first round pick.

The Browns have the cap space to give him $18 million/season.

And, they have a plethora of draft picks (1, 3, 33, 35).

DesertSteel
01-21-2018, 06:59 PM
As long as he got his money Bell wouldn’t mind going to the Browns.

Born2Steel
01-21-2018, 07:45 PM
The Browns have the cap space to give him $18 million/season.

And, they have a plethora of draft picks (1, 3, 33, 35).

IF...The Browns were to offer 33 AND 35 today, I would consider it. 3 picks between 28 and 35 should yield 3 immediate impact players, if the last 2 drafts are the measuring stick. However, what I think a lot on this thread are forgetting is that when it comes to the draft, past success does not guarantee future success. Example, 2013, and 2015 drafts. Nailed it in the 2014 draft though. Trying to measure what Bell has done since getting here to other RBs like Gurley and Hunt(seem to be the faves on here), is Bell continues to do it. Defenses plan to stop Bell, Bell still does it, Bell comes back from major injury, Bell still does it. I am not impressed by one year guys or even 2nd/3rd year guys. In '14, '16, and '17 Bell was responsible for 1900+ yards of offense each year. He only played 6 games in '15 and went for 700. Kareem Hunt didn't do that(just shy of 1800). In his 3 seasons, Gurley has achieved, 1300, 1200, and hit 2000 this season. Not even in the same conversation as Bell for consistency. All of these "Just replace Bell" posters need to come up with names. WHO? Who is going to replace Bell's 1900 yards per season for this offense? It just doesn't make any sense.

teegre
01-21-2018, 07:59 PM
IF...The Browns were to offer 33 AND 35 today, I would consider it. 3 picks between 28 and 35 should yield 3 immediate impact players, if the last 2 drafts are the measuring stick. However, what I think a lot on this thread are forgetting is that when it comes to the draft, past success does not guarantee future success. Example, 2013, and 2015 drafts. Nailed it in the 2014 draft though. Trying to measure what Bell has done since getting here to other RBs like Gurley and Hunt(seem to be the faves on here), is Bell continues to do it. Defenses plan to stop Bell, Bell still does it, Bell comes back from major injury, Bell still does it. I am not impressed by one year guys or even 2nd/3rd year guys. In '14, '16, and '17 Bell was responsible for 1900+ yards of offense each year. He only played 6 games in '15 and went for 700. Kareem Hunt didn't do that(just shy of 1800). In his 3 seasons, Gurley has achieved, 1300, 1200, and hit 2000 this season. Not even in the same conversation as Bell for consistency. All of these "Just replace Bell" posters need to come up with names. WHO? Who is going to replace Bell's 1900 yards per season for this offense? It just doesn't make any sense.

I don’t think anyone thinks we will “replace” Bell.

I think it’s more of: use Bell to get more picks in order to fix the defense.

AtlantaDan
01-21-2018, 08:07 PM
The Browns have the cap space to give him $18 million/season.

And, they have a plethora of draft picks (1, 3, 33, 35).

If it is all about being competitive for Ben’s remaining years, Steelers are not going to trade Bell to a team they play two times a year - same reason Belichick sent Garrapolo to the 49ers for less in return

teegre
01-21-2018, 08:17 PM
If it is all about being competitive for Ben’s remaining years, Steelers are not going to trade Bell to a team they play two times a year - same reason Belichick sent Garrapolo to the 49ers for less in return

I thought about that, but the Browns have a) cap space and b) expendable picks.

steelerdude15
01-21-2018, 08:47 PM
As long as he got his money Bell wouldn’t mind going to the Browns.

Nobody in their right mind would want to play for Cleveland. :chuckle:

Craic
01-21-2018, 09:54 PM
I thought about that, but the Browns have a) cap space, b) expendable picks, and c) the inability to leverage talent in order to win a football game.

FIFY

Born2Steel
01-22-2018, 07:46 AM
I don’t think anyone thinks we will “replace” Bell.

I think it’s more of: use Bell to get more picks in order to fix the defense.

I understand that point. But the posts on here have been along the lines of 'just get another diverse RB', 'draft another RB that does what Bell does', and the like. That just dumb, kneejerk reaction, and not realistic discussion. I mean, why not just say, 'We currently have 6 picks for this draft. All we need to do is use each of those picks on a position of need, and on players that will become HoFers at those positions. That's how simple it is. Just do that.'
We need our RB. Areas of luxury on this offense/team are Oline, WR, and Dline. Those are places we can actually afford to lose someone of real value and it not cripple the entire team.

zulater
01-22-2018, 08:38 AM
You can't commit 14 million dollars of cap space to a player who is quite willing to torpedo the boat in order to get his way. Especially one with so many miles on the meter and one who has a history of poor judgement and a selfish attitude.

I'm going to laugh when he gets unfettered free agency and no one even approaches the contract he turned down from the Steelers last summer! :lol:

We got lots of talent offensively. They got a whole offseason to address the need. The offense will still be championship quality next season. Just as we were in 16 in the games that LeVeon was serving his suspension.

Born2Steel
01-22-2018, 08:44 AM
You can't commit 14 million dollars of cap space to a player who is quite willing to torpedo the boat in order to get his way. Especially one with so many miles on the meter and one who has a history of poor judgement and a selfish attitude.

I'm going to laugh when he gets unfettered free agency and no one even approaches the contract he turned down from the Steelers last summer! :lol:

We got lots of talent offensively. They got a whole offseason to address the need. The offense will still be championship quality next season. Just as we were in 16 in the games that LeVeon was serving his suspension.

And...I'm fine with moving on from Bell if that's what has to happen to move this franchise forward. But it's not as easy as "just get another guy as good as him". Make no mistake, his absence WILL be felt everywhere on this team, should he leave. He has that kind of impact here. Even assholes can be great football players, and I don't think he's anywhere near being an asshole. Not yet.

zulater
01-22-2018, 09:00 AM
And...I'm fine with moving on from Bell if that's what has to happen to move this franchise forward. But it's not as easy as "just get another guy as good as him". Make no mistake, his absence WILL be felt everywhere on this team, should he leave. He has that kind of impact here. Even assholes can be great football players, and I don't think he's anywhere near being an asshole. Not yet.

It's obviously a different offense without him. But that doesn't mean it can't be top tier. And don't minimize that his game is already is already showing signs of slipping. A 3.9 yards per carry is not great. His yards per catch were also an all time low. He had more first down carries for 2 or less yards than any back in the league. 2nd and 8 or worse is not a great down and distance situation for your qb. His stutter step approach is not great in the red zone. Perhaps that's part of the reason we struggle there to such a degree?

The thing he might be missed most for is his blitz pick ups and overall pass blocking. I think he's clearly the best in the league at that. But all in all he wasn't the back this year he was from 14-16.I'd say a 15-20% slippage. So is that going to get better? Is his approach and attitude due to his frustration with his contract status part of that? I honestly don't know? But what I think is it wont get better if you franchise him again. It will probably get worse. Maybe significantly so. And I can't see anyway he will come to terms on a long term contract. So do you bring back a likely disgruntled back who's going to eat up 14 million dollars of cap space? I just can't see it.

It wont be easy ( nor will it be impossible) but you need to come up with your plan to move forward without him. That's what offseasons are for.

Born2Steel
01-22-2018, 09:13 AM
It's obviously a different offense without him. But that doesn't mean it can't be top tier. And don't minimize that his game is already is already showing signs of slipping. A 3.9 yards per carry is not great. His yards per catch were also an all time low. He had more first down carries for 2 or less yards than any back in the league. 2nd and 8 or worse is not a great down and distance situation for your qb. His stutter step approach is not great in the red zone. Perhaps that's part of the reason we struggle there to such a degree?

The thing he might be missed most for is his blitz pick ups and overall pass blocking. I think he's clearly the best in the league at that. But all in all he wasn't the back this year he was from 14-16.I'd say a 15-20% slippage. So is that going to get better? Is his approach and attitude due to his frustration with his contract status part of that? I honestly don't know? But what I think is it wont get better if you franchise him again. It will probably get worse. Maybe significantly so. And I can't see anyway he will come to terms on a long term contract. So do you bring back a likely disgruntled back who's going to eat up 14 million dollars of cap space? I just can't see it.

It wont be easy ( nor will it be impossible) but you need to come up with your plan to move forward without him. That's what offseasons are for.

Right now, the only choice is, franchise tag him, or let him walk away. So, he's going to get tagged again. A sign and trade deal could be done possibly. Hypothetical...IF a team offered a player for Bell in a 1 to 1 trade, who is he worth? Draft pick, what round? At this point, the value is just not there for a player of his production.

zulater
01-22-2018, 09:21 AM
Right now, the only choice is, franchise tag him, or let him walk away. So, he's going to get tagged again. A sign and trade deal could be done possibly. Hypothetical...IF a team offered a player for Bell in a 1 to 1 trade, who is he worth? Draft pick, what round? At this point, the value is just not there for a player of his production.

In the end I think they're going to have to let him walk. I think the fact they fed Bouchette the story of him missing most of walkthrough ( which is closed to the press) and being late for the game ( not being there the prescribed 2 hours before) is an indication that the Steelers are trying to grease the skids a bit so it wont come as such a shock when they eventually release him. Also franchising him would entail carrying that entire 14 million on next years cap. That would put them in cap hell, and they have some real good players they need to address with extensions that will virtually be impossible to get done with that loadstone hanging from their necks.

Born2Steel
01-22-2018, 09:23 AM
A player that consistently does what Bell does, IMO, equates to my trusty old pickup analogy. It's never going to be worth what it once was, but it's value still remains.

zulater
01-22-2018, 09:31 AM
A player that consistently does what Bell does, IMO, equates to my trusty old pickup analogy. It's never going to be worth what it once was, but it's value still remains.

That would work better if you didn't have to factor in a 14 million dollar cap hit and level of commitment if he's forced to play ( or sit) with the franchise tag.

The contract they offered him last August will never be made again in my opinion, not even close. Plus you know he would only turn it down anyway. The next highest paid back in the league to Bell this season was Shady McCoy at 8.5 million.

So there's no way I can see the risk reward ratio favoring keeping Bell around. Put it this way. If you can't sign him long term before the draft. ( about a 100-1 odds against) then you leave him go and move on.

Born2Steel
01-22-2018, 09:48 AM
From what I understand, he has to be willing to come have a seat at the table, first. Sign the tag, and then let's talk about a contract. If that's some subtlety or ploy, I don't get the endgame.

86WARD
01-22-2018, 09:55 AM
Doesn’t matter if he signs for a game, a season, multiple seasons...if the coaching staff doesn’t do a better job, this team won’t go anywhere. Bell isn’t the most critical part of the offense, but he’s major cog. Towards the end of the season, he caught an abundant amount of dump passes and outlet passes where he wasn’t the primary guy. Probably part of the reason his average production was down. Losing Bell would leave a large hole. Losing Brown or Ben would leave large holes. Those three players hide a lot of the mess that has been the coaching staff on offense.

AtlantaDan
01-22-2018, 09:56 AM
From what I understand, he has to be willing to come have a seat at the table, first. Sign the tag, and then let's talk about a contract. If that's some subtlety or ploy, I don't get the endgame.

Once he signs the tag he can get fined if he does not report for camp and OTAs - not the case if he does not sign, as was the case last summer

With his exclusive franchise tag tender still unsigned, Bell is under no obligation to be at camp and cannot be fined for his absence.

http://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2017/07/24/little-to-be-gained-and-a-lot-to-be-lost-from-a-holdout-by-leveon-bell/

What incentive does he have to sign then negotiate rather than just negotiate until week one of regular season? Unless they spend a high draft choice on a RB I do not see the Steelers rolling with Conner and releasing Bell if he does not sign.

With regard to the cost of the tag, at least the relative value of running backs compared to other positions is relatively low. Which would you rather do if you ran a front office - tag Bell and pay $14.5 million or keep Bortles on the roster in Jax next season by paying his $19.1 fifth year option cost? Which player is more important to their respective offenses?

DesertSteel
01-22-2018, 10:03 AM
IF...The Browns were to offer 33 AND 35 today, I would consider it. 3 picks between 28 and 35 should yield 3 immediate impact players, if the last 2 drafts are the measuring stick. However, what I think a lot on this thread are forgetting is that when it comes to the draft, past success does not guarantee future success. Example, 2013, and 2015 drafts. Nailed it in the 2014 draft though. Trying to measure what Bell has done since getting here to other RBs like Gurley and Hunt(seem to be the faves on here), is Bell continues to do it. Defenses plan to stop Bell, Bell still does it, Bell comes back from major injury, Bell still does it. I am not impressed by one year guys or even 2nd/3rd year guys. In '14, '16, and '17 Bell was responsible for 1900+ yards of offense each year. He only played 6 games in '15 and went for 700. Kareem Hunt didn't do that(just shy of 1800). In his 3 seasons, Gurley has achieved, 1300, 1200, and hit 2000 this season. Not even in the same conversation as Bell for consistency. All of these "Just replace Bell" posters need to come up with names. WHO? Who is going to replace Bell's 1900 yards per season for this offense? It just doesn't make any sense.
You're making an assumption that past performance is a guarantee of future results. He's had 5 years and over 1500 touches. I see a decline in his near future. He has 2, maybe 3 years left at a high level. Plus he is not a home run back, which I greatly dislike.

- - - Updated - - -


It's obviously a different offense without him. But that doesn't mean it can't be top tier. And don't minimize that his game is already is already showing signs of slipping. A 3.9 yards per carry is not great. His yards per catch were also an all time low. He had more first down carries for 2 or less yards than any back in the league. 2nd and 8 or worse is not a great down and distance situation for your qb. His stutter step approach is not great in the red zone. Perhaps that's part of the reason we struggle there to such a degree?

Thank you for pointing out the FACTS!

Born2Steel
01-22-2018, 11:50 AM
You're making an assumption that past performance is a guarantee of future results. He's had 5 years and over 1500 touches. I see a decline in his near future. He has 2, maybe 3 years left at a high level. Plus he is not a home run back, which I greatly dislike.

- - - Updated - - -


Thank you for pointing out the FACTS!

They are not my assumptions. I compared Bell's actual stats vs the stats of RBs others on here have asserted as being better than Bell, or comparable. I showed the numbers do not back that up. Thinking Hunt or Gurley will continue to have seasons like 2017, is the assumption, Bell has a proven record. Those others do not.

DesertSteel
01-22-2018, 12:04 PM
They are not my assumptions. I compared Bell's actual stats vs the stats of RBs others on here have asserted as being better than Bell, or comparable. I showed the numbers do not back that up. Thinking Hunt or Gurley will continue to have seasons like 2017, is the assumption, Bell has a proven record. Those others do not.
When you are talking about the future how can they not be assumptions??? Do you have a crystal ball?

Born2Steel
01-22-2018, 12:14 PM
When you are talking about the future how can they not be assumptions??? Do you have a crystal ball?

You may have to actually go back and read. Find your own answers, I'm not here to get dragged into one of your pointless debates.

DesertSteel
01-22-2018, 12:25 PM
You may have to actually go back and read. Find your own answers, I'm not here to get dragged into one of your pointless debates.
Regardless, the bottom line is that you don't pay a guy based on what he's done in the past. History has proven that Running Backs don't have a long shelf life. I already have my answer.

"Your pointless debates"? If my comments are pointless then there's no need to respond at all.

AtlantaDan
01-22-2018, 12:37 PM
They are not my assumptions. I compared Bell's actual stats vs the stats of RBs others on here have asserted as being better than Bell, or comparable. I showed the numbers do not back that up. Thinking Hunt or Gurley will continue to have seasons like 2017, is the assumption, Bell has a proven record. Those others do not.

As the say in the investment prospectuses, past performance is no guarantee of future results, but it is not likely Bell's next three seasons will be as productive as his past three.

A big reason the RB position is not as highly valued is due to the shorter peak career years of RBs as opposed to WRs, as shown in this 2014 chart.

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fphoto%2Fchartbuilder%2FAge%2Dvs%2DProduct ion%2DRunning%2DBacks%2DReceivers1396880190285.png&w=570&cquality=40
The red line represents all running backs who have played at least four NFL seasons since 2001, with a minimum average of 75 carries per season. Overall, we see their careers peak at age 27. Afterward, their rushing totals drop by 15 percent in one year, 25 percent in two and almost 40 by the time they are 30.

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/123542/inside-slant-running-back-cliff-after-age-27

Bell turns 26 next month (like many draft quality RBs he left Michigan State after his junior year when he was 21) and has 582 carries the past 2 seasons

With that above average workload and his career peak at best looming (based on this past year's stats in terms of average yards per carry and longest runs from scrimmage he may have already peaked), his demands for a long term contract simply are not cost effective for the Steelers given his probable productivity after the 2018 season. The viable options are tag him again or say goodbye.

Born2Steel
01-22-2018, 12:37 PM
Regardless, the bottom line is that you don't pay a guy based on what he's done in the past. History has proven that Running Backs don't have a long shelf life. I already have my answer.

"Your pointless debates"? If you comments are pointless then there's no need to respond at all.

Exactly.

BlackAndGold
01-22-2018, 12:38 PM
I see no one in free agency that is worth not tagging Bell.

DeMarcus Lawrence: he had a great year but he also had back injury, how long will that hold up? he is not going to come cheap. I'll pass
Morgan Burnett: He's a good safety but throwing money at a 29 year old safety may not be smart.
Lamarcus Joyner: you could talk me into him, but I think the Rams pay up.
Eric Red: He's playing linebacker now, but he'd fill a role of a dimebacker very nicely.
Tre Boston: Steelers did show interest in Boston last year, not sure they will now since he'll look for a bigger payday

I can see a lot of 1 year "prove it" deals for many free agents. One including Demario Davis from the Jets. He's 29 and played very well this year while being nothing more than a back up his entire career. I'd be interested in giving him a 1 year deal.

Tag Bell
Find potential gems in FA (Davis, John Brown?)

Born2Steel
01-22-2018, 12:40 PM
As the say in the investment prospectuses, past performance is no guarantee of future results, but it is not likely Bell's next three seasons will be as productive as his past three.

A big reason the RB position is not as highly valued is due to the shorter peak career years of RBs as opposed to WRs, as shown in this 2014 chart.

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fphoto%2Fchartbuilder%2FAge%2Dvs%2DProduct ion%2DRunning%2DBacks%2DReceivers1396880190285.png&w=570&cquality=40
The red line represents all running backs who have played at least four NFL seasons since 2001, with a minimum average of 75 carries per season. Overall, we see their careers peak at age 27. Afterward, their rushing totals drop by 15 percent in one year, 25 percent in two and almost 40 by the time they are 30.

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/123542/inside-slant-running-back-cliff-after-age-27

Bell turns 26 next month and has 582 carries the past 2 seasons

With that above average workload and his career peak at best looming (based on this past year's stats in terms of average yards per carry and longest runs from scrimmage he may have already peaked), his demands for a long term contract simply are not cost effective for the Steelers given his probable productivity after the 2018 season. The viable options are tag him again or say goodbye.

Again, the point was not Bell's next 3 seasons. It was what he has done in comparison to the other 2 RBs mentioned. To assert that either of those RBs(which was asserted) will be better than Bell next season is the assumption, not showing the stats.

DesertSteel
01-22-2018, 12:46 PM
As the say in the investment prospectuses, past performance is no guarantee of future results, but it is not likely Bell's next three seasons will be as productive as his past three.

A big reason the RB position is not as highly valued is due to the shorter peak career years of RBs as opposed to WRs, as shown in this 2014 chart.

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fphoto%2Fchartbuilder%2FAge%2Dvs%2DProduct ion%2DRunning%2DBacks%2DReceivers1396880190285.png&w=570&cquality=40
The red line represents all running backs who have played at least four NFL seasons since 2001, with a minimum average of 75 carries per season. Overall, we see their careers peak at age 27. Afterward, their rushing totals drop by 15 percent in one year, 25 percent in two and almost 40 by the time they are 30.

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/123542/inside-slant-running-back-cliff-after-age-27

Bell turns 26 next month (like many draft quality RBs he left Michigan State after his junior year when he was 21) and has 582 carries the past 2 seasons

With that above average workload and his career peak at best looming (based on this past year's stats in terms of average yards per carry and longest runs from scrimmage he may have already peaked), his demands for a long term contract simply are not cost effective for the Steelers given his probable productivity after the 2018 season. The viable options are tag him again or say goodbye.

As usual, you hit the nail right in the head. No way would I sign Bell to a long term based on age/workload at the terms HE WANTS. The problem with the tag is the baggage and drama that it will create. I think the team is talented enough to win without him and the detriment of the tag drama will just cause a hangover from this drama-filled year.

AtlantaDan
01-22-2018, 12:53 PM
Again, the point was not Bell's next 3 seasons. It was what he has done in comparison to the other 2 RBs mentioned. To assert that either of those RBs(which was asserted) will be better than Bell next season is the assumption, not showing the stats.

Since Gurley and Hunt are not going to be on the free agent market in 2018 whether they will have a better or worse 2018 season than Bell is a point of interest for anyone assembling a fantasy team but irrelevant for Bell's contract negotiations.

I posted the chart to support the contention Bell is delusional if he thinks he is going to receive a multiyear contract from the Steelers for anything close to his demands - from an objective point of view the Steelers should lower their offer from last season since Bell now has one less year of max productivity to offer.

Given that Bell does not appear to be the sort to back down, IMO contract negotiations are going nowhere. AJR II, Colbert and Tomlin do not intend for the Steelers to be stuck with the consequences of a ludicrously high long term contract after Bell is done as a top shelf player (that mistake was made with Troy, who had a lot more goodwill banked than Bell does) while Colbert and Tomlin hope to still remain with the organization (AJRII has a bit more job security regardless of what happens to the Steelers competitiveness :chuckle: )

Born2Steel
01-22-2018, 12:59 PM
Bell's demands and contract negotiations are a completely separate conversation than the one I'm having, and have been having. So you quoting me and posting the graph is a bit out of context.

AtlantaDan
01-22-2018, 01:13 PM
Bell's demands and contract negotiations are a completely separate conversation than the one I'm having, and have been having. So you quoting me and posting the graph is a bit out of context.


Trying to measure what Bell has done since getting here to other RBs like Gurley and Hunt(seem to be the faves on here), is Bell continues to do it. Defenses plan to stop Bell, Bell still does it, Bell comes back from major injury, Bell still does it. I am not impressed by one year guys or even 2nd/3rd year guys. In '14, '16, and '17 Bell was responsible for 1900+ yards of offense each year. He only played 6 games in '15 and went for 700. Kareem Hunt didn't do that(just shy of 1800). In his 3 seasons, Gurley has achieved, 1300, 1200, and hit 2000 this season. Not even in the same conversation as Bell for consistency. All of these "Just replace Bell" posters need to come up with names. WHO? Who is going to replace Bell's 1900 yards per season for this offense? It just doesn't make any sense.

I was responding to your post that said "Bell just continues to do it" and appeared to argue any contention Bell should be replaced "just doesn't make any sense."

My points were just because he has done it does not mean he will continue to "do it" at the same level and that his continued presence on the team must take into account the fact that it just doesn't make any sense for the Steelers to sign him to a long term deal for the $$ he has demanded.

My apologies if you reagrded my post to take your observations out of context :drink:

So what would you do, if you were providing options to AJRII, Colbert & Tomlin, assuming Bell does not decrease his contract demands from last offseason, which the Steelers would not accept then and presumably are even less likely to accept now?

DesertSteel
01-22-2018, 01:16 PM
Since Gurley and Hunt are not going to be on the free agent market in 2018 whether they will have a better or worse 2018 season than Bell is a point of interest for anyone assembling a fantasy team but irrelevant for Bell's contract negotiations.

I posted the chart to support the contention Bell is delusional if he thinks he is going to receive a multiyear contract from the Steelers for anything close to his demands - from an objective point of view the Steelers should lower their offer from last season since Bell now has one less year of max productivity to offer.

Given that Bell does not appear to be the sort to back down, IMO contract negotiations are going nowhere. AJR II, Colbert and Tomlin do not intend for the Steelers to be stuck with the consequences of a ludicrously high long term contract after Bell is done as a top shelf player (that mistake was made with Troy, who had a lot more goodwill banked than Bell does) while Colbert and Tomlin hope to still remain with the organization (AJRII has a bit more job security regardless of what happens to the Steelers competitiveness :chuckle: )
Completely agree with lowering the offer. Last year was $12; this year should be $10.

Craic
01-22-2018, 01:26 PM
http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fphoto%2Fchartbuilder%2FAge%2Dvs%2DProduct ion%2DRunning%2DBacks%2DReceivers1396880190285.png&w=570&cquality=40


AD,

Thanks. That's a good visual. I still have a couple of questions about the chart, however. One is whether this is only rush yards or all-purpose yards. The second is whether we can divide between backs who get a lot of all-purpose yards vs. those who are primarily focused on rushing yards. It may be that backs with good receiving skills stick around longer.

On another note, if Bell turns 26 next month, then according to this chart, his next two years will be peak years, and his two years after that will still be quality years. He's rushed an average of 1280 yards over the last two years, If that's true, and at age 25 the yardage decreases, then next year (year 1 of a potential contract), he should rush for something close to 1400 yards, and the year after that (year 2), he should rush for almost 1500 yards. In the third year of his contract, he should rush for right around 1300 yards, and in year four, for around 1100+ yards. In year five, he'd finally drop to 900 yards.

So, if this chart is correct and if Bell follows the norm, the question to the Steelers is: how much is a four year 1000+ yard rusher and 5 year 900+ yard rusher who is also the number 2 receiver (and could be a number 1 receiver on probably the bottom third of NFL teams) worth? I don't think it's the numbers he's asking for, but I do think he's worth significantly more than what some here are thinking. Should he be the highest paid running back in the NFL? Absolutely. But he shouldn't blow the top off of the market. I'd increase the top by 10 to 15 percent. So, right now (unless there's been other big signings I don't know about), Devonta Freeman signed a contract for 41.25 mill over five years with 22 mill in guaranteed money. I'd increase that to 47.5 with 23 in guaranteed money and a 2-4 mill tied up in roster bonuses for his last three years of a four-year contract based on those numbers. That is right at 12 million a year, which is what we offered him last time. That also tells me that the contract previously offered him was a tad too low just looking at the numbers. Yet, when adding in possible year long suspensions for any future drug violations and having to prove durability, I think their offer was fair overall.

Born2Steel
01-22-2018, 01:45 PM
I was responding to your post that said "Bell just continues to do it" and appeared to argue any contention Bell should be replaced "just doesn't make any sense."

My points were just because he has done it does not mean he will continue to "do it" at the same level and that his continued presence on the team must take into account the fact that it just doesn't make any sense for the Steelers to sign him to a long term deal for the $$ he has demanded.

My apologies if you reagrded my post to take your observations out of context :drink:

So what would you do, if you were providing options to AJRII, Colbert & Tomlin, assuming Bell does not decrease his contract demands from last offseason, which the Steelers would not accept then and presumably are even less likely to accept now?

There IS a break point. I think the same offer sheet still applies, minus one year of value in guaranteed money. So basically, the FO does not budge on what they were willing to do. My understanding is that Bell has been told he will have to sign the tag, THEN the Steelers will come to the table to negotiate a new contract.
Either way, it is my understanding that Bell will be franchise tagged. If no new contract is agreed upon, this would be Bell's last season with the Steelers. Then, IMO, it comes down to they cannot agree on the money, both sides agree to disagree, and each walk their own way. This is an acceptable end to this relationship for me. What is not acceptable is to just let Bell walk away for zero value, to sign with whichever team will give him the money he wants, and the Steelers get nothing other than we now don't have to pay the tag price. That gains us nothing, and we lose the best RB in the league today. We are now looking at next season with gaping holes on both sides of the ball.

AtlantaDan
01-22-2018, 02:14 PM
AD,

Thanks. That's a good visual. I still have a couple of questions about the chart, however. One is whether this is only rush yards or all-purpose yards. The second is whether we can divide between backs who get a lot of all-purpose yards vs. those who are primarily focused on rushing yards. It may be that backs with good receiving skills stick around longer.

The chart apparently was for running backs with a minimum 4 seasons with an average of at least 75 rushing attempts per season - that low number of carries would include a lot of players of minimal importance to their teams, particularly compared to those as important to an offense as Bell is to the Steelers

Another article that was written at the end of the 2016 season sought to focus more specifically on the performance of backs carrying a burden similar to that carried by Bell for the Steelers by analyzing ""how other NFL running backs have fared at the age of 25 coming off years where they touched the football at least 300 times during the regular season since 2000. At the end of the 2016 season "there have been 25 running backs that match that criteria."

The chart in the linked article noted that

The first thing that jumps out in the differences of each player’s yearly stats below is the fact that 14 of these running backs missed at least two regular season games the year following them registering 300 or more touches.

The next difference that pops out is the fact only four of the 24 running backs, Edgerrin James, Deuce McAllister, Matt Forte and Ricky Williams, saw an increase in total rushing yards the season immediately following their 300-plus touch season at the age of 24. Additionally, only seven running backs in total had an increase in average yards per carry. And, only six running backs on this list saw their receiving yards increase the season following them touching the football 300 times or more.

As far as total touches (TT) go, only four running backs had that number increase the following season and Shaun Alexander just made the list with an increase of one touch.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/07/stats-study-25-year-old-running-backs-following-300-touch-seasons-since-2000/

Bell fortunately did not miss significant time due to injury in 2017. However, his average yards per carry decreased significantly and while his receiving yards increased in 2017 over 2016 (655 up from 616), his average yards per reception decreased from 8.2 yards per reception to 7.7 yards per reception. By any measure Bell's productivity as a receiver has dropped from his peak in 2014, when he had 83 receptions with an average 10.3 yards per reception, which undercuts his contention he should be paid a combo platter of RB and #2 receiver rather than as a RB who catches a lot of short passes.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BellLe00.htm

As I posted yesterday, my uneducated impression is that the type of routes Bell runs have changed to those more associated with other backs in order to reduce his exposure to injury after the Bengals blew out his knee on a slant across the middle in week 17 of the 2014 season. During this past season it appeared a lot of Bell's catches were safety valve dump offs from Ben, which would explain the diminished average yards per carry but also diminish Bell's market value with regard to his receiving skills.

One back noted in the Steelers Depot article was Edgerrin James, who Bell has been compared to. FWIW James had two great seasons his first 2 years in the league, dropped off seasons 3 and 4, then had three more very productive years in seasons 5-7 before he steadily declined thereafter.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JameEd00.htm

My position is Bell has more than one productive year left but not so many that his contract demands are realistic.

AtlantaDan
01-22-2018, 02:46 PM
955181705404538882

zulater
01-22-2018, 02:47 PM
The chart apparently was for running backs with a minimum 4 seasons with an average of at least 75 rushing attempts per season - that low number of carries would include a lot of players of minimal importance to their teams, particularly compared to those as important to an offense as Bell is to the Steelers

Another article that was written at the end of the 2016 season sought to focus more specifically on the performance of backs carrying a burden similar to that carried by Bell for the Steelers by analyzing ""how other NFL running backs have fared at the age of 25 coming off years where they touched the football at least 300 times during the regular season since 2000. At the end of the 2016 season "there have been 25 running backs that match that criteria."

The chart in the linked article noted that

The first thing that jumps out in the differences of each player’s yearly stats below is the fact that 14 of these running backs missed at least two regular season games the year following them registering 300 or more touches.

The next difference that pops out is the fact only four of the 24 running backs, Edgerrin James, Deuce McAllister, Matt Forte and Ricky Williams, saw an increase in total rushing yards the season immediately following their 300-plus touch season at the age of 24. Additionally, only seven running backs in total had an increase in average yards per carry. And, only six running backs on this list saw their receiving yards increase the season following them touching the football 300 times or more.

As far as total touches (TT) go, only four running backs had that number increase the following season and Shaun Alexander just made the list with an increase of one touch.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/07/stats-study-25-year-old-running-backs-following-300-touch-seasons-since-2000/

Bell fortunately did not miss significant time due to injury in 2017. However, his average yards per carry decreased significantly and while his receiving yards increased in 2017 over 2016 (655 up from 616), his average yards per reception decreased from 8.2 yards per reception to 7.7 yards per reception. By any measure Bell's productivity as a receiver has dropped from his peak in 2014, when he had 83 receptions with an average 10.3 yards per reception, which undercuts his contention he should be paid a combo platter of RB and #2 receiver rather than as a RB who catches a lot of short passes.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BellLe00.htm

As I posted yesterday, my uneducated impression is that the type of routes Bell runs have changed to those more associated with other backs in order to reduce his exposure to injury after the Bengals blew out his knee on a slant across the middle in week 17 of the 2014 season. During this past season it appeared a lot of Bell's catches were safety valve dump offs from Ben, which would explain the diminished average yards per carry but also diminish Bell's market value with regard to his receiving skills.

One back noted in the Steelers Depot article was Edgerrin James, who Bell has been compared to. FWIW James had two great seasons his first 2 years in the league, dropped off seasons 3 and 4, then had three more very productive years in seasons 5-7 before he steadily declined thereafter.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JameEd00.htm

My position is Bell has more than one productive year left but not so many that his contract demands are realistic.

Good post!:tt03:

And again you got to factor in the Steelers cap situation. That 14 million franchise tag can't be spread out. The entire hit goes into next year's cap. And last I heard we're already 27 million over as it stands. Now obviously there's going to be a lot of tweaking. But one of the major tweaks they were expecting was Shazier's 8 million to be lowered way down with a long term contract. Now that's out of the equation it's going to take a lot to get to the right number in time to sign our draft picks. As much as anything I think the timing of Shazier's injury will spell the end of Bell's time in Pittsburgh.

Psycho Ward 86
01-22-2018, 03:13 PM
955181705404538882

Regarding the non-exlusive tag, what are the rules on the two #1 picks you would receive? Can they be 1st round picks in the same draft? If so, the Bills and Browns have 2 1st round picks for this draft. Of course the Browns arent going to part with a #1 and #4 overall selection, but the Bills are #21 and #22 overall. If they traded McCoy and parted ways with their 1st rounders for Bell, Thats 3 picks for us in the 1st 1st 28 picks.

Talking in wild hypotheticals of course

AtlantaDan
01-22-2018, 03:26 PM
Regarding the non-exlusive tag, what are the rules on the two #1 picks you would receive? Can they be 1st round picks in the same draft? If so, the Bills and Browns have 2 1st round picks for this draft. Of course the Browns arent going to part with a #1 and #4 overall selection, but the Bills are #21 and #22 overall. If they traded McCoy and parted ways with their 1st rounders for Bell, Thats 3 picks for us in the 1st 1st 28 picks.

Talking in wild hypotheticals of course

This walks through a scenario where Bell gets the non-exclusive tag, the Browns make an offer to Bell before the draft, and the Steelers do not match along with no offers until after the draft

It sounds great to get 2 first round draft picks for a player, but the draft picks are written specifically so the deals many may think are possible, are not. Once tagged, Bell can only be traded for 2 first round draft picks. The first round picks must be the slotted picks earned by that team’s record. So if Cleveland wanted to trade first round picks, they couldn’t trade their #4 pick, it would have to be their #1 pick in the first round (since they hold the #1 and #4 picks and finished with the worst record, so their slotted pick is the first in the draft). The second first round pick would be their 2019 pick from their record slotting. So if Bell is tagged, there are no draft day deals to get the Steelers whatever pick they want. Steelers would only have draft day freedom to trade Bell for any pick, if Bell is signed to a contract and is not tagged....

Conversely, if Bell isn’t signed and the draft is over. Teams can then submit offers. A team like the Patriots could make an offer that the Steelers don’t match, then the Steelers don’t have Bell and have to wait a year to get the Pat’s first pick. That would create a talent vacuum at RB for a year, unless James Connor returns 100% from his MCL surgery. So in this situation the franchise tag could work against the Steelers’ plans.

https://www.steelernation.com/cap-class-leveon-bell-franchise-tag/

Born2Steel
01-22-2018, 03:33 PM
This walks through a scenario where Bell gets the non-exclusive tag, the Browns make an offer to Bell before the draft, and the Steelers do not match along with no offers until after the draft

It sounds great to get 2 first round draft picks for a player, but the draft picks are written specifically so the deals many may think are possible, are not. Once tagged, Bell can only be traded for 2 first round draft picks. The first round picks must be the slotted picks earned by that team’s record. So if Cleveland wanted to trade first round picks, they couldn’t trade their #4 pick, it would have to be their #1 pick in the first round (since they hold the #1 and #4 picks and finished with the worst record, so their slotted pick is the first in the draft). The second first round pick would be their 2019 pick from their record slotting. So if Bell is tagged, there are no draft day deals to get the Steelers whatever pick they want. Steelers would only have draft day freedom to trade Bell for any pick, if Bell is signed to a contract and is not tagged....

Conversely, if Bell isn’t signed and the draft is over. Teams can then submit offers. A team like the Patriots could make an offer that the Steelers don’t match, then the Steelers don’t have Bell and have to wait a year to get the Pat’s first pick. That would create a talent vacuum at RB for a year, unless James Connor returns 100% from his MCL surgery. So in this situation the franchise tag could work against the Steelers’ plans.

https://www.steelernation.com/cap-class-leveon-bell-franchise-tag/

Can teams revoke those offers later for any reason?

tube517
01-22-2018, 03:51 PM
Can teams revoke those offers later for any reason?

I think Josh Norman got tagged and then the Panthers revoked it and he then signed with the Skins. Can't remember all the details

Born2Steel
01-22-2018, 04:18 PM
I think Josh Norman got tagged and then the Panthers revoked it and he then signed with the Skins. Can't remember all the details

I think that is correct.

pczach
01-22-2018, 04:59 PM
This walks through a scenario where Bell gets the non-exclusive tag, the Browns make an offer to Bell before the draft, and the Steelers do not match along with no offers until after the draft

It sounds great to get 2 first round draft picks for a player, but the draft picks are written specifically so the deals many may think are possible, are not. Once tagged, Bell can only be traded for 2 first round draft picks. The first round picks must be the slotted picks earned by that team’s record. So if Cleveland wanted to trade first round picks, they couldn’t trade their #4 pick, it would have to be their #1 pick in the first round (since they hold the #1 and #4 picks and finished with the worst record, so their slotted pick is the first in the draft). The second first round pick would be their 2019 pick from their record slotting. So if Bell is tagged, there are no draft day deals to get the Steelers whatever pick they want. Steelers would only have draft day freedom to trade Bell for any pick, if Bell is signed to a contract and is not tagged....

Conversely, if Bell isn’t signed and the draft is over. Teams can then submit offers. A team like the Patriots could make an offer that the Steelers don’t match, then the Steelers don’t have Bell and have to wait a year to get the Pat’s first pick. That would create a talent vacuum at RB for a year, unless James Connor returns 100% from his MCL surgery. So in this situation the franchise tag could work against the Steelers’ plans.

https://www.steelernation.com/cap-class-leveon-bell-franchise-tag/



There is a lot of great info in your posts on this subject Dan.

Great job, and thanks!

AtlantaDan
01-22-2018, 05:07 PM
There is a lot of great info in your posts on this subject Dan.

Great job, and thanks!

Thanks- maybe this is therapy for me to escape reflecting on the Jax loss and the grim prospect of another Pats championship :chuckle:

Unlike trading high picks for a draft choice (e.g. - Falcons to obtain Julio Jones), hard to see how obtaining a player other than a top franchise QB in his prime could justify giving up two first round picks along with the cap hit for signing the tagged player

pczach
01-22-2018, 05:11 PM
Thanks- maybe this is therapy for me to escape reflecting on the Jax loss and the grim prospect of another Pats championship :chuckle:



A bottle of Crown Royal and sharing my anguish with others here will help get me through this. :alcohol:

Mojouw
01-22-2018, 08:16 PM
All of the responses recently to this thread are why this place keeps me coming back! More insight and useful discussion here than most other NFL "news" sites!

Now if we could all just start getting paid...

Craic
01-22-2018, 09:21 PM
~ good stuff ~

Okay, so with all that said (and I agree with your assessment that his asking price is not realistic), where would you feel comfortable pricewise? Do you think my "47.5 with 23 in guaranteed money and a 2-4 mill tied up in roster bonuses for his last three years of a four-year contract" is too much? Would you move more of the guaranteed money into roster bonuses in seasons 2-4 so it's guaranteed if he is on the roster for that year, but not guaranteed if he's traded or cut before hand?

I do think he's a bit of a freak of nature. I think we have two to three good years left in him. We'd have more if we didn't wear him out like we have, but oh well. It is what it is.

Mach1
01-23-2018, 11:19 AM
Le'Veon Bell Could Be Targeted by Raiders if He Becomes Free Agent

The drama surrounding Le'Veon Bell and the Pittsburgh Steelers got a little more real on Tuesday morning. With fans split between "getting the man paid" and "letting him go," the Steelers themselves are unsure what they will do in the coming weeks.

Sports Illustrated writer Peter King thinks that the Oakland Raiders could and should be the potential frontrunner for signing Le'Veon Bell if the Steelers decide to let him leave.

Bell is already playing financial hardball, so to speak, which means Pittsburgh is going to have to pay up—either for another single season or for a long-term deal that would undoubtedly make Bell the highest-paid back in the game. Because of the possibility of him leaving, Sports Illustrated’s Peter King recently noted that one team that makes sense for Bell as a free agent destination is the Chiefs' own rival, the Raiders!

King is just making a guess here we presume, but the man has had a knack for calling things like this in the past

http://www.12up.com/posts/5956360-le-veon-bell-could-be-targeted-by-raiders-if-he-becomes-free-agent?a_aid=42767

j-d-s
01-23-2018, 11:35 AM
The problem with the non-exclusive tag is that those Rd. 1 picks could as well be somewhere in the 20th pick range which is obvious a lot worse than Top5 picks.

On the plus side, I don't see the Cheats sign Bell. They literally don't ever have a featured RB and certainly won't pay Bell the kind of money he wants. But I could see the Seahawks sign him (if they have the cap space, don't know about that). They are probably one good RB away from being a top contender again...

Born2Steel
01-23-2018, 11:41 AM
Le'Veon Bell Could Be Targeted by Raiders if He Becomes Free Agent

The drama surrounding Le'Veon Bell and the Pittsburgh Steelers got a little more real on Tuesday morning. With fans split between "getting the man paid" and "letting him go," the Steelers themselves are unsure what they will do in the coming weeks.

Sports Illustrated writer Peter King thinks that the Oakland Raiders could and should be the potential frontrunner for signing Le'Veon Bell if the Steelers decide to let him leave.

Bell is already playing financial hardball, so to speak, which means Pittsburgh is going to have to pay up—either for another single season or for a long-term deal that would undoubtedly make Bell the highest-paid back in the game. Because of the possibility of him leaving, Sports Illustrated’s Peter King recently noted that one team that makes sense for Bell as a free agent destination is the Chiefs' own rival, the Raiders!

King is just making a guess here we presume, but the man has had a knack for calling things like this in the past

http://www.12up.com/posts/5956360-le-veon-bell-could-be-targeted-by-raiders-if-he-becomes-free-agent?a_aid=42767

Gruden already sick of BeastMode?

Bell, Cooper, Crabtree, Patterson, and Lynch? That's not very scary. Dysfunctional maybe, but not scary.

SteelerFanInStl
01-23-2018, 11:51 AM
A whole article written about a possibility in Peter King's mind. LMAO!!!

hawaiiansteeler
01-23-2018, 01:08 PM
Paul Zeise: The Steelers should franchise tag Le'Veon Bell Peter Diana/Post-Gazette

PAUL ZEISE
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
JAN 23, 2018

Le’Veon Bell’s contract is the most important decision the Steelers have to make this offseason. Bell is important but that doesn’t necessarily mean the best course of action is to sign him to a long-term deal. In fact, of the three options available, a long-term deal with a lot of guaranteed money makes the least amount of sense. Bell is going to be 27 next February, and most studies suggest that’s when running backs peak and begin to decline.

The Steelers should use the non-exclusive franchise tag on Bell. That way, they’d either have him for one more year or get two first-round picks if he leaves in free agency.

Bell has five seasons and more than 1,500 touches under his belt. He also has been suspended twice under the league’s substance abuse policy. It would be a bad move financially for the Steelers to lock him up for the long term, especially when their offense is built around the passing game. That means the Steelers have two choices: Either let Bell become a free agent or franchise tag him, paying him premium dollars for one more year and then letting him walk away.

to read rest of article:

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/zeise-is-right/2018/01/23/leveon-bell-franchise-tag-contract-negotiation-holdout/stories/201801230117

Born2Steel
01-23-2018, 01:23 PM
Paul Zeise: The Steelers should franchise tag Le'Veon Bell Peter Diana/Post-Gazette

PAUL ZEISE
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
JAN 23, 2018

Le’Veon Bell’s contract is the most important decision the Steelers have to make this offseason. Bell is important but that doesn’t necessarily mean the best course of action is to sign him to a long-term deal. In fact, of the three options available, a long-term deal with a lot of guaranteed money makes the least amount of sense. Bell is going to be 27 next February, and most studies suggest that’s when running backs peak and begin to decline.

The Steelers should use the non-exclusive franchise tag on Bell. That way, they’d either have him for one more year or get two first-round picks if he leaves in free agency.

Bell has five seasons and more than 1,500 touches under his belt. He also has been suspended twice under the league’s substance abuse policy. It would be a bad move financially for the Steelers to lock him up for the long term, especially when their offense is built around the passing game. That means the Steelers have two choices: Either let Bell become a free agent or franchise tag him, paying him premium dollars for one more year and then letting him walk away.

to read rest of article:

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/zeise-is-right/2018/01/23/leveon-bell-franchise-tag-contract-negotiation-holdout/stories/201801230117

That last sentence.

AtlantaDan
01-23-2018, 02:24 PM
Paul Zeise: The Steelers should franchise tag Le'Veon Bell Peter Diana/Post-Gazette

PAUL ZEISE
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
JAN 23, 2018

Le’Veon Bell’s contract is the most important decision the Steelers have to make this offseason. Bell is important but that doesn’t necessarily mean the best course of action is to sign him to a long-term deal. In fact, of the three options available, a long-term deal with a lot of guaranteed money makes the least amount of sense. Bell is going to be 27 next February, and most studies suggest that’s when running backs peak and begin to decline.

The Steelers should use the non-exclusive franchise tag on Bell. That way, they’d either have him for one more year or get two first-round picks if he leaves in free agency.

From Ed B. of the P-G in his chat today

If Bell leaves as a free agent, Steelers most likely would get a third rounder in 2019 for him. ...

No one is going to sign Bell and forfeit two first-round picks....

I just don't see them keeping him under his long-term demands or the huge franchise tag. They don't have a lot of cap room and that would gobble up that and more.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/23/Ed-Bouchette-Steelers-chat-1-23-18/stories/201801230091

This is the current cap situation

Total 2018 cap liabilities: $186,078,086

Dead money: $956,175 (This is included in the above figure.)

2017 carryover: $4,040,611 (This is included in the above figure.)

Projected top 51 2018 cap number: $178,386,911

The following are not yet included.
Pittburgh’s six draft picks: $4,933,532

52nd and 53 roster spots: $1,110,000 (This is minimum but those two spots will be taken up by draft picks. The remaining four draft picks, for simplicity, will bump off four minimum salaries of $555,000 each.)
The 10-man taxi squad: $1.4 million (estimated)

The 2019 carryover: $3.5 million (estimated)

The estimated cap space is: -$14,194,707

While the Steelers will not be over that full amount, they are currently over the cap.

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2018-pittsburgh-steelers-free-agency-news-rumors/2018/1/17/16891524/the-2018-pittsburgh-steelers-salary-cap-situation-kevin-colbert-mike-tomlin-nfl
https://overthecap.com/calculator/pittsburgh-steelers/


Okay, so with all that said (and I agree with your assessment that his asking price is not realistic), where would you feel comfortable pricewise? Do you think my "47.5 with 23 in guaranteed money and a 2-4 mill tied up in roster bonuses for his last three years of a four-year contract" is too much? Would you move more of the guaranteed money into roster bonuses in seasons 2-4 so it's guaranteed if he is on the roster for that year, but not guaranteed if he's traded or cut before hand?

I obviously would not raise the alleged offer from last year and would need a four year deal to amortize the signing bonus. Last year's alleged offer to Bell apparently was frontloaded on guaranteed money in the first two years.

The five-year deal, according to sources, averaged more than $12 million annually. While it could not be determined how much signing bonus or guaranteed money was included in that, the sources said it would have paid more than $30 million in the first two years.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2017/08/18/LeVeon-Bell-contract-agreement-rejection-agent-five-years-12-million-franchise-tag-post-gazette-exclusive/stories/201708180164

"Paid $30 million in the first two years" presumably would be the entire signing bonus (say $15 million?) and base salaries for years one and two ($7.5 million per?). That would put the overall cap hit at $22.5 million for the first two years of the contract (prorated bonus $3.5 million per year for cap purposes), with the remaining three years perhaps having roster bonuses in years 3 and 4 + backloaded higher salary.

By way of comparison, Brown's 5 year deal has a $19 million signing bonus and roster bonuses of $6 million in 2018 and $2.5 million in 2019 - but the hit for salary in 2017 was low since that was the last year of AB's prior contract.

https://overthecap.com/player/antonio-brown/1579/

Steelers could have absorbed a $11 million per year cap hit under the deal, had it been signed last year, through such actions as AB not counting nearly as much against the cap in 2017 as future years, releasing Mitchell in 2018, signing Shazier to a long term deal to significantly reduce his $8 million option year for 2018, and perhaps reworking Ben's deal (no guarantee about Ben playing through 2020 then). Now Bell has less value than he did a year ago and the Steelers apparently are stuck with paying Shazier $8 million in 2018.

If your deal could keep the cap hit at $10 million per in 2018 and 2019 I would offer it - but I doubt Bell would take it. My view is the Steelers should tag him, try to negotiate, then try for a sign and trade before the draft before pulling the tag if nothing works out (as the Panthers did with Josh Norman in 2016). After looking more closely at this year's cap situation I have trouble seeing how they can afford the franchise tag cost.

silver & black
01-23-2018, 04:22 PM
Gruden already sick of BeastMode?

Bell, Cooper, Crabtree, Patterson, and Lynch? That's not very scary. Dysfunctional maybe, but not scary.

I'm sick of BeastMode! You can keep Bell. You can have the others too.... Cooper sucks!

86WARD
01-23-2018, 06:46 PM
A whole article written about a possibility in Peter King's mind. LMAO!!!

Ive been saying it a lot recently but there's a lot of opinion out there that people are mistaking for news. Any hack with a blog now can post an opinion and somebody runs with it as news...when there's little to no fact behind the story.

AtlantaDan
01-23-2018, 06:55 PM
Ive been saying it a lot recently but there's a lot of opinion out there that people are mistaking for news. Any hack with a blog now can post an opinion and somebody runs with it as news...when there's little to no fact behind the story.

In King's defense (and I am no Peter King fan) he made it clear it was a guess in response to a tweeted question - unlike the chum thrown out regularly by Ian Rapoport and Mike Florio no sketchy claims of inside information

955616660043583489
955617824424321024

Bouchette took the same position today based on the Steelers cap situation making another tag payment difficult and assumption Bell is not going to sign a long term deal with the Steelers

Psycho Ward 86
01-23-2018, 07:20 PM
In King's defense (and I am no Peter King fan) he made it clear it was a guess in response to a tweeted question - unlike the chum thrown out regularly by Ian Rapoport and Mike Florio no sketchy claims of inside information

955616660043583489
955617824424321024

Bouchette took the same position today based on the Steelers cap situation making another tag payment difficult and assumption Bell is not going to sign a long term deal with the Steelers

The 2 worst parts of this scenario is:

1) Our salary cap would still be god awful in this scenario, and it wouldnt free us up to do much shopping in March
2) Its very feasible

Born2Steel
01-23-2018, 08:18 PM
I'm sick of BeastMode! You can keep Bell. You can have the others too.... Cooper sucks!

Agreed. I can see the Raiders going hard after skill players this draft to give Carr weapons. Bell's skillset works great here, in this system. I don't know how he would do with the Raiders. I have never been a fan of Crabtree, and used to like Lynch in Buffalo, before the whole 'BeastMode' thing went to his head. Patterson was boom or bust from the beginning and so far, not much boom.

j-d-s
01-24-2018, 09:07 AM
Considering the cap number is not much for RBs I would even consider tagging Bell the next two years.

tube517
01-24-2018, 10:07 AM
Considering the cap number is not much for RBs I would even consider tagging Bell the next two years.

I think you can only tag him one more time since he was tagged in 2017 and is not a QB

DesertSteel
01-24-2018, 10:14 AM
If I was the Steelers decision maker, I'd Transition Tag Bell and let him explore his offers. That gives them the right to match or let him walk. He might have rude awakening when no one wants to give him $15M a season and $50M guaranteed.

Psycho Ward 86
01-24-2018, 10:24 AM
If I was the Steelers decision maker, I'd Transition Tag Bell and let him explore his offers. That gives them the right to match or let him walk. He might have rude awakening when no one wants to give him $15M a season and $50M guaranteed.

There wont be a rude awakening. A lot of these teams can throw silly money at him and it'll barely register a dent in their salary cap: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/

If im the 49ers (over $100 million in cap space) im pulling the trigger right now. They won 5 straight as soon as Garoppolo got there, including 3 in a row to playoff teams. They could start a run immediately with a few moves here and there

DesertSteel
01-24-2018, 10:28 AM
There wont be a rude awakening. A lot of these teams can throw silly money at him and it'll barely register a dent in their salary cap: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/

If im the 49ers (over $100 million in cap space) im pulling the trigger right now. They won 5 straight as soon as Garoppolo got there, including 3 in a row to playoff teams. They could start a run immediately with a few moves here and thereSo you think they'll pay $15M a season with multiple seasons guaranteed for a running back going into his 6th year?

BlackAndGold
01-24-2018, 10:30 AM
There wont be a rude awakening. A lot of these teams can throw silly money at him and it'll barely register a dent in their salary cap: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/

If im the 49ers (over $100 million in cap space) im pulling the trigger right now. They won 5 straight as soon as Garoppolo got there, including 3 in a row to playoff teams. They could start a run immediately with a few moves here and there

Bell with the 49ers...no doubt a title contender.

steelreserve
01-24-2018, 10:30 AM
Considering the cap number is not much for RBs I would even consider tagging Bell the next two years.

I don't think you're allowed to do it three years in a row anymore, I think they made a rule about that.

I can tell you with 90 percent certainty how this is going to turn out. Bell gets the franchise tag and we try to offer him a long-term deal, but he's completely unreasonable and basically won't even listen to it. I'mma get 15. Then he does the same thing as last season where he lets the deadline for signing a new contract pass, then refuses to show up and practice with the team even though he gains nothing. Only this time there's even more bitching and moaning, and here essentially declares that he'll be playing somewhere else next year. Then he has another shitty start to the season, except this time picks up a nagging hamstring or groin injury or something, and goes for like 900/400 yards in 11 games. I'mma get 15. Then we're like 9-6 going into the last week of the season and need to win or get improbable amounts of help to make the playoffs, and we lose to the Ravens in the morning game, so we're counting on like 5 things to go our way and 4 of them do, then it comes down to the Patriots beating the Jets in the night game and of course they tank it, and half the people say what a bunch of filthy douchebags the Patriots are, and half say if lose to the Browns and (insert bad team #2) we don't deserve to make the playoffs, and both are right. Then two-thirds of the people say good riddance to Bell and he shot himself in the foot with his selfish holdouts, and a third of the people say he's still the best back in the league and it was the team's fault for not paying him what he wanted, and he ought to get a contract based on a projected 1600 and 800 yards if he'd played a full season and shown up prepared. And some team actually gives it to him, only the joke's on him because he gets released after two up-and-down seasons in which it's discovered patience and hesitation doesn't work as well with a shitty offensive line, instead it gets you Willie Parker'd, so he ends up with like $18 million in guaranteed money and that's it. Then he DOES end up playing for the Patriots, who hopefully have started falling apart by then though.

tl;dr version - Mike Wallace.


One thing that's really been noticeable about Bell is that I've rarely if ever heard him talking about things like "I want to win the Super Bowl" or even "I'm fired up to stick it to the Ravens and the Bengals this year and win the division." It's always "**I** want to be the best running back in the league," "**I** want people to appreciate that I'm the best and give me respect," "**I** want to be the highest paid." Me me me, gimme gimme gimme. You don't hear that from Brown, or from anybody else on the team really. Maybe Bryant, but even he seemed to wise up. At any rate, that does not strike me as a guy who's going to play here for much longer, and it would probably be the same no matter which team he was on, he'd find something to be unhappy about and make a drama-filled exit.

Craic
01-24-2018, 10:31 AM
If I was the Steelers decision maker, I'd Transition Tag Bell and let him explore his offers. That gives them the right to match or let him walk. He might have rude awakening when no one wants to give him $15M a season and $50M guaranteed.

Naa, I'd prefer the franchise tag due to the 2 first-round picks we'd get. Just to spite Bell, I'd almost be will to drop the exclusive tag on him, but with our QB situation in a couple of years, I'd think dangling Bell out there for 2 first round pics would be worthwhile. Even if those are bottom of the round picks, say, somewhere in the mid twenties, when you pair one of them with our first round pick at 28, it gets us up to picks 6-8. Moreover, we'd still get two first round picks the following year.

DesertSteel
01-24-2018, 10:36 AM
If talent alone won super bowls, the Patriots wouldn't be where they are today. Cheating aside, players with less talent are coached to do their job. 4 YPC is replaceable through the draft.

- - - Updated - - -


Naa, I'd prefer the franchise tag due to the 2 first-round picks we'd get. Just to spite Bell, I'd almost be will to drop the exclusive tag on him, but with our QB situation in a couple of years, I'd think dangling Bell out there for 2 first round pics would be worthwhile. Even if those are bottom of the round picks, say, somewhere in the mid twenties, when you pair one of them with our first round pick at 28, it gets us up to picks 6-8. Moreover, we'd still get two first round picks the following year.
Nobody is giving up two 1sts for Bell. All the franchise is going to do is pull the drama from 2017 into 2018 right from the start. I, for one, am sick of the me-first drama. Maybe Tomlin isn't, but I am.

Craic
01-24-2018, 10:36 AM
One thing that's really been noticeable about Bell is that I've rarely if ever heard him talking about things like "I want to win the Super Bowl" or even "I'm fired up to stick it to the Ravens and the Bengals this year and win the division." It's always "**I** want to be the best running back in the league," "**I** want people to appreciate that I'm the best and give me respect," "**I** want to be the highest paid." Me me me, gimme gimme gimme. You don't hear that from Brown, or from anybody else on the team really. Maybe Bryant, but even he seemed to wise up. At any rate, that does not strike me as a guy who's going to play here for much longer, and it would probably be the same no matter which team he was on, he'd find something to be unhappy about and make a drama-filled exit.

Sadly, I think you're absolutely correct about that. Now, I don't mind him saying, "I want to be the best RB in the league"; because that will help the team. The others are the problem; moreover, it comes across exactly like you say: "Me me me, gimme gimme gimme."

(BTW, :chuckle: at the Willie P. comment. Was that special for me?)

Craic
01-24-2018, 10:42 AM
If talent alone won super bowls, the Patriots wouldn't be where they are today. Cheating aside, players with less talent are coached to do their job. 4 YPC is replaceable through the draft.

- - - Updated - - -


Nobody is giving up two 1sts for Bell. All the franchise is going to do is pull the drama from 2017 into 2018 right from the start. I, for one, am sick of the me-first drama. Maybe Tomlin isn't, but I am.
My point with that is it is the best of both worlds. It's allows Bell to test the market and find out just exactly how much he is worth, but it also means we aren't going to let him walk this year without getting anything from losing him. Personally, I couldn't care less about the drama. 13-3 with a drama filled season shows me this team can handle it. So, let him have his little drama-queen moments, then give him the ball and wear his arse out next year slogging through the regular season while we prepare to draft a running back the following year. Or, if some team is dumb enough to sign him, we get our future franchise QB or trade the picks and stockpile to move even higher in the draft for a franchise QB the following year. The only other option to that scenario is he comes to his senses and signs the contract the Steelers offer him. It's very unlikely, but there's no other options but those three, and those are all good options for the Steelers.

DesertSteel
01-24-2018, 10:47 AM
My point with that is it is the best of both worlds. It's allows Bell to test the market and find out just exactly how much he is worth, but it also means we aren't going to let him walk this year without getting anything from losing him. Personally, I couldn't care less about the drama. 13-3 with a drama filled season shows me this team can handle it. So, let him have his little drama-queen moments, then give him the ball and wear his arse out next year slogging through the regular season while we prepare to draft a running back the following year. Or, if some team is dumb enough to sign him, we get our future franchise QB or trade the picks and stockpile to move even higher in the draft for a franchise QB the following year. The only other option to that scenario is he comes to his senses and signs the contract the Steelers offer him. It's very unlikely, but there's no other options but those three, and those are all good options for the Steelers.
So that would be a different type of tag than he has last year? Because he didn't entertain offers last year. If that's the case, I can see your point.

13-3, 10-6, 9-7, 12-4......... really no difference if you're going one-and-done when it matters.

Mojouw
01-24-2018, 10:53 AM
If talent alone won super bowls, the Patriots wouldn't be where they are today. Cheating aside, players with less talent are coached to do their job. 4 YPC is replaceable through the draft.

- - - Updated - - -


Nobody is giving up two 1sts for Bell. All the franchise is going to do is pull the drama from 2017 into 2018 right from the start. I, for one, am sick of the me-first drama. Maybe Tomlin isn't, but I am.

I honestly believe that there is a massive disconnect between fans and players about contract issues/"drama" in the NFL. For fans the issue is an emotional one based on allegiance to the team and/or liking a specific player. This makes our perceptions and responses to "drama" extremely strong and heavily colored by our emotional feelings.

For players, as Michael Corleone said "It's not personal. It's strictly business." I think they only care about how hard guys work and how well they perform between the white lines on Sunday. The rest of this stuff, for them, is extraneous noise catered to the fans and not of their concern. While I totally understand that Bell's #'s were down across the board this season, I'm not convinced that any one of his teammates would question his effort on Sundays. Rarely, if ever, see Bell make a "business decision" - in fact quite the opposite, he frequently lowers his head and plows forward.

Does any of the above mean he should get the richest RB contract ever? I don't know. And I'm not sure I really care enough to passionately argue about it anymore. For the 2018 Steelers it likely comes down to how Fichtner wants to run his offense. Haley had Ben driving the car, AB as the high-octane fuel that powered the ride, but Bell was the engine - most plays "keyed" of him in some way, if only to distract/misdirect the defense. We still don't really know how Fichtner wants to do things. One would assume there will be some changes at the very least. Perhaps one is to de-emphasis the role of the RB and not have the bulk of the formations be built around "What crazy thing mightwe do with Leveon Bell this time?!"

steelreserve
01-24-2018, 10:54 AM
So you think they'll pay $15M a season with multiple seasons guaranteed for a running back going into his 6th year?

No, they'll offer him a frontloaded poison-pill contract that we can't match because of our cap space issues with the way it's structured.

BlackAndGold
01-24-2018, 11:02 AM
956210149651345408

956210398436392964

Mojouw
01-24-2018, 11:09 AM
956210149651345408

956210398436392964

So what you're saying is that rampant fan speculation and overwrought emotional responses when lacking all the required information is NOT a path to solid conclusions?

Man, I gotta go off and rethink my entire life.

Psycho Ward 86
01-24-2018, 11:14 AM
So you think they'll pay $15M a season with multiple seasons guaranteed for a running back going into his 6th year?

what player with a big contract has ever had entire seasons with fully guaranteed money?

assuming you meant $15 million/season with a lot of guaranteed money, i think the 49ers would be willing to do it. why wouldnt they? Carlos Hyde is a free agent and this would be a monster upgrade. The 49ers free agent list is pretty light relative to other teams and they have more capital than anyone else.

the browns could easily poach him as well. makes a lot of sense: $112.5 million in cap space, every QB's best friend is a good run game, Isaiah Crowell is a free agent, Todd Haley is the new offensive coordinator

colts? $84 million in cap space, they dont have shit for running backs

jets? $80 million in cap space, matt forte can be cut easily and he's old and washed up, just Bilal Powell other than him

buccaneers? $65 million in cap space, all their RB's either suck or are never healthy enough to play

lions at $49 million in cap space would be another logical landing spot. Stafford has always had one of the league's worst run games

All it takes is one team. And right now, were one of only 3 teams that are already negative in cap space

Bell isnt staying unless he wants to be here badly

- - - Updated - - -


No, they'll offer him a frontloaded poison-pill contract that we can't match because of our cap space issues with the way it's structured.

i can totally see that happening. The 49ers can be contenders immediately if Garoppolo keeps it up, they grab Bell, and have a good offseason

steelreserve
01-24-2018, 11:25 AM
Sadly, I think you're absolutely correct about that. Now, I don't mind him saying, "I want to be the best RB in the league"; because that will help the team. The others are the problem; moreover, it comes across exactly like you say: "Me me me, gimme gimme gimme."

(BTW, :chuckle: at the Willie P. comment. Was that special for me?)

Heh, no, I just still think of him as the standard for overrated running that becomes ineffective when you take away his support. Although I have to admit I did think of you when I posted that. (I don't think Bell is even in the same ballpark as Willie Parker, by the way, he's 100x better - but I do see that a critical element of his game could get knocked out from under him with a bad line. Whereas Parker mostly just piled up stats against shitty opponents.)

On your main point - yeah, everyone in the league is a competitor who wants to be the best; you probably wouldn't make it this far if you weren't. But there is a fine line between that being a good thing because motivating yourself to play well helps the team, and a bad thing because putting yourself first gets in the way of the team.

I don't doubt Bell gives anything less than 100% on game day, but things like the idiot training camp holdout - that meant that his 100% was only as good as 50% if he was prepared, so the result was just as bad as half-assing it.

SteelerFanInStl
01-24-2018, 11:44 AM
956210149651345408

956210398436392964



Imagine that. Yinzers getting all up in arms about something that wasn't even an actual issue.

DesertSteel
01-24-2018, 11:53 AM
the browns could easily poach him as well. makes a lot of sense: $112.5 million in cap space, every QB's best friend is a good run game, Isaiah Crowell is a free agent, Todd Haley is the new offensive coordinator

colts? $84 million in cap space, they dont have shit for running backs

jets? $80 million in cap space, matt forte can be cut easily and he's old and washed up, just Bilal Powell other than him

buccaneers? $65 million in cap space, all their RB's either suck or are never healthy enough to play

lions at $49 million in cap space would be another logical landing spot. Stafford has always had one of the league's worst run games

All it takes is one team. And right now, were one of only 3 teams that are already negative in cap space

Bell isnt staying unless he wants to be here badly


Good riddance to him. Buyer beware because he's already on the decline.

Mojouw
01-24-2018, 12:16 PM
So basically

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/fe/fe6e47d4f96b82d947c56de2fe47efa508236ba1c07998cda0 0bbd6ae1b010aa.jpg

Wonder if anyone is going to walk back their bold "hawt tawkes" regarding locker room discipline, buddy buddy coaches, and me-first players. Now, of course, Bell could be full of crap...:stirthepot:

Born2Steel
01-24-2018, 12:25 PM
I don't know if Bell is in decline or not. I do know that he IS the best at what he does. So if 75%-90% Bell is what he has left, it's still better than all of the others currently. And that's good enough to either keep around, or get some value back.

Psycho Ward 86
01-24-2018, 12:30 PM
956210149651345408

956210398436392964

makes me feel a little better. all i know is, if Bell doesnt get an extension before free agency hits, im confident hes gone. I think Colbert knows it too. We dont have the power to out offer anybody in March

SteelerFanInStl
01-24-2018, 12:45 PM
So basically

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/fe/fe6e47d4f96b82d947c56de2fe47efa508236ba1c07998cda0 0bbd6ae1b010aa.jpg

Wonder if anyone is going to walk back their bold "hawt tawkes" regarding locker room discipline, buddy buddy coaches, and me-first players. Now, of course, Bell could be full of crap...:stirthepot:

LOL, no, that never happens.

AtlantaDan
01-24-2018, 01:12 PM
So basically

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/fe/fe6e47d4f96b82d947c56de2fe47efa508236ba1c07998cda0 0bbd6ae1b010aa.jpg

Wonder if anyone is going to walk back their bold "hawt tawkes" regarding locker room discipline, buddy buddy coaches, and me-first players. Now, of course, Bell could be full of crap...:stirthepot:

Not me

There is a body of work regarding this team acting out for several years (multiple drug suspensions, Brown's excessive celebration penalties/Facebook charades, Bryant's midseason pouting, Harrison apparently pulling all sorts of shit for which he was rewarded with his release, Mitchell acting the fool, Bell's idiotic tweeting, Ben's Tuesday morning radio psychodramas, Tomlin's interview with Dungy) beyond whether Bell properly or improperly missed the walkthrough. A big reason the story on Bell and coaches being late gained credibility was the shitshow this team has run since 2014 when Blount & Bell sparked up on the way to the airport for an exhibition game (notice who is center stage for so much of this nonsense?).

As Peter King put it this week, the Steelers are "a talented but troubled team."

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/01/22/eagles-patriots-super-bowl-52-nick-foles-tom-brady-peter-king-mmqb

Of course David DeCastro knows more about that than we do. :rolleyes:

As far as anyone getting their hopes up regarding a long term contract with Bell, he also spoke with the P-G, as recounted today

Bell turned down a long-term contract (http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2017/08/18/LeVeon-Bell-contract-agreement-rejection-agent-five-years-12-million-franchise-tag-post-gazette-exclusive/stories/201708180164) last summer that guaranteed him $30 million over the first two years of the contract and $42 million over the first three years.

When asked if he would take the same offer from the Steelers this year, Bell flatly said no.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/24/le-veon-bell-contract-steelers-franchise-tag-nfl-pro-bowl/stories/201801240119

Anyone think the Steelers should or will raise their offer from the one Bell (but allegedly not his agent) rejected? :noidea:

Shoes
01-24-2018, 01:13 PM
If talent alone won super bowls, the Patriots wouldn't be where they are today. Cheating aside, players with less talent are coached to do their job. 4 YPC is replaceable through the draft.

- - - Updated - - -


Nobody is giving up two 1sts for Bell. All the franchise is going to do is pull the drama from 2017 into 2018 right from the start. I for one, am sick of the me-first drama. Maybe Tomlin isn't, but I am.

If someone will pay him 15m, someone will give up a round 1 for Bell. Maybe a R1 and a later pick. I'd explore it, no hurt in trying.

Mojouw
01-24-2018, 01:29 PM
Not me

There is a body of work regarding this team acting out for several years (multiple drug suspensions, Brown's excessive celebration penalties/Facebook charades, Bryant's midseason pouting, Harrison apparently pulling all sorts of shit for which he was rewarded with his release, Mitchell acting the fool, Bell's idiotic tweeting, Ben's Tuesday morning radio psychodramas, Tomlin's interview with Dungy) beyond whether Bell properly or improperly missed the walkthrough. A big reason the story on Bell and coaches being late gained credibility was the shitshow this team has run since 2014 when Blount & Bell sparked up on the way to the airport for an exhibition game.

Of course David DeCastro knows more about that than we do. :rolleyes:

As far as anyone getting their hopes up regarding a long term contract with Bell, he also spoke with the P-G

Bell turned down a long-term contract (http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2017/08/18/LeVeon-Bell-contract-agreement-rejection-agent-five-years-12-million-franchise-tag-post-gazette-exclusive/stories/201708180164) last summer that guaranteed him $30 million over the first two years of the contract and $42 million over the first three years.

When asked if he would take the same offer from the Steelers this year, Bell flatly said no.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/24/le-veon-bell-contract-steelers-franchise-tag-nfl-pro-bowl/stories/201801240119

Anyone think the Steelers should or will going to raise their offer? :noidea:

Honestly, I just can't. We could engage in a point by point back and forth about this issue, but it is just ingrained opinions at this point. Neither one of us is going to sway the other.

I mean this will all respect to you and other posters, I think a significant percentage of how each of us feels or reacts to the "drama" issues/episodes is a generational one.

Depending on what your baseline is for how people are expected to act, you have a varying degree of "outrage" over certain issues. For instance, I just assume that NFL players, particularly those under 30, are going to just be a constant stream of unending nonsense and BS on any social media platform. I also give about zero credence to anything anyone says on most social media platforms as very few heavy Twitter users (for instance) have much perception of the statements they make on that platform being permanent.

None of this makes me right and others wrong, but I think we should all acknowledge that the decisions and actions of 20 year olds are going to be increasingly incomprehensible to us fans as we get to be years or multiple decades older than the players.

As to Bell's contract, you can take the very next statements attributed to Bell from the same article you cite and take the entire discussion in another direction:

"When asked if he would take the same offer from the Steelers this year, Bell flatly said no. He also said there were details in the contract that made him hesitant to sign it though he did not specify what his concerns were.
“There were a lot of other things that were in the contract that didn’t get released,” Bell said. “Obviously, I can’t really get into it. But I think we’re a lot further along at this point in the year than we were at this time last year. We should come to an agreement and hopefully everything will get done.”

Most of the reporting focuses on raw dollar amounts (and even Bell alludes to this at the end of the PG piece) but I have long thought this focus is incorrect. I strongly suspect that Bell (or someone around him) is a bit smarter than we are giving him/them credit for and issues such as guarantees, performance bonuses, when the dead cap money flips so Bell is easy to cut, etc are really what is holding things up. Recent big $$ deals done by the Steelers are usually 1-3 year deals and then a bunch of fairly expensive "option" years for the team where the player can make a ton of money, but the team can also cut them for far far far less.

I guess we shall see...

SteelMember
01-24-2018, 01:35 PM
Le'Veon Bell encouraged by talks on new deal with Steelers

Le'Veon Bell and the Pittsburgh Steelers have made significant progress on a contract extension, the star running back said Wednesday after Pro Bowl practice, Jeremy Fowler of ESPN reports.

The Steelers have presented a contract offer.

"We are a lot closer than we were last year," Bell said.

In 2017, Bell turned down a long-term contract and played on a $12.1-million franchise tag. A second tag would be worth around $14.5 million, but Bell told ESPN earlier this month he will consider sitting out the season or retiring if an extension is not reached.

also stated in the article, and more to this thread:

Bell also addressed the report from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette that he blew off the Saturday walkthrough before the playoff loss to the Jacksonville Jaguars. Bell said he had a personal matter, about which the Steelers knew.

"It is what it is," he said. Multiple sources classified Bell as mildly late for the 30-minute session but not a distraction leading into the game.

http://theredzone.org/Blog-Description/EntryId/67987/Le-Veon-Bell-encouraged-by-talks-on-new-deal-with-Steelers

SteelerFanInStl
01-24-2018, 01:47 PM
Honestly, I just can't. We could engage in a point by point back and forth about this issue, but it is just ingrained opinions at this point. Neither one of us is going to sway the other.

I mean this will all respect to you and other posters, I think a significant percentage of how each of us feels or reacts to the "drama" issues/episodes is a generational one.

Depending on what your baseline is for how people are expected to act, you have a varying degree of "outrage" over certain issues. For instance, I just assume that NFL players, particularly those under 30, are going to just be a constant stream of unending nonsense and BS on any social media platform. I also give about zero credence to anything anyone says on most social media platforms as very few heavy Twitter users (for instance) have much perception of the statements they make on that platform being permanent.

None of this makes me right and others wrong, but I think we should all acknowledge that the decisions and actions of 20 year olds are going to be increasingly incomprehensible to us fans as we get to be years or multiple decades older than the players.

As to Bell's contract, you can take the very next statements attributed to Bell from the same article you cite and take the entire discussion in another direction:

"When asked if he would take the same offer from the Steelers this year, Bell flatly said no. He also said there were details in the contract that made him hesitant to sign it though he did not specify what his concerns were.
“There were a lot of other things that were in the contract that didn’t get released,” Bell said. “Obviously, I can’t really get into it. But I think we’re a lot further along at this point in the year than we were at this time last year. We should come to an agreement and hopefully everything will get done.”

Most of the reporting focuses on raw dollar amounts (and even Bell alludes to this at the end of the PG piece) but I have long thought this focus is incorrect. I strongly suspect that Bell (or someone around him) is a bit smarter than we are giving him/them credit for and issues such as guarantees, performance bonuses, when the dead cap money flips so Bell is easy to cut, etc are really what is holding things up. Recent big $$ deals done by the Steelers are usually 1-3 year deals and then a bunch of fairly expensive "option" years for the team where the player can make a ton of money, but the team can also cut them for far far far less.

I guess we shall see...

Good post. I agree completely. The amount of over reaction to things that people read on the internet is comical, especially considering that any fool with a computer or a smart phone can call themselves a "sports journalist" these days. People tweet/write things strictly to cause controversy/drama because that's what gets them attention.

AtlantaDan
01-24-2018, 01:57 PM
Honestly, I just can't. We could engage in a point by point back and forth about this issue, but it is just ingrained opinions at this point. Neither one of us is going to sway the other.

I mean this will all respect to you and other posters, I think a significant percentage of how each of us feels or reacts to the "drama" issues/episodes is a generational one.

Depending on what your baseline is for how people are expected to act, you have a varying degree of "outrage" over certain issues. For instance, I just assume that NFL players, particularly those under 30, are going to just be a constant stream of unending nonsense and BS on any social media platform. I also give about zero credence to anything anyone says on most social media platforms as very few heavy Twitter users (for instance) have much perception of the statements they make on that platform being permanent.

None of this makes me right and others wrong, but I think we should all acknowledge that the decisions and actions of 20 year olds are going to be increasingly incomprehensible to us fans as we get to be years or multiple decades older than the players.

As to Bell's contract, you can take the very next statements attributed to Bell from the same article you cite and take the entire discussion in another direction:

"When asked if he would take the same offer from the Steelers this year, Bell flatly said no. He also said there were details in the contract that made him hesitant to sign it though he did not specify what his concerns were.
“There were a lot of other things that were in the contract that didn’t get released,” Bell said. “Obviously, I can’t really get into it. But I think we’re a lot further along at this point in the year than we were at this time last year. We should come to an agreement and hopefully everything will get done.”

Most of the reporting focuses on raw dollar amounts (and even Bell alludes to this at the end of the PG piece) but I have long thought this focus is incorrect. I strongly suspect that Bell (or someone around him) is a bit smarter than we are giving him/them credit for and issues such as guarantees, performance bonuses, when the dead cap money flips so Bell is easy to cut, etc are really what is holding things up. Recent big $$ deals done by the Steelers are usually 1-3 year deals and then a bunch of fairly expensive "option" years for the team where the player can make a ton of money, but the team can also cut them for far far far less.

I guess we shall see...

Agreed we will disagree on whether the Steelers locker room is significantly more dysfunctional, at least insofar as what is publicized, than other teams (see, e.g., New England Patriots) and whether that has reached the point it adversely impacted the performance of the team.

You apparently regard the reaction to how the Steelers behave to be significantly "generational."

I respectfullly submit there is more to it than that, although it is always comforting to peg those who disagree with you as being mired in the past :chuckle:

This was a pretty clear shot from a 28 year old

If you're a third-party bystander, how could you not look at us and say, 'Look how arrogant they are to think they can beat a team that beat them handily at their place .' It makes no sense to me."
[I]http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22112183/pittsburgh-steelers-guard-david-decastro-blame-jacksonville-jaguars-feeling-disrespected

This was a more veiled one from a 29 year old

There’s a lot of things and players involved, players inclusive, that we have to change to take our game to the next level — to be the dominant team that doesn’t lose a game at home in the playoffs.”
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/15/alejandro-villanueva-steelers-jaguars-nfl-playoffs-2017/stories/201801150115

:drink:

Mojouw
01-24-2018, 02:40 PM
Agreed we will disagree on whether the Steelers locker room is significantly more dysfunctional, at least insofar as what is publicized, than other teams (see, e.g., New England Patriots) and whether that has reached the point it adversely impacted the performance of the team.

You apparently regard the reaction to how the Steelers behave to be significantly "generational."

I respectfullly submit there is more to it than that, although it is always comforting to peg those who disagree with you as being mired in the past

This was a pretty clear shot from a 28 year old

If you're a third-party bystander, how could you not look at us and say, 'Look how arrogant they are to think they can beat a team that beat them handily at their place .' It makes no sense to me."
[I]http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22112183/pittsburgh-steelers-guard-david-decastro-blame-jacksonville-jaguars-feeling-disrespected

This was a more veiled one from a 29 year old

There’s a lot of things and players involved, players inclusive, that we have to change to take our game to the next level — to be the dominant team that doesn’t lose a game at home in the playoffs.”
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/15/alejandro-villanueva-steelers-jaguars-nfl-playoffs-2017/stories/201801150115

:drink:

You are conflating my responses with those of players. Fans and player reactions/motivations are totally separate things - a position I have long held.

As for players, they will mumble a bunch of nonsense about being "disrespected" and "talked down to" at the drop of a hat. The Jags talk more crap than anyone in the league. The Eagles spent the better part of a month rambling on and on about despite being the #1 seed in the NFL "no one respected them" and blah blah blah. The thing is ALL of that kind of talk comes from the internet and the media. It isn't like the Steelers were like "Duuurrrrrr. The Jags suck.....I haven't watched film in 10 days and practiced in 2 weeks......PATRIOTS WE"RE COMING FOR YOU!!!!"

Again, take the rest of the AV quote - I can't read the PG article because they want me to register for an account - but I have seen AV's comments elsewhere and he also talks about how he has no idea what it takes to win a SB and he can be talking about almost anything. You choose to read it as some sort of indictment of a locker room run amuck. I don't.

I fail to understand why Steelers fans (the coaches and players seem to be able to do this) can not accept "Butt Kicking" as an answer for a loss. It is almost like no one wants to admit that their beloved Steelers can actually be "worse" than another NFL team. The Steelers front 7 absolutely failed to do anything positive against the Jags - but all anyone wants to talk about is the locker room and when teams should execute an onsides kick. Again, that is like laying on the ground bleeding out from a stab wound and really wishing you hadn't also broken your toe when you fell.

Or we could talk about why Hargrave played 23 snaps to LT Walton's 27 and Alualu's 17. It certainly wasn't because Walton and Alualu were subbing for Heyward and Tuitt - those two played 87 and 93 percent of the defensive snaps. So what we can likely deduce is that the middle of the Steelers run defense front was patched together during the game due to some sort of injury to Hargrave. Anyone want to bet me that back-ups almost across the board right down the middle of the front 7 had a negative impact on the Steelers run defense? Anyone else want to bet me that since Davis, Mitchell, and Haden (as the Steelers threw DBs at the Jags in all out effort to stop the bleeding against the run) led the team in tackles that at least one of them was late rotating onto the WR on the long pass play (the play that may have actually been the dagger) due to "gambling" or "freelancing" to stop the run? What about discussing how on the much maligned 4th and 1 toss-sweep (a play call I actually do hate) McDonald appears to just totally whiff on his block at the edge allowing the play to get blown up?

THere can be actual reasons related to what happened between the white lines from opening kick to ending whistle that more than adequately explain the Steelers losing at home to the Jags. But everyone seems pretty cool with skipping over those and going straight to off field stuff, 20-20 hindsight, and amateur psychology to explain things. Seems more than a bit strange to me...

AtlantaDan
01-24-2018, 03:03 PM
You are conflating my responses with those of players. Fans and player reactions/motivations are totally separate things - a position I have long held.

As for players, they will mumble a bunch of nonsense about being "disrespected" and "talked down to" at the drop of a hat. The Jags talk more crap than anyone in the league. The Eagles spent the better part of a month rambling on and on about despite being the #1 seed in the NFL "no one respected them" and blah blah blah. The thing is ALL of that kind of talk comes from the internet and the media. It isn't like the Steelers were like "Duuurrrrrr. The Jags suck.....I haven't watched film in 10 days and practiced in 2 weeks......PATRIOTS WE"RE COMING FOR YOU!!!!"

Again, take the rest of the AV quote - I can't read the PG article because they want me to register for an account - but I have seen AV's comments elsewhere and he also talks about how he has no idea what it takes to win a SB and he can be talking about almost anything. You choose to read it as some sort of indictment of a locker room run amuck. I don't.

I fail to understand why Steelers fans (the coaches and players seem to be able to do this) can not accept "Butt Kicking" as an answer for a loss. It is almost like no one wants to admit that their beloved Steelers can actually be "worse" than another NFL team. The Steelers front 7 absolutely failed to do anything positive against the Jags - but all anyone wants to talk about is the locker room and when teams should execute an onsides kick. Again, that is like laying on the ground bleeding out from a stab wound and really wishing you hadn't also broken your toe when you fell.

Or we could talk about why Hargrave played 23 snaps to LT Walton's 27 and Alualu's 17. It certainly wasn't because Walton and Alualu were subbing for Heyward and Tuitt - those two played 87 and 93 percent of the defensive snaps. So what we can likely deduce is that the middle of the Steelers run defense front was patched together during the game due to some sort of injury to Hargrave. Anyone want to bet me that back-ups almost across the board right down the middle of the front 7 had a negative impact on the Steelers run defense? Anyone else want to bet me that since Davis, Mitchell, and Haden (as the Steelers threw DBs at the Jags in all out effort to stop the bleeding against the run) led the team in tackles that at least one of them was late rotating onto the WR on the long pass play (the play that may have actually been the dagger) due to "gambling" or "freelancing" to stop the run? What about discussing how on the much maligned 4th and 1 toss-sweep (a play call I actually do hate) McDonald appears to just totally whiff on his block at the edge allowing the play to get blown up?

THere can be actual reasons related to what happened between the white lines from opening kick to ending whistle that more than adequately explain the Steelers losing at home to the Jags. But everyone seems pretty cool with skipping over those and going straight to off field stuff, 20-20 hindsight, and amateur psychology to explain things. Seems more than a bit strange to me...

Regarding the "off the field" stuff to be counterproductive does not mean "everyone" is going "straight to" it as the sole reason for the loss.

If you want to frame your argument by building up that straw man and ignore posts by me on matters such as Hargrave getting limited snaps that was apparently due to injury appearing to be a factor in the defensive line being dominated by the Jags and the defense being unable to recover from the loss of the player around which it was built, Ryan Shazier, go for it. It is possible to attribute both on and off the field factors as contributing to a loss without being strange, although you may disagree.

Congrats on stirring the pot :thumbsup:

Mojouw
01-24-2018, 03:22 PM
Regarding the "off the field" stuff to be counterproductive does not mean "everyone" is going "straight to" it as the sole reason for the loss.

If you want to frame your argument by building up that straw man and ignore posts by me on matters such as Hargrave getting limited snaps that was apparently due to injury appearing to be a factor in the defensive line being dominated by the Jags and the defense being unable to recover from the loss of the player around which it was built, Ryan Shazier, go for it. It is possible to attribute both on and off the field factors as contributing to a loss without being strange, although you may disagree.

Should have been far clearer. I was not ignoring your numerous posts on the issues you pointed out. Nor was I attempting to argue that "everyone" was solely pointing to off the field issues.

BUT. BUT...look through the threads on this board in the past two weeks or so AND despite this being a broad brush description --- there is a great deal of fuming and venting (???) regarding how the locker room issues (of which there may be far fewer than early reports speculated about) and terrible coaching decisions are holding back a juggernaut of a roster that should be beating teams left, right, and center while collecting multiple Lombardi trophies.

While it is not my intention to lump everyone into this category nor say that these types of issues play no role in on- the field results; it is my intention to resist every discussion regarding the 2017 and 2018 Steelers to simply devolve into a repetitive and reductive argument about entitled players, unfocused something or other, and how poorly coached a 13-3 NFL team is.

For me, the off the field stuff is not really interesting or useful to talk about. There is simply far too much we don't know. But on the field stuff is far easier for me to quantify and analyze from my lofty perch as an NFL fan sitting in front of a computer and furiously typing out messages that only I care about :smoker:. I would rather spend pages and pages of posts talking about who missed a block, what the Jags did that stymied the pass rush, etc rather than a series of debates where opinions are traded as facts and emotion trumps reason. Again, doesn't make me right and it doesn't make me insightful -- it is just my bias.

Craic
01-24-2018, 04:13 PM
So that would be a different type of tag than he has last year? Because he didn't entertain offers last year. If that's the case, I can see your point.

13-3, 10-6, 9-7, 12-4......... really no difference if you're going one-and-done when it matters.
I doubt it's a different tag as it's the normal tag offered. The difference is the fact that it's a new off-season, and things like salary cap change every year. But, even more than that, it's the tag that gives the Steelers the best options going forward. If we give him the exclusive franchise tag, we have to pay him even more. If we give him the transition tag, then we only get a right of first refusal, but nothing if we do refuse. I fail to see why we shouldn't leverage the best situation dealing with a RB that still projects to be a top 5 back in the league next year. And, 2 first round picks or having that back play for you one more year seems to be the best scenario. Of course, he can choose to retire, but that denies the rest of the league a top 5 back, which also works to our benefit.


Heh, no, I just still think of him as the standard for overrated running that becomes ineffective when you take away his support. Although I have to admit I did think of you when I posted that. (I don't think Bell is even in the same ballpark as Willie Parker, by the way, he's 100x better - but I do see that a critical element of his game could get knocked out from under him with a bad line. Whereas Parker mostly just piled up stats against shitty opponents.)

On your main point - yeah, everyone in the league is a competitor who wants to be the best; you probably wouldn't make it this far if you weren't. But there is a fine line between that being a good thing because motivating yourself to play well helps the team, and a bad thing because putting yourself first gets in the way of the team.

I don't doubt Bell gives anything less than 100% on game day, but things like the idiot training camp holdout - that meant that his 100% was only as good as 50% if he was prepared, so the result was just as bad as half-assing it.

I disagree about piling up stats against bad opponents. However, I think I understand your argument. If I might rephrase it, would you agree with this: The problem with Willie P. was that he was a 1-tool RB. He was fast. When that speed was shut down due to a bad line, injury, age, etc, there was nothing special about him at all. On the other hand, Bell is at least a 4-tool RB. He can make people miss; he can run over people; he is very quick (short bursts of speed); and he is a very good WR as well. If so, then I don't think Willie P. was overrated. Everyone knew he was a 1-tool RB. I think what might have been overrated was the importance of that tool for a RB. Does that make sense?

Now, as for Bell, the difference is that if the O line breaks down, he can still be used as a WR. Moreover, we've seen him make people miss in the backfield several times, and even when he doesn't, he seems to always fall forward.

steelreserve
01-24-2018, 04:34 PM
I disagree about piling up stats against bad opponents. However, I think I understand your argument. If I might rephrase it, would you agree with this: The problem with Willie P. was that he was a 1-tool RB. He was fast. When that speed was shut down due to a bad line, injury, age, etc, there was nothing special about him at all. On the other hand, Bell is at least a 4-tool RB. He can make people miss; he can run over people; he is very quick (short bursts of speed); and he is a very good WR as well. If so, then I don't think Willie P. was overrated. Everyone knew he was a 1-tool RB. I think what might have been overrated was the importance of that tool for a RB. Does that make sense?

Now, as for Bell, the difference is that if the O line breaks down, he can still be used as a WR. Moreover, we've seen him make people miss in the backfield several times, and even when he doesn't, he seems to always fall forward.

That's what makes him a much better running back than Parker.

I don't think Bell would get totally shut down playing for a worse team, but I could definitely see a situation where a lot of those 8- and 9-yard runs that he seemingly materializes out of nothing now turn into 1-yard losses even though he's driving forward (preventing a 3-yard loss). Then you've got a 3.8 YPC average and a quarterback who sucks and doesn't know how to check down, and suddenly people are wondering if Bell is done. Then he gets picked up by a decent team on a low-risk deal and they find out no, he's not done, in fact he's still not bad at all. Of course, unless some injury derails the whole thing.

Basically that's where I see his career going if he doesn't sign a long-term deal here in the offseason. Which is encouraging to hear there is progress on, by the way - I had that situation pegged as just about hopeless based on the last go-around.

86WARD
01-24-2018, 05:05 PM
956210149651345408

956210398436392964

Lol.

So basically Bouchette again...stretching to get Readers...

Craic
01-24-2018, 09:47 PM
That's what makes him a much better running back than Parker.

I don't think Bell would get totally shut down playing for a worse team, but I could definitely see a situation where a lot of those 8- and 9-yard runs that he seemingly materializes out of nothing now turn into 1-yard losses even though he's driving forward (preventing a 3-yard loss). Then you've got a 3.8 YPC average and a quarterback who sucks and doesn't know how to check down, and suddenly people are wondering if Bell is done. Then he gets picked up by a decent team on a low-risk deal and they find out no, he's not done, in fact he's still not bad at all. Of course, unless some injury derails the whole thing.

Basically that's where I see his career going if he doesn't sign a long-term deal here in the offseason. Which is encouraging to hear there is progress on, by the way - I had that situation pegged as just about hopeless based on the last go-around.

Agreed on Bell, both being better and on progress. To be honest, I'd love to have a Willie P. on the roster right now as a counter to Bell. Could you imagine that? Bell comes out and makes defenses wait and wait and wait before he hits the hole. Then, a fastback comes in and zoom, he's gone before the LB even remembers he has to hit the hole to stuff the faster back. All-in-all, I think the problem with Parker was that he should never have been the primary back. He should have been the change-up back that comes and breaks games open after defenses were worn down by the bigger backs.

And, on that note, that's my single complaint about Bell's toolset. He is quick, but he does not have break-away speed. He almost always gets chased down from behind.

AtlantaDan
01-25-2018, 10:02 AM
Gerry Dulac of the P-G definitely not on Team Le'Veon in yesterday's P-G chat

Would you pick the over or under for a 10 win season with Bell playing.
Gerry Dulac: With or without....

to me, the Steelers could find several RBs in the draft who they could plug in that offense and behind that line and still win 13 games....

I wouldn't sign him, and I think they are starting to lean in that direction. I wouldn't be shocked if they didn't franchise him, given his suspensions, camp holdout (which will happen again) and social-media nonsense. In fact, I'd be in favor of it...

Are the headaches the LeVeon Bell brings (holdout, contract demands, skipping meeting before playoff game) worth franchising him again or let him walk/draft a RB?
Gerry Dulac: Nope...

I've read and heard more than a few reasons why the Steelers should NOT offer Le'Veon a high salary long-term deal, but could you offer reasons why the Steelers SHOULD?
Gerry Dulac: Nope.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/24/Gerry-Dulac-Steelers-chat-1-24-18/stories/201801240098

DesertSteel
01-25-2018, 10:54 AM
Gerry Dulac of the P-G definitely not on Team Le'Veon in yesterday's P-G chat

Would you pick the over or under for a 10 win season with Bell playing.
Gerry Dulac: With or without....

to me, the Steelers could find several RBs in the draft who they could plug in that offense and behind that line and still win 13 games....

I wouldn't sign him, and I think they are starting to lean in that direction. I wouldn't be shocked if they didn't franchise him, given his suspensions, camp holdout (which will happen again) and social-media nonsense. In fact, I'd be in favor of it...

Are the headaches the LeVeon Bell brings (holdout, contract demands, skipping meeting before playoff game) worth franchising him again or let him walk/draft a RB?
Gerry Dulac: Nope...

I've read and heard more than a few reasons why the Steelers should NOT offer Le'Veon a high salary long-term deal, but could you offer reasons why the Steelers SHOULD?
Gerry Dulac: Nope.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/24/Gerry-Dulac-Steelers-chat-1-24-18/stories/201801240098

I'm in Dulac's camp. Take a new workhorse in R2 and pair him with Conner. Use that $ elsewhere. Bell is a nice weapon in that he's versatile, but he's replaceable on the cheap.

Mojouw
01-25-2018, 11:04 AM
Gerry Dulac of the P-G definitely not on Team Le'Veon in yesterday's P-G chat

Would you pick the over or under for a 10 win season with Bell playing.
Gerry Dulac: With or without....

to me, the Steelers could find several RBs in the draft who they could plug in that offense and behind that line and still win 13 games....

I wouldn't sign him, and I think they are starting to lean in that direction. I wouldn't be shocked if they didn't franchise him, given his suspensions, camp holdout (which will happen again) and social-media nonsense. In fact, I'd be in favor of it...

Are the headaches the LeVeon Bell brings (holdout, contract demands, skipping meeting before playoff game) worth franchising him again or let him walk/draft a RB?
Gerry Dulac: Nope...

I've read and heard more than a few reasons why the Steelers should NOT offer Le'Veon a high salary long-term deal, but could you offer reasons why the Steelers SHOULD?
Gerry Dulac: Nope.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/24/Gerry-Dulac-Steelers-chat-1-24-18/stories/201801240098


Rashard Mendenhall
Jonathan Dwyer
Redman

Those are some points against what Dulac is arguing for. Again, I have long believed RB is the most replaceable position on a roster. But I am starting to believe that maybe that is the case if all you are looking for is "average" acceptable production. If you want "high-end" you gots to pay. However, whether or not Bell is or will continue to represent that "high-end" is an open question.

I will say this to Dulac and others making a similar argument. "Draft Pick" is a tricky guy. I hear a ton about him every off-season. I hear about how amazing and super NFL ready "Draft Pick" is and how he can help my team get over the hump. Sometimes that is all true and "Draft Pick" shows up and does Juju things or Alvin Kamara things. Other times, "Draft Pick" shows up and does Jarvis Jones things or Marlon Mack things (yeah - remember that draft darling at RB that couldn't leapfrog Old Man River - I mean Frank Gore).

"Draft Pick" is not a sure thing. He can make you look like a genius and he can get you fired.

steelreserve
01-25-2018, 11:33 AM
Rashard Mendenhall
Jonathan Dwyer
Redman

Those are some points against what Dulac is arguing for. Again, I have long believed RB is the most replaceable position on a roster. But I am starting to believe that maybe that is the case if all you are looking for is "average" acceptable production. If you want "high-end" you gots to pay. However, whether or not Bell is or will continue to represent that "high-end" is an open question.


I think our odds of replacing Bell completely are extremely low. The question is whether what we get instead would be "good enough."

Dwyer and Redman - or Touissant - to me represent what you would get if you just threw in a replacement-level street free agent or late-round draft pick behind a mediocre line (Mendenhall being slightly better, but not worth a #1 pick obviously). This is probably also about what you would get if you, say, handed the starting job to Conner or Low Draft Pick and left it at that. With our current line coached by Munchak, I feel like we would do a bit better - you could probably expect something like 1,100 yards out of Conner or Draft Pick, but probably not much in the way of receiving yards, fewer impact plays, and who knows if they could block.

Would that be good enough? I'd say yes, but barely, and only if the other parts of the offense were humming along perfectly. For example, if we had a full year's top production out of a healthy McDonald at the TE position. I wouldn't feel good about going into the season that way voluntarily - kind of like going in with James as our primary TE, it would be a thin position.

Either way, I think we ought to be looking to add a RB who *might* be the future guy even if Bell sticks around. Because even if he signs a long-term deal, the clock is ticking on him, and it's about 50-50 odds we'll need another guy anyway in a couple years.

tl;dr - try to keep Bell for reasonable money, but in either case add someone who is not a trash-tier street free agent or just a throwaway draft pick.

DesertSteel
01-25-2018, 12:33 PM
Rashard Mendenhall
Jonathan Dwyer
Redman

Those are some points against what Dulac is arguing for. Again, I have long believed RB is the most replaceable position on a roster. But I am starting to believe that maybe that is the case if all you are looking for is "average" acceptable production. If you want "high-end" you gots to pay. However, whether or not Bell is or will continue to represent that "high-end" is an open question.

I will say this to Dulac and others making a similar argument. "Draft Pick" is a tricky guy. I hear a ton about him every off-season. I hear about how amazing and super NFL ready "Draft Pick" is and how he can help my team get over the hump. Sometimes that is all true and "Draft Pick" shows up and does Juju things or Alvin Kamara things. Other times, "Draft Pick" shows up and does Jarvis Jones things or Marlon Mack things (yeah - remember that draft darling at RB that couldn't leapfrog Old Man River - I mean Frank Gore).

"Draft Pick" is not a sure thing. He can make you look like a genius and he can get you fired.
While at the same time, Bell can (as already proven):

-- Fall off the wagon and get suspended for weed
-- Get injured and miss significant time

Those are risks just as real as "Draft Pick."

Plus there's the additional risk of wear and tear and decline that is not associated with "Draft Pick."

Bell's risks come at $12-15M per season and "Draft Pick's" at about $1-2M per. The odds for future success are greater with Bell, but at what price?

Mojouw
01-25-2018, 02:25 PM
While at the same time, Bell can (as already proven):

-- Fall off the wagon and get suspended for weed
-- Get injured and miss significant time

Those are risks just as real as "Draft Pick."

Plus there's the additional risk of wear and tear and decline that is not associated with "Draft Pick."

Bell's risks come at $12-15M per season and "Draft Pick's" at about $1-2M per. The odds for future success are greater with Bell, but at what price?

Good points. I might quibble that the injury risk is roughly the same between Bell and a draft pick (see Cook, Delvin). I also might point out that Bell only ever got caught smoking the devil's lettuce once. The other time was because the NFL kinda screwed him on the testing notification and he "missed" a test. Since the NFL agreed to not advance Bell in the program and reduced his suspension - I'm gonna give him a pass on that one. Long story short - how much greater is Bell's wacky tabacky risk?

Nothing to say on the money thing. Other than I think your rookie salary projection is a bit low. Unless you think that Bell can be replaced by a 3rd or 4th round RB.

tube517
01-25-2018, 02:35 PM
Like others, I'm leery of Bell + possible pot use again + possible injury and a giant contract.

OTOH,

Bell the RB + Bell the Receiver + Bell the Blocker

Munch is the best and the OL is one of the best, but Bell gets some credit as well being the #1 blocking back in the league and protecting Ben.

I"ve seen many instances where Bell catches that ILB up the middle and Ben is able to throw a rocket downfield or Bell chips a DE/OLB and catches a short pass after chipping to get a 1st down.

Is all that enough to justify the fat contract? :noidea:

AtlantaDan
01-25-2018, 03:20 PM
Long story short - how much greater is Bell's wacky tabacky risk?

Once he gets out of the random testing program less likely to be caught, but if he signs a long term contract IMO extremely high unless you put a clause in the contract that he forfeits his signing bonus and any other guaranteed payments after the contract year of the next suspension if he gets caught again.

If the guaranteed payments are forfeited or repaid that might wipe those payments off the books for salary cap purposes, as happened with Michael Vick paying $$ back to the Falcons

The NFL recently granted the Atlanta Falcons (http://www.espn.com/nfl/team/_/name/atl/atlanta-falcons) $3 million worth of salary-cap credits due to the money Michael Vick (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/2549/michael-vick) owed the franchise after the quarterback declared bankruptcy following a conviction on dogfighting charges while a member of the Falcons, according to league sources.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/7875426/atlanta-falcons-got-3m-cap-credit-michael-vick-debt-sources-say

DesertSteel
01-25-2018, 05:52 PM
Nothing to say on the money thing. Other than I think your rookie salary projection is a bit low. Unless you think that Bell can be replaced by a 3rd or 4th round RB.
I was thinking a 2nd rounder. The total contract of a 2nd tops out just a little over $5M for the whole deal. Steelers would be picking near the end of the 2nd which should place it under $5M.