Priority should be replacing BUTLER not HALEY

[Craic]

As the OC hate is beginning to come in strong, I have to say, hold on a second.

People are bitching about the 4th and 1 sweeps. I agree. Stupid plays. Push the ball upfield. However, this team dropped 41 points on the top rated defense in the NFL, and a defense that statistically, ranks up there with the best in the history of the NFL. Think about that for a second.

On the other hand, Blake BORTLES led his offense to dropping 38 points on this defense. He marched them down the field time and time again 14/26 for 214 yards and a TD. BORTLES! But that's not the worst of it. The real problem? Failure to adjust. Failure to pick up the RB swinging out of the backfield. Failure to move to man on third down when zone clearly wasn't working. Failure to leave a spy in the middle to stop Bortles from using his one good weapon—his feet.

In this offseason, the priority should be REPLACING BUTLER.

[Iron Steeler]

As the OC hate is beginning to come in strong, I have to say, hold on a second.

People are bitching about the 4th and 1 sweeps. I agree. Stupid plays. Push the ball upfield. However, this team dropped 41 points on the top rated defense in the NFL, and a defense that statistically, ranks up there with the best in the history of the NFL. Think about that for a second.

On the other hand, Blake BORTLES led his offense to dropping 38 points on this defense. He marched them down the field time and time again 14/26 for 214 yards and a TD. BORTLES! But that's not the worst of it. The real problem? Failure to adjust. Failure to pick up the RB swinging out of the backfield. Failure to move to man on third down when zone clearly wasn't working. Failure to leave a spy in the middle to stop Bortles from using his one good weapon—his feet.

In this offseason, the priority should be REPLACING BUTLER.

Yes everything you listed is right

[st33lersguy]

Both need to go. They'll never win another super bowl unless both get fired

[86WARD]

All THREE need to go. Did anyone not see how the onside kick was executed??

[fansince'76]

As the OC hate is beginning to come in strong, I have to say, hold on a second.

People are bitching about the 4th and 1 sweeps. I agree. Stupid plays. Push the ball upfield. However, this team dropped 41 points on the top rated defense in the NFL, and a defense that statistically, ranks up there with the best in the history of the NFL. Think about that for a second.

That was more a product of the talent on this offense than anything Haley did. Frankly, I'm tired of seeing Haley getting bailed out by the ridiculous amount of talent that this offense has.

But yeah, we need to get rid of the LeBeau disciple as well.

[Craic]

Both need to go. They'll never win another super bowl unless both get fired

Sorry, but 42 points should be enough to win an NFL game. I see no justification for Haley being fired. Yes, I hated those sweeps as well, but the offense put up stupidly good numbers today.

EDIT: No justification, but it won't bother me if he is gone as long as OC isn't the focus.

[Steeldude]

I would say Butler before Haley also. The defense is completely lost out there. This is also on Tomlin. I don't think Tomlin's players will ever be disciplined to play consistent football. The one thing you can count on with Tomlin's players is they will have their choreographed dances down perfectly.

[Craic]

That was more a product of the talent on this offense than anything Haley did. Frankly, I'm tired of seeing Haley getting bailed out by the ridiculous amount of talent that this offense has.

But yeah, we need to get rid of the LeBeau disciple as well.

That may be. And if Haley is gone, I won't cry in my milk any time soon. However, I'll be very upset if this team makes the OC the focus in the offseason. We need to focus on replacing the DC.
_______________

For anyone who's about to defend Butler through the "Our best LB was out" argument (which is true, Shazier was injured), I don't buy it. While not at the same talent level, Fort and Mat... played well today. The problem wasn't a missing LB. It was a missing gameplan.

Seriously, how does the first guy through the hole not blow up the FB? Moreover, how do you then let him walk into the endzone for an easy catch?

- - - Updated - - -


I would say Butler before Haley also. The defense is completely lost out there. This is also on Tomlin. I don't think Tomlin's players will ever be disciplined to play consistent football. The one thing you can count on with Tomlin's players is they will have their choreographed dances down perfectly.

Here's what really kills me. The CBs and safeties played a really good game. Bortles got lucky on one deep throw. The LBs and Line tightened down really well after the first quarter. The problem... the ENTIRE problem after that, IMO, was the scheming. We lost by scheme today. Not by players.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Yes, no matter how much I hate Haley, our offense is still great despite him. The defense however isn't, sack record be damned. I've always been a big fan of defense over offense and I want to see that nasty Steelers defense that I've always loved in the past. Butler's just not capable of getting us there. He needs to go and all of the defensive assistants need to go also. None of them are worth keeping.

[Fire Goodell]

Haley wasn't to blame, the offense scored 42 points. Defense really shit the bed on this one

[JayC]

This game is different if we have Shazier. The replacements can't hold his jock. Season was over after he went down.

[Shoes]

I think the Steelers made a mistake by promising Butler the DC position before Lebeau left. They should have had full interviews from as many coaches as possible. At this point tho I'd also give Grandma Fichtner a look and other outside OC if Ben would dilly dilly up and return next season.

[lipps83]

Butler before Haley but preferably at the same time. Realistically neither will probably be gone. Haley at least makes some good adjustments to get things turned around, Butler does at times as well but still, still sticks with shit that hasn't been effective in a long, long time. He had a week to prepare for Blake Bortles, and Bortles and his inaccuracies made Butler look like the fool he really is. This is a talented group of players that play pretty good despite a handicap by goofball.

Butler never should have just been handed the job. I never wanted him as DC, it was time for a change about 5 years before Lebeau actually was done. Not a continuation of a tired system.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Agree not a Haley fan but the real problem is Butler and he needs to go.

[Craic]

This game is different if we have Shazier. The replacements can't hold his jock. Season was over after he went down.

Nope, game is the exact same if we have Shazier, except that maybe the Jags don't have a 100 yard rusher. The problem with this game was the scheming, not ​the players.

[st33lersguy]

The offense is successful because of the high-end talented players, not Haley and his inability to call plays

[Steeldude]

That may be. And if Haley is gone, I won't cry in my milk any time soon. However, I'll be very upset if this team makes the OC the focus in the offseason. We need to focus on replacing the DC.
_______________

For anyone who's about to defend Butler through the "Our best LB was out" argument (which is true, Shazier was injured), I don't buy it. While not at the same talent level, Fort and Mat... played well today. The problem wasn't a missing LB. It was a missing gameplan.

Seriously, how does the first guy through the hole not blow up the FB? Moreover, how do you then let him walk into the endzone for an easy catch?

- - - Updated - - -



Here's what really kills me. The CBs and safeties played a really good game. Bortles got lucky on one deep throw. The LBs and Line tightened down really well after the first quarter. The problem... the ENTIRE problem after that, IMO, was the scheming. We lost by scheme today. Not by players.

I don't think the players have been taught the scheme. It looks like schoolyard defense.

[fansince'76]

The offense is successful because of the high-end talented players, not Haley and his inability to call plays

Bingo...

[Born2Steel]

Steelers win 13 games. Win the North, Sweep the North. Score 42 points against the Jags defense. Not time to fire anyone. Just relax.

[Steelerchad]

when you consider the talent we have on offense vs. the defense, somebody should get fired on the defensive side of the ball. Either the scouts or coordinator or both gotta go.
We've spent our #1 pick 6 of the last 7 years on Defense. One- Jarvis Jones is no longer on the team. Couple of 2nd rounders on that starting d as well in Tuitt, Davis.
The Free Agent starters are OK mainly because of Hayden. But Mitchell sucks in my opinion.
Meanwhile, Bell and JuJu are 2nd rounders, Bryant a 4th, Brown a 6th. 1st rounders on the O line, but nothing recently and of course Ben.
We should be in a position to reload our O line and QB with 1st rounders, but due to the misses on defensive drafts, we may not have that luxury.

[SteelerCountry58]

The D needs better players. We need a stud DE, better push from DT and probably LB help along with a hard nosed Safety. The O can score,barring Ben and Bell status.

[dislocatedday]

Rather than start a new thread, I'll post these questions here regarding the defense.

Is the biggest problem the defensive coaches and the game planning? Is it that Shazier is injured and out? Is it that there just are not enough quality players on that unit?

I knew Shazier was/is great and an incredible talent, but now that he has been out a few games I see just how big of a difference maker he is on that side of the ball. I think beyond missing Shazier though, the talent level overall is fairly good minus the two starting safeties. I think their coverage skills are suspect, they get out of position too often, and don't wrap up tackles nearly enough as they are looking for big hits. Overall though, there is no way that defensive unit should have allowed that much offense and scoring from the Jags today....so naturally I look at the coaches and the ability to gameplan and make adjustments, and while I am obviously not there to see what their meeting/game plan sessions entail, I just don't see them disciplined and making adjustments on a consistent basis. The original poster covered it today with the failure to adjust to the swing pass to the RB and putting a spy on Bortles.

Also, is it just me or has Javon Hargrave been largely invisible down the stretch this season and today? Early on this year he was dominant and easily noticed, but over the last couple months it seems like I never notice him, and don't even see him on the field that much.

I think the biggest problem with the defense is the coaching and the two starting safeties. Assuming Ben and Bell are back next year, the draft should be defense heavy again.

[SteelerFanInStl]

The D needs better players. We need a stud DE, better push from DT and probably LB help along with a hard nosed Safety. The O can score,barring Ben and Bell status.

We have 2 stud DEs in Cam and Tuitt and a very good backup in Alualu. I think we're lacking at DT with Hargrave. I just don't feel that he's a NT. Definitely need help at ILB and FS.

[Born2Steel]

The huge problem on defense is ILB, and Safety play. Has been and still is. These areas will get addressed and we will move on.

[Craic]

The offense is successful because of the high-end talented players, not Haley and his inability to call plays

Regardless, Haley is able to scheme good enough to allow the team to score 45 points in this game, and 30+ points five times this year. They scored 25+ points nine times this year. Haley is not the problem. Again, wouldn't be sad to see him leave, but after what we saw today, we need to put ALL our effort on hiring a DC this offseason. Not an OC.

[JayC]

get rid of them both. Ben just said Haley never calls QB sneaks. Get the fuck out of here Haley

[Craic]

get rid of them both. Ben just said Haley never calls QB sneaks. Get the fuck out of here Haley
I seem to remember Haley coming into Pittsburgh with 1 mandate: protect Ben. Yeah, you think he's going to call QB sneaks with a 35 year old QB after the last OC was run out of town for not protecting him?

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Regardless, Haley is able to scheme good enough to allow the team to score 45 points in this game, and 30+ points five times this year. They scored 25+ points nine times this year. Haley is not the problem. Again, wouldn't be sad to see him leave, but after what we saw today, we need to put ALL our effort on hiring a DC this offseason. Not an OC. Yep and I also could careless if Haley stays or goes. Butler is the problem and needs to go. If that happens I'm willing to bet no other team picks him up as a DC.

[Craic]

Yep and I also could careless if Haley stays or goes. Butler is the problem and needs to go. If that happens I'm willing to bet no other team picks him up as a DC.

I bet he'd end up Tennessee.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

I bet he'd end up Tennessee. I even doubt that and wouldn't be surprised if they had enough of DL.

[vader29]

952664029306109952

[Born2Steel]

The frustrating things about Haley play calls today...empty backfield so the top defense doesn't even have to respect the run, zero power game, pitched the ball on 4th and 1, and throw the ball into the strength of the defense on the other 4th and 1. If we do not re-sign Bell, this offense will not succeed next season.

[Craic]

The frustrating things about Haley play calls today...empty backfield so the top defense doesn't even have to respect the run, zero power game, pitched the ball on 4th and 1, and throw the ball into the strength of the defense on the other 4th and 1. If we do not re-sign Bell, this offense will not succeed next season.

Again, this thread isn't saying there were some frustrating things about Haley. But, dropping 42 points on the BEST DEFENSE IN THE NFL and perhaps, one of the best defenses in teh HISTORY of the NFL (they really are, statistically) takes all blame off Haley IMO.

[Lady Steel]

The offense is successful because of the high-end talented players, not Haley and his inability to call plays

Eggactly. :)

[Count Steeler]

DC,oc, and give Tomlin a course on time management.

[Mojouw]

Again, this thread isn't saying there were some frustrating things about Haley. But, dropping 42 points on the BEST DEFENSE IN THE NFL and perhaps, one of the best defenses in teh HISTORY of the NFL (they really are, statistically) takes all blame off Haley IMO.
For real. Does anyone watch other teams consistently? If you want to fire a coordinator from these playoffs it starts with the entire Tennessee staff. They had one drive and then ZERO answers on either side of the ball. If you want to see what I consider a coaching staff blowing a game, watch that one. Another great example is the Falcons. They had a horrible showing and could not figure out Foles or the Eagles defense.

The Steelers got beat at the line of scrimmage more than anything else. If someone can point out other things to me, I’m wiling to listen. But my initial gut reaction is that the Steelers front 3 got handled and then there was ZERO playmaking at the LB level. I suspect Watt ran out of gas and the team has to seriously be seeing Dupree as another miss. VW is okay as long as he can Robin to Shazier’s Batman. But he isn’t able to wear the cowl on his own. Sean Davis and Mitchell are okay at best. No playmakers down the spine of the defense.

[steelreserve]

Well the defense still isn't good enough, that's for sure. I don't know how you give up 45 points to what is by all accounts a low-octane offense in an important game like that. Completely embarrassing.

We need more speed at linebacker, that's painfully obvious. Keep Williams and Watt, and you can get rid of all the rest for all I care. Maybe Fort will get it one day and you can keep as a project guy, but we have an obvious exploit and will never win anything as long as the personnel situation is like this. That killed us today as much as anything.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Butler should be gone period for not teaching his players how to tackle.

[MULLDOG24]

IMO there was the scheme to blame I mean can't stop the run can't get off the field on 3rd down no adjustments to what was working for the Jags. Getting off the field on 3rd and long has been a problem all year it seems so if I had to put the blame on something it would have to be Butler his scheme and the Defense just the way I'm looking at things.

[GBMelBlount]

Sorry, but 42 points should be enough to win an NFL game. I see no justification for Haley being fired. Yes, I hated those sweeps as well, but the offense put up stupidly good numbers today.

EDIT: No justification, but it won't bother me if he is gone as long as OC isn't the focus.

Agreed.

To me, the loss rests at the feet of this atrocious defense.

[lipps83]

The only huge issue with a call I had with Haley today was the sweep on fourth down. He tried it two or three plays before, and I posted in the game day thread not to do that because you aren't going to beat the Jags going wide. Nonetheless, goofball did it on the 4th down play because he was watching a different game at the time than I was.

There were some other questionable calls, but nothing that stood out as much as that one.

Butler has been a buffoon for 4 years now. They both need to go, but Butler needs to be gone first.

- - - Updated - - -

Another thing I can't stand with Butler, is if the opponent has a 3rd and long that is an almost guaranteed 1st down for the opponent because, well, Butler.

[Craic]

The only huge issue with a call I had with Haley today was the sweep on fourth down. He tried it two or three plays before, and I posted in the game day thread not to do that because you aren't going to beat the Jags going wide. Nonetheless, goofball did it on the 4th down play because he was watching a different game at the time than I was.

There were some other questionable calls, but nothing that stood out as much as that one.

Butler has been a buffoon for 4 years now. They both need to go, but Butler needs to be gone first.

- - - Updated - - -

Another thing I can't stand with Butler, is if the opponent has a 3rd and long that is an almost guaranteed 1st down for the opponent because . . .
. . . Butler likes to slip into a soft zone and give up both seams and players coming out the backfield.

[SteelerFanInStl]

. . . Butler likes to slip into a soft zone and give up both seams and players coming out the backfield.

Yep, that's killed us for years. It's exactly how the Jags were converting on 3rd down today.

[lipps83]

. . . Butler likes to slip into a soft zone and give up both seams and players coming out the backfield.

I couldn't tell you how many times I posted about that in the GD thread. Bortles doesn't like to throw long, because he can't and he knows it. He is highly inaccurate beyond like, 8 yards. I know it. You know it. Dan Fouts knows it (and mentioned it during game). Michelle Pfeifer knows it. Kim Jong Un knows it. Abe Lincoln knows it and he has been dead for a long, long time.

Everyone knows it except for Keith Butler.

Screens out of the backfield were there for the Jags all game.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Butler should have never got the job in the first place, he is a bum and only got the position cause of seniority. Like I mentioned earlier if he is fired I bet there is not even one team in the league that will hire him for DC! That even includes the Browns!

[Craic]

Butler should have never got the job in the first place, he is a bum and only got the position cause of seniority. Like I mentioned earlier if he is fired I bet there is not even one team in the league that will hire him for DC! That even includes the Browns!
:nono: Never put anything past the Browns.




:chuckle:

[Iron Steeler]

Sean Davis and Mitchell are okay at best. No playmakers down the spine of the defense.

Zero.

YES we had the most sacks as a team this year.
NO we don't have that ONE playmaker on defense that teams need to be aware of at all times. (Shazier,Polumalu,Harrison,Porter)

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

:nono: Never put anything past the Browns.




:chuckle: Lol no and sure they remember how Kizer tore up his D.

[Craic]

So,

Now that we've all slept on it, has anyone's opinion changed? Personally, I still think the DC should be shown the door. As for Haley, I'm not sold on him, but I don't hate him either. I'd be okay with letting him go if Fichtner is given the reigns. What I wouldn't be okay with is letting Haley go and then the front office and Tomlin have to put in the time looking for a new OC and DC. If they were to look for two coordinators, I'd prefer it be a DC and special teams.

[st33lersguy]

Yep Butler and Haley both still need to go.

[fansince'76]

Yep Butler and Haley both still need to go.

This is also where I'm at...

[Lady Steel]

Haley does need to go, in my opinion. Ben hates him, and I believe Haley's tirades are a distraction for Ben during the games.

Butler needs to be shown the door, as well.

[NCSteeler]

I would say Butler before Haley also. The defense is completely lost out there. This is also on Tomlin. I don't think Tomlin's players will ever be disciplined to play consistent football. The one thing you can count on with Tomlin's players is they will have their choreographed dances down perfectly.Yep

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

[vasteeler]

I'm still on the side of keeping Haley. Maybe I'm not seeing it but I'm not sure why everyone thinks Ben and Todd hate each other. The only people I have heard that from is posters here. As far as Butler... See ya, immediately

[GBMelBlount]

What is Kevin Greene up to these days?

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/aub/sports/m-footbl/auto_a_storywide/12022182.jpeg

[NCSteeler]

Did anyone watch the Vikings game? Haley is fully to blame you spend two maybe three weeks planning and go three and out on the first few possession. You are shit. This game and the defense is completely different if we score 14 early points. Changes every thing. Point scoring is as much about when as it is how many . Haley sucks from the bottom to the top. Butler may suck too but Haley is a problem that needs to be taken care of

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

[tube517]

What is Kevin Greene up to these days?

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/aub/sports/m-footbl/auto_a_storywide/12022182.jpeg

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.3262508.1497973574!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/cdr17061305-jets-minicamp.jpg

LB coach for the J-E-T-S

[Mojouw]

I would be okay with letting either go, as long as the Steelers actually thought and carefully considered their replacements.

For instance, the Seahawks fired Bevell and brought in Brian Schottenheimer to replace him. Yuck! That is like trading out your aging wood paneled station wagon for a station wagon without the wood panels.

I am not a fan of firings for the sake of firings. You damn well better be able to identify someone who can come in and do the job and do the job well -- but with a fresh and innovative perspective.

On offense, there is really no need to change much. Good to really good OL. Great WR group. One of the 3 best RBs in football. One of the 5 best QBs in the game. And they just hung a legit 35 (we can take the last "garbage time" TD off the board if it makes people happier) on the best defense in football in 2017. I know that many believe individual play calls and tendencies could be improved, but a major system revamp and install is likely totally unnecessary and counter-productive. What is a new coordinator going to do? Involve Bell less? Not utilize the otherworldly athletes at WR to go deep?

On defense, I don't know. The "on paper" approach of Butler and company seems sound. But then there is a results issue. So good process and less than ideal results. Where does that leave us? Well, for me, it leaves me awaiting more information and breakdowns from better informed sources. What do I mean? I mean what I really do not understand is whether the scheme(s) and game plans were just totally f'ed up (coaching), if the execution of those schemes was flawed (players), if the coaching staff is asking the players to do things they are not capable of doing (coaches again), if the coaches and players are not preparing in the best way and are reading the wrong keys and tendencies in their opponents AND offering "tipping their own pitches" (coaches and players), or if it is some toxic combination of all of those factors.

Here is an example (assuming this breakdown is correct as written): http://www.steelersdepot.com/2018/01/film-room-play-ended-steelers-season/
So we are left to wonder where to place the blame on this play:

1. Haden seems super late and slow in turning and running. Is that because the play asks him to do something he can no longer do at NFL speed? Or was he a beat slow in executing his assignment as he was cheating towards the line of scrimmage all day?

2. Burns seems to be rounding off his cuts and appears to somewhat stumble at the end. He stays "outside" and never responds to Cole's adjustment to the middle of the field. As a result he is not able to make any kind of play on the ball. Is this bad technique and execution on Burns' part? Was he expecting far more timely and close support from Haden - so he stayed "outside"?

3. Is it (as Alex K seems to think) just a flawed scheme and approach to defending that type of play? If so, what is the "proper" manner of defending it? Is that something the Steelers have the players to execute effectively or is Butler forced to use a screwdriver when he needs a crowbar but doesn't have one?

Honestly, these are questions that I know I can not answer and I suspect many outside of the Steelers facility can not answer. But, for me, that level of granular analysis would be how I would decide who stays and goes if I was running the franchise. I just hope that whatever else happens in the off-season that brutally honest self-assessment is part of it.

[Born2Steel]

Again, this thread isn't saying there were some frustrating things about Haley. But, dropping 42 points on the BEST DEFENSE IN THE NFL and perhaps, one of the best defenses in teh HISTORY of the NFL (they really are, statistically) takes all blame off Haley IMO.

I agree the offense was not the problem. The play calling was suspect at times though. Who calls a pitch play on 4th and 1? We have one of the better power olines and RB in the NFL. You line up and run them over, even when they expect it, just do it. I am not calling for anyone to get fired, just frustrated that we couldn't get the offense going early enough to dictate the game. Instead the defense played poorly and let the Jags dictate what we did.

[Lady Steel]

I'm still on the side of keeping Haley. Maybe I'm not seeing it but I'm not sure why everyone thinks Ben and Todd hate each other. The only people I have heard that from is posters here. As far as Butler... See ya, immediately

Ben doesn't want Haley beside him during the game. He now has Fichtner by this side.

[Rotorhead]

Did anyone watch the Vikings game? Haley is fully to blame you spend two maybe three weeks planning and go three and out on the first few possession. You are shit. This game and the defense is completely different if we score 14 early points. Changes every thing. Point scoring is as much about when as it is how many . Haley sucks from the bottom to the top. Butler may suck too but Haley is a problem that needs to be taken care of

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

The entire team came out flat, like they do after every bye with Tomlin. I imagine we are the worst team in the NFL in the first half after a bye. I would be happy to see Tomlin gone, I have honestly never liked him. I would love to steal Wade Phillips for DC, but that is not going to happen.

[Rotorhead]

Good point Mojouw, however the many times this season our def has run out there (and last years AFCCG) looking like the keystone cops, not knowing their assignments leads me to believe it is the coaching staff. Same thing happened on the MB TD this game. Nobody seemed to know who was supposed to do what. Add to that the game management (or lack of) by Tomlin . . . I honestly think he needs to go. This team is far too talented and, as someone else put it, should be a much better team. The coaching from the top down is a problem. Get rid of Butler, Haley and Tomlin (if it were up to me), but like you said, find replacements that are worthy. The problem is who? Coughlin? At least his team would be discliplined. Keep Fitchner and who for Butler? We don't want to change the entire scheme, just fix the problems and find people who can game plan and adjust during a game.

[SteelerFanInStl]

If I'm not mistaken, Haley's contract is up. That gives the Steelers an easy opening to just promote Fichtner to OC.

[plenewken]

Tomlin, Haley and Butler, the 3 of them, should go and I'll add Porter and Lake. The Steelers never seem to be prepared mentally nor tactically to the challenge. I don't think there's any discipline, any fire or any pride in this team, and this has been going on for almost a decade now.
Tomlin should consider himself lucky that Mario Lemieux doesn't own the Steelers. He'd been gone already.

[Mojouw]

Tomlin, Haley and Butler, the 3 of them, should go and I'll add Porter and Lake. The Steelers never seem to be prepared mentally nor tactically to the challenge. I don't think there's any discipline, any fire or any pride in this team, and this has been going on for almost a decade now.
Tomlin should consider himself lucky that Mario Lemieux doesn't own the Steelers. He'd been gone already.

Really? How many last minute comebacks were staged successfully this season? That only happens on a team with pride and mental discipline. Look at what they did in a losing effort yesterday? How many teams go in the tank down 3 scores at home in a playoff game? But they fought and rallied and almost pulled it off. That doesn't happen on a team with no pride and discipline.

Its like folks only remember the losses and don't remember any of the good when they evaluate the team.

Steelers got beat yesterday. It happens. There needs to be an evaluation, but not a knee jerk sweeping indictment of every last thing.

[Shoes]

Tomlin isn't going anywhere but he must be held accountable. Butler and Haley both are worthy of the chopping block.

[plenewken]

Really? How many last minute comebacks were staged successfully this season? That only happens on a team with pride and mental discipline. Look at what they did in a losing effort yesterday? How many teams go in the tank down 3 scores at home in a playoff game? But they fought and rallied and almost pulled it off. That doesn't happen on a team with no pride and discipline.

Its like folks only remember the losses and don't remember any of the good when they evaluate the team.

Steelers got beat yesterday. It happens. There needs to be an evaluation, but not a knee jerk sweeping indictment of every last thing.

I've heard that for 9 seasons in a row. It's about time to address the root cause of the problem and it starts at the top. Sick and tired of the complacency.

[NCSteeler]

I'm not sure AR2 will be as patient as his father and grand father. He's very much a different guy from them. Wouldn't surprise me if he put Tomlin on notice to fix it or face consequences . Might even demand some changes

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

[NCSteeler]

We are kind of in a prime situation to make the switch to a 4-3 defense. Do the players fit ? They certainly don't fit a 3-4 without a true NT it just doesn't work

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[DesertSteel]

Butler is a fine assistant. He probably teaches well. He is not equipped for in-game decisions and adjustments. Too many moving parts for him. We need someone with experience.

[AtlantaDan]

I'm not sure AR2 will be as patient as his father and grand father. He's very much a different guy from them. Wouldn't surprise me if he put Tomlin on notice to fix it or face consequences . Might even demand some changes

Dan Rooney was pretty cold blooded - fired his brother as head of scouting in the mid-80s and made Noll clean house or leave after the 1988 season

Tomlin's exit interview this season with the owner is going to be cold - in addition to the Jags loss the image of this team as a crew that acted out and did not back it up hurts the Steelers brand that has been developed since the 70s


We are kind of in a prime situation to make the switch to a 4-3 defense. Do the players fit ? They certainly don't fit a 3-4 without a true NT it just doesn't work

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952981962901344256

[DesertSteel]

All THREE need to go. Did anyone not see how the onside kick was executed??
Rooney too! They all need to go!!!!!!!!!!!

[FrancoLambert]

Can't see any chance of Haley and Ben going through another season together. Promote from within with Fichtner.

Hope AR2 puts some pressure on Tomlin to upgrade and move on from Butler.

[teegre]

Rex Ryan

He gets along with Tomlin, and he can beat the Taperiots.

[Craic]

Dan Rooney was pretty cold blooded - fired his brother as head of scouting in the mid-80s and made Noll clean house or leave after the 1988 season

Tomlin's exit interview this season with the owner is going to be cold - in addition to the Jags loss the image of this team as a crew that acted out and did not back it up hurts the Steelers brand that has been developed since the 70s



952981962901344256
That's true (the tweet). However, unless I'm mistaken (and it's very possible I am), when we move out of the 3-4 and use anything like four down lineman, we're basically dropping in another Linebacker as the fourth lineman and playing the nickel or dime behind them, no?

[vasteeler]

Rex Ryan

He gets along with Tomlin, and he can beat the Taperiots.

Not sure if you are serious but I actually like the idea

[teegre]

Not sure if you are serious but I actually like the idea

I’m actually dead serious. For once. :lol:

[Psycho Ward 86]

Rex Ryan

He gets along with Tomlin, and he can beat the Taperiots.

What the fuck. Why do i like this idea.

And for those who would be worried about him running his mouth, remember that he wasnt in the news doing that stuff when he was lighting it up in Baltimore.

[st33lersguy]

Rex Ryan

He gets along with Tomlin, and he can beat the Taperiots.

I'd welcome Footman as DC, as DC he actually has a great track record

[Mojouw]

Rex and Rob Ryan are charlatans and frauds. Hiring those guys would be a fatal mistake for any franchise.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Rex and Rob Ryan are charlatans and frauds. Hiring those guys would be a fatal mistake for any franchise.

Idk, everywhere he goes, the defensive players love him. On the surface, I like Rex the DC, definitely not the HC. He's one of those guys

[st33lersguy]

Rex and Rob Ryan are charlatans and frauds. Hiring those guys would be a fatal mistake for any franchise.

Rex knows defense. As long as he doesn't touch the offense the team would be fine with him

[Mojouw]

Rex knows defense. As long as he doesn't touch the offense the team would be fine with him

Does he? Look at the points allowed rank - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/RyanRe0.htm

In the bottom half of the league since 2011. I understand he wasn't DC during that stretch, but still.

Compare that to Tomlin w/ Lebeau and Butler: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/TomlMi0.htm

I realize this isn't the world's most accurate or precise comparison but it is a start and I'm not sure it really paints a super flattering picture...then again...status quo is not always a solid argument either...

[Steelerette]

Butler is a fine assistant. He probably teaches well.
I'm not so sure about that. He's a linebacker specialist, and linebacker has been a chronic problem despite a staggering number of high draft picks...

[Mojouw]

Idk, everywhere he goes, the defensive players love him. On the surface, I like Rex the DC, definitely not the HC. He's one of those guys

Rob was hated and Rex hired him -- http://billswire.usatoday.com/2017/01/06/anonymous-bills-player-says-rob-ryan-ruined-everything-on-defense/

Rex wasn't always able to communicate well with the players either -- http://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/index.ssf/2016/12/buffalo_bills_players_explain_why_rex_ryans_defens e_didnt_work.html

At various points several prominent Bills players questioned Ryan and his approach -- https://nesn.com/2015/10/current-former-bills-players-upset-at-rex-ryans-approach-on-defense/

What is the real story? Hell if I know! But after his Ravens stint and about halfway through his Jets tenure, I think the bloom came off the rose a bit.

[BlackAndGold]

From what I've been reading on social media, it seems Tomlin is basically the DC as much as Butler is.

I don't see Haley being back though. Fitch will be the OC, a new QB coach will be hired.

[GBMelBlount]

It is frustrating to me how this team looked and ranked well last year defensively and played well the first part of this year and then as soon as our offense kicked it into gear, they have not been very good.

What caused this decline? I was expecting these young players to be getting better.

Hopefully, one more heavily defensive draft and another year of playing together will help this defense re-gel / improve to where we need them to be to in order to win another lombardi.

[Craic]

It is frustrating to me how this team looked and ranked well last year defensively and played well the first part of this year and then as soon as our offense kicked it into gear, they have not been very good.

What caused this decline? I was expecting these young players to be getting better.

Hopefully, one more heavily defensive draft and another year of playing together will help this defense re-gel / improve to where we need them to be to in order to win another lombardi.

I agree. Some may point to Shazier's injury. While I can understand that to a certain degree, it doesn't explain all the issues. Then, when I think back over that game, I continually see the issue not being the CBs and Safeties. It's the short stuff underneath with no one around. So, unless everyone was missing their assignments again and again, it has to be a scheme issue.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Tomlin not ready to talk about potential coaching-staff changes

Mike Florio, ProFootball Talk on NBC Sports

Amid increasing chatter than Steelers offensive coordinator Todd Haley, whose contract is expiring, won’t return, coach Mike Tomlin did nothing to fuel — or extinguish — those flames during a season-ending press conference on Tuesday.

Tomlin told reporters regarding his staff, “I don’t know where these roads are going to lead,” and Tomlin made it clear that he’s not ready to address the situation “at this point.”

to read rest of article:

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/tomlin-not-ready-talk-potential-175851217.html

[Rotorhead]

My pick would be Wade Philips, everywhere he goes as a DC that def is in the top 5 and effective. Hell, look at Denver, went from one of the best Def's in a long time to average after he left. He can change his gameplan mid game and adjusts to the players strengths.

- - - Updated - - -

My pick would be Wade Philips, everywhere he goes as a DC that def is in the top 5 and effective. Hell, look at Denver, went from one of the best Def's in a long time to average after he left. He can change his gameplan mid game and adjusts to the players strengths.

[86WARD]

On offense, this team has the best talent in the league player vs player. No way can you make an argument for any other team over this one on paper. Defensively, not so much, but they aren’t terrible. They’d be Top-12 or 13 probably without looking...just based on talent.

I’m in the camp that if they fired all three of the coordinators and had a plan, I’m fine with that. I’ve never been a Haley-hater but after yesterday, he’s on my last nerve. If he left, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. I’d give Butler another year but after that, same result? Gone. Danny Smith would’ve been fired Monday. If you can’t execute an onside kick to at least have a shot at recovery, you need to go back to coaching high school.

The Steelers are doing a lot of good things but it’s the little things that they aren’t doing...4th & 1...you sneak it with Ben who has an 18/19 success rate...you just do it. You can’t play football in fear of him getting hurt on a QBsneak. You can’t. The team refuses to put the best players on the field in a position to win. How long has this team struggled with kick returners because Tomlin refuses to use defensive players to return kicks? Little things. Tackling has been an issue...another little thing?

Who do the little things fall on? I think they fall on the staff but ultimately Tomlin. I like Tomlin most of the time...sometimes I don’t get him. I understand the onside kick attempt...no problem with the call. At some point, he needs to be held accountable for the little things.

[NCSteeler]

I agree. Some may point to Shazier's injury. While I can understand that to a certain degree, it doesn't explain all the issues. Then, when I think back over that game, I continually see the issue not being the CBs and Safeties. It's the short stuff underneath with no one around. So, unless everyone was missing their assignments again and again, it has to be a scheme issue.This is a team whose best plan at ilb was Spence off the street. Seriously not one practice squad guy in this league could do better than a three time washout. Again piss poor planning

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[SteelerFanInStl]

My pick would be Wade Philips, everywhere he goes as a DC that def is in the top 5 and effective. Hell, look at Denver, went from one of the best Def's in a long time to average after he left. He can change his gameplan mid game and adjusts to the players strengths.

- - - Updated - - -

My pick would be Wade Philips, everywhere he goes as a DC that def is in the top 5 and effective. Hell, look at Denver, went from one of the best Def's in a long time to average after he left. He can change his gameplan mid game and adjusts to the players strengths.

Except for he's already got a job as the DC with the Rams. He's not going anywhere unless if someone wants to make him head coach and I don't think that's going to happen again.

[j-d-s]

Maybe we return LeBeau as DC :stirthepot:.

[Steelerette]

Chuck Pagano maybe. I don't know, I think we need to clean out the LeBeau/Butler coaching tree, but there's not a lot of attractive options out there right now.

[pepsyman1]

Butler should be gone period for not teaching his players how to tackle.

THIS... it's been a problem for the last five years or so. They miss so many tackles it's painful

[Craic]

Chuck Pagano maybe. I don't know, I think we need to clean out the LeBeau/Butler coaching tree, but there's not a lot of attractive options out there right now.
Absolutely. In hindsight, the system that tree is built on is based on exploiting top level talent in at least two positions plus having good to very good CBs. When your team has just above average talent, even across the defensive starting roster, it fails. I'd prefer a more plug-n-play system. Despite what we all feel about Belicheat, that is one area that he has it right.

[NCSteeler]

Absolutely. In hindsight, the system that tree is built on is based on exploiting top level talent in at least two positions plus having good to very good CBs. When your team has just above average talent, even across the defensive starting roster, it fails. I'd prefer a more plug-n-play system. Despite what we all feel about Belicheat, that is one area that he has it right.Patriots defenses are rarely top shelf. Bur they usually make plays when they have to. Oh yeah that damn situational football again

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[AtlantaDan]

This from the P-G this morning

Steelers coach Mike Tomlin has told his defensive coaches he is not going to make any changes and intends to bring that portion of his staff back next season, per a team source.

But as former offensive coordinator Bruce Arians discovered after the 2011 season, that could also change.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/17/mike-tomlin-steelers-coaching-changes-keith-butler-defensive-coordinator/stories/201801170159

Haley trying to text and call Tomlin for similar assurances but receiving message that number is not in service after Tomlin blocked him. :chuckle:

[tube517]

This from the P-G this morning

Steelers coach Mike Tomlin has told his defensive coaches he is not going to make any changes and intends to bring that portion of his staff back next season, per a team source.

But as former offensive coordinator Bruce Arians discovered after the 2011 season, that could also change.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/17/mike-tomlin-steelers-coaching-changes-keith-butler-defensive-coordinator/stories/201801170159

Haley trying to text and call Tomlin for similar assurances but receiving message that number is not in service after Tomlin blocked him. :chuckle:


https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/kancolle/images/c/c1/Torches-and-pitchforks.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170213122958 :chuckle:

[Craic]

This from the P-G this morning

Steelers coach Mike Tomlin has told his defensive coaches he is not going to make any changes and intends to bring that portion of his staff back next season, per a team source.

But as former offensive coordinator Bruce Arians discovered after the 2011 season, that could also change.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/17/mike-tomlin-steelers-coaching-changes-keith-butler-defensive-coordinator/stories/201801170159


:yuck:

Unbelievable. Hmm. Maybe there's hope in that he told his coaches that, but not the coordinator? Doubt it, but one can try.

[BlackAndGold]

THIS... it's been a problem for the last five years or so. They miss so many tackles it's painful

The whole league sucks at tackling.

[Mojouw]

The whole league sucks at tackling.
Yeah. This is not a “Steelers Problem”. There is a slew of stuff written about how he CBA, the practice priorities, and even what goes on at the NCAA level has created a sport wide lack of fundamentals.

Look at the “tackle” at the end of the Saints Vikings game for an example

It is what it is.

[Born2Steel]

Yeah. This is not a “Steelers Problem”. There is a slew of stuff written about how he CBA, the practice priorities, and even what goes on at the NCAA level has created a sport wide lack of fundamentals.

Look at the “tackle” at the end of the Saints Vikings game for an example

It is what it is.

I'm glad we didn't lose the way the Saints did. I doubt I would be able to talk about it yet.

[j-d-s]

Yeah, our loss was way worse. They blew the coverage on the last play, but we allowed 38 points to the Jags. At Home.

[Craic]

Yeah. This is not a “Steelers Problem”. There is a slew of stuff written about how he CBA, the practice priorities, and even what goes on at the NCAA level has created a sport wide lack of fundamentals.

Look at the “tackle” at the end of the Saints Vikings game for an example

It is what it is.

it's not the CBA IMO (but that doesn't help). This downturn started in the 80s when ESPN showed big hits. Slowly, players realized they could make a national name for themselves blowing people up. That coincided with ending Plan B free-agency in the early 90s and suddenly, players could earn MASSIVE paychecks in free agency by name recognition. Along with that came building the brand, which just furthered the ESPNball big-hit frenzy. Then, along comes this little issue called CTE. Now, players want to go for the big hit, but they can no longer head hunt or grip and rip as it usually ends in contact with the head. So, they have to try and get the big hit on the body. And thus, the bad tackling we have today. The CBA doesn't help because now, with all this other stuff thrown in the mix, coaches need to take the time and teach basic tackling, but they just don't have it. I don't blame the CBA for the lack of fundamentals, mind you, but it does limit helping players get back to them.

[Mojouw]

it's not the CBA IMO (but that doesn't help). This downturn started in the 80s when ESPN showed big hits. Slowly, players realized they could make a national name for themselves blowing people up. That coincided with ending Plan B free-agency in the early 90s and suddenly, players could earn MASSIVE paychecks in free agency by name recognition. Along with that came building the brand, which just furthered the ESPNball big-hit frenzy. Then, along comes this little issue called CTE. Now, players want to go for the big hit, but they can no longer head hunt or grip and rip as it usually ends in contact with the head. So, they have to try and get the big hit on the body. And thus, the bad tackling we have today. The CBA doesn't help because now, with all this other stuff thrown in the mix, coaches need to take the time and teach basic tackling, but they just don't have it. I don't blame the CBA for the lack of fundamentals, mind you, but it does limit helping players get back to them.

I'll buy that. Regardless of how it started and why it continues, this is not a problem limited or unique to the Steelers.

Like everything else, when you make something into a commodity, which football is, the product suffers. Even "big time" high schools talk about how it is all game plan installation and system concepts review in practices and not a ton of work on basic drills and fundamentals.

I'm sure it isn't like that everywhere, but it certainly is at enough places that guys are being fed in to the NFL that never really learned how to do basic football things. And almost certainly have not had the devoted practice time to install "muscle memory" on a variety of things. How many wide-outs enter the NFL each year with no idea how to run a route besides really fast in a straight line?

[AtlantaDan]

I don't blame the CBA for the lack of fundamentals, mind you, but it does limit helping players get back to them.

The athletes are much better and the schemes on both sides of the ball are exponentially more complex today but IMO the game is not played as well in significant aspects

This video shows greatness based on fundamentals


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxmcH_x60oU

[Shoes]

The athletes are much better and the schemes on both sides of the ball are exponentially more complex today but IMO the game is not played as well in significant aspects

This video shows greatness based on fundamentals


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxmcH_x60oU

Nice memories, thanks for that!

[Craic]

The athletes are much better and the schemes on both sides of the ball are exponentially more complex today but IMO the game is not played as well in significant aspects

This video shows greatness based on fundamentals.

Yep. And . . . low and behold, every single tackle he made in that video, even the sticks, would have been completely legal in today's NFL.

[Count Steeler]

The athletes are much better and the schemes on both sides of the ball are exponentially more complex today but IMO the game is not played as well in significant aspects

This video shows greatness based on fundamentals


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxmcH_x60oU

That brought a chill to my bones and a tear in my eye. The way football is supposed to be played. Why don't we hire him as the tackling coach. Bring him in the preseason and let him drill the defense, then bring him back once a week and remind the defense that we need sure tackles, not attempts to get on the highlight reels.

[Craic]

That brought a chill to my bones and a tear in my eye. The way football is supposed to be played. Why don't we hire him as the tackling coach. Bring him in the preseason and let him drill the defense, then bring him back once a week and remind the defense that we need sure tackles, not attempts to get on the highlight reels.

DING DING DING. We have a winner!

(Except, of course that pesky little thing called the CBA that hampers the idea. A shame, because I think it would limit so many injuries if we did exactly what you said).