Mike Tomlin Finishes With 116 Wins In First 11 Seasons, Second-Most In NFL History

[polamalubeast]

947792804054384640

[Dissolv]

Not first? FIRE HIM! :cuckoo:

[43Hitman]

Cowher's players. :sarcasm: :chuckle:

[tube517]

Dong Wins. :nono: These types of wins don't count. :chuckle:

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Dong Wins. :nono: These types of wins don't count. :chuckle:

Yup, imagine if his clock management skills were better, or if he didn't go for 2 points so often, or if he disciplined his players more often? He wouldn't just be 2nd. :rolleyes:

[pczach]

Yup, imagine if his clock management skills were better, or if he didn't go for 2 points so often, or if he disciplined his players more often? He wouldn't just be 2nd. :rolleyes:


....or if he didn't try to trip players returning kicks and he didn't talk so funny. :chuckle:

[ALLD]

Still lost to the Bears.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

....or if he didn't try to trip players returning kicks and he didn't talk so funny. :chuckle:

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/44163134/obviously.jpg

[Born2Steel]

117 actually. Outlaw caught that winning TD. :stirthepot::deadhorse:

[st33lersguy]

None of those wins count because "DA STEALERS PAYED DA REFS" in all of those wins

[hawaiiansteeler]

Cowher's players. :sarcasm: :chuckle:

Cower would have had more.

Oh wait...

[vasteeler]

Well, he couldn't have done it without Cowhers QB. :couch:

[hawaiiansteeler]

Well, he couldn't have done it without Cowhers QB. :couch:

yeah, the one Cowher didn't want to draft :stirthepot:

[smokin3000gt]

Too bad he's a player's coach with no discipline in his dog house

[hawaiiansteeler]

https://i.imgur.com/cOWxsuq.jpg

[polamalubeast]

947965213252472832

[lipps83]

Cowher's players. :sarcasm: :chuckle:

Big Ben is the only one left, so legit argument still.

:wink02:

[st33lersguy]

Harbaugh's better because he does better against the Cheaters (even though he just lost a home game to the Bengals with the playoffs on the line)

[hawaiiansteeler]

Harbaugh's better because he does better against the Cheaters (even though he just lost a home game to the Bengals with the playoffs on the line)

I must admit, I enjoyed watching the Hairball Brothers both lose this weekend :thumbsup:

[teegre]

There was a guy who posted, on Twitter, that Belichick had a better first 11 seasons... adding the douchey “facts” at the end of his tweet.

Typical (not realizing that Belichick coached the Browns before he coached the Taperiots). But, you know... facts.

[polamalubeast]

Cowher had 109 wins in his first 11 years(1992-2002)...

[fansince'76]

There was a guy who posted, on Twitter, that Belichick had a better first 11 seasons... adding the douchey “facts” at the end of his tweet.

Typical (not realizing that Belichick coached the Browns before he coached the Taperiots). But, you know... facts.

Yeah, because his 36-44 record in Cleveland doesn't count.

But then, most Pats fans also don't know the NFL existed before 2001, so allowances must be made...

[polamalubeast]

I do not want to create another thread, so I'm going to ask this question in this thread, how many current HC will you take in place of Tomlin right now?

There is not many after BB, maybe Sean Payton, since when his defense is average and not historically bad, Payton is very successful, but after maybe Mike Zimmer and Sean McVay, but they are inexperienced right now and they must be successful year after year to be a top coach.We'll see that in the next few year, but the potential is there

[Patriot71]

Why are the Patriots mentioned multible times in this thread? Congrats Tomlin and the Steelers!

[Iron Steeler]

why is there a patriot fan posting in this thread?

Congrats mike tomlin

[teegre]

Why are the Patriots mentioned multible times in this thread? Congrats Tomlin and the Steelers!

For the same reason that Cowher gets mentioned...

[Patriot71]

why is their a patriot fan posting in this thread?

Congrats mike tomlin

I'm acknowledging and impressive accomplishment. It's an NFL thing. I just found the mentions humorous while reading the posts.

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For the same reason that Cowher gets mentioned...


Good point.

[Mojouw]

I do not want to create another thread, so I'm going to ask this question in this thread, how many current HC will you take in place of Tomlin right now?

There is not many after BB, maybe Sean Payton, since when his defense is average and not historically bad, Payton is very successful, but after maybe Mike Zimmer and Sean McVay, but they are inexperienced right now and they must be successful year after year to be a top coach.We'll see that in the next few year, but the potential is there

I'll bite and I'll take a position to spark debate/conversation: No one. Not a single other coach. Why? Tomlin deals with adversity better than all of 'em.

Let's take a look at a handful of the other top coaches shall we? I also freely admit that I am being selective and biased!

1. Pete Carroll - aside from the fact that he is a 110 years young and a refugee from his NCAA violations, it can now be fairly clearly argued that once he was no longer familiar with potential draftees from his college recruiting days the Seahawks stopped making good draft picks. Seriously, how hard is it to find a competent RB, like 50 of them come out every year. Their offensive line looks worse than some of those early 2000's Steelers lines. And now that their defense got old and hurt, Carroll has no answers. Don't even get me started on their WR corps. Plus how can you forget that Jimmy Grahamn exists outside of the red zone? One trick pony that had a series of good drafts because he picked guys he couldn't pay enough to come to USC. Once that well ran dry, the plan seems to be to have Russell Wilson pull a miracle out of his ass every week.

2. Harbaugh - Fraud. Fraud, fraud, fraud. This team can't make an offense work with Wallace, Maclin, and whatever their new RBs name is? Really? There are teams in the NFL that wish they had those skill position guys! 4th and whatever for your entire season and you throw to your old slow TE 8 yards short of the sticks? C'mon man, that has to be a joke right? Like Harbs and Flacco are just screwing with us? You pay Flacco 20+ million dollars and he can't throw down the field in that situation? WTF? This team's next innovative game plan will be their first. Year in and year out, this guy coasts along on amazing defense (which BTW he won't have anymore with Peas retiring!) and an offense that might as well run the single wing or some similarly innovative formation.

3. Payton - Man can he draw up and coach an offense. That is not in question, but he gets too much credit and not enough blame. Like how is he not getting killed for wasting chunks of Brees' prime by just not fielding a defense? I mean can a HC really just throw his hands up on one side of the ball and we are all still supposed to be like - "Hey, he's great. Look at that offense go!" and not notice that they haven't stopped anyone from scoring for most of a decade? Plus how many years did he screw around with Mark Ingram + some scrubs? It is one thing to have him share time with Kamara (kid is lightening in a bottle) but to split time with Khiry Robinson and Travis Cadet? That is just getting too cute for your own good. So now after being in New Orleans for like a dozen years or so, he finally realizes that he needs to build a defense and run the ball. Now he's a great coach? Where was this football 101 for all those years the Saints couldn't beat anyone that was actually any good?

3. McVay - well he certainly needs to get some credit for turning the Rams around. BUT -- BUT...there are some caveats. That defense was fantastic already. On offense, I'm starting to think it may have been more of "Not Jeff Fisher" than "McVay is amazing". So, I'll go with an incomplete and wait before I crown the guy as a really good coach.

4. The field -- McCarthy couldn't win without Aaron Rodgers. Reid had to turn over play calling duties because his schtick has grown stale on offense. Chargers spent the first portion of the season tripping over their own feet. Vikings coach did a really nice job dealing with key injuries and setbacks, but let's win some playoff games first. Who is the Falcons coach again? 28-3 and Sarkesian as OC? I mean come on -- both of those things are just terrible. Carolina and Rivera. Riverboat Ron drafts McCaffery really high so they can do the innovative thing of telegraphing screen passes to him a handful of times a game. Great coaching! I could go one with the rest of these jokers (seriously look at the terrible decisions most of these guys make on a weekly basis!) but you all get the point.

That just leaves the evil hoodie. Besides consistently looking like he woke up from a 3 day drunk, got dressed in a homeless shelter, and showed up to coach the game -- BB has to be the only real option in the discussion. I'm going to go with "nope" because while he knows a ton about football, his consistent attempts to bend and break the rules are sleazy and distasteful.

So, there you go. MojoUW's not totally accurate rant about Tomlin for #!!

[st33lersguy]

Right now just Bellichick

Payton has too many 7-9 seasons on his resume
Carroll's team has proven mediocre without Sherman, Chancellor or Thomas
Mike McCarthy just allowed his team to fall apart with Rodgers
McVay is too inexperienced
Reid has 19 years of experience and no Super Bowl win
Harbaugh has missed the playoffs 4 of 5 years now and currently his team is owned by Marvin Lewis and the f-ing Bengals (sad)

[43Hitman]

For the same reason that Cowher gets mentioned...

You know I was kidding right? I just wanted to make that snarky comment before someone seriously said it. :chuckle:

[polamalubeast]

The Head coaches are weak right now in the nfl ....I mean, how many HC outside of Belichick is going to be in the HOF?

Right now, Tomlin may have the best shot, but Tomlin will need to continue to win when Roethlisberger will retire.

But in the 1980s, the NFL had so many good HC like Bill Parcells, Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs, Tom Landry, Don Shula, Chuck Noll who are all in the HOF!

[polamalubeast]

948258561334923269

[BostonBlackie]

The Head coaches are weak right now in the nfl ....I mean, how many HC outside of Belichick is going to be in the HOF?

Right now, Tomlin may have the best shot, but Tomlin will need to continue to win when Roethlisberger will retire.

But in the 1980s, the NFL had so many good HC like Bill Parcells, Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs, Tom Landry, Don Shula, Chuck Noll who are all in the HOF!

I think Tomlin would have to get in line behind Coughlin at least.

[zulater]

Tomlin will walk into the HOF the first year he's eligible. Great coach. Yes he's been overshadowed by Bellichick. But so was Don Shula and Tom Landry by Vince Lombardi. So was John Madden by Chuck Noll. So was Bill Parcells by Joe Gibbs, Tony Dungy to Bill Bllichick etc..

In other words you can't dismiss Tomlin's tremendous record just because there's been one all time great that's had his number.

Regardless this will be a good year for Tomlin to reverse things. I really think he has the team to go into Gillette and come out with a win. But saying is saying, and doing is doing. So I'll leave it to the team to add to Tomlin's legacy.

[SteelMayhem72]

Yeah, because his 36-44 record in Cleveland doesn't count.

But then, most Pats fans also don't know the NFL existed before 2001, so allowances must be made...This^...pats fans havent heard of the pre 2000s. #bandwagonidiots

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

[pczach]

The Head coaches are weak right now in the nfl ....I mean, how many HC outside of Belichick is going to be in the HOF?

Right now, Tomlin may have the best shot, but Tomlin will need to continue to win when Roethlisberger will retire.

But in the 1980s, the NFL had so many good HC like Bill Parcells, Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs, Tom Landry, Don Shula, Chuck Noll who are all in the HOF!



Part of that is because most of the all-time coaches didn't have to deal with the revolving rosters that current coaches do with free agency and salary caps.

[teegre]

948258561334923269

During that time period, the AFC North had multiple teams in the playoffs in every season except for 2007, 2013, 2016, & 2017

2008: Steelers, Ravens
2009: Ravens, Bengals
2010: Steelers, Ravens
2011: Steelers, Ravens, Bengals
2012: Ravens, Bengals
2014: Steelers, Ravens, Bengals
2015: Steelers, Bengals

[salamander]

948258561334923269

Aside from the past 2 years, the AFC North is also far more competitive than the AFC East ever was, or has been, so that in itself has to be taken into consideration.

[polamalubeast]

948576843627663360

[Patriot71]

Aside from the past 2 years, the AFC North is also far more competitive than the AFC East ever was, or has been, so that in itself has to be taken into consideration.

The only divisions the Patriots lose to more (lower winning percentage over that time) than the AFC East are the AFC West and NFC West. And it isn't by much.

[Patriot71]

This^...pats fans havent heard of the pre 2000s. #bandwagonidiots

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


Actually most Patriots fans old enough can tell you exactly what he did in Cleveland. He had them turned around and was doing a great job until the lame duck "we're moving season". Baltimore won the SB because of the job Belichick did in Cleveland.

Since 2007 the Patriots are 20-7 against the AFC North (Cleveland 3-1, Cinny 3-1, Baltimore 7-3, Pittsburg 7-2). .614 winning percentage. They play the best more often.

Pittsburg 47-16 .706 winning percentage. (cleveland 19-3, Cinny 18-5) a couple of tough teams in those two.

[Mojouw]

Actually most Patriots fans old enough can tell you exactly what he did in Cleveland. He had them turned around and was doing a great job until the lame duck "we're moving season". Baltimore won the SB because of the job Belichick did in Cleveland.

Since 2007 the Patriots are 20-7 against the AFC North (Cleveland 3-1, Cinny 3-1, Baltimore 7-3, Pittsburg 7-2). .614 winning percentage. They play the best more often.

Pittsburg 47-16 .706 winning percentage. (cleveland 19-3, Cinny 18-5) a couple of tough teams in those two.

Almost none of that is true. I mean you have some facts, but leave out others and have things kinda twisted. I actually think BB is about the best coach in the league and the Pats are a well oiled machine under him and Brady. But the kind of revisionist history your post engages in just pisses me off.

You want to talk about "tough teams"? How about the crap-fest that has been the AFC East during the majority of the Pats run? The most serious challenger were some fatally flawed Jets teams led by Rex Ryan and Mark Sanchez. It is an easily researched fact that during the Steelers Tomlin-Ben R run, more AFC North teams have made the playoffs than just about any other division in football. Want to guess the least? I think you know where this is going. I realize all division games are hard, but the Pats have gotten about 4-6 automatic W's per year in the perpetual suck that is the Bills, Dolphins, and Jets. And good for them for getting the wins - you can only beat the teams on your schedule. But let's not twist facts and break our arms patting ourselves on the back, okay? I realize that the Browns are the original factory of sadness, but the Bengals and Ravens are consistently competitive playoff caliber teams - not something that can be said about a single team in the AFC East other than the Patriots.

As for "turning the Browns around" the level of ignorance you need to take on to get that statement out with a straight face is staggering. I will grant that the 1994 squad was solid and going in to 1995 there was talk of a deep playoff run. Until the team totally collapsed. It was not until the team was at 4-5 that Modell announced the move. They lost several straight to almost certainly stall a playoff campaign before the move was announced. So you know, that bit was conveniently left off your little "history". As for "building the team" -- that is kinda over-stating things a bit isn't it? Billy boy swapped Kosar for Testaverde, drafted Eric Turner, Tommy Vardell, and Mike Jackson, and the majority of the rest of the team was already there! Certainly Kevin Mack, Eric Metcalf, and Leroy Hoard were! Clay Matthews and Anthony Pleasant were there on defense. Finally, WTF was there to turn around? This was a team that was one of the best in the AFC from '85-'89. Had two down years and then Billy B was hired. They continued to stink and then had ONE good year with a roster of MOSTLY guys that he had nothing to do with getting!

Oh, did you mean the Ravens run was fueled by Billy B laying a foundation in Cleveland? Yeah - that isn't true either. It was the first Ravens draft with Ogden and Lewis that got that team going. It wasn't until the 2000 season (5 years after the move!) that the Ravens had big success and that roster is almost totally turned over from the team that made the move from Cleveland. So what in the world are you talking about? The remnants of the Browns went 4-12, 6-9-1, 6-10, and 8-8. Again, on the Ravens SB roster, I can't find a single 1995 Cleveland Brown.

I have no problem give the Pats, their fans, and their coaching staff their due. It has been perhaps the most dominant run ever in the NFL, but there is no need to rewrite history to make it look better!

[polamalubeast]

Oh, did you mean the Ravens run was fueled by Billy B laying a foundation in Cleveland? Yeah - that isn't true either. It was the first Ravens draft with Ogden and Lewis that got that team going. It wasn't until the 2000 season (5 years after the move!) that the Ravens had big success and that roster is almost totally turned over from the team that made the move from Cleveland. So what in the world are you talking about? The remnants of the Browns went 4-12, 6-9-1, 6-10, and 8-8. Again, on the Ravens SB roster, I can't find a single 1995 Cleveland Brown.

I think the only one 1995 Browns who was with the Ravens in 2000 was Matt Stover!


Also, since 2002, the only team in AFC East that have had 11 wins in the seasons that Brady played was the Jets in 2010....The Ravens have had four seasons with at least 11 wins and that does not include their super bowl team in 2012.

And the pats fan should know that the ravens have always been hard to beat no matter what their record was ...

The Bengals have had 11 wins or more 3 times since 2002, so it's 7 times for the Ravens / Bengals, only once for the entire AFC East, twice if we include the 2008 dolphins.

[Patriot71]

The Lewis draft pick was BB'S.

- - - Updated - - -

Numbers don't lie my friend.

[DesertSteel]

Numbers don't lie my friend.

Right. Which is why 36-44 with one winning record in five years is a point that is irrefutable.

[Dissolv]

http://www.espn.com/nfl/playoffs/2012/story/_/page/10spot-12week20/2012-nfl-playoffs-how-bill-belichick-made-ray-lewis-raven

I'm pretty sure this is what Patriot71 is referring to. Too bad if you read it what it really says is:


But Belichick never got to use the second No. 1 pick he got back from San Francisco. Before he could, Cleveland fired him and moved the franchise to Baltimore, which inherited the 1996 first-round pick that Belichick had acquired from San Francisco.

So yeah. BB stockpiled a draft choice. He did some scouting and was going to try to get Ray Lewis for the Browns/Patriots. But he got fired first, and the Ravens drafted Ogden and then Lewis before he could. So who drafted him? Not BB. He only wanted to draft him. If you want to try to bend everything into a "Belichick was 100% behind all the Raven's success too", sure knock yourself out. But there are a ton of staff that were working hard and pulling some pretty ballsy moves (like the drama of creating the Ravens in the first place) who are not named "Bill Belichick". The article, like a lot of media, slants the article to ignore this. They could have gone any number of different ways with their draft picks. But they chose......wisely.

I'm pretty sure that the Ravens knew what they were doing without Coach Red stealing Coach Klein's notebook. Thinking differently is fantasy land, but hey, it's not like the Pats have rival to worry about. We do. The Ravens are the best team that we have to beat, year in, and year out. They perpetually knock off one win from our win/loss record (on average). They didn't do this because BB lined them up for life by "fixing" the Browns. They did it by being top to bottom solid as an organization, which is the only way to do it.


Dissolv

[Mojouw]

The Lewis draft pick was BB'S.

- - - Updated - - -

Numbers don't lie my friend.

What numbers? Like show me a single # that says between 2000-2017 that the AFC East was a better division than the AFC North. I mean I have the ability to look things up on the internet and I already know the answer, but I'm honestly trying to see where you are coming from.

BB made a trade in the draft the year before. Arguably a crappy one because he gave up Metcalf and the 10th overall pick to draft some mediocre linebackers. And yes, it did give the Ravens the opportunity to draft Ray Lewis.

Interestingly enough, the 1996 draft is what totally collapsed the Parcells-Kraft relationship. Kraft forced Terry Glenn on Parcells. But I digress, BB had nothing to do with the Ravens success. That was Ozzie Newsome and Brian Billick and Marvin Lewis.

[BostonBlackie]

Almost none of that is true. I mean you have some facts, but leave out others and have things kinda twisted. I actually think BB is about the best coach in the league and the Pats are a well oiled machine under him and Brady. But the kind of revisionist history your post engages in just pisses me off.

You want to talk about "tough teams"? How about the crap-fest that has been the AFC East during the majority of the Pats run? The most serious challenger were some fatally flawed Jets teams led by Rex Ryan and Mark Sanchez. It is an easily researched fact that during the Steelers Tomlin-Ben R run, more AFC North teams have made the playoffs than just about any other division in football. Want to guess the least? I think you know where this is going. I realize all division games are hard, but the Pats have gotten about 4-6 automatic W's per year in the perpetual suck that is the Bills, Dolphins, and Jets. And good for them for getting the wins - you can only beat the teams on your schedule. But let's not twist facts and break our arms patting ourselves on the back, okay? I realize that the Browns are the original factory of sadness, but the Bengals and Ravens are consistently competitive playoff caliber teams - not something that can be said about a single team in the AFC East other than the Patriots.

As for "turning the Browns around" the level of ignorance you need to take on to get that statement out with a straight face is staggering. I will grant that the 1994 squad was solid and going in to 1995 there was talk of a deep playoff run. Until the team totally collapsed. It was not until the team was at 4-5 that Modell announced the move. They lost several straight to almost certainly stall a playoff campaign before the move was announced. So you know, that bit was conveniently left off your little "history". As for "building the team" -- that is kinda over-stating things a bit isn't it? Billy boy swapped Kosar for Testaverde, drafted Eric Turner, Tommy Vardell, and Mike Jackson, and the majority of the rest of the team was already there! Certainly Kevin Mack, Eric Metcalf, and Leroy Hoard were! Clay Matthews and Anthony Pleasant were there on defense. Finally, WTF was there to turn around? This was a team that was one of the best in the AFC from '85-'89. Had two down years and then Billy B was hired. They continued to stink and then had ONE good year with a roster of MOSTLY guys that he had nothing to do with getting!

Oh, did you mean the Ravens run was fueled by Billy B laying a foundation in Cleveland? Yeah - that isn't true either. It was the first Ravens draft with Ogden and Lewis that got that team going. It wasn't until the 2000 season (5 years after the move!) that the Ravens had big success and that roster is almost totally turned over from the team that made the move from Cleveland. So what in the world are you talking about? The remnants of the Browns went 4-12, 6-9-1, 6-10, and 8-8. Again, on the Ravens SB roster, I can't find a single 1995 Cleveland Brown.

I have no problem give the Pats, their fans, and their coaching staff their due. It has been perhaps the most dominant run ever in the NFL, but there is no need to rewrite history to make it look better!


No, I'm not to sure of that. I think if you know what happened in Cleveland, you know he was on the way to turning that franchise around until the looming move destroyed the teams morale. This notion that Belichick was an abject failure in Cleveland is a myth IMO.

Further the notion that Patriots fans are bandwagon fans with no knowlege, or memory, of the Patriots from the sixties through the 90s is another myth. Besides, what are the Steeler fans from outside Pennsylvania but pure bandwagon fans?


https://www.vineyardvines.com/dw/image/v2/AAHW_PRD/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-vineyardvines-master/default/dwc6da021f/images/1TBB302.614.a.zoom.jpg?sw=1184&sh=1410&sm=cut

[Mojouw]

No, I'm not to sure of that. I think if you know what happened in Cleveland, you know he was on the way to turning that franchise around until the looming move destroyed the teams morale. This notion that Belichick was an abject failure in Cleveland is a myth IMO.

Further the notion that Patriots fans are bandwagon fans with no knowlege, or memory, of the Patriots from the sixties through the 90s is crap. Besides, what are the Steeler fans from outside Pennsylvania but pure bandwagon fans?

Again, the binary argument is frustrating. There are many stops between "turning a franchise around" and "abject failure". Nowhere did I say he was a total failure, but he certainly didn't lay a ton of bricks for a strong team to be built on. I know you have the internet and I know you can read, so take a look at the Browns last few rosters and then look at the Ravens first several rosters. They razed that inherited structure to the ground and built a new one up almost brick by brick.

BB built (actually "reinvigorated" is better than "built" because most if it was already there...) a Browns roster that was in "win now" mode in the mid 1990s. They had a window and they missed it. It happens. Then once they moved to Baltimore, the bottom fell out and they went in to a total rebuild. BB's primary contribution to the Browns was the decision to move on from an aging Kosar - a decision that not many would have been able to make. That and unleashing Eric Turner on the NFL - that was cool. Then the defense got old, the RBs got used up, and you were left with Testeverde and Michael Jackson on offense. Moved to Baltimore and the team stunk for several years.

While I don't live and have never lived in PA, I've been a Steelers fan my entire life raised by Steelers fans with deep western PA roots. Like many from the rust belt, after generations my family left the region in pursuit of better economic/career opportunities. This is why Steelers fans "travel well" -- they don't travel, they are already there since 2-3 generations of families essentially fled the region. But you didn't come here for an economic history lesson, so I'll stick to football.

As for knowing what happened in Cleveland and later Baltimore and then Cleveland again, I would say that following the last 25 years or so of AFC Central/North football outta cover the whole "knowing what happened" thing.

Finally, I have not accused anyone of being a bandwagon fan. So not sure where you are getting that from.

My ONLY point was that the previous poster made claims that were not backed by historical events or divisional records. The achievements of BB, Brady, and the Pats are good enough to stand on their own. There is no need to selectively recall history or cherry pick stats in order to burnish their reputations. In particular a retroactive attribution of the Ravens SB and playoff success to BB is absolutely unwarranted by any reasonable standard. I will grant that no one will ever really know what might have been if Modell doesn't move the team.

[BostonBlackie]

Again, the binary argument is frustrating. There are many stops between "turning a franchise around" and "abject failure". Nowhere did I say he was a total failure, but he certainly didn't lay a ton of bricks for a strong team to be built on. I know you have the internet and I know you can read, so take a look at the Browns last few rosters and then look at the Ravens first several rosters. They razed that inherited structure to the ground and built a new one up almost brick by brick.

BB built (actually "reinvigorated" is better than "built" because most if it was already there...) a Browns roster that was in "win now" mode in the mid 1990s. They had a window and they missed it. It happens. Then once they moved to Baltimore, the bottom fell out and they went in to a total rebuild. BB's primary contribution to the Browns was the decision to move on from an aging Kosar - a decision that not many would have been able to make. That and unleashing Eric Turner on the NFL - that was cool. Then the defense got old, the RBs got used up, and you were left with Testeverde and Michael Jackson on offense. Moved to Baltimore and the team stunk for several years.

While I don't live and have never lived in PA, I've been a Steelers fan my entire life raised by Steelers fans with deep western PA roots. Like many from the rust belt, after generations my family left the region in pursuit of better economic/career opportunities. This is why Steelers fans "travel well" -- they don't travel, they are already there since 2-3 generations of families essentially fled the region. But you didn't come here for an economic history lesson, so I'll stick to football.

As for knowing what happened in Cleveland and later Baltimore and then Cleveland again, I would say that following the last 25 years or so of AFC Central/North football outta cover the whole "knowing what happened" thing.

Finally, I have not accused anyone of being a bandwagon fan. So not sure where you are getting that from.

My ONLY point was that the previous poster made claims that were not backed by historical events or divisional records. The achievements of BB, Brady, and the Pats are good enough to stand on their own. There is no need to selectively recall history or cherry pick stats in order to burnish their reputations. In particular a retroactive attribution of the Ravens SB and playoff success to BB is absolutely unwarranted by any reasonable standard. I will grant that no one will ever really know what might have been if Modell doesn't move the team.


Good post.

[lipps83]

Pete Carroll is responsible for the Patriots first 3 SB wins.

[polamalubeast]

Pete Carroll is responsible for the Patriots first 3 SB wins.

If Belichick is responsible for the super bowl of the Ravens in 2000, yes Carroll (and also Parcells) is responsible for the first 3 super bowl of the Patriots.

[slippy]

and please spell Pittsburgh correctly.

[teegre]

BB made a trade in the draft the year before. Arguably a crappy one because he gave up Metcalf and the 10th overall pick to draft some mediocre linebackers. And yes, it did give the Ravens the opportunity to draft Ray Lewis.

Interestingly enough, the 1996 draft is what totally collapsed the Parcells-Kraft relationship. Kraft forced Terry Glenn on Parcells. But I digress, BB had nothing to do with the Ravens success. That was Ozzie Newsome and Brian Billick and Marvin Lewis.

What is interesting about the Ray Lewis pick was that the owner wanted Garrison Hearst, but Ted Machibroda picked a “smaller than ideal” linebacker from Miami. From what I recall, the owner was pissed... and never forgave Marchibroda (despite Marchibroda being correct).

[Mojouw]

What is interesting about the Ray Lewis pick was that the owner wanted Garrison Hearst, but Ted Machibroda picked a “smaller than ideal” linebacker from Miami. From what I recall, the owner was pissed... and never forgave Marchibroda (despite Marchibroda being correct).
I hadn’t heard that one. Well that is certainly a big win in the Marchibroda knowing his stiff column.

[zulater]

I thought this was a thread about Mike Tomlin and his rocketing up the all time wins chart? :noidea:

I'll guess I'll keep looking for a thread pertaining to Tomlin's fantastic record. :coffee:

[tube517]

I thought this was a thread about Mike Tomlin and his rocketing up the all time wins chart? :noidea:

I'll guess I'll keep looking for a thread pertaining to Tomlin's fantastic record with Cowher's players. :coffee:

Fixed. :wink02: :sarcasm: :chuckle:

[polamalubeast]

I'll bite and I'll take a position to spark debate/conversation: No one. Not a single other coach. Why? Tomlin deals with adversity better than all of 'em.

Let's take a look at a handful of the other top coaches shall we? I also freely admit that I am being selective and biased!

1. Pete Carroll - aside from the fact that he is a 110 years young and a refugee from his NCAA violations, it can now be fairly clearly argued that once he was no longer familiar with potential draftees from his college recruiting days the Seahawks stopped making good draft picks. Seriously, how hard is it to find a competent RB, like 50 of them come out every year. Their offensive line looks worse than some of those early 2000's Steelers lines. And now that their defense got old and hurt, Carroll has no answers. Don't even get me started on their WR corps. Plus how can you forget that Jimmy Grahamn exists outside of the red zone? One trick pony that had a series of good drafts because he picked guys he couldn't pay enough to come to USC. Once that well ran dry, the plan seems to be to have Russell Wilson pull a miracle out of his ass every week.

2. Harbaugh - Fraud. Fraud, fraud, fraud. This team can't make an offense work with Wallace, Maclin, and whatever their new RBs name is? Really? There are teams in the NFL that wish they had those skill position guys! 4th and whatever for your entire season and you throw to your old slow TE 8 yards short of the sticks? C'mon man, that has to be a joke right? Like Harbs and Flacco are just screwing with us? You pay Flacco 20+ million dollars and he can't throw down the field in that situation? WTF? This team's next innovative game plan will be their first. Year in and year out, this guy coasts along on amazing defense (which BTW he won't have anymore with Peas retiring!) and an offense that might as well run the single wing or some similarly innovative formation.

3. Payton - Man can he draw up and coach an offense. That is not in question, but he gets too much credit and not enough blame. Like how is he not getting killed for wasting chunks of Brees' prime by just not fielding a defense? I mean can a HC really just throw his hands up on one side of the ball and we are all still supposed to be like - "Hey, he's great. Look at that offense go!" and not notice that they haven't stopped anyone from scoring for most of a decade? Plus how many years did he screw around with Mark Ingram + some scrubs? It is one thing to have him share time with Kamara (kid is lightening in a bottle) but to split time with Khiry Robinson and Travis Cadet? That is just getting too cute for your own good. So now after being in New Orleans for like a dozen years or so, he finally realizes that he needs to build a defense and run the ball. Now he's a great coach? Where was this football 101 for all those years the Saints couldn't beat anyone that was actually any good?

3. McVay - well he certainly needs to get some credit for turning the Rams around. BUT -- BUT...there are some caveats. That defense was fantastic already. On offense, I'm starting to think it may have been more of "Not Jeff Fisher" than "McVay is amazing". So, I'll go with an incomplete and wait before I crown the guy as a really good coach.

4. The field -- McCarthy couldn't win without Aaron Rodgers. Reid had to turn over play calling duties because his schtick has grown stale on offense. Chargers spent the first portion of the season tripping over their own feet. Vikings coach did a really nice job dealing with key injuries and setbacks, but let's win some playoff games first. Who is the Falcons coach again? 28-3 and Sarkesian as OC? I mean come on -- both of those things are just terrible. Carolina and Rivera. Riverboat Ron drafts McCaffery really high so they can do the innovative thing of telegraphing screen passes to him a handful of times a game. Great coaching! I could go one with the rest of these jokers (seriously look at the terrible decisions most of these guys make on a weekly basis!) but you all get the point.

That just leaves the evil hoodie. Besides consistently looking like he woke up from a 3 day drunk, got dressed in a homeless shelter, and showed up to coach the game -- BB has to be the only real option in the discussion. I'm going to go with "nope" because while he knows a ton about football, his consistent attempts to bend and break the rules are sleazy and distasteful.

So, there you go. MojoUW's not totally accurate rant about Tomlin for #!!

Maybe Jon Gruden?!:rofl2: