Bud Dupree one tackle tonight

[Shoes]

This guy is Jarvis Jones #2

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/12/steelers-vs-ravens-winners-losers/

[fansince'76]

Yep. Not acquitting himself well at all this season...

[st33lersguy]

He's fucking sucked this year. What is he doing. Some of the young talent on defense hasn't come through this year

[SteelerFanInStl]

He's playing very poorly. No idea what's wrong with him. He disappears at the LOS. Gets eaten up by blocks or pushed out wide. Looks like he's giving very little effort a lot of the time.

[dislocatedday]

He is my pick for most disappointing Steelers player this season, and it is not even close.

I was really hopeful that he would put it all together this season, but instead he appears to have regressed. While I hate to make this comparison, he does remind me of Jarvis Jones.

The team is batting .500 with 1st round LBs these past few years, with Shazier and TJ being hits, and Jarvis and Dupree being misses. It happens, but unfortunately I think this team is looking at going heavy at the LB position in next year's draft.

[BlackAndGold]

LOL

Jarvis only wish he could be Bud, he's not a star player but this is a knee jerk reaction.

Besides Watt, the whole front 7 got their ass kicked tonight.

I'll wait til the all-22 comes out

[dislocatedday]

While in my post above I said it is not even close that Dupree is my pick for most disappointing Steelers player this season, in retrospect that is not quite true. Dupree is still my pick, but Martavis Bryant is not that far behind him.

I expect Bryant will be traded for a late round pick in the offseason. He looks like a zombie out there on the football field, but that is for another thread and not this one for Dupree.

[Steeldude]

But but Harrison can't equal that kind of output.

One tackle is the evolution of the game.

[Psycho Ward 86]

damn if only we had another good OLB on the team not named TJ Watt. oh well

[SteelMayhem72]

Bud Dupree will be gone, same for Bryant. His earlier in the season antics is what done it for bryant

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

[steelreserve]

"Amazing raw talent, needs time to add a new aspect to his game to succeed at the pro level."

Gets time, never adds a new aspect to his game, doesn't succeed.

Stop drafting these kinds of players. Take the ones who don't need to relearn a core aspect of their game, just get used to the NFL in general.

[FrancoLambert]

All of that off season training he did with a sack guru doesn't amount to :monkey:

[Steeldude]

All of that off season training he did with a sack guru doesn't amount to :monkey:

It's great having a no-impact player using up valuable minutes when a better OLB could use them. Unfortunately, I keep forgetting that it is physically impossible for Harrison to play in coverage.

[43Hitman]

It's great having a no-impact player using up valuable minutes when a better OLB could use them. Unfortunately, I keep forgetting that it is physically impossible for Harrison to play in coverage.
Well I just watched the second half and didn't see much of Harrison, but what I did see from him in the first half is that he looked slow and ordinary. We need another OLB to start doing something. At least TJ showed up.

[Hawkman]

Wow! Crazy game and you found a way to a “Dupree sucks” thread. Everyone on the defense sucked.

[EzraTank]

This team needs DB's, LB's and a TE that doesn't get hurt getting out of bed.

And as much as I loved Harrison I agree with 43Hitman. He looked all of 39 last night.

[SteelMember]

Meh... A lot of folks on D weren't good last night.

[Count Steeler]

To be fair with Harrison, this is like his first pre-season game. Lots of rust on those pads. Give him another game or 2.

[Hawkman]

Meh... A lot of folks on D weren't good last night.

Heyward whiffed three different times..... but we won. What a bitchfest site!

[EzraTank]

To be fair with Harrison, this is like his first pre-season game. Lots of rust on those pads. Give him another game or 2.

He's 39. I remember in my mid 30's when I suddenly realized I couldn't run like it did in my 20's anymore hit me. It's a sad part of getting older that no time in the weight room can stop.

[Count Steeler]

He's 39. I remember in my mid 30's when I suddenly realized I couldn't run like it did in my 20's anymore hit me. It's a sad part of getting older that no time in the weight room can stop.

True enough, but you need to be in the game to get up to game speed. Look how long it took Ben to get up to Ben speed. Harrison has been benched too long.

[DesertSteel]

I think they were getting JH some reps to have him ready for Brady. I've believed all year that their plans for him involved rushing Brady.

[Edman]

Bud isn't doing himself well this season at all. He'll be gone after this year.

[Mojouw]

Bud isn't doing himself well this season at all. He'll be gone after this year.

While he may no longer be in the starting line-up, I highly doubt he is cut. Teams are loathe to give up on 1st round picks and the most they could save would be $1.6 million on the cap.

Dupree as flawed as he is and as frustrating as he is will play out his first contract - just as Jarvis Jones did.

[BlackAndGold]

Bud will be a starter next year, and he'll also have his 5th year option picked up.

[86WARD]

This team needs DB's, LB's and a TE that doesn't get hurt getting out of bed.

And as much as I loved Harrison I agree with 43Hitman. He looked all of 39 last night.

The need LBs, DBs and Blocking TEs. James as a receiver has been fine. McDonald when healthy has been fine. The need a Mark Bruener/Matt Spaeth type that can primarily block and catch an occasional pass. There isn’t enough draft picks to fill all the needs...unless they want to hit the free agency market...which we know how that goes

[BlackAndGold]

Still waiting on a Sean Davis thread about how bad he was last night....

Guess that gifted INT giving people short memory. Gave up two TD's, awful tackling and dumb penalty.

Heyward, Tuitt(the guys that make this defense work upfront) also had 1 tackle

[Steeldude]

Well I just watched the second half and didn't see much of Harrison, but what I did see from him in the first half is that he looked slow and ordinary. We need another OLB to start doing something. At least TJ showed up.

Can't expect much with 11 snaps. How well would any player be in basically his first game after pretty much being benched for 12 weeks? The real sad part is Dupree has looked like crap all year, but his playing time remains.

- - - Updated - - -


Bud will be a starter next year, and he'll also have his 5th year option picked up.

And that would be horrible.

- - - Updated - - -


He's 39. I remember in my mid 30's when I suddenly realized I couldn't run like it did in my 20's anymore hit me. It's a sad part of getting older that no time in the weight room can stop.

But Dupree plays like he is 78 years of age.

[43Hitman]

Can't expect much with 11 snaps. How well would any player be in basically his first game after pretty much being benched for 12 weeks? The real sad part is Dupree has looked like crap all year, but his playing time remains.

- - - Updated - - -



And that would be horrible.

- - - Updated - - -



But Dupree plays like he is 78 years of age.
Yeah but no amount of additional playing time is going to make him run faster. And it hasn't been 12 weeks since he's played, he had some snaps a few weeks ago. I think you are misunderstanding where I may be coming from, I have always respected JH and greatly appreciated his level of play, but the reality is that Father Time has caught up with him. Does that mean he can't have an occasional game where we see flashes of the old James? No, but to sit here and claim he is still the best pass rusher on the team is ludicrous. IF that's the case and he's so awesome he wouldn't need all these extra snaps to get up to speed as you claim.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Yeah but no amount of additional playing time is going to make him run faster. And it hasn't been 12 weeks since he's played, he had some snaps a few weeks ago. I think you are misunderstanding where I may be coming from, I have always respected JH and greatly appreciated his level of play, but the reality is that Father Time has caught up with him. Does that mean he can't have an occasional game where we see flashes of the old James? No, but to sit here and claim he is still the best pass rusher on the team is ludicrous. IF that's the case and he's so awesome he wouldn't need all these extra snaps to get up to speed as you claim.

Bud will be rendered completely inert as a pass rusher next week because he's unable to collapse the pocket and has to go around it instead, and his C gap will be wide open like it has been all season. good players on our defense are going to get schooled next week, but some of them are going to get schooled less. Bud just isnt going to be one of those guys.

[Steeldude]

Yeah but no amount of additional playing time is going to make him run faster. And it hasn't been 12 weeks since he's played, he had some snaps a few weeks ago. I think you are misunderstanding where I may be coming from, I have always respected JH and greatly appreciated his level of play, but the reality is that Father Time has caught up with him. Does that mean he can't have an occasional game where we see flashes of the old James? No, but to sit here and claim he is still the best pass rusher on the team is ludicrous. IF that's the case and he's so awesome he wouldn't need all these extra snaps to get up to speed as you claim.

Harrison has never been fast. He gets by on sheer power, will and determination.

I agree that Harrison's age has affected his overall game, but people were saying this when they let him go a few years back and last year. Dupree needs his time cut. He hasn't shown anything.

No OLB on the team has shown themselves to be better than Harrison at rushing the passer. Watt and Dupree needs stunts or good coverage etc... to get to the QB, for the most part. Very rarely do I see them get a sack on their own merit. Harrison has shown this year that he still has it. He showed it in the Browns'(or Bengals) game when he immediately pushed the LT into the QB. He showed it again when they let him play in the Chiefs' game.

Of course he would need to get up to game speed. Every other player(with substantial playing time) in the league has adjusted to it after weeks 1 and 2. Also, Harrison is coming off a back injury. Age plays a part also. I know when I was in my 20's I didn't even need to stretch. I just rolled out of bed, ate some cereal and was fully ready to go. As I went into my 30's injuries slowed me down. I had to stretch and jog before getting up to speed. I would never get up to speed by playing in one short series and then benched for x-amount of snaps. My legs would be tight sitting so long.

But what is Dupree's excuse? He is young, but looks old, lost and slow to react. I have seen nothing but average in coverage. His run gaps assignments leave a lot to be desired. He pass rushing ability is feeble. His effort on the field is sub-par.

I know you aren't disrespecting Harrison : )

[JayC]

really sucks now after losing shazier. 2 busts and maybe a our star line backer could be done. i wouldn't quite call him a jarvis jones level bust yet but he's well on his way.

[BlackAndGold]

Tomlin: "I laugh a lot of times when people ask me, what’s wrong with the production of our outside linebackers? It lets me know these people don’t understand the evolution of the game of football"

​

[pepsyman1]

Yeah but no amount of additional playing time is going to make him run faster. And it hasn't been 12 weeks since he's played, he had some snaps a few weeks ago. I think you are misunderstanding where I may be coming from, I have always respected JH and greatly appreciated his level of play, but the reality is that Father Time has caught up with him. Does that mean he can't have an occasional game where we see flashes of the old James? No, but to sit here and claim he is still the best pass rusher on the team is ludicrous. IF that's the case and he's so awesome he wouldn't need all these extra snaps to get up to speed as you claim.

I wouldn't try to tell you that James is the same guy, but the last time he had any minutes of significance was against KC and he looked very effective and not slow in that game. I will echo a few others, I would rather give Harrison the minutes and see if he's effective. I've seen nothing out of Bud, so it wouldn't be any loss.

[43Hitman]

I wouldn't try to tell you that James is the same guy, but the last time he had any minutes of significance was against KC and he looked very effective and not slow in that game. I will echo a few others, I would rather give Harrison the minutes and see if he's effective. I've seen nothing out of Bud, so it wouldn't be any loss.

Oh but it would. James at this stage of his career is a liability in coverage. Bud drops into coverage A LOT and that can't be overlooked.

[pepsyman1]

Oh but it would. James at this stage of his career is a liability in coverage. Bud drops into coverage A LOT and that can't be overlooked.

I'll take James and give him a shot. I haven't seen him play any significant time and NOT be effective. I can say that about Dupree. Just because he drops into coverage doesn't mean he's effective. I have seen nothing out of him this season that show's me he is. I've seen Watt drop into coverage and be effective and disruptive.

[Mojouw]

Here is what would happen if JH got significant minutes outside of non-pass rushing situations:

1. Offenses would recognize and key on JH. They would run screens, TE passes, and "smoke" outs to his side of the field in order to isolate and expose Harrison in coverages.
2. Defense then has to adjust and someone else will have to slide down into that side of the field and assist. That opens a hole somewhere else.
3. Receivers may found significantly more room to work on that side of the field. Watt, Dupree, and Chickillo are routinely asked to turn and carry WRs, RBs, and TEs, 8-12 yards down the field all by their lonesome.

In none of those above realities does JH even really get to pass rush. OLB is only a 50% pass rush position in Butler's current version of this scheme. But everyone wanted to ditch the fire-zone and move to Cover 2 or man. This is what happens when you do that. Those "hole in zone" that RBs and TEs used to just kill the Steelers with need to have someone at least running and standing there each play. Guess who that is in base?

I think that JH can still rush the passer and I think that he can still anchor his side in the run game. But he simply doesn't fit the new schematic approach in Pittsburgh. That being said, I would find a few more snaps for him every week.

[Mojouw]

I'll take James and give him a shot. I haven't seen him play any significant time and NOT be effective. I can say that about Dupree. Just because he drops into coverage doesn't mean he's effective. I have seen nothing out of him this season that show's me he is. I've seen Watt drop into coverage and be effective and disruptive.

I don't know for sure, but this may be part of the answer - -through Week 13 the Steelers were the #1 ranked defense against TEs and #3 against short passes.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

[43Hitman]

Here is what would happen if JH got significant minutes outside of non-pass rushing situations:

1. Offenses would recognize and key on JH. They would run screens, TE passes, and "smoke" outs to his side of the field in order to isolate and expose Harrison in coverages.
2. Defense then has to adjust and someone else will have to slide down into that side of the field and assist. That opens a hole somewhere else.
3. Receivers may found significantly more room to work on that side of the field. Watt, Dupree, and Chickillo are routinely asked to turn and carry WRs, RBs, and TEs, 8-12 yards down the field all by their lonesome.

In none of those above realities does JH even really get to pass rush. OLB is only a 50% pass rush position in Butler's current version of this scheme. But everyone wanted to ditch the fire-zone and move to Cover 2 or man. This is what happens when you do that. Those "hole in zone" that RBs and TEs used to just kill the Steelers with need to have someone at least running and standing there each play. Guess who that is in base?

I think that JH can still rush the passer and I think that he can still anchor his side in the run game. But he simply doesn't fit the new schematic approach in Pittsburgh. That being said, I would find a few more snaps for him every week.


I don't know for sure, but this may be part of the answer - -through Week 13 the Steelers were the #1 ranked defense against TEs and #3 against short passes.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

You know the old saying. You can lead a horse to water but...

[Mojouw]

You know the old saying. You can lead a horse to water but...

Yeah...I think I heard that one somewhere...

I think the most frustrating thing is if you make statements on either side, no one really hears what is actually being said.

For instance, my concerns about Harrison's role in the base defense of the 2017 Pittsburgh Steelers is not saying that Dupree > Harrison. Simply that Dupree is a better athlete in space than JH at this point in their respective careers. Butler seems to have placed a higher value on that than pure pass rush ability ( where Deebo>Dupree definitely holds until proven otherwise). So it seems to me that maybe the debate isn't really about Dupree and/or Harrison but about what we think of and want the Steelers base 3-4 to look like.

I, for one, will trade sacks from the OLB position for tighter defense in the passing game. Additionally, the team is second in the league in sacks - so it isn't like they are having a hard time getting to the QB.

[43Hitman]

Yeah...I think I heard that one somewhere...

I think the most frustrating thing is if you make statements on either side, no one really hears what is actually being said.

For instance, my concerns about Harrison's role in the base defense of the 2017 Pittsburgh Steelers is not saying that Dupree > Harrison. Simply that Dupree is a better athlete in space than JH at this point in their respective careers. Butler seems to have placed a higher value on that than pure pass rush ability ( where Deebo>Dupree definitely holds until proven otherwise). So it seems to me that maybe the debate isn't really about Dupree and/or Harrison but about what we think of and want the Steelers base 3-4 to look like.

I, for one, will trade sacks from the OLB position for tighter defense in the passing game. Additionally, the team is second in the league in sacks - so it isn't like they are having a hard time getting to the QB.Right, the sacks are just coming from different positions. VW is a perfect example of this. I would like to see Deebo do his thing too, but not at the expense of being picked apart because of the space we give up to allow him to rush.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[dislocatedday]

Tomlin: "I laugh a lot of times when people ask me, what’s wrong with the production of our outside linebackers? It lets me know these people don’t understand the evolution of the game of football"

​

Do you think Bud has played well this year, and if so where has he excelled?

I'm not criticising you for any positive thoughts you have about Dupree........I am curious what you see in his game that has been an asset to the Steelers this season.

[Steelerette]

Can Dupree play inside?

[Shoes]

Can Dupree play inside?

I'd try it, he isn't doing much outside. He did get a sack last week, but Dalton ran right into his arms.

[BlackAndGold]

Do you think Bud has played well this year, and if so where has he excelled?

I'm not criticising you for any positive thoughts you have about Dupree........I am curious what you see in his game that has been an asset to the Steelers this season.

Well/solid? yes.

He has 5 sacks while mainly dropping into coverage(which is becoming a bigger role for these OLB, this isn't LeBeau's defense anymore where the OLB's have to deliver). Dupree has also been playing great against the run. He's no star player but comparing him to Jarvis is laughable. Jarvis brought nothing to the table as a pass rusher, nor as coverage LB.

#97, and #91 are the guys that have to create the pressure on the QB. They haven't been effective against average to bad o-line for two weeks in a row.

[Shoes]

Well/solid? yes.

He has 5 sacks while mainly dropping into coverage(which is becoming a bigger role for these OLB, this isn't LeBeau's defense anymore where the OLB's have to deliver). Dupree has also been playing great against the run. He's no star player but comparing him to Jarvis is laughable. Jarvis brought nothing to the table as a pass rusher, nor as coverage LB.

#97, and #91 are the guys that have to create the pressure on the QB. They haven't been effective against average to bad o-line for two weeks in a row.


Indeed, but he should be as a R1 pick. All the hype of his freakish athletic ability hasn't amounted to much of anything.

[dislocatedday]

Well/solid? yes.

He has 5 sacks while mainly dropping into coverage(which is becoming a bigger role for these OLB, this isn't LeBeau's defense anymore where the OLB's have to deliver). Dupree has also been playing great against the run. He's no star player but comparing him to Jarvis is laughable. Jarvis brought nothing to the table as a pass rusher, nor as coverage LB.

#97, and #91 are the guys that have to create the pressure on the QB. They haven't been effective against average to bad o-line for two weeks in a row.

Thanks for your observations. Maybe I need to look at Dupree more often. Over the last couple weeks it seemed everytime I saw a run to his side that he was easily getting pushed out of the play. Maybe that wasn't the case, but without going back and explicitly watching him on every play to his side I can't say with certainty just how much this actually happened.

[Mojouw]

Indeed, but he should be as a R1 pick. All the hype of his freakish athletic ability hasn't amounted to much of anything.

Here are all the 1st round DE and OLB draft picks from 2012-2017. http://pfref.com/tiny/xWNTx

A pretty long list of freakish athletic ability that hasn't amounted to much.

Dupree has 0.64 sacks per game started. So other than Bossa and Ray who are running at just under a sack a game clip - the only "pure" OLB on that list that has a better rate is Vic Beasley at .65 per game. Chandler Jones is at .75 but I think he plays alot more DE now.

Does this mean I think Dupree is awesome? Nope. It means I don't think that we are all approaching this from the same standard of evaluation.

The days of the measuring stick being 10+ sacks is likely over. I think it is more complicated now and I am not certain what we should be looking at. I certainly know that Dupree is no Bossa and likely not even a Ray (although playing on the other side of Von Miller likely helps!) but I really am not certain where to rank him after that among the names on that list. Sure his sacks often are of the "dong" variety and he may not really have pass-rush moves, but a quick total sacks/games started ratio says he is on par with other 1st round edge rushers of the past 5 years.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Well/solid? yes.

He has 5 sacks while mainly dropping into coverage(which is becoming a bigger role for these OLB, this isn't LeBeau's defense anymore where the OLB's have to deliver). Dupree has also been playing great against the run. He's no star player but comparing him to Jarvis is laughable. Jarvis brought nothing to the table as a pass rusher, nor as coverage LB.

#97, and #91 are the guys that have to create the pressure on the QB. They haven't been effective against average to bad o-line for two weeks in a row.

if a starting OLB is consistently coming into games dropping into coverage over 50% of the time, that OLB probably just isnt that good at rushing the passer. TJ is way better than any linebacker on the team not named Shazier in coverage (and he drops back a ton accordingly) but he still gets plenty of pressures. So whats Dupree's excuse is my honest question. Ill take pressures over sacks. There are some websites out there like Sportcharts that record the total number of pressures players create but those arent finished until after the season. Im curious to see where Dupree ends up by seasons end because I have a hard time believing anyone would be happy with the number of pressures he is able to create.

Ok, pause. Dupree has been playing great against the run? He was one of the biggest culprits on run defense yesterday, his gap discipline was terrible. http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2017121013/2017/REG14/Ravens@Steelers?icampaign=scoreStrip-globalNav-2017121013#menu=gameinfo%7CcontentId%3A0ap30000008 91348&tab=videos

Thats as clear as day. The only players who were worse against the run were Spence and Moats, one player signed off the street, and another who hasnt played ILB in a couple of years.

i still think Dupree can be a monster. his shoulder injury was reportedly so bad early in the season he couldnt even lift his arm without meds on gameday. maybe hes still hurt, maybe hes just not smart enough to do this right now. i dont know. im not quitting on him yet. hes got one more season to prove himself as far as im concerned, but ive pretty much given up on him for the current season.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Well/solid? yes.

He has 5 sacks while mainly dropping into coverage(which is becoming a bigger role for these OLB, this isn't LeBeau's defense anymore where the OLB's have to deliver). Dupree has also been playing great against the run. He's no star player but comparing him to Jarvis is laughable. Jarvis brought nothing to the table as a pass rusher, nor as coverage LB.

#97, and #91 are the guys that have to create the pressure on the QB. They haven't been effective against average to bad o-line for two weeks in a row.

I must be missing all of these great plays that he's been making against the run. All I ever seem to see is the HB running right past him while he struggles to get off the block or runs too far up field.

I'm a fan of Dupree but I've been very disappointed with his production this year. I thought that this would be the year that he broke out.

[BlackAndGold]

if a starting OLB is consistently coming into games dropping into coverage over 50% of the time, that OLB probably just isnt that good at rushing the passer.

I'll post this again, from Tomlin himself.

Q. In terms of what your defense asks of the outside linebackers, has their role evolved away from being primarily pass-rushers into guys who are asked to do more things in coverage?

A. Without question. And it’s evolved within the last decade, since I’ve been here. Outside linebacker was a rush-man’s position in the early part of my tenure. Guys like LaMarr Woodley and James Harrison were defensive-end-like. They rushed the vast majority of the time. With the evolution of spread football, read-option football, RPOs as the college guys call it – run-pass options – and all the empty backfield stuff, it has become a hybrid position, where they’re asked to do a lot of things: rush, drop in zone, play man-to-man. I just think it’s part of the evolution of football, and I think (outside linebackers) are the most significant components to the adjustments that defenses have made.


That’s why 10 years ago, there were maybe three or four 3-4 teams in the NFL, and that’s why probably half the teams in the NFL now are 3-4 teams. You better have that flexibility in terms of getting people on their feet and playing on their feet, because of the perimeter game, the spread game, and the RPO game.


Q. Within that answer, did you just explain to Steelers Nation why James Harrison isn’t playing a lot of snaps?


A. Or also why Bud Dupree doesn’t have 12 sacks or why T.J. Watt doesn’t have 12 sacks. That position probably is being redefined in a lot of ways by the game. Some of the plays we’ve seen T.J. Watt make in the passing game this year – the big-time interception in Cleveland in his first NFL game, the big-time breakup he had against Jordy Nelson in the Green Bay game a few weeks back – and 10 years ago you never would’ve seen LaMarr Woodley even in a position to make those plays. That’s just the evolution of football. I laugh a lot of times when people ask me, what’s wrong with the production of our outside linebackers? It lets me know these people don’t understand the evolution of the game of football, and I politely answer in some way.

- - - Updated - - -


I must be missing all of these great plays that he's been making against the run. All I ever seem to see is the HB running right past him while he struggles to get off the block or runs too far up field.

I'm a fan of Dupree but I've been very disappointed with his production this year. I thought that this would be the year that he broke out.

Stopping the run is a team effort. Ex: last night the whole front 7 was awful, so was Sean Davis in terms of tackling.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Stopping the run is a team effort. Ex: last night the whole front 7 was awful, so was Sean Davis in terms of tackling.

Sure it is but Dupree isn't doing anything and you said that he was "playing great against the run". I'm not even just talking about last night. I've seen nothing from him against the run.

[Shoes]

Here are all the 1st round DE and OLB draft picks from 2012-2017. http://pfref.com/tiny/xWNTx

A pretty long list of freakish athletic ability that hasn't amounted to much.

Dupree has 0.64 sacks per game started. So other than Bossa and Ray who are running at just under a sack a game clip - the only "pure" OLB on that list that has a better rate is Vic Beasley at .65 per game. Chandler Jones is at .75 but I think he plays alot more DE now.

Does this mean I think Dupree is awesome? Nope. It means I don't think that we are all approaching this from the same standard of evaluation.

The days of the measuring stick being 10+ sacks is likely over. I think it is more complicated now and I am not certain what we should be looking at. I certainly know that Dupree is no Bossa and likely not even a Ray (although playing on the other side of Von Miller likely helps!) but I really am not certain where to rank him after that among the names on that list. Sure his sacks often are of the "dong" variety and he may not really have pass-rush moves, but a quick total sacks/games started ratio says he is on par with other 1st round edge rushers of the past 5 years.

The standard was Pittsburgh needed a pass rusher, they draft Dupree and he isn't excelling at it.

[BlackAndGold]

Sure it is but Dupree isn't doing anything and you said that he was "playing great against the run". I'm not even just talking about last night. I've seen nothing from him against the run.

Have the Steelers been getting gashed in the run game besides yesterday? Nope, seems like he and others have been doing their jobs.

Seeing nothing is a good thing.

- - - Updated - - -


The standard was Pittsburgh needed a pass rusher, they draft Dupree and he isn't excelling at it.

Yet the Steelers are 2nd in sacks.

[Mojouw]

The standard was Pittsburgh needed a pass rusher, they draft Dupree and he isn't excelling at it.

Since the drafting of Bud Dupree, the pass rush - at least in terms of sacks has improved. So where does that leave things?

Like I said, I am a fan of Dupree's potential but I am not a great fan of the player on the field. He is far better than Jones but far below where I would like things to be.

But I do not think that sacks are really the only or even most useful standard to judge Dupree's play.

[Steeldude]

Oh but it would. James at this stage of his career is a liability in coverage. Bud drops into coverage A LOT and that can't be overlooked.

How do you know he is a liability in coverage? Last year PFF reportedly rated Harrison the 3rd best LB in coverage. Now granted, that doesn't mean he was the 3rd best, but it does point out that he is at the very least an average LB in coverage. What has Dupree shown to suggest he is better than Harrison or that he is any good in coverage? Age? Athleticism? Neither means you are good in coverage or even a good football player. For example, Scott Shields was a flop. Also, look at all of the NFL combo warriors who failed. I found Deshea Townsend to be a better CB than Ike Taylor. Taylor's ability to cover left him because he no longer had the speed. Taylor also lacked fundamentals. As for Dupree, to me he is just an athlete who ran a good 40 time for his size. Harrison's ability had nothing to do with his speed. Wasn't his 40 time a 4.9 or worse?

Dupree has dropped into coverage 26% of the time. Harrison last year was 32%. Dupree has defended 3 passes during his 3 year career with no INTs. In those same three years Harrison has 5 passes defensed with 2 INTs in limited playing time. Yes, stats do not always dictate who his better, but it doesn't appear Harrison has been lacking in coverage in the games I have seen, or least I haven't noticed it. According to SteelersDepot, last year Harrison led all LBs(inside and out) in pressures and snaps per pressure. Out of the OLBs last year Harrison dropped into coverage the most too. I don't recall Harrison being a consistent liability in coverage last year. I can't recall his coverage skills being a reason for a loss either.

At this stage of Dupree's career he is supposed to be an impact player.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Have the Steelers been getting gashed in the run game besides yesterday? Nope, seems like he and others have been doing their jobs.

I'd say that the rest of the front 7 have done a good job against the run (outside of the Jags and Bears games) but that doesn't mean that Dupree has also.

I'm still waiting for you to show me something that would make me believe that Dupree is "playing great against the run" like you said.

[Steeldude]

Yet the Steelers are 2nd in sacks.

BR is leading the lead in passing so no need to find another WR, right? Bryant is just fine according to your logic. I mean he hasn't done anything, but that's ok because the Steelers are leading in passing yardage.

[Shoes]

Well the Pats just lost. :chuckle:

[BlackAndGold]

I'd say that the rest of the front 7 have done a good job against the run (outside of the Jags and Bears games) but that doesn't mean that Dupree has also.

I'm still waiting for you to show me something that would make me believe that Dupree is "playing great against the run" like you said.

What you want me to do? post gifs of every game like I'm Steelers Depot? Don't be a clown.

Counting yesterday(wanna see how Tuitt played also), and the Jags games(all around disaster game) were the only times I remember him not controlling his gap against the run. Other than that, I have not noticed him in the run game.

Also I'll change great(since you're taking this dead serious) to "good".

- - - Updated - - -


BR is leading the lead in passing so no need to find another WR, right? Bryant is just fine according to your logic. I mean he hasn't done anything, but that's ok because the Steelers are leading in passing yardage.

Smh.

JuJu: 585 yards receiving including 5 TD's. (JuJu has also missed two games this year, could easily be over 600 yards receiving.)
Bell: 579 receiving yards, 2 TD's.

That's the two receiving options behind Brown.

[Shoes]

Have the Steelers been getting gashed in the run game besides yesterday? Nope, seems like he and others have been doing their jobs.

Seeing nothing is a good thing.

- - - Updated - - -



Yet the Steelers are 2nd in sacks.

and Dupree isn't playing up to what they expected. It will be interesting to see if they extend his contract. We'll see where we are in a year or so with him.

[BlackAndGold]

and Dupree isn't playing up to what they expected. It will be interesting to see if they extend his contract.

He's doing exactly what they're asking. So what you mean?

More Tomlin

Q. Concentrating on the three young outside linebackers, how would you evaluate your three young outside linebackers – Bud Dupree, T.J. Watt, and Anthony Chickillo?

A. It has been exceptional play. We’re getting quality play from those guys, for the reasons I just talked about. I highlighted a couple of plays that really stand out to you in terms of those guys making plays in space and in coverage and in the things we ask them to do. It’s important. That position is being shaped and shaped in a big way by the evolution of football, and their ability to adjust will define them and their careers, because they’re very young, but also define us as a defensive unit in terms of how we evolve in the upcoming seasons. It’s really an interesting time from that perspective. It’s great to be in this game long enough to see the tides as they turn, and then have to maybe forecast and adjust.

[Shoes]

He's doing exactly what they're asking. So what you mean?

More Tomlin

Tomlin and Lebeau had the same talking points about Jarvis Jones, up until they booted him.

[Mojouw]

and Dupree isn't playing up to what they expected. It will be interesting to see if they extend his contract. We'll see where we are in a year or so with him.

I agree that the real decision point with Dupree will be if his 5th year option is picked up.

[Steeldude]

What you want me to do? post gifs of every game like I'm Steelers Depot? Go back and watch the games. Don't be a clown.

Counting yesterday, and the Jags games(all around disaster) were the only time I remember him not controlling his gap against the run. Other than that, I have not noticed him in the run game.

- - - Updated - - -



Smh.

JuJu: 585 yards receiving including 5 TD's. (JuJu has also missed two games this year, could easily be over 600 yards receiving.)
Bell: 579 receiving yards, 2 TD's.

That's the two receiving options behind Brown.

So then no need to upgrade the WR position, in your opinion. Two WRs are just fine and nothing else is needed. We also don't need to upgrade the TE's because the Steelers are first in passing yardage. Just because the Steelers are second in sacks does not mean one should be content with Dupree's lack of ability to get to the QB.

Dupree was not good in the Bears' game against the run. On this play he gets washed inside be the TE and then flat out just jogged after the Bears' RB right after.

https://i2.wp.com/www.thepointofpittsburgh.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/CohenTDRunInOT.gif?w=640

[BlackAndGold]

Dupree was not good in the Bears' game against the run. On this play he gets washed inside be the TE and then flat out just jogged after the Bears' RB right after.

https://i2.wp.com/www.thepointofpittsburgh.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/CohenTDRunInOT.gif?w=640
Look at that hold on Haden, that plays doesn't happen if he doesn't. Bud needed to play better there but assuming this is one play, then it's just one play. No one plays consistent on every play. Shazier should have played better on that play also. Wilcox....smh

Want to point out just incase you forgot, Bud was still in "treatment protocol" for his shoulder until the Bengals game. Something to consider watching the games early in the season.

Either way thanks for the gif. Was barely able to watch this game at a bar, glad I didn't.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/09/tomlin-hints-olb-position-play-run-wasnt-main-issue-bears/ Just wanted to post a link since this was the Bears game, Tomlin didn't blame the OLB's for the Bears success running the ball.

- - - Updated - - -


Tomlin and Lebeau had the same talking points about Jarvis Jones, up until they booted him.

I'd take that serious if Bud was Jarvis, but he's not. If someone starts taking away his snaps, I'll believe it.

[Shoes]

Look at that hold on Haden, that plays doesn't happen if he doesn't. Bud needed to play better there but assuming this is one play, then it's just one play. No one plays consistent on every play. Shazier should have played better on that play also. Wilcox....smh

Want to point out just incase you forgot, Bud was still in "treatment protocol" for his shoulder until the Bengals game. Something to consider watching the games early in the season.

Either way thanks for the gif. Was barely able to watch this game at a bar, glad I didn't.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/09/tomlin-hints-olb-position-play-run-wasnt-main-issue-bears/ Just wanted to post a link since this was the Bears game, Tomlin didn't blame the OLB's for the Bears success running the ball.

- - - Updated - - -



I'd take that serious if Bud was Jarvis, but he's not. If someone starts taking away his snaps, I'll believe it.The 2018 draft may give us a real hint.

[SteelerFanInStl]

What you want me to do? post gifs of every game like I'm Steelers Depot? Don't be a clown.

Counting yesterday(wanna see how Tuitt played also), and the Jags games(all around disaster game) were the only times I remember him not controlling his gap against the run. Other than that, I have not noticed him in the run game.

Also I'll change great(since you're taking this dead serious) to "good".

You're getting butt hurt about it so I'll just drop it.

I like Bud and hope that he can turn into a great player but this season hasn't shown me any signs of that.

[Steeldude]

You're getting butt hurt about it so I'll just drop it.

I like Bud and hope that he can turn into a great player but this season hasn't shown me any signs of that.

IMO, Dupree is someone who had a good combine. I don't see him as a good football player, at least not yet.

[Mojouw]

Are we going to talk about Sean Davis? I mean if we’re droning on and on about hyped draft choices who continue to disappoint. Plus Davis directly causes TDs for the other team.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Psycho Ward 86]

Are we going to talk about Sean Davis? I mean if we’re droning on and on about hyped draft choices who continue to disappoint. Plus Davis directly causes TDs for the other team.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

he hasnt consistently failed in the way Dupree has this season. Davis directly saved a bunch of TD's up until now. i think Dupree is getting more fingers pointed at him because we have an OLB in reserve that could be make him replaceable. Davis, not so much. He sure makes me wonder if we need 2 safeties to replace and not 1 though

[Mojouw]

he hasnt consistently failed in the way Dupree has this season. Davis directly saved a bunch of TD's up until now. i think Dupree is getting more fingers pointed at him because we have an OLB in reserve that could be make him replaceable. Davis, not so much. He sure makes me wonder if we need 2 safeties to replace and not 1 though

In each of the Steelers loses and in several of the games where they gave up large # of point, Sean Davis has had multiple points of failure. I can think of 3 plays against TEs in the endzone and the INT against the Ravens that went well. Other than that, Sean Davis has struggled in run support, had multiple Artie Burns level brain cramps in coverage, and is now taking penalties as well.

Truth be told, I still really like all three players (Burns, Davis, and Dupree) but I feel like certain players get singled out as targets for criticism and other players don't. Just as underwhelmed as I have been by Dupree, I have been equally underwhelmed by Davis.

[BlackAndGold]

You're getting butt hurt about it so I'll just drop it.

I like Bud and hope that he can turn into a great player but this season hasn't shown me any signs of that.

Thank goodness.

Not every player on the team is going to be "great". Bud is a solid football player who has dealt with injury that is doing what the coaches have asked. Once fans accept that the OLB's are used differently then they use to they'll understand.

But if you want a great OLB, Watt looks to be that player.

- - - Updated - - -


The 2018 draft may give us a real hint.

I'd be shocked if they took an OLB highly, maybe one late for depth.

TE/ILB/safety/o-line are higher on the list.

[zulater]

Anyone notice where Watt lined up on the game ending sack? In case you didn't he lined up over the right tackle ( Harrison was lined up over the left tackle, Watt's normal spot) So that should tell you something about how the Steelers are seeing Bud.

[Mojouw]

Anyone notice where Watt lined up on the game ending sack? In case you didn't he lined up over the right tackle ( Harrison was lined up over the left tackle, Watt's normal spot) So that should tell you something about how the Steelers are seeing Bud.

Great point. Which illustrates the debate in this and other threads. In a sense, everyone is "right".

1. Harrison is the superior pass rusher to Bud Dupree.
2. Dupree does things down the field and in space that the Steelers value over what Harrison can do around and behind the line of scrimmage.

As a result, Harrison goes into the game in all out pass-rush scenarios and Dupree plays in all other scenarios. Hopefully as the Steelers move forward, they get in more game situations where they are up big and JH can just come in and bull rush tackles into the QB!

[BlackAndGold]

Anyone notice where Watt lined up on the game ending sack? In case you didn't he lined up over the right tackle ( Harrison was lined up over the left tackle, Watt's normal spot) So that should tell you something about how the Steelers are seeing Bud.

Harrison played 11 snaps. If it wasn't for injuries to Ryan and Tyler he doesn't dress. I wouldn't read to much into it.

[Mojouw]

Thank goodness.

Not every player on the team is going to be "great". Bud is a solid football player who has dealt with injury that is doing what the coaches have asked. Once fans accept that the OLB's are used differently then they use to they'll understand.

But if you want a great OLB, Watt looks to be that player.

- - - Updated - - -



I'd be shocked if they took an OLB highly, maybe one late for depth.

TE/ILB/safety/o-line are higher on the list.

They were really high on the dude from Nowhere State that they took in the 7th round or something. Interesting to see what he brings in camp. But you are on to something. They likely will have to take at least one OLB as arguably neither Harrison nor Moats will be on the 2018 roster.

[BlackAndGold]

They were really high on the dude from Nowhere State that they took in the 7th round or something. Interesting to see what he brings in camp. But you are on to something. They likely will have to take at least one OLB as arguably neither Harrison nor Moats will be on the 2018 roster.

lol. nowhere state

You thinking of Keion Adams? yea they were, sucks he got hurt. Good athlete, great bend, long arms. Hoping they found a gem.

[Mojouw]

lol. nowhere state

You thinking of Keion Adams? yea they were, sucks he got hurt. Good athlete, great bend, long arms. Hoping they found a gem.

That's the guy.

[43Hitman]

lol. nowhere state

You thinking of Keion Adams? yea they were, sucks he got hurt. Good athlete, great bend, long arms. Hoping they found a gem.

They were loving what he was showing in camp before his injury.

[zulater]

Harrison played 11 snaps. If it wasn't for injuries to Ryan and Tyler he doesn't dress. I wouldn't read to much into it.

Harrison is incidental to my point. It's that in a crucial situation they chose to keep Bud on the sidelines.

[Mojouw]

"Dupree actually has more pressures than Watt too. 25.5 to 20.5 on my latest count. And he’s dropping into coverage at a pretty decent clip (though no, not as often as Watt).Don’t misunderstand me. Ask me who is playing better, Watt or Dupree, and it’s Watt. Clearly. But that might just mean Watt is special, not that Dupree is dismal."

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/12/kozora-dont-give-bud-dupree/

Pretty much echoes the debate around here. Dupree is not as good as one would like but is not in Jarvis Jones territory either. Alex has already broken down Dupree's technique issues here -- http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/11/film-room-good-bad-ugly-bud-dupree/

The more I think about it, the more I figure Dupree is going to fall out somewhere between Melvin Ingram, Jerry Hughes, and Nick Perry and other "late bloomers" as pass rushers. Guys that took a few seasons to impact. It is also important to note that Dupree has only played in 35 NFL games and started only 21 of those. While needing that many games to "impact" is worrying for a first round pick.

But as I posted earlier, there are few 1st round picks drafted in the last 5 years that are putting up per game started sack #'s higher than Dupree. And on second look, I'm not as excited about Ray's #'s. They were good last year, but amount to 1 sack in 7 games this year w/ 6 of those being full starts.

Clearly, I would rather magically have Chandler Jones, Myles Garrett, or Joey Bossa but outside of those guys the comparable #'s and players say there is still room for optimism surrounding Dupree for the long-term.

Now, all that being said -- what about the short term? That is where some are starting to sway me. I was really against the use of Harrison extensively because I was only looking at things in a longer view. But if I change the perspective to just the 2017 season, then yeah I can start seeing situations/scenarios where Harrison needs to be on the field more.

Where does that leave me? I want to see Harrison be given a chance in crucial pass rush situations to make an impact. Perhaps the best is that he comes in at Watt's spot and Watt takes on the LT in place of Dupree. But I still argue that the door has not shut on Dupree developing into an above average or better pass rusher. He generates pressures and sacks at a rate far above anything Jarvis Jones dreamed of and the underlying pass rush measures leave room for hope that Dupree still has a "break out" on the horizon.

[Psycho Ward 86]

The more I think about it, the more I figure Dupree is going to fall out somewhere between Melvin Ingram, Jerry Hughes, and Nick Perry and other "late bloomers" as pass rushers. Guys that took a few seasons to impact.

My hunch as well. I just have no faith in Bud pulling it off this season, but it would be a pleasant surprise if he did it sooner, rather than later. To be fair i think fans in general wouldnt be as harsh on Bud if we were actually getting injury updates on that shoulder.

Speaking of Nick Perry, it would be nice if Bud plays like him when injured. Perry, for all the playing time he has missed, has played through a ton of injuries and had some of his best games in those moments. But thats wishful thinking

[Iron Steeler]

Dupree has definately regress a little this season.

Such wide angles getting the QB. Struggling to defend the run.

Maybe move him around the line if he is struggling. Sometime a confidence booster gets your right back into it.

4.5 40 at 270 lbs he should be a all pro LB every year

[Steeldude]

Dupree's NFL combine report still holds true

Weaknesses: Tall but not long. Wins with athleticism over skill at this point. Some scouts believe his instincts are below average, leading to hesitation. Will get caught taking bad angles to the ball. Needs to improve hand fighting. Still raw rushing the passer. Doesn't possess a go-to pass-rush move. Appears to lack urgency in-game.

[cubanstogie]

I think Dupree has always been the big fish in a small pond. He has gotten by on natural talent and in the NFL you have to have the drive and work ethic. I watched Jon Randle on an NFL life and it was the exact opposite story of Dupree. What a beast Randle was. At this point Dupree is not a finisher.

[BlackAndGold]

.....

[Neversatisfied]

Jarvis Dupree...I mean Bud Jones

[pczach]

I thought Dupree had a pretty good game. He had a sack and a few pressures.

Don't let the loss determine how you judge a player. Bud played pretty well.

[Steeldude]

I thought Dupree had a pretty good game. He had a sack and a few pressures.

Don't let the loss determine how you judge a player. Bud played pretty well.

The guy was a non-factor, as usual.

[pczach]

The guy was a non-factor, as usual.


No he wasn't. You just choose to see it that way.

[st33lersguy]

I thought Dupree had a pretty good game. He had a sack and a few pressures.

Don't let the loss determine how you judge a player. Bud played pretty well.

One sack and a few pressures a game seem to be this guys ceiling. His best ability seems to be getting pushed out of the way from the QB

[pczach]

One sack and a few pressures a game seem to be this guys ceiling. His best ability seems to be getting pushed out of the way from the QB


They weren't able to run the ball to his side and he got a sack and some pressures. That's a good game.

[Steeldude]

They ran on his side and he missed a tackle he should have made. Dupree was a non-factor.

[Craic]

They ran on his side and he missed a tackle he should have made. Dupree was a non-factor.

Nonfactor: something or someone that does not actively contribute to the production of a result.

A sack and pressures means he was a factor in the game. He may not have affected the game at the level you believe he should. I'd agree with that, but it's literally untrue that he was a nonfactor.

[BlackAndGold]

https://media.giphy.com/media/aRyxQ59LfSKOc/giphy.gif

A sack, few pressures on the QB, 2 nice plays to stop the run=non factor.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Bud made some plays today. You've got to give him some credit.

[pczach]

They ran on his side and he missed a tackle he should have made. Dupree was a non-factor.


You know who was a non-factor? James Harrison.

Why don't you just stick to telling everyone how great James Harrison is. It's what you're best at.

[Steeldude]

You know who was a non-factor? James Harrison.

Why don't you just stick to telling everyone how great James Harrison is. It's what you're best at.

Someone is a little sensitive that his hero Dupree has been a disappointment since he arrived.

You are correct. A player that did not play in the game was a non-factor. Terry Bradshaw was a non-factor in the game also.

I see you are good at whining. I guess you are sticking to what you are good at.

As for Harrison, he is still the superior pass rusher until proven otherwise. That just kills you doesn't it?

[pczach]

Someone is a little sensitive that his hero Dupree has been a disappointment since he arrived.

You are correct. A player that did not play in the game was a non-factor. Terry Bradshaw was a non-factor in the game also.

I see you are good at whining. I guess you are sticking to what you are good at.

As for Harrison, he is still the superior pass rusher until proven otherwise. That just kills you doesn't it?


Right. The guy that thinks that his 39 year old hero should be playing every snap and bashes the young guy and trashes him even when he has a good game is accusing someone else of being a whiner. The same guy that makes multiple posts in every thread about the subject is calling someone else a whiner.

:hurt:

Get a grip.

[Steeldude]

https://media.giphy.com/media/aRyxQ59LfSKOc/giphy.gif

A sack, few pressures on the QB, 2 nice plays to stop the run=non factor.

Wasn't he untouched for that sack? Ok, he is a factor when he isn't blocked. So his next sack will come in 5 or 6 games? The guy also missed a tackle too. I don't have the All-22 so I can't say for sure when he did on every play.

Actually, I don't remember seeing him on the field as much as he usually is. I know they rushed him from both sides. I don't recall him as being much of a threat to do anything. Isn't this his fourth year? When is his breakout game coming?

He is what he was in college. He will get you a sack or a tackle once in awhile, but that's about his ceiling. There never seems to be a consistent threat from him.

If you think he is a terror on the field then so be it. I see him as a complete bust at this point.

[st33lersguy]

Bud Dupree has been a massive disappointment all year. All that athletic ability, and he's barely done anything outside of getting pushed out of the way of the QB. All that blathering from Chuck Smith hasn't amounted to jack squat. I was hoping he would break out and really provide a big boost and instead he's been almost entirely useless

[Steeldude]

Right. The guy that thinks that his 39 year old hero should be playing every snap and bashes the young guy and trashes him even when he has a good game is accusing someone else of being a whiner. The same guy that makes multiple posts in every thread about the subject is calling someone else a whiner.

:hurt:

Get a grip.

It seems you are getting upset because Dupree is a bust so far. Try to relax. I think Harrison should have been used more this season.


bashes the young guy and trashes him even when he has a good game is accusing someone else of being a whiner

Your whining about my opinion on Dupree. Age has nothing to do with it. Dupree could be 20, 30 or 40, it makes no difference. The fact is he has not lived up to his first round status. As of now he appears to be a bust. A player who can make a play once in awhile. There is a long list of players like that in the NFL.

I wasn't even thinking of Harrison when I created my initial post-game post here.

But I do agree with you that a player who did not play in the game was a non-factor. See? We agree on something : )

[BlackAndGold]

942544545463418881

[Shoes]

942544545463418881

He was hardly touched, just like the Bengals game, Dalton ran into his arms for the sack. Now if Dupree is nursing an injury I'm willing to give him some rope. The real pressure came from Tuitt & Heyward, but Im glad he got the sack.

[fansince'76]

He was hardly touched, just like the Bengals game, Dalton ran into his arms for the sack. Now if Dupree is nursing an injury I'm willing to give he some rope. The real pressure came from Tuitt & Heyward, but Im glad he got the sack.

Dong sack! :chuckle:

[st33lersguy]

942544545463418881

Congratulations on what his 2nd good play in 14 games this year?

[BlackAndGold]

He was hardly touched, just like the Bengals game, Dalton ran into his arms for the sack. Now if Dupree is nursing an injury I'm willing to give he some rope.

Because he flew right by him, even after getting contact on Gronk which slowed him down on his route. He beat him, that is the only thing that matters, he also came close to another sack in the game.

It was well known his shoulder isn't that healthy, it's improved but not 100%. If you have to get a 2nd opinion it's usually because the first opinion was surgery of some sorts. I feel confident that we'll hear him having a procedure done in the offseason.

[BlackAndGold]

Congratulations on what his 2nd good play in 14 games this year?

Yeah 6 sacks this year while having a lot of focus dropping in coverage which has helped fix the problem of teams killing us with dump off passes to TE's and RB's.

2nd good play of the year, lol.

[st33lersguy]

Yeah 6 sacks this year while having a lot of focus dropping in coverage which has helped fix the problem of teams killing us with dump off passes to TE's and RB's.

2nd good play of the year, lol.

Don't forget the billion or so times he gets completely pushed out of the play too. Yep like Davis and Burns another highly drafted defender that's been a major disappointment this year

[DesertSteel]

I didn’t hear Watt’s name called tonight. Just sayin.

[fansince'76]

I didn’t hear Watt’s name called tonight. Just sayin.

Kid is balls out every play. Hit the rookie wall, IMO.

[BlackAndGold]

Don't forget the billion or so times he gets completely pushed out of the play too. Yep like Davis and Burns another highly drafted defender that's been a major disappointment this year

lol, "billion"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqxPjT_OVOQ

I've seen Shazier get completely pushed out of plays and awfully miss on tackles. This is the NFL, players are going to get beat on some plays, or sometimes a whole game, they're playing other professionals.

I just laugh when people say he's Jarvis Jones or some bust. A bust isn't going to be playing, they get replaced by some over the hill veteran(Jarvis/Harrison).

- - - Updated - - -


Kid is balls out every play. Hit the rookie wall, IMO.

Steelers also played with a lot of packages which included 3 D-lineman, and 1 OLB.

They moved the OLB's around a bit it seems. Believe Watt started the game lined up at ILB.

[Mojouw]

What is folks measuring stick? Oh right. It’s totally arbitrary and fluid. That way preconceived notions are always correct.

Convenient that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Kid is balls out every play. Hit the rookie wall, IMO.

Yeah, but should at least get a Watt-wall-de-dong sack.

[Steeldude]

I just laugh when people say he's Jarvis Jones or some bust. A bust isn't going to be playing.

Then explain Jarvis Jones, Mendenhall and Ziggy Hood receiving extensive playing time and starting positions. They were all busts.

Similar excuses used for Dupree were heard when certain fans defended Kordell, Woodley, Gildon and Jones.

- - - Updated - - -


Kid is balls out every play. Hit the rookie wall, IMO.

Watt appeared winded at times.

[steelcityboyz]

Then explain Jarvis Jones, Mendenhall and Ziggy Hood receiving extensive playing time and starting positions. They were all busts.

Similar excuses used for Dupree were heard when certain fans defended Kordell, Woodley, Gildon and Jones.

- - - Updated - - -



Watt appeared winded at times.Watt goes 100 miles an hour every play some other players should pattern themselves after him. Not worried about TJ at all, if he stays healthy he's going to be great.

[Steeldude]

Watt goes 100 miles an hour every play some other players should pattern themselves after him. Not worried about TJ at all, if he stays healthy he's going to be great.

I agree, but when you become overly fatigued you can miss plays and you have a greater chance of being injured.

[steelcityboyz]

I agree, but when you become overly fatigued you can miss plays and you have a greater chance of being injured.Good point. I don't understand why they don't spell watt with harrison it's not like the defense will see any drop off if anything a fresh body has a chance for the big play.

[BlackAndGold]

Then explain Jarvis Jones, Mendenhall and Ziggy Hood receiving extensive playing time and starting positions. They were all busts..

Ziggy: He backed up Aaron Smith, if Smith didn't get hurt his last 3 years doubt Hood plays much.
Mendenhall: Had two 1000 yard seasons until his ACL injury which he never recovered from. Seasons before his injury, 2009: 1,108 yards, 4.6 avg, 7 TD's 2010: 1,273 yards, 3.9 avg, 13 TD's.
Jarvis: Was always splitting snaps with Harrison since his 2nd season when he fractured his wrist. They weren't happy with his play, coaching staff gave him chances but they always ended up playing #92.

[pczach]

It seems you are getting upset because Dupree is a bust so far. Try to relax. I think Harrison should have been used more this season.



Your whining about my opinion on Dupree. Age has nothing to do with it. Dupree could be 20, 30 or 40, it makes no difference. The fact is he has not lived up to his first round status. As of now he appears to be a bust. A player who can make a play once in awhile. There is a long list of players like that in the NFL.

I wasn't even thinking of Harrison when I created my initial post-game post here.

But I do agree with you that a player who did not play in the game was a non-factor. See? We agree on something : )


You're the guy that spews this crap about Dupree and Harrison all over this message board, not me. If you can't see that, then that's on you. I'm simply commenting in a thread about Dupree where he did have a sack on Tom Brady on a night when they only had a few.

You choose to refuse to make an unbiased judgement on his play in one game.

You will probably continue to call him Jarvis Jones and continue to vomit your hate about him and mention Harrison in every single thread that you post in.

I haven't been giving you shit about it in all those other threads. I'm calling you on it here. Everyone is sick of your shit as you bang the drum on one issue over and over again. You are the one hung up about this....not me.

[Steeldude]

Congratulations on what his 2nd good play in 14 games this year?

Haha

[Steeldude]

You're the guy that spews this crap about Dupree and Harrison all over this message board, not me. If you can't see that, then that's on you. I'm simply commenting in a thread about Dupree where he did have a sack on Tom Brady on a night when they only had a few.

You choose to refuse to make an unbiased judgement on his play in one game.

You will probably continue to call him Jarvis Jones and continue to vomit your hate about him and mention Harrison in every single thread that you post in.

I haven't been giving you shit about it in all those other threads. I'm calling you on it here. Everyone is sick of your shit as you bang the drum on one issue over and over again. You are the one hung up about this....not me.

Overreact much?


Everyone is sick of your shit

Then perhaps they should place me on ignore. Although it appears that many people on here and other MBs agree that Harrison should receive some snaps. Harrison did very well in the Chiefs game with only 15 snaps.

Dupree is an OLB. Harrison is an OLB. Dupree hasn't done much all year. Hence the reason fans talk about it. Now I realize you think Dupree is lights out and the next Derrick Thomas, but the games tell a different story.

I have yet to call Dupree by the name of Jarvis Jones. Your love for Dupree has confused you.


You choose to refuse to make an unbiased judgement on his play in one game.

That's your incorrect opinion. Yep, an unblocked sack and a tackle is nothing to jump up and down for.


You are the one hung up about this....not me

I am merely making a comment on the situation with the OLBs. If it bothers you so much just block me. This way you won't stress out so much. Think about it : )

[Mojouw]

What is folks measuring stick? Oh right. It’s totally arbitrary and fluid. That way preconceived notions are always correct.

Convenient that.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/12/steelers-vs-patriots-positional-grades-3/

"Off the edge, Bud Dupree had a big game, recording 2 tackles, 2 tackles for loss, 1 sack and 1 tackle for loss, consistently coming off the edge with speed and power, creating problems for the Patriots."

I mean that sounds like there was a basis for more than a "non-factor" designation there for Dupree. But, again, I really don't know what everyone is using for a measuring stick and I do not believe we are all using the same one. That is fine, but likely a source of much of the disagreement. Additionally, one decent(ish) game doesn't salvage an entire underwhelming season.

[Hawkman]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/12/steelers-vs-patriots-positional-grades-3/

"Off the edge, Bud Dupree had a big game, recording 2 tackles, 2 tackles for loss, 1 sack and 1 tackle for loss, consistently coming off the edge with speed and power, creating problems for the Patriots."

I mean that sounds like there was a basis for more than a "non-factor" designation there for Dupree. But, again, I really don't know what everyone is using for a measuring stick and I do not believe we are all using the same one. That is fine, but likely a source of much of the disagreement. Additionally, one decent(ish) game doesn't salvage an entire underwhelming season.

Sounds more like a factor....to me.:wink02:

[pczach]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/12/steelers-vs-patriots-positional-grades-3/

"Off the edge, Bud Dupree had a big game, recording 2 tackles, 2 tackles for loss, 1 sack and 1 tackle for loss, consistently coming off the edge with speed and power, creating problems for the Patriots."

I mean that sounds like there was a basis for more than a "non-factor" designation there for Dupree. But, again, I really don't know what everyone is using for a measuring stick and I do not believe we are all using the same one. That is fine, but likely a source of much of the disagreement. Additionally, one decent(ish) game doesn't salvage an entire underwhelming season.


Why even bother showing everyone what anyone that understands football and knows what they're looking at could easily see in this game? The people that have preconceived opinions aren't going to be swayed by facts and evidence to prove them wrong.

It doesn't make him a dominant pass rusher. It just means he had a good game.

Just a little bit of perspective. This place can use some.

Thanks for the link.

[st33lersguy]

One good game out of 14 so far, otherwise he's been a massive disappointment this year

[tube517]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/12/steelers-vs-patriots-positional-grades-3/

"Off the edge, Bud Dupree had a big game, recording 2 tackles, 2 tackles for loss, 1 sack and 1 tackle for loss, consistently coming off the edge with speed and power, creating problems for the Patriots."

I mean that sounds like there was a basis for more than a "non-factor" designation there for Dupree. But, again, I really don't know what everyone is using for a measuring stick and I do not believe we are all using the same one. That is fine, but likely a source of much of the disagreement. Additionally, one decent(ish) game doesn't salvage an entire underwhelming season.

Are those Dong TFL's or just TFL's? :chuckle:

[Born2Steel]

I'm somewhat confused. Are we happy or disappointed with Bud Dupree?

[tube517]

I'm somewhat confused. Are we happy or disappointed with Bud Dupree?

Define "We"...

[Mojouw]

Are those Dong TFL's or just TFL's? :chuckle:

Worse. They are Wor-Dong TFLs. Combining the best of Gildon and Worilds - both storied pass rushers! :rofl2:

[Born2Steel]

Define "We"...

"We" - Small, or to take a pee in English. An exclamation of playful exuberance. Yes, in French. But mostly 'all of us', as in this forum.

[Mojouw]

Define "We"...

I think liberals like Bud Dupree because they are entitled whiners who just want things handed to them on snowflakes. Real Americans hate Dupree and love James Harrison because he represents hard work and determination. He also may be a bald eagle wearing a human disguise.

I think you have to check how you voted in the last three national elections, last 4 state primaries, and who your school board superintendent is - that should tell you if you are a fan of Dupree or not.

[teegre]

I think liberals like Bud Dupree because they are entitled whiners who just want things handed to them on snowflakes. Real Americans hate Dupree and love James Harrison because he represents hard work and determination. He also may be a bald eagle wearing a human disguise.

I think you have to check how you voted in the last three national elections, last 4 state primaries, and who your school board superintendent is - that should tell you if you are a fan of Dupree or not.

Those who voted for Roy Moore prefer Millie Bobby Brown...

[Psycho Ward 86]

I still think Dupree will become a pretty good pass rusher when healthy, just not this season. But Dupree just posted 0's across the stat box today and said the defense gave up plays by going for the team sack record instead of playing assignments. That 2nd part is especially disconcerting

[teegre]

I still think Dupree will become a pretty good pass rusher when healthy, just not this season. But Dupree just posted 0's across the stat box today and said the defense gave up plays by going for the team sack record instead of playing assignments. That 2nd part is especially disconcerting

Bud was covering Njoku quite a bit, as well as shifting out to cover the RBs (who lined up as receivers).

0’s do indeed suck, but Dupree wasn’t as invisible as the stats would suggest.

[tube517]

Alvin whiffed on one possible sack so was that a Dong Whiff? Missed Dong? WorilDong Wrong?

[Shoes]

I'd consider moving Dupree inside and draft a pass rusher.

[Born2Steel]

I'd consider moving Dupree inside and draft a pass rusher.

I'd consider moving to a 4-3 hybrid with our dline putting most of the QB pressures anyway. Keep VW at Mike, move Bud to Sam, and let Watt handle the Will spot. Unless Shaz comes back, then VW goes to back him up.

[Edman]

Buddong Dupree.

The worst Steelers OLB since Jarvis Jones. Totally Terrible player.

[86WARD]

Buddong Dupree.

The worst Steelers OLB since Jarvis Jones. Totally Terrible player.

Dupree has some coverage skills. Jones, not so much. The OLBs assignments are a lot different this year compared to the past. So when people shit on Dupree...when some of it is warranted, a good amount of it isn’t. Sometimes he’s supposed to not show up on paper. If he’s covering his man as he’s supposed to, he’s not going to show up on a stat sheet if the QB isn’t throwing that way b/c he’s doing his job.

I’m not defending him, I’m just saying things are a little different assignment wise. It’s not so cut and dry.

[teegre]

Dupree has some coverage skills. Jones, not so much. The OLBs assignments are a lot different this year compared to the past. So when people shit on Dupree...when some of it is warranted, a good amount of it isn’t. Sometimes he’s supposed to not show up on paper. If he’s covering his man as he’s supposed to, he’s not going to show up on a stat sheet if the QB isn’t throwing that way b/c he’s doing his job.

I’m not defending him, I’m just saying things are a little different assignment wise. It’s not so cut and dry.

Nailed it.

As a pass-rusher, Dupree HAS to develop a counter move, because otherwise OTs will continue to run him upfield/out of the play. Chuck Smith swears that Dupree has indeed developed said counter move, but we have not yet seen it (maybe because of Dupree’s bad shoulder???).

Regardless of that, the TEs (outside of Gronk) have not killed us this year... and, for the most part, that is due to Dupree.

[Mojouw]

Here is some interesting stuff -- http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

This second table lists each team's Adjusted Line Yards in each direction listed in official NFL play-by-play, along with rank among the 32 teams. Only five directions are listed because research so far shows no statistically significant difference between how well a team performs on runs listed middle, left guard, and right guard. These runs are from the perspective of the OFFENSE, so a run listed as LEFT TACKLE is actually at the RIGHT defensive end.





LEFT END
LEFT TACKLE
MID/GUARD
RIGHT TACKLE
RIGHT END



TEAM
ALY
Rank
ALY
Rank
ALY
Rank
ALY
Rank
ALY
Rank


1
PHI
2.44
2
2.82
4
3.04
1
3.24
10
3.28
10


2
CLE
3.05
4
3.14
7
3.49
2
3.04
7
2.07
3


3
ARI
3.72
14
2.61
3
3.81
8
2.76
3
2.38
4


4
DEN
3.19
9
3.30
10
3.54
3
1.90
1
3.92
16


5
CAR
2.77
3
2.36
2
3.93
10
4.15
21
3.31
11


6
NYJ
3.62
13
3.99
16
4.11
15
2.87
5
3.19
8


7
BAL
1.07
1
4.50
25
3.80
6
4.22
23
4.36
21


8
HOU
3.08
6
3.05
5
3.80
7
3.85
18
6.04
32


9
GB
3.42
12
5.02
28
4.62
29
3.41
12
1.53
2


10
MIA
4.85
27
4.69
27
3.61
4
3.23
9
5.88
31


11

DAL
3.12
8
4.01
17
3.99
11
4.73
29
3.90
15


12

PIT

6.27

32
4.25
22
3.82
9
3.28

11

4.02
18



13
MIN
3.88
18
2.32
1
4.35
21
4.40
26
3.36
12



14
TEN
3.11
7
5.21
31
4.37
24
3.47
14
0.48
1


15
NO
4.43
22
3.63
12
4.30
18
2.98
6
4.62
25


16
SF
4.96
28
3.59
11
4.31
19
3.84
17
2.68
5





If I am reading all this correctly (which is never a given) then the Steelers are far worse per carry to Watt's side than Dupree's side? Interesting stat if I have that right.

Also, it is possible that we are looking at an Artie Burns factor here also? Doesn't he usually play behind Watt? IF you look at all the stats in the linked article, it is pretty clear that the 2017 Steelers do not field a good run defense and it seems like tackling at the DB level is one of the primary problems.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Here is some interesting stuff -- http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

This second table lists each team's Adjusted Line Yards in each direction listed in official NFL play-by-play, along with rank among the 32 teams. Only five directions are listed because research so far shows no statistically significant difference between how well a team performs on runs listed middle, left guard, and right guard. These runs are from the perspective of the OFFENSE, so a run listed as LEFT TACKLE is actually at the RIGHT defensive end.

If I am reading all this correctly (which is never a given) then the Steelers are far worse per carry to Watt's side than Dupree's side? Interesting stat if I have that right.

Also, it is possible that we are looking at an Artie Burns factor here also? Doesn't he usually play behind Watt? IF you look at all the stats in the linked article, it is pretty clear that the 2017 Steelers do not field a good run defense and it seems like tackling at the DB level is one of the primary problems.

I think that you're reading it correctly and I also agree that Burns and Mitchell most likely factor in to that.

[Mojouw]

I think that you're reading it correctly and I also agree that Burns and Mitchell most likely factor in to that.

OK. Here are the #'s from last season:





LEFT END
LEFT TACKLE
MID/GUARD
RIGHT TACKLE
RIGHT END




14

PIT

5.37
29
2.65
2
4.18
16
4.64
23
2.34
3




And 2015


6
PIT
2.78
8
2.94
5
3.78
13
4.24
25
3.42
18




Taking all this together and I see that Dupree is an improvement on his side and Watt is a downgrade on his side. But the real culprit seems to be at the edges (the runs outside the ends) so that means the switch to man coverage capable DBs has led to a bunch of dudes who don't tackle as well as the old model zone coverage Steelers corners?

I don't know, but the absence of James Harrison does not seem to be ONLY factor in a less imposing rush defense. Additionally, it does not seem that Bud Dupree is the total crap-fest against the run that some make him out to be.

SO, like everything, the truth is far more complicated than the easy answers that internet arguments like to boil things down to.

[tube517]

OK. Here are the #'s from last season:





LEFT END
LEFT TACKLE
MID/GUARD
RIGHT TACKLE
RIGHT END




14

PIT

5.37
29
2.65
2
4.18
16
4.64
23
2.34
3




And 2015


6
PIT
2.78
8
2.94
5
3.78
13
4.24
25
3.42
18




Taking all this together and I see that Dupree is an improvement on his side and Watt is a downgrade on his side. But the real culprit seems to be at the edges (the runs outside the ends) so that means the switch to man coverage capable DBs has led to a bunch of dudes who don't tackle as well as the old model zone coverage Steelers corners?

I don't know, but the absence of James Harrison does not seem to be ONLY factor in a less imposing rush defense. Additionally, it does not seem that Bud Dupree is the total crap-fest against the run that some make him out to be.

SO, like everything, the truth is far more complicated than the easy answers that internet arguments like to boil things down to.

Fire Peazy, Olsavsky and John Mitchell.

[Hawkman]

Yeah, but should at least get a Watt-wall-de-dong sack.

:nono::humble::banplease::noidea::plane::thumbsup:

- - - Updated - - -

Jason Day won at Torrey Pines!!! I know...time to get my ass banned