I Will Say It Artie Burns Sux!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Sadly think he reached his potential and sux!

[Craic]

Nope. The problem is that Mike Mitchell isn't playing and Golden is getting exposed. Several of those throws should have been broken up by the over-the-top safety. Maybe after tonight Mitchell will start getting a little more respect.

[smokin3000gt]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/45/4549172ef1a1fa330d0df323f9d19cb11786804d5474f28597 18d0f7e1c4f34b.jpg

[Bluecoat96]

Overreact much?

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

[polamalubeast]

Terrible thread.

[86WARD]

He had a few bad plays in the first half but he settled down. How about that Sensabaugh tho...looks like a good signing there...

[43Hitman]

Nope. The problem is that Mike Mitchell isn't playing and Golden is getting exposed. Several of those throws should have been broken up by the over-the-top safety. Maybe after tonight Mitchell will start getting a little more respect.
Nailed it. I thought they rose to the occasion when they could have easily wilted, like some unnamed fans.

[tube517]

http://memecrunch.com/meme/PW4Z/yo-dawg-i-hear-you-over-react/image.jpg

[Hawkman]

Sadly think he reached his potential and sux!

Maybe you have too!!

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

He had some poor play, like not being able to cover Delanie Walker in the end zone (that isn't on Robert Golden, Mike Mitchell, or anybody), but luckily Walker dropped the ball. But he jumped the in route and was there to break up the pass that ended up with Golden intercepting.

He doesn't suck, he just has a limited coverage skill unless it involves driving on a ball that is thrown in front of him, or something that is a straight "9" up the sideline where he just has to turn and run with the receiver. Burns doesn't use a backpedal and I don't think he has a great change of direction that would allow him to play man well with double moves or inside receivers.

I just find it amusing that there are so many Artie Burns bandwagoners that ignore his current limitations and deflect or ignore his bad plays. He got beat on a bad double move last week, but if William Gay did that, fans would call for his release. This week he leaves Walker to drop a TD catch, but again if that was somebody else, they would be putting him on the same bus out of town as Danny Smith. Bottom line, is Burns is still inconsistent and doesn't have the current skill to be anything but a system CB, but he fits the system the Steelers currently run.

[Count Steeler]

I think he is fine on his development curve. Still a lot of upside to come from Artie.

[st33lersguy]

He's 22 years old and still raw. Not realistic to expect rod woodson so early

[Iron Steeler]

he diea get caught napping like twice a game. The jackson kis on yhe titans looked way better then him.

[Born2Steel]

I don't know that he "SUX". He has shown some ability to start for a long time, and shown some bone head play that could get a benching. I'm not an 'all or none' guy when it comes to players, so Burns is who Burns is. Which is still better than what we had before him. Big picture thinking says he's good, with a lot of upside. Small picture thinking says he's no Deion Sanders right out of the draft and a bust. Be a big picture guy.

[DesertSteel]

I think he is fine on his development curve. Still a lot of upside to come from Artie.
^ This

[steelreserve]

You want to see a cornerback who sucks, watch a replay of the Denver game two years ago with Antwon Blake. THAT'S how you suck.

Burns has a bad play every once in a while, but so far has been light years better than most of the clowns we've run out there the past several seasons.

[Mojouw]

he diea get caught napping like twice a game. The jackson kis on yhe titans looked way better then him.

Yup. Jackson looks like the real deal. Burns looks like someone who could become the real deal.

Not surprising considering how raw Burns was coming out.

[Steeldude]

Sucks? No. Overrated by many fans on here? Yes.

He is an average CB. IMO, he won't be anything more than average.

I am still trying to figure out why being 22 years old is used as an excuse for screwing up?

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Sucks? No. Overrated by many fans on here? Yes.

He is an average CB. IMO, he won't be anything more than average.

I am still trying to figure out why being 22 years old is used as an excuse for screwing up?

I agree with this, although I think he has the ability to be better than average, but I don't see him learning much in the way of technique that he could be so far.

I agree that he gets slobbered all over for being so great that he covers AB in practice, but then when he stands flat footed on a double move, or leaves a WR in the corner of the end zone alone, trails behind a TE 2 yards in the end zone or tackles like a Matador......"he is raw, young and still improving". :doh:

[Rotorhead]

Wow, you guys are getting ridiculous. Do you think we can get top 5 players at every position? Burns is better than average, and he is still learning and getting better. Remember he is also playing against WR's that are some of the top in the game. He is not going to win every battle, and if we had more than 1 good safety it would be fine. Ike got beat too, but he had Clark back there to help. I think Golden and Mitchell are the ones we need to upgrade. And I don't think everyone was slobbering over him because he was covering AB, they were slobbering over him because he wanted to get better, and learn to be better by trying to cover the best in the league.

[teegre]

Wow, you guys are getting ridiculous. Do you think we can get top 5 players at every position? Burns is better than average, and he is still learning and getting better. Remember he is also playing against WR's that are some of the top in the game. He is not going to win every battle, and if we had more than 1 good safety it would be fine. Ike got beat too, but he had Clark back there to help. I think Golden and Mitchell are the ones we need to upgrade. And I don't think everyone was slobbering over him because he was covering AB, they were slobbering over him because he wanted to get better, and learn to be better by trying to cover the best in the league.

QFT

[SteelMember]

when he stands flat footed on a double move, or leaves a WR in the corner of the end zone alone, trails behind a TE 2 yards in the end zone or tackles like a Matador....

Artie Burned... O le :chuckle:

So, is Wilcox that far behind the curve? Earlier in the year, he seemed to be making some good plays on the ball. I mean, we already know what we have in Golden. Is Wilcox that much more of a liability? Idk

[lipps83]

Wow, you guys are getting ridiculous. Do you think we can get top 5 players at every position? Burns is better than average, and he is still learning and getting better. Remember he is also playing against WR's that are some of the top in the game. He is not going to win every battle, and if we had more than 1 good safety it would be fine. Ike got beat too, but he had Clark back there to help. I think Golden and Mitchell are the ones we need to upgrade. And I don't think everyone was slobbering over him because he was covering AB, they were slobbering over him because he wanted to get better, and learn to be better by trying to cover the best in the league.

Get out of here with your reality. This is fantasyland only.

[Steeldude]

I agree with this, although I think he has the ability to be better than average, but I don't see him learning much in the way of technique that he could be so far.

I agree that he gets slobbered all over for being so great that he covers AB in practice, but then when he stands flat footed on a double move, or leaves a WR in the corner of the end zone alone, trails behind a TE 2 yards in the end zone or tackles like a Matador......"he is raw, young and still improving". :doh:

I think he has the ability do a lot better also. I think his problem is mental. He needs to get focused. He either wants it or he is just along for the ride.

If they could just put a little of Heath Miller's DNA in him. Haha

[Craic]

I think he is fine on his development curve. Still a lot of upside to come from Artie.

This. It's not the Artie Burns bandwagon. It's the Artie Burns "watch the year-to-year development and keep realistic expectations" observations. And the reason being 22 makes a difference is because experience is very important in this league. It's why so many players can continue playing after the peak of their physical skills—they now have the experience and maturity to understand how the play will develop and can adjust in time to make up for the loss of step. It's when they lose that second step that we start to really see it and talk about them "losing a step or two."

[Mojouw]

Sucks? No. Overrated by many fans on here? Yes.

He is an average CB. IMO, he won't be anything more than average.

I am still trying to figure out why being 22 years old is used as an excuse for screwing up?

Its not an excuse for screwing up and you are smart enough to know that.

His age is not the point in the least. It is about the # of snaps and reps conducted as a full-time high-level football player.

For his entire HS career he was a football and track guy. Same thing at Miami. So that means no spring practices, drills, and scrimmages. It means far less reps and position specific coaching than comparable players in other major NCAA programs that only play football.

2017 was Burns' only year as a full-time football player.

Now, the pessimists and grumps on here look at Burns see the 1st round draft cost and ONLY acknowledge the mental mistakes, technique issues, and lack of physicality. That's fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Others of us choose (again - only an opinion) to look at Burns and see a young, raw, still developing player who has some serious holes in his game but projects to be Ike Taylor - tacking + catching INTS = borderline Pro Bowl CB.

Ike Taylor was a similarly raw CB prospect coming out of school and he didn't play a full slate of games until his 3rd year. Burns started and played average at worst in his rookie year. Now, Burns was more developed coming out of school than Taylor, but that the point holds.

Here is the list of CBs drafted between 2015-2017 (http://pfref.com/tiny/yilZw). There are about maybe a half dozen guys on there that I know are better than Burns and would've loved to see in a Steelers uniform (Peters, Ramsey, A. Jackson, Lattimore). All of them were drafted before the Steelers' pick in their draft year.

Burns is leaps and bounds better than any CB this team has suited up since Taylor hung 'em up. That's enough for me to be optimistic about his future development. Remember, even Rod Woodson didn't start a full season of games until his second year and didn't become the all-time destroyer of offenses until his 3rd year. Is Burns even in that same ball-park? Absolutely not - but I refuse to understand why anyone can look at a woefully inexperienced player in his second NFL season and say "Well, yup. That's his ceiling. No way he gets better. Next!"

If Burns is a motivated worker and smart enough to take coaching -- he can be Ike Taylor+. Is Burns that guy? Or is he a knucklehead? I have no idea. I don't know anything about him. Time will tell.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Wow, you guys are getting ridiculous. Do you think we can get top 5 players at every position? Burns is better than average, and he is still learning and getting better. Remember he is also playing against WR's that are some of the top in the game. He is not going to win every battle, and if we had more than 1 good safety it would be fine. Ike got beat too, but he had Clark back there to help. I think Golden and Mitchell are the ones we need to upgrade. And I don't think everyone was slobbering over him because he was covering AB, they were slobbering over him because he wanted to get better, and learn to be better by trying to cover the best in the league.

So it appears you are saying that peoples opinions of Burns greatness is more based upon the hope (they want him to get better) rather than reality (that he makes a lot of mistakes in coverage and is not a willing tackler)?

I'm just confused that when other CB's on the Steelers rosters over the years get beat, or fail to tackle that they would get crucified in forums like this, but not Burns. Its an interesting range of opinions why DeWayne Washington, Chad Scott, or William Gay would be called out for mistakes, but Burns hasn't yet proved to be the pro any of those guys were and gets a pass on poor play. Maybe its the name or his back story? :noidea:

Again, I don't think he sucks or has reached his ceiling, I just prefer to call him what he is and in my opinion its athletic, inconsistent, with poor technique and averse to supporting the run game.

[FrancoLambert]

No, he doesn't sux.

For the proper perspective, recall Antwon Blake and Ross Cockrell.

Burns is athletic, talented and very raw. Sure he has poor technique, peeks into the backfield too much and gets burned and tackles like a matador

But, I'm going to live with his shortcomings because I do believe with coaching, dedication, and hard work, he'll improve in those areas.

Antwon Blake and Ross Cockrell.....Antwon Blake and Ross Cockrell.

[st33lersguy]

No, he doesn't sux.

For the proper perspective, recall Antwon Blake and Ross Cockrell.

Burns is athletic, talented and very raw. Sure he has poor technique, peeks into the backfield too much and gets burned and tackles like a matador

But, I'm going to live with his shortcomings because I do believe with coaching, dedication, and hard work, he'll improve in those areas.

Antwon Blake and Ross Cockrell.....Antwon Blake and Ross Cockrell.

Artie Burns at his worst is still Rod Woodson in comparison to Antwon Burnt. I still have no idea how the hell he was allowed to start for all of 2015

[SteelerFanInStl]

Yes, he's better than what we had. No question about that. I like his potential but I'm not seeing the growth that I expected this year out of him. I still have hope though.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Yes, he's better than what we had. No question about that. I like his potential but I'm not seeing the growth that I expected this year out of him. I still have hope though. Yep my point and see no improvement whatsoever from him after last year. I know he is young and has time to improve but we should see signs of it and there not there. Yes he is better then what we had and was a desperate pick and sometimes you have to make desperate picks. He is a average CB and honestly don't expect much more out of him. I'm wrong he doesn't sux and is average.

[teegre]

Its not an excuse for screwing up and you are smart enough to know that.

His age is not the point in the least. It is about the # of snaps and reps conducted as a full-time high-level football player.

For his entire HS career he was a football and track guy. Same thing at Miami. So that means no spring practices, drills, and scrimmages. It means far less reps and position specific coaching than comparable players in other major NCAA programs that only play football.

2017 was Burns' only year as a full-time football player.

Now, the pessimists and grumps on here look at Burns see the 1st round draft cost and ONLY acknowledge the mental mistakes, technique issues, and lack of physicality. That's fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Others of us choose (again - only an opinion) to look at Burns and see a young, raw, still developing player who has some serious holes in his game but projects to be Ike Taylor - tacking + catching INTS = borderline Pro Bowl CB.

Ike Taylor was a similarly raw CB prospect coming out of school and he didn't play a full slate of games until his 3rd year. Burns started and played average at worst in his rookie year. Now, Burns was more developed coming out of school than Taylor, but that the point holds.

Here is the list of CBs drafted between 2015-2017 (http://pfref.com/tiny/yilZw). There are about maybe a half dozen guys on there that I know are better than Burns and would've loved to see in a Steelers uniform (Peters, Ramsey, A. Jackson, Lattimore). All of them were drafted before the Steelers' pick in their draft year.

Burns is leaps and bounds better than any CB this team has suited up since Taylor hung 'em up. That's enough for me to be optimistic about his future development. Remember, even Rod Woodson didn't start a full season of games until his second year and didn't become the all-time destroyer of offenses until his 3rd year. Is Burns even in that same ball-park? Absolutely not - but I refuse to understand why anyone can look at a woefully inexperienced player in his second NFL season and say "Well, yup. That's his ceiling. No way he gets better. Next!"

If Burns is a motivated worker and smart enough to take coaching -- he can be Ike Taylor+. Is Burns that guy? Or is he a knucklehead? I have no idea. I don't know anything about him. Time will tell.

:nod:

As I have stated in all of the other “Burns sucks!!” threads, I recall a young linebacker who made some really big mistskes (e.g. knocking down a player on a kickoff and staring him down... while the returner ran right behind him). Then, that linebacker got better.

And, Yes, you could say that about almost any player... which is my point: players develop and get better. Because, not everyone is Marshon Lattimore/Randy Moss (great from day one); in fact, those two are the exception to the rule.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

If Artie didn't have his speed and his only attribute IMO, people would be cursing him like Blake.

[DesertSteel]

1-star thread

[Texasteel]

I don't pay much attention to this kind of talk. I remember people calling Troy and bust his first couple of years in the league. Just let the young man play, and learn and then see what we do or do not have.

How ever, since I was probably the first one on the Burns bandwagon my opinion may be a little tilted.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

1-star thread Thread served it's purpose and got a few replies from you. You have to give it two stars for that! :dance:

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Thread served it's purpose and got a few replies from you. You have to give it two stars for that! :dance:

Might get another star if Burns keeps letting guys run free up the sidelines for a 3rd week in a row. :doh:

[Rotorhead]

We can only blame 1 TD on Burns, the other was Mitchell taking a bad angle and missing the tackle. The one up the sideline, (as it looked to me anyway) was between the handoff of Burns and Mitchell, which Mitchell was late to and then took a bad angle and got beat.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

We can only blame 1 TD on Burns, the other was Mitchell taking a bad angle and missing the tackle. The one up the sideline, (as it looked to me anyway) was between the handoff of Burns and Mitchell, which Mitchell was late to and then took a bad angle and got beat.

Why would Mitchell be "late to" getting all the way to the sidelines when it looked like they were in Cover 3 and Burns has the sideline? Its on film in college and now in the NFL for Burns. He likes to try and jump routes in front of him to make INT's, and loses his responsibilities in coverage. OC's know if you give him a double move, or a combination route like last night where he can bite on the slant, he leaves his coverage assignment. Lets hope he learns this week and doesn't do it again.

[Mojouw]

We can only blame 1 TD on Burns, the other was Mitchell taking a bad angle and missing the tackle. The one up the sideline, (as it looked to me anyway) was between the handoff of Burns and Mitchell, which Mitchell was late to and then took a bad angle and got beat.

Wasn't that on Sensabaugh just straight getting beat?

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/11/film-room-breaking-burns-sensabaughs-breakdowns/

If it is that play, Sensabaugh just bit hard on the route by the WR and then wasn't able to recover. Mitchell doesn't make the best tackle, but that was Sensabaugh's guy all the way.

- - - Updated - - -


Why would Mitchell be "late to" getting all the way to the sidelines when it looked like they were in Cover 3 and Burns has the sideline? Its on film in college and now in the NFL for Burns. He likes to try and jump routes in front of him to make INT's, and loses his responsibilities in coverage. OC's know if you give him a double move, or a combination route like last night where he can bite on the slant, he leaves his coverage assignment. Lets hope he learns this week and doesn't do it again.

You all are talking about different plays. Burns gave up one TD because he is a moron. Shazier gave up one TD because he gambled and lost. Sensabaugh gave up one TD because Adams beat him like a drum.

[Hawkman]

Why would Mitchell be "late to" getting all the way to the sidelines when it looked like they were in Cover 3 and Burns has the sideline? Its on film in college and now in the NFL for Burns. He likes to try and jump routes in front of him to make INT's, and loses his responsibilities in coverage. OC's know if you give him a double move, or a combination route like last night where he can bite on the slant, he leaves his coverage assignment. Lets hope he learns this week and doesn't do it again.

I feel certain that will be a big emphasis this week, especially with A.J. On Monday.

[Iron Steeler]

He is not that good. It is clear we wanted the guy that went to the Bengals and they took him right before us.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Wasn't that on Sensabaugh just straight getting beat?

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/11/film-room-breaking-burns-sensabaughs-breakdowns/

If it is that play, Sensabaugh just bit hard on the route by the WR and then wasn't able to recover. Mitchell doesn't make the best tackle, but that was Sensabaugh's guy all the way.

- - - Updated - - -



You all are talking about different plays. Burns gave up one TD because he is a moron. Shazier gave up one TD because he gambled and lost. Sensabaugh gave up one TD because Adams beat him like a drum.

Yeah, I didn't get the Sensabaugh play of jumping the route on the move of the receiver, he didn't even look at the QB to bite on the weak pump fake. Kind of poor technique, in that he wasn't in any kind of decent backpedal or even a bail so he could look at the QB. Its why I appreciate how Haden plays so much more, as the small details like his technique allow him to be in so much better position than scrubs like Sensabaugh.

[Rotorhead]

As I said, as I saw it. Cody's guy, he was just beat. Burns, it looked to me he was supposed to have over the top help and Mitchell wasnt there in time and took a bad angle, but I could very well be wrong.

[Mojouw]

Yeah, I didn't get the Sensabaugh play of jumping the route on the move of the receiver, he didn't even look at the QB to bite on the weak pump fake. Kind of poor technique, in that he wasn't in any kind of decent backpedal or even a bail so he could look at the QB. Its why I appreciate how Haden plays so much more, as the small details like his technique allow him to be in so much better position than scrubs like Sensabaugh.

I really have no idea what Sensabaugh was doing other than thinking that the ball was coming out quick. It was just a bad play.

I still do not totally understand why Sensabaugh was the guy that was kept over Cockrell. I know that he looked bad in preseason, but 2016 Cockrell seems to be a superior player to 2017 Sensabaugh. Maybe, I'm just being grumpy?

[SteelerFanInStl]

I really have no idea what Sensabaugh was doing other than thinking that the ball was coming out quick. It was just a bad play.

I still do not totally understand why Sensabaugh was the guy that was kept over Cockrell. I know that he looked bad in preseason, but 2016 Cockrell seems to be a superior player to 2017 Sensabaugh. Maybe, I'm just being grumpy?

Sensabaugh is terrible. I hated the signing in the offseason. I didn't think that he'd even make the team and now he's starting.

[SteelMember]

As I said, as I saw it. Cody's guy, he was just beat. Burns, it looked to me he was supposed to have over the top help and Mitchell wasnt there in time and took a bad angle, but I could very well be wrong.

Pretty sure Burns was supposed to have the deep boundary and followed the post route instead... which would have been Mitchell's guy. They were both almost in the same spot on the field when they turned to pursue... Burns then fell down tripping over Mike. =(

Watt was covering him short boundary but released him with the RB coming over into that area. So, that's Burns leaving his assignment, imo.

[Mojouw]

Sensabaugh is terrible. I hated the signing in the offseason. I didn't think that he'd even make the team and now he's starting.

I like the signing for depth when Cockrell was still the starter, Golson was injured, Hilton was an unknown, and Haden was still a Brown.

Based on everything that happened after that...I understand why it happened. The Giants were not trading for a guy they had just cut. Doesn't mean I have to agree with it or like it!

[SteelMember]

I really have no idea what Sensabaugh was doing other than thinking that the ball was coming out quick. It was just a bad play.

I still do not totally understand why Sensabaugh was the guy that was kept over Cockrell. I know that he looked bad in preseason, but 2016 Cockrell seems to be a superior player to 2017 Sensabaugh. Maybe, I'm just being grumpy?

Indeed. Since it was 3rd and short, he was probably looking for the short pass... the quick stop and go with the little shoulder fake by the QB... he guessed badly.

[Craic]

There's a reason people talk about the Sophomore slump. I'm willing to wait it out before condemning Burns. That doesn't change the fact that he has caused some problems in the secondary this year. He definitely needs to learn how to tackle and extend through the hit.

[Neversatisfied]

Sucks is a bit harsh however he is not 1st round worthy. The Steelers were in desperate need of a corner and took Burns. Burns will be serviceable (not someone I would wanna see on someone's #1 reciever) but he needs time to progress, he was a reach when the Steelers took him in the 1st round and he spent have 1st round talent so naturally there are high expectations for the guy

[Rotorhead]

Pretty sure Burns was supposed to have the deep boundary and followed the post route instead... which would have been Mitchell's guy. They were both almost in the same spot on the field when they turned to pursue... Burns then fell down tripping over Mike. =(

Watt was covering him short boundary but released him with the RB coming over into that area. So, that's Burns leaving his assignment, imo.

That makes sense, thanks for the explanation. Well, we are going to have to get those little things cleaned up before the Pats, they are probably the best at exploiting mixed up assignments. I don't mind us starting to work out the bugs of M2M coverages before the Pats so as long as this is a lesson learned. Better now then in week 15.

[Mojouw]

I seriously fail to understand why this conversation keeps happening. Burns has no new pros and no new cons.

Here are ALL the CBs drafted from like ever (http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?position=CB&type=position). Start looking at guys you would rather have from say 2014 on or so. The list doesn't get very big.

2014 - Gilbert, Fuller, and Dennard were the supposed prizes of that class. Out of the league, not very good, and not very good.
2015 - Waynes, Johnson, Peters, and Byron Jones are the big 1st round guys here. Peters is the one that stands out here.
2016 - Ramsey, Hargreaves, Apple, WJII, Alexander and Burns. I would rather have Ramsey, but for the rest? Not sure Burns isn't playing as well or better than those dudes.
2017 - jury is still out. Lattimore and Jackson look significantly better than Burns. Maybe Tre White?

I'm not certain what the standard of evaluation is here. If I'm running a team and I spend a 1st round pick on a guy and he then proceeds to start 20 of his first 27 career games, provide the team with above average play at a position that was previously a waste-land - well I'm largely pleased. Or at least more pleased than pissed.

Does Burns have problems? Absolutely. He still doesn't really understand zone or zone man concepts all that well. He is a somewhat willing tackler, but he sucks at at, and he has not been as sticky fingered as promised. But the kid is 27 games into his career. I am not predicting great things for him (if he was going to be a dominant play-maker we should have seen flashes by now) but the whole "bust" and "sux" stuff is not supported by realistic comparisons to similar players.

[teegre]

I bought low on Burns... about 500 shares.

In a few years, I'll be a millionaire.

[SteelMember]

I seriously fail to understand why this conversation keeps happening. Burns has no new pros and no new cons.

Here are ALL the CBs drafted from like ever (http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?position=CB&type=position). Start looking at guys you would rather have from say 2014 on or so. The list doesn't get very big.

2014 - Gilbert, Fuller, and Dennard were the supposed prizes of that class. Out of the league, not very good, and not very good.
2015 - Waynes, Johnson, Peters, and Byron Jones are the big 1st round guys here. Peters is the one that stands out here.
2016 - Ramsey, Hargreaves, Apple, WJII, Alexander and Burns. I would rather have Ramsey, but for the rest? Not sure Burns isn't playing as well or better than those dudes.
2017 - jury is still out. Lattimore and Jackson look significantly better than Burns. Maybe Tre White?

I'm not certain what the standard of evaluation is here. If I'm running a team and I spend a 1st round pick on a guy and he then proceeds to start 20 of his first 27 career games, provide the team with above average play at a position that was previously a waste-land - well I'm largely pleased. Or at least more pleased than pissed.

Does Burns have problems? Absolutely. He still doesn't really understand zone or zone man concepts all that well. He is a somewhat willing tackler, but he sucks at at, and he has not been as sticky fingered as promised. But the kid is 27 games into his career. I am not predicting great things for him (if he was going to be a dominant play-maker we should have seen flashes by now) but the whole "bust" and "sux" stuff is not supported by realistic comparisons to similar players.

I don't think anyone brought up "sux" until Coty's name was brought into the discussion. :scratchchin:

It is a bumped thread from over a week ago... thanks, Gonzo. :chuckle:

[Hawkman]

I don't think anyone brought up "sux" until Coty's name was brought into the discussion. :scratchchin:

:

You mean, outside of the title of the thread.:heh:

[SteelMember]

You mean, outside of the title of the thread.:heh:

Yeah... 'cause it's an old thread that was bumped for some bad play. Besides, Mojo was already a few posts in today before this last one. Just threw me off I guess. :noidea:

[43Hitman]

The play that Burns and Mitchell ended up in the same place was designed to beat cover 3 which is what we were in. Burns was supposed to cover his deep third of the field, the Packers exploited that coverage to make Burns think he needed to follow his guy. Will Allen was talking about it today and said that Green Bay just did a great job of beating our Cover 3. Burns still has to do better, but hey the other team gets paid too.

[ALLD]

Burns is going to be competing against a new draft pick next year. Steelers will also be shopping for S.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I really have no idea what Sensabaugh was doing other than thinking that the ball was coming out quick. It was just a bad play.

I still do not totally understand why Sensabaugh was the guy that was kept over Cockrell. I know that he looked bad in preseason, but 2016 Cockrell seems to be a superior player to 2017 Sensabaugh. Maybe, I'm just being grumpy?

I think they felt Cockrell had some trade value and they got something for him from the Giants. I agree that Sensabaugh did look terrible in the preseason and felt he wasn't as good as Cockrell, but I think the Steelers thought was he would be the #5 CB anyway and is under contract for 2 years, so why not keep him as depth.

I mentioned earlier when Haden went down....do they put Hilton on the boundary and let Gay play the slot, or start Sensabaugh out there. I guess we kno

[Steeldude]

He's 22 years old and still raw. Not realistic to expect rod woodson so early

Haha. Is 22 the new 12?

No one expects him to be Woodson at any point. I don't expect him to be as good as Townsend either, but Burns' play is below where it should be.

[SteelerFanInStl]

I mentioned earlier when Haden went down....do they put Hilton on the boundary and let Gay play the slot, or start Sensabaugh out there. I guess we kno

I'd rather see what Hilton can do than keep putting Sensabaugh out there. Hopefully Sutton will be ready to get some reps this week also.

[Mojouw]

Burns is going to be competing against a new draft pick next year. Steelers will also be shopping for S.


Haha. Is 22 the new 12?

No one expects him to be Woodson at any point. I don't expect him to be as good as Townsend either, but Burns' play is below where it should be.

This is why I was bringing it back up. What are the comps that people are using to establish this conclusion?

Look at recent draft picks. Byron Jones had to get switched to safety. Quinten Rollins can't get on the field for a depleted Packers team. Darby is playing excellent. Peters is lights out. Ramsey is amazing. Kevin Johnson is pretty good, but is a constant IR guy. Hargreaves is slowly turning into a pumpkin. Of the rest, it is a struggle to find guys playing better than Burns.

Heck, Burns stands out when compared to guys that were actually available when the Steelers drafted in a given year. Almost all of the guys that play better than him were never possible Steelers draft selections.

He is exactly what his draft scouting said he was. A guy that can run with the best WRs in single coverage. A guy that will struggle with zone concepts because he is raw (and it may be that he is as dumb as a bag of hammers) and a player that will have constant issues with tackling.

But competing with a draft pick? Worse than Townsend?

Do people watch other teams? Or is this just evaluating the Steelers against arbitrary standards?

This is the Packers prized rookie - http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/12235/kevin-king -- he got roasted last night.
This was one of the Bengals prized secondary selections - http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/9435/darqueze-dennard
The other CB can't seem to crack the immortal rotation of Pacman Jones and Dre Kirkpatrick.
Remember when the Steelers got robbed because Kyle Fuller went off the board before they could pick? Yeah, I'll take Shazier.

As almost everyone acknowledges Burns is flawed but he has less flaws than 8 out of 10 other options.

EDIT: This is not an attempt to convince anyone about right and wrong. It is just an attempt to understand what the system of evaluation is.

[Born2Steel]

This is why I was bringing it back up. What are the comps that people are using to establish this conclusion?

Look at recent draft picks. Byron Jones had to get switched to safety. Quinten Rollins can't get on the field for a depleted Packers team. Darby is playing excellent. Peters is lights out. Ramsey is amazing. Kevin Johnson is pretty good, but is a constant IR guy. Hargreaves is slowly turning into a pumpkin. Of the rest, it is a struggle to find guys playing better than Burns.

Heck, Burns stands out when compared to guys that were actually available when the Steelers drafted in a given year. Almost all of the guys that play better than him were never possible Steelers draft selections.

He is exactly what his draft scouting said he was. A guy that can run with the best WRs in single coverage. A guy that will struggle with zone concepts because he is raw (and it may be that he is as dumb as a bag of hammers) and a player that will have constant issues with tackling.

But competing with a draft pick? Worse than Townsend?

Do people watch other teams? Or is this just evaluating the Steelers against arbitrary standards?

This is the Packers prized rookie - http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/12235/kevin-king -- he got roasted last night.
This was one of the Bengals prized secondary selections - http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/9435/darqueze-dennard
The other CB can't seem to crack the immortal rotation of Pacman Jones and Dre Kirkpatrick.
Remember when the Steelers got robbed because Kyle Fuller went off the board before they could pick? Yeah, I'll take Shazier.

As almost everyone acknowledges Burns is flawed but he has less flaws than 8 out of 10 other options.

EDIT: This is not an attempt to convince anyone about right and wrong. It is just an attempt to understand what the system of evaluation is.

Most of the time when I see descriptions of players it comes across as "Sucks, is terrible, a bust, just doesn't have it", or the exact opposite extreme, "Pro bowler, all star, HoF, next Jerry Rice(INSERT NAME)". Reality is, the NFL is full of players that play well. Many are not the complete package but do something very well. Burns is a man-man cover corner, you know, exactly what we needed because "you can't beat the other team playing a zone defense". So we drafted Burns, arguably, the best cover CB in that draft. Now we see he has zone liability so he must suck. I just don't get it.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I think they felt Cockrell had some trade value and they got something for him from the Giants. I agree that Sensabaugh did look terrible in the preseason and felt he wasn't as good as Cockrell, but I think the Steelers thought was he would be the #5 CB anyway and is under contract for 2 years, so why not keep him as depth.

I mentioned earlier when Haden went down....do they put Hilton on the boundary and let Gay play the slot, or start Sensabaugh out there. I guess we kno

Hilton has been a homewrecker against the screen game, perimeter runs, and as a blitzer from the slot. He was born to excel there and I think we lose too much if we move him. Plus with Gay we know what were getting from any spot so if anyone is deserving of consideration for higher snaps it would be Gay. Hopefully Haden is back by Week 15 because its going to get ugly if he's not

[teegre]

Haha. Is 22 the new 12?

No one expects him to be Woodson at any point. I don't expect him to be as good as Townsend either, but Burns' play is below where it should be.

The bolded part we all agree on.

What I do not understand is the notion that a player is as good as he’ll ever be (at 22) and won’t improve. Almost every player improves for their first four(-to-six) seasons. As I’ve mentioned before, Janes Harrison at 24 was nowhere near the player he was at 29.

[86WARD]

Burns’ play has declined over the last couple weeks. Mainly because Haden is out. He’s young, he’s still learning, he was fine last year, he was fine at the beginning of this year, hopefully he’ll be back when Haden returns...

[Mojouw]

I don't think I am thinking all that well tonight. I don't see how Haden's injury explains Burns' lack of assignment execution?

The Steelers don't move their CBs around, so Burns is still on his side and not "following" a guy. He is playing next to the same safeties. Unless folks are arguing that Burns is being put into different coverages because the entire secondary shifts assignments to cover up Haden's loss?

I mean Sensabaugh's big plays against I get being a direct result of Haden going out but Burns has just been going "brain-cramp" at the wrong times.

[Craic]

I don't think I am thinking all that well tonight. I don't see how Haden's injury explains Burns' lack of assignment execution?

The Steelers don't move their CBs around, so Burns is still on his side and not "following" a guy. He is playing next to the same safeties. Unless folks are arguing that Burns is being put into different coverages because the entire secondary shifts assignments to cover up Haden's loss?

I mean Sensabaugh's big plays against I get being a direct result of Haden going out but Burns has just been going "brain-cramp" at the wrong times.
Perhaps it is shifting more to help the corner on the other side. Or, perhaps, it's a little more zone with responsibilities put on Burns now more than before. Don't know, just hazarding a couple of guesses.

[Mojouw]

Perhaps it is shifting more to help the corner on the other side. Or, perhaps, it's a little more zone with responsibilities put on Burns now more than before. Don't know, just hazarding a couple of guesses.

I can see that. Burns is not good at complex zone stuff. With Haden out the team runs more of that stuff to cover up Sensabaugh and therefore Burns has more chances for error?

[Psycho Ward 86]

Burns is only playing out of his zone at times to go for the pick. If he plays assignment football, his play on this team will look "boring" but stabilized for the rest of the season

[teegre]

Burns is only playing out of his zone at times to go for the pick. If he plays assignment football, his play on this team will look "boring" but stabilized for the rest of the season

Winner!!!

As I mentioned elsewhere, Tomlin laid into Burns (at halftime), and Burns played better/smarter/vanilla defense (no peeking, no jumping routes... just sticking with his man) in the second half.

[Craic]

Burns is only playing out of his zone at times to go for the pick. If he plays assignment football, his play on this team will look "boring" but stabilized for the rest of the season


Winner!!!

As I mentioned elsewhere, Tomlin laid into Burns (at halftime), and Burns played better/smarter/vanilla defense (no peeking, no jumping routes... just sticking with his man) in the second half.

If this is true, then let's think about what we're really getting on this kid about. In short, he's trying too hard to make a play. While it's still frustrating, I'd much rather have that scenario than someone like Mike Adams or D. McCullers.

[teegre]

If this is true, then let's think about what we're really getting on this kid about. In short, he's trying too hard to make a play. While it's still frustrating, I'd much rather have that scenario than someone like Mike Adams or D. McCullers.

I’d say it’s been 80% Burns peeking and 20% Burns not understanding zone coverage.

But...

a) since he had a better second half, the prior is indeed correctable.

b) since every Steelers fan is screaming for more man coverage, that, too, is correctable (by having Burns play man coverage).

His tackling is still not great, but that tackle on Jordy Nelson was an improvement. Sure, Nelson stretched for the first down, but Nelson is a great player who made a great lunge. What is missed is that Burns made a rock-solid tackle (that would have led to a punt against a lesser receiver)... as opposed to his “Olé” tackling of week’s past. In a word: improvement.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Burns is only playing out of his zone at times to go for the pick. If he plays assignment football, his play on this team will look "boring" but stabilized for the rest of the season

Yes and he did that in college as well. He leaves his assignment to gamble for the pick and opposing OC's know that, as its on tape. IMO, the secret to playing great team football is to do your own job and trust that the guy next to you will do his job, but when you try to cover somebody else's assignment for personal glory, or not trusting them, then the mistakes happen and they get exploited.

If Burns stays up the sideline, maybe Hunley still throws it to Cobb and there is a chance for the INT. Doing your own job doesn't have to be "boring". Not doing your job should put your butt on the sideline and then that is "boring". When Burns learns his responsibilities and sticks to them, then he has a chance to be a consistently productive CB for this team.

[teegre]

Yes and he did that in college as well. He leaves his assignment to gamble for the pick and opposing OC's know that, as its on tape. IMO, the secret to playing great team football is to do your own job and trust that the guy next to you will do his job, but when you try to cover somebody else's assignment for personal glory, or not trusting them, then the mistakes happen and they get exploited.

If Burns stays up the sideline, maybe Hunley still throws it to Cobb and there is a chance for the INT. Doing your own job doesn't have to be "boring". Not doing your job should put your butt on the sideline and then that is "boring". When Burns learns his responsibilities and sticks to them, then he has a chance to be a consistently productive CB for this team.

Reminds me of Shazier last year...specifically the Dallas game.

Shazier was trying to do too much/trying to make every tackle... at the expense of his actual assignments. Now that Shazier has slowed down/playing his assignments, he’s much better.

Note: Watt has some of that in him, as well... but, I’d rather have a guy that you have to tell to “calm down” than a guy who has no hustle to begin with.

[86WARD]

Burns having a veteran and experienced Haden out there is also helpful mentally for Burns IMO. Burns, to me, also looks like he is trying too hard since Haden has been honed. Like he’s trying to make up for the loss by making a play.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Reminds me of Shazier last year...specifically the Dallas game.

Shazier was trying to do too much/trying to make every tackle... at the expense of his actual assignments. Now that Shazier has slowed down/playing his assignments, he’s much better.

Note: Watt has some of that in him, as well... but, I’d rather have a guy that you have to tell to “calm down” than a guy who has no hustle to begin with.

I agree with you. Easier to slow somebody down, rather than speed them up.

You make a Shazier comparison, but the difference IMO is that Shazier has always been "a real good football player" and a tackling machine in college. Burns is more of a good athlete, a track guy, that is trying to become a good football player. Doesn't seem to play with the head or heart of a football junkie. I like his work ethic and hope he keeps getting better, because cheating your assignments and lack of willingness to tackle wont make him great.

[teegre]

I agree with you. Easier to slow somebody down, rather than speed them up.

You make a Shazier comparison, but the difference IMO is that Shazier has always been "a real good football player" and a tackling machine in college. Burns is more of a good athlete, a track guy, that is trying to become a good football player. Doesn't seem to play with the head or heart of a football junkie. I like his work ethic and hope he keeps getting better, because cheating your assignments and lack of willingness to tackle wont make him great.

That tackle of Nelson was promising.

Burns has moved up from “matador” to “a gentleman opening the door”. Next up, “patty cake”. :lol:

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

I seen Burns leap to tackle a player after he already passed him to make it look good like he tried. What do I know and think he sux. I don't think he totally sux and he has speed that will help for his lack of talent. He needs to do what others on here said. Listen to your coaches.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Also he is a younger player and has plenty time to reach his potential. Why does he seem like he regress this year ? This too and when he does make a tackle like he should. He jumps around like King ShIt like he is the best ever! Not a fan but understand the pick. First time in many years seeing Pitt that desperate at a position and had to make the pick.

[Born2Steel]

I have always been a BPA guy for the 1st round, maybe first 2 rounds of the draft. When you pick for position, even if it's the BPA at that position left, you usually end up with a player that needs to be coached up. Not all guys can be coached up once they start cashing those first and second round paychecks. Burns is fine. He is GREAT as a man-man cover CB, not so great in zone coverage. Can he be coached up, remains to be seen. But I do like his potential. Almost EVERYTHING worthwhile in football depends on the 'long term'. Meaning as long as he continues to improve, we may have a franchise CB in this kid, in the long term.

[Mojouw]

Also he is a younger player and has plenty time to reach his potential. Why does he seem like he regress this year ? This too and when he does make a tackle like he should. He jumps around like King ShIt like he is the best ever! Not a fan but understand the pick. First time in many years seeing Pitt that desperate at a position and had to make the pick.

As for the celebrating stuff -- he went to the "U" - where they claim to have invented swagger. So...not really all that surprising. We don't have to like it, but Miami alums going to Miami.

As for the desperation pick -- I submit the following for evidence before the court:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Jarvis_Jones.jpg/250px-Jarvis_Jones.jpg

[SteelMember]

As for the desperation pick -- I submit the following for evidence before the court:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Jarvis_Jones.jpg/250px-Jarvis_Jones.jpg

I'm surprised Greg Lloyd never punched him in the face for embarrassing the legacy of his number... A truly legitimate candidate for a sux thread.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

That tackle of Nelson was promising.

Burns has moved up from “matador” to “a gentleman opening the door”. Next up, “patty cake”. :lol:

I agree, the Nelson tackle was a positive and I think because it wasn't head up, he finds it easier to shoot for the thigh-legs and tackle. The one where he met the WR in space and just stood in space and foot fired until the player went by him, was terrible hesitation. Collinsworth even pointed out that has been a problem for the defense. :doh:

Again, I hope he works on being more consistent and will throw his body at players feet at least in an attempt to tackle. The more I see of him, the more I think of how we used to call out the "track wimps" in highschool that came out to play football. Speed kills, but they didn't want to tackle or block. I look at Mike Hilton as an all around DB, that just isn't 6'0" and I look at Burns and think if he was 5'9" tall like Hilton, with his skill set, he would be selling shoes at Foot Locker.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

As for the celebrating stuff -- he went to the "U" - where they claim to have invented swagger. So...not really all that surprising. We don't have to like it, but Miami alums going to Miami.

As for the desperation pick -- I submit the following for evidence before the court:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Jarvis_Jones.jpg/250px-Jarvis_Jones.jpg Just to argue but not. Frank Gore was from the U and probably a HOF when his career is said and done. You don't see him doing that crazy Sh!t

[Mojouw]

Just to argue but not. Frank Gore was from the U and probably a HOF when his career is said and done. You don't see him doing that crazy Sh!t

Fair enough. You found the one guy from the "U" who isn't a bit loco!

I really don't care who celebrates what or doesn't celebrate what. As long as they make the play.