Film Room: The Good, Bad, And Ugly Of Bud Dupree

[Shoes]

The Pittsburgh Steelers’ bye week is letting us all catch our breath (and lower our blood pressure). And it’s also allowing us to take a deeper dive into certain players and review the first half of the season. Perhaps no one is under the microscope more than Bud Dupree. Entering the season with high expectations, by me maybe more than anyone else, has he lived up to them?
I looked at all of Dupree’s edge rushers this year, 124 in total. We’ll break them down, study the trends, and then look at the tape.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/11/film-room-good-bad-ugly-bud-dupree/

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

That is a nice series of vids. What stands out to me most is that Dupree seems to stab his hands at the chestplate, but doesn't then make much effort to knock the OT's hands off of him, with either a left hand slap or a rip of his right arm. The lack of hand fighting skill from Dupree is noticeable in those rushes. I would have hoped Coach Peezy would work on that more.

[steelreserve]

"Amazing raw talent, needs polish to be great at the pro level."

We had another guy like that, I forget his name so I'll just call him "Schmarvis Schmones."

Seems like this happens fairly often with edge rushers, not just on our team but in general. I think pretty often, guys like that succeed in college when they're a 270-pound guy with lots of power and speed, and they are going up against other 270-pound guys and it's simple to go right around/through them. Then they make it to the NFL and now they are up against a guy who is 6'6" and 320 pounds, and quick enough to stop you from blowing right past him. So your entire game is now reduced to getting into a shoving match with a guy 50 pounds heavier than you and with longer arms.

I guess a few of them learn how to overcome that, but for the most part I think unless you already know some tricks of the trade, it's going to be a tough road, which is why you see so many high-profile busts at the position. If you come into the league having gotten by on pure athleticism ... well, suddenly your athleticism doesn't matter because everyone else is 99% as strong and fast as you, and your odds of learning the "polish" are no better than any other rookie. And you're at a position where you're also now going to be at a major size disadvantage where you weren't before. Not a real high-percentage situation.

[43Hitman]

That is a nice series of vids. What stands out to me most is that Dupree seems to stab his hands at the chestplate, but doesn't then make much effort to knock the OT's hands off of him, with either a left hand slap or a rip of his right arm. The lack of hand fighting skill from Dupree is noticeable in those rushes. I would have hoped Coach Peezy would work on that more.
He needs some martial arts in the off-season in my opinion, his boxing training has helped, but his hands still need a lot of work.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

He needs some martial arts in the off-season in my opinion, his boxing training has helped, but his hands still need a lot of work.

Agreed. Good video here of UCLA back when Datone Jones was there and the martial arts training they used for hand work. IMO,hand fighting is essential in every D linemen technique. Been using it for decades in youth and highschool coaching, but the martial arts training is definitely the next step and I would think most college and pro teams would implement.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugI6QVob90c

[tube517]

Agreed. Good video here of UCLA back when Datone Jones was there and the martial arts training they used for hand work. IMO,hand fighting is essential in every D linemen technique. Been using it for decades in youth and highschool coaching, but the martial arts training is definitely the next step and I would think most college and pro teams would implement.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugI6QVob90c

I believe Martavis was doing MMA training back in 2015.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2015/05/martavis-bryant-incorporating-mma-training-into-offseason-regimen/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+SteelersDepotBlog+%28Steelers +Depot%29

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I believe Martavis was doing MMA training back in 2015.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2015/05/martavis-bryant-incorporating-mma-training-into-offseason-regimen/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+SteelersDepotBlog+%28Steelers +Depot%29

Manufacturing Marijuana Accessories? That MMA?

[pczach]

I like that they show video of exactly what they're criticizing him for in his performance. What I don't like is that they only mention that he's been dealing with a serious shoulder injury. If you're going to show performance problems, I think they should have given more specifics on the injury and how is limits him on the field.

Does he need to improve his technique? Yes.

Does he need to use the inside rush more? Clearly yes.

Does he need to use his hands more effectively? Yes.

Is he being limited by a shoulder injury? I believe clearly yes.

I think they should have shown video of what he was doing in the second half of last year as well for a better comparison, and to give a better idea of how his play is different than last year's better play as a way to help determine how much the injury is holding him back.

As someone who has had shoulder injuries and is currently getting physical therapy for a shoulder issue, I can tell you that you lose range of motion, speed, strength, and explosion, while also dealing with the pain that every movement within the joint creates.

I know how much that injury can limit you. That's why I want to see him get better physically before I make a determination about his performance.

[Psycho Ward 86]

He needs some martial arts in the off-season in my opinion, his boxing training has helped, but his hands still need a lot of work.

a lot of pass rushers do that. Tamba Hali swears by his karate and jujitsu for hand fighting dexterity

[Mojouw]

Man, you think the Steelers would remember, since there was a nastly OLB here that basically brought this idea to the NFL before most others:

https://youtu.be/jJnJQldCSrM

[tube517]

Manufacturing Marijuana Accessories? That MMA?

:rofl2:

I think the first time this was posted here was post #420

[BlackAndGold]

Still holding out hope that his shoulder gets healthier and he starts to play better.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I believe the Lions game (or the Bengals game? Its one of the 2) is the 1st game of the season in which Dupree didnt need special numbing injections just to ease the pain enough in his shoulder to play. Dude could barely raise his arms on game day before that. Bud might have benefitted from the bye week rest more than anybody

[st33lersguy]

I really don't get the Jarvis Jones comparison, Dupree was much faster and much more explosive

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I really don't get the Jarvis Jones comparison, Dupree was much faster and much more explosive

Agreed. Dupree is a bigger, faster and more explosive of an athlete like you say. Jones was smaller, slower and didn't get off the snap that quickly. He got coverage sacks in college. Cant compare other than relative lack of production of 1st round pass rushers.

[SteelerFanInStl]

I really don't get the Jarvis Jones comparison, Dupree was much faster and much more explosive

There is no comparison between the two.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

The bye week would have been a good time to try out Harrison and see what he can do on Bud's side. Let Harrison split sometime with Bud to his shoulder heals up and make Harrison happy as well getting some reps. Plus would like to see some non holding calls on James from that side for a change. The ones on the right have jump the shark for years now.

[steelreserve]

I really don't get the Jarvis Jones comparison, Dupree was much faster and much more explosive


There is no comparison between the two.

It's the idea of drafting a guy in R1 knowing he's in the "needs work" category ... it's just a flat risk no matter how good the athlete is. Dupree is obviously stronger and faster, but IMO was just as risky a pick because he had to overcome the same thing. Seems to be doing a little better on balance, but unless he really figures it out to a level he hasn't so far, all we're ever going to be talking about is "potential," until we're talking about when we need to draft an OLB again. I really hope he DOES get it, but the point is the same.

Yes, I get that you can't always take the safe route, and they a team of all Vince Williams, who have great game sense but are not athletic freaks, is also not likely to be a winning formula, but Christ, man. Look at the guys who the light bulb goes on for, and who make things happen in the league. They're generally not farting around in their third or fourth season while we cross our fingers and go "maybe it's injuries" "maybe he's learning," "maybe *this* is finally his year," etc. Once in a while, but not usually.

[DesertSteel]

All that work in the offseason with the sack guru and he's on pace for 6??? Whatever the issue is, he needs to get it fixed before he goes full bust status.

[BlackAndGold]

I believe the Lions game (or the Bengals game? Its one of the 2) is the 1st game of the season in which Dupree didnt need special numbing injections just to ease the pain enough in his shoulder to play. Dude could barely raise his arms on game day before that. Bud might have benefitted from the bye week rest more than anybody

I don't believe his shoulder is going to be close to 100% this season. We'll most likely hear about him getting a procedure done in the off season.

Bud was looking fantastic in the preseason from what I remember. Showing counter moves, getting under tackles with a good bend. There is no doubt his shoulder is bothering him.

[teegre]

As I’ve averred for a while, if/when Dupree ever develops a move besides running upfield (and out of the play), he’ll be very good.

His first step and/or explosion off of the snap is uncanny. It’s why he was drafted in R1.

While that “one move” was good enough for college, he needed to develop a second (and third) move. Enter Chuck Smith... and Smith was wowwed by Dupree; so much so, that Smith claimed that Dupree would be the DPOY.

I’m not seeing ANY of the moves/countermoves that Smith taught him, which leads me to believe that Dupree is injured... which sucks, because it’s the second season in a row where he has not been anywhere near 100%.

SUMMATION:
Living in San Diego, I heard people lambast Melvin Ingram for several seasons (when Ingram was fighting through injuries). Look at Ingram now (i.e. it’s where Dupree should be next season).

[Mojouw]

It's the idea of drafting a guy in R1 knowing he's in the "needs work" category ... it's just a flat risk no matter how good the athlete is. Dupree is obviously stronger and faster, but IMO was just as risky a pick because he had to overcome the same thing. Seems to be doing a little better on balance, but unless he really figures it out to a level he hasn't so far, all we're ever going to be talking about is "potential," until we're talking about when we need to draft an OLB again. I really hope he DOES get it, but the point is the same.

Yes, I get that you can't always take the safe route, and they a team of all Vince Williams, who have great game sense but are not athletic freaks, is also not likely to be a winning formula, but Christ, man. Look at the guys who the light bulb goes on for, and who make things happen in the league. They're generally not farting around in their third or fourth season while we cross our fingers and go "maybe it's injuries" "maybe he's learning," "maybe *this* is finally his year," etc. Once in a while, but not usually.

There are maybe 5-7 guys in each draft class that don't "need work". Unless you are the Cleveland Browns, most teams are not annually drafting in that range.

http://pfref.com/tiny/02P6U - the DE and OLBs drafted the same year as Dupree. If you look at sacks per game -- he compares favorably to almost the entire class. Beasely and Hunter are the two that seem to have it over him - the rest not so much.

[teegre]

Beasely and Hunter are the two that seem to have it over him - the rest not so much.

Those two names make me think of two things:

1) Tomlin loved Beasley. Thus, pre-draft he was mocked to the Steelers (and, Dupree was mocked to the Falcons). Then... the draft flipped those two names.

2) I really wanted Hunter. (see: below) I'm happy with Dupree... but...

http://www.thepointofpittsburgh.com/dinner-takes-all-meals-influence-the-2015-nfl-draft/

[Mojouw]

Those two names make me think of two things:

1) Tomlin loved Beasley. Thus, pre-draft he was mocked to the Steelers (and, Dupree was mocked to the Falcons). Then... the draft flipped those two names.

2) I really wanted Hunter. (see: below) I'm happy with Dupree... but...

http://www.thepointofpittsburgh.com/dinner-takes-all-meals-influence-the-2015-nfl-draft/

Yeah. Beasley had a slow 4 sack rookie year. Then a great 15.5 sack year. And now he has the same # of sacks as Dupree in 2017 - I think. 4?

Hunter is a handful for sure - but he is playing as a DE. I wonder, as I did when he came out, if he could be a complete OLB? Still, appears to be a more complete pass rusher than Dupree.

I think we tend to focus on what players on the Steelers are "not doing" rather than what they are doing in comparison to reasonable comps. I wish I could find a good site that tracked pressures/hurries per game. That would be the thing to really see what is what with various edge rushers...

[SteelerFanInStl]

There are maybe 5-7 guys in each draft class that don't "need work". Unless you are the Cleveland Browns, most teams are not annually drafting in that range.

http://pfref.com/tiny/02P6U - the DE and OLBs drafted the same year as Dupree. If you look at sacks per game -- he compares favorably to almost the entire class. Beasely and Hunter are the two that seem to have it over him - the rest not so much.

Truth!

[steelreserve]

There are maybe 5-7 guys in each draft class that don't "need work". Unless you are the Cleveland Browns, most teams are not annually drafting in that range.

http://pfref.com/tiny/02P6U - the DE and OLBs drafted the same year as Dupree. If you look at sacks per game -- he compares favorably to almost the entire class. Beasely and Hunter are the two that seem to have it over him - the rest not so much.

You're right about that; rarely do you find people who are 100% NFL-ready straight out of college.

On the other hand, you have two types of that. One is the players who just need general improvement, practice, getting used to the NFL level, that kind of thing. The other is "this player lacks specific component X in his game and will not be successful without it, so he will have to learn it at the same time as getting used to the NFL." Those are way more risky picks.

It's easy to see the difference - I mean look at Dupree versus T.J. Watt right on our own team. In a more dramatic fashion, it's the difference between Tuitt and Ziggy Hood. Or Hargrave versus McCullers or Alameda Ta'amu (remember him?). Or Burns and, say, Eli Apple. Easy to get burned on a pick of an "incomplete" player compared to one who just needs to adjust to the next level.

I wouldn't call Dupree a "bust" or anything at this point, but he's far from great either. Definitely better than Jones at this point, and at least they're doing something to try and actively address the missing piece. (With Jones it seemed like it was always "grrrrr, look how many more weights I was lifting again!") Maybe there weren't too many OLBs that year who have penciled out better than him in hindsight. Hell, maybe OLB wasn't the position to take that year in hindsight. Or maybe it will turn out to be. Point is, this seems to be a big "roll the dice" position for us, and maybe a position that plays out that way more than others.

[Mojouw]

You're right about that; rarely do you find people who are 100% NFL-ready straight out of college.

On the other hand, you have two types of that. One is the players who just need general improvement, practice, getting used to the NFL level, that kind of thing. The other is "this player lacks specific component X in his game and will not be successful without it, so he will have to learn it at the same time as getting used to the NFL." Those are way more risky picks.

It's easy to see the difference - I mean look at Dupree versus T.J. Watt right on our own team. In a more dramatic fashion, it's the difference between Tuitt and Ziggy Hood. Or Hargrave versus McCullers or Alameda Ta'amu (remember him?). Or Burns and, say, Eli Apple. Easy to get burned on a pick of an "incomplete" player compared to one who just needs to adjust to the next level.

I wouldn't call Dupree a "bust" or anything at this point, but he's far from great either. Definitely better than Jones at this point, and at least they're doing something to try and actively address the missing piece. (With Jones it seemed like it was always "grrrrr, look how many more weights I was lifting again!") Maybe there weren't too many OLBs that year who have penciled out better than him in hindsight. Hell, maybe OLB wasn't the position to take that year in hindsight. Or maybe it will turn out to be. Point is, this seems to be a big "roll the dice" position for us, and maybe a position that plays out that way more than others.

That makes a ton of sense. I think it is because there are a few "premier" positions in the NFL right now. You are not going to win without:

QB
OT
Edge Rusher

Those are in a situation where the demand far far exceeds the supply. In Dupree's draft class 6 of the top 25 picks were "edge rushers". Basically every 5th pick in the first round was a pass rusher.

[steelreserve]

That makes a ton of sense. I think it is because there are a few "premier" positions in the NFL right now. You are not going to win without:

QB
OT
Edge Rusher

Those are in a situation where the demand far far exceeds the supply. In Dupree's draft class 6 of the top 25 picks were "edge rushers". Basically every 5th pick in the first round was a pass rusher.

Not only the demand for them, but I think OT and OLB are also the ones with some of the biggest "tactical" gaps between college players. In college you can get by and make a pretty good name for yourself as a G/T or a pass rusher just because you're stronger than everyone else, and of course that goes away in the NFL. Most of the other roles, even in college you can't completely fake it with athletic ability if you are missing some basic fundamentals to play the position. So combine that with the demand and you get some really high-risk picks.

I think we've done a good job recently at finding players who are sometimes freak athletes, sometimes not, but are usually not severely lacking in any key area - which is why we've seen some pretty good contributions from the most recent two draft classes and I guess 2014. It's when we make those yolo picks where a guy looks really good at one thing, and we take him despite some reservations about needing skills in other areas, that we seem to run into trouble. Those have been our last few bad or at least "questionable" picks.

[86WARD]

If Dupree isn’t showing progress, what makes anyone think that he’s going to show it in the future?

[teegre]

If Dupree isn’t showing progress, what makes anyone think that he’s going to show it in the future?

A: a healthy shoulder

[DesertSteel]

A: a healthy shoulder
Has he been healthy in three years here?

[teegre]

Has he been healthy in three years here?

Ding-ding-ding!!!

First it was him him being a rookie... then a hamstring... and now a shoulder.

As Bill Parcells used to say: "A player's most important ability is availability."

[Born2Steel]

Actually, all coaches say that. :D One armed Bud is still pretty impressive, IMO.