For the Run the Ball More Debate

[Mojouw]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/10/tomlin-right-jaguars-stack-box-dare-steelers-throw/

The tape says that the Steelers rushed about the right number of times purely based on formations shown by the Jags.

By no means does anyone have to agree with that take, but it does answer the "why?" questions to a degree.

Again, reasonable folks may totally disagree with the response to the Jags loading the box, but it does kinda kick the legs out from the idea that Haley and Ben are just making it up as they go along.

Of course the article that Shoes posted then goes into detail about how the passes they did call didn't really help matters either.

So maybe Haley is out to lunch? I don't know. But I do know that simply "run more" wasn't the answer last Sunday.

[86WARD]

Thing is though that the Jaguars do that and still can’t stop the run. So basically they baited the Steelers into their strength. I’d be willing to bet that the Jags are gonna run a very similar game plan this week against the Rams. They clearly try to get teams to play against their strengths and the Steelers totally fell for it.

[Mojouw]

My opinion is usually that despite what the overall stats say, you have to play the game in front of you. I have never been a big fan of running against a stacked box. Now if you want to line up in the power I behind a massive road grader line and slap the ball into Bettis' belly and say "do your thing, big fella". That is a bit different than a more agile/mobile line and a shiftier back like Bell.

I think against the Jags it is a process versus results kind of thing. The results were bad. But the process was correct - outside of the goal to go. The whole point of the supposed offensive machine the Steelers have constructed is that there is NO way a defense can stop you. Load up against the run - good luck stopping our array of pass catchers. Zone or man up to stop the pass? Meet Leveon Bell being led around the end by Pouncey and Decastro.

The more I read, watch, and listen to breakdowns of the game and review things from Sunday, the more it becomes clear that outside of the goaline play calls, the calls were there. Guys were open. Yards and points were left all over the field. For some reason that no one can really explain - the offenses timing and rhythm is so off, they can not execute against decent or better defenses.

That leads me to my final thought - this is something I will blame the coaches for. They, we now know incorrectly, believed that this offense could hit the ground running with minimal pre-season snaps. That just hasn't been the case. The players look like they just aren't in sync. Not surprising for a 20 year old wideout, another wideout that hasn't played in like a year and a half, a TE who is totally new to the offense, a back-up RT, and a RB who held out coming off surgery. I honestly thought they could overcome all that - but clearly I was wrong. I honestly believe the explanation is that simply. These guys just haven't played enough full speed game reps together and it shows.

[steelreserve]

I think it comes down more to execution. Our passing game has been bad and out-of-sync all year regardless of what the opponent does. So in that respect, it was absolutely the right move for JAX to dare us to pass. They dared us, and we couldn't do it.

On the flip side, we weren't very effective at running the ball either against that shit. We were sitting at something like 40 yards at 3 yards per carry before the game got out of hand. So I don't know what it would've accomplished with more of that. Typically when a team is overcommitting, you punish them by doing the opposite, and that forces them to stop doing it. In this case, just one drive where we march down the field with medium passes was what was called for. We tried, but we couldn't do it. We sucked.

So in that respect, we were outmaneuvered. I don't know if I would say "outcoached." Their coaches had a good plan, we had the correct counter for it, and we sucked too bad to pull it off, so we were boxed into a no-win situation. You have to give the Jaguars' staff credit for recognizing the weakness and exploiting it in their game plan.

Now, if you want to argue that the sorry state of our offense has something to do with poor preparation and other non-gametime issues, and THAT'S partly/mostly the fault of the coaching staff, I'm way on board with that.

[Born2Steel]

My opinion is usually that despite what the overall stats say, you have to play the game in front of you. I have never been a big fan of running against a stacked box. Now if you want to line up in the power I behind a massive road grader line and slap the ball into Bettis' belly and say "do your thing, big fella". That is a bit different than a more agile/mobile line and a shiftier back like Bell.

I think against the Jags it is a process versus results kind of thing. The results were bad. But the process was correct - outside of the goal to go. The whole point of the supposed offensive machine the Steelers have constructed is that there is NO way a defense can stop you. Load up against the run - good luck stopping our array of pass catchers. Zone or man up to stop the pass? Meet Leveon Bell being led around the end by Pouncey and Decastro.

The more I read, watch, and listen to breakdowns of the game and review things from Sunday, the more it becomes clear that outside of the goaline play calls, the calls were there. Guys were open. Yards and points were left all over the field. For some reason that no one can really explain - the offenses timing and rhythm is so off, they can not execute against decent or better defenses.

That leads me to my final thought - this is something I will blame the coaches for. They, we now know incorrectly, believed that this offense could hit the ground running with minimal pre-season snaps. That just hasn't been the case. The players look like they just aren't in sync. Not surprising for a 20 year old wideout, another wideout that hasn't played in like a year and a half, a TE who is totally new to the offense, a back-up RT, and a RB who held out coming off surgery. I honestly thought they could overcome all that - but clearly I was wrong. I honestly believe the explanation is that simply. These guys just haven't played enough full speed game reps together and it shows.

Then we have to pinpoint why exactly we had the bad results. If it boils down to merely snaps as a unit, I have zero concern moving forward, it will basically fix itself over time. If we are looking at bad rout running by 3/4 WRs, and/or bad blocking by the oline, and/or the aging QB theory, I'm not so sure it is a quick fix issue.

[ALLD]

I think the Jags could have played with 10 men on D and the Steelers would have still imploded. Lack of game planning is part of it, but so is execution and over targeting AB and Bell who are whining for the ball.

[Craic]

Thing is though that the Jaguars do that and still can’t stop the run. So basically they baited the Steelers into their strength. I’d be willing to bet that the Jags are gonna run a very similar game plan this week against the Rams. They clearly try to get teams to play against their strengths and the Steelers totally fell for it.

Except, they didn't. I posted in another thread Bell's runs. He'd gash them, and then his next two runs would go for a total of -1 yards or 2 yards, putting the Steelers in a 3rd and long. Because the runs weren't working against the Jags, we had to go to the pass.

[Mojouw]

Then we have to pinpoint why exactly we had the bad results. If it boils down to merely snaps as a unit, I have zero concern moving forward, it will basically fix itself over time. If we are looking at bad rout running by 3/4 WRs, and/or bad blocking by the oline, and/or the aging QB theory, I'm not so sure it is a quick fix issue.

I totally agree. And I have no ideas beyond the whole "more snaps = better football". I think here, you either trust the players and coaches to figure it out, or you don't.

Any point aside from this year and I undoubtedly would. This year, just feels different because the QB stinks too.

[hawaiiansteeler]

So maybe Haley is out to lunch?

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/1304072100_1304047163_1.gif?w=234&h=244

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Steelers got behind and had to throw more. This is the modern NFL where if you don't throw it 40 times a game, you are criticized for playing Cowherball or Martyball or being a dinosaur.

Reality is that O linemen love to run block and the Steelers could have hung more responsibility on the line and Bell to run the ball, but Chris Hubbard is a major downgrade at RT and I believe that impacted running to that side. I still think if you want to be a physical team, then you have to impose your will on the ground with the O line. Steelers played soft last week, so moving onto KC......movin on.

[teegre]

Chris Hubbard is a major downgrade at RT and I believe that impacted running to that side.

Plus, it affected the pressure from that side.

And, the number of penalties.

SUMMATION:
Gilbert is probably our best O-lineman, and missing him is huge.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

SUMMATION:
Gilbert is probably our best O-lineman, and missing him is huge.

Yes, that is until he gets a penalty and the fanbase will then crucify him for being a worthless bum. :rulez:


But then they can turn to the bloggers who will write articles about Bell's holdout of Haley's playcalling or Tomlin's lack of discipline...when all the while the real reason for lack of run game is they are missing their best O lineman. SMH

[Moose]

Some real good points here, and hard to argue. Trying to find the problem with this team this year is really puzzling. I wouldn't say they are terrible, but , as I've said for 5 weeks now, this team isn't good. There are problems in every aspect of the team. They aren't solid anywhere. And now the QB has become an issue. We all kind agree that the bad coaching has been an issue for a long time. I just don't think Tomlin is a motivator at all. If he does get in anyone's ass for not doing their job, it has to be behind closed doors and very secretly and with the media the way it is we would all know if it is happening. So, I don't really think he chews ass. Haley ? Not much good so far to say with his play calling, I just don't think he has a clue on what to do with the talent he has, just my personal opinion. As in Jax game for example, sitting on the 5 yrd line with 4 tries to score TD and you do 3 passing plays ?! This team is in some serious disarray so to speak, with finding a fix no where to be found, nor by whom.

[Mojouw]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/10/film-room-blocking-still-culprit-behind-run-game-struggles/

Looky here - Jesse James can't block worth a tinkers dam.

In his defense, neither did anyone else.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/10/alejandro-villanueva-wants-stop-comparing-years-o-line-last-years/

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/10/film-room-blocking-still-culprit-behind-run-game-struggles/

Looky here - Jesse James can't block worth a tinkers dam.

In his defense, neither did anyone else.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/10/alejandro-villanueva-wants-stop-comparing-years-o-line-last-years/

Play 1 that is highlighted , James down blocks very well. The bloggers comment that "the lineman didn't stick his block" is completely wrong, as the strong side defensive back gets upfield to turn the play in and its physicially impossible for the OG pulling from the opposite side to seal the outside. He actually does all he can, which is kick out the block as hard as he can and then McDonald needed to block the LB, so Bell would turn it up. Well played by the Jags corner, McDonald didn't react well and the video breakdown from the blogger is incorrect.

The 2nd video, the blogger singles out Nix, Decastro and Finney, but the play is run to the left A gap, while Nix is the lead blocker, DeCastro is in the right side B gap and gets to the inside shoulder of the defender and Finney is in the right side C gap and doesn't effectively seal his defender, but he is 3 gaps over from the play. The DE that Foster is blocking in the B gap, comes off his block to make the play, while the LB squeezed down the gap by blocking Nix well. Again, good defense and a better block from Foster and Bell can perhaps hit the seam, but the blogger is calling out the 3rd and 4th defenders, not the point of attack.

I just stopped watching the videos after that. :crazy:

[Mojouw]

Play 1 that is highlighted , James down blocks very well. The bloggers comment that "the lineman didn't stick his block" is completely wrong, as the strong side defensive back gets upfield to turn the play in and its physicially impossible for the OG pulling from the opposite side to seal the outside. He actually does all he can, which is kick out the block as hard as he can and then McDonald needed to block the LB, so Bell would turn it up. Well played by the Jags corner, McDonald didn't react well and the video breakdown from the blogger is incorrect.

The 2nd video, the blogger singles out Nix, Decastro and Finney, but the play is run to the left A gap, while Nix is the lead blocker, DeCastro is in the right side B gap and gets to the inside shoulder of the defender and Finney is in the right side C gap and doesn't effectively seal his defender, but he is 3 gaps over from the play. The DE that Foster is blocking in the B gap, comes off his block to make the play, while the LB squeezed down the gap by blocking Nix well. Again, good defense and a better block from Foster and Bell can perhaps hit the seam, but the blogger is calling out the 3rd and 4th defenders, not the point of attack.

I just stopped watching the videos after that. :crazy:

I don't know. This is not the best tape breaker down dude at Steelers Depot. But I do know that if you watch those plays several times each, you do see that Jesse James can't block worth crap and that, just as last season, blows up a decent amount of running plays. The first two vids are the weakest breakdowns of the group - but it is obvious in the further posts that Decastro and James missed several blocks on the afternoon that led to the RB encountering an unblocked tackler in the backfield or shortly over the LOS that brought the back down.

Overall, the point still holds that the success or lack thereof of the run game, goes well beyond the simple equation of call more plays.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I don't know. This is not the best tape breaker down dude at Steelers Depot. But I do know that if you watch those plays several times each, you do see that Jesse James can't block worth crap and that, just as last season, blows up a decent amount of running plays. The first two vids are the weakest breakdowns of the group - but it is obvious in the further posts that Decastro and James missed several blocks on the afternoon that led to the RB encountering an unblocked tackler in the backfield or shortly over the LOS that brought the back down.

Overall, the point still holds that the success or lack thereof of the run game, goes well beyond the simple equation of call more plays.

You are correct, that the "tape breaker down dude " isn't the best. He used to visit Steelersfever years ago and his football knowledge was less than stellar.

Of course the simple calling of more run plays isn't the sole answer, but the need to be blocked up better. The chance of getting well blocked up run plays and a physical offensive line comes with calling more plays as well. Run blocking, you are the hammer.....while pass blocking you are the nail. If you want to be physical team, you need to give your O line more chances on being the hammer.

[Mojouw]

You are correct, that the "tape breaker down dude " isn't the best. He used to visit Steelersfever years ago and his football knowledge was less than stellar.

Of course the simple calling of more run plays isn't the sole answer, but the need to be blocked up better. The chance of getting well blocked up run plays and a physical offensive line comes with calling more plays as well. Run blocking, you are the hammer.....while pass blocking you are the nail. If you want to be physical team, you need to give your O line more chances on being the hammer.

I can get behind that. I also think the run blocking needs to a bit less "ambitious". Particularly, Jesse James can not continually be asked to seal the edge or pull and lead. He just isn't a good enough blocker. In fact, I actually have to wonder why Jesse James is still stubbornly adhered to as the # 1 TE.

He doesn't block well. In fact his blocking has directly lead to multiple negative/failed running plays across this season and last season. He is a "meh" in the passing game. Demonstrating no special ability at finding his way to open spots on the field, no real proclivity for making contested catches despite his physical size, and he makes essentially zero yards after the catch.

At this point, I do not understand why McDonald or Grimble is not being given more of a shot. I would argue that, at least on Sunday, James' play actively contributed to the offensive struggles.

[steelreserve]

Some real good points here, and hard to argue. Trying to find the problem with this team this year is really puzzling. I wouldn't say they are terrible, but , as I've said for 5 weeks now, this team isn't good. There are problems in every aspect of the team. They aren't solid anywhere. And now the QB has become an issue. We all kind agree that the bad coaching has been an issue for a long time. I just don't think Tomlin is a motivator at all. If he does get in anyone's ass for not doing their job, it has to be behind closed doors and very secretly and with the media the way it is we would all know if it is happening. So, I don't really think he chews ass. Haley ? Not much good so far to say with his play calling, I just don't think he has a clue on what to do with the talent he has, just my personal opinion. As in Jax game for example, sitting on the 5 yrd line with 4 tries to score TD and you do 3 passing plays ?! This team is in some serious disarray so to speak, with finding a fix no where to be found, nor by whom.

Here's one possibility: No Heath Miller has fucked things up worse than anyone thought. Our offense thrived on those medium-range passes of 10-20 yards, and he was great at getting open right there, and the threat probably created a ton of space for other receivers underneath or going long. Now there's no one open in the medium range and the receivers are covered on the long bombs. We're forcing everything and only Brown is good enough to catch most of them anyway. And it doesn't help either that we have to make a big and obvious tradeoff between blocking and receiving at the TE spot, to the point where we either telegraph our intentions or play to our weaknesses instead of our strengths.

The one issue with this theory is you would think it would've been just as much of a problem last year too, then. Maybe the Bell/Bryant no-practice effect is making it worse. There goes our best underneath threat and our best deep threat, and our best medium threat retired a couple years ago. No wonder our passing game sucks.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

At this point, I do not understand why McDonald or Grimble is not being given more of a shot. I would argue that, at least on Sunday, James' play actively contributed to the offensive struggles.

I think the answer is self explanatory. Steelers have been light at TE for a couple years now and if Grimble had made any progress, he would be seeing more time. Vance McDonald lead all NFL TE's in drops last season and the 49ers thought so much of him they started a rookie and let him go for moving a few spots in the draft.

TE room isn't that talented, despite all the PSU homers being enamoured with James, I have always said and still maintain that he is a #2 TE talent, but starting at TE because the Steelers cant draft TE in the first 2 rounds with all the other more pressing talent needs.

[Mojouw]

Here's one possibility: No Heath Miller has fucked things up worse than anyone thought. Our offense thrived on those medium-range passes of 10-20 yards, and he was great at getting open right there, and the threat probably created a ton of space for other receivers underneath or going long. Now there's no one open in the medium range and the receivers are covered on the long bombs. We're forcing everything and only Brown is good enough to catch most of them anyway. And it doesn't help either that we have to make a big and obvious tradeoff between blocking and receiving at the TE spot, to the point where we either telegraph our intentions or play to our weaknesses instead of our strengths.

The one issue with this theory is you would think it would've been just as much of a problem last year too, then. Maybe the Bell/Bryant no-practice effect is making it worse. There goes our best underneath threat and our best deep threat, and our best medium threat retired a couple years ago. No wonder our passing game sucks.

I hadn't really thought about the spacing issues due to recieving issues at TE. i mean I have, but I haven't really worked through it the way you clearly have.

But I have long thought that due to the lack of a "complete" TE, the Steelers really tip their hand based on the TE in the game. I see that I am not the only one.

I really feel like we all got cheated that Bryant didn't stay sober and Ladarius Green's noggin disintegrated. A non-rusty Bryant (who knows if he ever gets back - he certainly doesn't look explosive anymore), AB, Green, Rogers, Bell, and JuJu? Oh my goodness.

Of course, I also through that about the current offense, so what do I know?

- - - Updated - - -


I think the answer is self explanatory. Steelers have been light at TE for a couple years now and if Grimble had made any progress, he would be seeing more time. Vance McDonald lead all NFL TE's in drops last season and the 49ers thought so much of him they started a rookie and let him go for moving a few spots in the draft.

TE room isn't that talented, despite all the PSU homers being enamoured with James, I have always said and still maintain that he is a #2 TE talent, but starting at TE because the Steelers cant draft TE in the first 2 rounds with all the other more pressing talent needs.

I'm honestly not sure why Jesse James deserves a spot on an NFL roster outside of desperation. He can't block and he isn't good enough in the pass game to excuse his lack of blocking. What does he do well? Besides be tall and be from Penn State? At least a guy like Spaeth learned how to block.

[steelreserve]

I hadn't really thought about the spacing issues due to recieving issues at TE. i mean I have, but I haven't really worked through it the way you clearly have.

But I have long thought that due to the lack of a "complete" TE, the Steelers really tip their hand based on the TE in the game. I see that I am not the only one.

I really feel like we all got cheated that Bryant didn't stay sober and Ladarius Green's noggin disintegrated. A non-rusty Bryant (who knows if he ever gets back - he certainly doesn't look explosive anymore), AB, Green, Rogers, Bell, and JuJu? Oh my goodness.

Of course, I also through that about the current offense, so what do I know?

What it boils down to is a couple of players who we were counting on let us down. Or depending on how you define it, several players. Green and Bryant for sure, but ... what if Coates had stepped up and been the guy who saved the day? What if Wheaton had? Is Bell being scapegoated unfairly or is he really part of the problem? Lots of questions like that. Too many.



I'm honestly not sure why Jesse James deserves a spot on an NFL roster outside of desperation. He can't block and he isn't good enough in the pass game to excuse his lack of blocking. What does he do well? Besides be tall and be from Penn State? At least a guy like Spaeth learned how to block.

There are a lot of guys like that around; he's "good enough" at receiving to hang around somewhere as a situational guy. But I think time is about up for those hoping he'd turn out to be "the answer" or even a well-rounded player. I was among them this offseason, but he just does not seem to have what it takes to get over that hump, so he is going to remain a one-dimensional player and that one dimension is only "pretty good." Well, what do you expect from a fifth-round draft pick; at least he was better than Paulson or Palmer and whatever other pieces of crap we got in the 7th. But I guess you can't escape that you get what you pay for.

[43Hitman]

What it boils down to is a couple of players who we were counting on let us down. Or depending on how you define it, several players. Green and Bryant for sure, but ... what if Coates had stepped up and been the guy who saved the day? What if Wheaton had? Is Bell being scapegoated unfairly or is he really part of the problem? Lots of questions like that. Too many.




There are a lot of guys like that around; he's "good enough" at receiving to hang around somewhere as a situational guy. But I think time is about up for those hoping he'd turn out to be "the answer" or even a well-rounded player. I was among them this offseason, but he just does not seem to have what it takes to get over that hump, so he is going to remain a one-dimensional player and that one dimension is only "pretty good." Well, what do you expect from a fifth-round draft pick; at least he was better than Paulson or Palmer and whatever other pieces of crap we got in the 7th. But I guess you can't escape that you get what you pay for.
He also seems to be at least better than Maxwell House or whatever his name is in Baltimore, whom a lot of fans wanted the Steelers to draft. Not saying much, but its something.

[st33lersguy]

I'm honestly not sure why Jesse James deserves a spot on an NFL roster outside of desperation. He can't block and he isn't good enough in the pass game to excuse his lack of blocking. What does he do well? Besides be tall and be from Penn State? At least a guy like Spaeth learned how to block.

I'm not sure either, he isn't a good TE.

[Mojouw]

I'm not sure either, he isn't a good TE.

It's odd. More and more guys are coming into the league as TE that can't do basic Te things.

I've been hearing about how colleges aren't producing OL, QB, And TEs that do what is traditionally desired in the pros. So does the NFL need to change what it is doing/looking for? Maybe stop using colleges as a minor league system and develop a real minor league system?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[43Hitman]

It's odd. More and more guys are coming into the league as TE that can't do basic Te things.

I've been hearing about how colleges aren't producing OL, QB, And TEs that do what is traditionally desired in the pros. So does the NFL need to change what it is doing/looking for? Maybe stop using colleges as a minor league system and develop a real minor league system?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The Big 10 is probably the best college division to get one and there are only like 2 or 3 good one's each year. We may need to have a little bit of luck to get a good one, like with Heath being injured and dropping to us at 25.

[AtlantaDan]

It's odd. More and more guys are coming into the league as TE that can't do basic Te things.

I've been hearing about how colleges aren't producing OL, QB, And TEs that do what is traditionally desired in the pros. So does the NFL need to change what it is doing/looking for? Maybe stop using colleges as a minor league system and develop a real minor league system?

NFL definitely has a problem with the spread offense, which does not teach the skills used in current pro offenses, currently being so popular in BCS level ball

But the networks that pay to broadcast the NFL also pay to broadcast what is touchingly referred to as "college" football (anyone who thinks big time NCAA revenue sports have anything to do with "college" other than using the name of the school for the team might want to take a look at how the University of North Carolina athletic department rolls). The networks that need that programming (which taps into emotions minor league NFL football could not for ratings), the athletic departments, and legislators representing the interests of dear old State U would not stand for any attempt to gut "college" football. That assumes the NFL would want to incur the capital expense of setting up a minor league to mature players for the pros rather than have a CBA that requires a player to wait three years after high school and train at no cost to the NFL before being eligible to enter the draft.

So the NFL will tolerate crappy quality of play caused by the current system just as it will tolerate the first few weeks of the regular season being the equivalent of what used to be the last few weeks of preseason for quality of play.

If this reads as me being increasingly disenchanted with the NFL it is because I am. I am watching the Steelers but few other games in their entirety this season (other than when it appears the Patriots might lose :chuckle: )

As far as what appear to be the recurring missed assignments with the 2017 Steelers, I read this observation from long time Washington Post reporter Thomas Boswell this morning when discussing the latest collapse of the Washington Nationals - it addresses baseball but I think is applicable to any pro sport and discusses an obsession about despising defeat that is similar to what John Banazak described in the America's Game episode on the 1979 Steelers

Passion for details of the game, hidden edges, the lust to make an opponent look like a fool... is also often a measure of competitive passion. The hardest losers are also often the hardest students. Give me hard losers. Cull the rest.

Long ago, I asked the coiled-spring guru Gene Mauch, “What is the worst thing about managing?” Mauch, who managed nearly 4,000 games and played in more than 300 more, thought before answering, a surprising quality 30 years ago, now extinct. “The day you realize that you care more than they do,” he said.

The Nationals care. They work. They are good teammates. They don’t quit when they are behind or when injuries arrive. And they are an enormously talented and likable team — an unusual combination. But if they think they are in the top 10 percent of MLB teams in the past 40 years when it comes to being obsessed, to being driven and despising defeat, they would be incorrect.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/in-the-cold-gray-of-the-day-after-nats-shortcomings-are-subtle-but-all-too-clear/2017/10/14/5a078b48-b095-11e7-9e58-e6288544af98_story.html?utm_term=.a22ba9b23a95
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/in-the-cold-gray-of-the-day-after-nats-shortcomings-are-subtle-but-all-too-clear/2017/10/14/5a078b48-b095-11e7-9e58-e6288544af98_story.html?utm_term=.a22ba9b23a95)
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/in-the-cold-gray-of-the-day-after-nats-shortcomings-are-subtle-but-all-too-clear/2017/10/14/5a078b48-b095-11e7-9e58-e6288544af98_story.html?utm_term=.a22ba9b23a95)IMO the hardest loser on the Steelers is Antonio Brown, even though that appears to be mostly about losing his individual matchup - some others not so much

[Edman]

The Offense was out of sync all year so far. The Jaguars are just one of the teams who recently feasted on it.

We have a QB that is not playing well at all, a RB who is still finding himself, and a WR bitching for the ball. The offense has no rhythm or cohesion and too many individuals chasing for statistics and highlights. No one is on the same page.

Too many unchecked egos on the Steelers. They have many great individual players, but overall are a bad team.

[Mojouw]

I will throw this out there. I think NFL coaching staffs are making a big mistake sitting established players in the preseason games. They just don’t get the same kind of reps in practice.

Teams are damned if they do because of the risk of injury. Dam end if they don;t because of the risk of out of sync play.

[43Hitman]

I will throw this out there. I think NFL coaching staffs are making a big mistake sitting established players in the preseason games. They just don’t get the same kind of reps in practice.

Teams are damned if they do because of the risk of injury. Dam end if they don;t because of the risk of out of sync play.
I wonder if established players, or players in general would be willing to accept more padded practices for less playing time in the pre-season? It seems like it would be a fair trade-off and the teams at least can somewhat control the padded practices. You wouldn't have to worry about a rogue player from another team trying to make a name for himself by cheap-shotting(sp?) a star player.

[Mojouw]

I wonder if established players, or players in general would be willing to accept more padded practices for less playing time in the pre-season? It seems like it would be a fair trade-off and the teams at least can somewhat control the padded practices. You wouldn't have to worry about a rogue player from another team trying to make a name for himself by cheap-shotting(sp?) a star player.

That might be a great compromise solution!

[AtlantaDan]

I wonder if established players, or players in general would be willing to accept more padded practices for less playing time in the pre-season? It seems like it would be a fair trade-off and the teams at least can somewhat control the padded practices. You wouldn't have to worry about a rogue player from another team trying to make a name for himself by cheap-shotting(sp?) a star player.

I do not know how you would negotiate that quid pro quo.

The CBA sets training camp rules (this was from 2016 but I do not think it has changed for 2017)

Every training camp is governed by the rules of the NFL's collective bargaining agreement. Here are the rules pertaining to training camp practices:

*The first day of training camp is limited to physical exams, meetings and classroom instruction. Running and conditioning are the only on-field activities permitted.

*No contact is allowed and no pads can be worn on the second and third days of training camp.

*After the third day of training camp two-a-days are permitted with the following restrictions:

*Players may be on the field for a total of no more than four hours per day.

*Players may participate in no more than one padded practice per day, which shall be no longer than three hours of on-field activities.

*There must be at least a three-hour break after the first practice.

*The second practice on the same day may only be for a maximum of the remaining available on-field time and has to be limited to only walk-through instruction (no helmets, full-speed pre-snap and walking pace after the snap).

*The three-hour limit on padded practices begins as soon as position coaches start to coach players on the field.

*If a team begins a padded practice but the practice is canceled within 60 minutes of its start due to inclement weather or any other reason beyond the team's control, the practice won't count as a padded practice.

*A padded practice is defined as a practice in which players are required to wear helmets and shoulder pads.

*Teams are required to film all on-field activities during training camp. A copy of the film needs to be maintained until 30 days after the start of the regular season. The NFLPA can view the film if a player files a complaint alleging a violation of the training camp rules.

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2016/07/a_primer_on_the_nfl_cbas_training_camp_rules.html

The CBA also sets the max number of regular season padded practices (this in an article regarding the Canadian league eliminating all regular season padded practices)

The NFL's current CBA limits teams to 14 padded practices during the regular season, 11 of which must come in the first 11 weeks of the season. Teams are not required to use them all, and some don't.

http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/20695591/cfl-eliminates-pads-all-regular-season-practices

You might get the owners to agree to reduce the number of preseason games (probably in return for at least one more regular season game to make up for the two preseason games that are included in season ticket packages) in return for more padded practices but I do not see how you could get coaches to agree as a CBA matter how many reps each player got in preseason games (which any marginal player trying to make the team would not want because it might result in them getting cut)

NFL wants to avoid injuries and blows to the head but that is, for better or worse, how the game has been played

[43Hitman]

I do not know how you would negotiate that quid pro quo.

The CBA sets training camp rules (this was from 2016 but I do not think it has changed for 2017)

Every training camp is governed by the rules of the NFL's collective bargaining agreement. Here are the rules pertaining to training camp practices:

*The first day of training camp is limited to physical exams, meetings and classroom instruction. Running and conditioning are the only on-field activities permitted.

*No contact is allowed and no pads can be worn on the second and third days of training camp.

*After the third day of training camp two-a-days are permitted with the following restrictions:

*Players may be on the field for a total of no more than four hours per day.

*Players may participate in no more than one padded practice per day, which shall be no longer than three hours of on-field activities.

*There must be at least a three-hour break after the first practice.

*The second practice on the same day may only be for a maximum of the remaining available on-field time and has to be limited to only walk-through instruction (no helmets, full-speed pre-snap and walking pace after the snap).

*The three-hour limit on padded practices begins as soon as position coaches start to coach players on the field.

*If a team begins a padded practice but the practice is canceled within 60 minutes of its start due to inclement weather or any other reason beyond the team's control, the practice won't count as a padded practice.

*A padded practice is defined as a practice in which players are required to wear helmets and shoulder pads.

*Teams are required to film all on-field activities during training camp. A copy of the film needs to be maintained until 30 days after the start of the regular season. The NFLPA can view the film if a player files a complaint alleging a violation of the training camp rules.

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2016/07/a_primer_on_the_nfl_cbas_training_camp_rules.html

The CBA also sets the max number of regular season padded practices (this in an article regarding the Canadian league eliminating all regular season padded practices)

The NFL's current CBA limits teams to 14 padded practices during the regular season, 11 of which must come in the first 11 weeks of the season. Teams are not required to use them all, and some don't.

http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/20695591/cfl-eliminates-pads-all-regular-season-practices

You might get the owners to agree to reduce the number of preseason games (probably in return for at least one more regular season game to make up for the two preseason games that are included in season ticket packages) in return for more padded practices but I do not see how you could get coaches to agree as a CBA matter how many reps each player got in preseason games (which any marginal player trying to make the team would not want because it might result in them getting cut)

NFL wants to avoid injuries and blows to the head but that is, for better or worse, how the game has been played
That does looks pretty solid. I guess if both parties can agree(I know highly unlikely) when the new CBA comes up, it could solve some problems with the less than stellar product we've been seeing in the early parts of the season.

[steelreserve]

I will throw this out there. I think NFL coaching staffs are making a big mistake sitting established players in the preseason games. They just don’t get the same kind of reps in practice.

Teams are damned if they do because of the risk of injury. Dam end if they don;t because of the risk of out of sync play.

They're not dammed if they do. They just don't because of all the hype that's developed.

You're not really going to dodge too many injuries by cutting down reps the way they do it, but you sure can cut down preparedness. A high-sacrifice, low-payoff way to appease the media riskmongers saying either "omg head injuries" or "omg highly paid players, can't ever use them!"

It is really amazing to me the way the NFL runs itself in the most knee-jerk, peer-pressure influenced way I've ever seen a business run, to the point where they're willing to mess up the quality of the product and do it with a smile on their face. Pro football as we know (knew) it is likely dead. All because of people who have little to no idea how an organized sports team needs to be run, but a hell of a lot of time on their hands to second-guess everyone else.

[ALLD]

Running game is the only thing working right now.

[Craic]

Running game is the only thing working right now.
?? Ben's having a pretty good game. I think he had on!y one incompletion the entire first quarter

[ALLD]

194 yards on the ground. I tuned in late when he looked out of sync.

[Edman]

Bell is team MVP for a reason.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Bell is team MVP for a reason. Agreed and AB is the best wr in the league bar none.

[Craic]

194 yards on the ground. I tuned in late when he looked out of sync.

Ahh. Makes sense.

Honestly, Ben looked decent today, and there were even a few flashes of the older Ben. His int was Brown's fault unfortunately and he hit several receivers in the hands. On the other hand, his TD pass to Brown was complete luck. Well, not complete. Ben's known to throw a fastball, and it's harder to catch them if you're not ready for it. Nevertheless, it wasn't a great throw. Great catch, absolutely. But not a great throw.

[ALLD]

I saw him when he was overthrowing by a fraction, not exactly on time. The TD to AB at the end should have been picked like another in the 3rd quarter. Nobody makes every play all the time and we got out with a win. We needed more Nix, Connor and the other RB. Defense left a couple of picks out there especially at the end. Good thing no Chief was behind Shazier when he left the last pass go through his hands.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Agreed and AB is the best wr in the league bar none.

except for when he stopped running on that slant route and caused the INT.