If Ben Retires After This Season

[Shoes]

What about Kirk Cousins? Seems like this is his last year in Washington & I know he's 29, but he is a good QB, I guess money would be the issue?

[Steeldude]

Sounds like a good choice.

[SteelerFanInStl]

He's a good QB but some team is going to pay a lot of money for him. I like Alex Smith as a possible replacement if KC decides to move forward with Mahomes.

[DesertSteel]

He's a good QB but some team is going to pay a lot of money for him. I like Alex Smith as a possible replacement if KC decides to move forward with Mahomes.
He's done about as well as Ben the past 3-4 years.

[ALLD]

Ben looks like they are pushing onto the field. He finally gets more weapons than ever and a decent OL when healthy and it's too late. He might be tired of all of the personal political BS in the locker room too. If I had $100 million I would say F it.

[Mojouw]

Assuming they don't just draft someone and throw them into the fire. I'll toss a couple of names out there:

1. Paxton Lynch. Might cost less to pry him out of Denver than it would to move around in the draft. Former highly regarded prospect who has struggled.
2. Hundley. The current Green Bay back-up. Many are really high on him. I don't see it, but I think he could come fairly cheap.
3. AJ McCarron. Not sure how this would work since it is in division.

[BurghBoy412]

Assuming they don't just draft someone and throw them into the fire. I'll toss a couple of names out there:

1. Paxton Lynch. Might cost less to pry him out of Denver than it would to move around in the draft. Former highly regarded prospect who has struggled.
2. Hundley. The current Green Bay back-up. Many are really high on him. I don't see it, but I think he could come fairly cheap.
3. AJ McCarron. Not sure how this would work since it is in division.It has been widely publicized here in Denver that Lynch hasn't the decision making capabilities to be a starting QB in the NFL. I highly doubt he could beat out Dobbs in a battle for the starting job. Here is one example from the preseason. There where many stories like this all through training camp and preseason. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/look-heres-the-play-where-paxton-lynch-lost-the-starting-job-to-trevor-siemian/

[Shoes]

I've been hear Luck wants out of Indianapolis. I don't know if that would be possible since he signed a new contract on 2016, I believe. He may be washed up, not sure how serious his injuries are but its nice to think of the options that may be available. I like McCarron on Mojouw's list.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I've been hear Luck wants out of Indianapolis. He may be washed up, not sure how serious his injuries are but its nice to think of the options that may be available. I like McCarron on Mojouw's list.

thats an interesting one. Here's his injury timeline: http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2017/08/16/andrew-lucks-secret-pain-timeline-injury-colts-hid-more-than-year/523709001/

[teegre]

I've been hear Luck wants out of Indianapolis. He may be washed up, not sure how serious his injuries are but its nice to think of the options that may be available. I like McCarron on Mojouw's list.

These are my thoughts, as well.

I'll add that that there might be 6 QBs drafted in R1 next April. If one drops to 32, I'd draft one, as well.

DEPTH CHART:
Luck
R1 2018
Dobbs

[steelreserve]

Not too excited about Lynch or Cousins. Neither strikes me as the guy who's going to lead you to a title. If Ben retires, that's a $20M+ salary, so we could theoretically take a shot at whoever.

If NO continues to suck this bad, I wouldn't mind seeing if Brees was was interested, one or two chances to get to the Super Bowl. Or if the Chargers shitstorm keeps up, maybe Rivers wants out of there, although it seems less likely.

Fuck Alex Smith, all he's ever done his whole career is be in offenses that had to be specifically designed around his shortcomings.

[BurghBoy412]

These are my thoughts, as well.

I'll add that that there might be 6 QBs drafted in R1 next April. If one drops to 32, I'd draft one, as well.

DEPTH CHART:
Luck
R1 2018
DobbsThis! I just wonder how they acquire Luck? Sign and trade Bell? Probably too much of a NBA move though.

[Shoes]

Garoppolo? Seems a bit fragile and Bill would want 7 picks for him.

[BurghBoy412]

I think there's a strong chance Sam Darnold stays at USC for another year. Strictly speculation of course. Not really sure it would make the Steelers chances of getting him any better either. Would be cool to have him reunited with JuJu.

[BlackAndGold]

I'm sure they'll try to get Cousins.

But other than that, a rookie or Dobbs will be the starting QB.

[teegre]

This! I just wonder how they acquire Luck? Sign and trade Bell? Probably too much of a NBA move though.

Trade picks for him... something like our R1's in 2018 and in 2019.

Of course, that is predicated on: a) Luck wanting out AND b) the Colts willing to part ways with him.

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Garoppolo? Seems a bit fragile and Bill would want 7 picks for him.

This past off-season, there was a rumor that the Browns were going to trade three R1 picks for Garoppolo... which explains why the Browns traded so vigorously to end up with three R1 picks in the 2017 draft.

But, I remember it coming out that Belichick was NEVER going to part ways with Garoppolo, because Belichick feels that Garoppolo is the future for them at QB. And, as we all know far too well, it can be 25 years between franchise QBs.

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I'm sure they'll try to get Cousins.

If my memory serves me correctly, during the draft process, Tomlin met with him/ate dinner with him...

[SteelerFanInStl]

I think there's a strong chance Sam Darnold stays at USC for another year. Strictly speculation of course. Not really sure it would make the Steelers chances of getting him any better either. Would be cool to have him reunited with JuJu.

He needs to from what I've seen. Wildly inconsistent. I'm not really interested in drafting him. Seems like the latest in a line of USC QB busts in the NFL.

[Born2Steel]

Assuming they don't just draft someone and throw them into the fire. I'll toss a couple of names out there:

1. Paxton Lynch. Might cost less to pry him out of Denver than it would to move around in the draft. Former highly regarded prospect who has struggled.
2. Hundley. The current Green Bay back-up. Many are really high on him. I don't see it, but I think he could come fairly cheap.
3. AJ McCarron. Not sure how this would work since it is in division.

The Lynch doubters really need to revisit his college game tapes, and his 2 starts for the Broncos last season. He can be the next BB.

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Of course, I would trade a lot for Andrew Luck also.

[DesertSteel]

At this point, there are plenty of QBs as good as Road Ben.

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If Drew Brees wants to play till he's 42, I'd take him in a heartbeat.

[BlackAndGold]

If my memory serves me correctly, during the draft process, Tomlin met with him/ate dinner with him...

That's correct. They wanted to draft him, but the Skins shocked everyone taking him in the 4th round.

Of course Pittsburgh then traded up to select Alameda Ta'amu, six picks after Cousins was drafted.

[Shoes]

That's correct. They wanted to draft him, but the Skins shocked everyone taking him in the 4th round.

Of course Pittsburgh then traded up to select Alameda Ta'amu, six picks after Cousins was drafted.

Another gem.

[Mojouw]

Another name to consider is Chad Kelly. The Broncos basically red-shirted him this year due to a bunch of long-to-heal but minor injuries.

His college type shows a kid who loves to hang in the pocket and make big throws down the field. Like it or not, that is the offense.

[DesertSteel]

Another name to consider is Chad Kelly. The Broncos basically red-shirted him this year due to a bunch of long-to-heal but minor injuries.

His college type shows a kid who loves to hang in the pocket and make big throws down the field. Like it or not, that is the offense.
Is he on their practice squad?

[tube517]

Is he on their practice squad?

Reserve/non football injury list

[st33lersguy]

The best course of action is pray Dobbs somehow turns into a quality starter or pray the QB the Steelers draft turns into a quality starter.

The odds of them finding a decent QB in free agency are slim to none and they would have to trade too much to trade for a high quality QB

[SteelerFanInStl]

If Ben retires, we need an experienced, proven NFL QB. Bringing in another young, inexperienced QB doesn't do us any good.

[BurghBoy412]

I've found the guy I'm hoping is the air apparent for BB. Ryan Finley from NC State 6'4" 205lbs. Great arm, plays in a pro style offense, sound decision maker. He should be available in the late 1st. The guy named Finley to replace the guy from Findlay.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duEMwobi-w0

[vasteeler]

If Ben retires after this season... We are fucked, for a while at least

[SteelerFanInStl]

If Ben retires after this season... We are fucked, for a while at least

Yea, I would have to agree with that. I went through all of the years between Bradshaw and Ben and don't really want to go through that again.

[86WARD]

Other than the Andrew Luck idea, there’s nothing in this thread that is currently on an NFL roster that is worth a shit in a bucket. If they were, they’d be starting somewhere.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Other than the Andrew Luck idea, there’s nothing in this thread that is currently on an NFL roster that is worth a shit in a bucket. If they were, they’d be starting somewhere.

I still like Alex Smith as a realistic possibility. While he'll probably never be an All Pro, he's still pretty good and would be a good stop gap until a drafted QB can take over. He's also playing better than Ben is right now and tore apart the Pats in week 1. He had some bad early years with SF but he's been real good with the Chiefs despite them not having very good WRs. I get that some people don't like him but on a good team with good WRs and OL, he can give you 3500 - 4000 yards passing and 20-25 TDs with single digit Int.

Realistically, there's just not going to be much to choose from if Ben retires.

[teegre]

If Drew Brees wants to play till he's 42, I'd take him in a heartbeat.

Flashback to 2001:
The majority of Steelers boards mocked Brees to the Steelers. I am still 100% convinced that Cowher wanted Dan Morgan. Similarly, I am 95% confident that we would have won the SuperBowl in 2001 if Brees had been the QB. I know that Hampton was outstanding, but a franchise QB trumps any NT.

Flashback to 2004:
The Chargers could have stuck with a Brees, and drafted Larry Fitzgerald... to go along with Gates and LT. Holy crap!!!

[43Hitman]

Flashback to 2001:
The majority of Steelers boards mocked Brees to the Steelers. I am still 100% convinced that Cowher wanted Dan Morgan. Similarly, I am 95% confident that we would have won the SuperBowl in 2001 if Brees had been the QB. I know that Hampton was outstanding, but a franchise QB trumps any NT.

Flashback to 2004:
The Chargers could have stuck with a Brees, and drafted Larry Fitzgerald... to go along with Gates and LT. Holy crap!!!
Speaking of Drew Brees if Nick Saban had acquired Brees instead of Daunta Culpepper he may have stayed in Miami for a while longer. If that happens, no Alabama dynasty.

[teegre]

Speaking of Drew Brees if Nick Saban had acquired Brees instead of Daunta Culpepper he may have stayed in Miami for a while longer. If that happens, no Alabama dynasty.

Yep.

Saban wanted Brees, but the owner vetoed the move... and "forced" Culpepper on Saban.

[Shoes]

After watching the 2nd half of the KC vs Skins, Id take Cousins or Smith. Cousins had the game won but Doctson dropped the ball in the EZ.

[SteelerFanInStl]

After watching the 2nd half of the KC vs Skins, Id take Cousins or Smith. Cousins had the game won but Doctson dropped the ball in the EZ.

Agreed. That was a perfect pass to Doctson. i'm not confident that they would've won though with the way that KC moved down the field so easily.

[Texasteel]

After watching the 2nd half of the KC vs Skins, Id take Cousins or Smith. Cousins had the game won but Doctson dropped the ball in the EZ.

I like Cousins always have, even when he was torching Iowa. I have to ask, would Wash. let him go, and what would it cost? I'm hearing that Smith is at the end of his contract and may not return to KC. Question: How many years could we get out of Smith? Enough to groom a young QB?

[AtlantaDan]

I like Cousins always have, even when he was torching Iowa. I have to ask, would Wash. let him go, and what would it cost? I'm hearing that Smith is at the end of his contract and may not return to KC. Question: How many years could we get out of Smith? Enough to groom a young QB?

Alex Smith was drafted the year after Ben in 2005 and is 2 years younger than Ben

Washington cannot afford to franchise Cousins for a third season in 2018 ($34.5 million) so he will be on the open market

Couisns will get his $$$ somewhere but thsi article points out his flaws as a franchise QB

The Redskins didn't actually botch the Kirk Cousins contract situation

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/07/nfl-kirk-cousins-contract-redskins-franchise-tag-bruce-allen

As for Smith, he has made himself a lot of $$$ for his next contract with his performance so far this season - the Chiefs presumed plan was to let him walk but that might be subject to change if the Chiefs go deep in the playoffs

Either QB will want a big long term deal that I doubt the Steelers can afford (Ben's salary would come off the books but they have other young talent to sign) or would be inclined to offer given the history of this franchise's pursuit of top shelf free agents

[EzraTank]

Not too excited about Lynch or Cousins. Neither strikes me as the guy who's going to lead you to a title. If Ben retires, that's a $20M+ salary, so we could theoretically take a shot at whoever.

If NO continues to suck this bad, I wouldn't mind seeing if Brees was was interested, one or two chances to get to the Super Bowl. Or if the Chargers shitstorm keeps up, maybe Rivers wants out of there, although it seems less likely.

Fuck Alex Smith, all he's ever done his whole career is be in offenses that had to be specifically designed around his shortcomings.

Did you watch last night's game. Both Cousins and Smith looked very good.

As for the Brees comments he had a terrible shoulder injury in San Diego and no one knew if he could come back. The Saints got lucky.

[steelreserve]

Did you watch last night's game. Both Cousins and Smith looked very good.

As for the Brees comments he had a terrible shoulder injury in San Diego and no one knew if he could come back. The Saints got lucky.

Smith is not going to win any team a Super Bowl, so I'm not interested. Probably same with Cousins. His ceiling is not-quite-good-enough. Maybe you could win a championship in the lucky Flacco way, or the team-carrying-the-weak-QB way like Dilfer ... but then what's the point of Smith specifically; you could just get any idiot to play QB.

[Born2Steel]

Smith has never been a great NFL QB. Good enough, yes, but never great. Didn't he get benched for a rookie in SF? Also, Cousins is more of the same we have now with 'declining Ben'. Except more of the bad. He looks very good on some drives and disappears on others. Makes unwise throws and misses open WRs. Not saying either is not better than what we currently have at backup, but neither is the move I would make. Lateral move at best. AND neither is as good as 'declining Ben'.

[86WARD]

I’ve always said Cousins was better than RGIII and got laughed at at times. Cousins really stepped up in that last drive...they had that game won.

[DesertSteel]

I didn't read that article, but the Redskins definitely botched the Cousins deal. Big time.

[Renegade]

Joshua Dobbs... will be awesome. I really think that with or without Ben, this team is going to represent the AFC in the next 2 Superbowls. I do not know if they will win 1, but I still like their chances. They have the best receivers, the best running back, a defense that is great again, and an OL that can match up with anyone. The defense and run game are what great teams are built around. I actually think that if they put Dobbs in now, they might be better off. Finally, while I would not agree with him on really anything at all, I WANT THE STEELERS TO SIGN COLIN KAEPERNICK. Imagine all the speed the team would have.... Bell, Brown, Bryant and Kaep. That is legendary Madden speed and would be a beautiful team to watch especially if the defense keeps it up.

[DesertSteel]

Joshua Dobbs... will be awesome. I really think that with or without Ben, this team is going to represent the AFC in the next 2 Superbowls. I do not know if they will win 1, but I still like their chances. They have the best receivers, the best running back, a defense that is great again, and an OL that can match up with anyone. The defense and run game are what great teams are built around. I actually think that if they put Dobbs in now, they might be better off. Finally, while I would not agree with him on really anything at all, I WANT THE STEELERS TO SIGN COLIN KAEPERNICK. Imagine all the speed the team would have.... Bell, Brown, Bryant and Kaep. That is legendary Madden speed and would be a beautiful team to watch especially if the defense keeps it up.

You lost me there........ completely.........

[vasteeler]

Joshua Dobbs... will be awesome. I really think that with or without Ben, this team is going to represent the AFC in the next 2 Superbowls. I do not know if they will win 1, but I still like their chances. They have the best receivers, the best running back, a defense that is great again, and an OL that can match up with anyone. The defense and run game are what great teams are built around. I actually think that if they put Dobbs in now, they might be better off. Finally, while I would not agree with him on really anything at all, I WANT THE STEELERS TO SIGN COLIN KAEPERNICK. Imagine all the speed the team would have.... Bell, Brown, Bryant and Kaep. That is legendary Madden speed and would be a beautiful team to watch especially if the defense keeps it up.

No to all of this except the 2 superbowls

[AtlantaDan]

They have ... a defense that is great again

Based on wins over Kizer, Keenum & Flacco along with getting shredded on the ground in Chicago?

I am holding off until after the KC and Detroit games before having any confidence in the pass defense

[SteelerFanInStl]

Based on wins over Kizer, Keenum & Flacco along with getting shredded on the ground in Chicago?

I am holding off until after the KC and Detroit games before having any confidence in the pass defense

Agreed. I'd say that they have the potential to be great again.

[st33lersguy]

Joshua Dobbs... will be awesome. I really think that with or without Ben, this team is going to represent the AFC in the next 2 Superbowls. I do not know if they will win 1, but I still like their chances. They have the best receivers, the best running back, a defense that is great again, and an OL that can match up with anyone. The defense and run game are what great teams are built around. I actually think that if they put Dobbs in now, they might be better off. Finally, while I would not agree with him on really anything at all, I WANT THE STEELERS TO SIGN COLIN KAEPERNICK. Imagine all the speed the team would have.... Bell, Brown, Bryant and Kaep. That is legendary Madden speed and would be a beautiful team to watch especially if the defense keeps it up.

1. This defense is great at shutting down weak offenses, they need to prove they can do the same against better offenses

2. I highly doubt Dobbs is ready to start now, and abruptly just starting Dobbs now would disrupt offensive team chemistry which is the last thing this offense needs right now

3. Literally all Kaepernick ever brought to the table was speed and mobility, and at the wrong side of 30, even that will diminish. Not to mention having to tailor the offense to suit what little ability he currently has

[pczach]

Joshua Dobbs... will be awesome. I really think that with or without Ben, this team is going to represent the AFC in the next 2 Superbowls. I do not know if they will win 1, but I still like their chances. They have the best receivers, the best running back, a defense that is great again, and an OL that can match up with anyone. The defense and run game are what great teams are built around. I actually think that if they put Dobbs in now, they might be better off. Finally, while I would not agree with him on really anything at all, I WANT THE STEELERS TO SIGN COLIN KAEPERNICK. Imagine all the speed the team would have.... Bell, Brown, Bryant and Kaep. That is legendary Madden speed and would be a beautiful team to watch especially if the defense keeps it up.


Wow.......just.......wow.:doh2:

[Renegade]

You lost me there........ completely.........
lol. Sorry, Sire. I would have lost myself too. What I meant to say was (should Ben continue to miss wide open receivers like he has done over the past number of weeks, should he continue to look at the rush before his reads) would the steelers really be better off? As someone else stated either during the baltimore game or maybe before, when you afraid of the rush, or afraid of getting hit, it is time to retire. That's what I was saying.

[Renegade]

Wow.......just.......wow.:doh2:
I know how strange I might have sounded, and I know I said a lot of things, but if we were able to win without Ben, wouldn't that take some pressure off? Really, ever since he got drafted, the Steelers have had a very tough time without him. Given his style of play and the fact that opposing teams and fans hate him for no reason and love to take pot shots at him every week, he has seen an amazing and horrific amount of injuries (every week I am concerned he is gonna be lost for the season), the Steelers organization should have had a second starter for a while now (Charlie Batch is a great example of what I'm looking for). Maybe the Kaepernick idea is not a good one. I was just thinking of how much fun that would be in a video game. Sorry, guys.


IF we actually did not trust our backups, and we do not think Dobbs is the future, and assuming Kaep is out of the question for one reason or another, I wouldn't mind seeing if Drew Brees wanted to put on a Steeler uniform for a year or 2. It would also be really funny if the run game and the defense (should it prove itself) would remain to be awesome and Tony Romo joined us and we beat the Cowboys in the superbowl. Lol Never gonna happen
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[pczach]

I know how strange I might have sounded, and I know I said a lot of things, but if we were able to win without Ben, wouldn't that take some pressure off? Really, ever since he got drafted, the Steelers have had a very tough time without him. Given his style of play and the fact that opposing teams and fans hate him for no reason and love to take pot shots at him every week, he has seen an amazing and horrific amount of injuries (every week I am concerned he is gonna be lost for the season), the Steelers organization should have had a second starter for a while now (Charlie Batch is a great example of what I'm looking for). Maybe the Kaepernick idea is not a good one. I was just thinking of how much fun that would be in a video game. Sorry, guys.


IF we actually did not trust our backups, and we do not think Dobbs is the future, and assuming Kaep is out of the question for one reason or another, I wouldn't mind seeing if Drew Brees wanted to put on a Steeler uniform for a year or 2. It would also be really funny if the run game and the defense (should it prove itself) would remain to be awesome and Tony Romo joined us and we beat the Cowboys in the superbowl. Lol Never gonna happen
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What I'm thinking is that the reason they have had a hard time without him is because he has been a great player. It is very hard to find elite talent at the quarterback position.

I guess I just don't understand how taking out the guy that has been the man and the main reason for your success over a long period of time makes the team better. Ben is going to play better, and he is still the best option by a mile to lead this team to the promised land.

Sure, they need to continue to develop talent at the quarterback position and continue to address the position, but Ben is the player that needs to be on the field for the immediate future and probably for the next couple years if he continues to want to play.

[DesertSteel]

lol. Sorry, Sire. I would have lost myself too. What I meant to say was (should Ben continue to miss wide open receivers like he has done over the past number of weeks, should he continue to look at the rush before his reads) would the steelers really be better off? As someone else stated either during the baltimore game or maybe before, when you afraid of the rush, or afraid of getting hit, it is time to retire. That's what I was saying.

Don't get carried away the the "missing wide open receivers" idea. That's overblown.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Based on wins over Kizer, Keenum & Flacco along with getting shredded on the ground in Chicago?

I am holding off until after the KC and Detroit games before having any confidence in the pass defense

I am with you there. But the talent is there and the pass rush is better than it has been in the past couple seasons. Those alone bode well, but I don't think they put a real good defensive game together yet and are building.

[Renegade]

What I'm thinking is that the reason they have had a hard time without him is because he has been a great player. It is very hard to find elite talent at the quarterback position.

I guess I just don't understand how taking out the guy that has been the man and the main reason for your success over a long period of time makes the team better. Ben is going to play better, and he is still the best option by a mile to lead this team to the promised land.

Sure, they need to continue to develop talent at the quarterback position and continue to address the position, but Ben is the player that needs to be on the field for the immediate future and probably for the next couple years if he continues to want to play.

The main reason the Steelers had success when Big Ben showed up was a beautiful run game and the defense, and a much better head coach who even though did not win more titles than tomlin, did not get trapped in the regular season. How many awful games did Ben play against baltimore but have enough time for a game winning drive because the defense forced turnovers and held the ravens to 10 or fewer (tomlin era)? Look at the first superbowl ben played in! He had the worst statistical performance by a winning qb in the superbowl. In the front of his carrier, he was carried by defense, now in the past couple of years he has been the one carrying the team. It is rare that towards the end, the individual is playing their best football. I just have a bad feeling that last year was his last exceptional year. he might need to be carried like Peyton Manning was in the last (in which case, are we really better off if young player wants to have a stupid awesome season). That was my point and I do not think that there is better QB on the roster. My scenario would be a classic what-if story that has been done before in nfl history. (The QB controversy during the 74 Steelers season) More recently with Kaepernick and Wilson.

While he has never got the attention that he rightly deserves or the elite status in the public eye (i do not know why), I feel as if when Ben retires, people will go, "He was a lot better than we gave him credit for." (Ben said this somewhere) Also, it is him and him alone that kept this team afloat in the more recent years of bad defense. Let the record show, unlike Eli, unlike Peyton, BIG BEN HAS NEVER PLAYED ON a LOSING TEAM.

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[Psycho Ward 86]

The main reason the Steelers had success when Big Ben showed up was a beautiful run game and the defense, and a much better head coach who even though did not win more titles than tomlin, did not get trapped in the regular season. How many awful games did Ben play against baltimore but have enough time for a game winning drive because the defense forced turnovers and held the ravens to 10 or fewer (tomlin era)? Look at the first superbowl ben played in! He had the worst statistical performance by a winning qb in the superbowl. In the front of his carrier, he was carried by defense, now in the past couple of years he has been the one carrying the team. It is rare that towards the end, the individual is playing their best football. I just have a bad feeling that last year was his last exceptional year. he might need to be carried like Peyton Manning was in the last (in which case, are we really better off if young player wants to have a stupid awesome season). That was my point and I do not think that there is better QB on the roster. My scenario would be a classic what-if story that has been done before in nfl history. (The QB controversy during the 74 Steelers season) More recently with Kaepernick and Wilson.

While he has never got the attention that he rightly deserves or the elite status in the public eye (i do not know why), I feel as if when Ben retires, people will go, "He was a lot better than we gave him credit for." (Ben said this somewhere) Also, it is him and him alone that kept this team afloat in the more recent years of bad defense. Let the record show, unlike Eli, unlike Peyton, BIG BEN HAS NEVER PLAYED ON a LOSING TEAM.

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what makes you say last year might be Ben's last exceptional year?

[fansince'76]

The main reason the Steelers had success when Big Ben showed up was a beautiful run game and the defense, and a much better head coach who even though did not win more titles than tomlin, did not get trapped in the regular season.

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/50370975/im-not-sure-what-you-mean.jpg

[teegre]

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/50370975/im-not-sure-what-you-mean.jpg


He means that Cowher never would have lost to the expansion Texans nor the expansion Jaguars.

[st33lersguy]

A hell no to Alex Smith. Only 2 years younger than Ben, and he isn't even that good of a QB. He needs a loaded supporting cast around him just to not look awful. They need to replace Ben with a young guy, not a guy only slightly younger than him, particularly one who has proven to be pedestrian at best

[Renegade]

He means that Cowher never would have lost to the expansion Texans nor the expansion Jaguars. Exactly. Cowher's teams, despite losing many, many playoff games, were much more prepared in the regular season than Tomlin's. Cowher, I think (by the way he built his teams), gave Ben a better chance to win. The game was not always on Ben's shoulders in the Cowher era. Under Tomlin... a much different story. More often than not, Ben has come through for Tomlin and covered Tomlin's mistakes. Ben's most talented years are behind him and I don't think that is really much of an argument against that. Of course, Ben could do it himself by destroying the rest of the teams he plays which I would love. As I said before, he is my favorite and he is very under-rated.

[43Hitman]

Exactly. Cowher's teams, despite losing many, many playoff games, were much more prepared in the regular season than Tomlin's. Cowher, I think (by the way he built his teams), gave Ben a better chance to win. The game was not always on Ben's shoulders in the Cowher era. Under Tomlin... a much different story. More often than not, Ben has come through for Tomlin and covered Tomlin's mistakes. Ben's most talented years are behind him and I don't think that is really much of an argument against that. Of course, Ben could do it himself by destroying the rest of the teams he plays which I would love. As I said before, he is my favorite and he is very under-rated.

Really? We're going to go down this road again? I'm really starting to wonder if these Cowher vs. Tomlin comparisons have anything to do with the fact that Tomlin is black. Lets face it head on. Tomlin has brought more success to this franchise that Cowher did. Oh and by they way, those great corners and linebackers that Cowher started with, those were Nolls players. So just stop with this bullshit that Cowher's teams were this or that. He aint coming back to coach so let it go already.

[teegre]

Exactly. Cowher's teams, despite losing many, many playoff games, were much more prepared in the regular season than Tomlin's. Cowher, I think (by the way he built his teams), gave Ben a better chance to win. The game was not always on Ben's shoulders in the Cowher era. Under Tomlin... a much different story. More often than not, Ben has come through for Tomlin and covered Tomlin's mistakes. Ben's most talented years are behind him and I don't think that is really much of an argument against that. Of course, Ben could do it himself by destroying the rest of the teams he plays which I would love. As I said before, he is my favorite and he is very under-rated.

I was being facetious (because, Cowher did indeed lose to both the Jaguars and the Texans in both of their respective inaugural seasons).

I apologize. I did not mean to start (yet another) “Tomlin vs. Cowher” debate.

Let’s not travel down this rabbit hole...

[86WARD]

I wouldn’t sleep on Alex Smith. He’s not the Alex Smith from the 49ers and early years with the Chiefs. A big knock on Smith has been that he can’t throw the long ball but he’s doing that this year. Andy Reid has been very good for Smith. Reid may be the best HC/QBC in the history of the NFL. Lol.

[SteelerFanInStl]

I wouldn’t sleep on Alex Smith. He’s not the Alex Smith from the 49ers and early years with the Chiefs. A big knock on Smith has been that he can’t throw the long ball but he’s doing that this year. Andy Reid has been very good for Smith. Reid may be the best HC/QBC in the history of the NFL. Lol.

Agreed. Anyone who thinks that Alex Smith "sucks" hasn't watched him play in the last few years.

[DesertSteel]

Alex Smith can win a Super Bowl.

[Mojouw]

Alex Smith can NOT win a SB.

From 2013 to 2015 he didn't hit a WR for a TD. That is multiple seasons! https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/9/28/9410487/kansas-city-chiefs-wide-receivers-touchdown-streak

This is the same Alex Smith who then spent large portions of 2015 NOT scoring TDs.

This is the same Alex Smith that was "leading" an offense that had some multiple quarter TD drought during the 2016 regular season and that continued for the playoffs. I can't find that stat right now either.

Look, just because he chucks it deep to Tyreek Hill now, doesn't mean that Alex Smith is winning a darn thing. Andy Dalton throws deep to AJ Green. Who wants him running your SB contender?

Smith and Dalton are the ultimate examples of guys that can play well enough to get you in contention but will never play well enough to take it home. Since we are on the subject of Andy Reid - this is known as the "Donovan McNabb" zone.

[Mojouw]

I know I should let it go, but I can't. Alex Smith is NOT A PLAYOFF WINNING QB. Take a look at this: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/alex/2017/2017-alex-early-results

"The new perception is really just highlight syndrome. Smith's standout plays this season have been on some deep balls in big situations, such as the game-winning touchdown pass to Kareem Hunt (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/55198/kareem-hunt) in New England (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/clutch-encounters/2017/clutch-encounters-kc-ne), or the scrambled throw he made to Albert Wilson (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/42572/albert-wilson) on Monday night against Washington (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/clutch-encounters/2017/clutch-encounters-week-4) on the game-winning drive. Those were plays in crunch time in games shown to a national audience. Smith also threw a 35-yard dagger to Chris Conley (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/43264/chris-conley) in the fourth quarter against the Eagles. So the fact that he is hitting these plays in memorable fashion has crafted the change in his story, but we're unlikely to see a big change in third-down ALEX for Kansas City's passing game until Patrick Mahomes takes over, which may not be for quite a while now."

The rest of the article basically does some data mining and math to say that Smith throws short of the sticks on 3rd downs more than anyone else in the league. The article then goes on to say this:

"Aaron Rodgers, Ben Roethlisberger (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/16792/ben-roethlisberger), and Cam Newton (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/27327/cam-newton) are basically the trio of ALEX mainstays, always ranking high year after year. Rodgers has been in the top six in every season since 2008. Roethlisberger has led the league three times since 2011, including each of the last two seasons. He just hasn't been converting as well to start this season."

So if you want a QB that throws to or beyond the sticks on 3rd downs to make a conversion - you need a "franchise" guy. If you want a guy that is going to take what the defense will give you and send out the punt team - grab Alex Smith.

[43Hitman]

I was being facetious (because, Cowher did indeed lose to both the Jaguars and the Texans in both of their respective inaugural seasons).

I apologize. I did not mean to start (yet another) “Tomlin vs. Cowher” debate.

Let’s not travel down this rabbit hole...

Agree, and I apologize for ranting. I just get tired of the Cowher/Tomlin comparisons.

[DesertSteel]

Alex Smith can NOT win a SB.

I believe he can.

[Mojouw]

I believe he can.

Based on what? I have posted multiple lines of evidence that show how Alex Smith is not good at converting third downs and he is also not good at throwing TDs that are not random acts of YAC.

What do you base the argument that a QB who can not convert third downs and throw TDs can win a SB on? Because if you have that answer, you need to quit whatever job your currently have and get a job coaching in the NFL. Because, you sir, are some sort of wizard!

[DesertSteel]

The big thing for me is that Alex is definitely a top 10 QB at this point of his career (probably 9-10). If we can replace Ben with a top 10 QB as a stop gap for a couple years, it's a win.

I'm not making him out to be Joe Montana but he's better than Flacco who won a super bowl.

[Mojouw]

The big thing for me is that Alex is definitely a top 10 QB at this point of his career (probably 9-10). If we can replace Ben with a top 10 QB as a stop gap for a couple years, it's a win.

Alex Smith is not a top 10 QB. His team wins in spite of him. Ignore the pretty highlights and look at the stats and game situations. He converts less 3rd downs than the majority of the rest of the league every single year. He throws less TDs to wideouts than any non-rookie QB year in and year out.

Andy Reid deserves some kind of award for making the playoffs year after year with McNabb and then Smith at QB. It is simply amazing. There is a reason that they got Mahomes.

[DesertSteel]

Alex Smith is not a top 10 QB. His team wins in spite of him. Ignore the pretty highlights and look at the stats and game situations. He converts less 3rd downs than the majority of the rest of the league every single year. He throws less TDs to wideouts than any non-rookie QB year in and year out.

Andy Reid deserves some kind of award for making the playoffs year after year with McNabb and then Smith at QB. It is simply amazing. There is a reason that they got Mahomes.

These rankings have him #3.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000856686/article/qb-index-week-5-tom-brady-unfair-alex-smith-on-fire

But I realize these guys don't know as much as people on this board.

[Mojouw]

These rankings have him #3.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000856686/article/qb-index-week-5-tom-brady-unfair-alex-smith-on-fire

But I realize these guys don't know as much as people on this board.

I don't know how to make this any clearer. Alex Smith does not convert third downs on a consistent and reliable basis.

From the same Football Outsiders piece as I used above. This is for 2017 so far:
"Smith has thrown eight passes on third-and-10 or longer, and only once did one of those passes travel more than 4 yards beyond the line of scrimmage."

This is a Qb who has been in the league as long as Aaron Rodgers. We know who he is at this point. He does NOT challenge defenses consistently on third downs and red zone situations. Alex Smith's main quality is that he doesn't turn the ball over. But if your offense gets behind the chains for any reason, he will not be able to reliably throw you out of that situation.

Go watch the last drive against the Cardinals in the SB again. Ben got the offense out of several situations that had terrible down and distance situations. Which one of those throws, much less the multiple throws needed to actually win the game, but which single throw do you really think Alex Smith consistently makes?

The Steelers lost the SB in 2010 in large part because Aaron Rodgers made some absolutely ridiculous throws in down and distance situations that favored the Steelers. I can think of two off the top of my head that I know Alex Smith never makes. Ever.

I would rather take 2-3 years of Dobbs than the false hope of mediocrity.

[DesertSteel]

When I watch Smith play this year, he's making good decisions and he's making plays at the right time. You can trust in your analytics all day but I know what my eyes are telling me. He'd be an excellent stop gap to keep us on a playoff run if Ben retires. Cousins would be better, but unlikely to happen. Same with Rivers. I'd even prefer Brees. But............. I'll take AS over Landry and Dobbs and also over a draft pick starting as a rookie. Who else do you have?

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I don't know how to make this any clearer. Alex Smith does not convert third downs on a consistent and reliable basis.

You need to understand that what convinces you does not convince everyone you tell.

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Go watch the last drive against the Cardinals in the SB again. Ben got the offense out of several situations that had terrible down and distance situations. Which one of those throws, much less the multiple throws needed to actually win the game, but which single throw do you really think Alex Smith consistently makes?

You're comparing him to 2008 Ben? Lol

[steelcityboyz]

That list is the worst i've seen yet. How is alex smith number 3 and Ben 10?

[DesertSteel]

That list is the worst i'be seen yet. How is alex smith number 3 and Ben 10?
Because it's based on 4 games and not career achievement. To listen to most on here, Ben isn't even near the top 10 this year.

[Born2Steel]

When I watch Smith play this year, he's making good decisions and he's making plays at the right time. You can trust in your analytics all day but I know what my eyes are telling me. He'd be an excellent stop gap to keep us on a playoff run if Ben retires. Cousins would be better, but unlikely to happen. Same with Rivers. I'd even prefer Brees. But............. I'll take AS over Landry and Dobbs and also over a draft pick starting as a rookie. Who else do you have?

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You need to understand that what convinces you does not convince everyone you tell.

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You're comparing him to 2008 Ben? Lol

Yes. His entire point is the 'elite QB factor'. 2008 Ben vs any QB you bring up. That is the conversation. We have just as good a chance winning a SB with Dobbs or Jones as we would with Alex Smith, maybe better. Smith can MANAGE an offense period, he is not an elite QB.

[Mojouw]

When I watch Smith play this year, he's making good decisions and he's making plays at the right time. You can trust in your analytics all day but I know what my eyes are telling me. He'd be an excellent stop gap to keep us on a playoff run if Ben retires. Cousins would be better, but unlikely to happen. Same with Rivers. I'd even prefer Brees. But............. I'll take AS over Landry and Dobbs and also over a draft pick starting as a rookie. Who else do you have?

Fine take Alex Smith and go one and done. That's useless in terms of moving the team forward.

I would rather pursue this plan:
1. Dobbs or whatever other promising youngster is on the roster when Ben hangs them up takes over.
2. Another QB is drafted.
3. A vet is signed in FA.
4. See what you have in Dobbs for a season or two. If he isn't "the guy" then keep drafting until you get "the guy".

I mean basically the same plan as every other team has when they have to replace a franchise guy. Look at the Cardinals. They have pursued the "make a run with a mediocre vet QB" strategy. What has that gotten them? A hodge-podge roster with no real identity and no clear path to serious contention until the figure out the QB situation.

The only other option is to sell off assets to get some one elses "back-up" or "developmental" QB you like more than your own. Outside of like 3 times ever, that basically doesn't work.

So draft or wander in the wilderness are really the only two outcomes I see. If that is how it is going to go down, I would rather keep rolling the dice on draft picks and young guys than mediocre at best veterans like Alex Smith.

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When I watch Smith play this year, he's making good decisions and he's making plays at the right time. You can trust in your analytics all day but I know what my eyes are telling me. He'd be an excellent stop gap to keep us on a playoff run if Ben retires. Cousins would be better, but unlikely to happen. Same with Rivers. I'd even prefer Brees. But............. I'll take AS over Landry and Dobbs and also over a draft pick starting as a rookie. Who else do you have?

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You need to understand that what convinces you does not convince everyone you tell.

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You're comparing him to 2008 Ben? Lol

Yes. 2008 Ben is what you need to win a SB. Alex Smith has never and will never play at that level.

A stat is a numerical fact. This is not something that I or anyone else should need to be convinced of. There are entire seasons of Alex Smith's long NFL career as a starting QB that demonstrate, over and over again, that he does not convert third downs on a consistent basis. When he does convert them, they are usually short passes that involve a large amount of YAC. This is not the type of offensive pattern that almost all of the SB winning teams in the last 10-15 years have shown.

Again, this is not some weird feeling or overly convoluted equation. These are facts based on game stats.

[DesertSteel]

Fine take Alex Smith and go one and done. That's useless in terms of moving the team forward.

I would rather pursue this plan:
1. Dobbs or whatever other promising youngster is on the roster when Ben hangs them up takes over.
2. Another QB is drafted.
3. A vet is signed in FA.
4. See what you have in Dobbs for a season or two. If he isn't "the guy" then keep drafting until you get "the guy".

I mean basically the same plan as every other team has when they have to replace a franchise guy. Look at the Cardinals. They have pursued the "make a run with a mediocre vet QB" strategy. What has that gotten them? A hodge-podge roster with no real identity and no clear path to serious contention until the figure out the QB situation.

The only other option is to sell off assets to get some one elses "back-up" or "developmental" QB you like more than your own. Outside of like 3 times ever, that basically doesn't work.

So draft or wander in the wilderness are really the only two outcomes I see. If that is how it is going to go down, I would rather keep rolling the dice on draft picks and young guys than mediocre at best veterans like Alex Smith.
The only problem with your list is that "Another," "Promising Youngster," and "A Vet" aren't real people. That's not a plan. I would be OK with a Smith to Dobbs transition after another year of Dobbs developing. No way he wins as many games as Smith in 2018 with the team we have around the QB.

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And if Smith wins the Super Bowl this year does that change your mind?

[Mojouw]

A final note, at least for now, I think this conversation is starting to get similar to an NBA tanking conversation.

Do you want your team to float around at the fringes of contention and make the playoffs as a 6 or 8 seed every season. Then maybe have a fiesty run deep into the playoffs every few years. Kinda like the recent Chicago Bulls teams.

Or do you want your team to identify what is needed to actually consistently win playoff games and championships and then go out and get those things? This is kinda what the "tanking" teams have been arguing they are doing.

For me, I would rather have 1-2 down years with a multi-year championship window on the other side of that then 5+ years of playoff contention with no realistic shot of a championship.

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The only problem with your list is that "Another," "Promising Youngster," and "A Vet" aren't real people. That's not a plan. I would be OK with a Smith to Dobbs transition after another year of Dobbs developing. No way he wins as many games as Smith in 2018 with the team we have around the QB.

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And if Smith wins the Super Bowl this year does that change your mind?

Sure they are. They are the 2018, 2019, etc crop of draft picks and free agents. Players become available every year.

If Smith won a SB this year, it still wouldn't change my mind. Doesn't matter because he won't.

[DesertSteel]

Yeah tanking based on your plan. Playoffs with a chance to go further by adding a viable QB who's a 2-time Pro Bowler. We have a very talented roster that would be a shame to waste in your 1-2 down year scenario.

[st33lersguy]

Alex Smith is a mediocre QB. He is on par with the long line of QBs between Ben and Bradshaw. He is not a viable option as a successor to Ben. They need to move on to a young guy when Ben hangs it up

[SteelerFanInStl]

Alex Smith is a mediocre QB. He is on par with the long line of QBs between Ben and Bradshaw. He is not a viable option as a successor to Ben. They need to move on to a young guy when Ben hangs it up

You need a stop gap between Ben and his successor. You can't just throw an inexperienced QB in there and expect good results. Alex Smith is plenty good enough to lead this team to the Super Bowl with the current surrounding cast.

I watched all of the Steeler QBs between Bradshaw and Ben. Not a single one of them was as good of a QB as Alex Smith. Neil O'Donnell was probably the best one and his stats pale in comparison to what Alex Smith has done while with KC.

This team doesn't need an Aaron Rodgers type of QB. The offense revolves around Le'Veon Bell, not the QB. Alex Smith is more than capable of doing that. He's also a lot more mobile than Ben and that adds another dimension to the offense. He's smart, makes good decisions and doesn't turn the ball over.

[Mojouw]

I get the argument. I really do. This is accepted NFL orthodoxy. Franchise guys retire. A sound stable veteran is given the keys to souped up roster and told to hold the line until the next franchise guy can be groomed. Sound theory. It has never worked.

Maybe Gannon but that's it. I mean mccown has carved a career being that guy. How many playoff games has he won? Henne? We can rattle these guys off. And we aren't going to find a SB victory.

A definition of madness is doing the same thing expecting new results.

Personally, I would rather try something different. At least that has the hope of new outcomes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[st33lersguy]

You need a stop gap between Ben and his successor. You can't just throw an inexperienced QB in there and expect good results. Alex Smith is plenty good enough to lead this team to the Super Bowl with the current surrounding cast.

I watched all of the Steeler QBs between Bradshaw and Ben. Not a single one of them was as good of a QB as Alex Smith. Neil O'Donnell was probably the best one and his stats pale in comparison to what Alex Smith has done while with KC.

This team doesn't need an Aaron Rodgers type of QB. The offense revolves around Le'Veon Bell, not the QB. Alex Smith is more than capable of doing that. He's also a lot more mobile than Ben and that adds another dimension to the offense. He's smart, makes good decisions and doesn't turn the ball over.

If a disappointing home playoff loss is what you are looking for, Alex Smith is your QB, if a Super Bowl is what you are looking for, Alex Smith is not what you are looking for. Plus if you are looking for a stop gap at QB, might as well go for one that will not cost as much as Smith. Plus there have been plenty of inexperienced/rookie QBs that have come in and won games, especially with a top tier running game and defense (Ben in 04 is just one example)

[Psycho Ward 86]

Ben's most talented years are behind him and I don't think that is really much of an argument against that.

I think there's plenty of argument against that. Ben is making uncharacteristic mistakes right now that dont seem rooted in physical debilitation at all. Maybe down the stretch (kind of like Brett Favre when he was with the Jets) but not yet.

[Mojouw]

LI just can’t help myself. I know I’m a broken record here so I’ll just apologize right off the bat.

But out I know basically everyone posting here watched that KC playoff game last year. What event happened in that game that made you sit back and say hey, that Smith can win a championship. Seriously.

[BurghBoy412]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this Alex Smith argument. Playoff pressure is way different than regular season pressure. Yes, Smith looks good so far this year in the regular season. Let's see if he can win a playoff game with time running out and 80 yds to drive. Completely different scenario than a regular season game. I don't believe Smith magically comes up with the guts to pull off game winning drives in a high pressure situation. Im willing to bet he reverts to good ole Alex Smith.

[Psycho Ward 86]

as far as passing/rushing metrics go, Smith has actually been fairly good in the playoffs: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SmitAl03.htm#all_passing_playoffs

that 2-4 record definitely looms large though. honestly everyone seems to underestimate the hell out of the chiefs every year that Smith has been there. so im not too weirded out by the fact that theyre starting to be talked up as perhaps way better than they actually are. Honestly if Peyton in his noodle arm mode can ride a wave to a superbowl he didnt truly earn, Smith could do it too. Yes, i realize Peyton had one of the best defenses in the past 2 decades, but Smith is actually playing good football and Kareem Hunt has thus far been playing out of his mind

[DesertSteel]

I say let's just roll with Landry Jones.

[Renegade]

Really? We're going to go down this road again? I'm really starting to wonder if these Cowher vs. Tomlin comparisons have anything to do with the fact that Tomlin is black. Lets face it head on. Tomlin has brought more success to this franchise that Cowher did. Oh and by they way, those great corners and linebackers that Cowher started with, those were Nolls players. So just stop with this bullshit that Cowher's teams were this or that. He aint coming back to coach so let it go already.

Really? Really? Being African-American has nothing to do with it. That is unbelievable that you would have brought that up. I am not racist. nor have I ever been. do not insinuate that. YOU DO NOT KNOW ME. Notice that it was me who thought maybe Josh Dobbs and Kaepernick could be good signal callers. How am I the racist one when all I said is that it is my opinion that Cowher was a better coach. I did not say Tomlin was a bad one. BY THE WAY, WHY DID WE HAVE SUCH A LENGTHY THREAD CALLED FIRE MIKE TOMLIN IF NONE OF US AT ANYTIME NEVER HAVE ANY DOUBTS???? This all started because I had an opinion that maybe some fun could happen if we played with the depth chart. I was half-kidding. ANd why do we even worry about next season? Let's enjoy this one since it could be Ben's last! I didn't mean to upset anyone. We all love the steelers and we all love Big Ben.

Renegade Out.

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I was being facetious (because, Cowher did indeed lose to both the Jaguars and the Texans in both of their respective inaugural seasons).

I apologize. I did not mean to start (yet another) “Tomlin vs. Cowher” debate.

Let’s not travel down this rabbit hole...

Sorry. I should have seen that coming. Either way, you make a wonderful point.

[SteelerFanInStl]

All of this talk about Alex Smith is moot anyway because I'm sure that some team will pay him a boatload of money to come play for them. I like him as a QB but the last thing I'd want the Steelers to do is to shell out a bunch of money for a stop gap QB.

[Born2Steel]

All of this talk about Alex Smith is moot anyway because I'm sure that some team will pay him a boatload of money to come play for them. I like him as a QB but the last thing I'd want the Steelers to do is to shell out a bunch of money for a stop gap QB.

Yes. That is perfectly in the wheelhouse of why QBs like Smith, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, Eli, etc...coming here do nothing positive for us. They will not be cheap at all, AND, AND, we would be in the same exact spot within a year or two. No such thing as 'stop gap'. You are either moving forward or getting left behind.

[DesertSteel]

Anyone interested in Teddy Bridgewater?

[86WARD]

No. None. Rather have Landry Jones play,

If the team were to decide to go with Smith, they would be doing so under the assumption he can win them a Super Bowl. He’s not a “stop gap” guy. They’d pay him thinking he’s winning a Super Bowl.

If you want to talk “stop gap guys” you need to talk Ryan Fitzpatrick, Case Keenum, Luke McCown type guys. You’re not getting a legit NFL starter as a “stop gap”.

[DesertSteel]

No. None. Rather have Landry Jones play,

Because of the injury or you think Jones is a better QB even before the injury?

[Born2Steel]

Because of the injury or you think Jones is a better QB even before the injury?

Speaking only for myself, I haven't seen enough of Bridgewater to like or dislike that idea. He has to be better than Landry Jones though. He's young enough to take a look at. If Bradford is the true starter in Minn, and Keenum plays well enough to earn the backup role, I will go back and look at film on him.

[steelreserve]

Yes. That is perfectly in the wheelhouse of why QBs like Smith, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, Eli, etc...coming here do nothing positive for us. They will not be cheap at all, AND, AND, we would be in the same exact spot within a year or two. No such thing as 'stop gap'. You are either moving forward or getting left behind.

That's exactly what "stopgap" means. You would be doing it to try to win a championship while the rest of the team is still good. IMO with a guy like Brees or Rivers that would be a possibility. But with someone like Jones or Dobbs we'd just be farting around while the core of the team got older and more expensive and therefore more difficult to keep together. Hopefully within a year or two we'd have a better plan for long-term succession - at least a Round 2 roll-the-dice guy or something, not a project guy who's obviously never going to amount to a starter.

I don't really care about the short-term expense; if you can win even ONE championship, that's worth it.

[DesertSteel]

That's exactly what "stopgap" means. You would be doing it to try to win a championship while the rest of the team is still good. IMO with a guy like Brees or Rivers that would be a possibility. But with someone like Jones or Dobbs we'd just be farting around while the core of the team got older and more expensive and therefore more difficult to keep together. Hopefully within a year or two we'd have a better plan for long-term succession - at least a Round 2 roll-the-dice guy or something, not a project guy who's obviously never going to amount to a starter.

I don't really care about the short-term expense; if you can win even ONE championship, that's worth it.

Exactly!

[Mojouw]

Here would be my plan. This plan assumes that the Steelers go to at least an AFC championship game this season.

1A. Go hard after Drew Brees if he makes it to FA. But be cautious. He will be 38 or 39. Not many guys play well at that age. Some sort of incentive laden 1-3 year thing where Brees gets to chase a ring and the Steelers get to not be tied to a decrepit old QB.

1B. Make a real effort to sign Bridgewater. Even if you can get Brees still try and make this happen. Again, don't sacrifice future cap reality to make it happen - Bridgewater isn't that good. But make an honest effort.

So that would mean that going in to the draft you have a well stocked roster, cap flexibility, and some version of this depth chart (best case/worst case):

Brees/signs elsewhere
Bridgewater/signs elsewhere
Dobbs/Dobbs
Jones/Jones

No matter which version you have, the key is not to panic when the draft comes around. Do your normal scouting and what not. Then sit and wait. DO NOT trade your entire 2019-2022 picks to go get a QB. That is how you gut a team forever. Now as the first round plays out, some player will drop. If it is a QB that you want, then either take them when they come to you, or trade up into the mid-teens to make sure you get him. That would be a trade that wouldn't take all of the Steelers draft picks for 2-3 years or something ridiculous. If you don't have a QB you want dropping into range, there will be a player that someone wants to get back into the first round for. Make that trade. Demand future 1st round picks. Accumulate assets.

Come out of the draft and start Dobbs for a season. Worst case, Dobbs is an unmitigated disaster and you have a high enough pick to get a QB. More likely you go somewhere between 7-9 and 9-7. That isn't usually going to get you a QB pick. But pair it with the 1st rounder you picked up by trading out the previous year and there you go...QB time. If for some reason you can't make that work -- trade back again, for still more future assets. Maybe with both picks.

I know this isn't a rosy picture and draft day trades are never guaranteed, but this kind of plan means that by either 2019 or 2020's draft, the Steelers should be able to have their pick of a franchise cornerstone. Combine that with the fact that I think Dobbs isn't really much worse (actually he is likely going to be far better) any vet caretaker the Steelers are really going to be able to trot out there. I don't see the downside.

FWIW, if the Steelers pick low in the first round (say 25+) this season even if Ben stays, I start this first round trade back plan. I keep doing it for as long as I can stockpile draft assets. Each season I don't use them to take a QB, then I try and roll them into the future. Then whenever it is that Ben retires, I can call my shot.

[steelreserve]

Here would be my plan. This plan assumes that the Steelers go to at least an AFC championship game this season.

1A. Go hard after Drew Brees if he makes it to FA. But be cautious. He will be 38 or 39. Not many guys play well at that age. Some sort of incentive laden 1-3 year thing where Brees gets to chase a ring and the Steelers get to not be tied to a decrepit old QB.

1B. Make a real effort to sign Bridgewater. Even if you can get Brees still try and make this happen. Again, don't sacrifice future cap reality to make it happen - Bridgewater isn't that good. But make an honest effort.

So that would mean that going in to the draft you have a well stocked roster, cap flexibility, and some version of this depth chart (best case/worst case):

Brees/signs elsewhere
Bridgewater/signs elsewhere
Dobbs/Dobbs
Jones/Jones

No matter which version you have, the key is not to panic when the draft comes around. Do your normal scouting and what not. Then sit and wait. DO NOT trade your entire 2019-2022 picks to go get a QB. That is how you gut a team forever. Now as the first round plays out, some player will drop. If it is a QB that you want, then either take them when they come to you, or trade up into the mid-teens to make sure you get him. That would be a trade that wouldn't take all of the Steelers draft picks for 2-3 years or something ridiculous. If you don't have a QB you want dropping into range, there will be a player that someone wants to get back into the first round for. Make that trade. Demand future 1st round picks. Accumulate assets.

Come out of the draft and start Dobbs for a season. Worst case, Dobbs is an unmitigated disaster and you have a high enough pick to get a QB. More likely you go somewhere between 7-9 and 9-7. That isn't usually going to get you a QB pick. But pair it with the 1st rounder you picked up by trading out the previous year and there you go...QB time. If for some reason you can't make that work -- trade back again, for still more future assets. Maybe with both picks.

I know this isn't a rosy picture and draft day trades are never guaranteed, but this kind of plan means that by either 2019 or 2020's draft, the Steelers should be able to have their pick of a franchise cornerstone. Combine that with the fact that I think Dobbs isn't really much worse (actually he is likely going to be far better) any vet caretaker the Steelers are really going to be able to trot out there. I don't see the downside.

FWIW, if the Steelers pick low in the first round (say 25+) this season even if Ben stays, I start this first round trade back plan. I keep doing it for as long as I can stockpile draft assets. Each season I don't use them to take a QB, then I try and roll them into the future. Then whenever it is that Ben retires, I can call my shot.

This is probably the most well thought out answer I have seen to this question. It's like taking the Browns rebuilding plan, only you start out being good, and you only need one or two pieces, so it might actually work.

I will ask you this, though: This year specifically, if one of the big 5 or 6 QB prospects is available and we're convinced he's "our guy" but we'd have to trade a future first-round pick to move up for him (single, not plural) ... do we do it? That has its own set of risks compared to the long-term plan, but also fewer unknowns that might complicate it (difficulty executing several trades in succession, what if there's a QB drought for five years, etc.)

[teegre]

I don't really care about the short-term expense; if you can win even ONE championship, that's worth it.

Wait a second... weren't you angry at Colbert/Khan for going "all in" to win ONE more SuperBowl in 2010-2012 (while The Beard, Troy, Clark, et al were still good).

[Mojouw]

This is probably the most well thought out answer I have seen to this question. It's like taking the Browns rebuilding plan, only you start out being good, and you only need one or two pieces, so it might actually work.

I will ask you this, though: This year specifically, if one of the big 5 or 6 QB prospects is available and we're convinced he's "our guy" but we'd have to trade a future first-round pick to move up for him (single, not plural) ... do we do it? That has its own set of risks compared to the long-term plan, but also fewer unknowns that might complicate it (difficulty executing several trades in succession, what if there's a QB drought for five years, etc.)

Definitely. If I'm in charge and that scenario happens. No questions asked. Say my own 2018 1st round + my 2019 first round pick to get "our guy" then yeah. No doubt, make it happen.

I am only against it when you are sending multiple first and other round picks over several years. Every team that has done that, even if the QB works out, has ended up with an unbalanced and shallow roster. But one pick? Certainly.

The big unknown in all of this is the Steelers scouts when it comes to evaluating QBs. They have to get it right. You get one shot at this. Miss and all hell breaks loose.

[teegre]

What is the asking price for Andrew Luck?

[Born2Steel]

That's exactly what "stopgap" means. You would be doing it to try to win a championship while the rest of the team is still good. IMO with a guy like Brees or Rivers that would be a possibility. But with someone like Jones or Dobbs we'd just be farting around while the core of the team got older and more expensive and therefore more difficult to keep together. Hopefully within a year or two we'd have a better plan for long-term succession - at least a Round 2 roll-the-dice guy or something, not a project guy who's obviously never going to amount to a starter.

I don't really care about the short-term expense; if you can win even ONE championship, that's worth it.

No, not stop gap. You would be in the exact same position of LOOKING for a replacement QB. The cycle of moving from one stop gap to another stop gap. It's hard to get out of that cycle once you're in it. Ask most other team GMs.

[Mojouw]

What is the asking price for Andrew Luck?

Do you think they would even take that call? The Colts I mean. We have seen in his absence that the team is a complete disaster without Luck.

Assume they are willing to part with him -- what would it take? A 6 year vet with a major shoulder injury on a terrible team. But still a front-line QB being traded in his prime. Has that ever happened? Not exactly, but I dug around and found some potential benchmarks.

This article kinda walks through them: http://thebiglead.com/2016/12/30/history-of-quarterbacks-traded-for-first-round-picks/

After looking through this, I think that the price would end up something along the lines of both 2018 and 2019 first round picks, a second or third round pick from one of those years, and some sort of other "sweetener" - likely a player from the top 30 on the roster.

Even that could end up being highway robbery. Luck on some version of the current Steelers roster? He would set the league on fire.

As much as I argued against doing exactly this kind of thing in my draft scenario. Here I know what I am getting. 6+ years of a really really good QB. I would do the above outlined deal. Maybe try and get the Colts to take most of the picks in 2017 so I can take my medicine all at once?

[steelreserve]

Wait a second... weren't you angry at Colbert/Khan for going "all in" to win ONE more SuperBowl in 2010-2012 (while The Beard, Troy, Clark, et al were still good).

Not that, but the rash of poor decisions in the aftermath of it - in particular the rash of ill-conceived restructures that dragged it out after the fact. Maybe they didn't realize the window with those particular players was over, but we screwed ourselves over pretty badly cap-wise for a couple key years.

Now, we kind of sidestepped the issue in the end because our 2008-09 draft classes were so abysmal there was no one worth re-signing when they came around. But getting out of your cap problems for that reason is hardly a "win."

The other part of that ... at that point, whatever happened in the twilight of the big defensive players' careers, we still knew we had Ben at a high level for most of the coming decade. Betting big on Willie Colon or Lamarr Woodley was not a necessary risk. Change the problem to no QB but the rest of the team is solid, and betting big on a QB makes a lot more sense.



Definitely. If I'm in charge and that scenario happens. No questions asked. Say my own 2018 1st round + my 2019 first round pick to get "our guy" then yeah. No doubt, make it happen.

I am only against it when you are sending multiple first and other round picks over several years. Every team that has done that, even if the QB works out, has ended up with an unbalanced and shallow roster. But one pick? Certainly.

The big unknown in all of this is the Steelers scouts when it comes to evaluating QBs. They have to get it right. You get one shot at this. Miss and all hell breaks loose.

Well, that's the same issue with either approach. We trade up to draft a guy and he's a bust, we're screwed. We stockpile to draft a guy later and he's a bust, we're also screwed. (Less impact in terms of draft picks, more in terms of the rest of the roster degrading over time.) You definitely want it not to miss.



What is the asking price for Andrew Luck?

Too much unless it's free, if you ask me. I have a hard time trusting that he'd hold up for a season, better offensive line or not.

[86WARD]

Because of the injury or you think Jones is a better QB even before the injury?

I was being more sarcastic then serious but to be serious, I don’t want any part of Bridgewater.

[Born2Steel]

Do you think they would even take that call? The Colts I mean. We have seen in his absence that the team is a complete disaster without Luck.

Assume they are willing to part with him -- what would it take? A 6 year vet with a major shoulder injury on a terrible team. But still a front-line QB being traded in his prime. Has that ever happened? Not exactly, but I dug around and found some potential benchmarks.

This article kinda walks through them: http://thebiglead.com/2016/12/30/history-of-quarterbacks-traded-for-first-round-picks/

After looking through this, I think that the price would end up something along the lines of both 2018 and 2019 first round picks, a second or third round pick from one of those years, and some sort of other "sweetener" - likely a player from the top 30 on the roster.

Even that could end up being highway robbery. Luck on some version of the current Steelers roster? He would set the league on fire.

As much as I argued against doing exactly this kind of thing in my draft scenario. Here I know what I am getting. 6+ years of a really really good QB. I would do the above outlined deal. Maybe try and get the Colts to take most of the picks in 2017 so I can take my medicine all at once?

I assume they will have a top5 pick in the draft. They have Luck already, so if they make a move like drafting another highly ranked QB, one of those guys will be for trade or sale. Typically, it's the older, worn out model. I would think they would move in the draft for picks to shore up the OLine and defense though. Some always take the pick, some use the pick to get more picks.
But yes, I would take Luck if that could happen.

[43Hitman]

How do we know if Luck can make it more than a season with out a major injury? Don't get me wrong, I think he is a phenomenal quarterback but I would be very concerned about his durability. In another thread I did advocate for us to go after him, but the more I thought about it and what it would cost to get him, the more I thought that he may not be worth it. I would rather go with Mojouw's stock draft pick plan, even that's a risk, but I think it's a more calculated one.

[SteelerFanInStl]

I'm not a fan of Bridgewater. I'd rather go with Dobbs than sign him. Bridgewater has never shown me that he can be an NFL QB. Add the knee injury to that and it's just a big negative.

[86WARD]

How do we know if Luck can make it more than a season with out a major injury? Don't get me wrong, I think he is a phenomenal quarterback but I would be very concerned about his durability.

Same thing could be said about Ben. If they got Luck, he is the future. There is no stop gap. He’s the guy for 5-6 more years and then we are in the same situation.

[43Hitman]

Same thing could be said about Ben. If they got Luck, he is the future. There is no stop gap. He’s the guy for 5-6 more years and then we are in the same situation.
Right, but we already have Ben, it's not costing us anything for him to be on this roster other than his contract. Personally, and I really like Luck, but right now I go with Dobbs for a year or two while

we stock pile picks and make the plunge that way. Luck could bounce back from this current injury and play like we all know he can, and I can change my mind. Again. :lol:

[Born2Steel]

Just based on what we DO KNOW, after winning back to back SBs this season and next, we will probably have a down season or 2 while Dobbs catches us back up.

[teegre]

Do you think they would even take that call? The Colts I mean. We have seen in his absence that the team is a complete disaster without Luck.

Assume they are willing to part with him -- what would it take? A 6 year vet with a major shoulder injury on a terrible team. But still a front-line QB being traded in his prime. Has that ever happened? Not exactly, but I dug around and found some potential benchmarks.

This article kinda walks through them: http://thebiglead.com/2016/12/30/history-of-quarterbacks-traded-for-first-round-picks/

After looking through this, I think that the price would end up something along the lines of both 2018 and 2019 first round picks, a second or third round pick from one of those years, and some sort of other "sweetener" - likely a player from the top 30 on the roster.

Even that could end up being highway robbery. Luck on some version of the current Steelers roster? He would set the league on fire.

As much as I argued against doing exactly this kind of thing in my draft scenario. Here I know what I am getting. 6+ years of a really really good QB. I would do the above outlined deal. Maybe try and get the Colts to take most of the picks in 2017 so I can take my medicine all at once?

We agree.

1) There are rumors out there that Luck is on the trading block. Who knows how true it is, where there is smoke...

2) Trading multiple R1 picks for an unknown (rookie) is risky. Trading for a known (veteran) player is far less risky... and worth the asking price.

3) This is (mostly) in response to steelreserve: As far as injuries go, Luck’s injuries are from him getting obliterated by unblocked linebackers (as opposed to Sam Bradford, who gets injured when he sneezes). Of course, he is “damaged goods” and may never be the same. But...

4) ...this reminds me a LOT of the Drew Brees situation.
—shoulder injury question marks
—dysfunctional organization
—GM with an ego

5) This year’s R1 & R2 (because, one of those would have been used on a QB anyway), plus next year’s R1 & R2 (because, in most scenario’s we’d have to trade two R1’s for any QB). Thus, essentially, we get a proven QB for two “extra” R2 picks (versus an unproven QB without those picks).

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Joshua Dobbs... will be awesome. I really think that with or without Ben, this team is going to represent the AFC in the next 2 Superbowls. I do not know if they will win 1, but I still like their chances. They have the best receivers, the best running back, a defense that is great again, and an OL that can match up with anyone. The defense and run game are what great teams are built around. I actually think that if they put Dobbs in now, they might be better off. Finally, while I would not agree with him on really anything at all, I WANT THE STEELERS TO SIGN COLIN KAEPERNICK. Imagine all the speed the team would have.... Bell, Brown, Bryant and Kaep. That is legendary Madden speed and would be a beautiful team to watch especially if the defense keeps it up. And to think we all laughed at this. Great Post!

[st33lersguy]

It would be best if Ben retired after this season because mentally, he retired BEFORE this season

[Shoes]

It would be best if Ben retired after this season because mentally, he retired BEFORE this season

That seems to be the reality after 5 games.

[SteelerFanInStl]

I think it's time for Ben to retire and Haley to be fired.

[86WARD]

He seems to be on that same road that Cowher was on after he won Super Bowl XL.

[Mojouw]

I think it's time for Ben to retire and Haley to be fired.

Haley didn't do a thing wrong today. His plays and schemes had open WRs and holes for RBs.

That's all that an OC can do. Ben missed multiple open guys and throw 2 TDs to the other team where he just didn't see defenders.

Also, Haley did not choose to repeatedly throw into double and triple coverage.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

It would be best if Ben retired after this season because mentally, he retired BEFORE this season He has been mentally retired since 2010.

[pczach]

Haley didn't do a thing wrong today. His plays and schemes had open WRs and holes for RBs.

That's all that an OC can do. Ben missed multiple open guys and throw 2 TDs to the other team where he just didn't see defenders.

Also, Haley did not choose to repeatedly throw into double and triple coverage.



You keep saying he made bad mental decisions.

One of the pick 6's was deflected at the LOS by a defensive lineman.

The other was thrown high and batted by the corner from behind and caught by another trailing defender. None of his interceptions were because he didn't see a defender.

The first interception it looked like his arm may have been hit and it took something off the throw. McDonald didn't come back for the ball and didn't fight for the ball.

The one that went to a defender was when JuJu fell down or was pulled and pushed down on his route. He was looking for him to cross in front of the safety.

The last interception Ben forced because they needed two scores quickly after the TD was called back because of a holding penalty. The cover man came off of another receiver to make a play on the ball. It wasn't a misread in coverage.

He didn't play well at all, but it was just one of those days for him. He didn't throw any right into the chest of defenders because he didn't see them or misread the coverages. Not one.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Haley didn't do a thing wrong today. His plays and schemes had open WRs and holes for RBs.

That's all that an OC can do. Ben missed multiple open guys and throw 2 TDs to the other team where he just didn't see defenders.

Also, Haley did not choose to repeatedly throw into double and triple coverage. Agreed and some people can't face the truth it's Ben. Kinda how we first heard Santa isn't real.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Haley didn't do a thing wrong today. His plays and schemes had open WRs and holes for RBs.

That's all that an OC can do. Ben missed multiple open guys and throw 2 TDs to the other team where he just didn't see defenders.

Also, Haley did not choose to repeatedly throw into double and triple coverage.
How was Haley's play calling in the red zone? 3 times, 3 fgs. This is normal for him. This is probably a different game if we score TDs.

Pass heavy offense even early in the game instead of feeding Bell against a very good pass D and poor run D. Yea, he was great.

[BurghBoy412]

Agreed and some people can't face the truth it's Ben. Kinda how we first heard Santa isn't real.Wait. What. Santa isn't real???

[Mojouw]

You keep saying he made bad mental decisions.

One of the pick 6's was deflected at the LOS by a defensive lineman.

The other was thrown high and batted by the corner from behind and caught by another defender. None of his interceptions were because he didn't see a defender.

The first interception it looked like his arm may have been hit and it took something off the throw. McDonald didn't come back for the ball and didn't fight for the ball.

The one that went to a defender was when JuJu fell down or was pulled and pushed down on his route. He was looking for him to cross in front of the safety.

The last interception Ben forced because they needed two scores quickly after the TD was called back because of a holding penalty. The cover man came off of another receiver to make a play on the ball. It wasn't a misread in coverage.

He didn't play well at all, but it was just one of those days for him. He didn't throw any right into the chest of defenders because he didn't see them or misread the coverages. Not one.

I should explain myself a bit further then. The first INT was when you chose to challenge one of the BEST CBs in football covering your 2nd TE with questionable hands.

The third INT was when you choose to attempt to hit your #1 WR in triple coverage - again with an excellent CB in the area.

Tipped ball or not on the first pick six, Ben did not look like a QB who saw the underneath defender.

An out and up on a goal to go play from the 5? Where was AB going to go up to? The beer stand?

Ben looked at AB on almost every play. If any of the rest of these guys are ANY good, someone else had to be kinda-sorta open.

Yeah it was "one of those days" but Ben made bad/questionable decisions all game.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Wait. What. Santa isn't real??? Nope sux but it's the truth.

[BurghBoy412]

How was Haley's play calling in the red zone? 3 times, 3 fgs. This is normal for him. This is probably a different game if we score TDs.

Pass heavy offense even early in the game instead of feeding Bell against a very good pass D and poor run D. Yea, he was great.I'm so tired of the empty backfield on the goal line. Haley didn't lose this game but he definitely didn't help win it either. Defenses start questioning themselves when they give up TD's. FG's don't have the same mental effect. You have to put up 6 when you get in the red zone.

[AtlantaDan]

917116074088452098

And props to Ben for his first 300 yard passing game of the season :thumbsup:

Roethlisberger's 312 yards Sunday marked his first 300-yarder in his last in 11 regular-season games

http://www.espn.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/25466/pick-6s-and-boo-birds-ben-roethlisberger-and-steelers-offense-hit-dangerous-low

[st33lersguy]

I'm so tired of the empty backfield on the goal line. Haley didn't lose this game but he definitely didn't help win it either. Defenses start questioning themselves when they give up TD's. FG's don't have the same mental effect. You have to put up 6 when you get in the red zone.

Haley helps losing games with empty backfield shotgun on obvious runs, running plays that don't work over and over again, and not exploiting team weaknesses

[Mojouw]

How was Haley's play calling in the red zone? 3 times, 3 fgs. This is normal for him. This is probably a different game if we score TDs.

Pass heavy offense even early in the game instead of feeding Bell against a very good pass D and poor run D. Yea, he was great.

I'm gonna give Haley an "incomplete" because while it is entirely possible his red zone and elsewhere play-calling sucked, we will never know. His starting QB likely couldn't have executed turning around and handing it off 35 times today.

[BurghBoy412]

Is Bryant only capable of 3 routes? Seriously, it's either bubble screen, deep, or short cross. I don't see him ever running the middle of the field. Why?

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Hopefully this loss all on Ben will put a fire under his ass and still think this team is that talented we can win a Superbowl with him. He's got to want it though.

- - - Updated - - -


Is Bryant only capable of 3 routes? Seriously, it's either bubble screen, deep, or short cross. I don't see him ever running the middle of the field. Why? Bryant does not look like the beast he was before the suspension and another worthy topic.

[Mojouw]

Hopefully this loss all on Ben will put a fire under his ass and still think this team is that talented we can win a Superbowl with him. He's got to want it though.

- - - Updated - - -

Bryant does not look like the beast he was before the suspension and another worthy topic.

One can only hope that Bryant was simply still recovering from the same flu/sickness that has laid others on the roster low and will be much better going forward.

Wonder if Ben was sick as well and no one said anything?

[BurghBoy412]

I just can't wait for the Big Ben pity party this week. I'll bring the popcorn.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

JUJU looks like the second best wr on the team and not Bryant.

- - - Updated - - -


I just can't wait for the Big Ben pity party this week. I'll bring the popcorn. Like my post I'll take Bradshaw over him always!

[BurghBoy412]

One can only hope that Bryant was simply still recovering from the same flu/sickness that has laid others on the roster low and will be much better going forward.

Wonder if Ben was sick as well and no one said anything?If he was sick we'll never know. Although it would provide Ben with his excuse and avoid his necessary look in the mirror. Good call Moj

[AtlantaDan]

If he was sick we'll never know.

We'll never know? Yep - Ben has always played it close to the vest when it comes to his physical condition? :chuckle:

He might show up at his postgame media appearance with a bottle of NyQuil

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

We'll never know? Yep - Ben has always played it close to the vest when it comes to his physical condition? :chuckle:

He might show up at his postgame media appearance with a bottle of NyQuil Funny there isn't many flu's or colds going around.

[pczach]

I think everybody wants to blame one thing, but it was many things offensively.

Ben was terrible and he was very unlucky.

Munchak gets all the credit when the offensive line plays well, but nobody is saying a thing when they suck ass.

The offensive line is not playing well for long stretches.

The coaches aren't making adjustments that turn things around by exploiting what defenses are doing on the field.

There is no team chemistry on offense. Are the outbursts and antics dividing this locker room and this team?

The Martavis Bryant impact has been nearly zero. Other than AB, no other WR is a consistent threat.

I thought the defense played well until the two pick sixes. After that.....not so much. It seems that once an offense gets a few cracks in the run defense, the dam breaks and they can't stop anybody. It that a "want" thing, is it technique, or is it something schematic that coaches aren't adjusting to?

No running game at all once they get inside the 10 yard line. Either Ben is changing the call pre-snap, or Haley just forgets about the run. Also, they have the best RB in football and they don't leave him in the backfield to threaten the run to keep the defense honest, or to block for Ben and possibly be a safe checkdown if nothing else is there. Also, still no play action. It's all a complete mystery to me.

There are a lot of problems to address.

[Shoes]

We'll never know? Yep - Ben has always played it close to the vest when it comes to his physical condition? :chuckle:

He might show up at his postgame media appearance with a bottle of NyQuil

:lol:

[Mojouw]

I think everybody wants to blame one thing, but it was many things offensively.

Ben was terrible and he was very unlucky.

Munchak gets all the credit when the offensive line plays well, but nobody is saying a thing when they suck ass.

The offensive line is not playing well for long stretches.

The coaches aren't making adjustments that turn things around by exploiting what defenses are doing on the field.

There is no team chemistry on offense. Are the outbursts and antics dividing this locker room and this team?

The Martavis Bryant impact has been nearly zero. Other than AB, no other WR is a consistent threat.

I thought the defense played well until the two pick sixes. After that.....not so much. It seems that once an offense gets a few cracks in the run defense, the dam breaks and they can't stop anybody. It that a "want" thing, is it technique, or is it something schematic that coaches aren't adjusting to?

No running game at all once they get inside the 10 yard line. Either Ben is changing the call pre-snap, or Haley just forgets about the run. Also, they have the best RB in football and they don't leave him in the backfield to threaten the run to keep the defense honest, or to block for Ben and possibly be a safe checkdown if nothing else is there. Also, still no play action. It's all a complete mystery to me.

There are a lot of problems to address.

I will grudgingly agree with all of that. It is a reasoned and logical summary of things.

But for one of those rare times, I find myself wanting to be contrary to just blame everything on Ben R sucking.

[st33lersguy]

I think everybody wants to blame one thing, but it was many things offensively.

Ben was terrible and he was very unlucky.

Munchak gets all the credit when the offensive line plays well, but nobody is saying a thing when they suck ass.

The offensive line is not playing well for long stretches.

The coaches aren't making adjustments that turn things around by exploiting what defenses are doing on the field.

There is no team chemistry on offense. Are the outbursts and antics dividing this locker room and this team?

The Martavis Bryant impact has been nearly zero. Other than AB, no other WR is a consistent threat.

I thought the defense played well until the two pick sixes. After that.....not so much. It seems that once an offense gets a few cracks in the run defense, the dam breaks and they can't stop anybody. It that a "want" thing, is it technique, or is it something schematic that coaches aren't adjusting to?

No running game at all once they get inside the 10 yard line. Either Ben is changing the call pre-snap, or Haley just forgets about the run. Also, they have the best RB in football and they don't leave him in the backfield to threaten the run to keep the defense honest, or to block for Ben and possibly be a safe checkdown if nothing else is there. Also, still no play action. It's all a complete mystery to me.

There are a lot of problems to address.

Also, aside from Jesse James' 2 TDs in week 1, the impact from the TE position is non-existent

[pczach]

I should explain myself a bit further then. The first INT was when you chose to challenge one of the BEST CBs in football covering your 2nd TE with questionable hands.

The third INT was when you choose to attempt to hit your #1 WR in triple coverage - again with an excellent CB in the area.

Tipped ball or not on the first pick six, Ben did not look like a QB who saw the underneath defender.

An out and up on a goal to go play from the 5? Where was AB going to go up to? The beer stand?

Ben looked at AB on almost every play. If any of the rest of these guys are ANY good, someone else had to be kinda-sorta open.

Yeah it was "one of those days" but Ben made bad/questionable decisions all game.


Yeah, this isn't an attempt to exonerate Ben of any blame. I'm simply trying to explain that the reasons people are giving for the interceptions are not correct. You can clearly see that he was forcing it in certain situations. Also, Bryant looked like he was running in quicksand all day, and Haley seemed to always have him running 5-yard outs all game. It was just an odd game all the way around.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

I will grudgingly agree with all of that. It is a reasoned and logical summary of things.

But for one of those rare times, I find myself wanting to be contrary to just blame everything on Ben R sucking. You should and think that is the worse game I seen of Ben. Sadly he has a few of them the last couple years. That was the worse. Two pick 6's in a row and 5 ints. Landry wouldn't have been that bad.

[BurghBoy412]

We'll never know? Yep - Ben has always played it close to the vest when it comes to his physical condition? :chuckle:

He might show up at his postgame media appearance with a bottle of NyQuilLike I said it would be a perfect scapegoat.

[Born2Steel]

5 Ints in one game, at home. Pitiful. You cannot have that many turnovers against ANY team and expect to win by anything other than pure luck.

You guys talking about benching Ben now, what is your plan exactly? Let Jones take us the rest of the way? Start the Josh Dobbs era? Think on this one fact first. ALL, every single one, of Ben's INTs today came from the deep ball. Intermediate deep to deep. We, meaning this forum, talked all week about imposing our run game and stopping theirs if we wanted to win this one. So instead we throw the ball 60 times. This game plan stunk. AB is still the ONLY Wr we have worth his piss. Bell and Conner should have gotten 25 carries apiece today. No way you come in here and put a beat down on us like the Jags just did. Poor game today goes to the coaches and the game plan. Simply put, we put this one into their hands to lose.

[SteelerFanInStl]

I'm so tired of the empty backfield on the goal line. Haley didn't lose this game but he definitely didn't help win it either. Defenses start questioning themselves when they give up TD's. FG's don't have the same mental effect. You have to put up 6 when you get in the red zone.

I am too. It's ridiculous. This has been Haley's MO since he got here. I hate his play calling. I'm just done with him.

- - - Updated - - -


I think everybody wants to blame one thing, but it was many things offensively.

Ben was terrible and he was very unlucky.

Munchak gets all the credit when the offensive line plays well, but nobody is saying a thing when they suck ass.

The offensive line is not playing well for long stretches.

The coaches aren't making adjustments that turn things around by exploiting what defenses are doing on the field.

There is no team chemistry on offense. Are the outbursts and antics dividing this locker room and this team?

The Martavis Bryant impact has been nearly zero. Other than AB, no other WR is a consistent threat.

I thought the defense played well until the two pick sixes. After that.....not so much. It seems that once an offense gets a few cracks in the run defense, the dam breaks and they can't stop anybody. It that a "want" thing, is it technique, or is it something schematic that coaches aren't adjusting to?

No running game at all once they get inside the 10 yard line. Either Ben is changing the call pre-snap, or Haley just forgets about the run. Also, they have the best RB in football and they don't leave him in the backfield to threaten the run to keep the defense honest, or to block for Ben and possibly be a safe checkdown if nothing else is there. Also, still no play action. It's all a complete mystery to me.

There are a lot of problems to address.

I agree with all of this and the point in another post about the TE. We've gotten very little from the TE position since Heath retired and it's been missed.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

I am too. It's ridiculous. This has been Haley's MO since he got here. I hate his play calling. I'm just done with him.

- - - Updated - - -



I agree with all of this and the point in another post about the TE. We've gotten very little from the TE position since Heath retired and it's been missed. Ben has better OL And weapons then he ever had. Heath in his prime would not matter and Ben mentally sux and been that way for a while.

[AtlantaDan]

Ben has better OL And weapons then he ever had. Heath in his prime would not matter and Ben mentally sux and been that way for a while.

The OL has underperformed, the TEs are mediocre, Eli Rogers has gone to the bench, and Bryant so far is a shell of the player who torched Denver in the divisional round of the playoffs before missing a year

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

The OL has underperformed, the TEs are mediocre, Eli Rogers has gone to the bench, and Bryant so far is a shell of the player who torched Denver in the divisional round of the playoffs before missing a year Of course there is other issues going on but some positive to like JuJu being a great choice and the D playing decent untill Ben gives the game away. Ben is playing horrible and bottom line!

[SteelerFanInStl]

Ben has better OL And weapons then he ever had. Heath in his prime would not matter and Ben mentally sux and been that way for a while.

LOL, you take a comment about the TE position being poor and turn it into a Ben hate post. There's plenty of those on this forum already that you can comment on. No need to comment on something that's irrelevant.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

LOL, you take a comment about the TE position being poor and turn it into a Ben hate post. There's plenty of those on this forum already that you can comment on. No need to comment on something that's irrelevant. Because him missing Heath won't matter. he has more weapons now and worse I ever seen him.

[Lady Steel]

Funny there isn't many flu's or colds going around.

Actually, there are a lot of colds and allergies going around in western PA right now. I'm not saying that is Ben's problem, however.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Actually, there are a lot of colds and allergies going around in western PA right now. I'm not saying that is Ben's problem, however. Maybe and Ben is giving every Steeler fan the sh!ts!

[Shoes]

Actually, there are a lot of colds and allergies going around in western PA right now. I'm not saying that is Ben's problem, however.



Maybe and Ben is giving every Steeler fan the sh!ts!


:lol:

[Born2Steel]

Because him missing Heath won't matter. he has more weapons now and worse I ever seen him.

What weapons? List them out. AB, Bell. Same as he's had before. Bryant has done nothing to be called a weapon at this point. Eli has been benched for JuJu, who... did he play today? TEs are awful at best. Why are we not running over everyone? With this vaunted OLine, RBs, and Munch, we shouldn't have to throw but maybe 5 passes a game. I know that's ridiculous, but you get my point. I think Ben has seen enough, honestly. He knows what he has to work with. Pile it all on Ben. He'll take it and shoulder all the blame. Reality is, the game plan today, to attack the strength of the defense, was a waste of everyone's time. Haley thought he knew better than conventional wisdom dictates. Ben ran the game plan. This was the result today. 5 INTs, anyone need more proof? The defense gave up nothing. Yet we fell behind. This was a HoF QB running today's game plan to perfection. I put this game directly on the coaches. Good job guys.

[teegre]

What weapons? List them out. AB, Bell. Same as he's had before. Bryant has done nothing to be called a weapon at this point. Eli has been benched for JuJu, who... did he play today? TEs are awful at best. Why are we not running over everyone? With this vaunted OLine, RBs, and Munch, we shouldn't have to throw but maybe 5 passes a game. I know that's ridiculous, but you get my point. I think Ben has seen enough, honestly. He knows what he has to work with. Pile it all on Ben. He'll take it and shoulder all the blame. Reality is, the game plan today, to attack the strength of the defense, was a waste of everyone's time. Haley thought he knew better than conventional wisdom dictates. Ben ran the game plan. This was the result today. 5 INTs, anyone need more proof? The defense gave up nothing. Yet we fell behind. This was a HoF QB running today's game plan to perfection. I put this game directly on the coaches. Good job guys.

Except...

Gannon mentioned (and Twitter is “confirming”) that BB audibled out of many of the run plays... specifically, the 3rd-&-goal where he threw to AB (when AB ran that weird route).

So, in a nutshell, when BB saw single coverage on AB, he would change the play from a run to a pass. It’s logical, except it simply didn’t work.

[Born2Steel]

Except...

Gannon mentioned (and Twitter is “confirming”) that BB audibled out of many of the run plays... specifically, the 3rd-&-goal where he threw to AB (when AB ran that weird route).

So, in a nutshell, when BB saw single coverage on AB, he would change the play from a run to a pass. It’s logical, except it simply didn’t work.

Of course BB made some audibles. But....22 pass plays were called in the first half. Whether Haley or BB, 22 pass plays against the #2 pass defense. That's just dumb. I cannot believe they were mostly audibles either. This was a dumb game plan and this is the result of that game plan. Ben was PERFECT today on the short passes. PERFECT.

Okay...Ben went 10 of 12 within 15 yards of LOS. That was the money play. We made plays, moved the chains, etc. We(forum) talked about this all week. How is it the game plan went so wrong today?

[teegre]

Of course BB made some audibles. But....22 pass plays were called in the first half. Whether Haley or BB, 22 pass plays against the #2 pass defense. That's just dumb. I cannot believe they were mostly audibles either. This was a dumb game plan and this is the result of that game plan. Ben was PERFECT today on the short passes. PERFECT.

My point is: who really knows.

That’s a positive. Of course, he is also 4/20 on deep passes. (That stat was from early in the game; I’m sure it got worse by the end of the game.)

[Born2Steel]

My point is: who really knows.

That’s a positive. Of course, he is also 4/20 on deep passes.

Yes. Exactly. Our defense gave up ZERO yards in the 3rd qtr. Yet we allowed 14 pts, against, in the 3rd qtr. Why? The deep ball against the Jags defense.

Don't get me wrong. I'm still on board for #7, but this stupidity today pisses me off.

[teegre]

Yes. Exactly. Our defense gave up ZERO yards in the 3rd qtr. Yet we allowed 14 pts, against, in the 3rd qtr. Why? The deep ball against the Jags defense.

Don't get me wrong. I'm still on board for #7, but this stupidity today pisses me off.

What got me was when they finally decided to run the bell (and stick with it for more than one attempt), Bell got into a groove and drove them down the the red-zone. Then, pass, pass, pass, FG.

[Mojouw]

Well the defense gave up zero yards because they were never on the field.

Ben's INTS were not on deep passes. I think only the 5th one was all that far past the sticks. Both of the pick sixes were relatively short.


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[Born2Steel]

What got me was when they finally decided to run the bell (and stick with it for more than one attempt), Bell got into a groove and drove them down the the red-zone. Then, pass, pass, pass, FG.

The OLine has not been as dominant as advertised.(Injuries, fine). A dominant WR corps.(AB is the ONLY WR that looks like he knows how to play the game). Improved run game with the drafting of Conner.(Yet to prove Conner was worth the pick, Bell has been pedestrian). I said all offseason we would need to put up 30pts to make up for the points allowed by our defense. Today, the defense played great. Obviously NFL teams will make plays, but we played great on defense. This offense is not good. The play calls are not good. Today's gameplan was awful and embarrassing.

- - - Updated - - -


Well the defense gave up zero yards because they were never on the field.

Ben's INTS were not on deep passes. I think only the 5th one was all that far past the sticks. Both of the pick sixes were relatively short.


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2 INTs were over 20 yards downfield, the rest were 10-15 yards downfield. The ones that went for scores are irrelevant. The defense did it's job.The offense cost us today.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Except...

Gannon mentioned (and Twitter is “confirming”) that BB audibled out of many of the run plays... specifically, the 3rd-&-goal where he threw to AB (when AB ran that weird route).

So, in a nutshell, when BB saw single coverage on AB, he would change the play from a run to a pass. It’s logical, except it simply didn’t work.

I think that sometimes BB just has too much faith in AB. He's simply not going to win every 1 on 1 battle and BB forces the ball in there.

This team's not going to get back to what it was at the end of last year until they get back to the run dominant offense that they used last year. Get the ball to Bell and mix in Conner. Run time off the clock to give the D some rest.

[teegre]

I think that sometimes BB just has too much faith in AB. He's simply not going to win every 1 on 1 battle and BB forces the ball in there.

This team's not going to get back to what it was at the end of last year until they get back to the run dominant offense that they used last year. Get the ball to Bell and mix in Conner. Run time off the clock to give the D some rest.

Bingo. There’s having faith in your receiver, and then there’s thinking your receiver can beat a corner with an “out & up” from the five-yard line.

Case in point:
First-&-goal from the five. Zero attempts by Bell. :doh:

[Mojouw]

Bingo. There’s having faith in your receiver, and then there’s thinking your receiver can beat a corner with an “out & up” from the five-yard line.

Case in point:
First-&-goal from the five. Zero attempts by Bell. :doh:

I'm usually first in line to defend the coaching and strategy against initial over-reactions. This morning, I am totally on the over-reaction bandwagon. How the hell do Tomlin and Haley let Ben get away with audibling into that call? By all accounts that how that went down. It is just a stupid call for that down and distance in that area of the field.

Eli Rogers drops one punt, that is the only publicly acknowledged sin that Rogers committed, and he has been banished to outer nowhere. Ben looks like some high school kid stole his jersey and brought his Madden 2018 playsheet into the game. But he gets a continual pass?

[AtlantaDan]

I'm usually first in line to defend the coaching and strategy against initial over-reactions. This morning, I am totally on the over-reaction bandwagon. How the hell do Tomlin and Haley let Ben get away with audibling into that call? By all accounts that how that went down. It is just a stupid call for that down and distance in that area of the field.

Eli Rogers drops one punt, that is the only publicly acknowledged sin that Rogers committed, and he has been banished to outer nowhere. Ben looks like some high school kid stole his jersey and brought his Madden 2018 playsheet into the game. But he gets a continual pass?

A lot easier to banish Eli than the QB - unless your starting QB gets hurt (a not unlikely possibility for Ben) or there is a plausible alternative there is nowhere to go - Tomlin is stuck for the rest of this season

“All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." - George Orwell, Animal Farm

(https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2207778)

[DesertSteel]

Are we now hoping for a Ben injury to save the season?

[Born2Steel]

Are we now hoping for a Ben injury to save the season?

Ummm......NO! What???

[Mojouw]

A lot easier to banish Eli than the QB - unless your starting QB gets hurt (a not unlikely possibility for Ben) or there is a plausible alternative there is nowhere to go - Tomlin is stuck for the rest of this season

“All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." - George Orwell, Animal Farm

(https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2207778)

Yeah. I know. But I think there are things that can be done a bit "behind the scenes" that are short of a benching, but may get a point across. Maybe take away some of Ben's liberty to audible to any old play he feels like. Maybe on Wednesdays he doesn't practice, but he has to do extra film rep with a coach and go through scenarios and reads.

Like I said, I know it is an over-reaction and the Steelers are stuck. They have designed an offense from almost the ground up to be run by Ben R and the system is catered to his supposed strengths. If he no longer has those strengths, then there is not really much that can be done about it.

[Renegade]

If this really is the end of the Ben, and it might not be, he has had a wonderful career. Let me just get out some frustration. It makes me sick when I see Ben take horrible shots each and every week. It makes me furious that for some reason each pass rusher in the NFL feels like they want to end Ben's career. I saw Ben take some rough shots the last 2 weeks and some below the knee and NO FLAG WAS THROWN. Brady got gently knocked down on Thursday against the Buccs and there was a 15 yard penalty. I could understand if he did not have the heart anymore. The league, in this respect, appears to be against him and he never got the credit he deserved during his great seasons. One more thing: I hate when I see loser teams like the Raiders and Chiefs (from several years ago when they were bad), would always play very hard against the Steelers, injure Big Ben, their fans would celebrate, the Ravens fans around me would say he is an actor and a crybaby, and then those same loser teams would lay down and die for the Ravens, Browns, Patriots, and Cowboys. It is hypocrisy at its finest.

[fansince'76]

I would rather pursue this plan:
1. Dobbs or whatever other promising youngster is on the roster when Ben hangs them up takes over.
2. Another QB is drafted.
3. A vet is signed in FA.
4. See what you have in Dobbs for a season or two. If he isn't "the guy" then keep drafting until you get "the guy".

You forgot: 5. Repeat for 20 years. :chuckle:

[ALLD]

Mark my words, the end of Ben's career will be very similar to the end of the NFL. A very nice run, a decline and then over the cliff.

MLB is only beginning to recover now from the strike in 1994 and that's because of the complete greediness and ineptitude of the NFL owners. People still need their sports fix.

Dobbs is not it and do I need to mention Jones? The next great Steelers QB may not even be in college yet.

[DesertSteel]

End of the NFL? Lolz

[AtlantaDan]

End of the NFL? Lolz

Do not want to hijack the thread but nothing lasts forever - horse racing and boxing once were big sports

Not the end but it has peaked - TV pays the bills and ratings are off for a variety of reasons in addition to the anthem protest sideshow, including a society that is increasingly disinclined to sit for 3 consecutive hours to watch anything every week - advertisers are getting nervous

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nfl-advertisers-nervous-amid-protests-ratings-dip-161454056.html

Once a test for CTE is perfected that does not require the patient to be dead, high schools, colleges and the pros are going to have some nettlesome ethical/liability issues to address even if the player (or his parent(s) where consent is required) is willing to take the risk of playing after testing positive.

Ben has spoken openly about his concerns on what sort of long term health problems he may face. I think that is one factor in why he considers getting out - that is only going to increase once players can be diagnosed as having brain damage that is progressive even if they quit taking hits to the head. If your star players are leaving mid-career because they have made enough $$$ and want to try to protect their health that will be another problem.

[Born2Steel]

As of today, I think we are seeing the final season of BB, Eli, and Cutler.

[AtlantaDan]

Yeah. I know. But I think there are things that can be done a bit "behind the scenes" that are short of a benching, but may get a point across. Maybe take away some of Ben's liberty to audible to any old play he feels like.

True

In the 2008 America's Game, Ben said he was told to dial it back and just not lose the game after midseason home losses to the Giants (4 INTs) and Colts (3 INTs).

That might work again, assuming the Steelers can get next day delivery of 2008 model replicants of Troy and Deebo.

[DesertSteel]

True

In the 2008 America's Game, Ben said he was told to dial it back and just not lose the game after midseason home losses to the Giants (4 INTs) and Colts (3 INTs).

That might work again, assuming the Steelers can get next day delivery of 2008 model replicants of Troy and Deebo.Ben was still a pup in 2008. I'm not sure it would work telling him that now.

[Mojouw]

True

In the 2008 America's Game, Ben said he was told to dial it back and just not lose the game after midseason home losses to the Giants (4 INTs) and Colts (3 INTs).

That might work again, assuming the Steelers can get next day delivery of 2008 model replicants of Troy and Deebo.

Shhhhhhhh!!! Steeldude will hear you. He's like Candyman - only about mentioning Deebo or outside linebackers!

[AtlantaDan]

Ben was still a pup in 2008. I'm not sure it would work telling him that now.

Probably so - my guess is the conversation was not just held with coaches but vets such as Farrior also "shared their views" - no player with that clout these days

[ALLD]

I suppose a retire Tomlin thread should be next.

[AtlantaDan]

I suppose a retire Tomlin thread should be next.

Tomlin can "retire," immediately get hired by the Colts, then give interviews that the Steelers betrayed him - worked for Arians

[Mojouw]

True

In the 2008 America's Game, Ben said he was told to dial it back and just not lose the game after midseason home losses to the Giants (4 INTs) and Colts (3 INTs).

That might work again, assuming the Steelers can get next day delivery of 2008 model replicants of Troy and Deebo.

Maybe we can get this guy to be the next coach?

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--TLC9D_yY--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/yrlzp9zmmh9dwjfq2udz.jpg

[teegre]

Maybe we can get this guy to be the next coach?

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--TLC9D_yY--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/yrlzp9zmmh9dwjfq2udz.jpg

A tortoise?... what’s that???

[tube517]

Tomlin can "retire," immediately get hired by the Colts, then give interviews that the Steelers betrayed him - worked for Arians

Tomlin can then reveal the times he had parties from his car....oh wait:

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s---T9c35-T--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/18unv30g4j8f6jpg.jpg :chuckle:

[Mojouw]

A tortoise?... what’s that???

Well that made my night!


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