What I Think I Know After 2 Weeks

[Mojouw]

The 2017 Steelers remain very much a work in progress, but even after two relatively uneven performances, I feel that I "know" some things about this team.

1. AB is not human. Xavier Rhodes is about as good as CB as you are gonna find, and AB still reeled in some ridiculous catches. Rhodes significantly slowed AB, but he simply can not be totally covered by any single player.

2. If Martavis Bryant gets even with the defender, it is either a PI call or a completion the overwhelming majority of the time. Despite the conventional wisdom that 2 of the 3 possible outcomes of a forward pass are bad - Bryant may make that only 1 bad outcome. Bonus sub thing I know about Bryant - NFL defenders need to redefine their angles and depths on him. At least twice this past Sunday, the safety had Bryant coming towards him at an angle and still wasn't able to give enough ground to make the play. Incredible.

3. I totally forgot that Cam Heyward can take over a game. Just plum forgot.

4. Father Time has not defeated James Harrison, but he might've out-schemed him. I think that Harrison simply can not, at 39, do what Butler has the young OLBers doing. The depth of coverage drops and the extent that Dupree, Watt, and Chickillo have all been following receivers laterally is unprecedented for recent Steelers OLB. Harrison and Moats are not who you want doing those things - so they aren't.

5. Oh, my - those OLB's. Dupree looks primed to take a step towards just terrorizing opposing tackles. Watt is better than advertised. Chickillo, well he is clearly more than "just a guy". Never so happy to be wrong.

6. Mike Hilton has taken Gay's job. Snap counts don't lie.

7. Secondary remains a work in progress. But the pass rush is going to help them out.

8. The depth of weapons on offense is simply staggering. Watson is the third best RB on the team. Think about that for a moment. Eli Rogers may be the 4th or 5th best WR on the team. A former 1st round pick at WR can't even get a helmet on game day.

9. Jesse James looks like he spent every waking moment of the off-season moving iron to build his new jacked arms. Doesn't seem to matter. He can't block. Run. Pass. Whatever. James is a very poor blocker. It hurts the scheme and I hope that McDonald can get up to speed.

10. The youth and speed up and down this roster is really impressive and comes through on game day.

11. Competent special teams? I'm not ready for that.

12. Mike Tomlin and his emotions make really odd game day decisions and this will never change. 47 yard field goal? Sure! Oops penalty - PUNT! Hey, another penalty and a 47 yard field goal? NOPE! PUNT! Take the points Mike, take the points.

BONUS NFL OBSERVATION:
1. September football is bad football.
2. Anyone still want to tell me that Kapernick isn't a better QB than Tolzien, Bortles, Hoyer, Savage, Kizer, Watson, and a few other scattered "quarterbacks" that we have been subjected to the first few games. There is some historically bad QB play out there!

[polamalubeast]

Great thread

For point 9,11 and 12 are too much under the radar

Jesse James is terrible, I hope that McDonald is going to be our number 1 TE soon.

Our special team has been incredible since the pre season and Danny Smith deserves credit.

And what a terrible decision to not take the FG at the beginning of the fourth quarter to take the lead by 2 TD.

[DesertSteel]

Jesse James is far from terrible. By the end of the year he will be in consideration for the Pro Bowl. Not saying he'll make it, but his numbers will rival those who do.

[Hawkman]

Nice post.

As far as James, yes he is poor in the blocking department, but his hands may be the best of the TEs.
Except for Rogers returning punts, I'm liking most of what I've seen of STs.
As for punting instead of going for three, I was OK with that decision......especially after the results, (I may be the only one who thinks that).

[polamalubeast]

Jesse James is far from terrible. By the end of the year he will be in consideration for the Pro Bowl. Not saying he'll make it, but his numbers will rival those who do.

OVERRATED!

It's ridiculous...Last year James had not 6 yards per target...It's still the same things for this year. (68 yards on 13 targets)

How many of his catches are for 10 yards or more?

Seriously, his stats will never be compared to Kelce or Gronk ...

[Hawkman]

Jesse James is far from terrible. By the end of the year he will be in consideration for the Pro Bowl. Not saying he'll make it, but his numbers will rival those who do.


Yeah, I don't think we will see a TE like Heath for a while. He could line up anywhere. For the longest time we used TEs mostly for blocking, but Heath was so versatile and sure handed, that Ds had to always account for him, or get burned. I know Ben must miss him a ton.

- - - Updated - - -


OVERRATED!

It's ridiculous...Last year James had not 6 yards per target...It's still the same things for this year. (68 yards on 13 targets)

How many of his catches are for 10 yards or more?

Seriously, his stats will never be compared to Kelce or Gronk ...

We lose that first game without those two sure handed grabs in the end zone.

[DesertSteel]

OVERRATED!

It's ridiculous...Last year James had not 6 yards per target...It's still the same things for this year. (68 yards on 13 targets)

How many of his catches are for 10 yards or more?

Seriously, his stats will never be compared to Kelce or Gronk ...
So there's two great TEs. The other 30 suck?

- - - Updated - - -



We lose that first game without those two sure handed grabs in the end zone.
EXACTLY!

[Hawkman]

If we can get 10+ Rezone TDs from James this season I don't care how many ten+ yard catches he has. I really would like to see his blocking improve......maybe he can sit in on some OL sessions and get some schooling from Munch.

[polamalubeast]

We lose that first game without those two sure handed grabs in the end zone.

The first TD, I give credit, but his 2nd TD, it was a great play call by Haley



So there's two great TEs. The other 30 suck?




You said you would not be surprised if James would be considered for the pro bowl, it's ridiculous since only 2 TE by conference are at the pro bowl and his stats will never be close to those of Kelce and Gronk.

Also, James is not a caliber starter TE in the NFL, I'm sorry if my standards are higher.

[ALLD]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYCB0qtwIxE

[DesertSteel]

You said you would not be surprised if James would be considered for the pro bowl, it's ridiculous since only 2 TE by conference are at the pro bowl and his stats will never be close to those of Kelce and Gronk.

Also, James is not a caliber starter TE in the NFL, I'm sorry if my standards are higher.
Yes, higher than Colberts, Tomlin and Haley. I'd rather have Gronk or Kelce too. Can't have everything.

[polamalubeast]

Yes, higher than Colberts, Tomlin and Haley. I'd rather have Gronk or Kelce too. Can't have everything.



I agree, the steelers just need a average TE.

I hope McDonald will be the answer.

[Mojouw]

Yes, higher than Colberts, Tomlin and Haley. I'd rather have Gronk or Kelce too. Can't have everything.
I'd settle for someone who can actually block. James is like a cross between a traffic cone and a marshmallow back there.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/V1nbxs1VibOlW/200_s.gif

[DesertSteel]

I'd settle for someone who can actually block. James is like a cross between a traffic cone and a marshmallow back there.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/V1nbxs1VibOlW/200_s.gif
I'd be happy with a $12M running back that averaged more than 3 YPC.

[tube517]

2. If Martavis Bryant gets even with the defender, it is either a PI call or a completion the overwhelming majority of the time. Despite the conventional wisdom that 2 of the 3 possible outcomes of a forward pass are bad - Bryant may make that only 1 bad outcome. Bonus sub thing I know about Bryant - NFL defenders need to redefine their angles and depths on him. At least twice this past Sunday, the safety had Bryant coming towards him at an angle and still wasn't able to give enough ground to make the play. Incredible.



Spot on, Mojouw.

Get your shades and go fart on a hippo because Tomlin pretty much said the same thing shutting up the reporter in the press conference today. :applaudit:

[Mojouw]

Spot on, Mojouw.

Get your shades and go fart on a hippo because Tomlin pretty much said the same thing shutting up the reporter in the press conference today. :applaudit:

Obviously, I am Mike Tomlin. Just Like Teegre is Ozzie Newsome.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--T5yDw9SJ--/18zby405wm7jnjpg.jpg

[BurghBoy412]

I'd settle for someone who can actually block. James is like a cross between a traffic cone and a marshmallow back there.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/V1nbxs1VibOlW/200_s.gif
I wonder if David Johnson is still available?

[teegre]

1. AB makes the impossible look easy.

2. Once he puts it all together...

3. Wait until Tuitt starts garnering more attention, and Heyward stops being double-teamed.

4. I'm not going to discuss this part... until I learn how to post memes.

5. The potential to be the best LB corps since 1994.

6. :nod: :nod: :nod:

7. See #5 (change "LB" to "DB")

8. Tomlin is to offense as Billick was to defense. (Their schematic forté isn't actually their strength in the draft.)

9. I'll take 16 TDs... and 160 yards. :lol:

10. Plus, they are the tallest team in the NFL.

11. I can't comprehend these words.

12. At my house, the consensus was that since the punt was on the 1-yard-line AND since the defense was on fire, the odds of a safety outweighed the "gimme" FG.

[BurghBoy412]

I'd be happy with a $12M running back that averaged more than 3 YPC.The price goes up to $15 mil next season.

[Hawkman]

1. AB makes the impossible look easy.

2. Once he puts it all together...

3. Wait until Tuitt starts garnering more attention, and Heyward stops being double-teamed.

4. I'm not going to discuss this part... until I learn how to post memes.

5. The potential to be the best LB corps since 1994.

6. :nod: :nod: :nod:

7. See #5 (change "LB" to "DB")

8. Tomlin is to offense as Billick was to defense. (Their schematic forté isn't actually their strength in the draft.)

9. I'll take 16 TDs... and 160 yards. :lol:

10. Plus, they are the tallest team in the NFL.

11. I can't comprehend these words.

12. At my house, the consensus was that since the punt was on the 1-yard-line AND since the defense was on fire, the odds of a safety outweighed the "gimme" FG.

It would be much easier (for some of us) if you would include the original post along with yours, so I don't have to keep scrolling up and down to see which one you're answering.:heh:

[BurghBoy412]

I'm sure glad you're able to say the secondary is a "work in progress." Because with Ross Cockrell the Secondary was a lost cause.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I responded in another thread but its still an interesting matter of discussion. I respectively disagree with #4. Harrison's still got it in all facets of his game: http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/06/james-harrison-rated-best-cover-olb-2016/

Vance Mcdonald needs to become an X factor for us. It will change absolutely everything if he does. Ben has never had a move tight end that could stay healthy and Vance has shown a propensity for having all-purpose talent, and that was with a shitty team. He could not have fallen into the lap of a better environment to reach his potential. If healthy, I predict he tops the depth chart and becomes a major reason for winning games by Week 8

[pczach]

Obviously, I am Mike Tomlin. Just Like Teegre is Ozzie Newsome.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--T5yDw9SJ--/18zby405wm7jnjpg.jpg



Just like Kevin Durant is also @ILoveKD on twitter. #SameGuy

[vasteeler]

It would be much easier (for some of us) if you would include the original post along with yours, so I don't have to keep scrolling up and down to see which one you're answering.:heh:

Haha ...I had to do the same thing

[teegre]

It would be much easier (for some of us) if you would include the original post along with yours, so I don't have to keep scrolling up and down to see which one you're answering.:heh:

Sorry, man.
I figured it would have made for an uber-long post.

[Mojouw]

I'd be happy with a $12M running back that averaged more than 3 YPC.

That's the line of the day!

[DesertSteel]

The price goes up to $15 mil next season.
I'll take a $700K Conners and a 2nd-3rd round pick.

[Dwinsgames]

as for Jesse James ... let me say this

when you have AB and Bryant on the outside and Eli in the slot James will see a TON 1 on 1s vs Linebackers ..... advantage Outlaw

teams will now have to respect Bryant again and its going to show very soon in production via the TE ( whomever is in the game as long as they make the catch )

cant double everyone but your going to want to double AB and Bryant , leaving 1 on 1 coverage on Eli vs a nickle backer and a LB on the TE and RB .... smells like mismatches to me

[Shoes]

On your point 9, I'd add that I know why James has a problem with YAC. I've noticed this before, many times after he catches the ball he stands in place and stomps his feet up & down like he's stomping grapes and doesn't move forward. Pretty strange, maybe he's a grape stomper in the off season. I'll have to see if I can get a gif or two of this.

[BurghBoy412]

as for Jesse James ... let me say this

when you have AB and Bryant on the outside and Eli in the slot James will see a TON 1 on 1s vs Linebackers ..... advantage Outlaw

teams will now have to respect Bryant again and its going to show very soon in production via the TE ( whomever is in the game as long as they make the catch )

cant double everyone but your going to want to double AB and Bryant , leaving 1 on 1 coverage on Eli vs a nickle backer and a LB on the TE and RB .... smells like mismatches to me
The answer to our TE conundrum is still in Wisconsin. I know it's early.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij-aatDdBpQ&t=96s

[Psycho Ward 86]

On your point 9, I'd add that I know why James has a problem with YAC. I've noticed this before, many times after he catches the ball he stands in place and stomps his feet up & down like he's stomping grapes and doesn't move forward. Pretty strange, maybe he's a grape stomper in the off season. I'll have to see if I can get a gif or two of this.

i dont know about that but the past 2 seasons he's always been really slow to secure the ball and move upfield immediately if thats what you mean. this dude needs to learn to average more than single digit YPC. that shit isnt going to cut it in the NFL

[Dwinsgames]

The answer to our TE conundrum is still in Wisconsin. I know it's early.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij-aatDdBpQ&t=96s

above is a huge part of the reason TJ Watt plays Linebacker

[Shoes]

i dont know about that but the past 2 seasons he's always been really slow to secure the ball and move upfield immediately if thats what you mean. this dude needs to learn to average more than single digit YPC. that shit isnt going to cut it in the NFL

It is indeed, once he catches the ball in traffic he takes choppy steps like he's not sure in what direction he should go.

[polamalubeast]

as for Jesse James ... let me say this

when you have AB and Bryant on the outside and Eli in the slot James will see a TON 1 on 1s vs Linebackers ..... advantage Outlaw

teams will now have to respect Bryant again and its going to show very soon in production via the TE ( whomever is in the game as long as they make the catch )

cant double everyone but your going to want to double AB and Bryant , leaving 1 on 1 coverage on Eli vs a nickle backer and a LB on the TE and RB .... smells like mismatches to me

James is not good enough to make a big play when James is against a slow linebacker

It's a big problem and hopefully McDonald is going to be the answer soon

[teegre]

On your point 9, I'd add that I know why James has a problem with YAC. I've noticed this before, many times after he catches the ball he stands in place and stomps his feet up & down like he's stomping grapes and doesn't move forward. Pretty strange, maybe he's a grape stomper in the off season. I'll have to see if I can get a gif or two of this.

:applaudit: I'm never not going to have that vision in my head when James catches the ball & proceeds to stammer around.

Really though, James is a pretty good red-zone weapon, specifically at the goal line... in that he is tall, and more importantly, he doesn't have to run anywhere after the catch if he's already standing in the end zone. I'm not trying to be funny; I'd send him into the end zone on every red-zone snap.

Now, if McDonald could be the guy to play TE between the 20s, our TE problem would be solved.

[Mojouw]

as for Jesse James ... let me say this

when you have AB and Bryant on the outside and Eli in the slot James will see a TON 1 on 1s vs Linebackers ..... advantage Outlaw

teams will now have to respect Bryant again and its going to show very soon in production via the TE ( whomever is in the game as long as they make the catch )

cant double everyone but your going to want to double AB and Bryant , leaving 1 on 1 coverage on Eli vs a nickle backer and a LB on the TE and RB .... smells like mismatches to me

This is clearly going to be the blueprint to defend the team moving forward.

Teams are going to let them throw to Rogers and James all day. I will say this - James' terrible blocking blows up more plays than his lack of YAC does.

[tube517]

It is indeed, once he catches the ball in traffic he takes choppy steps like he's not sure in what direction he should go.

You're right and he looks too overcautious in securing the catch?? I don't know but he's damn slow to turn upfield and yac for him is me saying "Yack! Jessie move!"

(BTW, I brought grapes for lunch/snack to work so there's that)

[steelreserve]

James is obviously a completely different player from Heath Miller, but he doesn't have to be the same. He's been a pleasant surprise at getting open over the middle and at securing tough catches. We just have to get used to the fact that where he catches the ball is pretty much going to be where he is tackled. Don't throw him a 6-yard dump when you need 10 yards because you won't get it. The way he runs after the catch is a carbon copy of Matt Spaeth - turtle up and shuffle backwards or sideways for a couple yards until you get blown up. But he is much better than Spaeth at getting open, and will actually catch a 15-yard pass over the middle if you send him there and throw it to him. He's not a big-play type of guy, but we can work with this.

I do like the new look of the defense and the trend of the secondary. Young and boldly aggressive is better than old and slow, or young and dumb. I said before the season that I'd rather keep one of the younger guys with upside than Gay who is a known quantity and a declining one, because even though Gay had more experience, there was no significant difference in their level of play. Glad to see that is coming to pass, although we will have a decision to make once Sutton comes back from IR; I actually hope we keep him over Gay at that point.

As for the bonus Kaepernick question - despite the bad QB play around the league, there is still no compelling reason for any team to hire him. Perhaps he'd be an upgrade over the Kizers and Hoyers of the world, but what's that going to do? Take a 3-13 team to 5-11? What good is that? Maybe he's better than some of the backups on non-horrible teams (Tolzien), but what's that going to do? Bring him in cold during the season and have him try to wing it, gamble that he's somehow going to win the game or two before the real QB is back, and then ... ?

And this is all assuming that he's actually in a place where he's focused first and foremost on playing professional football, to a degree that's going to allow him to not only miantain his level but catch up with everybody else. Based on the available evidence, that's a toss-up being generous (even before all the other bullshit, he was not exactly known as a film-room junkie, locker room leader, or even a team-first kind of guy). You'll notice how I haven't even mentioned the "non-football" part of it, which is that in order to even attempt these marginal on-field gains, table stakes is alienating somewhere between a quarter and a half of your fan base, who regardless of what you think of their political opinions, are still your customers. As an owner, that's not taking a political stand or "blackballing," that's just called not shooting yourself in the foot by pissing off a significant number of the people who are willing to pay you money.

Not even high-risk, high-reward - more like low reward, guaranteed trouble. Much as the media is finger blasting their shitbox over Kaepernick trying to get him a job, there are about a hundred non-opinion, non-political, simply football or business reasons why it's a dumb idea.

[Psycho Ward 86]

James is obviously a completely different player from Heath Miller, but he doesn't have to be the same. He's been a pleasant surprise at getting open over the middle and at securing tough catches. We just have to get used to the fact that where he catches the ball is pretty much going to be where he is tackled. Don't throw him a 6-yard dump when you need 10 yards because you won't get it. The way he runs after the catch is a carbon copy of Matt Spaeth - turtle up and shuffle backwards or sideways for a couple yards until you get blown up. But he is much better than Spaeth at getting open, and will actually catch a 15-yard pass over the middle if you send him there and throw it to him. He's not a big-play type of guy, but we can work with this.

I do like the new look of the defense and the trend of the secondary. Young and boldly aggressive is better than old and slow, or young and dumb. I said before the season that I'd rather keep one of the younger guys with upside than Gay who is a known quantity and a declining one, because even though Gay had more experience, there was no significant difference in their level of play. Glad to see that is coming to pass, although we will have a decision to make once Sutton comes back from IR; I actually hope we keep him over Gay at that point.

As for the bonus Kaepernick question - despite the bad QB play around the league, there is still no compelling reason for any team to hire him. Perhaps he'd be an upgrade over the Kizers and Hoyers of the world, but what's that going to do? Take a 3-13 team to 5-11? What good is that? Maybe he's better than some of the backups on non-horrible teams (Tolzien), but what's that going to do? Bring him in cold during the season and have him try to wing it, gamble that he's somehow going to win the game or two before the real QB is back, and then ... ?

And this is all assuming that he's actually in a place where he's focused first and foremost on playing professional football, to a degree that's going to allow him to not only miantain his level but catch up with everybody else. Based on the available evidence, that's a toss-up being generous (even before all the other bullshit, he was not exactly known as a film-room junkie, locker room leader, or even a team-first kind of guy). You'll notice how I haven't even mentioned the "non-football" part of it, which is that in order to even attempt these marginal on-field gains, table stakes is alienating somewhere between a quarter and a half of your fan base, who regardless of what you think of their political opinions, are still your customers. As an owner, that's not taking a political stand or "blackballing," that's just called not shooting yourself in the foot by pissing off a significant number of the people who are willing to pay you money.

Not even high-risk, high-reward - more like low reward, guaranteed trouble. Much as the media is finger blasting their shitbox over Kaepernick trying to get him a job, there are about a hundred non-opinion, non-political, simply football or business reasons why it's a dumb idea.

Ive always thought the Kaepernick debate was really overanalyzed around the league, so here's my first hot take im posting on the topic. And by hot take, i mean just a whole lot of common sense. From a talent perspective, there is no question that Kaepernick at least belongs on an NFL roster. Put all other variables aside. From that standpoint, this is almost impossible to argue. Do I have a personal vendetta against these pseudo running-QB's like many fans, especially steelers fans? Yes (Sorry to conjure up memories of Kordell Stewart and Michael Vick everybody). I think they were, are, and always will be a gimmick at the end of the day in comparison to a traditional pocket passer. With the right coach and offense however, he's at least a capable, sometimes lethal weapon. Give him to Kyle Shanahan or Bill Belichick and he'll light up the field in a significant number of games. 87.3 QB rating, 84.5 yards rushing per game (including two 100 yard rushing games, one of which was a playoff rushing yards record for QB's) and 11:5 TD:Interception ratio in the playoffs. Yeah, that warrants a roster spot in terms of performance. There are 81 QB's on a 53 man roster in the NFL right now: http://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/depthchartpos/QB

Even the most insistent Kaepernick hater would admit that he's clearly better than a dozens of these guys.

From a financial/off the field standpoint, rumors about Kaepernick's contract demands ($9-10 million last I checked) plus the attention drawn from his protests (whether you agree, disagree, or something in between) is a gigantic risk. Tim Tebow attracted a media circus, and his on-field prayer-kneeling really wasnt seen as some kind of malicious act, and yet it played a big part in him not being able to get a job. Sure, the numbers say that he sucks, but theres no denying that he did get the job done in the clutch on the back 9 of his career, including against us.

In terms of that perfect fit (a team that actually needs a QB and has a great offensive mind), there really arent many if any. So I can see why he's unemployed. There are definitely teams that have nothing to lose by throwing the dice (Cardinals, 49ers, Bears, Jaguars, Jets?...none of which have an OC thats good enough to utilize him imo) but I agree with you that they arent winning too many more games with him.

[teegre]

re: Kaepernick

Before there was a debate, I always felt he was douchey. He classlessly mocked Cam Newton after beating him in the playoffs. He was grabbing his crotch so much during a Madden (?) videogame commercial, that the director nearly edited his entire portion out. Et cetera.

He pissed & moaned about being benched (which all QBs do, but considering his douchiness, I took it as him being a spoiled brat). And then (only AFTER he was benched) did he all of a sudden become an activist.


Oh... and, he can't hit the inside of a barn if he was standing in the middle of it.


Kaepernick = Tebow

[Dwinsgames]

re: Kaepernick

Before there was a debate, I always felt he was douchey. He classlessly mocked Cam Newton after beating him in the playoffs. He was grabbing his crotch so much during a Madden (?) videogame commercial, that the director nearly edited his entire portion out. Et cetera.

He pissed & moaned about being benched (which all QBs do, but considering his douchiness, I took it as him being a spoiled brat). And then (only AFTER he was benched) did he all of a sudden become an activist.


Oh... and, he can't hit the inside of a barn if he was standing in the middle of it.


Kaepernick = Tebow


in Tebows defense at least he was admirable ...

Kaepernick not so much ...

neither are a passer and in today's league that is what you should be looking for as a QB

[steelreserve]

Even the most insistent Kaepernick hater would admit that he's clearly better than a dozens of these guys.

...

In terms of that perfect fit (a team that actually needs a QB and has a great offensive mind), there really arent many if any. So I can see why he's unemployed. There are definitely teams that have nothing to lose by throwing the dice (Cardinals, 49ers, Bears, Jaguars, Jets?...none of which have an OC thats good enough to utilize him imo) but I agree with you that they arent winning too many more games with him.


There's no denying he's got the same or better talent than the half-dozen or so worst starters in the league. On the other hand, they're the worst quarterbacks in the league. Being better than them doesn't necessarily make you good. What we have with Kaepernick is a guy who's somewhere between "low-average" and "pretty good," and has only been "pretty good" in a special offense.

Actually, the last part doesn't get talked about too much, but is probably way more important than people think. He's not very good in a traditional line-'em-up offense, and not many teams use the read option anymore, or even a hybrid of it. You make Kaepernick your starter, you have to go all-in and change your offense. You make him your backup, you have to have two different offenses. Otherwise you're going to suck. Very few teams are willing or able to do that even for a starter, and even then only if you think he's THE GUY who's going to have you competing for a title. You don't do that for a guy who's going to be there slogging you through a couple rough years, and certainly not for a backup. With that in mind, he probably could've fit in as a starter in Denver last year (good team needing a QB as a last piece and desperate to win), or possibly as a backup in Seattle or Carolina where they run an offense around a dual-threat starting QB. That's about it. Opting out of the 49ers contract was about as dumb a move as there was. Even without all of the political BS swirling around it, I think people vastly overestimated the market.

And there really is no getting around the political BS, although I think people are doing it wrong by looking at it as an issue of "social justice" when it's really a business decision. If I owned a McDonald's in Beverly Hills, I probably wouldn't put up a Black Lives Matter sign; if I owned a McDonald's in South Central L.A., I wouldn't put up a sign saying "Repeal Obamacare" or "We are the 1%." But I wouldn't be helping myself if I did the reverse either. The safest political statement for a business is no political statement. And that's exactly what they've chosen to do.

Anyway, I hope that's the last of the Kaepernick crap, and I apologize for taking the bait, because this really was a good thread aside from that and I hope I didn't sidetrack it too far and ruin it.

[SteelMember]

James is obviously a completely different player from Heath Miller, but he doesn't have to be the same. He's been a pleasant surprise at getting open over the middle and at securing tough catches. We just have to get used to the fact that where he catches the ball is pretty much going to be where he is tackled. Don't throw him a 6-yard dump when you need 10 yards because you won't get it. The way he runs after the catch is a carbon copy of Matt Spaeth - turtle up and shuffle backwards or sideways for a couple yards until you get blown up. But he is much better than Spaeth at getting open, and will actually catch a 15-yard pass over the middle if you send him there and throw it to him. He's not a big-play type of guy, but we can work with this.

This is what I see as well. If he turns and faces the catch, he rarely even makes an attempt to turn his body back down field. He makes the grab, wraps it up, back peddles for a yard or two with his butt leading the way. It's like he's waiting for the contact instead of delivering the blow. As you say, we can work with him, but he's gonna have to improve his blocking at some point... He's a liability in that facet of the game.

[DesertSteel]

Better individually does not always equate to better collectively.

[SteelMember]

12. At my house, the consensus was that since the punt was on the 1-yard-line AND since the defense was on fire, the odds of a safety outweighed the "gimme" FG.

We are on the same page here... outside of the fact I wouldn't consider a 40+ yard attempt a gimmie. Even for Boswell. :wink02:

Of all the decisions Tomlin gets questioned on, this is just the foam on a beer...

[Mojouw]

Interesting to see the reaction on James. I wholeheartedly agree with the assessment of his inability to produce yards after the catch. Personally, I just don't care about that. Simply secure the catch and fall down. That'll work in this offense.

But you must be able to block. I mean seriously. How is he that big and that bad at blocking?

[SteelMember]

Interesting to see the reaction on James. I wholeheartedly agree with the assessment of his inability to produce yards after the catch. Personally, I just don't care about that. Simply secure the catch and fall down. That'll work in this offense.

In Steelreserve's senario... throwing short of the sticks on 3rd downs. Other than that, no problem


But you must be able to block. I mean seriously. How is he that big and that bad at blocking?

Discounting the times he is just late to his assignment and doesn't get square, he does stay very upright and is easily knocked off his base... if you want to even call it that. Munch would probably hesitate to do so. You look at a guy like Heath, and the his base and his balance are obvious.

[Born2Steel]

Interesting to see the reaction on James. I wholeheartedly agree with the assessment of his inability to produce yards after the catch. Personally, I just don't care about that. Simply secure the catch and fall down. That'll work in this offense.

But you must be able to block. I mean seriously. How is he that big and that bad at blocking?

It usually comes down to footwork. Most big guys can fire off the ball and block a gap. It's when they get moving they can't keep their feet in position to leverage another big guy, who has leverage. Like the 'low man wins' situation.

[FrancoLambert]

Only 2 games in, but it's looking like the defense is going to be much better against the run this year.

[Craic]

I'd be happy with a $12M running back that averaged more than 3 YPC.

Meh. Talk about a worthless stat. Anyone with eyes saw him literally making holes where they didn't exist on Sunday, and that's only his second game back. I'd rather have his YPC average from last Sunday then 140 yards and 14 YPC from a guy who had five-foot holes to run through and fifteen yards before being untouched each down.

[teegre]

Anyway, I hope that's the last of the Kaepernick crap, and I apologize for taking the bait, because this really was a good thread aside from that and I hope I didn't sidetrack it too far and ruin it.

I was thinking the same thing.

I, too, apologize for derailing this thread (one of the better threads recently).

[DesertSteel]

Meh. Talk about a worthless stat. Anyone with eyes saw him literally making holes where they didn't exist on Sunday, and that's only his second game back. I'd rather have his YPC average from last Sunday then 140 yards and 14 YPC from a guy who had five-foot holes to run through and fifteen yards before being untouched each down.
Yeah well the point is that Bell put himself in that situation (once more) by holding out. He has no pass with me. My opinion is that the holdout and subsequent sub par play are negotiation tactics from Bell. Next year, when they consider the tag, he wants them to think twice by knowing that he'll hold out till the last day and take several games to be up to par. I'd rather we cut ties and move on after this season TBH. He's not worth $15M.

Plus..... I'd rather have 2 TDs by JJ than 12 YPC :)

[Mojouw]

Yeah well the point is that Bell put himself in that situation (once more) by holding out. He has no pass with me. My opinion is that the holdout and subsequent sub par play are negotiation tactics from Bell. Next year, when they consider the tag, he wants them to think twice by knowing that he'll hold out till the last day and take several games to be up to par. I'd rather we cut ties and move on after this season TBH. He's not worth $15M.

Of course it is a negotiation tactic. This is a business after all.

The Steelers using the tag is a negotiating tactic. What is good for the goose is good for the gander...

[DesertSteel]

Of course it is a negotiation tactic. This is a business after all.

The Steelers using the tag is a negotiating tactic. What is good for the goose is good for the gander...

Bell's tactics are very poor IMO. He's overplayed his hand.

[steelreserve]

Meh. Talk about a worthless stat. Anyone with eyes saw him literally making holes where they didn't exist on Sunday, and that's only his second game back.

Just to be certain: You were watching the Steelers-Vikings game from 2017, right? Because in that game, I saw a guy with average vision making average plays, against a defense that was OK but far from dominant. Better than the first game, in that he was at least falling forward after contact and gaining some yards, but still a shadow of the player we had in 2016. He was almost completely ineffective until garbage time run-the-clock-out mode set in. That's not going to cut it.



Of course it is a negotiation tactic. This is a business after all.

The Steelers using the tag is a negotiating tactic. What is good for the goose is good for the gander...


The Steelers used the tag to give them time to work on a "real" contract, and then offered one (which was by all accounts a reasonable deal). That's a negotiating tactic.

Bell held out when there was no possibility of gaining any money at all. That's called throwing a bitch fit.

[polamalubeast]

The Steelers used the tag to give them time to work on a "real" contract, and then offered one (which was by all accounts a reasonable deal). That's a negotiating tactic.

Bell held out when there was no possibility of gaining any money at all. That's called throwing a bitch fit.

In fact, his agent had accept the steelers offer, but Bell refused this contract.

Maybe Bell will have a bigger deal next year, but I do not think it's going to be with a very good team.

[Born2Steel]

Bell did not "hold out". It wasn't a hold out. I still do not get why people are pissed about Bell not making TC. He was not going to practice, not in contact drills anyway. The contract issue is a completely different issue than why he didn't report to camp. No player likes camp. He didn't need to/have to be there, so he wasn't. He reported exactly when he said he would when he was asked. I'm so glad the Steelers and Bell have moved on.

[Dwinsgames]

I still think it would have been hilarious if the Steelers would have rescinded the tag a few hours prior to Bell showing up ... most teams ( that are worth playing for ) had spent all the money they had to spend and he would have got table scraps or played for a perennial loser and been way behind in the learning curve and mostly ineffective the entire year

[polamalubeast]

Bell did not "hold out". It wasn't a hold out. I still do not get why people are pissed about Bell not making TC. He was not going to practice, not in contact drills anyway. The contract issue is a completely different issue than why he didn't report to camp. No player likes camp. He didn't need to/have to be there, so he wasn't. He reported exactly when he said he would when he was asked. I'm so glad the Steelers and Bell have moved on.


Skip the training camp and holdout is the same thing...

[Born2Steel]

Skip the training camp and holdout is the same thing...

Not in this case. Bell wasn't coming to camp even if he had gotten exactly what he was asking for. TC was a non-issue here.

[Mojouw]

I love how folks are more bitter about the contract issue then Bell's missed games due to suspension. Last two seasons folks were counting down the weeks until Bell's return.

Now they are all salty because how dare he turn down the reasonable offer that the Steelers and those dear Rooneys made him.

Whether the contract is reasonable or not does not matter. Bell doesn't think it is and he made a decent bet on himself. No one on the planet is more motivated to have an incredible year than Bell. It is the only way he can move the Steelers off the franchise tag for next year. Have a massive year and hope they figure L Bell is worth it at any price.

The Vikings front line is one of the best in football. I mean I guess you can keep denying that, but I'm never going to agree with you. Against Cleveland, the Browns front 4 ate the Steelers o-line's lunch.

If Bell starts or keeps missing big holes, then I'm gonna worry. Until then, not a big deal for me.

No less an authority than Bettis always argued that it took 3-4 weeks to crank up the run game.

[Dwinsgames]

I am not happy with any player who isnt in camp or ready to play on game day if healthy suspended or any reason other than hurt is not acceptable ..it all pisses me off

[steelreserve]

Bell did not "hold out". It wasn't a hold out. I still do not get why people are pissed about Bell not making TC. He was not going to practice, not in contact drills anyway. The contract issue is a completely different issue than why he didn't report to camp. No player likes camp. He didn't need to/have to be there, so he wasn't. He reported exactly when he said he would when he was asked.

Obviously, he needed to be there and it's showing now. Other people are ready and he's not. Therefore, it's an issue.

Yeah, people don't like practice. But guess what, you need to practice with the offense to have your shit together. And lifting weights on your own is not going to bring your game sense up to full speed. If he would've signed the contract and skipped training camp, it would've been the same idiotic move and people would still be mad about it.




I love how folks are more bitter about the contract issue then Bell's missed games due to suspension. Last two seasons folks were counting down the weeks until Bell's return.

Now they are all salty because how dare he turn down the reasonable offer that the Steelers and those dear Rooneys made him.

Whether the contract is reasonable or not does not matter. Bell doesn't think it is and he made a decent bet on himself. No one on the planet is more motivated to have an incredible year than Bell. It is the only way he can move the Steelers off the franchise tag for next year. Have a massive year and hope they figure L Bell is worth it at any price.

It's not that he turned down the long-term contract. It's that once the deadline for that passed, there literally was nothing to gain from not signing the tag and showing up like everyone else. He was prohibited by league rule from signing a new contract. He gained no leverage, there was no more negotiating to take place, there was no bet on himself.

If he really wanted to bet on himself, you know what the smart thing would've been - show up to training camp, do everything he can to get in top gear, and then kick ass all season. Instead we got "I'm going to sit out of practice to be an asshole about it, just to show them I can."

Nothing but a desperate attempt to show that he still had some control over the situation, when it was obvious to everyone else that he didn't. Because guess what he ended up doing - signing the franchise tag just like we knew he was going to.

The only thing that changed by refusing to sign the tag was that instead of being on pace for a big season that would raise his value even more, he came out of the gate rusty and picked up the Bad Attitude tag. It's the kind of fit that a small child would throw, with the same results. Nice job "betting on yourself," congratulations - you hurt your own cause and were fortunate so far not to hurt the team's too badly.. And also, it's not some random dumb mistake or lapse in judgment this time, it was a conscious decision on his part, which is why it's as/more infuriating than the stupid weed shit. The whole things is stupid as fuck and it's only his doing. Selfish move and a shitty attitude.

[Born2Steel]

Obviously, he needed to be there and it's showing now. Other people are ready and he's not. Therefore, it's an issue.

Yeah, people don't like practice. But guess what, you need to practice with the offense to have your shit together. And lifting weights on your own is not going to bring your game sense up to full speed. If he would've signed the contract and skipped training camp, it would've been the same idiotic move and people would still be mad about it.





It's not that he turned down the long-term contract. It's that once the deadline for that passed, there literally was nothing to gain from not signing the tag and showing up like everyone else. He was prohibited by league rule from signing a new contract. He gained no leverage, there was no more negotiating to take place, there was no bet on himself.

If he really wanted to bet on himself, you know what the smart thing would've been - show up to training camp, do everything he can to get in top gear, and then kick ass all season. Instead we got "I'm going to sit out of practice to be an asshole about it, just to show them I can."

Nothing but a desperate attempt to show that he still had some control over the situation, when it was obvious to everyone else that he didn't. Because guess what he ended up doing - signing the franchise tag just like we knew he was going to.

The only thing that changed by refusing to sign the tag was that instead of being on pace for a big season that would raise his value even more, he came out of the gate rusty and picked up the Bad Attitude tag. It's the kind of fit that a small child would throw, with the same results. Nice job "betting on yourself," congratulations - you hurt your own cause and were fortunate so far not to hurt the team's too badly.. And also, it's not some random dumb mistake or lapse in judgment this time, it was a conscious decision on his part, which is why it's as/more infuriating than the stupid weed shit. The whole things is stupid as fuck and it's only his doing. Selfish move and a shitty attitude.

This seems to keep going around the same circle. The coaches said, before camp started, Bell would not be participating in any contact drills. They wanted to give him the best chance to be at 100% healthy for the start of the season. That would most likely include all preseason games as well. Nothing would be different if he had been there from day 1. How much better? None, none more better. But, he still goes to 11.

Haven't found the article about this yet. I found one about OTAs, which says pretty much the same thing. Will try later. Off to my son's game now.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Interesting to see the reaction on James. I wholeheartedly agree with the assessment of his inability to produce yards after the catch. Personally, I just don't care about that. Simply secure the catch and fall down. That'll work in this offense.

But you must be able to block. I mean seriously. How is he that big and that bad at blocking?

Too tall, so not the best leverage perhaps? Only tight end off the top of my head at that height thats a starter and a dominant blocker is Gronk. But that dude is once a generation

[polamalubeast]

911007838184644609

[43Hitman]

Bell is going to be fine, I was pissed about the whole situation, but I'm over it now. It's not like I can really do anything. I won't root against him while he is on the Steelers, in fact I'll be pulling for him to have big games every week. His head is in the right spot at this moment and that's all that matters. This article and video, tells me all I need to see hear. If he can back up to his form the team will be better for it.

http://www.steelers.com/news/article-4/Bells-OK-with-whatever-it-takes/7f300859-c3a3-4112-a7c3-cf1f4a873bef

[Dwinsgames]

911007838184644609

missed a HUGE cutback late in 3rd last week , would have went 50+ for a TD instead he went to the right side of the line and gained 2

[Psycho Ward 86]

missed a HUGE cutback late in 3rd last week , would have went 50+ for a TD instead he went to the right side of the line and gained 2

Martavis missed one just as big when he carried the ball on his reverse. Really puts into perspective the difference between 26 points and 40

[Craic]

missed a HUGE cutback late in 3rd last week , would have went 50+ for a TD instead he went to the right side of the line and gained 2

Doubt that very seriously. Bell's one weakness in the run game is the lack of the final gear to create separation downfield. He's been caught from behind several times in the open field.

[Dwinsgames]

Doubt that very seriously. Bell's one weakness in the run game is the lack of the final gear to create separation downfield. He's been caught from behind several times in the open field.


he has enough speed , nobody was to that side of the field that was not already over committed , could have never turned their momentum back and ran him down just wouldn't have happened

[teegre]

Le'Veon Bell and Colin Kaepernick walk into a bar...

[Hawkman]

Le'Veon Bell and Colin Kaepernick walk into a bar...

:stirthepot::heh:

[Born2Steel]

Le'Veon Bell and Colin Kaepernick walk into a bar...

If Bell had been in TC, he would have ducked under that bar.

[polamalubeast]

This seems to keep going around the same circle. The coaches said, before camp started, Bell would not be participating in any contact drills. They wanted to give him the best chance to be at 100% healthy for the start of the season. That would most likely include all preseason games as well. Nothing would be different if he had been there from day 1. How much better? None, none more better. But, he still goes to 11.

Haven't found the article about this yet. I found one about OTAs, which says pretty much the same thing. Will try later. Off to my son's game now.

Colbert said during the training camp that Bell was going to be behind....Colbert was right.

[Mojouw]

Too all the responses about James' blocking - thanks! Those are some great thoughts about actual football things!

Totally forgot that at his height, he is going to have a decided disadvantage when it comes to leverage. I guess the good thing we can say about James and blocking is that it certainly isn't for lack of trying! He has plenty of "want to" and rarely, if ever, just "ole" blocks a guy.

As for the Bell situation, I will say this and try and let it go. Take it out of football and put yourself in this scenario:

Employee: My contract is up for renewal and I would like to be paid 100 dollars an hour.
Employer: Nope. But we think 85 bucks an hour is fair.
Employee: Nope. Just can't see my way clear to that.
Employer: Okay. Sorry we can't get together, but I am going to invoke my right to force you to sign an exclusive contract for us. Says you have to start Sept. 1. But we would really like you to start working May 25th. There are some cool training videos we want you to work through, a couple of team building retreats, the Bob's want to have a meeting, you know all that good stuff.
Employee: Yeah, that's cool but I don't want to work for the pay rate you are paying. I get that it is a high pay rate, but I think I could get better on the open market and you just prevented me from doing that. See you September 1.

I mean, honestly, if I faced a similar situation to Bell in my own workplace, no way I come in before I have to. I teach. I get paid Oct-June. Classes start in September. Every August I tell myself this is the year I work like 3 days a week on the semester activities and get a big head start. Every year I make the decision that I am not getting paid enough to work in the off-season. Then I spend the next 16 weeks working like a mad man to get everything done. So does essentially everyone else at my workplace. I realize the analogy is poor at best, but I feel like people are ripping Bell for the same decision that most folks would make. As a fan I get that - "hey! Do your job and make my team better!" but to start the moral and psychological judgements -- that's the line for me.

[steelreserve]

Le'Veon Bell and Colin Kaepernick walk into a bar...

The bartender brings Bell a beer, and he says "What the fuck is this?", dumps it out and demands three pitchers instead, then storms out angrily. Kaepernick pulls down his pants and takes a shit right on the dance floor, and gets thrown out. They stand around in front of the bar for an hour bitching about how it was all the bartender's fault.

*BA-DUM-BUM-CHING*

Eventually, the bartender reluctantly agrees to let Bell back in and give him one pitcher, and he chugs it down angrily. His friends all need to be at work early and Bell says don't worry, I can still drive you home. He makes it two blocks and passes out with his face on the horn. Half his friends are pissed and half say "It's OK, he'll do better tomorrow!"

*BA-DUM-BUM-CHING*

Meanwhile, the bartender is still staring at the piece of shit and saying "I don't want to clean that up," so a third of his customers left and went to the bar next door.

*BA-DUM-BUM-CHING*

[steelreserve]

While we're at it, my version of the Bell situation:



Employee: My contract is up for renewal and I would like to be paid 100 dollars an hour.
Employer: That's crazy. You're a fucking teacher.
Employee: Nope, I'm a teacher AND an electrician. I should be paid like both.
Employer: *rolls eyes* You can be one or the other at a time. But, since we think you do good work, we'll pay you twice as much as the other teachers.
Employee: Fuck you! Some other school will pay me more.
Employer: Well, according to the deal that the teachers' union agreed to, we can keep you for a year if we make you the highest-paid teacher in the state. So we'll do that, and in the meantime maybe we can figure out a salary that everyone's happy about.
Employee: Fuck you! I'm not showing up until the last possible minute and I'm not going to even know the material!
Employer: *sigh* You know, other schools pay you based on your students' test scores, so if you show up prepared and have a good year, you'll probably have a better chance of getting what you want. Your goal is to be highly paid, right?
Employee: Screw that! I'll just wing it. I don't need to be no fuckin prepared!
Employer: Very good.

[DesertSteel]

Too all the responses about James' blocking - thanks! Those are some great thoughts about actual football things!

Totally forgot that at his height, he is going to have a decided disadvantage when it comes to leverage. I guess the good thing we can say about James and blocking is that it certainly isn't for lack of trying! He has plenty of "want to" and rarely, if ever, just "ole" blocks a guy.

As for the Bell situation, I will say this and try and let it go. Take it out of football and put yourself in this scenario:

Employee: My contract is up for renewal and I would like to be paid 100 dollars an hour.
Employer: Nope. But we think 85 bucks an hour is fair.
Employee: Nope. Just can't see my way clear to that.
Employer: Okay. Sorry we can't get together, but I am going to invoke my right to force you to sign an exclusive contract for us. Says you have to start Sept. 1. But we would really like you to start working May 25th. There are some cool training videos we want you to work through, a couple of team building retreats, the Bob's want to have a meeting, you know all that good stuff.
Employee: Yeah, that's cool but I don't want to work for the pay rate you are paying. I get that it is a high pay rate, but I think I could get better on the open market and you just prevented me from doing that. See you September 1.

I mean, honestly, if I faced a similar situation to Bell in my own workplace, no way I come in before I have to. I teach. I get paid Oct-June. Classes start in September. Every August I tell myself this is the year I work like 3 days a week on the semester activities and get a big head start. Every year I make the decision that I am not getting paid enough to work in the off-season. Then I spend the next 16 weeks working like a mad man to get everything done. So does essentially everyone else at my workplace. I realize the analogy is poor at best, but I feel like people are ripping Bell for the same decision that most folks would make. As a fan I get that - "hey! Do your job and make my team better!" but to start the moral and psychological judgements -- that's the line for me.
Did they offer to make you the highest paid teacher in the history of education? If you also pass out advice between classes do they also add on the counselor's salary too?

[Mojouw]

Did they offer to make you the highest paid teacher in the history of education? If you also pass out advice between classes do they also add on the counselor's salary too?

That's an interesting argument. At the institution I work for they cut IT, advising, academic tutoring, and a variety of other student support services. As a result I have picked up basic IT support for my students (everything we do involves internet, email, and other basic computer technologies THAT NEVER work right out of the box), I give them advice on classes to take in the future, and I help them understand how to navigate the bureaucracy of our institution. I choose to do that because I like my students and want to help them succeed. It pisses me off. every. damn. day. My work day is longer, more frustrating, and taxing for me because I have to do a bunch of crap that isn't my job. If I had better contract language that would allow me to either advocate for a raise or "hold-out" until the absolute last moment, I would do that in heartbeat.

[DesertSteel]

That's an interesting argument. At the institution I work for they cut IT, advising, academic tutoring, and a variety of other student support services. As a result I have picked up basic IT support for my students (everything we do involves internet, email, and other basic computer technologies THAT NEVER work right out of the box), I give them advice on classes to take in the future, and I help them understand how to navigate the bureaucracy of our institution. I choose to do that because I like my students and want to help them succeed. It pisses me off. every. damn. day. My work day is longer, more frustrating, and taxing for me because I have to do a bunch of crap that isn't my job. If I had better contract language that would allow me to either advocate for a raise or "hold-out" until the absolute last moment, I would do that in heartbeat.
Well, you're a hero in my book :)

[Mojouw]

Well, you're a hero in my book :)

Thanks!

As a fan of the Steelers, Leveon Bell ticks me off every time I hear him open his mouth. Dude is out to lunch and is pushing Rashard Mendenhall hard for "goofiest crap I have ever heard a Steelers player say".

But as a strong believer in the negotiating position of "the employer is always wrong and trying to screw over employees" then bravo L. Bell. Bravo. Don't do a damn thing you don't have to!

This stance could totally be influenced by the sheer amount of crappy and illogical workplaces I have found myself employed in!

[teegre]

That's an interesting argument. At the institution I work for they cut IT, advising, academic tutoring, and a variety of other student support services. As a result I have picked up basic IT support for my students (everything we do involves internet, email, and other basic computer technologies THAT NEVER work right out of the box), I give them advice on classes to take in the future, and I help them understand how to navigate the bureaucracy of our institution. I choose to do that because I like my students and want to help them succeed. It pisses me off. every. damn. day. My work day is longer, more frustrating, and taxing for me because I have to do a bunch of crap that isn't my job. If I had better contract language that would allow me to either advocate for a raise or "hold-out" until the absolute last moment, I would do that in heartbeat.

So much truth in this post.