Schefter: Steelers Not Close To Signing Bell Long-Term With Deadline Looming

[hawaiiansteeler]

Schefter: Steelers Not Close To Signing Bell Long-Term With Deadline Looming

BY DAVE BRYAN JULY 16, 2017

The deadline for the Pittsburgh Steelers to sign running back Le’Veon Bell to a long-term contract extension is almost 24 hours away and while anything can certainly happen between now and Monday’s 4PM EST cutoff, it doesn’t appear as though the two sides are close to a deal at the time of this post.

According to Adam Schefter of ESPN on Sunday, Bell is one of three players still wearing the franchise tag who are not close to consummating new long-term contract extensions with their respective teams. Washington Redskins quarterback Kirk Cousins and Los Angeles Rams cornerback Trumaine Johnson are the two other players.

Deadlines usually spur actions and so quite honestly, it’s not surprising that Bell and the Steelers have yet to work out a new long-term deal so far. However, it’s worth noting that the last time Bell’s agent, Adisa Bakari, represented a franchise tagged running back in 2012, that player, Matt Forte, ultimately signed a long-term contract extension with the Chicago Bears on the day of that year’s deadline.

Bell was issued the $12.12 million franchise tag just ahead of the start of the 2017 league year in March and has reportedly yet to sign the tender...

to read rest of article:

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/07/schefter-steelers-not-close-signing-bell-long-term-deadline-looming/

[GBMelBlount]

I wonder if we could trade him and move up enough to draft the first QB next year.

[BlackAndGold]

I wonder if we could trade him and move up enough to draft the first QB next year.

None.

2018 draft is looking like another strong RB class.

[Mojouw]

Not likely to work out. Would need to get into the top 3-5 to pull that off. So now that is likely going to cost Bell + Steelers own 1st rounder.

Likely teams drafting in the top 5 are Rams, 49'ers, Jets, Bears, Jags, and Browns.

Every one of those teams, aside from the Browns and Bears are likely to take a QB. Rule out the Browns (no way Pittsburgh wants to give Bell 2 chances a year to beat them).

Bears have some youngish backs and assuming Gurley bounces back so do the Rams. Leaves, the Niners, Jets, and Jags.

I figure the chances are pretty low that they all pass on a franchise QB in the draft. But, Kirk Cousins could prove my precarious house of cards theory all wrong!

[Dwinsgames]

Not likely to work out. Would need to get into the top 3-5 to pull that off. So now that is likely going to cost Bell + Steelers own 1st rounder.

Likely teams drafting in the top 5 are Rams, 49'ers, Jets, Bears, Jags, and Browns.

Every one of those teams, aside from the Browns and Bears are likely to take a QB. Rule out the Browns (no way Pittsburgh wants to give Bell 2 chances a year to beat them).


Bears have some youngish backs and assuming Gurley bounces back so do the Rams. Leaves, the Niners, Jets, and Jags.

I figure the chances are pretty low that they all pass on a franchise QB in the draft. But, Kirk Cousins could prove my precarious house of cards theory all wrong!


Jags Drafted Leonard Fournette 4th over all this past draft so scratch them as well as they will not be in the market after drafting one so high

[Mojouw]

Jags Drafted Leonard Fournette 4th over all this past draft so scratch them as well as they will not be in the market after drafting one so high

I forgot about that! So, even if we assume Cousins engineers a landing in San Francisco, that leaves the Jets.

Is Bell + a first rounder +??? enough to get them to move off a "franchise" QB? I doubt it...

The Steelers best bet to obtain a first round QB is to trade out of the 1st round for a year or two for future 1st round picks. Then package all those picks together to go get they guy they want.

[DesertSteel]

I see no rush to go long term. Steelers have the most leverage in the negotiations. Let's see him get through a season with at least 14-15 games and no drug issues.

[BlackAndGold]

Many deals last year came in the last hour before the deadline.

Hopefully something can be agreed on.

[Count Steeler]

Not sure that the economics work out in Bells' favor. He happens to be the best at the wrong position in the current NFL. Seems like your #1 WR, LT and CB, and of course QB all take priority. Even the edge rusher is becoming higher paid. I trust the Steelers won't overpay and that won't make Bell happy. In another position, he probably makes 18-22m. As a RB, maybe 10-14m.

[Steeldude]

I see no rush to go long term. Steelers have the most leverage in the negotiations. Let's see him get through a season with at least 14-15 games and no drug issues.

This.

[Dwinsgames]

honestly anything over 10 million a year is to much for a RB it doesn't matter if you are the best in the game

just cant have 1/5 th of the cap going to 2 guys on the roster especially if on the same side of the ball

[AtlantaDan]

Not sure that the economics work out in Bells' favor. He happens to be the best at the wrong position in the current NFL. Seems like your #1 WR, LT and CB, and of course QB all take priority. Even the edge rusher is becoming higher paid. I trust the Steelers won't overpay and that won't make Bell happy. In another position, he probably makes 18-22m. As a RB, maybe 10-14m.

:iagree:

Running back has been left behind in terms of value placed on the position, presumably due to changes in who touches the ball on offense and durability concerns

Franchise tag salaries for 2017

Quarterback: $21.268m
Running back: $12.120m
Receiver: $15.682m
Tight end: $9.780m
Offensive line: $14.271m
Defensive end: $16.934m
Defensive tackle: $13.387m
Linebacker: $14.550m
Cornerback: $14.212
Safety: $10.896m
Kicker/punter: $4.835m

http://fansided.com/2017/02/14/nfl-franchise-tag-values-per-position/

Add to that Bell's injury history along with multiple drug suspensions and no surprise no long term deal has been negotiated

[tube517]

Add to that Bell's injury history along with multiple drug suspensions and no surprise no long term deal has been negotiated


Exactly my thoughts. His durablity and weed use are a concern.

[BlackAndGold]

http://images1.tickld.com/live/fb_911723.jpg

[steelreserve]

No one in the history of the league has actually sat out a season instead of signing the franchise tag, so not signing the tender is a non-issue.

He has ... availability issues, so a big contract is not without risk. It's not a bad idea to try to get another season's worth of data on what to expect before we shove a wheelbarrow full of cash his way.

By the way, does anyone else think the franchise tag cost seems screwy AGAIN in this case? The rule says the cost is the average of the top five salaries at the position, but what we had to offer Bell is almost double that, and significantly higher than the #1 salary. The average of the top 5 salaries for running backs was $7.06M by cap hit, $6.87M by average yearly value.

This is not the first time I have seen this happen. It doesn't matter whether you use cap hit for 2017 (which includes base salary and bonuses) or average value of the contract; the amount we had to offer Bell is still way higher. Cap hit for the top 5 highest-paid RBs is first on the list below; average value is second. In case they were using 2016 numbers, I checked that list too and it's not much different.

Le’Veon Bell - $12,120,000 / $12,120,000
LeSean McCoy - $8,875,000 / $8,010,000
Doug Martin - $7,000,000 / $7,150,000
DeMarco Murray - $6,950,000 / $6,312,000
Lamar Miller - $6,500,000 / $6,500,000
Chris Ivory - $6,000,000 / $6,400,000

[Dwinsgames]

No one in the history of the league has actually sat out a season instead of signing the franchise tag, so not signing the tender is a non-issue.

He has ... availability issues, so a big contract is not without risk. It's not a bad idea to try to get another season's worth of data on what to expect before we shove a wheelbarrow full of cash his way.

By the way, does anyone else think the franchise tag cost seems screwy AGAIN in this case? The rule says the cost is the average of the top five salaries at the position, but what we had to offer Bell is almost double that, and significantly higher than the #1 salary. The average of the top 5 salaries for running backs was $7.06M by cap hit, $6.87M by average yearly value.

This is not the first time I have seen this happen. It doesn't matter whether you use cap hit for 2017 (which includes base salary and bonuses) or average value of the contract; the amount we had to offer Bell is still way higher. Cap hit for the top 5 highest-paid RBs is first on the list below; average value is second. In case they were using 2016 numbers, I checked that list too and it's not much different.

Le’Veon Bell - $12,120,000 / $12,120,000
LeSean McCoy - $8,875,000 / $8,010,000
Doug Martin - $7,000,000 / $7,150,000
DeMarco Murray - $6,950,000 / $6,312,000
Lamar Miller - $6,500,000 / $6,500,000
Chris Ivory - $6,000,000 / $6,400,000

I will take Murray and Miller (BOTH combined) over Bell for basically the same money ..1 goes down I still have a quality proven back

[BlackAndGold]

887012924052705280

[AtlantaDan]

887012924052705280

LOL - as if Bell or any other player has a f**k to give about what a glorified gossip columnist like Jason LaConfora thinks he should do when it comes to negotiating his pay. :sofunny:

Confirmation that some writers are arrogant enough to think anyone cares what they think someone else should do and of the suspicions of many players that writers and broadcasters are in the back pocket of the owners

[pczach]

According to Ian Rapoport, the Steelers have offered Bell a contract that averages more than he will make this year under the franchise tag. That means he will be averaging more than $12.1 million dollars per year if he accepts the deal. I believe he said that is their final offer, and that Bell either accepts the contract or he does not. He wants more guaranteed money and more money up front than the Steelers have offered.

We shall see soon enough.

[BlackAndGold]

No long term deal per Schefter.

[pczach]

It may be time that the team does everything in their power to draft Sequon Barkley next year.

[SteelMayhem72]

Another prima donna player... Wouldnt be surprised if hes gone next year... This is all gonna be resulting of what he does this year... If he has a great year with no injuries then they will probably franchise him again but will give him what he wants in the process

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

[steelreserve]

According to Ian Rapoport, the Steelers have offered Bell a contract that averages more than he will make this year under the franchise tag. That means he will be averaging more than $12.1 million dollars per year if he accepts the deal. I believe he said that is their final offer, and that Bell either accepts the contract or he does not. He wants more guaranteed money and more money up front than the Steelers have offered.

We shall see soon enough.

He would be a fool not to sign it, and we would be fools to guarantee more than whatever token amount passes for table stakes. We'll see who's dumb!

[Dwinsgames]

he is one gruesome injury away ( and 2 failed tests ) from never seeing another paycheck in the league , when somebody puts that kind of money on the table only a FOOL walks away without picking it up

[43Hitman]

he is one gruesome injury away ( and 2 failed tests ) from never seeing another paycheck in the league , when somebody puts that kind of money on the table only a FOOL walks away without picking it up
I agree. Keep him healthy this year and transition tag him next year and be done with it. I am still open to signing him long term, but he has to realize that he is dealing with one of, if not the most conservative teams in the league. When they make up their minds on your market value, that's it, no more negotiating. Knowing that I find it hard to believe that we'll be able to get him long term now. Unless he just kills it this year stays healthy and clean. That's his only opportunity to get a higher offer imo.

[lipps83]

Thank goodness they didn't sign him. Waste of money for what he wants.

[fansince'76]

LOL - as if Bell or any other player has a f**k to give about what a glorified gossip columnist like Jason LaConfora thinks he should do when it comes to negotiating his pay. :sofunny:

Confirmation that some writers are arrogant enough to think anyone cares what they think someone else should do and of the suspicions of many players that writers and broadcasters are in the back pocket of the owners

https://akphoto1.ask.fm/174/110/257/1650003012-1rdsqar-9opkapd4hd41mna/original/file.jpg

:chuckle:

[Edman]

As awesome as Bell is, he hasn't played a full 16 game season yet, and is another busted drug test away from being gone for a year.

[BurghBoy412]

As awesome as Bell is, he hasn't played a full 16 game season yet, and is another busted drug test away from being gone for a year.
12 game Bell is what I call him.

[BurghBoy412]

Until he can help this team win a Championship... He hasn't done shit in my mind. Let some dumbass team like the Jets overpay him and deal with his suspensions and injuries.

[BlackAndGold]

This team gets no closer to a SB without Bell, that's a fact.

They'll have contract talks again after the season. Playing the year on the FT could be smart for both parties, especially for the Steelers.

[ALLD]

Bell would need to be high not to sign. I think they are holding him accountable to availability.

[DesertSteel]

This team gets no closer to a SB without Bell, that's a fact.

Gronk has every bit as much impact as Bell and the Patriots won without him. He's not indispensable. Valuable but not indispensable.

[AtlantaDan]

Bell speaks

"It's a little frustrating, but it's a business," said Bell, who declined to comment on the particulars of the Steelers' offer or his own projection of his worth. "I'm not in a rush to sign for something I'm not valued at, if I feel I'm worth more than what they are offering me." ...

"The running back market definitely took a hit, and I can't be the guy who continues to let it take a hit," Bell said. "We do everything. We block, we run, we catch the ball. Our value isn't where it needs to be. I'm taking it upon myself to open up some eyes and show the position is more valuable." ...

"I definitely don't want to play for anybody else," Bell said of the Steelers. "You never know what will happen. Today was a big eye opener. I'm going to definitely enjoy my best year with the Steelers and be happy with it." ...

"I guess when it comes to camp and doing extra things when I'm training, I can't be as aggressive as I normally would be because there's no longevity," Bell said. "But I'm still going to be out there and be Le'Veon Bell. ... The way I train, all it's going to take for me is a few practices and some game action. I haven't thought about it that far. I'm game-planning today. I was thinking the deal would be done. I'm going to take it day-to-day and see what happens."

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20089133/no-deal-leveon-bell-pittsburgh-steelers-running-back-make-121-million

In other words Bell shows up no earlier than late August

[pczach]

Gronk has every bit as much impact as Bell and the Patriots won without him. He's not indispensable. Valuable but not indispensable.


That's the reason I mentioned drafting Saquon Barkley earlier. He is the running back I am most excited about since Bell came out of school. He's that good.

He also catches the ball well with great size, speed, and moves. He is very similar to Bell in his abilities, but with breakaway speed.

Imagine drafting Barkley, and he becomes an impact player immediately. He will also be playing for far less money than Bell, and the team will have the opportunity to use that savings towards other areas of the team.

I love Bell. I wanted them to draft him. I said he would be the best RB in the NFL. He's a beast, and probably the best player on the team. I hope he stays with the team for a long time, but only at a reasonable price.

It would be difficult to replace his abilities, but outside of a franchise quarterback....there is nobody irreplaceable if the money demands become too much.

[BurghBoy412]

12 games a season doesn't earn you the top contract at your position. When a team commits a shit load of money they expect 16 games out of that player.

[st33lersguy]

Glad he didn't get more than the franchise tender. He may be a special player, but he's been injured and suspended too often for that kind of money. Let him prove he deserves a long term contract here

[BurghBoy412]

Glad he didn't get more than the franchise tender. He may be a special player, but he's been injured and suspended too often for that kind of money. Let him prove he deserves a long term contract here
Its really the best move the front office could make. Forcing Bell to prove his worth.

[BlackAndGold]

Gronk has every bit as much impact as Bell and the Patriots won without him. He's not indispensable. Valuable but not indispensable.

They have the GOAT.

Also, they had Martellus Bennett replacing him, a very good TE.

[Dwinsgames]

Bell speaks

"It's a little frustrating, but it's a business," said Bell, who declined to comment on the particulars of the Steelers' offer or his own projection of his worth. "I'm not in a rush to sign for something I'm not valued at, if I feel I'm worth more than what they are offering me." ...

"The running back market definitely took a hit, and I can't be the guy who continues to let it take a hit," Bell said. "We do everything. We block, we run, we catch the ball. Our value isn't where it needs to be. I'm taking it upon myself to open up some eyes and show the position is more valuable." ...

"I definitely don't want to play for anybody else," Bell said of the Steelers. "You never know what will happen. Today was a big eye opener. I'm going to definitely enjoy my best year with the Steelers and be happy with it." ...

"I guess when it comes to camp and doing extra things when I'm training, I can't be as aggressive as I normally would be because there's no longevity," Bell said. "But I'm still going to be out there and be Le'Veon Bell. ... The way I train, all it's going to take for me is a few practices and some game action. I haven't thought about it that far. I'm game-planning today. I was thinking the deal would be done. I'm going to take it day-to-day and see what happens."

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20089133/no-deal-leveon-bell-pittsburgh-steelers-running-back-make-121-million

In other words Bell shows up no earlier than late August


from what I get from the reports of what he was offered , the way he talks here ...12 million a year just isnt gonna get it done ( that's 2 mill more than I would want to pay if it where my team ) sounds to me like he believes he is a 15 million dollar man ....#nothanks

[AtlantaDan]

from what I get from the reports of what he was offered , the way he talks here ...12 million a year just isnt gonna get it done ( that's 2 mill more than I would want to pay if it where my team ) sounds to me like he believes he is a 15 million dollar man ....#nothanks

But this of course is not just for himself - it is for all running backs :rolleyes:


The running back market definitely took a hit, and I can't be the guy who continues to let it take a hit

[teegre]

He wants more guaranteed money and more money up front than the Steelers have offered.

100% he does.

--two knee injuries
--a torn groin
--the life-expectancy of a RB is 2.5 years
--Bell is on his way to doubling that life-expectancy

One bad step, one late hit, one slip on a patch of ice... and his career could be over.

SUMMATION:
Bell cares little about the $60 million that he "could" get (because, he most likely won't get all of it); he wants as much money as possible up front (for all of the aforementioned reasons).

[Dwinsgames]

what Bell just may end up realizing is ...

He should have taken the money !

he most likely will not get another offer as good next year in a city that has a lot less success ..

that is providing he stays clean and does not suffer yet another injury between now and then

[teegre]

what Bell just may end up realizing is ...

He should have taken the money !

he most likely will not get another offer as good next year in a city that has a lot less success ..

that is providing he stays clean and does not suffer yet another injury between now and then

Not only that... but, the Steelers can franchise tag him again (for cheaper than the contract that they offered).

"Run the the wheels off of him" for two years / $24 million... and then let him walk.

[AtlantaDan]

Not only that... but, the Steelers can franchise tag him again (for cheaper than the contract that they offered).

"Run the the wheels off of him" for two years / $24 million... and then let him walk.

Yep - it's a business

[Dwinsgames]

Not only that... but, the Steelers can franchise tag him again (for cheaper than the contract that they offered).

"Run the the wheels off of him" for two years / $24 million... and then let him walk.

true ...

[Mojouw]

Bell is "worth" 12-15 per year. But that's QB and WR money. Never gonna hit that as a back because their careers are too fragile.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DesertSteel]

Not only that... but, the Steelers can franchise tag him again (for cheaper than the contract that they offered).

"Run the the wheels off of him" for two years / $24 million... and then let him walk.

Agree. But I think the total number would be $26M, as it bumps to $14M next year.

[fansince'76]

They have the GOAT.

https://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/screen-shot-2017-02-07-at-10-25-53-am.png?w=600&h=396

:chuckle:

On a serious note, I find the "GOAT" BS as tiresome as I find the "elite" QB/WR/RB/CB/LT/DT/DE/OLB/ILB/SS/FS BS.

[teegre]

Agree. But I think the total number would be $26M, as it bumps to $14M next year.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9d7oG4WTyY&app=desktop

[BlackAndGold]

https://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/screen-shot-2017-02-07-at-10-25-53-am.png?w=600&h=396

:chuckle:

On a serious note, I find the "GOAT" BS as tiresome as I find the "elite" QB/WR/RB/CB/LT/DT/DE/OLB/ILB/SS/FS BS.

Oh I do also, I've only used the "GOAT" phrase for one person(Michael Jordan for basketball) until this past season. I have a strong dislike for the Pats(All Boston Fans can go **** themselves), but I can't deny Brady's greatness anymore.

Now I'm hoping the Steelers end the Pats this upcoming season.

[Mojouw]

GOAT = Ali.

But Jordan and Brady get to be in the conversation as well!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[steelerdude15]

But this of course is not just for himself - it is for all running backs :rolleyes:

If I were Le'Veon, I wouldn't even worry about other player's salaries at that position. Let them deal with it.

[Born2Steel]

100% he does.

--two knee injuries
--a torn groin
--the life-expectancy of a RB is 2.5 years
--Bell is on his way to doubling that life-expectancy

One bad step, one late hit, one slip on a patch of ice... and his career could be over.

SUMMATION:
Bell cares little about the $60 million that he "could" get (because, he most likely won't get all of it); he wants as much money as possible up front (for all of the aforementioned reasons).

On one hand, as a supporter of the players, the reasons you posted are the very reasons I want Bell to get is total worth. Not just the market value. But, those are also the reasons I CANNOT see signing him to a big guaranteed money contract. Sure, the rest of the players run the same risks, ask Golson, but Bell holds both the most valuable player, and the most injury risk all in one. He should be paid as this team's #1 weapon. I don't believe he should get paid up front though. Without using actual numbers, I would love to see; a) A large signing bonus, b) The largest contract for a RB, c) The lion's share of his contract is paid over years and incentives. This way he's locked in with us, gets a huge payday up front, yet most of his money he still has to put in a lot of effort and work for. AND, I believe that's probably the same thing most on here are thinking also.

[AtlantaDan]

If I were Le'Veon, I wouldn't even worry about other player's salaries at that position. Let them deal with it.

I highly doubt Bell gives a rip about other running backs except to the extent their salaries are a benchmark for what he should be paid. Saying it is about the market for running backs allows him to try for some PR points by claiming this is not just about him seeking to max out his salary.

There is nothing wrong with self-interest when it comes to getting paid in pro sports anymore than any other occupation, but Bell knows many fans get tied up in knots about professional athletes seeking to cash in when those same fans would do the same if they had the opportunity to do so.

[DesertSteel]

On one hand, as a supporter of the players, the reasons you posted are the very reasons I want Bell to get is total worth. Not just the market value. But, those are also the reasons I CANNOT see signing him to a big guaranteed money contract. Sure, the rest of the players run the same risks, ask Golson, but Bell holds both the most valuable player, and the most injury risk all in one. He should be paid as this team's #1 weapon. I don't believe he should get paid up front though. Without using actual numbers, I would love to see; a) A large signing bonus, b) The largest contract for a RB, c) The lion's share of his contract is paid over years and incentives. This way he's locked in with us, gets a huge payday up front, yet most of his money he still has to put in a lot of effort and work for. AND, I believe that's probably the same thing most on here are thinking also.
Sounds great but he's wheels are likely gonna be off in 2-3 years. RB is not like WR or OL in terms of longevity. RBs have been devalued for a reason.

[Born2Steel]

Sounds great but he's wheels are likely gonna be off in 2-3 years. RB is not like WR or OL in terms of longevity. RBs have been devalued for a reason.

That is the risk exactly. And why I don't like the bulk of the money up front. To get the most out of his contract, he not only needs to be one of the best at his position, but also the most durable. Goes hand in hand. I see it as getting other-worldly money, with real-world demands and incentives.

[SteelMayhem72]

The deal i just heard that they offered him was pretty high and he probably should have took it. 14 million for 3 years! Don't know about guaranteed money they offered but he wont get anywhere near 14 million on the open market if we let him go after this year. Just heard this on NFL radio

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

[Born2Steel]

The deal i just heard that they offered him was pretty high and he probably should have took it. 14 million for 3 years! Don't know about guaranteed money they offered but he wont get anywhere near 14 million on the open market if we let him go after this year. Just heard this on NFL radio

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

Was it $14M over 3 years, or $14M per year for 3 years? Less than $5M per year is crazy low, and $14M per year is too high, IMO.

[AtlantaDan]

Relatively upbeat assessment on the consequences of Bell not signing in the Washington Post

Bell is one of the few running backs who remains a difference maker. The Steelers seem to know that, and they appear intent upon trying to get a deal done with him. They struck a deal with wide receiver Antonio Brown (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/02/27/steelers-make-antonio-brown-nfls-highest-paid-wide-receiver/?utm_term=.cfe71c62a052) earlier this offseason. That deal took longer to come together than Brown wanted, but the Steelers got it done.

They probably will do the same with Bell. It won’t be precisely on the timetable that Bell wants, and it won’t be for precisely the terms he’s seeking. But the Steelers are all about stability. They want to keep Bell and Brown together with quarterback Ben Roethlisberger and take a few more shots at unseating the New England Patriots for AFC supremacy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2017/07/18/despite-not-being-signed-long-term-leveon-bell-could-still-be-in-steelers-plans/?utm_term=.32e797320479

Of course anything looks better than how Washington has botched Kirk Cousins getting franchise tag $$ two years in a row

Some offseason, Washington Redskins. It began with a team official anonymously detailing Scot McCloughan’s alcohol abuse to justify firing the popular general manager. And it ended Monday afternoon with Bruce Allen, the team president and director of deception, breaking policy and common NFL courtesy, releasing the details of a failed contract negotiation with quarterback Kirk Cousins and demolishing a relationship’s trust just to combat a little criticism.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/first-bruce-allen-made-the-kirk-cousins-situation-bad-then-he-made-it-worse/2017/07/17/e259d444-6b1f-11e7-b9e2-2056e768a7e5_story.html?utm_term=.d5a249719fd2

When you look at front office/ownership situations for teams like Cleveland and Washington you are reminded how fortunate Steelers fans are

[DesertSteel]

Chances are that Bell will go down at some point this year and the silver lining on that would be that they can see what Conner has. If he shows he's got the ability over a 2-4 game stretch, that reduces the need for paying Bell $12M a year.

[AtlantaDan]

Some brutal observations on Bell from Joe Starkey of the P-G

He has yet to start and finish the same season. He’s coming off groin surgery, which came a year after knee surgery. He’s been suspended twice. He has participated meaningfully in two of the Steelers’ five playoff games during his career....

Including playoffs, the Steelers have played 70 games since they drafted Le’Veon Bell. He has played in 50 of them. Actually, if you strike last year’s AFC title game, and you really should, Bell has participated meaningfully in 49 of those 70....

If he retired this instant, the following sentence could easily kick off his football obituary: “Le’Veon Bell, who set records when active but twice was suspended by the NFL, missed 30 percent of his team’s games and never finished the playoffs healthy, retired from football today … “

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/joe-starkey/2017/07/18/joe-starkey-mailbag-le-veon-bell-contract-franchise-tag-steelers-nfl/stories/201707180109

[Dwinsgames]

bottom line is truly this IMO

you have a guy who has missed roughly 30% of the teams games since he was drafted either to injury or suspension and he is offered 4 million dollars a year MORE than the next highest paid guy at his craft and he turns it down ....

he is an idiot

https://twitter.com/TomPelissero/status/887335623320797185

[tube517]

Good move, Steelers.

I'll worry about his status after the postseason.


For now, he's still a Steeler and it's time to focus on getting that Lombardi. Put up or STFU.

[Born2Steel]

bottom line is truly this IMO

you have a guy who has missed roughly 30% of the teams games since he was drafted either to injury or suspension and he is offered 4 million dollars a year MORE than the next highest paid guy at his craft and he turns it down ....

he is an idiot

https://twitter.com/TomPelissero/status/887335623320797185

I hope for that $12.1M tag he earns OPY, Playoffs MVP, and SB MVP. Then next season he gets $45M over 3 years extension. And as I said previously, incentive laden like crazy. I hope his upper potential hasn't even been realized yet.

[Dwinsgames]

I hope for that $12.1M tag he earns OPY, Playoffs MVP, and SB MVP. Then next season he gets $45M over 3 years extension. And as I said previously, incentive laden like crazy. I hope his upper potential hasn't even been realized yet.

at his current tag price that could yield you Lesean McCoy and Matt Forte ... that is a lot of talent ..

who here wouldnt rather have them BOTH vs 1 Bell

not a fan of one of those guys ok fine ....

pick one of this group ( and one of the next or 3 maybe even 4 of the next group if you pass on group 1 ) that is how absurdly over paid Bell is at 12 million a year and its not enough for him in his eyes


group 1
LeSean McCoy
(https://overthecap.com/player/lesean-mccoy/761/)Doug Martin
(https://overthecap.com/player/doug-martin/339/)Lamar Miller (https://overthecap.com/player/lamar-miller/705/)
(https://overthecap.com/player/lesean-mccoy/761/) DeMarco Murray (https://overthecap.com/player/demarco-murray/621/)
Chris Ivory (https://overthecap.com/player/chris-ivory/1430/)

group 2
Giovani Bernard (https://overthecap.com/player/giovani-bernard/2247/)
Latavius Murray (https://overthecap.com/player/latavius-murray/2334/)
Darren Sproles (https://overthecap.com/player/darren-sproles/1488/)
Marshawn Lynch (https://overthecap.com/player/marshawn-lynch/1557/)
Eddie Lacy (https://overthecap.com/player/eddie-lacy/2389/)
Mark Ingram (https://overthecap.com/player/mark-ingram/1511/)
Matt Forte (https://overthecap.com/player/matt-forte/141/)
Jonathan Stewart (https://overthecap.com/player/jonathan-stewart/1175/)
Adrian Peterson (https://overthecap.com/player/adrian-peterson/1753/)
Jamaal Charles

(https://overthecap.com/player/jamaal-charles/507/)

https://overthecap.com/position/running-back/

[DesertSteel]

at his current tag price that could yield you Lesean McCoy and Matt Forte ... that is a lot of talent ..

who here wouldnt rather have them BOTH vs 1 Bell

not a fan of one of those guys ok fine ....

pick one of this group ( and one of the next or 3 maybe even 4 of the next group if you pass on group 1 ) that is how absurdly over paid Bell is at 12 million a year and its not enough for him in his eyes


group 1
LeSean McCoy
(https://overthecap.com/player/lesean-mccoy/761/)Doug Martin
(https://overthecap.com/player/doug-martin/339/)Lamar Miller (https://overthecap.com/player/lamar-miller/705/)
(https://overthecap.com/player/lesean-mccoy/761/) DeMarco Murray (https://overthecap.com/player/demarco-murray/621/)
Chris Ivory (https://overthecap.com/player/chris-ivory/1430/)

group 2
Giovani Bernard (https://overthecap.com/player/giovani-bernard/2247/)
Latavius Murray (https://overthecap.com/player/latavius-murray/2334/)
Darren Sproles (https://overthecap.com/player/darren-sproles/1488/)
Marshawn Lynch (https://overthecap.com/player/marshawn-lynch/1557/)
Eddie Lacy (https://overthecap.com/player/eddie-lacy/2389/)
Mark Ingram (https://overthecap.com/player/mark-ingram/1511/)
Matt Forte (https://overthecap.com/player/matt-forte/141/)
Jonathan Stewart (https://overthecap.com/player/jonathan-stewart/1175/)
Adrian Peterson (https://overthecap.com/player/adrian-peterson/1753/)
Jamaal Charles

(https://overthecap.com/player/jamaal-charles/507/)

https://overthecap.com/position/running-back/
Only 2-3 of those guys are above average. You could replace every one of them at this point of their careers through the draft. McCoy and Peterson are at the end of their careers.

I'd rather see what Conner has than just about anyone on that list.

[Dwinsgames]

Only 2-3 of those guys are above average. You could replace every one of them at this point of their careers through the draft. McCoy and Peterson are at the end of their careers.

I'd rather see what Conner has than just about anyone on that list.


I did not include guys who are on first contracts because we would have first had to have drafted them ...

the link to over the cap has a more comprehensive look at how disproportionate his salary is

[Born2Steel]

at his current tag price that could yield you Lesean McCoy and Matt Forte ... that is a lot of talent ..

who here wouldnt rather have them BOTH vs 1 Bell

not a fan of one of those guys ok fine ....

pick one of this group ( and one of the next or 3 maybe even 4 of the next group if you pass on group 1 ) that is how absurdly over paid Bell is at 12 million a year and its not enough for him in his eyes


group 1
LeSean McCoy
(https://overthecap.com/player/lesean-mccoy/761/)Doug Martin
(https://overthecap.com/player/doug-martin/339/)Lamar Miller (https://overthecap.com/player/lamar-miller/705/)
(https://overthecap.com/player/lesean-mccoy/761/) DeMarco Murray (https://overthecap.com/player/demarco-murray/621/)
Chris Ivory (https://overthecap.com/player/chris-ivory/1430/)

group 2
Giovani Bernard (https://overthecap.com/player/giovani-bernard/2247/)
Latavius Murray (https://overthecap.com/player/latavius-murray/2334/)
Darren Sproles (https://overthecap.com/player/darren-sproles/1488/)
Marshawn Lynch (https://overthecap.com/player/marshawn-lynch/1557/)
Eddie Lacy (https://overthecap.com/player/eddie-lacy/2389/)
Mark Ingram (https://overthecap.com/player/mark-ingram/1511/)
Matt Forte (https://overthecap.com/player/matt-forte/141/)
Jonathan Stewart (https://overthecap.com/player/jonathan-stewart/1175/)
Adrian Peterson (https://overthecap.com/player/adrian-peterson/1753/)
Jamaal Charles

(https://overthecap.com/player/jamaal-charles/507/)

https://overthecap.com/position/running-back/

Bell is worth ANY 2 of those backs. In their prime, maybe McCoy or Charles. None of the rest bring what Bell brings in 1 body.

[ALLD]

Bell's availability is what's lacking, not talent. He strikes me as somebody who wants $15-$20 million per season guaranteed and will go down in Week 7. Then he will get fat like Woodley and we would eat a lot of cap space trying to unload him on another team.

[Dwinsgames]

Bell is worth ANY 2 of those backs. In their prime, maybe McCoy or Charles. None of the rest bring what Bell brings in 1 body.

I guess its all in how you want to look at it ... Shady McCoy averaged 5.4 YPC last year while rushing for nearly 1300 yards in 15 games behind a far lessor line than we have and a lessor QB at the helm allowing teams to stack the box vs him more often

for me its not about 5 years from now because Bell very well could be out of the league before then himself , its about Bens shrinking window

I would easily take McCoy and Matt Forte over 1 Bell

I then have proven built in quality depth and change in my pocket to spend

[ALLD]

Bell is watching too many of his highlight reels and forgetting his big Incomplete in MVPs and SBs.

[lipps83]

Waste of money this guy would be. I would rather upgrade another area of the team than dump that much money into a position that is becoming irrelevant.

And yes, Bell is best back in the league.

When was the last time 'best back in league' led a team to the super bowl? When was the last time 'best back in the league' was even on the super bowl winning team?

It's been a long, long, long time.

Bell is worth it if you want to sell a bunch of jerseys.

[Mach1]

Le'Veon Bell turns down more than $12M per year from Steelers

Considering his comments in the last 24 hours, it is clear any new contract offer to Le’Veon Bell before the deadline would have needed to set a new financial standard for running backs in the NFL. However, if the sources of NFL Network reporter Tom Pelissero are to be believed, that is exactly what the Pittsburgh Steelers tried to do.

Should these figures prove to be correct, there can be little doubt Bell is betting on himself to have a huge season in 2017 and possibly clean up on the open market. Some might now wonder how serious he really was when he rapped “I’m a need 15 a year and they know this.”

An offer of $30 million over the first two years is more than Bell will be able to earn in the same time frame if the Steelers opt to franchise tag him again in 2018. While there is no mention of signing bonus amounts or the guarantees attached to the deal, the signing bonus would presumably have been around the $12 million to $15 million mark based on those numbers, with expected partial guarantees in the form of roster bonuses in the second and possibly third years. Ian Rapoport is reporting the deal was for five years.

Paying Bell $42 million over three years works out to an average of $14 million a season to that point, a figure that unquestionably would have set new ground for a floundering running back market.

These numbers suggest Pittsburgh offered far more than many observers expected, with the media predicting amounts that would average out to $10 million a year. If these figures are correct, Bell’s rejection of this deal is something of a surprise to the salary cap experts.
http://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2017/07/18/report-rb-leveon-bell-rejects-a-steelers-offer-in-excess-of-12m-per-year/

[BurghBoy412]

Spending on the Defense, especially on the secondary seems to be a more effective championship winning strategy. I would point to a recent Denver team as the example. A team with an over the hill QB and mediocre running backs.

"12 game" isn't going to change the trend of saving the money on RB's and using it on other positions.

[SteelMayhem72]

Was it $14M over 3 years, or $14M per year for 3 years? Less than $5M per year is crazy low, and $14M per year is too high, IMO.3 years 42 million is what they said which depending on what the guaranteed amount was he was crazy for not signing that deal

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

[salamander]

If that's what the Steelers offered Bell then he really is full of himself and a dumbass.

[BlackAndGold]

Good move, Steelers.

I'll worry about his status after the postseason.


For now, he's still a Steeler and it's time to focus on getting that Lombardi. Put up or STFU.

This, there is no need to be pissed at Bell for wanting to gamble on himself. He will be a Steeler opening day, that's all that matters. Especially with the questions surrounding Ben and his playing future, this could be the last chance at a SB.

They'll re-do these contract talks after the season.

[SteelMayhem72]

So instead of making 15 million the first 2 years of the 3 year deal he is gonna play instead the 12.1 million franchise tag... Im sorry but this dude is an idiot and to be honest after this year either franchise him one more year then be done with him

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

[Butch]

Hearing the numbers and his unwillingness to sign can't help but wonder how much of an influence sucker punch must be in this process. IMHO he's showing he doesn't really want to be here any more than he has to be. Run the hell out of him the next 2 years and be done with him.

[Steeldude]

Do a Herschel Walker trade with a gullible team.

[steelerdude15]

Waste of money this guy would be. I would rather upgrade another area of the team than dump that much money into a position that is becoming irrelevant.

And yes, Bell is best back in the league.

When was the last time 'best back in league' led a team to the super bowl? When was the last time 'best back in the league' was even on the super bowl winning team?

It's been a long, long, long time.

Bell is worth it if you want to sell a bunch of jerseys.

Someone could make an argument that when the Seahawks won the Super Bowl a few years ago, they had Marshawn Lynch who was a great to elite running back during that time period.

[tube517]

Just curious: How would this board (and Steeler Nation) react if Bell shows up during training camp (he doesn't have to) and Villanueva does not show up?

[steelerdude15]

Just curious: How would this board (and Steeler Nation) react if Bell shows up during training camp (he doesn't have to) and Villanueva does not show up?

I bet the negative reactions would be far less.

A lot of people on social media and this board are bashing Le'Veon right now for not signing a new contract, but imagine would it might be like if he's late or doesn't show up for training camp.

If Villanueva was late or wouldn't show up to training camp at all, there might be a few grumbles, but I think it wouldn't be anywhere near the criticism Le'Veon would receive.

[Iron Steeler]

How many rings did you win us?

[AtlantaDan]

Just curious: How would this board (and Steeler Nation) react if Bell shows up during training camp (he doesn't have to) and Villanueva does not show up?

Nowhere near the outrage from Steeler Nation that will be voiced if Villanueva shows up and Bell does not - lots to unpack about what would drive that

Of course players do not give a rip what fans think - what will be more interesting is if Ben would say about Villanueva not showing up July 27 what he said about Bell when Bell was a no show for OTAs

[steel striker]

Yes Bell is the best RB in the league and, yes the Steelers ran the wheels off of him last year as well.

[86WARD]

Just curious: How would this board (and Steeler Nation) react if Bell shows up during training camp (he doesn't have to) and Villanueva does not show up?

Bell is a veteran so he probably doesn't need to show up...however, how many games has Ben, Bell, Brown and Bryant played together? 12-13...something like that? Bell needs to be in camp.

[Mojouw]

Thoughts (for what they are worth):

1. The Steelers made a savvy and fair offer. Would love to hear the actual guaranteed cash #'s. Maybe it was $45 over 3 years but with only $10.5 million guaranteed. That is the almost certainly the real # that Bell and the Steelers were apart on.

2. Bell is also making a smart bet. He can earn about $27 million in the next two years. Hit the open market at 27 and have some team decide that (after 2 more years of cap increases!) that $16 million per year for 3 years is a totally sound investment for the new "engine" of their offense. Obviously, that is a major gamble. Bell has to stay healthy for 2 full seasons, perform at a high level, and hope that a team doesn't just want to draft and develop a RB.

3. I honestly believe the RB position is going to experience a major upswing in league wide valuation. Everyone wants to move back to one back who can do it all - Bell, Johnson in Arizona, almost all of the young RBs drafted high in the past two classes were projected to be runners and receivers. Long story short - first round draft picks get paid. Bell represents the leading edge of that curve.

4. That list of other RBs that a team can have a few of for Bell's proposed cap hit - well I wouldn't sign any of those guys for the next 3 years at all. That is a list of either back with limited roles or reaching the end of their careers. I would rather pay Bell all of the franchise money than roll the dice that McCoy stays healthy or that a fork won't appear in Forte's back any day now. Father time remains undefeated.

[Mojouw]

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/nfl-pittsburgh-steelers-news/2017/7/19/15994860/steelers-rejected-5-year-offer-to-leveon-bell-released-to-the-public-franchise-tag

Really nice breakdown of Bell's side of the coin.

It needs to be remember that there is a likely a dirtball agent in all of this to. The agent does not really care about the player (maybe a bit) - they just care about getting that total # as high as possible so their % is as much as possible.

[Born2Steel]

Just curious: How would this board (and Steeler Nation) react if Bell shows up during training camp (he doesn't have to) and Villanueva does not show up?

Colbert already said Bell won't see much, if any, contact at TC. They want to make sure Bell is 100% for week 1. If Bell doesn't show at TC, it doesn't mean it's contract related. Doesn't mean it isn't either.

If AV doesn't show, that's going to be placed directly on his contract talks.

[steelreserve]

If the offer really was 3y/$42M, Bell is an idiot for not signing it. Even if there were zero dollars guaranteed, they are not gonna cut him before the first year, so actually there is more money "guaranteed" than there is under the franchise tag.

If he really is holding out to be the first $15M-a-year running back, that's just stupid because it's not going to happen, not here, not anywhere. Just too much for any one player who's not a quarterback.

He wants to get into a separate discussion about why the pay cap for a good RB is less than that of a good player at a lower-impact position like a TE or a lineman, that's one thing. (yes, before we start down that road, I do believe a good RB has more of an impact over an average RB than a good lineman has over an average lineman, but not really the point here.) But it is not going to change just for him right now. And he was offered more than that anyway, so I guess it actually did change.



Bell would need to be high not to sign.

... which is not out of the realm of possiblity ...



They have the GOAT.

The Patriots signed Joe Montana?

[st33lersguy]

Honestly, Bell is an idiot for turning down that deal. If he wants to be selfish and break a team's salary cap, he'll probably have to break some other team's salary cap. At this point trading him for a boatload of high draft picks or for a star defensive back or ILB isn't the worst idea in the world

[AtlantaDan]

Just curious: How would this board (and Steeler Nation) react if Bell shows up during training camp (he doesn't have to) and Villanueva does not show up?

Why not both stay out? Hot take here

Le'Veon Bell and Alejandro Villanueva should skip camp

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/zeise-is-right/2017/07/19/leveon-bell-contract-alejandro-villanueva-extension-pittsburgh-steelers-training-camp/stories/201707190133

:willy:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DErOM2tIfwM

[ALLD]

I can only think that not signing, Bell is communicating he wants a trade. Why would somebody take less $ as a tag unless there were other performance/behavior clauses? Bell is the best RB on the field when he plays, but not in his last game.

Didn't he learn anything from that one-trick WR we had named Mike that turned down $50million? What an idiot! Use him up in 2 years and let some other team have what's left.

[Mojouw]

Bell may NOT have turned down more money to play under the tag. The tag is guaranteed cash. He gets it no matter what.

Look at AB's most recent deal. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/antonio-brown-6702/

It is 4 years 68 million dollars - so about $17 million per year. But ONLY (I know right?!) $19 million is guaranteed cash.

This has been the Steelers new model for signing guys. They are only willing to guarantee the signing bonus and then basically it is a year to year thing for the most part.

This chart brings it a bit more into focus - http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/wide-receiver/

I can't find a non-rookie contract WR that is playing for less of a % of contract money guaranteed.

Taking a look at RBs - http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/running-back/

Top end of the pay scale is $7-8 million per year with about 40-45% of the total contract guaranteed money.

Doing the math for Bell he would need to have had roughly 62% of that 3 year 42 million dollar deal guaranteed in order to break even on what he can make on the tag the next two seasons (26/42=.619). While it has not been reported, I think we can safely assume that the Steelers were not offering to guarantee almost 2/3 of Bell's contract. This ends up being a pretty simple math problem for Bell. Say the Steelers were willing to guarantee 40% of the deal, that works out to about $16.8 million that the Steelers would likely pay out as a signing bonus. That means Bell would have to leave around $9 million in change on the table for the first 2 years of the deal and gamble that he can make it up on the back end by playing out years 3 and 4 at full value.

I'm certain that I am overlooking many intricacies and such of the cap math in this rough analysis, but I'm betting I'm close enough. Whether we like it or not, Bell's extension from the Steelers was asking him to potentially leave money on the table. Due to RB career arcs, this is Bell' s one and only big contract - no way he leaves cash out there.

[tube517]

Why not both stay out? Hot take here

Le'Veon Bell and Alejandro Villanueva should skip camp

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/zeise-is-right/2017/07/19/leveon-bell-contract-alejandro-villanueva-extension-pittsburgh-steelers-training-camp/stories/201707190133

:willy:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DErOM2tIfwM

LOL @ the airplane video.

Unfortunately, PPG won't let me open links anymore because I use an ad blocker. Even if i turn it off, it still comes up w/the ad blocker page.

Oh well.

[Butch]

I could be wrong but my money is on him playing with the cheats before all is said and done

[vasteeler]

I could be wrong but my money is on him playing with the cheats before all is said and done

You should be banned for just the suggestion:chuckle:

[ALLD]

Is he pulling a Max Starks? He needs to play to collect and if he exceeds his tag then he will have left money on the table too because he is not likely to have a 10-year career in the NFL. Bryant might be gone before LB, but Bell will surely follow if a new deal is not done next year, if he lasts and is not suspended.

[AtlantaDan]

I could be wrong but my money is on him playing with the cheats before all is said and done

He will go wherever he is paid the most $$$, which usually involves lousy teams overpaying

Nothing wrong with that, but Bell does not strike me as the kind of player to leave money on the table to play with a more competitive team - he does not seem like a Franco or Bettis type back who will be cashing checks with a decade long career

[86WARD]

He tells Ike Taylor he wants to be paid as a #1 RB and #2 WR? Lol. Bye bye in 2019.

[AtlantaDan]

He tells Ike Taylor he wants to be paid as a #1 RB and #2 WR? Lol. Bye bye in 2019.

887824708015706112

:hatsoff:to 86WARD for passing along the tip on Ike's comments

[SteelMayhem72]

If the offer really was 3y/$42M, Bell is an idiot for not signing it. Even if there were zero dollars guaranteed, they are not gonna cut him before the first year, so actually there is more money "guaranteed" than there is under the franchise tag.

If he really is holding out to be the first $15M-a-year running back, that's just stupid because it's not going to happen, not here, not anywhere. Just too much for any one player who's not a quarterback.

He wants to get into a separate discussion about why the pay cap for a good RB is less than that of a good player at a lower-impact position like a TE or a lineman, that's one thing. (yes, before we start down that road, I do believe a good RB has more of an impact over an average RB than a good lineman has over an average lineman, but not really the point here.) But it is not going to change just for him right now. And he was offered more than that anyway, so I guess it actually did change.




... which is not out of the realm of possiblity ...




The Patriots signed Joe Montana?Spot on assessment... Totally agree!!

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

[SteelMayhem72]

I could be wrong but my money is on him playing with the cheats before all is said and doneWell all bellicheat does gush all over him when they ask him about bell

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

[Dwinsgames]

887824708015706112

:hatsoff:to 86WARD for passing along the tip on Ike's comments


wish in one hand ....shit in the other and see which one happens first is all I can tell him

[st33lersguy]

887824708015706112

:hatsoff:to 86WARD for passing along the tip on Ike's comments

They wanted to pay you like a no. 1 RB and you said no.

[Butch]

He will go wherever he is paid the most $$$, which usually involves lousy teams overpaying

Nothing wrong with that, but Bell does not strike me as the kind of player to leave money on the table to play with a more competitive team - he does not seem like a Franco or Bettis type back who will be cashing checks with a decade long career

While that may be true, I still believe that Sucker punch was and still is a BIG influence on him. If he leaves for money then so be it, but my gut tells me something different. I don't know who selected Sucker punch to be a Steeler but that alone is going to be the single most horrific free agent pick ever.

[BurghBoy412]

Can the team tag him for 3 consecutive seasons?

[DesertSteel]

Can the team tag him for 3 consecutive seasons?
No but they can transition tag him the third year which allows them to match any offer and be compensated if he signs elsewhere.

[86WARD]

No but they can transition tag him the third year which allows them to match any offer and be compensated if he signs elsewhere.

I thought the transition tag leaves them nothing if they refuse to sign him. The Non-Exclusive Franchise tag is where they get compensated...no?

[salamander]

Came across this:

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/platform/amp/nfl-pittsburgh-steelers-news/2017/7/19/15994860/steelers-rejected-5-year-offer-to-leveon-bell-released-to-the-public-franchise-tag

[86WARD]

Not that they would, but that article makes it sound like they can't negotiate a long term deal until after this season?

[tube517]

Not that they would, but that article makes it sound like they can't negotiate a long term deal until after this season?

Yep, that was the rush to try and beat the deadline. They can't do any negotiations until after the 2017 season is over

[Dwinsgames]

Not that they would, but that article makes it sound like they can't negotiate a long term deal until after this season?

whats left to negotiate though , we know what he wants and its so far out of the realm of possibility the only thing left to do is laugh at his joke of demands of self worth ....

the deadline was to get a long term deal done before the Tag officially kicks in ...

Ike suggests he MIGHT hold out and really make a statement ... since the tag is unsigned wondering if we can rescind it if it lingers into the season ??

I want this team focused on winning not on what Bell is doing ..last thing we need is a distraction

[Dwinsgames]

1. The formula has changed.
Under prior labor deals, the non-exclusive franchise tag was determined by calculating the average of the five highest-paid players at each position from the prior year. Under the 2011 CBA, the franchise tenders come from a more complex procedure.
Under Article 10, Section 2 of the CBA, the number is based on the five-year average cap percentage for the tag at each position.
So it’s no longer driven by what players at the same position made in the prior season, but by the average cap percentage consumed by the franchise tender over five years. Then, that percentage will be applied to the 2013 salary cap to determine the franchise tender at each position.
Already confused? We’ve got nine more.
2. In some cases, the formula doesn’t matter.
A player getting the non-exclusive franchise tag is entitled to the greater of the formula clumsily explained above (and that was the fourth draft of it) or 120 percent of the player’s cap number from the prior year.
That’s why, for example, the franchise tender for Dolphins tackle Jake Long (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4712/jake-long) would be much higher than the franchise tender for an offensive lineman. Long made enough in 2012 to result in a 20-percent raise, trumping the franchise tender.
This dynamic often applies to players who were taken high in the draft before the implementation of the rookie wage scale. As rookie contracts expire under the new labor deal, franchise tenders for many of them will be lower.
3. The transition tag has become meaningless.
Teams can use, in any given year, one franchise tag or one transition tag. The transition tag gives a team the right to match an offer sheet, but no compensation if the team chooses not to match.
At one point, the transition player’s contract was not fully guaranteed once it was accepted by the player. It now is.
The fact that the guaranteed pay on the one-year transition tender isn’t much less than the guaranteed pay for the one-year franchise tender, coupled with the lack of draft-pick compensation, has made the transition tag largely meaningless.
4. Franchise tags can be withdrawn.
The amount of the franchise tender becomes fully guaranteed once the player signs it. Since signing the franchise tender puts the player under contract, requiring him to show up to all mandatory offseason activities and training camp, some players choose to wait deep into the preseason before inking the offer.
The risk is that the franchise tag can be withdrawn, at any time, before it has been signed.
It doesn’t happen often, but it’s not unprecedented. Especially in Philly. In 2002, the Eagles pulled the franchise tag from linebacker Jeremiah Trotter in early April. Three years later, the Eagles removed the franchise tag from defensive tackle Corey Simon in late August.
The move immediately converts the player to an unrestricted free agent. But if it comes after the big money has been spent, the player will have a hard time getting the pay day he would have realized on the first day of free agency.
5. Franchise tender is guaranteed, with one exception.
Once a player signs the franchise tag, the one-year salary becomes fully guaranteed. But there’s a little-known exception.
Under Article 10, Section 2(c) of the CBA, the contract can be terminated if the player fails “to establish or maintain his excellent physical condition.”
Any effort to do so would result in a review of the situation by a neutral physician and, eventually and inevitably, arbitration. Still, the franchise tender technically isn’t fully and completely guaranteed.
6. No non-quarterback will be tagged more than twice.
Former Seahawks tackle Walter Jones once spent three straight years under the franchise tag, pocketing a total of $20 million and then signing a long-term deal that paid him $20 million more guaranteed, back when $20 million was a very big deal for NFL purposes.
Jones rolled the dice on bearing the injury risk for the three franchise years, and he won. Most players prefer the certainty of a long-term deal.
That’s why the 2006 CBA changed the formula to pay a non-quarterback the quarterback franchise tender if he’s tagged a third time.
Quarterbacks are protected, too. In the third year of the franchise tag, they get at least a 44-percent raise over their cap number in the prior year.
7. Arguably, no player can be tagged more than three times.
Last year’s grievance filed by Saints quarterback Drew Brees (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/591/drew-brees) established that, if a player is tagged once by two different teams, it counts as being tagged twice. Which would have entitled him to a 44-percent raise in 2013, if he had played under the franchise tag last year for the Saints. (He was tagged in 2005 by the Chargers.)
Based on the language of the CBA, there’s an argument to be made that no player may ever be tagged more than three times during the course of his career.
Of course, tagging a player a fourth time would entail paying out a second 44-percent raise one year after paying out an initial 44-percent raise. Which would make it highly unlikely that any team would ever want to use the tag more than three times.
8. It’s cheap to tag kickers and punters.
There’s a belief among some fans that the use of the franchise tag meant that the player was a “franchise player.” And so, when a team uses the tag on a punter or a kicker, fans are confused and/or amused.
But the formula for calculating franchise tenders has made it cheaper to use the tag than to sign the player to a market-value deal.
At $2.9 million for 2013, more kickers and punters could find themselves being regarded as “franchise players.”
9. Long-term deals can be negotiated, through July 15.
Previously, the window for a team signing its franchise player to a long-term deal closed not long after the free-agency period started and then opened again on July 15. Now, the window remains open until July 15.
After July 15, the franchise player can sign only a one-year deal with his current team. It can be for more than the franchise tender, and it can include other terms, like playing-time or performance triggers that would prevent the tag from being used again.
But the duration can be no more than one year.
10. One offer sheet may be signed, through July 15.
For a player carrying the non-exclusive tag, he can negotiate with any other team. Ultimately, one offer sheet can be signed.
Once it’s signed, the situation simplifies considerably. The player’s current team will match the offer and keep him, or the player’s team will not match the offer and collect a pair of first-round picks from the new team.
The two first-round picks given as compensation must be the team’s original picks — not any picks obtained via trade or otherwise.
And there’s a loophole which, eventually, a desperate coach or G.M. may use. The period for signing franchise players to offer sheets lingers beyond the current year’s draft. Thus, for example, a team that wants to sign quarterback Joe Flacco (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4677/joe-flacco) (if the Ravens use the non-exclusive tag) could, in theory, wait until after the draft, sign Flacco to a front-loaded offer sheet that the Ravens can’t match, and then surrender not the 2013 and 2014 first-round picks, but the first-round picks for 2014 and 2015.
There’s nothing in the labor deal that prevents this from happening until July 15, after which date the player can sign only a one-year deal with his current team.

[AtlantaDan]

whats left to negotiate though , we know what he wants and its so far out of the realm of possibility the only thing left to do is laugh at his joke of demands of self worth ....

the deadline was to get a long term deal done before the Tag officially kicks in ...

Bell was not kidding when he said in 2016 this was his contract demand

Bell released the single, titled "Focus," [last summer]. It references his three-game suspension for a marijuana arrest last year, his recovery from a torn MCL and the reason he plays football. He also addresses his upcoming free-agent status in 2017, for which he names a hefty price tag.

In the song, Bell drops the line, "I'm at the top and if not I'm the closest, Ima need 15 a year and they know this."

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/leveon-bell-rap-song-focus-lyrics-steelers/1sk3aiaqy5tam1nn71f48lvayo

Then there was this April Fools Day tweet that Bell later said was a "joke"

848177279666671619

Much of Bell's twitter feed is dedicated to his own wonderfulness - he definitely thinks he is getting screwed by getting paid $12 million this upcoming season

[DesertSteel]

If he holds out so be it. No different than a season ending injury or suspension that happens all the time. What these non-QBs need to learn is that not a one of them is bigger than the team. LB has a very inflated opinion of himself. He's really good, but good RBs are a dime a dozen. We can still win the Super Bowl without him, especially if the D steps up.

[Born2Steel]

Bell is gambling on Bell. I cannot blame him a bit. He will get just over $12M for this year, and if no deal gets done next offseason, stands to make over $14M for the '18 season.

If he gets injured, and/or suspended for any length of time, his stock drops. If he wins back to back SB MVPs, which is his goal obviously, his stock rises to QB money. Either way he pockets $26M for 2 seasons of work. It's risky, but it's all the leverage he has right now.

[86WARD]

Which is nothing if that's the route the Steelers want to take. I thought the deal Pittsburgh offered was fair. Not knowing exactly how it's structured, it's hard to say but they could put some bullshit bonuses in there to maybe get it up to $13.5/ year and say he's getting 11 as a RB and 2.5 as a WR. Or offer him 10M a season and give him 5M a year in WR bonuses...lol.

[SteelMayhem72]

whats left to negotiate though , we know what he wants and its so far out of the realm of possibility the only thing left to do is laugh at his joke of demands of self worth ....

the deadline was to get a long term deal done before the Tag officially kicks in ...

Ike suggests he MIGHT hold out and really make a statement ... since the tag is unsigned wondering if we can rescind it if it lingers into the season ??

I want this team focused on winning not on what Bell is doing ..last thing we need is a distractionI agree... If bell really wants to be hated in pittsburgh then it will be if he holds out indefinitely... Then just show him the door... Ben's window is almost shut and we dont need any 1 player making it all about himself... Dont know if its mandatory if he has to show up right at the first game or not

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

[Mojouw]

Problem is that whether or not Bell creates a three-ring circus level distraction, the Steelers do not win a SB w/out him this season. Too much of the rest of the offense is young and/or unsettled.

Both Bell and the Steelers are essentially stuck with each other for 2017 at the least.

If Bell chooses to hold-out for awhile that will stop if/when Connor starts ripping off runs in practice games.

[Shoes]

Bell's biggest challenge is staying healthy. His mouth can't help him here.

[DesertSteel]

Bell is gambling on Bell. I cannot blame him a bit. He will get just over $12M for this year, and if no deal gets done next offseason, stands to make over $14M for the '18 season.

If he gets injured, and/or suspended for any length of time, his stock drops. If he wins back to back SB MVPs, which is his goal obviously, his stock rises to QB money. Either way he pockets $26M for 2 seasons of work. It's risky, but it's all the leverage he has right now.
No team is going to reset the RB market at 20M+.

- - - Updated - - -


Problem is that whether or not Bell creates a three-ring circus level distraction, the Steelers do not win a SB w/out him this season. Too much of the rest of the offense is young and/or unsettled.

Both Bell and the Steelers are essentially stuck with each other for 2017 at the least.

If Bell chooses to hold-out for awhile that will stop if/when Connor starts ripping off runs in practice games.

That team can win the Super Bowl without any player sans Ben.

[steelreserve]

Bell is gambling on Bell. I cannot blame him a bit. He will get just over $12M for this year, and if no deal gets done next offseason, stands to make over $14M for the '18 season.

If he gets injured, and/or suspended for any length of time, his stock drops. If he wins back to back SB MVPs, which is his goal obviously, his stock rises to QB money. Either way he pockets $26M for 2 seasons of work. It's risky, but it's all the leverage he has right now.

I don't understand what he's gambling on, quite frankly. He stays healthy for all 16 games and has a 2,000-yard season - how much more can he get than what was already on the table?

We already offered him MVP money. Nobody is going to offer him significantly more than that. Salary norms for the position aside, it would just be impossible for most teams to do that at all. He basically got offered the max that you can make as a running back and turned it down. Maybe there wasn't enough guaranteed money for his liking, but there's no guaranteed money now, and his big payday isn't going to be any higher either. All risk, no reward. Stupid.

[Born2Steel]

I don't understand what he's gambling on, quite frankly. He stays healthy for all 16 games and has a 2,000-yard season - how much more can he get than what was already on the table?

We already offered him MVP money. Nobody is going to offer him significantly more than that. Salary norms for the position aside, it would just be impossible for most teams to do that at all. He basically got offered the max that you can make as a running back and turned it down. Maybe there wasn't enough guaranteed money for his liking, but there's no guaranteed money now, and his big payday isn't going to be any higher either. All risk, no reward. Stupid.

How do you know what the offer was? Has it been released? Most of us are guessing it came down to how much was guaranteed, not necessarily the total numbers. If Bell has a dominant season, he's more likely to get more in 'guaranteed money'. That is the gamble.

- - - Updated - - -


No team is going to reset the RB market at 20M+.

- - - Updated - - -



That team can win the Super Bowl without any player sans Ben.

OK, you got me on ACTUAL numbers. My point remains.

[Mojouw]

The AFCCG last season would beg to differ that Bell is not indispensable as this team is currently constituted.

If Ladarius Green had returned to health - then Bell is not as necessary.

If Connor is actually a year one NFL beast - then Bell is not as necessary.

If Bryant can stay sober and return to levels of dominance not seen since the heyday of Randy Moss - then Bell is not as necessary.

If Touissant was really any good - then Bell is not as necessary.

If Ayers, Hamilton, Rogers, Smith-Schuster were established reliable secondary weapons in the offense - then Bell wouldn't be as necessary.

Unfortunately, almost none of the above are true at this point. Currently, the entire offensive scheme is predicated on the presence of a legitimate deep threat and the almost league wide unique talents of Bell. It will take at least a season to transition away from Bell being the pivot point of the entire offense. His movement across the formation, his ability to perform WR and RB roles, as well as his RB skills drive many of the personnel groupings and are used on almost every play to force the defense into a series of bad decisions.

I think of it this way, could the Rams "Greatest Show on Turf" worked without Marshall Faulk? What about those Chargers teams built around Tomlinson? Sure, both needed darn good QBs as well, but when those two backs were missing both those offenses struggled badly.

[ALLD]

Bell would need to defy all odds of his track record in order and put up 2,000+ yards to receive a higher/better offer from the Steelers. He is not getting any younger either and we either ride on his back or he breaks down.

[Born2Steel]

Bell would need to defy all odds of his track record in order and put up 2,000+ yards to receive a higher/better offer from the Steelers. He is not getting any younger either and we either ride on his back or he breaks down.

Rushing yards alone, maybe. Bell is an all-purpose back and makes yards both on the ground and thru the air, and he totals around the 2000 yard mark.

[DesertSteel]

The AFCCG last season would beg to differ that Bell is not indispensable as this team is currently constituted.

There is no proof that we win or even get closer to winning with Bell in the game. Only speculation. I'm not minimizing Bell, but I'm also not putting him into the indispensable category. In the NFL, that role belongs solely to the QB.

[Born2Steel]

This offense goes thru Bell. He is either running the ball or receiving the ball or pass blocking his ass off on every offensive play. The Steelers offense lives and dies with Bell. Yes, Ben too, but Bell belongs in that category as well.

[Mojouw]

There is no proof that we win or even get closer to winning with Bell in the game. Only speculation. I'm not minimizing Bell, but I'm also not putting him into the indispensable category. In the NFL, that role belongs solely to the QB.

I am not certain how he can not be defined as such. Until another RB and another pass-catching option emerge and establish themselves on this offense, then Bell is the engine that drives the while thing. Of course it requires a QB to execute everything, but in the last 2 seasons, the offense has struggled severely when either Ben or Bell is not playing.

In 2016 Bell gained 72% of the total rushing yards on offense (1268 of 1760) and was the target of 15.7% of the total pass attempts (94/156). That was in only 12 games.

For context, in 16 games AB had 25.8% of the pass targets (154/596). If Bell had maintained his same rate and played a full slate then he would've had roughly 24 more pass targets. That would bring him up to around 20% of the total pass targets.

In contrast, DWill caught 13% less of his targets, for 1.5 yards/reception less, and was targeted noticeably less per game over his starts. He also rushed for 1.5 yards per carry less and less yards per game than Bell.

Like the man said, he is the #1 RB and the #2 WR. I have NO IDEA what that is actually worth in cap dollars and contractual guarantees, but how else can I view Bell other than pretty darn indispensable?

[steelreserve]

How do you know what the offer was? Has it been released? Most of us are guessing it came down to how much was guaranteed, not necessarily the total numbers. If Bell has a dominant season, he's more likely to get more in 'guaranteed money'. That is the gamble.

From what's been reported, the offer was essentially 3 years, $42 million with ~$10 million guaranteed, $30M in the first two years, and some team options for two more years.

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/platform/amp/nfl-pittsburgh-steelers-news/2017/7/19/15994860/steelers-rejected-5-year-offer-to-leveon-bell-released-to-the-public-franchise-tag

Realistically, the only way he's not getting at least $30M is if he gets suspended for drugs again this season or suffered a career-ending injury - think worse than an ACL, I still don't think they'd cut him if he simply tore an ACL, they'd see if he could come back or at the very least they'd have to pay him an injury buyout. You can basically call that $30M "guaranteed barring flat-out stupidity."

Not signing the deal is actually a pretty huge bet against himself - to be guaranteed of at least $30 million, which is more than the sweetest guarantee you'd ever see written into a contract, all you have to do is not fuck up with drugs for this season and the following offseason.

And the outcome is even dumber - instead he took $12 million ... but guess what, the other part is the same! If he fucks up with drugs, he doesn't get any more money. But guess what else? Now if he tears his ACL he's not under contract, and the team has nothing at stake and no decision to make. He's just a free agent earning nothing. If he just has a bad year, he's not under contract, and the team doesn't have to decide whether he's worth $18M or whatever the second year of his contract calls for. He's a free agent, so their offer just goes down. Literally every other scenario now works out worse for him by not signing the offer. Maybe if it was a lowball offer he'd have a point, but it wasn't.

So either he must have such a diva-like opinion of himself that it's almost beyond comprehension, or the real reason is he doesn't like Pittsburgh and wants to leave, either of which are pretty bad signs for keeping him long-term. Of course, the third option is that he just made a bonehead move, so keep your fingers crossed that it's that one.

[Mojouw]

From what's been reported, the offer was essentially 3 years, $42 million with ~$10 million guaranteed, $30M in the first two years, and some team options for two more years.

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/platform/amp/nfl-pittsburgh-steelers-news/2017/7/19/15994860/steelers-rejected-5-year-offer-to-leveon-bell-released-to-the-public-franchise-tag

Realistically, the only way he's not getting at least $30M is if he gets suspended for drugs again this season or suffered a career-ending injury - think worse than an ACL, I still don't think they'd cut him if he simply tore an ACL, they'd see if he could come back or at the very least they'd have to pay him an injury buyout. You can basically call that $30M "guaranteed barring flat-out stupidity."

Not signing the deal is actually a pretty huge bet against himself - to be guaranteed of at least $30 million, which is more than the sweetest guarantee you'd ever see written into a contract, all you have to do is not fuck up with drugs for this season and the following offseason.

And the outcome is even dumber - instead he took $12 million ... but guess what, the other part is the same! If he fucks up with drugs, he doesn't get any more money. But guess what else? Now if he tears his ACL he's not under contract, and the team has nothing at stake and no decision to make. He's just a free agent earning nothing. If he just has a bad year, he's not under contract, and the team doesn't have to decide whether he's worth $18M or whatever the second year of his contract calls for. He's a free agent, so their offer just goes down. Literally every other scenario now works out worse for him by not signing the offer. Maybe if it was a lowball offer he'd have a point, but it wasn't.

So either he must have such a diva-like opinion of himself that it's almost beyond comprehension, or the real reason is he doesn't like Pittsburgh and wants to leave, either of which are pretty bad signs for keeping him long-term. Of course, the third option is that he just made a bonehead move, so keep your fingers crossed that it's that one.

It all depends on the guaranteed cash. That has yet to be reported or speculated on. Other than guaranteed cash, NFL contracts are not worth the paper they are printed on.

AB's deal is basically $19 million in year 1 as a signing bonus. Then 17.6 million in year 2. Then 18.9 in year 3. Then he is 32 and totally cut-able due to the dead money now being on the team's side. So basically it is not a 78 million dollar deal or whatever, it is a 3 year 48 million dollar deal with some super high cost option years in AB's early thirties that he will never realize.

Like I said earlier, Bell was not getting the 26 million he makes on the tag guaranteed. I see what you are saying, but I am willing to bet that much of what was in the Steelers offer was "funny money". If we assume he gets $30 million in two years through the extension, the team basically they offered to pay him $4 million dollars to give up control over his contractual situation. That's not a good deal for Bell.

[steelreserve]

It all depends on the guaranteed cash. That has yet to be reported or speculated on. Other than guaranteed cash, NFL contracts are not worth the paper they are printed on.

AB's deal is basically $19 million in year 1 as a signing bonus. Then 17.6 million in year 2. Then 18.9 in year 3. Then he is 32 and totally cut-able due to the dead money now being on the team's side. So basically it is not a 78 million dollar deal or whatever, it is a 3 year 48 million dollar deal with some super high cost option years in AB's early thirties that he will never realize.

Like I said earlier, Bell was not getting the 26 million he makes on the tag guaranteed. I see what you are saying, but I am willing to bet that much of what was in the Steelers offer was "funny money". If we assume he gets $30 million in two years through the extension, the team basically they offered to pay him $4 million dollars to give up control over his contractual situation. That's not a good deal for Bell.

Yeah, that's how NFL contracts work. Basically he can count on getting the first three years, two if he really fucks up, and beyond that you're negotiating again for what you're worth now.

My point is, what he'd get in the first couple years is still more than any guaranteed money he'd likely get from any contract anywhere next year. Is someone going to guarantee him $40 million somewhere, even after another standout year? There's no way that happens. What we offered was a very frontloaded deal, which works in his favor, and beyond the first few years, any contract put in front of him is going to have the same issues. Three years from now, he'll be negotiating again no matter what.

I could be wrong of course, but I just don't see how either the money or the security works out in his favor by rejecting an offer like that. He's shooting for the moon, and that has a way of not turning out how you'd hoped.

[DesertSteel]

I am not certain how he can not be defined as such. Until another RB and another pass-catching option emerge and establish themselves on this offense, then Bell is the engine that drives the while thing. Of course it requires a QB to execute everything, but in the last 2 seasons, the offense has struggled severely when either Ben or Bell is not playing.

In 2016 Bell gained 72% of the total rushing yards on offense (1268 of 1760) and was the target of 15.7% of the total pass attempts (94/156). That was in only 12 games.

For context, in 16 games AB had 25.8% of the pass targets (154/596). If Bell had maintained his same rate and played a full slate then he would've had roughly 24 more pass targets. That would bring him up to around 20% of the total pass targets.

In contrast, DWill caught 13% less of his targets, for 1.5 yards/reception less, and was targeted noticeably less per game over his starts. He also rushed for 1.5 yards per carry less and less yards per game than Bell.

Like the man said, he is the #1 RB and the #2 WR. I have NO IDEA what that is actually worth in cap dollars and contractual guarantees, but how else can I view Bell other than pretty darn indispensable?
The last time I checked Ben has been to 3 Super Bowls and won 2 while Bell has been to zero. That's empirical evidence.

[st33lersguy]

Waste of money this guy would be. I would rather upgrade another area of the team than dump that much money into a position that is becoming irrelevant.

And yes, Bell is best back in the league.

When was the last time 'best back in league' led a team to the super bowl? When was the last time 'best back in the league' was even on the super bowl winning team?

It's been a long, long, long time.

Bell is worth it if you want to sell a bunch of jerseys.

Agree totally. The RB never has won the super bowl without significant help from the QB or defense. Barry Sanders, Eric Dickerson, LaDanian Tomlinson, Adrian Peterson, RB Murderer, Earl Campbell, none of them even made it to a Super Bowl. Walter Payton waited a full decade befoer making it to and winning a Super Bowl and even then that was only with one of the 3 greatest defensive seasons ever. Jim Brown didn't win an NFL championship until his 8th year. Franco and Bus won Super Bowls, but there was great talent everywhere on both of those teams. Bell is a special player, but if they blow all their money on him and don't have money to sign/keep other guys it will be hard to get to the Super Bowl.

[AtlantaDan]

The last time I checked Ben has been to 3 Super Bowls and won 2 while Bell has been to zero. That's empirical evidence.

But Bell unlike Ben has never had the extraordinary benefit of having Arians on the coaching staff:couch::sofunny:

Bottom line is if Bell wants a mega-payout through the benefit of contracts that are guaranteed for their entire term learn how to shoot a basketball or swing a baseball bat - not happening with a sham union like the NFLPA

[Mojouw]

Yeah, that's how NFL contracts work. Basically he can count on getting the first three years, two if he really fucks up, and beyond that you're negotiating again for what you're worth now.

My point is, what he'd get in the first couple years is still more than any guaranteed money he'd likely get from any contract anywhere next year. Is someone going to guarantee him $40 million somewhere, even after another standout year? There's no way that happens. What we offered was a very frontloaded deal, which works in his favor, and beyond the first few years, any contract put in front of him is going to have the same issues. Three years from now, he'll be negotiating again no matter what.

I could be wrong of course, but I just don't see how either the money or the security works out in his favor by rejecting an offer like that. He's shooting for the moon, and that has a way of not turning out how you'd hoped.

I actually agree. I think I can see what Bell, or at least his agent, is hoping for.

$15 million or more per year with 40-45% guaranteed. So that looks something like this:

$15 million per year x 5 years = 75 million total contract value. Then the team guarantees 45% or so of the deal. That is 33.75 million paid out for certain. And an outside shot at making 41 and change more. That contract structure would be WAY TOO player friendly for my tastes. BUT it does combine the high end of the % guaranteed of RBs with WR money.

I suspect that is what Bell and his agent are looking for. Less % guaranteed than a WR (typically they are 50-60+%) and just short of double the yearly salary of other RBs.

Honestly, if his health holds out and he continues to perform as he has in the past, he will get it from some desperate team in 2019.

[Born2Steel]

Agree totally. The RB never has won the super bowl without significant help from the QB or defense. Barry Sanders, Eric Dickerson, LaDanian Tomlinson, Adrian Peterson, RB Murderer, Earl Campbell, none of them even made it to a Super Bowl. Walter Payton waited a full decade befoer making it to and winning a Super Bowl and even then that was only with one of the 3 greatest defensive seasons ever. Jim Brown didn't win an NFL championship until his 8th year. Franco and Bus won Super Bowls, but there was great talent everywhere on both of those teams. Bell is a special player, but if they blow all their money on him and don't have money to sign/keep other guys it will be hard to get to the Super Bowl.

Not disagreeing with your overall view, BUT, Marino only made 1 SB for his career, Elway didn't win until he had TD. It is very much a team sport and ALL the pieces have value. A great QB doesn't win without weapons either. Point here is Bell is 'The Best RB in Football Today' and that makes him ELITE. The basic rules do not apply to elite players. This is what makes it so tough to build and keep a SB caliber team. You are absolutely spot on about not being able to sign other good players on the team being the downside. Have to decide which is more important, keeping the top weapon on this team, or a pretty good O or D lineman. Or what about that flashy ILB? I'm just glad I don't have to make those choices for a living. I'm thinking we will see similar threads on AV, Tuitt, and Shazier before long.

[pczach]

Bell was not kidding when he said in 2016 this was his contract demand

Bell released the single, titled "Focus," [last summer]. It references his three-game suspension for a marijuana arrest last year, his recovery from a torn MCL and the reason he plays football. He also addresses his upcoming free-agent status in 2017, for which he names a hefty price tag.

In the song, Bell drops the line, "I'm at the top and if not I'm the closest, Ima need 15 a year and they know this."

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/leveon-bell-rap-song-focus-lyrics-steelers/1sk3aiaqy5tam1nn71f48lvayo

Then there was this April Fools Day tweet that Bell later said was a "joke"

848177279666671619

Much of Bell's twitter feed is dedicated to his own wonderfulness - he definitely thinks he is getting screwed by getting paid $12 million this upcoming season


The amazing thing about this entire situation is listening to him say he's willing to sit out the entire season.

If he sits out the season, he will lose $12.12 million.

If he sits out the season and the team makes the playoffs. They will essentially be in the same position they have been in since he has been with the team.......he won't be available for the playoffs.

He's entitled to do whatever he wants, but he better understand that he is putting out a very bad picture of himself to every NFL team. He turned down a contract that was literally going to pay him nearly twice what the next highest RB in the NFL would make this year. He can try to spin it any way he likes, but the fact of the matter is that he now looks like a paycheck player. It's not like the team low balled him. They offered him a very lucrative deal.

I don't wish him any ill will at all, but this gamble could literally ruin him. Either by injury or his own idiocy and greed.

Also, for the record.......the idea that he is doing this for all the poor NFL running backs out there is laughable. Again, he's within his rights to do whatever he wants. He just needs to know that there will be repercussions that he simply doesn't see right now.

If he thinks fans can't see through his ridiculous bullshit in tweets, he's fooling himself. Sitting out when you are offered significantly more money than any other player at your position makes does not inspire people.

[DesertSteel]

At least the Steelers FO had the common sense to leak their offer instead of announcing it like the dysfunctional Redskins did with 'Kurt' Cousins.

[Born2Steel]

https://www.profootballrumors.com/2017/05/details-on-adrian-petersons-saints-contract

Close to the same as I have wished for Bell.

[Shoes]

The amazing thing about this entire situation is listening to him say he's willing to sit out the entire season.

If he sits out the season, he will lose $12.12 million.

If he sits out the season and the team makes the playoffs. They will essentially be in the same position they have been in since he has been with the team.......he won't be available for the playoffs.

He's entitled to do whatever he wants, but he better understand that he is putting out a very bad picture of himself to every NFL team. He turned down a contract that was literally going to pay him nearly twice what the next highest RB in the NFL would make this year. He can try to spin it any way he likes, but the fact of the matter is that he now looks like a paycheck player. It's not like the team low balled him. They offered him a very lucrative deal.

I don't wish him any ill will at all, but this gamble could literally ruin him. Either by injury or his own idiocy and greed.

Also, for the record.......the idea that he is doing this for all the poor NFL running backs out there is laughable. Again, he's within his rights to do whatever he wants. He just needs to know that there will be repercussions that he simply doesn't see right now.

If he thinks fans can't see through his ridiculous bullshit in tweets, he's fooling himself. Sitting out when you are offered significantly more money than any other player at your position makes does not inspire people.


:salute:

[steelreserve]

I actually agree. I think I can see what Bell, or at least his agent, is hoping for.

$15 million or more per year with 40-45% guaranteed. So that looks something like this:

$15 million per year x 5 years = 75 million total contract value. Then the team guarantees 45% or so of the deal. That is 33.75 million paid out for certain. And an outside shot at making 41 and change more. That contract structure would be WAY TOO player friendly for my tastes. BUT it does combine the high end of the % guaranteed of RBs with WR money.

I suspect that is what Bell and his agent are looking for. Less % guaranteed than a WR (typically they are 50-60+%) and just short of double the yearly salary of other RBs.

Honestly, if his health holds out and he continues to perform as he has in the past, he will get it from some desperate team in 2019.


I mean ... shit, though. If his health holds out and he continues to perform, then guaranteed money doesn't even matter because he continues to earn the full amount. So what we offered turns out to not be a hell of a lot different from what he wanted anyway. It's just a lot of running around for nothing.

I guess I see in theory what he could be aiming for, but to me it's far from a sure thing that he gets it. Oh well, yolo.

[ALLD]

If Bell holds out he will never recoup the money. Too bad he is a great player with a 10 cent brain.

[DesertSteel]

If Bell holds out he will never recoup the money. Too bad he is a great player with a 10 cent brain.
Yeah who said that weed doesn't have any negative effects?

[teegre]

If I have this straight...

Franchised in 2017 ($12 million)
Franchised in 2018 ($14 million)

That means Bell would have to be offered $16 million in 2019, to match the Steelers' offer (3 years/$42 mil).

Of course, if he stays healthy (et cetera), he could very well be offered $16 million in 2019. Or, he'll be going into his 7th season, and very well could get offered less.

[DesertSteel]

If I have this straight...

Franchised in 2017 ($12 million)
Franchised in 2018 ($14 million)

That means Bell would have to be offered $16 million in 2019, to match the Steelers' offer (3 years/$42 mil).

Of course, if he stays healthy (et cetera), he could very well be offered $16 million in 2019. Or, he'll be going into his 7th season, and very well could get offered less.
Makes you wonder if his agent took his shoes off to finish adding it all up before they turned it down...

[Craic]

If I have this straight...

Franchised in 2017 ($12 million)
Franchised in 2018 ($14 million)

That means Bell would have to be offered $16 million in 2019, to match the Steelers' offer (3 years/$42 mil).

Of course, if he stays healthy (et cetera), he could very well be offered $16 million in 2019. Or, he'll be going into his 7th season, and very well could get offered less.
Yes, but that's also if the issue is straight up figures. It sounds, however, like the issue was guaranteed money. Personally, I'd rather take a 3 mill a year cut from each of those figures but be guaranteed 40 or 50 percent of it.

[fansince'76]

whats left to negotiate though , we know what he wants and its so far out of the realm of possibility the only thing left to do is laugh at his joke of demands of self worth ....

the deadline was to get a long term deal done before the Tag officially kicks in ...

Ike suggests he MIGHT hold out and really make a statement ... since the tag is unsigned wondering if we can rescind it if it lingers into the season ??

I want this team focused on winning not on what Bell is doing ..last thing we need is a distraction

Bingo. Ben's window (and as a result, the team's window) is closing rapidly, and that's what really matters at this point.

[teegre]

Yes, but that's also if the issue is straight up figures. It sounds, however, like the issue was guaranteed money. Personally, I'd rather take a 3 mill a year cut from each of those figures but be guaranteed 40 or 50 percent of it.

That's the thing, let's assume he does indeed get injured/cut (even though I find it likely that he doesn't get at least two years of his contract)...

Year 1, Contract: $12 million
Year 1, No contract: $12 million

Year 2, Contract: 0
Year 2, No contract: 0

Not signing doesn't help him in the least (nor does it truly hurt him). That said, if he doesn't get injured, not signing could indeed end up hurting him...

Contract: 2 years/$30 million
No contract: 2 years/$26 million

SUMMATION:
As it is now, either way, he is not guaranteed anything beyond this season. Sure, the contract does not guarantee anything beyond that first year, but it does have a lofty salary of $18 million... which would be $4 million more than his current situation. Plus, more importantly, The Rooney are like The Lannisters: they always pay their debts. (As in: there is little chance that Bell doesn't see at least the first two years of his contract.)

[AtlantaDan]

SUMMATION:
As it is now, either way, he is not guaranteed anything beyond this season.

Which IMO is in the overall best interests of the Steelers

As was posted above, the nightmare scenario for the Steelers if Bell had signed a long time deal is a significant injury (not unlikely given Bell's history) or the Woodley scenario (get the big contract and then slack off - again not an unlikely possibility given two suspensions) that has the Steelers carrying a big signing bonus as dead money for a player that does not perform to the level of his contract

At this point Bell has to show up for the first regular season game since the Steelers could not renegotiate his 2017 contract even if they wanted to and now still needs to play for a payout in 2018 and beyond

And if the rumored offer by the Steelers is correct, the other players know the terms of their deals and presumably are not going to think the Steelers lowballed Bell because he could always be tagged for 2017

My guess is Bell is gone by 2019

[DesertSteel]

Which IMO is in the overall best interests of the Steelers

As was posted above, the nightmare scenario for the Steelers if Bell had signed a long time deal is a significant injury (not unlikely given Bell's history) or the Woodley scenario (get the big contract and then slack off - again not an unlikely possibility given two suspensions) that has the Steelers carrying a big signing bonus as dead money for a player that does not perform to the level of his contract

At this point Bell has to show up for the first regular season game since the Steelers could not renegotiate his 2017 contract even if they wanted to and now still needs to play for a payout in 2018 and beyond

And if the rumored offer by the Steelers is correct, the other players know the terms of their deals and presumably are not going to think the Steelers lowballed Bell because he could always be tagged for 2017

My guess is Bell is gone by 2019

After 2 more years of runnng his wheels off (which I hope they do), I'm not sure he'll have much value going into his 7th year in the league. Besides that, Ben is likely gone at that point. We don't need a $15M RB with a rebuild going at QB.

[ALLD]

If Bell was smart he would work for the extra $ with commercials and promos. My guess is he retires in 2 years and opens a weed shop in Denver to live out the rest of his days.

[Born2Steel]

After 2 more years of runnng his wheels off (which I hope they do), I'm not sure he'll have much value going into his 7th year in the league. Besides that, Ben is likely gone at that point. We don't need a $15M RB with a rebuild going at QB.

At that point, I love the "Hershel Walker trade" idea someone posted previously. If only....

[BlackAndGold]

Imo, Bell and the Steelers will agree on a deal after the season, or he'll get tagged, and a deal will be made then.

Bell could get 3 years of guaranteed money(counting this years tag) in both scenarios.

Also, the Mike Wallace comparisons are wrong. MW's on the field production(drops), or skill set(horrible route runner, just a go route option) was never worth the contract he received. Bell on the field is worth $15mil or maybe even more.

[Craic]

That's the thing, let's assume he does indeed get injured/cut (even though I find it likely that he doesn't get at least two years of his contract)...

Year 1, Contract: $12 million
Year 1, No contract: $12 million

Year 2, Contract: 0
Year 2, No contract: 0

Not signing doesn't help him in the least (nor does it truly hurt him). That said, if he doesn't get injured, not signing could indeed end up hurting him...

Contract: 2 years/$30 million
No contract: 2 years/$26 million

SUMMATION:
As it is now, either way, he is not guaranteed anything beyond this season. Sure, the contract does not guarantee anything beyond that first year, but it does have a lofty salary of $18 million... which would be $4 million more than his current situation. Plus, more importantly, The Rooney are like The Lannisters: they always pay their debts. (As in: there is little chance that Bell doesn't see at least the first two years of his contract.)

I probably should have been clearer. I was talking about which contract I would rather play under, not whether it benefits him to sign or not sign. On that note, I get him trying to force a guaranteed contract for even less money than he might make on the tag.

[AtlantaDan]

If Bell was smart he would work for the extra $ with commercials and promos. My guess is he retires in 2 years and opens a weed shop in Denver to live out the rest of his days.

That is a problem - corporate America not wild about handing out endorsement deals to athletes who repeatedly get suspended for marijuana usage

Companies prefer players free of off the field controversy like Peyton Manning - Ben never overcame the allegations against him as far as endorsement potential goes

[Born2Steel]

Just something to chew on about the $15M asking price by Bell(apparently). The tag gives him $12M, so essentially paying the 2nd best WR on the team $3M. Question; should dual threat players get paid for only one position? Bell lines up at both RB and slot WR positions. Our offense runs through Bell. Opposing defenses #1 priority is finding Bell when they line up. As tough as it is to build a dominant D in today's NFL, why not put money in elite offensive players? The RB position may not get as much value as it used to, however a player like Bell, who is not just a RB, is being under-valued. Plus without Bell, we have a RB stable of nearly zero NFL production. I understand nothing can happen as of right now. Next offseason Bell SHOULD get his $15M/year contract. With his tag already being over $14M, it would be crazy not to.

[ALLD]

It opens the door to paying players extra who also play on STs.

[BurghBoy412]

The organization really played this right in my eyes. Bell is the best back in the game but he's missed right around 30% of his possible starts. I've gotta think that is why the team wasn't willing to commit more money. Making this a "put up or shut up" year for Bell. If he can avoid suspension and injury whilst winning at least an AFC title. I believe that would give the organization the assurance that Bell is worthy of his asking price.

Bell is willing to bet on himself. If you ask me that is a very desirable trait to have in a player. It's all on his shoulders now. Bring home the goods and get PAID. Have a lack lustre year and get the tag again.

[Born2Steel]

It opens the door to paying players extra who also play on STs.

No it doesn't. That's just fishing for arguments.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/434ije/how_do_incentives_in_contracts_work_against_the/- - - Updated - - -


The organization really played this right in my eyes. Bell is the best back in the game but he's missed right around 30% of his possible starts. I've gotta think that is why the team wasn't willing to commit more money. Making this a "put up or shut up" year for Bell. If he can avoid suspension and injury whilst winning at least an AFC title. I believe that would give the organization the assurance that Bell is worthy of his asking price.

Bell is willing to bet on himself. If you ask me that is a very desirable trait to have in a player. It's all on his shoulders now. Bring home the goods and get PAID. Have a lack lustre year and get the tag again.

Yes, and I can't argue those points. It just happens to be my own opinion that Bell has already proven his worth to this team. With Bell, SB caliber team. Without Bell, probably won't win the division.

[Born2Steel]

whats left to negotiate though , we know what he wants and its so far out of the realm of possibility the only thing left to do is laugh at his joke of demands of self worth ....

the deadline was to get a long term deal done before the Tag officially kicks in ...

Ike suggests he MIGHT hold out and really make a statement ... since the tag is unsigned wondering if we can rescind it if it lingers into the season ??

I want this team focused on winning not on what Bell is doing ..last thing we need is a distraction

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/07/charlie-batch-expects-no-ill-will-toward-potential-steelers-no-shows/

[AtlantaDan]

Good summation in the SI MMQB column this morning of points made in this thread

Le'Veon Bell's quest to be paid like a No. 1 running back plus a No. 2 receiver is novel though ultimately flawed. Setting aside the fact that Bell has played just one full 16-game season in four in Pittsburgh, the durability question inherent to the position prevents any team, much less the uber-cap conscious Steelers from setting a new market for dual threat running backs. No. 2 receivers don't run between the tackles and get their legs caught under piles of bodies, which is why a solid No. 2 receiver is a better investment than your average No. 1 running back.

https://www.si.com/mmqb/2017/07/24/nfl-training-camps-cardinals-rams-chargers-robert-klemko-guest-mmqb

[steelreserve]

Question; should dual threat players get paid for only one position?

Yes. Unless he can line up at both RB and WR at once, he is still only one player out of 11 on the field, and as such should get paid as the highest-skilled ONE non-QB player on offense (actually a toss-up for that distinction along with Brown).

Linebackers defend against the run and also drop into coverage sometimes. Should they be paid as much as a defensive lineman plus a cornerback? Tight ends catch passes and also block. Should a good TE be paid the same as a good offensive tackle plus a good wide receiver? No, because that would be stupid.

Catching passes as a running back is just called doing your fucking job. Yes, he's better at catching passes than most other RBs. That just makes him a better running back, not two players.

His argument is like the ones that divorce attorneys use for stay-at-home housewives. "A cook could make $25,000 a year, and a janitor could make $25,000 a year, and a day care worker could make $25,000 a year, and a school tutor could make $25,000 a year, and a receptionist could make $25,000 a year, and a taxi driver could make $25,000 a year; therefore my client should be compensated for $150,000 a year worth of work." Well, no - those are a bunch of $8-an-hour jobs, and doing six separate $8-an-hour jobs part-time for a total of 40 hours a week will get you $8 an hour, not $150,000.

Same wrong line of thinking that Bell is using. He lines up at running back 75% of the time, that's 75% of the time he's NOT lining up as a receiver; why would we pay him as if it was 100%?

About the only exception to this would be a real two-way player who could play offense and defense, or kicker and punter or something like that, and ACTUALLY fill two different positions full-time.

[Born2Steel]

Yes. Unless he can line up at both RB and WR at once, he is still only one player out of 11 on the field, and as such should get paid as the highest-skilled ONE non-QB player on offense (actually a toss-up for that distinction along with Brown).

Linebackers defend against the run and also drop into coverage sometimes. Should they be paid as much as a defensive lineman plus a cornerback? Tight ends catch passes and also block. Should a good TE be paid the same as a good offensive tackle plus a good wide receiver? No, because that would be stupid.

Catching passes as a running back is just called doing your fucking job. Yes, he's better at catching passes than most other RBs. That just makes him a better running back, not two players.

His argument is like the ones that divorce attorneys use for stay-at-home housewives. "A cook could make $25,000 a year, and a janitor could make $25,000 a year, and a day care worker could make $25,000 a year, and a school tutor could make $25,000 a year, and a receptionist could make $25,000 a year, and a taxi driver could make $25,000 a year; therefore my client should be compensated for $150,000 a year worth of work." Well, no - those are a bunch of $8-an-hour jobs, and doing six separate $8-an-hour jobs part-time for a total of 40 hours a week will get you $8 an hour, not $150,000.

Same wrong line of thinking that Bell is using. He lines up at running back 75% of the time, that's 75% of the time he's NOT lining up as a receiver; why would we pay him as if it was 100%?

About the only exception to this would be a real two-way player who could play offense and defense, or kicker and punter or something like that, and ACTUALLY fill two different positions full-time.

No need to jump over the cliff. The context of that question has nothing to do with housewives or TEs. But since you bring up the TE, let's look back at Jimmy Graham going to appeals over should his tag be at TE or WR, because he lined up at both about evenly. His roster spot was TE so the appeal came back for TE. So, I already knew the answer. In the case of a player like Deion Sanders that played DB, WR, and returner, how do you answer that question? I already know the answer to that one too.
Bell isn't saying pay him like both positions are equal. His RB tag puts him at $12M. He is asking for another $3M as the #2 receiver/#1 offensive weapon on the team. Not another $12M. The whole resetting the value of a RB for the entire league is just him trying to justify and get support for his asking price. I couldn't care less about that part of it. What I do care about is that he, most likely, will not be on this team after this season. If the Steelers try to tag him again next season, I'm thinking he just holds out and waits for some team to give him what he wants in 2019. I don't want to see that happen over $3M.

[steelreserve]

No need to jump over the cliff. The context of that question has nothing to do with housewives or TEs. But since you bring up the TE, let's look back at Jimmy Graham going to appeals over should his tag be at TE or WR, because he lined up at both about evenly. His roster spot was TE so the appeal came back for TE. So, I already knew the answer. In the case of a player like Deion Sanders that played DB, WR, and returner, how do you answer that question? I already know the answer to that one too.
Bell isn't saying pay him like both positions are equal. His RB tag puts him at $12M. He is asking for another $3M as the #2 receiver/#1 offensive weapon on the team. Not another $12M. The whole resetting the value of a RB for the entire league is just him trying to justify and get support for his asking price. I couldn't care less about that part of it. What I do care about is that he, most likely, will not be on this team after this season. If the Steelers try to tag him again next season, I'm thinking he just holds out and waits for some team to give him what he wants in 2019. I don't want to see that happen over $3M.

No player has ever held out for an entire season over the franchise tag, the amount of money you sacrifice is so large that it is almost impossible to make up in future contracts no matter how large, so it always works in the player's favor financially to play it out even if they hate it. Not to mention sitting out would SEVERELY limit your future opportunities - you would automatically be labeling yourself a literally unprecedented me-first player - so you just may not get such a big contract after all, since you are now carrying the attitude-risk tag. I don't worry about our ability to keep him on a second tag if that's what we have to do.

The basis for his entire argument is stupid, though. Running backs catch passes. Catching as many passes as he does raises his value as a running back, that's it. And our offer to him, as well as the franchise tag value, both blow away the top salary for a running back, and are right up there with top players at other positions also. Pretty damn generous for a player that's missed almost a third of the games that have taken place during his career. Perhaps instead of "Why is the deck stacked against me?" a better question to be asking himself is "Imagine how much I could've gotten if I hadn't missed all those games?" The idea that he's somehow a victim is just a non-starter with me.

For what it's worth, Graham's argument was a different one: "I am a receiver, not a TE, and should be paid as a receiver," to which the answer was "lol, nice try ff, if you were a receiver no way you'd be top 5."

[Craic]

No player has ever held out for an entire season over the franchise tag . . .
On top of that, it still pushes everything out a year. Instead of getting bumped to the next level the following year, you still have to come in and play at the going tag rate for that year. In short, it's nothing more than a wasted year.

[DesertSteel]

Question; should dual threat players get paid for only one position?
Nobody needs to get paid for both. When I was in senior management for a credit card company that was in decline, people left and their responsibilities just fell over to me. I ended up being responsible for the duties of seven people who left the company. I never got an extra dime. Now I do something else. If Bell doesn't like it, he can do something else in the real world.

[Born2Steel]

On top of that, it still pushes everything out a year. Instead of getting bumped to the next level the following year, you still have to come in and play at the going tag rate for that year. In short, it's nothing more than a wasted year.

I understand. Bell has said he won't play though.

- - - Updated - - -

Since it seems you guys are focusing on a question out of context, let me ask a new question.

Are the Steelers better with, or without LeVeon Bell? If you are already paying $12M, is he worthy of another $3M to keep?

[86WARD]

Okay...so give Bell $12M and then give him $3M in receiving incentives. If he doesn't like it then he can walk. You'd be giving him what he wants if he truly thinks he's a #2 WR...if e believes in himself, he should take it.

On the other hand, what if Bryant comes in and produces like a #2 WR. Is Bell going to accept being the 3 receiver and getting WR3 money? So $12M plus another $1M for WR3 money?

[steelreserve]

I understand. Bell has said he won't play though.

- - - Updated - - -

Since it seems you guys are focusing on a question out of context, let me ask a new question.

Are the Steelers better with, or without LeVeon Bell? If you are already paying $12M, is he worthy of another $3M to keep?


That's exactly what we'd be doing with a second franchise tag, so yea, for one year it would be worth it.

He's said he won't play, but guess what? He'd actually play.

[Mojouw]

Ummm. So, the real world private sector and sports have basically zero comparability.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Born2Steel]

Okay...so give Bell $12M and then give him $3M in receiving incentives. If he doesn't like it then he can walk. You'd be giving him what he wants if he truly thinks he's a #2 WR...if e believes in himself, he should take it.

On the other hand, what if Bryant comes in and produces like a #2 WR. Is Bell going to accept being the 3 receiver and getting WR3 money? So $12M plus another $1M for WR3 money?

That is the same drum I've been banging on also.(Except the 'let him walk' part) It seems to come down to the guaranteed money for Bell though. I, personally, think he is worth more than most of the rest of you do. I would offer him #1 weapon guarantee. Plus incentives laden long term contract. Look at the AP deal. Around $18M, with a large signing bonus, and incentives out the ass. I think this is the way to do Bell's contract as well.

[Mojouw]

If we want to make this kinda like the real world - it might be something like this:

We will pay you a hiring bonus of $25 K.
Then we will pay you a year one salary of $10 K.
In years 2-4 we will pay you a salary of $30 K.
At the end of your contract we will pay you a completion bonus of $75 K. That is if you fulfill the entire contract. Even 2 days short means no bonus. In two decades of contracts at our company, 3 people have received their completion bonuses. Who knows, you could be #4!

You can never renegotiate in that 4 year period. No matter what. If you want to get paid, you have to work on those terms. Also, we can fire you at any time and the only money we owe you is your hiring bonus. Additionally, we will actively be looking for someone younger and better that will do your job for $15 K.

C'mon! Who's takin' that deal?

I mean I am. I've made the unfortunate decision to be an at-will college teacher. So I basically have that deal, minus the hiring bonus, minus the multi-year contract, and minus many tens of thousands. But still, who else is going to run out and sign up. It's a great deal!

[Mojouw]

That's the thing, let's assume he does indeed get injured/cut (even though I find it likely that he doesn't get at least two years of his contract)...

Year 1, Contract: $12 million
Year 1, No contract: $12 million

Year 2, Contract: 0
Year 2, No contract: 0

Not signing doesn't help him in the least (nor does it truly hurt him). That said, if he doesn't get injured, not signing could indeed end up hurting him...

Contract: 2 years/$30 million
No contract: 2 years/$26 million

SUMMATION:
As it is now, either way, he is not guaranteed anything beyond this season. Sure, the contract does not guarantee anything beyond that first year, but it does have a lofty salary of $18 million... which would be $4 million more than his current situation. Plus, more importantly, The Rooney are like The Lannisters: they always pay their debts. (As in: there is little chance that Bell doesn't see at least the first two years of his contract.)

That was my point earlier, sort of. The Steelers are paying Bell the franchise tags + $4 million to relinquish his control over his income for years 3-x (can't remember how many years the deal was for) of the contract. If that contract, much like AB's, was front loaded as hell; then Bell could be cut after year 3. He plays the two tag years and then hits the open market, want to bet me that he makes the $4 million + year 3 of the Steelers deal + a massive front-loaded bonus in the first year of his post-tag contract from say...the 49'ers?

Sure it is massive gamble by Bell and his agent. But 4 million is simply not enough to buy out the prime FA years of the best overall RB in the league. I really wish it was, but it didn't work out.

[steelreserve]

If we want to make this kinda like the real world - it might be something like this:

We will pay you a hiring bonus of $25 K.
Then we will pay you a year one salary of $10 K.
In years 2-4 we will pay you a salary of $30 K.
At the end of your contract we will pay you a completion bonus of $75 K. That is if you fulfill the entire contract. Even 2 days short means no bonus. In two decades of contracts at our company, 3 people have received their completion bonuses. Who knows, you could be #4!

That doesn't sound like the way the Bell contract was structured, though. It looked more like "we'll pay you a hiring bonus of $30K, and then it's just a regular year-to-year job like anything else."

"Oh, and by the way, you're making twice as much as anyone else who does this job, and more than anyone has ever made doing this job in the history of the world. We just don't want to guarantee the whole five years up front because you've either called in sick or been stoned an average of two days every week; you understand, right?"

Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me all things considered.

[Mojouw]

That doesn't sound like the way the Bell contract was structured, though. It looked more like "we'll pay you a hiring bonus of $30K, and then it's just a regular year-to-year job like anything else."

"Oh, and by the way, you're making twice as much as anyone else who does this job, and more than anyone has ever made doing this job in the history of the world. We just don't want to guarantee the whole five years up front because you've either called in sick or been stoned an average of two days every week; you understand, right?"

Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me all things considered.

That is potentially what it was. We just don't know what the guarantees were. Without that piece of information, it is really impossible to tell.

AB's deal is essentially a 3 year $49 million deal. Not the 5 year $73 million it got reported as.
Heyward's deal works out to a 3 year $32 million deal. Not the 6 years for $59 million it looks like it is.

Now for both, NONE of that after a signing bonus is guaranteed. The post year 3 window is just when the dead money inverts to the Steelers benefit. In other words after year 3 it is cheaper to cut the player then to pay them in terms of the salary cap ramifications.

This is likely LESS of a big deal for AB and Heyward as WR's and DE's tend to have longer than 3 year careers. This is Bell's last contract negotiation. It all comes down to how much of that 30-42 million in the first 3 years of the deal was guaranteed. Now, no way that 100% was ever possible, but I'm guessing Bell wants 50-60% and the Steelers want 30-40%.

Deal likely gets done this off-season all quiet like.

[steelreserve]

That is potentially what it was. We just don't know what the guarantees were. Without that piece of information, it is really impossible to tell.

AB's deal is essentially a 3 year $49 million deal. Not the 5 year $73 million it got reported as.
Heyward's deal works out to a 3 year $32 million deal. Not the 6 years for $59 million it looks like it is.

Now for both, NONE of that after a signing bonus is guaranteed. The post year 3 window is just when the dead money inverts to the Steelers benefit. In other words after year 3 it is cheaper to cut the player then to pay them in terms of the salary cap ramifications.

This is likely LESS of a big deal for AB and Heyward as WR's and DE's tend to have longer than 3 year careers. This is Bell's last contract negotiation. It all comes down to how much of that 30-42 million in the first 3 years of the deal was guaranteed. Now, no way that 100% was ever possible, but I'm guessing Bell wants 50-60% and the Steelers want 30-40%.

Deal likely gets done this off-season all quiet like.

One would think it does.

I don't think there's a lot standing in the way of it; a lot of my skepticism is that I'm just confused because what he is looking for and what was offered are not a hell of a lot different, and they become practically identical after he completes a year or two in either case and practically worthless if he does not. One would think any halfway competent agent could do the math and see that. Anyway, I expect you're right.

[Mojouw]

One would think it does.

I don't think there's a lot standing in the way of it; a lot of my skepticism is that I'm just confused because what he is looking for and what was offered are not a hell of a lot different, and they become practically identical after he completes a year or two in either case and practically worthless if he does not. One would think any halfway competent agent could do the math and see that. Anyway, I expect you're right.

That is always the crux of it isn't it?

All I could find is that Bell is repped by the same folks that do Tyrod Taylor and Matt Forte. I think both made sure that there was a high % of guaranteed dough in their last deals. Plus from what I can tell, Bell's agent has only Bell as a super high profile "star" client. He is going to try to cash in on this contract for both the payday and to drive other NFL players his way.

Agents are terrible people.

[pczach]

That is always the crux of it isn't it?

All I could find is that Bell is repped by the same folks that do Tyrod Taylor and Matt Forte. I think both made sure that there was a high % of guaranteed dough in their last deals. Plus from what I can tell, Bell's agent has only Bell as a super high profile "star" client. He is going to try to cash in on this contract for both the payday and to drive other NFL players his way.

Agents are terrible people.


Ultimately, the agent's responsibility is to get his or her client the best deal they can that also fills as many of the players needs and wants as possible.

If Bell is the driving force behind the demands of #1 RB + #2 WR money, he is completely out of control.....but at least he is completely in control of his fate and the consequences of his decisions.

If his agent is pushing him to hold out or to demand unrealistic money in the hopes that the agent, not Bell, makes a killing....he is doing his client a huge injustice. The agent loses nothing if Bell sits out other than his cut of the contract that he negotiates that is unrealized. He will get his money eventually when Bell does sign a contract with somebody, whether that's the Steelers or any other team.

The point is that Bell assumes all the risk and all the loss of money. I hope his agent is explaining the numbers game with him, and making sure he fully understands the ramifications of any decision and the dollars gained or lost going forward with all variables regarding injury, performance, suspensions, etc... completely explained and understood.

I want one of my favorite players and a great player on my team, but I also don't want to see him get financially crushed because of a personal decision. They are not just players.....they are people with families and a lifetime of work already put in to realize their dreams with a small window to make their money. Somewhere in there, there has to be a happy medium.

I think the Steelers made a good faith offer, and they are not an organization that screws their best players over if they perform and hold up their end of the bargain from a personal and team standpoint. I guess that's why this whole thing is so hard to understand from Bell's point of view.

[Mojouw]

Ultimately, the agent's responsibility is to get his or her client the best deal they can that also fills as many of the players needs and wants as possible.

If Bell is the driving force behind the demands of #1 RB + #2 WR money, he is completely out of control.....but at least he is completely in control of his fate and the consequences of his decisions.

If his agent is pushing him to hold out or to demand unrealistic money in the hopes that the agent, not Bell, makes a killing....he is doing his client a huge injustice. The agent loses nothing if Bell sits out other than his cut of the contract that he negotiates that is unrealized. He will get his money eventually when Bell does sign a contract with somebody, whether that's the Steelers or any other team.

The point is that Bell assumes all the risk and all the loss of money. I hope his agent is explaining the numbers game with him, and making sure he fully understands the ramifications of any decision and the dollars gained or lost going forward with all variables regarding injury, performance, suspensions, etc... completely explained and understood.

I want one of my favorite players and a great player on my team, but I also don't want to see him get financially crushed because of a personal decision. They are not just players.....they are people with families and a lifetime of work already put in to realize their dreams with a small window to make their money. Somewhere in there, there has to be a happy medium.

I think the Steelers made a good faith offer, and they are not an organization that screws their best players over if they perform and hold up their end of the bargain from a personal and team standpoint. I guess that's why this whole thing is so hard to understand from Bell's point of view.

I think the Steelers offer is more than reasonable and have not really meant to indicate otherwise. I do feel that Bell and/or his agent see this as once in a decade chance to "recalibrate" the market and for reasons of ego, greed, and actual NFL statistics feel that this is the hill they are going to die on.

While I would like Bell to retire a Steeler, not sure if I am willing to have the franchise wreck the balance sheet to make that happen. If Bell and/or his agent absolutely must just do some other-worldly mega deal - well that is what crappy franchises are for. Have fun in Jacksonville, Buffalo, Detroit, or some other 7 win team.

I do think that if the Steelers were only going say 30% or less on the guarantee and Bell is stuck on a higher # - then maybe go to 40 or 45% and see what he says? That is working from my assumption that the % guaranteed is the sticking point. If it is raw $$ per year, than Bell is loco to think that the Steelers will go 15+ on a RB. Someone undoubtedly will, but not the Steelers.

[pczach]

I think the Steelers offer is more than reasonable and have not really meant to indicate otherwise. I do feel that Bell and/or his agent see this as once in a decade chance to "recalibrate" the market and for reasons of ego, greed, and actual NFL statistics feel that this is the hill they are going to die on.

While I would like Bell to retire a Steeler, not sure if I am willing to have the franchise wreck the balance sheet to make that happen. If Bell and/or his agent absolutely must just do some other-worldly mega deal - well that is what crappy franchises are for. Have fun in Jacksonville, Buffalo, Detroit, or some other 7 win team.

I do think that if the Steelers were only going say 30% or less on the guarantee and Bell is stuck on a higher # - then maybe go to 40 or 45% and see what he says? That is working from my assumption that the % guaranteed is the sticking point. If it is raw $$ per year, than Bell is loco to think that the Steelers will go 15+ on a RB. Someone undoubtedly will, but not the Steelers.


I think we agree on a lot of this. :drink:

I agree that the team can't mortgage their entire future to accommodate their RB with a stratospheric contract. I love him as a player, but if you can add 3-4 quality players to your roster for the price of one RB....there's not much of a choice.

[BurghBoy412]

What do you think will happen if Bell goes down before week 8? What will happen come time to negotiate again?

[st33lersguy]

What do you think will happen if Bell goes down before week 8? What will happen come time to negotiate again?

Something like this

Steelers FO: So you still want to be paid like a no.1 RB and a no. 2 WR and get a bunch of money guaranteed?

Bell: Uhhhh, yeah!

Steelers FO: But we're concerned about your health

Bell: F&&& that s&&&, I'm a no. 1 RB and a no. 2 WR

Steelers FO: This is a problem. I don't think we can give you an offer you will like

[Mojouw]

What do you think will happen if Bell goes down before week 8? What will happen come time to negotiate again?

That's the role of the dice on Bell's part.

I'm not surprised that an elite athlete in the prime of his career decides to let it ride on his sobriety and health.

If his knee explodes during the season, well than that bet bites him square in the ass!

[AtlantaDan]

This may not go well:rolleyes:

Antonio Brown is putting the pressure on Le'Veon Bell to sign his contract

Antonio Brown is known for using social media to make waves, and he did so again Monday, posting a tweet urging teammate Le’Veon Bell to sign his contract.

889537627359256576

He also chimed in from his youth football camp Sunday

“I was talking to him last night for about two hours. And, you know, we need him. I need him … We need every guy a part of the organization, in the helmet, to be there committed to the cause. He’s a special piece. Obviously we know what he brings to the team, his dimension, playing football. But he’s a special individual, and I pray that we have him there.”

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2017/07/24/le-veon-bell-contract-negotiations-antonio-brown-steelers-training-camp-saint-vincent/stories/201707240136

In other words, says the man who is so committed to the cause he preens on Facebook while his coach is addressing the team, I got my long term contract, you didn't. Get over it.

Maybe Ben can pour some more gas on these flames when he gets to Latrobe later this week

[DesertSteel]

In other words, says the man who is so committed to the cause he preens on Facebook while his coach is addressing the team, I got my long term contract, you didn't. Get over it.

He didn't get it the first time around, so I think that's the position that gives AB some cred on this topic. Plus he's talking to him, not just about him.

[AtlantaDan]

He didn't get it the first time around, so I think that's the position that gives AB some cred on this topic. Plus he's talking to him, not just about him.

He got a $42.5 million contract in 2012 before starting his third year in the league - no question that deal getting done at that time was because Wallace was holding out, but nobody put a gun to the heads of Drew Rosenhaus and AB to sign what was a very good deal at that time

229074127888187392

Steelers also agreed to front load money remaining on that contract when AB outperformed it

If AB wants to talk to Bell do it privately rather than give interviews and send out tweets - if it is me I respond do not go public to tell me what to do when it involves how I plan to handle my situation

[steelreserve]

Here's the funny thing about #1 RB + #2 WR money.

What does the highest-paid RB in the league make? $8 million. (after #1 it drops off quickly to about $6 million for most of the top RBs.)

What does a #2 receiver make? $5 million is about the max that most teams can afford for the position - a lot of them can't even spend that much. Maybe you'll get some spending a little more or less, but as less of a "core" position, its budget is almost completely at the mercy of the salary cap and what other players on the team ahead of it are making. So $5M is pretty decent for that.

The original deal we offered him already was for #1 RB + #2 WR money. What he wants is apparently to blow the top off of RB money by almost double, then get paid more on top of that for a position he doesn't play unless he's not playing RB. Forget weed - he and his agent need to put down the crack pipe.

[Count Steeler]

Maybe Ben can pour some more gas on these flames when he gets to Latrobe later this week

You mean after he has a "man to man" with Bryant?

It is going to take a special coaching job by Tomlin and a special leadership role from Ben to get this team on the same page and pointing in the same direction. Someone needs to get an arrow Mohawk ala Ernie Holmes from the 70s.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HTeVahD3BoM/VKG2jEsuKxI/AAAAAAAAARY/G-CRCN6EHKE/s1600/Ernie%2BHolmes.jpg

[teegre]

That was my point earlier, sort of. The Steelers are paying Bell the franchise tags + $4 million to relinquish his control over his income for years 3-x (can't remember how many years the deal was for) of the contract. If that contract, much like AB's, was front loaded as hell; then Bell could be cut after year 3. He plays the two tag years and then hits the open market, want to bet me that he makes the $4 million + year 3 of the Steelers deal + a massive front-loaded bonus in the first year of his post-tag contract from say...the 49'ers?

Sure it is massive gamble by Bell and his agent. But 4 million is simply not enough to buy out the prime FA years of the best overall RB in the league. I really wish it was, but it didn't work out.

Let's say that Bell is transition tagged after the 2018 season (and gets that massive deal from the Niners). The Steelers couldn't afford to match it, but they'd get a top ten pick in the 2019 draft as compensation.

Its a win-win-win.

[teegre]

Are the Steelers better with, or without LeVeon Bell? If you are already paying $12M, is he worthy of another $3M to keep?

I get what you're trying to say, but the last time that the Steelers tried to go "all in" to win now (mortgage the future) it resulted in 2012 & 2013. It almost worked: they were one drive away from winning it all in 2010, and, Ben's ankle injury basically killed 2011. So, I get it, and I'm not necessarily against it... but, I don't think the Steelers will do that again.

Let's think about it this way...

An extra $3 million for Bell... which leads to an extra $3 million for Shazier, an extra $3 million for Tuitt, and an extra $3 million for AV. That's $12 million that could be used for a fifth player (e.g. Bryant).

[steelreserve]

Let's say that Bell is transition tagged after the 2018 season (and gets that massive deal from the Niners). The Steelers couldn't afford to match it, but they'd get a top ten pick in the 2019 draft as compensation.

Its a win-win-win.

I thought the tranny tag got you nothing if the player leaves, just gives you the right to match the offer.

So basically legalized tampering where you have to put out a cap-unfriendly 1-year contract to begin the process. It's not a very attractive process, which is why teams don't use it very much.

[Born2Steel]

I get what you're trying to say, but the last time that the Steelers tried to go "all in" to win now (mortgage the future) it resulted in 2012 & 2013. It almost worked: they were one drive away from winning it all in 2010, and, Ben's ankle injury basically killed 2011. So, I get it, and I'm not necessarily against it... but, I don't think the Steelers will do that again.

Let's think about it this way...

An extra $3 million for Bell... which leads to an extra $3 million for Shazier, an extra $3 million for Tuitt, and an extra $3 million for AV. That's $12 million that could be used for a fifth player (e.g. Bryant).

I'm usually a 'long term' strategist. But when I look forward at this upcoming season, I see us giving up points. 30+ in some cases. If we keep AB, Bell, and Bryant productive, we should easily put up 30+ per game ourselves. My entire thought on Bell is give him enough signing bonus, and a money guarantee worthy of the #1 weapon on this team, to keep him focused on football. (Yes I know he SHOULD ALWAYS be focused)& I do understand what he was offered. Signing bonus, guaranteed money for this year and next, incentive laden beyond that. The hang up seems to be what he's being guaranteed.

[st33lersguy]

An extra $3 million for Bell... which leads to an extra $3 million for Shazier, an extra $3 million for Tuitt, and an extra $3 million for AV. That's $12 million that could be used for a fifth player (e.g. Bryant).

Yeah but will those three get $3 million more than the Steelers want to give them because they want to get paid for a position they don't play?

- - - Updated - - -

Any word on any contract talks between Tuitt and the Steelers? I haven't heard anything, I wonder if others have. Honestly, extending Tuitt should be their new top priority after the deadline. Making sure their D-line is intact should be a very high priority for them

[AtlantaDan]

Good analysis by Bill Barnwell at ESPN regarding Bell's contract expectations and the Steelers offer - excerpts and link to article below

Le'Veon Bell wants to be paid like a No. 1 RB and No. 2 WR. Is he worth it?

We don't know the specifics of the offer, but given what we know about how the Steelers structure deals and the current running back market, it looks to be very generous. Reports suggest (https://twitter.com/TomPelissero/status/887335623320797185) the Steelers offered Bell a deal averaging more than $12 million per season, with $30 million due over the first two years and $42 million through three seasons....

The $42 million figure is remarkable given the current state of running back contracts....

Bell averaged only 8.2 yards per reception and is averaging 8.8 yards per catch over the course of his career, which isn't really No. 2 wideout stuff. It's closer to what we might see from a slot receiver ... Those guys aren't making a ton of money on the free market. Bell's point also ignores the fact that the vast majority of starting running backs do contribute something as a receiver....

[L]et's say Bell's starting point as a running back is $35 million over the first three years of a new deal. We can't use that number, though, because the running back figures include some level of receiving ability, and we're going to calculate Bell's receiving value separately. Going through the top 20 rushers from 2016 again, you'll find that 77 percent of their yards from scrimmage come on the ground. Let's use that figure and round up to suggest that Bell is worth $27 million as a runner and blocker without including any money for receiving ability. ...

Slot receivers don't make a ton of money on the free market. .. Taking an average of the three-year values of [the top five slot receiver contracts] gets us to $14.6 million. Combine those two figures and you get to $41.6 million over three years, which is right in line with what the Steelers offered Bell, $42 million.
Is Bell worth that much?

I'd be skeptical, mostly because of the availability concerns. Bell has struggled with injuries throughout his professional career. He has been suspended twice, most recently for missing multiple drug tests. I think he's the most talented running back in football when healthy, but it's hard to say he's the best pure runner in the game when he hasn't even come within 350 yards of winning a rushing title during his first four years in the league.

The league probably won't value Bell at $15 million per year, but it takes only one dissenting team to prove Bell right. It's plausible -- if not probable -- somebody will pay Bell the record deal he wants.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20138541/leveon-bell-wants-paid-no-1-rb-no-2-wr-worth-2017-pittsburgh-steelers

So the Steelers and Bell both may be right. Steelers made a very generous offer but are not going to be stupid and grossly overpay. Bell and his agent probably also are correct that there usually is at least one poorly managed franchise that will overpay.

Run the wheels off him for 2 years and see who will pay up after that

[DesertSteel]

I get what you're trying to say, but the last time that the Steelers tried to go "all in" to win now (mortgage the future) it resulted in 2012 & 2013. It almost worked: they were one drive away from winning it all in 2010, and, Ben's ankle injury basically killed 2011. So, I get it, and I'm not necessarily against it... but, I don't think the Steelers will do that again.

Let's think about it this way...

An extra $3 million for Bell... which leads to an extra $3 million for Shazier, an extra $3 million for Tuitt, and an extra $3 million for AV. That's $12 million that could be used for a fifth player (e.g. Bryant).
Yeah but when do I get my $3 million?

[Born2Steel]

Anybody else get the sense that after the 2018 season we may be minus Ben, Bryant, and Bell?

[DesertSteel]

Anybody else get the sense that after the 2018 season we may be minus Ben, Bryant, and Bell?
Dobbs, JuJu and Conner.

- - - Updated - - -

Let's get #7 first though!

[AtlantaDan]

Anybody else get the sense that after the 2018 season we may be minus Ben, Bryant, and Bell?

Dobbs, JuJu and Conner.

Which will probably work out about as well as Mark Malone, Louis Lipps, and Frank Pollard stepping in for Bradshaw, Swann and Franco did:chuckle:

[DesertSteel]

Which will probably work out about as well as Mark Malone, Louis Lipps, and Frank Pollard stepping in for Bradshaw, Swann and Franco did:chuckle:
All good things come to an end :)

[Born2Steel]

Dobbs, JuJu and Conner.

- - - Updated - - -

Let's get #7 first though!

I can get on board with JuJu. I'm thinking he slipped past all of us but could wind up being a very good Steeler. Conner, I would love to see succeed. Time will tell. He's no Bell though. Dobbs? Same math, he's no BB. Can he be worthy of his pick though is my hope.

[BlackAndGold]

Anybody else get the sense that after the 2018 season we may be minus Ben, Bryant, and Bell?

Bryant will be back since he isn't a FA, and I'll be shocked if they let Bell just walk.

[86WARD]

Which will probably work out about as well as Mark Malone, Louis Lipps, and Frank Pollard stepping in for Bradshaw, Swann and Franco did:chuckle:

That's the reality...

[Dwinsgames]

I thought the tranny tag got you nothing if the player leaves, just gives you the right to match the offer.

So basically legalized tampering where you have to put out a cap-unfriendly 1-year contract to begin the process. It's not a very attractive process, which is why teams don't use it very much.

exactly ....

Transition TagsA transition player designation gives the free agent's team the right of first refusal. If the player receives an offer from another club, his initial team has seven days after his contract expires to match it and the player stays.
If the team doesn't match the offer, the player moves on and the team receives no compensation at all.
It costs less to retain a transition player. The one-year contract is based on the average of the top 10 salaries for the position he plays instead of five, or 120 percent of the player's previous year's salary, whichever is greater.

[teegre]

Anybody else get the sense that after the 2018 season we may be minus Ben, Bryant, and Bell?

Yes

After back-to-back SuperBowl victories, BB retires.

After back-to-back league MVP seasons, Bell gets $20 million/season from Washington.

After a record-setting 37 total receiving TDs in back-to-back seasons, Dallas makes Bryant the highest paid receiver in history.

[steelreserve]

It costs less to retain a transition player. The one-year contract is based on the average of the top 10 salaries for the position he plays instead of five, or 120 percent of the player's previous year's salary, whichever is greater.

Although as we've seen with Bell, the actual cost of the franchise tag is no longer done that way, but with some weird percentage-of-the-salary-cap formula that means he doesn't get paid the average of the top five salaries, he gets 50% more than the #1 salary. But yeah, with the tranny tag the cost is far less - the downside being that there is literally nothing stopping anyone from making an offer if the player is any good.

[Dwinsgames]

Although as we've seen with Bell, the actual cost of the franchise tag is no longer done that way, but with some weird percentage-of-the-salary-cap formula that means he doesn't get paid the average of the top five salaries, he gets 50% more than the #1 salary. But yeah, with the tranny tag the cost is far less - the downside being that there is literally nothing stopping anyone from making an offer if the player is any good.


bingo compensation went out the window for transition tag in the last collective bargaining agreement

[hawaiiansteeler]

Le’Veon Bell doesn’t report to Steelers camp

Posted by Josh Alper on July 27, 2017

https://nbcprofootballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/631783074-e1501189134190.jpg?w=242

Steelers players reported to training camp on Thursday, but running back Le’Veon Bell wasn’t among them.

That comes as no surprise as Bell has not signed his $12.1 million franchise tender and players in that position tend to stay away from the early part of camp at the very least. The deadline to sign a longer deal passed on July 17, leaving that deal on the table through the start of the season unless the Steelers offer him more money or a promise not to use the franchise tag to make reporting more worth Bell’s while.

Wide receiver Antonio Brown has been lobbying Bell to report to work recently and continued that effort on Thursday.

“When trying to do something special, we would like all our guys here,” Brown said, via ESPN.com.

to read rest of article:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/07/27/leveon-bell-doesnt-report-to-steelers-camp/

[Mojouw]

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/pittsburgh-steelers-opinions-reactions-news-updates/2017/7/31/16020592/proving-how-the-tom-pelissero-tweet-about-the-leaked-leveon-bell-contract-could-be-false-steelers

Interesting take on the Bell contract #'s. I would argue that this guy has a point. A front-loaded deal is kinda weird...

[Hawkman]

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/pittsburgh-steelers-opinions-reactions-news-updates/2017/7/31/16020592/proving-how-the-tom-pelissero-tweet-about-the-leaked-leveon-bell-contract-could-be-false-steelers

Interesting take on the Bell contract #'s. I would argue that this guy has a point. A front-loaded deal is kinda weird...

While he is "tongue in cheek " quite a bit, he makes a number of good points, especially the part about......"who the hell is this guy, and how is he getting the non-verifiable scoop"?

[steelreserve]

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/pittsburgh-steelers-opinions-reactions-news-updates/2017/7/31/16020592/proving-how-the-tom-pelissero-tweet-about-the-leaked-leveon-bell-contract-could-be-false-steelers

Interesting take on the Bell contract #'s. I would argue that this guy has a point. A front-loaded deal is kinda weird...


It is kind of weird that this was "leaked" and we never got any confirmation from anyone (but if the numbers were BS, wouldn't you have expected Bell's camp to point that out as well? I mean, they'd gain leverage from that, or dissipate the team's perceived leverage.)

On the other hand, why does this guy assume we'd structure it like the worst possible idiots? Not just a frontloaded deal, but a half-assed frontloaded deal where we cut cap space in year one just ... because? ... and then have it balloon out of control when we need the cap space more, then go back down when we don't?

Actually, we had what, $15 million in cap space after signing our draft picks and that includes Bell's franchise tender - so we would probably frontload it in the first year because that's when we had the money available. I know it's automatic to assume that we'll always structure contracts to be comically low in the first year and then become a crippling problem in later years because, hey, that's how it was always done (leading to the salary cap shitfuck a few years back), but there's a legitimate reason to do it the other way around for this one, unless we had our hearts set on carrying around $20 million in extra cap space for the hell of it.

The fact that Villanueva's deal was signed so quickly after the Bell situation played out - but not before then - tells me that Bell was the #1 priority and they were not going to do anything else that might limit their options until that was resolved. They were likely prepared to use nearly ALL of that cap space for Bell, which means they'd have to either be creative with a new (backloaded) contract for Villanueva or tell him to go pound salt until next year. Maybe this means we do get Tuitt's deal done this offseason after all; we only used up like a third of that cap space for the AV contract.

I'd like to also point out the almost eerie similarity between this and the Wallace/Brown situation. Obviously talented but very cash-vocal guy is in negotiations down to the wire, rejects a big offer ... hard-working and deserving guy with a less-urgent contract situation immediately gets his payday. What happened next, we all know.

I'm not saying Bell is going to go somewhere else and flame out, but the similarities about placing so much importance on getting ♫♫ PAAAAIIIIIIYED ♫♫ that you wear it on your sleeve as a badge of honor and a matter of principle are unmistakable, and really do not paint a picture in which I can imagine him here past next season.

[Mojouw]

I always thought the math on the leaked info was goofy/incomplete.

Year 1 being anything other than the entire signing bonus + a real low salary (exactly what they did with AB) never made sense to me.

The Steelers have learned their lesson(s) from having to restructure salaries because of prorated bonuses out over time. More and More you see them paying out ALL the bonus upfront and then making an escape hatch in the contract around year 2 or 3.

Next off-season is when we will know. Once Bell signs, either here or elswhere is when people will start leaking the #'s and telling the "real" story.

[steelreserve]

I always thought the math on the leaked info was goofy/incomplete.

Year 1 being anything other than the entire signing bonus + a real low salary (exactly what they did with AB) never made sense to me.

The Steelers have learned their lesson(s) from having to restructure salaries because of prorated bonuses out over time. More and More you see them paying out ALL the bonus upfront and then making an escape hatch in the contract around year 2 or 3.

Next off-season is when we will know. Once Bell signs, either here or elswhere is when people will start leaking the #'s and telling the "real" story.


I think in past years, we always did it that way (signing bonus, low upfront salary) because we had to. Great way of kicking the can down the road when you have no cap space, but boy do you eat shit when it all comes due. Fortunately, we ate shit at a time when all it cost us was Wallace, Sanders, and a bunch of draft busts who weren't worth it anyway.

But if you have the cap space, yeah, the other way of doing it is way smarter. Not just for cap reasons, but for no longer having the choice of having to carry dead-weight players or dead money long after they've stopped being useful to you. I would be surprised if we didn't do it this way with Bell.

I would expect that if we still have Ben on the roster for next year, and Bell isn't injured or suspended, we will just give him a second franchise tag to make one last push. After that, he probably isn't coming back anyway.

[Mojouw]

I think in past years, we always did it that way (signing bonus, low upfront salary) because we had to. Great way of kicking the can down the road when you have no cap space, but boy do you eat shit when it all comes due. Fortunately, we ate shit at a time when all it cost us was Wallace, Sanders, and a bunch of draft busts who weren't worth it anyway.

But if you have the cap space, yeah, the other way of doing it is way smarter. Not just for cap reasons, but for no longer having the choice of having to carry dead-weight players or dead money long after they've stopped being useful to you. I would be surprised if we didn't do it this way with Bell.

I would expect that if we still have Ben on the roster for next year, and Bell isn't injured or suspended, we will just give him a second franchise tag to make one last push. After that, he probably isn't coming back anyway.

They are going to potentially have to get "cute" again with a few contracts. IF all of these high round draft picks start panning out on defense, you are going to have to find a way to carry all these guys on the books:

Davis
Burns
Dupree
Shazier
Heyward
Tuitt
Watt
Hargrave

I'm guessing it can be done by staggering some of the payouts and extensions, etc. But it is going to get tricky. Especially if they try to keep AB, Bryant, and Bell...

[AtlantaDan]

They are going to potentially have to get "cute" again with a few contracts. IF all of these high round draft picks start panning out on defense, you are going to have to find a way to carry all these guys on the books:

Davis
Burns
Dupree
Shazier
Heyward
Tuitt
Watt
Hargrave

I'm guessing it can be done by staggering some of the payouts and extensions, etc. But it is going to get tricky. Especially if they try to keep AB, Bryant, and Bell...

Might have $12 million per year free up in 2018 and 2019 if Roethlisberger does not play out the remainder of his contract:couch:

Due base salaries of $12 million each season and including his prorated bonus amount of $6.2 million, Roethlisberger is set to cost Pittsburgh $18.2 million against the cap in 2017. He will account for $23.2 million in both 2018 and 2019 thanks to an additional roster bonus of $5 million owed each year.

http://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2017/01/24/implications-for-steelers-salary-cap-from-a-potential-ben-roethlisberger-retirement/
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/ben-roethlisberger-3595/

[Mojouw]

Might have $12 million per year free up in 2018 and 2019 if Roethlisberger does not play out the remainder of his contract:couch:

Due base salaries of $12 million each season and including his prorated bonus amount of $6.2 million, Roethlisberger is set to cost Pittsburgh $18.2 million against the cap in 2017. He will account for $23.2 million in both 2018 and 2019 thanks to an additional roster bonus of $5 million owed each year.

http://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2017/01/24/implications-for-steelers-salary-cap-from-a-potential-ben-roethlisberger-retirement/
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/ben-roethlisberger-3595/

FREE JOSH DOBBS!

[steelreserve]

They are going to potentially have to get "cute" again with a few contracts. IF all of these high round draft picks start panning out on defense, you are going to have to find a way to carry all these guys on the books:

Davis
Burns
Dupree
Shazier
Heyward
Tuitt
Watt
Hargrave

I'm guessing it can be done by staggering some of the payouts and extensions, etc. But it is going to get tricky. Especially if they try to keep AB, Bryant, and Bell...


AB and Heyward shouldn't be a problem, I wouldn't think, since they're both on long-term deals and anything more would be a downside deal ... out of the others, I'd guess basically pick one who we can get for $5-6M, one who will replace Pouncey's contract because I don't think he's going to be around forever, and one or two more out of the rest. We will probably have to find another LB and/or DL prospect in the draft soon, because if Burns or Davis is really any good, I don't think he'll be one we let go of.

[86WARD]

Falcons sign Freeman to a 5-year $41.25M deal.

[AtlantaDan]

Falcons sign Freeman to a 5-year $41.25M deal.

The deal has a $15 million signing bonus and includes $22 million in guaranteed money. Because NFL contracts are not fully guaranteed, Freeman’s deal is essentially a three-year extension with $26 million in the first three years.

http://www.ajc.com/sports/football/falcons-reach-year-million-contract-extension-with-devonta-freeman/sXWElHfCndi2m1dsD1Qq7I/

[BlackAndGold]

If Bell accepted his contract, he would still be making $4mil more than Freeman, whom just became the highest paid RB.

Bell is an idiot for passing that contract up.

[AtlantaDan]

If Bell accepted his contract, he would still be making $4mil more than Freeman, whom just became the highest paid RB.

Bell is an idiot for passing that contract up.

Since agents like to get paid either Bell's agent also is a moron or cannot get through to his client

My guess is this is on Bell, given his history of suspensions and puzzling refusal to sign the one year tag deal

Once he does, that money becomes fully guaranteed. Until then, Bell, who has posted on his social media outlets that he is training in Florida, would get nothing if he were injured. It’s a risky stance to take on the part of Bell.

http://www.observer-reporter.com/20170808/colbert_steelers_getting_ready_with_or_without_bel l

[DesertSteel]

Since agents like to get paid either Bell's agent also is a moron or cannot get through to his client

My guess is this is on Bell, given his history of suspensions and puzzling refusal to sign the one year tag deal

Once he does, that money becomes fully guaranteed. Until then, Bell, who has posted on his social media outlets that he is training in Florida, would get nothing if he were injured. It’s a risky stance to take on the part of Bell.

http://www.observer-reporter.com/20170808/colbert_steelers_getting_ready_with_or_without_bel l


It wouldn't surprise me if a guy like that got hurt doing his own workouts, thus causing the Steelers to rescind their tag.

[Born2Steel]

If Conner and Watson can combine to be a great tandem of brute and finesse, it becomes less important.

[AtlantaDan]

Apparently Colbert has decided this has gone on long enough

“My feeling is there’s nothing to be gained by a holdout,” Colbert told the Post-Gazette at the team’s training camp at Saint Vincent College. “The situation won’t change, it can’t really change from our part on a long-term deal.

“So it hurts him not to be here. It hurts him because he’s not working with his teammates, he’s not getting the conditioning work that he’s going to need to have a great 2017 season. And he’s not working with his teammates to get acclimated to the offense — every year it’s different.”

“Really, a holdout does not benefit him in any way,” Colbert said. “So, again, I hope that he sees the benefits of being here and comes in here sooner than later.”

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2017/08/09/leveon-bell-contract-status-pittsburgh-steelers-training-camp-holdout/stories/201708090130

[BurghBoy412]

Why would Colbert expect this guy for more than 12 games of work? If Bell gets his contract I wonder if his play will fall off a cliff? I suspect it will.

[AtlantaDan]

If Bell gets his contract I wonder if his play will fall off a cliff? I suspect it will.

After the Steelers saw Woodley quit during his contract and Troy decline drastically during his last contract as his injury history took him down IMO the Steelers share some of those concerns

[BurghBoy412]

After the Steelers saw Woodley quit during his contract and Troy decline drastically during his last contract as his injury history took him down IMO the Steelers share some of those concerns If I was in their shoes I would be wary. IMO Bell will get paid I don't doubt that. I doubt it's in Pittsburgh.

[salamander]

I feel absolutely zero sympathy for Bell. The Steelers offered to make him the highest paid RB in the league. The more he holds out, the greedier he looks.

[steelreserve]

“Really, a holdout does not benefit him in any way,” Colbert said. “So, again, I hope that he sees the benefits of being here and comes in here sooner than later.”

No shit. By rule, we can't offer him a multi-year deal until the offseason. He's accomplishing the same as he would by yelling at the air. Every day this goes on just deprives the offense of practice time together, and makes him look like more of a dick.

[GBMelBlount]

After the Steelers saw Woodley quit during his contract and Troy decline drastically during his last contract as his injury history took him down IMO the Steelers share some of those concerns

It seems to me Tomlin and the FO have learned from their mistakes and are making much better decisions on contracts in general.

For example, I think the 2nd contracts for Villaneuva and Browns are examples of getting great value by negotiating at the beginning of a strong upward trajectory.

I was ecstatic when they locked up Brown and let OTP walk.

https://media.giphy.com/media/10sfPt9aiJoFLG/giphy.gif

[lipps83]

Don't want him long term anyway. Replaceable.

And yes, he is the best back in the league. On this offense, he is a nice to have, not a need.

[DesertSteel]

Don't want him long term anyway. Replaceable.

And yes, he is the best back in the league. On this offense, he is a nice to have, not a need.
Two more years of pounding and he may no be the GORN.

[Mojouw]

Bell is not replaceable. Can this offense succeed at a high level without him? Sure. Replaceable? Not even a conversation without a trade for David Johnson or Joe woman puncher.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[86WARD]

David Johnson is the only player that could "replace" Bell. No one else could. However, if Bell doesn't show up until mid season and Conner shows some promise and stays healthy, I'd sit Bell in the bench, wait until he becomes a locker room cancer then suspend him for conduct detrimental to the team and then do the whole thing over again next year.

[DesertSteel]

David Johnson is the only player that could "replace" Bell. No one else could. However, if Bell doesn't show up until mid season and Conner shows some promise and stays healthy, I'd sit Bell in the bench, wait until he becomes a locker room cancer then suspend him for conduct detrimental to the team and then do the whole thing over again next year.
If he didn't show up till mid season, I'd pull the tag.

[86WARD]

If he didn't show up till mid season, I'd pull the tag.

I wouldn't. That would probably be what he wanted you to do. I'd make him suffer. Who would sign a back that's two years older hasn't played in two years and was somewhat injury prone when he did play to an $8M/year deal?

[pczach]

I wouldn't. That would probably be what he wanted you to do. I'd make him suffer. Who would sign a back that's two years older hasn't played in two years and was somewhat injury prone when he did play to an $8M/year deal?

...and if he doesn't play, I think the team might still be able to franchise him for two more years if they choose to.

I'm not really sure about that, but I think I heard that somewhere.

[SteelMember]

...and if he doesn't play, I think the team might still be able to franchise him for two more years if they choose to.

I'm not really sure about that, but I think I heard that somewhere.

Would you waste your tag again though? Pretty much gotta cut bait at that point.
He'll probably sign it after the last preseason game... hopefully.

[86WARD]

Who else would you put it on at that stage?

[hawaiiansteeler]

Would you waste your tag again though?

yes, I would

[Butch]

Would you waste your tag again though? Pretty much gotta cut bait at that point.
He'll probably sign it after the last preseason game... hopefully.

I agree better to let him walk. The steelers don't usually try to keep players around that are disgruntled. Besides we don't need a locker room cancer. I said it before and I will say it again. I think we had a cancer with sucker punch and I truely believe that he is as much as anything the reason we are having problems with bell at this point. I won't be surprised to see him sign by the last pre-season game or shortly there after, but I certainly hope if he is a cancer we get him off team immediately. I'm sure the cheats won't hesitate to pick him up.

[teegre]

yes, I would

Amen!!!

If he sits out a year, I would 100% tag him twice. He'd be an 8-year vet, who is 3 years past the current contract put on the table. Time/age is HIS enemy.

[pczach]

Amen!!!

If he sits out a year, I would 100% tag him twice. He'd be an 8-year vet, who is 3 years past the current contract put on the table. Time/age is HIS enemy.


I agree.

Bell is playing a very dangerous game if he decides to sit out. If I were the team, I would stick it to him in the worst way possible and force him to stay here and either play....or not make money. If he doesn't play, he doesn't make money and he loses a precious year of earning from his career. It would also possibly force him to stay here even longer and prevent him from signing a huge long-term deal somewhere else because he will have much less tread on his tires when he does eventually hit the open market as you said.

It's hard to believe that we are even having this discussion about the best running back in the NFL not playing for an entire season after he was offered 5-7 million dollars/year more than the highest paid running back in the league and he turned it down.

I think it's clear at this point that Colbert and the Steelers organization are not happy with Bell and the way he has handled this situation.

He's going to lose a lot of fans, a lot of money, and a lot of control of his future if he doesn't play this year.

[Steeldude]

Let him rot. I don't care if he plays another down. Keep shrinking the offers.

IMO, he seems like the type who won't try after getting a big contract.

[BurghBoy412]

He has to play. He'll never get the money he wants if he doesn't play.

[teegre]

I agree.

Bell is playing a very dangerous game if he decides to sit out. If I were the team, I would stick it to him in the worst way possible and force him to stay here and either play....or not make money. If he doesn't play, he doesn't make money and he loses a precious year of earning from his career. It would also possibly force him to stay here even longer and prevent him from signing a huge long-term deal somewhere else because he will have much less tread on his tires when he does eventually hit the open market as you said.

It's hard to believe that we are even having this discussion about the best running back in the NFL not playing for an entire season after he was offered 5-7 million dollars/year more than the highest paid running back in the league and he turned it down.

I think it's clear at this point that Colbert and the Steelers organization are not happy with Bell and the way he has handled this situation.

He's going to lose a lot of fans, a lot of money, and a lot of control of his future if he doesn't play this year.

I agree 100%.

That said, if he has any sense, he'll show up & play. Giving up $12 million (mathematically speaking) would be nearly impossible to regain... especially if he can still be tagged two more times.

[Hawkman]

My prediction, he will sign after the second pre-season game.