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polamalubeast
05-24-2017, 03:04 PM
2) Pittsburgh Steelers


A strong argument can be made that quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, running back Le'Veon Bell and receiver Antonio Brown are the NFL's best set of triplets. The offensive line -- including left tackle Alejandro Villanueva and right guard David DeCastro -- is top-notch, while the receiver corps is very deep. JuJu Smith-Schuster will make a good addition at receiver, and fellow rookie James Conner is an ideal fit at running back in terms of his ability to catch and run. The defensive line has three good, young players in Javon Hargrave, Cameron Heyward and Stephon Tuitt, and linebacker Ryan Shazier is the real deal. The biggest weakness is at outside linebacker, where first-round pick T.J. Watt needs to contribute immediately. The secondary will continue to improve as cornerback Artie Burns and safety Sean Davis develop. The bottom line: This team can beat you in a lot of different ways.


read more


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000810782/article/patriots-steelers-falcons-among-nfls-10-most-talented-teams?campaign=fb-nf-sf81591112-sf81591112

Six Rings
05-24-2017, 04:02 PM
I wish I could say I valued what Brandt has to say. He's been anti Pittsburgh for years, now a bandwagon jumper?

polamalubeast
05-24-2017, 04:59 PM
I wish I could say I valued what Brandt has to say. He's been anti Pittsburgh for years, now a bandwagon jumper?


Maybe but he's right that the steelers are very talented.

SteelerFanInStl
05-24-2017, 05:45 PM
All of the crying from the Seahawks fans is hysterical!

GBMelBlount
05-24-2017, 06:56 PM
Tomlin has done a very good job of drafting and developing talent in recent years.

The offense is absolutely loaded (very glad we drafted juJu),

and the defense will also be better this year after finishing top 10 in points.

Tomlin has done everything possible, personnel-wise, to build a team around Ben to allow him to win one more Lombardi before he retires.

Now we just need the injury gods to smile upon us and properly prepare for each game.

fansince'76
05-24-2017, 08:58 PM
I wish I could say I valued what Brandt has to say. He's been anti Pittsburgh for years, now a bandwagon jumper?

Not to mention he's gotta be pushing 100 years old at this point. :old:


All of the crying from the Seahawks fans is hysterical!

Rainy City Bitch Pigeons fans are pathetic...

polamalubeast
05-26-2017, 10:59 AM
Interesting to see that the Ravens are not in the top 10 and that the steelers are 2nd but despite that, the Ravens almost won the division in 2016.I was not crazy when I said John Harbaugh was a better coach than Tomlin almost 2 months ago.


http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/26901-Pittsburgh-Steelers-10-Year-Report-Card-for-Mike-Tomlin

Mojouw
05-26-2017, 11:31 AM
Interesting to see that the Ravens are not in the top 10 and that the steelers are 2nd but despite that, the Ravens almost won the division in 2016.I was not crazy when I said John Harbaugh was a better coach than Tomlin almost 2 months ago.


http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/26901-Pittsburgh-Steelers-10-Year-Report-Card-for-Mike-Tomlin

So because some dude went 8-8 and kinda sorta had a shot at the division, before the Tomlin led Steelers won the game and the division - he's a better coach?

That logic is more contorted than a pretzel. If we apply the same parameters to Tomlin, he has to get credit for the 2009, 2012, and 2013 seasons where he had his team in contention for the division crown and/or playoffs until late in the season as well.

The Ravens have done a great job of restocking the defense. On offense, they have surrounded Flacco with veterans and then a bunch of crap. The o-line is leaky and the draft classes have been struggling. As a response, Harbaugh has started to change coordinators like I change socks.

Harbaugh has offered zero innovations on offense or defense to attempt to halt the Ravens slide to the middle. Look at his record - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/

Why does no one piss and moan that he only won his SB with Brian Billick's team and now the team is just terrible and losses tons of games it should win and the Steelers are in their heads?

I mean everyone is a better coach than Tomlin if you keep putting your thumb on the scale. What has Harbaugh done that represents an actual coaching achievement that Tomlin has not equaled or exceeded?

polamalubeast
05-26-2017, 11:44 AM
So because some dude went 8-8 and kinda sorta had a shot at the division, before the Tomlin led Steelers won the game and the division - he's a better coach?

That logic is more contorted than a pretzel. If we apply the same parameters to Tomlin, he has to get credit for the 2009, 2012, and 2013 seasons where he had his team in contention for the division crown and/or playoffs until late in the season as well.

The Ravens have done a great job of restocking the defense. On offense, they have surrounded Flacco with veterans and then a bunch of crap. The o-line is leaky and the draft classes have been struggling. As a response, Harbaugh has started to change coordinators like I change socks.

Harbaugh has offered zero innovations on offense or defense to attempt to halt the Ravens slide to the middle. Look at his record - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/

Why does no one piss and moan that he only won his SB with Brian Billick's team and now the team is just terrible and losses tons of games it should win and the Steelers are in their heads?

I mean everyone is a better coach than Tomlin if you keep putting your thumb on the scale. What has Harbaugh done that represents an actual coaching achievement that Tomlin has not equaled or exceeded?

The Ravens had 0 playoff win between 2002 to 2007 before Harbaugh is the HC in Baltimore.Their offense during this time was painful to watch.

Their offense is far from elite, but at least the ravens are respectable for most of the time, which has helped the ravens to win 10 playoffs games since 2008, even if the Ravens have had very little elite talent at their offense.Their offense was the reason why they won the super bowl in 2012 as well.


The problem in recent years for the Ravens is the lack of elite talent...Who are the playmaker for the Ravens in offense and defense?...The Steelers have a lot of playmaker in recent years, especially on offense.

The steelers were better in the last few years than the Ravens, but I don't think the difference is the HC.

Mojouw
05-26-2017, 12:04 PM
The Ravens had 0 playoff win between 2002 to 2007 before Harbaugh is the HC in Baltimore.Their offense during this time was painful to watch.

Their offense is far from elite, but at least the ravens are respectable for most of the time, which has helped the ravens to win 10 playoffs games since 2008, even if the Ravens have had very little elite talent at their offense.Their offense was the reason why they won the super bowl in 2012 as well.


The problem in recent years for the Ravens is the lack of elite talent...Who are the playmaker for the Ravens in offense and defense?...The Steelers have a lot of playmaker in recent years, especially on offense.

The steelers were better in the last few years than the Ravens, but I don't think the difference is the HC.

Again, I am aware of the roster situation for both teams. I am also aware that Tomlin has won 8 more games than Harbaugh and never had a losing season.

If the Ravens lack elite talent and that tarnishes Tomlin because he has elite talent - then doesn't Harbaugh get some blame for lack of playmakers and Tomlin some credit for revamping an entire roster?

All the Harbaugh fanboys can never identify what it is that he actually does. His teams consistently fold in big games. All he is is a Ryan brother in a slicker package. His teams get by on swagger and physicality and tend to be at a loss when another team matches that intensity. Under his guidance the Ravens have changed little in either their offensive or defensive philosophies. Meanwhile under Tomlin's guidance the Steelers have made significant updates to both of theirs that attempt to make adaptations to league wide changes.

As for making the offense better, all that happened is that they got Ray Rice and a competent QB at the same time. Not super hard to figure out to get the ball to Ray RIce or the TE then take a few moonball shots.

DesertSteel
05-26-2017, 12:25 PM
Interesting to see that the Ravens are not in the top 10 and that the steelers are 2nd but despite that, the Ravens almost won the division in 2016.I was not crazy when I said John Harbaugh was a better coach than Tomlin almost 2 months ago.


http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/26901-Pittsburgh-Steelers-10-Year-Report-Card-for-Mike-Tomlin
Finishing 3 games back is not "almost winning the division" lol.

Mojouw
05-26-2017, 01:02 PM
I know this is threatening to derail this thread, but I really wish people would take the time to think through an argument before just running with it. I also hesitated to post all this because I really don't want to come off as personally trashing a great poster in polamalubeast. That being said...I know right -- the internet equivalent of "no disrespect..."

We are talking about this head coach -- http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/12/31/report-john-harbaugh-likely-to-fire-marty-mornhinweg/

People freak out that Tomlin fired 2 coordinators in Arians and Lebeau to "scapegoat" his failures as a coach. Harbaugh is on 6 OC's and at least one or two DC's now. But he is the better coach?

People say that BB is in Tomlin's head. Let us not forget that this what the Patriots did to Harbaugh -- http://deadspin.com/the-patriots-annoyed-john-harbaugh-by-having-fun-with-e-1678818453 and something that Harbaugh whines about to this day.

Can you imagine if the Steelers got whupped by a eligible receiver ploy? I mean people would lose their minds. But Harbaugh is the better coach.

Since 2008, Tomlin has won more games and accumulated better overall talent. Now is that on Colbert and Newsome and not the coaches? I don't know, but Tomlin seems to get the players he asks for. Same must be reasonably extended to Harbaugh. This isn't exactly a murders row of draft wins - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/draft.htm

Meanwhile with this record - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/draft.htm -- Tomlin is routinely called an idiot after every draft. Hell, the Ravens best offensive player was drafted by Tomlin.

But because Harbaugh has beat the Patriots a couple of times he gets put in this special level of coaching genius. Other than that, what is there to recommend him? Every time his roster has faced similar challenges and injuries that Tomlin led teams routinely overcome -- they've folded like a cheap suit. Now that the Ryans are out of the league, I have the Harbaugh boys as the next best contenders for the all hat and no cowboy crown.

st33lersguy
05-26-2017, 01:18 PM
Interesting to see that the Ravens are not in the top 10 and that the steelers are 2nd but despite that, the Ravens almost won the division in 2016.I was not crazy when I said John Harbaugh was a better coach than Tomlin almost 2 months ago.


http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/26901-Pittsburgh-Steelers-10-Year-Report-Card-for-Mike-Tomlin

Yeah going 8-8 last year and 13-19 the last 2 years without a top 10 roster is really sometihng to be proud of.

Harbaugh has had a losing record since Ray Lewis retired and Ed Reed was cut and Harbaugh has had fewer playoff appearances since that time than Tomlin had playoff wins last year. But I guess none of that matters since John Harbaugh beat Bellichick and Brady 3 times (out of 9 tries mind you)

pczach
05-26-2017, 03:05 PM
I know this is threatening to derail this thread, but I really wish people would take the time to think through an argument before just running with it. I also hesitated to post all this because I really don't want to come off as personally trashing a great poster in polamalubeast. That being said...I know right -- the internet equivalent of "no disrespect..."

We are talking about this head coach -- http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/12/31/report-john-harbaugh-likely-to-fire-marty-mornhinweg/

People freak out that Tomlin fired 2 coordinators in Arians and Lebeau to "scapegoat" his failures as a coach. Harbaugh is on 6 OC's and at least one or two DC's now. But he is the better coach?

People say that BB is in Tomlin's head. Let us not forget that this what the Patriots did to Harbaugh -- http://deadspin.com/the-patriots-annoyed-john-harbaugh-by-having-fun-with-e-1678818453 and something that Harbaugh whines about to this day.

Can you imagine if the Steelers got whupped by a eligible receiver ploy? I mean people would lose their minds. But Harbaugh is the better coach.

Since 2008, Tomlin has won more games and accumulated better overall talent. Now is that on Colbert and Newsome and not the coaches? I don't know, but Tomlin seems to get the players he asks for. Same must be reasonably extended to Harbaugh. This isn't exactly a murders row of draft wins - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/draft.htm

Meanwhile with this record - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/draft.htm -- Tomlin is routinely called an idiot after every draft. Hell, the Ravens best offensive player was drafted by Tomlin.

But because Harbaugh has beat the Patriots a couple of times he gets put in this special level of coaching genius. Other than that, what is there to recommend him? Every time his roster has faced similar challenges and injuries that Tomlin led teams routinely overcome -- they've folded like a cheap suit. Now that the Ryans are out of the league, I have the Harbaugh boys as the next best contenders for the all hat and no cowboy crown.



I agree with you on all of this. Tomlin gets killed by much of his own fan base for any misstep, or perceived misstep, every single time.

Here's where I think some Steelers fans get there opinion of Harbaugh:

1. He has seemed to do well in head-to-head matchups with Tomlin.

2. He has had some success against the Patriots....where Tomlin has not.

I'm not saying that I think Harbaugh is a better coach than Tomlin because I don't believe that at all. I'm trying to explain where I think much of the legend of John Harbaugh comes from around here.

Fans just never want to hear that sometimes certain teams just match up well with you. In the minds of many, the Patriots are far superior to the Steelers and that the Steelers only won Super Bowls because they didn't have to go through the Patriots to get there. It doesn't matter that the Pats can't seem to beat the Giants and struggled against the Ravens and the Broncos.

It's simply a case of fans overreacting because they were hurt by things that affected them personally. The coach always takes the brunt of that anger.

polamalubeast
05-26-2017, 03:11 PM
I have several things to answer, that it is impossible to answer all!



Yeah going 8-8 last year and 13-19 the last 2 years without a top 10 roster is really sometihng to be proud of.

Harbaugh has had a losing record since Ray Lewis retired and Ed Reed was cut and Harbaugh has had fewer playoff appearances since that time than Tomlin had playoff wins last year. But I guess none of that matters since John Harbaugh beat Bellichick and Brady 3 times (out of 9 tries mind you)

Lewis and Reed was done in 2012!...It was one of the worst defense of history to win a superbowl!

In fact, the biggest loss of ravens after 2012 was Boldin.



Finishing 3 games back is not "almost winning the division" lol.

If the Ravens win week 16 against us, the ravens win the division.I hope you get recalled how the game was close!

And it is not true that the Bengals would have helped the steelers in week 17!



All the Harbaugh fanboys can never identify what it is that he actually does. His teams consistently fold in big games.

It's so false!....I mean, Harbaugh is 10-5 in his career in the playoffs and the Ravens never lost when his team was favorite and they won several games when his team was underdog!

And in their defeats, they were competitive at every games except for the defeat against the Colts in 2009.The other 4 losses, the Ravens had a chance to win despite the Ravens were underdogs at each of its games




People say that BB is in Tomlin's head. Let us not forget that this what the Patriots did to Harbaugh

The difference is that the Ravens have almost always been competitive against the Patriots, which is not the case for Tomlin.The pats are more afraid of the Ravens than the steelers at the moment, although the Steelers have more talent than the Ravens.



People freak out that Tomlin fired 2 coordinators in Arians and Lebeau to "scapegoat" his failures as a coach. Harbaugh is on 6 OC's and at least one or two DC's now. But he is the better coach?

2 left the Ravens to become head coach....

Marc Trestman was a horrible hire, but Tomlin also made some atrocious hire too

The ST have always been horrible under Tomlin and Tomlin has hired an awful o-line coach for the 2013 season, which has cost this season by themselves .

Mojouw
05-26-2017, 03:16 PM
I agree with you on all of this. Tomlin gets killed by much of his own fan base for any misstep, or perceived misstep, every single time.

Here's where I think some Steelers fans get there opinion of Harbaugh:

1. He has seemed to do well in head-to-head matchups with Tomlin.

2. He has had some success against the Patriots....where Tomlin has not.

I'm not saying that I think Harbaugh is a better coach than Tomlin because I don't believe that at all. I'm trying to explain where I think much of the legend of John Harbaugh comes from around here.

Fans just never want to hear that sometimes certain teams just match up well with you. In the minds of many, the Patriots are far superior to the Steelers and that the Steelers only won Super Bowls because they didn't have to go through the Patriots to get there. It doesn't matter that the Pats can't seem to beat the Giants and struggled against the Ravens and the Broncos.

It's simply a case of fans overreacting because they were hurt by things that affected them personally. The coach always takes the brunt of that anger.

Well said. I just think that an knee-jerk emotional reaction based on two biased data-points is a faulty way to construct an argument. I realize that there is some validity to the frustration that the lies behind the argument and there are facts to back any position anyone wants to take, but despite the mountain of media related to the NFL little of football related discussion is data driven.

Articles and lists of rankings and ratings come out everyday. Very few, if any, establish how their evaluations were arrived at or based on. I kinda feel like it isn't that hard to establish a set of parameters and stick to it.

Mojouw
05-26-2017, 03:27 PM
I have several things to answer, that it is impossible to answer all!

Almost none of those things are equivalent. STs coaches versus coordinators? C'mon.

http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/baltimore-ravens/teamvsteam?opp=19 - 3 wins and 6 losses.

http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/teamvsteam?opp=19 - 2 wins and 5 losses

So the Pats things is just basically an inflated and skewed perception based on all of our emotional reactions to heartbreaking losses by our favorite team.

Spin Harbaugh's record all you want. Tomlin's is better in Wins and Losses since the two have both been in the league - http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/pittsburgh-steelers-opinions-reactions-news-updates/2016/11/27/13598242/why-mike-tomlin-having-1-playoff-win-in-5-years-is-a-meaningless

DesertSteel
05-26-2017, 03:36 PM
If the Ravens win week 16 against us, the ravens win the division.I hope you get recalled how the game was close!



If Ifs and Buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a great Christmas. 8-8 is 8-8. 11-5 is 11-5.

polamalubeast
05-26-2017, 03:40 PM
If Ifs and Buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a great Christmas. 8-8 is 8-8. 11-5 is 11-5.



Yes, but it does not been easy for steelers to win this division.

DesertSteel
05-26-2017, 03:44 PM
Yes, but it does not been easy for steelers to win this division.
Of course not. The AFCN has not been the cakewalk that the Patriots get every year in the East.

teegre
05-26-2017, 04:01 PM
8-8 is 8-8. 11-5 is 11-5.

Wrong!!!

8-8 > 11-5

Mojouw
05-26-2017, 04:10 PM
In 2015 the Ravens went 2-4 without Flacco.

Taking out the five Tommy Maddox games (2-3) in 2004 the Steelers are 11-8 in games not started by Roethlisberger since 2005 - most of those coming in Tomlin's tenure.

Tell me again how Harbaugh is a better coach?

teegre
05-26-2017, 04:17 PM
In 2015 the Ravens went 2-4 without Flacco.

Taking out the five Tommy Maddox games (2-3) in 2004 the Steelers are 11-8 in games not started by Roethlisberger since 2005 - most of those coming in Tomlin's tenure.

Tell me again how Harbaugh is a better coach?

1) 4 losses is better than 8 losses.

2) Those 8 losses were to sub .200 teams.

3. Three of those losses to sub .200 teams were Harbaugh-led Ravens teams.

polamalubeast
05-26-2017, 04:25 PM
If the win-loss record would be the only thing that is important for a HC, Chuck Noll would be the 3rd best coach in Steelers history behind Cowher and Tomlin.

I mean, we have to look at the quality of the roster before ....

Mojouw
05-26-2017, 04:32 PM
If the win-loss record would be the only thing that is important for a HC, Chuck Noll would be the 3rd best coach in Steelers history behind Cowher and Tomlin.

I mean, we have to look at the quality of the roster before ....

Fine. Establish specific criteria for evaluating a HC. I will gladly take Tomlin against the field. Is he the best? Nope. Is he better than a select group? Almost certainly by any measure.

Now if it is all going to be based on this feels more important than that -- well we are done.

FWIW - Noll apparently shouldn't be regarded as that good of a coach because he got the majority of those wins with the most loaded roster of all time.

polamalubeast
05-26-2017, 04:38 PM
Fine. Establish specific criteria for evaluating a HC. I will gladly take Tomlin against the field. Is he the best? Nope. Is he better than a select group? Almost certainly by any measure.

Now if it is all going to be based on this feels more important than that -- well we are done.

FWIW - Noll apparently shouldn't be regarded as that good of a coach because he got the majority of those wins with the most loaded roster of all time.

The difference is this is Noll who built the steelers of the 1970s.

Tomlin is a very good coach, but it's just that I think Harbaugh(also Sean Payton,etc) is better.

Mojouw
05-26-2017, 04:53 PM
The difference is this is Noll who built the steelers of the 1970s.

Tomlin is a very good coach, but it's just that I think Harbaugh(also Sean Payton,etc) is better.

And a scouting staff that was all over non-traditional sources of players. And Rooney. And a host of others that I am likely forgetting. Was Noll an amazing coach and incredible teacher? Absolutely. But he can not be given all of the credit for building the Steelers of the 1970's and then turn around and have Tomlin get none of the credit for the recent/current Steelers.

Again, I will ask it as plainly as I can: I am interested in understanding what your thinking that Harbaugh, Payton, etc are better HC than Tomlin is based on? I honestly am. But if we are going to use metrics (wins and losses, winning %'s etc ) then you have chosen a hard road to hoe.

polamalubeast
05-26-2017, 05:11 PM
And a scouting staff that was all over non-traditional sources of players. And Rooney. And a host of others that I am likely forgetting. Was Noll an amazing coach and incredible teacher? Absolutely. But he can not be given all of the credit for building the Steelers of the 1970's and then turn around and have Tomlin get none of the credit for the recent/current Steelers.

Again, I will ask it as plainly as I can: I am interested in understanding what your thinking that Harbaugh, Payton, etc are better HC than Tomlin is based on? I honestly am. But if we are going to use metrics (wins and losses, winning %'s etc ) then you have chosen a hard road to hoe.

I'm not saying that Tomlin deserves no credit, since he is a good coach, but it's just I think a few coaches are better.

For Harbaugh, when his roster was very good (2008 to 2012), he had a great success despite that Flacco is far from being the best QB of the Nfl.In its 5 years, the ravens have been in the AFC title game three times and they have always been competitive in the playoffs

I think Harbaugh is a much better coach in the playoffs than Tomlin.Never one and done in his career, never lost as a favorite, his team has always been very hard to beat and the ravens have won a lot of game as underdog on the road in the playoffs.



For Sean Payton, Payton only needs help to build an acceptable defense.When the Saints defense was average (2009 to 2011), Payton had a great success.

Also, Payton is one of the best offensive mind of the NFL.Him with the talent of the Steelers,the Steelers would be able to beat some records!

st33lersguy
05-26-2017, 06:55 PM
Tomlin has been able to win with a new team when the old vets retired and after roster turnover occurred, Harbaugh hasn't


Him with the talent of the Steelers,the Steelers would be able to beat some records!

Doesn't this statement reflect better on Tomlin's player development?

teegre
05-27-2017, 10:10 AM
For Harbaugh, when his roster was very good (2008 to 2012)

I think Harbaugh is a much better coach in the playoffs than Tomlin.

Interesting that you mention those specific years... when Tomlin was 2-0 versus Harbsugh in the playoffs.

polamalubeast
05-27-2017, 11:07 AM
Interesting that you mention those specific years... when Tomlin was 2-0 versus Harbsugh in the playoffs.

In regular season, Harbaugh and Tomlin are at the same level (Tomlin made the playoffs 7/10 and Harbaugh 6/9) but Harbaugh has the advantage for the playoffs for the reasons I said.

2 very good coach, of course Tomlin has a case on Harbaugh, but it is the case for Harbaugh too.

I don't understand why it's ridiculous to think that Harbaugh is a better coach than Tomlin....2 similar resume.

teegre
05-27-2017, 12:14 PM
In regular season, Harbaugh and Tomlin are at the same level (Tomlin made the playoffs 7/10 and Harbaugh 6/9) but Harbaugh has the advantage for the playoffs for the reasons I said.

2 very good coach, of course Tomlin has a case on Harbaugh, but it is the case for Harbaugh too.

I don't understand why it's ridiculous to think that Harbaugh is a better coach than Tomlin....2 similar resume.

Again, when the teams were both in their primes, Tomlin was 2-0 versus Harbaugh in the playoffs.

I don't understand how that makes Harbaugh the better coach. :huh:



I guess that it is the same faulty logic that says that Harbaugh's 8-8 record in 2016 was better than Tomlin's 11-5 record.

polamalubeast
05-27-2017, 12:29 PM
Again, when the teams were both in their primes, Tomlin was 2-0 versus Harbaugh in the playoffs.

I don't understand how that makes Harbaugh the better coach.

Both games were in Pittsburgh...In 2008, the Ravens have given a Good Fight to the steelers, although the Ravens were banged up for this game and that Harbaugh had a rookie QB for this game.

In 2010, the Ravens choked, so you can blame Harbaugh for it if you want, but he had some plays that Harbaugh had no control as the drops by the receivers.



I guess that it is the same faulty logic that says that Harbaugh's 8-8 record in 2016 was better than Tomlin's 11-5 record.


I just said that the Ravens were very close to win the division.

In fact, if Antonio Brown does not do his immaculate extension, the game is over, our season is over and the Ravens win the Division and Tomlin would have been killed by the media for his playcall if Brown would have been tackled.Almost everyone would have said for the entire offseason that Tomlin is just a cheerleader if Brown would not have made his immaculate extension.This extension was out of his control, but the playcall was very risky.

teegre
05-27-2017, 12:44 PM
Both games were in Pittsburgh...In 2008, the Ravens have given a Good Fight to the steelers, although the Ravens were banged up for this game and that Harbaugh had a rookie QB for this game.

In 2010, the Ravens choked, so you can blame Harbaugh for it if you want, but he had some plays that Harbaugh had no control as the drops by the receivers.





I just said that the Ravens were very close to win the division.

In fact, if Antonio Brown does not do his immaculate extension, the game is over, our season is over and the Ravens win the Division and Tomlin would have been killed by the media for his playcall if Brown would have been tackled.Almost everyone would have said for the entire offseason that Tomlin is just a cheerleader if Brown would not have made his immaculate extension.This extension was out of his control, but the playcall was very risky.

If Harbaugh wanted the game in Baltimore, maybe he should have won more games than the Steelers. :huh:

And, so you are saying that choking is okay for Harbaugh??? Okay. Got it.


If Joey Porter hangs on to that pick-six in 2001, the Steelers go to the SuperBowl. If one of those INTs in SuperBowl XXX was a TD instead, the Steelers win 24-20. If BB doesn't get sacked twice while in FG range, the Steelers beat Tebow in regulation in 2011. If the Broncos secondary doesn't lose its freakin' mind, the Ravens are one-&-done in 2012. If... if.. if...

polamalubeast
05-27-2017, 12:55 PM
If Harbaugh wanted the game in Baltimore, maybe he should have won more games than the Steelers. :huh:

And, so you are saying that choking is okay for Harbaugh??? Okay. Got it.


If Joey Porter hangs on to that pick-six in 2001, the Steelers go to the SuperBowl. If one of those INTs in SuperBowl XXX was a TD instead, the Steelers win 24-20. If BB doesn't get sacked twice while in FG range, the Steelers beat Tebow in regulation in 2011. If the Broncos secondary doesn't lose its freakin' mind, the Ravens are one-&-done in 2012. If... if.. if...


As I said, you can blame Harbaugh if you want for 2010.Not because the Ravens had a better team but because Baltimore were leading 21-7 at halftime.

It takes luck to win sometimes but the playcall at the end of the game against the Ravens were very risky, since the steelers had no timeout

With a defeat, the steelers would have been 3-10 against the Ravens since 2011 and the Ravens would have been in our head during the entire offseason instead of the Patriots.Better to be lucky than good sometimes!

teegre
05-27-2017, 01:13 PM
As I said, you can blame Harbaugh if you want for 2010.Not because the Ravens had a better team but because Baltimore were leading 21-7 at halftime.

It takes luck to win sometimes but the playcall at the end of the game against the Ravens were very risky, since the steelers had no timeout

With a defeat, the steelers would have been 3-10 against the Ravens since 2011 and the Ravens would have been in our head during the entire offseason instead of the Patriots.Better to be lucky than good sometimes!

Harbaugh's players getting a fluke fumble-recovery/TD is due to his coaching. But, Harbaugh's players dropping passes is not due to his coaching. Got it.

Likewise, Harbaugh's players dropping passes in 2010 is not due to his coaching. But, when one of Tomlin's players blows coverage in 2011 and that same Ravens player catches it (dropping the Steelers from the #2 seed and having to play Tebow) that is indeed due to Tomlin's coaching.


The AB touchdown is the perfect example of people who dislike Tomlin are going to find a reason to nitpick. If Tomlin had kicked the FG, these same people would be lambasting him for not having the moxie to go for the win. As it is, they win... and he's still chastised for it. Seriously. It's akin to those who complain that he doesn't win "by enough". Tomlin is in the epitome of a no-win situation.

teegre
05-27-2017, 01:19 PM
The Bengals have won 6 of the last 7 games against the Ravens.

Does that mean that Marvin Lewis is a better coach than John Harbaugh???

polamalubeast
05-27-2017, 01:32 PM
The AB touchdown is the perfect example of people who dislike Tomlin are going to find a reason to nitpick. If Tomlin had kicked the FG, these same people would be lambasting him for not having the moxie to go for the win. As it is, they win... and he's still chastised for it. Seriously. It's akin to those who complain that he doesn't win "by enough". Tomlin is in the epitome of a no-win situation.

I did not want that the steelers kick the field goal at the end of the game against the Ravens but the play was very risky(The pass outside of the endzone), since if Brown had been tackled, our season would have ended.

Fortunately, Brown made an incredible effort!



Harbaugh's players getting a fluke fumble-recovery/TD is due to his coaching. But, Harbaugh's players dropping passes is not due to his coaching. Got it.


The problem I have with the defensive TD is that the o-line of the steelers did not seem to know that the play was not over!

The coaching staff must teach to the players that the play is never dead, especially when the ball is on the ground!



Likewise, Harbaugh's players dropping passes in 2010 is not due to his coaching. But, when one of Tomlin's players blows coverage in 2011 (dropping the Steelers from the #2 seed and having to play Tebow) that is indeed due to Tomlin's coaching.

Even after our second defeat against the Ravens in 2011, our season was far from over, but unfortunately Tebow had his game of his life, because of an atrocious gameplan by the coaching staff(Tomlin and Lebeau).You must never put yourself in a vulnerable position against the deep ball in the NFL.

This is Tomlin's biggest black spot in his career, the defeat against Tebow.

- - - Updated - - -


The Bengals have won 6 of the last 7 games against the Ravens.

Does that mean that Marvin Lewis is a better coach than John Harbaugh???


Only if Lewis would be a good playoff coach.

Edman
05-27-2017, 03:13 PM
Tomlin's biggest blemishes are Tebow and his constant disasters against Belichick and Brady.

Other than that, there isn't much to complain about him.

GBMelBlount
05-27-2017, 04:58 PM
Tomlin has made more plays than Harbaugh.



http://i0.wp.com/img.gawkerassets.com/img/197t21jwajpfugif/ku-xlarge.gif?w=848

Butch
05-27-2017, 04:58 PM
who cares what Gil Brandt says?

tube517
05-27-2017, 05:05 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GflYTviOIag

SteelerFanInStl
05-27-2017, 05:33 PM
Tomlin has made more plays than Harbaugh.



http://i0.wp.com/img.gawkerassets.com/img/197t21jwajpfugif/ku-xlarge.gif?w=848

It's hilarious to me that this play has somehow evolved into Tomlin tripping Jones, as all of the haters describe it. You can see here that Jones didn't even move and wasn't affected by Tomlin at all.

Mojouw
05-28-2017, 03:13 PM
Both games were in Pittsburgh...In 2008, the Ravens have given a Good Fight to the steelers, although the Ravens were banged up for this game and that Harbaugh had a rookie QB for this game.

In 2010, the Ravens choked, so you can blame Harbaugh for it if you want, but he had some plays that Harbaugh had no control as the drops by the receivers.





I just said that the Ravens were very close to win the division.

In fact, if Antonio Brown does not do his immaculate extension, the game is over, our season is over and the Ravens win the Division and Tomlin would have been killed by the media for his playcall if Brown would have been tackled.Almost everyone would have said for the entire offseason that Tomlin is just a cheerleader if Brown would not have made his immaculate extension.This extension was out of his control, but the playcall was very risky.

You are welcome to your opinion that Harbaugh is a better coach. I happen to disagree, but it is frustrating that your only points of support seem to be situations where Harbaugh only gets credit and never blame and Tomlin only gets blame and never credit.

Remember this is a big part of how those well coached Ravens went to the SB -- https://youtu.be/HmRYZOuXHrA

A fluky blown coverage hail mary.

So Tomlin is a bad coach because he allows a play call that could have resulted in time expiring but didn't - however no credit for getting the ball in the hands of his best playmaker. Harbaugh is a great coach who is only ever held back by the crappy roster and his rookie QB. He went to the SB on the back of a catastrophically blown assignment. Last drive to save the season and this fertile coaching mind only comes up with a one WR deep route down the sideline. Watch that play - there were no other routes designed to draw the safety up - just check-downs. I mean I guess if Denver's safeties are idiots and get caught staring at TEs running shallow crossing routes with less than 45 seconds to go...oh wait.

Look at this play by comparison - http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-miss-plays/0ap3000000439944/Wk-14-Can-t-Miss-Play-Goodbye-Martavis-Bryant

AB and Bryant outside. Bell in the backfield. Bengals respond by walking one of their safeties into the box. They have 10 guys within 7 yards of the line of scrimmage. Now their single high safety has an impossible choice to make - roll help to AB's side or try and slide toward the rookie speedster. From this camera view of the play - it appears he never really made a decision and was caught in no mans land in the middle of the field. But that decision, or lack of one, was forced on the entire Bengals defense by the play design and formation. Drop too many guys into coverage and Bell is going to gouge you. Come down into the box to help on the run and either one of our WRs are going to torch single coverage.

One shot to win a playoff game - which play do you want in your team's call-sheet?

polamalubeast
05-28-2017, 03:26 PM
Yes, the Ravens had been lucky in Denver in 2012, but the Ravens still needed to win against 2 teams better than them (Patriots and 49ers) to win the super bowl.

Harbaugh was lucky in 2012 against Denver, but he was unlucky against the Pats in 2011 because of Lee Evans and his kicker.



So Tomlin is a bad coach because he allows a play call that could have resulted in time expiring but didn't - however no credit for getting the ball in the hands of his best playmaker.

Firstly, I never said that Tomlin was a bad coach.

It was the right decision to throw to Brown, but outside of the redzone was very risky, fortunately Brown made an incredible effort to score the TD.

st33lersguy
05-28-2017, 03:31 PM
You are welcome to your opinion that Harbaugh is a better coach. I happen to disagree, but it is frustrating that your only points of support seem to be situations where Harbaugh only gets credit and never blame and Tomlin only gets blame and never credit.

Remember this is a big part of how those well coached Ravens went to the SB -- https://youtu.be/HmRYZOuXHrA

A fluky blown coverage hail mary.

So Tomlin is a bad coach because he allows a play call that could have resulted in time expiring but didn't - however no credit for getting the ball in the hands of his best playmaker. Harbaugh is a great coach who is only ever held back by the crappy roster and his rookie QB. He went to the SB on the back of a catastrophically blown assignment. Last drive to save the season and this fertile coaching mind only comes up with a one WR deep route down the sideline. Watch that play - there were no other routes designed to draw the safety up - just check-downs. I mean I guess if Denver's safeties are idiots and get caught staring at TEs running shallow crossing routes with less than 45 seconds to go...oh wait.


That 2012 Ravens team really was not that special, they relied on so many lucky breaks going their way that year

They probably miss the playoffs that year had Ben not gotten injured the week before the two team's first meeting that year, Steelers win and beat out the Ravens for the final spot head-to-head.

After the Broncos safety trips over his own two feet and helps give Baltimore the win, the Ravens luck out the next week by not having to play against Gronk and Aqib Talib. Those two play, the Ravens probably lose.

Then the Super Bowl, 4th and goal in the closing minutes of the Super Bowl, game on the line, and the Ravens get away with an obvious holding penalty

Again so many lucky breaks needed to go their way

pepsyman1
05-29-2017, 01:51 AM
Tomlin's biggest blemishes are Tebow and his constant disasters against Belichick and Brady.

Other than that, there isn't much to complain about him.

one other item on my personal complaint list is how often Tomlin has had some poor losses to absolutely bottom dweller teams. I'd have no complaints if we purged this one ongoing habit we seem to have.

Steeldude
05-29-2017, 02:21 AM
Patriots are the most talented? I would place them in the middle or lower in terms of talent.

GBMelBlount
05-29-2017, 07:47 AM
Patriots are the most talented? I would place them in the middle or lower in terms of talent.

I'd have to look but didn't they score the most points last year and allow the least?

I would think the stellar talent level is implicit.

DesertSteel
05-29-2017, 10:41 AM
"The Steelers are the second most talented team. That's what it is."

- - - Updated - - -


Patriots are the most talented? I would place them in the middle or lower in terms of talent.
Funniest post I've read on here in a long time. Maybe ever.

Dwinsgames
05-29-2017, 11:02 AM
a very wise man once said ... Talent will only get you so far

Mojouw
05-29-2017, 11:03 AM
Firstly, I never said that Tomlin was a bad coach.

It was the right decision to throw to Brown, but outside of the redzone was very risky, fortunately Brown made an incredible effort to score the TD.

Fair enough, you are right you never said Tomlin was a bad coach and I shouldn't have phrased it that way.

But isn't one of the main game-day responsibilities of the HC to assess risk and determine when and how much to take? Imagine if Tomlin had gone all Schottenheimer on that drive? Or look at how Ron Rivera has had a resurgence as a HC now that he has become "Riverboat Ron" and gambles far more.

I think that this is why I rarely agree with the Tomlin detractors, most of what gets offered up as evidence of Tomlin's faults as a HC, I actually see as strengths.

Going for 2 is almost always the better percentage. Can it backfire? Sure, but so can putting in the left handed reliever to face the left handed slugger after you intentionally walked someone. But that is accepted practice. The math says that going for 2 gives your team a noticeable better chance of winning. I feel that in 5 years it will be accepted practice and no one will be criticizing coaches for it.

Deep passes on 3rd and short. Again, I love this. You have an offense that hits on a bigger % of its deep throws than almost any other team in the league - I'm going to use that as often as I can. Throwing long on typically short passing downs goes against the defense's instincts - gotta get any edge you can.

Clock management - meh. I feel he is no better or worse than most. It just jumps out to us because we obsess about all things Steelers.

Anyway, we don't need to turn this into an evaluate Tomlin thread anymore than it already is. My only point is that I think that you can "feel" a certain way about different coaches tendencies and that completely influences each of our rankings of them.

For instance, I feel that both the Harbaughs are basically grittier versions of Jon Gruden. All 3 are extremely knowledgeable about football. All three are only successful when handed the keys to a deep roster and told to get it over the championship hump. Then about 3-5 years in their nonsense gets old and they got nothing. They lose the locker room and move on. Now is any of that true? I don't really know - it is just how I perceive those three as coaches.

polamalubeast
05-29-2017, 11:12 AM
I have no problem with the deep pass in 3rd down and short...The steelers had a great success with that in the 2015 season in our peak of our offense.

To go for 2, once in the game, I can live with that, but twice is too much if the first time it does not work...It cost the game against the Cowboys and I think Tomlin has not been for 2 points again in the first half for the rest of the season.

Mojouw
05-29-2017, 11:25 AM
I have no problem with the deep pass in 3rd down and short...The steelers had a great success with that in the 2015 season in our peak of our offense.

To go for 2, once in the game, I can live with that, but twice is too much if the first time it does not work...It cost the game against the Cowboys and I think Tomlin has not been for 2 points again in the first half for the rest of the season.

Not sure if it cost the game - I kinda feel like the defenses tackling issues that whole game played a role. Maybe it did.

But - going for 2 is almost always the right call. It just doesn't seem that way because its going against years of patterning -- https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/more-nfl-teams-are-going-for-two-just-as-they-should-be/

BlackAndGold
05-30-2017, 10:16 AM
I am always against throwing deep on 3rd and 1.

It's 1 yard for crying out loud. Throw a check down, or hand it off to your all pro RB and continue driving down the field. It's that's simple.

polamalubeast
05-30-2017, 10:20 AM
I am always against throwing deep on 3rd and 1.

It's 1 yard for crying out loud. Throw a check down, or hand it off to your all pro RB and continue driving down the field. It's that's simple.

Yes, but if you want a big play, it's the best down to throw deep

Also, in the 3rd down and one, the checkdowns are less open and it's harder to run the ball, so it's important that the opponents defenses are afraid of the deep pass in his situations.

GBMelBlount
05-30-2017, 10:23 AM
The Bengals have won 6 of the last 7 games against the Ravens.

Does that mean that Marvin Lewis is a better coach than John Harbaugh???

Good point.

The Steelers, Bengals & Ravens matchups the last few years have been like rock, paper, scissors.