Hybrid Theory

[BurghBoy412]

This article explains beautifully why taking a Safety in the first round makes sense. It also explains why the loss of Timmons isn't as big of a deal as one may think. Out with the old and in with the new. Evolution is necessary if the Steelers want to remain on top in a pass happy league.
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/04/film-room-hybrid-safety-transform-steelers-defense/

[Born2Steel]

Maybe a guy like Obi or Peppers if looking for this at 30. Maybe Baker, who can play FS or slot CB. Trick is getting to the QB BEFORE the seam receiver has time to make the double move.

[BurghBoy412]

Maybe a guy like Obi or Peppers if looking for this at 30. Maybe Baker, who can play FS or slot CB. Trick is getting to the QB BEFORE the seam receiver has time to make the double move.Or cover long enough that pressure can get to the QB.

[Mojouw]

I hate to even crack this door back open, but this article is the best and easiest to digest answer to "why don' they play more man?"

Because Golden and Gay can't do it. Like at all.

[steelerdude15]

I hate to even crack this door back open, but this article is the best and easiest to digest answer to "why don' they play more man?"

Because Golden and Gay can't do it. Like at all.

Not only that, but Ross is too inconsistent in man coverage from what I've seen. We need more talent to run man coverage.

[polamalubeast]

I can't believe the steelers needed to be humiliated against the Pats in the playoffs for that the steelers realize they need to be better in man to man coverage.

Pathetic and embarrassing.

[BurghBoy412]

Not only that, but Ross is too inconsistent in man coverage from what I've seen. We need more talent to run man coverage.Cock signed his tender today. Surprising nobody else wanted him. :wink02::mob:

[Born2Steel]

Say what you will, Cockrell was our BEST cover corner last season.

[BurghBoy412]

Say what you will, Cockrell was our BEST cover corner last season.
That's not a good thing if you ask me. I don't think he would touch the field in an elite secondary. Like Denver for instance.

[pczach]

Say what you will, Cockrell was our BEST cover corner last season.


He's been our best cornerback from the very first second he stepped foot on the field.

Burns is going to be that guy going forward, but Ross Cockrell has really helped this team. There are so many fans that don't appreciate how well he has played as a free agent pickup. They got him for next to nothing as a castoff from Buffalo, and he has been a very solid player.

[BurghBoy412]

He's been our best cornerback from the very first second he stepped foot on the field.

Burns is going to be that guy going forward, but Ross Cockrell has really helped this team. There are so many fans that don't appreciate how well he has played as a free agent pickup. They got him for next to nothing as a castoff from Buffalo, and he has been a very solid player.I will concede that Cockrell has improved every year. Who knows maybe he makes a pro bowl next season. The man does not lack effort. There is a ton to be said about that.

[Born2Steel]

Was thinking more on the 'hybrid' player. We tend to look at it more as a safety/ILB player. One thing about Peppers, he may not be big enough to play ILB much, but he definitely is a safety/CB prospect. Plus he can switch sides of the line and play from the RB position as well. To my thought, that meets a position of need on both sides of the ball.

Curious about Peppers' lack of production. Who was the Clemson CB last draft that only had 1 career INT and was still nearly everyone's favorite CB? Maybe Peppers made QBs throw elsewhere like that guy did. Guess that is his downside. All that athletic talent but next to zero production.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Was thinking more on the 'hybrid' player. We tend to look at it more as a safety/ILB player. One thing about Peppers, he may not be big enough to play ILB much, but he definitely is a safety/CB prospect. Plus he can switch sides of the line and play from the RB position as well. To my thought, that meets a position of need on both sides of the ball.

Curious about Peppers' lack of production. Who was the Clemson CB last draft that only had 1 career INT and was still nearly everyone's favorite CB? Maybe Peppers made QBs throw elsewhere like that guy did. Guess that is his downside. All that athletic talent but next to zero production.

Mackensie Alexander. He hasnt been able to play because he has a stacked group of cornerbacks in front of him so the jury is still out

[BurghBoy412]

Was thinking more on the 'hybrid' player. We tend to look at it more as a safety/ILB player. One thing about Peppers, he may not be big enough to play ILB much, but he definitely is a safety/CB prospect. Plus he can switch sides of the line and play from the RB position as well. To my thought, that meets a position of need on both sides of the ball.

Curious about Peppers' lack of production. Who was the Clemson CB last draft that only had 1 career INT and was still nearly everyone's favorite CB? Maybe Peppers made QBs throw elsewhere like that guy did. Guess that is his downside. All that athletic talent but next to zero production.
I just don't think its fair to judge him until hes placed in a system and can focus on one side of the ball. He was asked to do everything at Michigan except QB basically. I think he confuses the masses because there isn't really on guy you can compare him with. I like that actually. I believe he has the ability to change the game in a big way. Dare I say define a new position. Something that the rest of the league tries to imitate. Dare I say he is like a Charles Woodson/ Bo Jackson. Lol I really don't know anything. I'm just really excited to see this guys career unfold! No matter where he ends up.

[teegre]

Back in the days of Steelers Fever, we were all talking about a LB/SS.

IMO, they drafted Sean Spence to be that guy... but, then his exploded knee changed all of that. So, they tried Troy Polamalu at that position (two other players were lined up at safety) with mixed results. They've played Robert Golden there with fairly awful results.

The time has come for Jabrill Peppers.

[BurghBoy412]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H10s6uTAgC8
Jabrill Freaking Peppers!

[Shoes]

SOURCES TELL US

"These comparisons to Charles Woodson are nuts. Both are really good return men, but Woody is one of the greatest playmakers of all-time. Peppers has one interception and I don't think he's ever forced a fumble. Michigan might move him around too much. He will really improve when he can lock in and learn a position." -- AFC Director of Scouting

I still think the Steelers go pass rush in R1, but I'd be fine with JP in R1 also.

[Dwinsgames]

SOURCES TELL US

"These comparisons to Charles Woodson are nuts. Both are really good return men, but Woody is one of the greatest playmakers of all-time. Peppers has one interception and I don't think he's ever forced a fumble. Michigan might move him around too much. He will really improve when he can lock in and learn a position." -- AFC Director of Scouting


bingo ...

Peppers couldn't carry Charles Woodson's jock , that does not mean he won't be able to someday but as of right now NOPE

[teegre]

SOURCES TELL US

"These comparisons to Charles Woodson are nuts. Both are really good return men, but Woody is one of the greatest playmakers of all-time. Peppers has one interception and I don't think he's ever forced a fumble. Michigan might move him around too much. He will really improve when he can lock in and learn a position." -- AFC Director of Scouting

I still think the Steelers go pass rush in R1, but I'd be fine with JP in R1 also.

This has been my contention for a while.

- - - Updated - - -


bingo ...

Peppers couldn't carry Charles Woodson's jock , that does not mean he won't be able to someday but as of right now NOPE

I agree: bad comparison.

I'd say he's the Kordell Stewart of defense.

[Dwinsgames]

I'd say he's the Kordell Stewart of defense.

great analogy

[BurghBoy412]

It's a really unfair comparison. Woodson played exclusively in the secondary at Michigan. Peppers in the front 7 mostly. Really the only comparison you can make is returning kicks/punts.

[Six Rings]

This article explains beautifully why taking a Safety in the first round makes sense. It also explains why the loss of Timmons isn't as big of a deal as one may think. Out with the old and in with the new. Evolution is necessary if the Steelers want to remain on top in a pass happy league.
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/04/film-room-hybrid-safety-transform-steelers-defense/


Timmons was a very good player for us, perhaps the best on the defense 3 years ago, but the game has changed and he's older.

Timmons isn't as fast as he used to be, nor is he ideal in coverage anymore.

I think the NFL and the Steelers are moving to more of a 4-2-5 type of defense, which requires a smaller ILB who can run, tackle well cover OR a bigger Safety type who can do the same.

[BurghBoy412]

Timmons was a very good player for us, perhaps the best on the defense 3 years ago, but the game has changed and he's older.

Timmons isn't as fast as he used to be, nor is he ideal in coverage anymore.

I think the NFL and the Steelers are moving to more of a 4-2-5 type of defense, which requires a smaller ILB who can run, tackle well cover OR a bigger Safety type who can do the same.
Agreed and agreed

[pczach]

I love the idea of having another safety on the field that can cover. If they were to get a guy like Buddha Baker that can cover the slot receiver effectively, it could help transform the defense.

Think about it. They are then able to play with three safeties on the field, while adding a quality cover man. That also puts another player on the field that is a physical force and a sure tackler. This helps you against the run and the pass. When you play with that type of personnel on the field, it is also a very good matchup against teams like the Pats that throw a lot of short possession passes. Sure tackling and tight coverage is exactly what is needed to control a passing attack like they use, while also having a bigger body and sure tackler to hold up against the run.

Hybrid players at the safety/CB/LB position are the wildcards of the new NFL. Finding one that is fast enough and athletic enough to cover, tough enough to take on blockers, strong enough to play like a LB against the run, and talented enough to pull it all off is the problem. Find one and it changes the way you play defense and adds versatility and playmaking.

[Mojouw]

I love the idea of having another safety on the field that can cover. If they were to get a guy like Buddha Baker that can cover the slot receiver effectively, it could help transform the defense.

Think about it. They are then able to play with three safeties on the field, while adding a quality cover man. That also puts another player on the field that is a physical force and a sure tackler. This helps you against the run and the pass. When you play with that type of personnel on the field, it is also a very good matchup against teams like the Pats that throw a lot of short possession passes. Sure tackling and tight coverage is exactly what is needed to control a passing attack like they use, while also having a bigger body and sure tackler to hold up against the run.

Hybrid players at the safety/CB/LB position are the wildcards of the new NFL. Finding one that is fast enough and athletic enough to cover, tough enough to take on blockers, strong enough to play like a LB against the run, and talented enough to pull it all off is the problem. Find one and it changes the way you play defense and adds versatility and playmaking.

So basically you're saying the entire league is looking for Polamalu light?


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[pczach]

So basically you're saying the entire league is looking for Polamalu light?


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I think everyone would love to find a HOF player like that, but I think it's much more simple than that.

I think every team in the league would love to find a player that can hold up in coverage. In more practical terms, he'd be a player that plays the pass well, can play man and zone, and not be a guy that can be picked on as a mismatch against tight ends. They would also want this player to have a high football IQ, and the ability to absorb the responsibilities of multiple positions and the instincts to maximize their talents on the field.

I don't think they have to be all-world as a player. Asking for an incarnation of Troy would be wonderful but not realistic. Being an above average player against the run, a solid cover man, and with pure instincts and athleticism can cause turnovers with anticipation and ball skills in both rush defense and pass defense. They don't have to dominate, but they can dictate the terms to the offense with their versatility and playmaking abilities.

Think about it. If a safety is on the field instead of a cornerback, and just his tackling ability gets the defense off the field one or two times a game by making a stop short of the sticks against the run...that's a win. If that same safety is on the field, and the offense tries to take advantage of him in coverage.....and he holds up in coverage....it's a win. In other words, a quarterback may audible to a pass on second down to try to take advantage of what he perceives as a personnel advantage because a safety is on the field instead of a pure corner in nickel. If the safety is able to take his man out of the play with coverage and the play is unsuccessful, he has now put the down and distance in the defense's favor just by his presence on the field and his cover skills.

It's the kind of stuff that doesn't necessarily show up in the stats, but could have a huge impact on the game. Add in the occasional interception, strip tackle to force a fumble, or a crushing hit on a quarterback while blitzing, and the overall effect a player like that can have is huge IMO.

[Mojouw]

I think everyone would love to find a HOF player like that, but I think it's much more simple than that.

I think every team in the league would love to find a player that can hold up in coverage. In more practical terms, he'd be a player that plays the pass well, can play man and zone, and not be a guy that can be picked on as a mismatch against tight ends. They would also want this player to have a high football IQ, and the ability to absorb the responsibilities of multiple positions and the instincts to maximize their talents on the field.

I don't think they have to be all-world as a player. Asking for an incarnation of Troy would be wonderful but not realistic. Being an above average player against the run, a solid cover man, and with pure instincts and athleticism can cause turnovers with anticipation and ball skills in both rush defense and pass defense. They don't have to dominate, but they can dictate the terms to the offense with their versatility and playmaking abilities.

Think about it. If a safety is on the field instead of a cornerback, and just his tackling ability gets the defense off the field one or two times a game by making a stop short of the sticks against the run...that's a win. If that same safety is on the field, and the offense tries to take advantage of him in coverage.....and he holds up in coverage....it's a win. In other words, a quarterback may audible to a pass on second down to try to take advantage of what he perceives as a personnel advantage because a safety is on the field instead of a pure corner in nickel. If the safety is able to take his man out of the play with coverage and the play is unsuccessful, he has now put the down and distance in the defense's favor just by his presence on the field and his cover skills.

It's the kind of stuff that doesn't necessarily show up in the stats, but could have a huge impact on the game. Add in the occasional interception, strip tackle to force a fumble, or a crushing hit on a quarterback while blitzing, and the overall effect a player like that can have is huge IMO.

Oh I agree totally. The hybrid player thing kinda gets my goat though. Everyone wants to tell me how innovate Arians is with Buchannon - well, gee, I wonder where he got the idea? Or just flexible players down the middle in general. The Steelers had a stark choice between Shazier and Mosley in 2014. Now I got to sit around and listen to how all these other teams are innovating with hybrid players. I mean Carnell Lake was a thing...

Anyways, rant over.

[Dwinsgames]

Oh I agree totally. The hybrid player thing kinda gets my goat though. Everyone wants to tell me how innovate Arians is with Buchannon - well, gee, I wonder where he got the idea? Or just flexible players down the middle in general. The Steelers had a stark choice between Shazier and Mosley in 2014. Now I got to sit around and listen to how all these other teams are innovating with hybrid players. I mean Carnell Lake was a thing...

Anyways, rant over.

Lake was something to behold , I mean many people forget ( or perhaps never realized ) Lake was a Linebacker for Rick Neuheisel at UCLA the Steelers drafted him to play S and he made the transition in short order to be a VERY good one starting 14 or 15 games as a rookie , a few years later Woodson goes down with a knee injury and Lake moves to corner and plays at an extremely high level .... this sort of stuff just doesn't happen but it did ...

[Mojouw]

Lake was something to behold , I mean many people forget ( or perhaps never realized ) Lake was a Linebacker for Rick Neuheisel at UCLA the Steelers drafted him to play S and he made the transition in short order to be a VERY good one starting 14 or 15 games as a rookie , a few years later Woodson goes down with a knee injury and Lake moves to corner and plays at an extremely high level .... this sort of stuff just doesn't happen but it did ...

Woodson got all the hype and rightly so. But Lake made that secondary work.

FWIW this thread has me talked into Peppers. Sure his turnover stats kinda suck but watch his tape-he is always around the ball. More than decent chance that he is a far better pro than college player.


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[LLT]

Was thinking more on the 'hybrid' player. We tend to look at it more as a safety/ILB player. One thing about Peppers, he may not be big enough to play ILB much, but he definitely is a safety/CB prospect. Plus he can switch sides of the line and play from the RB position as well. To my thought, that meets a position of need on both sides of the ball.

Curious about Peppers' lack of production. Who was the Clemson CB last draft that only had 1 career INT and was still nearly everyone's favorite CB? Maybe Peppers made QBs throw elsewhere like that guy did. Guess that is his downside. All that athletic talent but next to zero production.

Josh Jones doesn't have the size of a traditional ILB...but he can play safety and cornerback and is one hell of a hitter.

[steelerdude15]

He's been our best cornerback from the very first second he stepped foot on the field.

Burns is going to be that guy going forward, but Ross Cockrell has really helped this team. There are so many fans that don't appreciate how well he has played as a free agent pickup. They got him for next to nothing as a castoff from Buffalo, and he has been a very solid player.

My only issue with Ross is that he is inconsistent in coverage. One play he's shadowing a receiver without any issues and the next play, a receiver could use a simple juke move and cause enough separation from Ross to have the ball thrown his way.