Pittsburgh Steelers: 10-Year Report Card for Mike Tomlin

[polamalubeast]

Incredibly, Mike Tomlin is preparing for the start of his second decade as head coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers. How has he fared in his first 10 seasons?

His regular-season record in 10 seasons with the Pittsburgh Steelers is an impressive 103-57. However, there is also a so-so 8-6 record in the postseason. Within his first four years with the franchise, he led the Black and Gold to a Super Bowl victory and then got them back to the Big Game two years later. The club has made seven playoff appearances and yet to suffer through a losing campaign under his command.



read more


http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/pittsburgh-steelers-10-year-report-card-for-mike-tomlin-033017

[tube517]

:poker: :hippo: :cool: :bond:

[Craic]

I don't know, after his first five years I would've given him an A- as the article did. However, after the second five years, I'd have to downgrade it to a B+. I wouldn't go any further than that as the two year slump was pretty much the result of the organizational gamble to keep the SB team together in the late 00s. Moreover, we were competitive every year, playing meaningful games in December, and that's impressive during a rebuild. As much as I'd like to see him win again the Pats*, the fact of the matter is, the Pats* have had Pittsburgh's number since the early days of Cowher's tenure.

On a different note, I'm not sure I completely like his style... he seems more a team manager and allows the ACs to have a stronger hand in coaching the offense and defense. Then again, having never coached an NFL team, perhaps that is necessary in today's NFL.

With all that being said, however, I fully expect him to grade out with an A in five years again. S

[st33lersguy]

"CHEARLEEDUR" :hippo:

[Iron Steeler]

C-

Refusal to make in game adjustments.
Not sure if he brings any value with X's ans O's and calling plays.
One one game plan no flexibility attitude really kill our team.
Horrible at challenging not challenging .
Time management ehhh...
PLAYING DOWN TO BAD TEAMS
Great at finding talent and keeping a steady ship during adversity.

Never do i say mannn Mike Tomlin really out smarted that team .

Im not a big fan of Tomlin, I would say it has been festering for 4 years now.

Now I will duck for cover for expressing me opinion . lol

[lipps83]

I would probably grade him out as average, but damn did you make a good point.

Looking back, I don't think there has ever been a point that he has really outsmarted another coach that I can recall. There sure have been a lot of moments where he has been outsmarted. I remember those.

That's kind of sad.

[fansince'76]

At the moment, I'd give him a C+. That AFCCG was an embarrassment. NO WAY is the Patriots' roster that much better, so that kinda points to coaching.

[Psycho Ward 86]

anyone who puts Tomlin in the A range is beyond delusional. im not sure the statistic still holds, but i believe going as recent as a season or 2 ago, Tomlin had the worst record against teams with a 0.200 record or lower which was lowest among all active coaches. Thats just fucking putrid. That shit matters, even when you beat some really really good teams. Take those types of garbage losses out and we end up with home field advantage a number of times over the Patriots, who are actually quite vulnerable in the playoffs away from home.

The players will run through a brick wall for him. Infectious energy, things of that ilk, thats fantastic. Doesnt seem to be the best X's and O's guy considering our defenses penchant for not being that great when utilizing concepts he is familiar with from his time as a DB coach and Defensive Coordinator. Took too long and scared to let Lebeau go. Double goes with Arians. Going to give him credit for his 2 superbowl appearances, even in the ones we lost because theres really no shame in getting outdueled by the best QB in the league and the 2nd ranked defense. Tomlin still generally does a nice job of trusting his veteran staff members and not being over intrusive. Challenges and time management definitely need work. Cant be losing comical games like against Tebow. No real reason to believe that he'll be more successful than most average coaches without a franchise QB

Ill give him a B-. He could obviously be a better coach, but we could do a whole hell of a lot better.

- - - Updated - - -


At the moment, I'd give him a C+. That AFCCG was an embarrassment. NO WAY is the Patriots' roster that much better, so that kinda points to coaching.

to be fair, Cobi Hamilton dropped 2 touchdown's and Coates dropped another. That makes it an even ball game without Bell

[fansince'76]

to be fair, Cobi Hamilton dropped 2 touchdown's and Coates dropped another. That makes it an even ball game without Bell

Good point. I'm still really pissed off because I hate that team so damn much.

[GBMelBlount]

I will give Tomlin a B.

Can anyone list 10 active coaches that are better? Perhaps, but even at 10, that is a B in my book.

I also believe Ben is the biggest factor in whether this team wins or loses including the games against sub .200 teams.

We will likely know how good Tomlin is when Ben retires.

[st33lersguy]

B. He has his faults, all of which have already been mentioned, but he never had a losing season even during the roster overhaul from the early part of the decade and he has taken the team farther than the previous year the past 3 years with a young team. More often than not, his teams respond to adversity, even young and inexperienced teams he has coached, that has to count for something

[teegre]

anyone who puts Tomlin in the A range is beyond delusional.

Okay.

[st33lersguy]

At the moment, I'd give him a C+. That AFCCG was an embarrassment. NO WAY is the Patriots' roster that much better, so that kinda points to coaching.

Most coaches wouldn't have even been in the playoffs had they fallen to 4-5 after a devastating loss, especially if they had to dig their way out of a 4-5 hole without their defensive captain and no. 2 WR let alone not lose again until the AFC Championship game

[Edman]

He gets no higher than a B.

The performance in the AFCC was a microcosm. Good coach, but not a good enough coach.

[Psycho Ward 86]

We will likely know how good Tomlin is when Ben retires.

We already have a pretty good sample size. Tomlin is an even 8-8 when Ben doesnt play. That seems right on track with what most people expect out of him. without a franchise QB, thats not bad. Its nothing to gush about either

[86WARD]

C+ maybe B- at best? He has his faults, everyone knows his faults, yet he doesn't try to improve on them or just ignores them. We see the same damn mistakes year after year. Special Teams has been putrid. Danny Smith continues to have issues with his units year after year, yet he's still around? When you have a poor support staff, you're grade lessens. Still issues with beating the "bad teams", these are things that need to be addressed. But he hasn't yet.

I think Ben would make a lot of coaches look good and it's pretty much proven when Jones is in there. Now it would be interesting to see a guy like Cutler or Fitzpatrick or even a Matt Cassel type in there to see how Tomlin would do. Would also like to see a Mariota type in there to see how Tomlin coaches him up. When you have Ben...it's a HUGE luxury and makes the job a helluva a lot easier.

There may only be a handful of coaches out there that are better than him, but that doesn't mean they are great coaches either.

[GBMelBlount]

We already have a pretty good sample size. Tomlin is an even 8-8 when Ben doesnt play. That seems right on track with what most people expect out of him. without a franchise QB, thats not bad. Its nothing to gush about either

Good point.

if 8-8 is average, with backup QB's (which is the case here), I would imagine one could consider it "good".

[polamalubeast]

We already have a pretty good sample size. Tomlin is an even 8-8 when Ben doesnt play. That seems right on track with what most people expect out of him. without a franchise QB, thats not bad. Its nothing to gush about either



8-8 is not bad if we consider that his best QB in the games that Ben missed was a very old Charlie Batch.

[polamalubeast]

But the argument that Tomlin has not a losing season is an accomplishment is horrible....The top 5 QBs in the last 15 years are Ben, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers.

The top 5 QBs in the last 15 years are Ben, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers.

Rodgers had only one losing season and it was his first season.

Peyton Manning had only one season with less than 12 wins between 2003 to 2014.

No need to talk about Brady ...

For Drew Brees, it's the only one to have several losing season, but that's because their defense is so bad

So not having a losing season with a future HOF QB is not an accomplishment

[BurghBoy412]

But the argument that Tomlin has not a losing season is an accomplishment is horrible....The top 5 QBs in the last 15 years are Ben, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers.

The top 5 QBs in the last 15 years are Ben, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers.

Rodgers had only one losing season and it was his first season.

Peyton Manning had only one season with less than 12 wins between 2003 to 2014.

No need to talk about Brady ...

For Drew Brees, it's the only one to have several losing season, but that's because their defense is so bad

So not having a losing season with a future HOF QB is not an accomplishment
I don't understand your take. We're supposed to see how Tomlin does without a HOF QB? How many coaches succeed in the modern day NFL without a HOF QB yearly? The way the league works now is win or find a new job. The fact that Tomlin has been able to stay on the job for 10 years is a big feat in itself. If the HOOD didn't have Tommy and NE was placing 3rd in the division every year do you think he's still there? You don't win in the NFL (consistently) without elite QB's.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I don't understand your take. We're supposed to see how Tomlin does without a HOF QB? How many coaches succeed in the modern day NFL without a HOF QB yearly? The way the league works now is win or find a new job. The fact that Tomlin has been able to stay on the job for 10 years in a big feat in itself. If the HOOD didn't have Tommy and NE was placing 3rd in the division every year do you think he's still there? You don't win in the NFL (consistently) without elite QB's.

Thats fair, although Andy Reid is pretty good at this. Spent pretty much his entire head coaching career with the biggest choke of all time, Donovan McNabb at the helm, and a game manager QB in Alex Smith.

The Hood has a pretty good record without Brady. He went 11-5 without him for an entire season. He went 3-1 this past season without him. Hell, Belichick damn near had a .500 record with the hapless Browns which is the one team where that could be called impressive. Fuck Belichick, but thats impressive

Again, for as much as us steeler fans complain about Tomlin, I think at the end of the day we realize we could be doing a lot worse

[Born2Steel]

A++! Deal with it.

[st33lersguy]

8-8 is not bad if we consider that his best QB in the games that Ben missed was a very old Charlie Batch.

2-1 with Michael Vick starting, you know the edition of Michael Vick who couldn't hit a mansion if he was standing 1foot in front of it

[Mojouw]

Ask Jay Cutler, Philip Rivers, Eli Manning, Carson Palmer if they want to switch coaching/mangement situations with Roethlisberger. All of those guys have comparable physical talent, but have .500 or worse career records largely due to things outside their control mucking up the team/situation around them. Except that Cutler is a pouty little whiner...but still dude can throw a football!

Bottom line - Mike Tomlin wins far more football games than he losses. Here is the all-time table sorted by winning percentage: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/#coaches::8

I mean I guess there are lies, damn lies, and statistics, but those #'s are kinda hard to argue with.

[steelreserve]

He gets no higher than a B.

The performance in the AFCC was a microcosm. Good coach, but not a good enough coach.

I think that's the perfect way of putting it. That and the comment about being noticeably outcoached sometimes, but rarely if ever outcoaching others.



8-8 is not bad if we consider that his best QB in the games that Ben missed was a very old Charlie Batch.

And after 10 years, whose fault is that? It would be the same thing as continuing to use the "Cowher's players" argument today. If there's a problem on the roster and we do nothing about it, the coach at least shares in the blame. If he has no say whatsoever in personnel decisions, that's also a problem. So that 8-8 is partly on the sub-par backup QBs, and partly on the coach for having sub-par backup QBs.

Hate to bring up the Douche Crew again, but what's Belichick's record with backups? I think he's a lot better than .500 even when the Gayest Of All Time isn't starting.

[polamalubeast]

Ask Jay Cutler, Philip Rivers, Eli Manning, Carson Palmer if they want to switch coaching/mangement situations with Roethlisberger. All of those guys have comparable physical talent, but have .500 or worse career records largely due to things outside their control mucking up the team/situation around them. Except that Cutler is a pouty little whiner...but still dude can throw a football!

Bottom line - Mike Tomlin wins far more football games than he losses. Here is the all-time table sorted by winning percentage: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/#coaches::8

I mean I guess there are lies, damn lies, and statistics, but those #'s are kinda hard to argue with.

Eli Manning's Head Coach in his first 12 years is a possible future HOF.....

[polamalubeast]

I think that's the perfect way of putting it. That and the comment about being noticeably outcoached sometimes, but rarely if ever outcoaching others.




And after 10 years, whose fault is that? It would be the same thing as continuing to use the "Cowher's players" argument today. If there's a problem on the roster and we do nothing about it, the coach at least shares in the blame. If he has no say whatsoever in personnel decisions, that's also a problem. So that 8-8 is partly on the sub-par backup QBs, and partly on the coach for having sub-par backup QBs.

Hate to bring up the Douche Crew again, but what's Belichick's record with backups? I think he's a lot better than .500 even when the Gayest Of All Time isn't starting.

Good point, but it's just that it's very possible that the next QB after Ben will not be as bad as it is currently, since the Steelers have a good chance of drafted at least 1 QB in the first 2 round in the coming years.

[Mojouw]

Eli Manning's Head Coach in his first 12 years is a possible future HOF.....

But as this thread is pointing out, a winning football team is far more than just the HC. How many coordinators did Coughlin rip throw during that period on both sides of the ball? That's on Coughlin also. He scapegoated several guys (yes. I see you Arians and Lebeau) to save his job. I mean look at this yearly break-down: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CougTo0.htm

That's only 4 years of Eli's career over 9 wins. Where Tomlin only has 3 seasons with less than double-digit wins. Seriously, someone needs to explain to me how Tom Coughlin is a good coach again. That dude has been over-rated his entire career and is totally living on an undeserved repuation. Spagnola won those SB's. Tom Coughlin is just an older version of Jeff Fisher.

[Psycho Ward 86]

But as this thread is pointing out, a winning football team is far more than just the HC. How many coordinators did Coughlin rip throw during that period on both sides of the ball? That's on Coughlin also. He scapegoated several guys (yes. I see you Arians and Lebeau) to save his job. I mean look at this yearly break-down: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CougTo0.htm

That's only 4 years of Eli's career over 9 wins. Where Tomlin only has 3 seasons with less than double-digit wins. Seriously, someone needs to explain to me how Tom Coughlin is a good coach again. That dude has been over-rated his entire career and is totally living on an undeserved repuation. Spagnola won those SB's. Tom Coughlin is just an older version of Jeff Fisher.

i would take Tomlin over Coughlin, but i think comparing him to Jeff Fisher is way unfair. Look what Coughlin did for the Jaguars who were an expansion franchise at the time. He did a good job there

[polamalubeast]

But as this thread is pointing out, a winning football team is far more than just the HC. How many coordinators did Coughlin rip throw during that period on both sides of the ball? That's on Coughlin also. He scapegoated several guys (yes. I see you Arians and Lebeau) to save his job. I mean look at this yearly break-down: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CougTo0.htm

That's only 4 years of Eli's career over 9 wins. Where Tomlin only has 3 seasons with less than double-digit wins. Seriously, someone needs to explain to me how Tom Coughlin is a good coach again. That dude has been over-rated his entire career and is totally living on an undeserved repuation. Spagnola won those SB's. Tom Coughlin is just an older version of Jeff Fisher.

Between 2007 and 2013, Eli Manning had the same OC.

What Spagnolo did after leaving the giants in 2008?Ugly with the rams and after the saints had an atrocious defense in 2012 with him as DC.The giants won a super bowl without him in 2011 and it was with a very average team.

Also, unlike Tomlin, Coughlin proved that he could beat Bill Belichick especially in the big games(Super Bowl).

Coughlin had a 5-2 record against the best coach of all time and his two defeats were by 3 points and by 1 point(The loss by 1 point was with a awful team in 2015!).

[Mojouw]

i would take Tomlin over Coughlin, but i think comparing him to Jeff Fisher is way unfair. Look what Coughlin did for the Jaguars who were an expansion franchise at the time. He did a good job there

Fisher had some good years with the Titans - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/FishJe0.htm

Those Jags teams were loaded for bear. Both Coughlin and Fisher will likely end up in Canton one day because they were around for so long and accumulated enough wins to place high on the all-time list.

But if you want to complain about being "out-coached" and lack of innovation, depending on your coordinators, etc. Dig into those two. Fisher still thinks 3 hands off in a row is an innovative offense. He, at some level, signed off on giving Tavon Austin (a gadget guy) all of the money, was involved in drafting Jared Goff, assembled and wasted a loaded defense in St. Louis, etc. Coughlin, well, I mean Tomlin gets NO END of crap for having 3 less than 10 win seasons with a HOF QB. What do we think of Coughlin who only had 4 10+ win seasons with Eli?

[polamalubeast]

Fisher had some good years with the Titans - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/FishJe0.htm

Those Jags teams were loaded for bear. Both Coughlin and Fisher will likely end up in Canton one day because they were around for so long and accumulated enough wins to place high on the all-time list.

But if you want to complain about being "out-coached" and lack of innovation, depending on your coordinators, etc. Dig into those two. Fisher still thinks 3 hands off in a row is an innovative offense. He, at some level, signed off on giving Tavon Austin (a gadget guy) all of the money, was involved in drafting Jared Goff, assembled and wasted a loaded defense in St. Louis, etc. Coughlin, well, I mean Tomlin gets NO END of crap for having 3 less than 10 win seasons with a HOF QB. What do we think of Coughlin who only had 4 10+ win seasons with Eli?

No chance for Jeff Fisher to go to the HOF.Coughlin was successful with the Jaguars and the Giants.Jeff Fisher was a disaster with the rams

[Mojouw]

Between 2007 and 2013, Eli Manning had the same OC.

What Spagnolo did after leaving the giants in 2008?Ugly with the rams and after the saints had an atrocious defense in 2012 with him as DC.The giants won a super bowl without him in 2011 and it was with a very average team.

Also, unlike Tomlin, Coughlin proved that he could beat Bill Belichick especially in the big games(Super Bowl).

Coughlin had a 5-2 record against the best coach of all time and his two defeats were by 3 points and by 1 point(The loss by 1 point was with a awful team in 2015!).

Okay. Okay. You got me. Coughlin is amaaaaazing. Great gameplans to beat the hoody. Helmet catches and not covering Burress in the end-zone. What a mastermind.

If Coughlin is a good to great coach - then Tomlin is a savant. If Tom Coughlin churned out a series of 9 win or less seasons at the helm of the Steelers during Ben's entire career, you all would be calling for his house to be burnt down and him ridden out of town on a rail. But on another team's sideline all that matters is that he beats the Patriots? Awesome! He's 5-2 against the Pats and 97-89 versus the rest of the league.

[steelreserve]

Good point, but it's just that it's very possible that the next QB after Ben will not be as bad as it is currently, since the Steelers have a good chance of drafted at least 1 QB in the first 2 round in the coming years.

Well, let's hope so. Half of it is we weren't really trying to look for great QBs as much as hold our ground, but now that there's a legitimate need for it, there's no excuse.

[polamalubeast]

Okay. Okay. You got me. Coughlin is amaaaaazing. Great gameplans to beat the hoody. Helmet catches and not covering Burress in the end-zone. What a mastermind.

If Coughlin is a good to great coach - then Tomlin is a savant. If Tom Coughlin churned out a series of 9 win or less seasons at the helm of the Steelers during Ben's entire career, you all would be calling for his house to be burnt down and him ridden out of town on a rail. But on another team's sideline all that matters is that he beats the Patriots? Awesome! He's 5-2 against the Pats and 97-89 versus the rest of the league.

Coughlin is far from perfect, but give him a good roster and his teams can beat anyone.At least his teams would be able to compete against almost all the teams with a good roster, even if his roster is not perfect.

The lack of talent between 2013 to 2015 of the giants were the biggest problem of the giants.

[Mojouw]

Coughlin is far from perfect, but give him a good roster and his teams can beat anyone.At least his teams would be able to compete against almost all the teams with a good roster, even if his roster is not perfect.

The lack of talent between 2013 to 2015 of the giants were the biggest problem of the giants.

All I'm trying to say is that if you can lay out a series of arguments that come down on the side of Coughlin being a good or better coach (so A-B range in letter grades) then how can Tomlin be anything less than a B+?

Tomlin squeezed 2 playoff games out of defense that started Antwon Blake. It's like everyone around here sees the worst in the Steelers staff and management and only the good in other franchises.

Take emotions, good and bad, out of the equation and I will take the combination of Tomlin and Colbert up against anyone in the league. The only franchise that seems to have their # is the Pats.

Put it this way, in '70's the Steelers beat the Cowboys and the Raiders on the biggest stages in some crucial situations. Does that mean those two teams were also not having a dominant run?

[steelreserve]

Tomlin squeezed 2 playoff games out of defense that started Antwon Blake.

And whose fault was it that the defense started Antwon Blake? He might've squeezed three games out of a defense that started someone else. I mean, that's one that really should have you questioning his decision-making.

[polamalubeast]

All I'm trying to say is that if you can lay out a series of arguments that come down on the side of Coughlin being a good or better coach (so A-B range in letter grades) then how can Tomlin be anything less than a B+?

Tomlin squeezed 2 playoff games out of defense that started Antwon Blake. It's like everyone around here sees the worst in the Steelers staff and management and only the good in other franchises.

Take emotions, good and bad, out of the equation and I will take the combination of Tomlin and Colbert up against anyone in the league. The only franchise that seems to have their # is the Pats.

Put it this way, in '70's the Steelers beat the Cowboys and the Raiders on the biggest stages in some crucial situations. Does that mean those two teams were also not having a dominant run?


Tomlin is a good coach, but he must be better if the steelers want to at least compete when they play against the Pats.

This is important, since the steelers will probably have to beat the Pats if they want to win another super bowl with Ben.

Our games against the Pats under Tomlin are often an embarrassment and it is very painful.

[Born2Steel]

Tomlin vs the Pats. 8 losses, 3 by less than 12pts(2 scores). So 5 'embarassments'? But 3 wins, by 14, 23, and 8. By my count, that's 3 wins, 3 losses within reach of being wins, and 5 losses by more than 2 scores. I do not feel this defines his legacy as the coach of the Steelers.

[BurghBoy412]

Tomlin vs the Pats. 8 losses, 3 by less than 12pts(2 scores). So 5 'embarassments'? But 3 wins, by 14, 23, and 8. By my count, that's 3 wins, 3 losses within reach of being wins, and 5 losses by more than 2 scores. I do not feel this defines his legacy as the coach of the Steelers.
He's got a lot of years left. Let's see how things progress as he ages. Older = Wiser ?

[teegre]

I've said it numerous times...

Tomlin = Obama

If you liked Obama, you liked him (despite anything he did wrong). If you hated Obama, you hated him (no matter what he did right).

/thread

[polamalubeast]

Tomlin vs the Pats. 8 losses, 3 by less than 12pts(2 scores). So 5 'embarassments'? But 3 wins, by 14, 23, and 8. By my count, that's 3 wins, 3 losses within reach of being wins, and 5 losses by more than 2 scores. I do not feel this defines his legacy as the coach of the Steelers.


Tomlin has only one win against the Patriots with Brady and it was in 2011.Tomlin is 1-6 against the Patriots with Brady and Brady has 22 TD(or 25),0 INT,QB rating of 125 in 7 games vs Tomlin.

In his 6 losses against the Patriots, the steelers were behind the Patriots by at least 18 points in 5 of his games, the other the steelers were behind by 14 points at one point.

It's one thing to lose, it's another thing to be embarrassed

[Born2Steel]

Tomlin has only one win against the Patriots with Brady and it was in 2011.Tomlin is 1-6 against the Patriots with Brady and Brady has 22 TD(or 25),0 INT,QB rating of 125 in 7 games vs Tomlin.

In his 6 losses against the Patriots, the steelers were behind the Patriots by at least 18 points in 5 of his games, the other the steelers were behind by 14 points at one point.

It's one thing to lose, it's another thing to be embarrassed

Are you basing Tomlin's entire career accomplishments on how many times he's beaten Tom Brady? Beyond tunnel vision. 10 years without a losing season should have more value than 7 games vs Tom Brady.

[steelreserve]

Tomlin vs the Pats. 8 losses, 3 by less than 12pts(2 scores). So 5 'embarassments'? But 3 wins, by 14, 23, and 8. By my count, that's 3 wins, 3 losses within reach of being wins, and 5 losses by more than 2 scores. I do not feel this defines his legacy as the coach of the Steelers.

I mean, that's still 3-8.

And as far as his legacy goes ... that pretty much defines "good, but not good enough." In 10 years there's been a lot of that feeling, of just not quite being able to close the deal. And when the Patriots aren't the ones standing directly in the way, they're generally a good barometer for it.

[polamalubeast]

Are you basing Tomlin's entire career accomplishments on how many times he's beaten Tom Brady? Beyond tunnel vision. 10 years without a losing season should have more value than 7 games vs Tom Brady.

As I said, Tomlin is a very good coach, but he must be better if the steelers want to win the AFC and to win the AFC, very likely they will have to beat the pats in a big game and right now the steelers are unable to compete against them.

For not having losing season, if that would be his biggest accomplishment, it would be a problem, but fortunately it's not Tomlin's biggest accomplishment.

[Born2Steel]

I wonder if Belichick is being judged on his ability to beat the Giants. Or maybe to go undefeated through the Superbowl. I hope it's not for his ability to give a damn about his players.

[polamalubeast]

I wonder if Belichick is being judged on his ability to beat the Giants. Or maybe to go undefeated through the Superbowl. I hope it's not for his ability to give a damn about his players.

3 big differences...The giants are in the NFC....His 2 defeats to the super bowl against the Giants were by 3 and 4 points....And Belichick has won 5 super bowl.

[st33lersguy]

Are we really going to judge Tomlin only on how he does against Bellichick and blindly say every coach that does better against him is better than Tomlin? That is serious tunnel vision. For the Coughlin is better because he beat Bellichick crowd, Coughlin had 8 losing seasons in 20 years as a coach including three consecutive losing seasons to close out his career with 2 different teams. He missed the playoffs 6 out of his last 7 years as a head coach including the last 4. Tomlin has no losing seasons on his resume and no more than 2 consecutive seasons without a playoff appearance, all while undergoing a roster overhaul where aging Super Bowl vets were replaced with new young players

[BurghBoy412]

I feel like this thread is just looking for something to complain about. If you hate Coach Tomlin and you want him replaced that's your opinion and you are entitled to that. However if this is your stance. I challenge you to name a replacement that would upgrade the position immediately. I doubt you can name that person. Don't go naming guys that already have jobs with other organizations either. Convince me that your replacement coach will have greater success. You probably won't try because you and I both know anyone you come up with will have no feet to stand on. So go ahead and stop with this already. Coach T is the guy for the job PERIOD. End of story. Next lame topic please.

[steelreserve]

I feel like this thread is just looking for something to complain about. If you hate Coach Tomlin and you want him replaced that's your opinion and you are entitled to that. However if this is your stance. I challenge you to name a replacement that would upgrade the position immediately. I doubt you can name that person. Don't go naming guys that already have jobs with other organizations either. Convince me that your replacement coach will have greater success. You probably won't try because you and I both know anyone you come up with will have no feet to stand on. So go ahead and stop with this already. Coach T is the guy for the job PERIOD. End of story. Next lame topic please.

I hate those kinds of arguments. Few head coaches are available at any given time, so you are basically closing the door on any kind of rational debate and declaring that you won.

A better question is: Which coaches that are/were available over the past 10 seasons would you rather have had than Tomlin? Ah, now that's a more reasonable topic. Since he's one of the longest-tenured coaches in the league, that means that nearly every coach or coordinator, from college or the pros, was available at some point during Tomlin's career here, other than Bill Belichick. Yes, that includes Jim Harbaugh, that includes Pete Carroll, that includes Andy Reid, etc. Are we really so sure he's the one and only, if we could have our choice of virtually anyone? Not so much of a one-sided debate now, is it?

I'm not one of the crowd that says "fire Tomlin immediately," at least not anymore, but probably anywhere from 15-30 guys have come and gone in that period who would've been as good or better. Likely an equal number who would've been just as good but we'll never even know about because they didn't land in high-profile head coaching jobs. Yeah, there are plenty worse coaches out there, but this hands-down, no-questions bullshit is just as lame as what you're trying to complain about.

[BurghBoy412]

I hate those kinds of arguments. Few head coaches are available at any given time, so you are basically closing the door on any kind of rational debate and declaring that you won.

A better question is: Which coaches that are/were available over the past 10 seasons would you rather have had than Tomlin? Ah, now that's a more reasonable topic. Since he's one of the longest-tenured coaches in the league, that means we could've had our choice of virtually any coach or coordinator, from college or the pros, at some point during Tomlin's career here, other than Bill Belichick. Are we really so sure he's the one and only? Not so much of a one-sided debate now, is it?

I'm not one of the crowd that says "fire Tomlin immediately," at least not anymore, but probably anywhere from 15-30 guys have come and gone in that period who would've been as good or better. Likely an equal number who would've been just as good but we'll never even know about because they didn't land in high-profile head coaching jobs. Yeah, there are plenty worse coaches out there, but this hands-down, no-questions bullshit is just as lame as what you're trying to complain about.I don't see any point in a theoretical debate. He was the coach for the last 10 years. So what exactly is the point of playing with "what ifs"? The topic has already been decided. Besides why not unite behind the Coach of our beloved team? Why insist on tearing a man down?

[Butch]

I can't stand the cheats because I attribute all their winning to cheating, so I will take them out of the equation.

The other team that I would argue that has always seemed to have our number is the ravens. Would the Steelers be a better team with Harbaugh as our coach, or would the ravens be better with Tomlin? I mean lets face it no way is Flacco better than Ben, yet Harbaugh did manage to win one superbowl with him as their qb. They beat us 2ce last year without Suggs and once without Flacco (what an embarrassment). FWIW the ravens have also beat the pats by using the strength of their defense and a good game plan. In the AFCC game we went away from our defensive game plan and played right into the cheats hands. They had a field day against us. IMHO that is the difference in coaching and to me Harbaugh does better with less.

[Born2Steel]

I can't stand the cheats because I attribute all their winning to cheating, so I will take them out of the equation.

The other team that I would argue that has always seemed to have our number is the ravens. Would the Steelers be a better team with Harbaugh as our coach, or would the ravens be better with Tomlin? I mean lets face it no way is Flacco better than Ben, yet Harbaugh did manage to win one superbowl with him as their qb. They beat us 2ce last year without Suggs and once without Flacco (what an embarrassment). FWIW the ravens have also beat the pats by using the strength of their defense and a good game plan. In the AFCC game we went away from our defensive game plan and played right into the cheats hands. They had a field day against us. IMHO that is the difference in coaching and to me Harbaugh does better with less.

That's all good, fine, and wonderful. Doesn't make Tomlin less for what he did here. Just because one guy is a 'great' coach, doesn't make the rest bad coaches. Tomlin is a very good coach that gets the most from his team, and most of the time, MOST OF THE TIME, wins the damn game!

[polamalubeast]

Tomlin is a top 10 Coach.....Top 5, I do not think.Still a very good coach.

[Mojouw]

This is getting absolutely ridiculous. First Tom Coughlin, now Harbaugh. Tomlin has won more games than both over the same period of time. The only season during Harbaughs tenure that the Ravens suffered some of the same types of season altering injuries as Tomlin's Steeelers regularly do, they collapsed and went 5-11. Look at their roster, which everyone keeps telling me is better than the Steelers, and explain to me how 8-8 is okay?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/HarbJo0.htm

Harbaugh has one winning season since his core of HOF players moved on after the SB. Tomlin has at last 3.

Since Tomlin came into the league here are the coaches who have won more games:

Bellicheck
Andy Reid
Sean Payton (1 game)
Mike McCarthy

thats the list.

[steelreserve]

I don't see any point in a theoretical debate. He was the coach for the last 10 years. So what exactly is the point of playing with "what ifs"? The topic has already been decided. Besides why not unite behind the Coach of our beloved team? Why insist on tearing a man down?

For that matter, if there's nothing to debate, why even have a message board?

[Born2Steel]

There are things to debate, football-wise, draft-wise. This debate is just dumb.

[st33lersguy]

John Harbaugh, 31-33 since Ray Lewis retired and Ed Reed was released. Tomlin's teams have advanced further than the previous year the last three years with a young team and without almost all the 00s Super Bowl vets. Case closed

[polamalubeast]

This is getting absolutely ridiculous. First Tom Coughlin, now Harbaugh. Tomlin has won more games than both over the same period of time. The only season during Harbaughs tenure that the Ravens suffered some of the same types of season altering injuries as Tomlin's Steeelers regularly do, they collapsed and went 5-11. Look at their roster, which everyone keeps telling me is better than the Steelers, and explain to me how 8-8 is okay?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/HarbJo0.htm

Harbaugh has one winning season since his core of HOF players moved on after the SB. Tomlin has at last 3.

Since Tomlin came into the league here are the coaches who have won more games:

Bellicheck
Andy Reid
Sean Payton (1 game)
Mike McCarthy

thats the list.



Firstly, the steelers' roster at the moment is much better than the Ravens.The problem of the ravens right now is that Baltimore lacks star players.Despite this, the ravens almost won the AFC NORTH in 2016.

In the last game against them, the ravens had scored their TD too quickly at the end, otherwise the steelers would have missed the playoffs!

For 2015, the ravens were competitive in almost every games except games against the Seahawks and Chiefs....If Ben was injured in 2013 at mid season as Flacco was in 2015, the steelers would also have ended the season with 4 or 5 wins at best.

[st33lersguy]

And if we want to be real, if Rahim Moore doesn't trip over his own feet like an idiot at the end of the divisional game that year, if Rob Gronkowski and Aqib Talib play in that year's championshio game, or if the refs call a blatant holding penalty at the end of Super Bowl 47, Harbaugh would have 0 Super Bowl rings right now. That 2012 championship team was probably the luckiest team in NFL history, having to rely on numerous breaks going their way during the regular season and postseason.

[polamalubeast]

And if we want to be real, if Rahim Moore doesn't trip over his own feet like an idiot at the end of the divisional game that year, if Rob Gronkowski and Aqib Talib play in that year's championshio game, or if the refs call a blatant holding penalty at the end of Super Bowl 47, Harbaugh would have 0 Super Bowl rings right now. That 2012 championship team was probably the luckiest team in NFL history, having to rely on numerous breaks going their way during the regular season and postseason.


You have to look at the other side as well.

If Lee Evans catches the ball at the end of the game against the pats in the AFC title game in 2011, maybe John Harbaugh has 2 rings.I could make an argument for 2010 as well.

[st33lersguy]

You have to look at the other side as well.

If Lee Evans catches the ball at the end of the game against the pats in the AFC title game in 2011, maybe John Harbaugh has 2 rings.

I'd argue the Ravens would have gotten eliminated the prior week had the Texans 3rd string QB not gifted them that win

[polamalubeast]

I'd argue the Ravens would have gotten eliminated the prior week had the Texans 3rd string QB not gifted them that win



I don't think that Mr. Pick 6 (Matt Schaub) or Matt Leinart would have beaten the Ravens in their house.

[Mojouw]

Since 2008:

Harbaugh - 85 wins, 1 SB win, 2 8-8 years, and 1 losing season.

Tomlin - 93 wins, 2 SB appearances w/ 1 SB win, 2 8-8 years, no losing seasons.

So, what is the reason that I should see Harbaugh as a better coach?

In years where Tomlin's teams got ravaged by injuries, his next man up style coaxed 8-8 and darn near playoff appearances out of those teams. The Ravens folded up their tents and went 5-11.

I mean if we are just going to ignore the actual numbers, you know the wins and loses or what matters in the NFL, and just go by how things make us feel...what's the point?

[Psycho Ward 86]

Since 2008:

Harbaugh - 85 wins, 1 SB win, 2 8-8 years, and 1 losing season.

Tomlin - 93 wins, 2 SB appearances w/ 1 SB win, 2 8-8 years, no losing seasons.

So, what is the reason that I should see Harbaugh as a better coach?

In years where Tomlin's teams got ravaged by injuries, his next man up style coaxed 8-8 and darn near playoff appearances out of those teams. The Ravens folded up their tents and went 5-11.

I mean if we are just going to ignore the actual numbers, you know the wins and loses or what matters in the NFL, and just go by how things make us feel...what's the point?

Big Ben > Joe Flacco by a galaxy

If Harbaugh was on the steelers during that span of time, what exactly do you believe he would have done more poorly than Tomlin? I dont know if i buy into this rah rah he's a cool coach vibe as much as many. The head coach doesnt have to be hip and all that jazz to be successful. Most of the best coaches ever were known as more no nonsense, authoritarian types.

And even if you believe times are changing and the Tomlin type is needed, ive definitely seen articles that say similar things as far as relatability with the players is concerned. And Harbaugh is supposedly a lot like that too

[polamalubeast]

Since 2008:

Harbaugh - 85 wins, 1 SB win, 2 8-8 years, and 1 losing season.

Tomlin - 93 wins, 2 SB appearances w/ 1 SB win, 2 8-8 years, no losing seasons.

So, what is the reason that I should see Harbaugh as a better coach?

In years where Tomlin's teams got ravaged by injuries, his next man up style coaxed 8-8 and darn near playoff appearances out of those teams. The Ravens folded up their tents and went 5-11.

I mean if we are just going to ignore the actual numbers, you know the wins and loses or what matters in the NFL, and just go by how things make us feel...what's the point?

Not forget that Harbaugh is 10-5 in the Playoffs(with 7 road Playoffs win,tied for the Best of all-time with Tom Coughlin and Tom Landry!) and Tomlin is 8-6.

Of course, Win-Loss is the most important thing, but we must also look at the quality of their roster and QB .....

[st33lersguy]

In years where Tomlin's teams got ravaged by injuries, his next man up style coaxed 8-8 and darn near playoff appearances out of those teams. The Ravens folded up their tents and went 5-11.



They suffered plenty of injuries (and suspensions) in 2015 and came damn close to knocking off the eventual Super Bowl champs in the divisional round of the playoffs

[st33lersguy]

Both and Tomlin and Harbaugh have gone through roster upheavals and the departures of numerous veteran players (including franchise icons), big difference is Tomlin has been winning consistently after losing a lot of great players and veteran leadership and has been winning with a lot of young guys. Harbaugh not so much

[Mojouw]

Let me make sure I have this correct. Because I think I'm pretty much ready to give up on this debate. Here is what I think I am hearing:

1. Tom Coughlin is a better coach than Mike Tomlin.
2. John Harbaugh is a better coach than Mike Tomlin.
3. Tomlin is just a "cool guy" who doesn't really do anything that impacts his football team and has benefited from a HOF caliber QB and a loaded roster.
4. Playing guys like Antwon/Valentino Blake is a point of fact that Tomlin kinda sucks.
5. Tomlin is terrible at clock management and challenges.
6. Tomlin can't beat the Patriots, so he stinks.

That seems to sum up the main points that have been leveled against my "Tomlin is pretty damn good at winning games in the NFL" argument.

But, we get to ignore or not counter the following:

1. Mike Tomlin has more wins than anyone besides Bellicheck, Andy Reid, Sean Payton (1 game), and Mike McCarthy. More than Coughlin, Harbaugh (both of them), Carroll, etc - and yeah, I did the math so I only counted wins from when they were in the league. So no 9 years being compared to 6 or anything like that).
2. Tom Coughlin wasted most of Eli Manning's career with crappy, uninspired teams that ran outdated offenses, lost a ton of games they should have won, payed big $$$ to declining veterans, etc. But let's talk more about Antwon Blake!
3. Remember when the Ravens were geniuses for drafting Arthur Brown (Harbaugh) as the heir to Ray Lewis in the middle of their defense and the Steelers (Tomlin) were so dumb for taking a RB in the 2nd round that wasn't Eddie Lacy (McCarthy)?
4. The Ravens have desperately been trying to find a viable deep threat WR for Flacco's moonballs for years. Over-paid Wallace, whiffed on Torrey Smith, over-drafted Perriman, etc. Meanwhile the Steelers have a WR assembly line that just keeps stamping out pass-catchers like license plates from 3rd round or lower draft picks.
5. Ask Phillip Rivers if he might like to have Mike Tomlin for a coach - rather than the parade of incompetents who've helped waste basically his entire career.

Maybe, Tegree did have it right - Tobamlin is the most polarizing coach the Steelers will ever have. I don't know, but it seems like folks do a ton of logical contortions to get around the fact that Tobamlin is one of the 5-10 best coaches in the league.

[teegre]

You all have convinced me: Andy Reid is a better than Mike Tomlin.

There are only four coaches with a better win-loss record than Tomlin: Belichick, Payton, McCarthy, & Reid. We can eliminate Belichick, Payton, & McCarthy, because of the "Harbaugh-Flacco rule", any coach who has a better QB than an opposing coach is not considered better.

Tomlin is not better than Harbaugh, because he has BB (who is better than Flacco). Likewise, Belichick, Payton, & McCarthy are not better than Tomlin, because they have Brady, Brees, & Rodgers (who are better than BB).

That leaves only Andy Reid.

But, but, but... when Belichick didn't have Brady, he had a better record (than Tomlin's 8-8 without BB). Really???
2000 5-11
2001 0-2
2008 11-5
2016 3-1
That is 19-19... which is also .500.

But, but, but... Brady did not start until the third game of 2001. Using the "Antwan Blake rationale": whose fault was that??? Just like how Tomlin would have had more wins/gone farther in the playoffs if he had not stubbornly started Blake, Belichick would have been smart to start (or at least dress) Tom Brady in 2000 & 2001. Thankfully, Mo Lewis helped Belichick out.

SUMMATION:
As I've averred a hundred times: if you like/dislike Tomlin, you can skew any & all stats to prove that he is good/bad.

[Born2Steel]

The POINT is Tomlin is an A+ coach in the NFL. There are some coaches that are comparable, maybe even 1 or 2 or 3 or however you count, a bit better than Tomlin. If, for example, Bellichick is the 'bestest evah'. That in no way takes away from what Tomlin HAS DONE. The comparisons don't make any sense to the thread anyway. After 10 years as the Steelers coach, what grade does Tomlin get? A++.

[FrancoLambert]

Tomlin is a good coach.....not great......not bad.

He has strengths and weaknesses like every coach. (Belichick's weakness is cheating.)

It's always easiest to say "fire the guy."

The hardest part is finding someone better.

Perusing the list of NFL coaches....maybe only a few at the most that could be considered a clear upgrade over Tomlin at his point in time.

[Butch]

Since 2008:

Harbaugh - 85 wins, 1 SB win, 2 8-8 years, and 1 losing season.

Tomlin - 93 wins, 2 SB appearances w/ 1 SB win, 2 8-8 years, no losing seasons.

So, what is the reason that I should see Harbaugh as a better coach?

In years where Tomlin's teams got ravaged by injuries, his next man up style coaxed 8-8 and darn near playoff appearances out of those teams. The Ravens folded up their tents and went 5-11.

I mean if we are just going to ignore the actual numbers, you know the wins and loses or what matters in the NFL, and just go by how things make us feel...what's the point?

There is much more to it than just wins and loses it's about getting the most out of your team that ultimately leads to over all success.

Even though the ravens went 5-11 which team did they beat not once but twice? Once without Flacco or suggs who are two of their better players.

Tomlin has had Ben his whole time with us so that is a HUGE reason he has such a great record. Give Harbaugh our team and see what he can do with it vs what Tomlin can do with the ravens. Challenges, losing to inferior teams every year, his coaching staff refuses to make in game adjustments. WTH was with the defensive game plan against the cheats in the afcc game this past year. Why do you insist on dropping your best pass rusher into coverage rather than trying to do what we have done all year and bring the pressure. BTW if you want to beat the cheats you better get to shady brady. You may not win doing it that way but you sure the hell aint gonna beat them if you don't. Both the giants and the ravens have beaten them on a regular basis by getting to shady brady.

[polamalubeast]

Just to say that I do not want to see Tomlin being fired since it will be hard to replace him.

Not because I think Coughlin, Harbaugh or others are better HC than it means that Tomlin is a bad Head Coach.Tomlin is a very good head coach

[Mojouw]

Like I said, logic and reason seem to not really apply to this discussion.

Apparently all that matters is beating the Pats and Ravens and making the tactical/strategic adjustments that we all bellow at the TV from our couches each Sunday.

There was a certain beloved chin jutting coach who used to regularly start out the season slowly, lost to some teams he shouldn't have, randomly over-drafted players, and saved his dumbest gameplans for the playoffs (sometimes). He seemed to have a helluva time beating a certain hoody wearing head coach from the northeast also. Refresh my memory, was he a good or bad coach?

Like, I said, logic, reason, and consistent criteria for evaluation do not seem to be part of this discussion.

[Butch]

My frustration is that Tomlin does not always get the best from his team. We only have so much time with Ben at the helm and I don't think we have gotten the most from this team while he is here and now it may be to little to late. When Ben is threatening retirement something is not right. When Ben 1st came to this team I was expecting him to make 4 or 5 super bowls that's how good he and this team were. Maybe my expectations were to lofty, but if I at least felt we got the most out of this team I could rest easier.

IMHO Tomlin is a good coach, but no way a great coach. His teams are unprepared way to many times a year.

As for other coaches the Steelers don't go after other teams cast off coaches rather they look for the ones who are up and coming. I don't follow other teams or even the college game, so I have no idea who is out there, but if/when this team replaces Tomlin it will most likely be someone we have never seen coach before in the NFL.

[polamalubeast]

We must not judge a coach by only the record, since sometimes your team has more talent than other team.I mean, in his time with the Penguins, Dan Bylsma had one of the best records in the NHL, he also won the Stanley Cup, but he was not considered one of the best HCs in the NHL even before his time with Buffalo .

I do not compare Mike Tomlin to Dan Bylsma, since Tomlin is much better, but the record does not always say if a coach is better than others.

I consider Sean Payton better than Mike Tomlin too.Not his fault if his defense is one of the worst every year ...

[Butch]

Like I said, logic and reason seem to not really apply to this discussion.

Apparently all that matters is beating the Pats and Ravens and making the tactical/strategic adjustments that we all bellow at the TV from our couches each Sunday.

There was a certain beloved chin jutting coach who used to regularly start out the season slowly, lost to some teams he shouldn't have, randomly over-drafted players, and saved his dumbest gameplans for the playoffs (sometimes). He seemed to have a helluva time beating a certain hoody wearing head coach from the northeast also. Refresh my memory, was he a good or bad coach?

Like, I said, logic, reason, and consistent criteria for evaluation do not seem to be part of this discussion.

So if I don't agree with your perspective there is no logic? My logic may be different than yours, but it's still logic.

Glad you brought up Cowher, tell me again who his franchise QBs were? Yes he was a choker in the Big games, but when he had Ben we won, to bad he didn't have Ben sooner or that he didn't just stay longer.

I used the ravens to point out that a coach with less talent has been able to beat us more often than not including that 5-11 season that you brought up and without their starting qb at the helm. Give Harbaugh Ben and give Tomlin Flacco and I don't think we are happy with our coach any more.


making the tactical/strategic adjustments that we all bellow at the TV from our couches each Sunday.

I don't have to be a coach to see the flaws in a coaching adjustment or lack there of. What great coaching strategy would drop your best pass rushers into coverage against shady brady when the only real way to beat them is to rush him. We may not have won doing it that way, but it gave us a better chance than rushing only 3 and dropping everyone else into coverage. This is where I see the flaws in a Tomlin coached team. Yes both teams are the ravens and the cheats but there are plenty of other examples such as losing to lesser raiders, browns and other teams that should not even get close. Hell this year the browns made adjustments and damn near came back to beat us in the 2nd half after we built up what should have been a rout.

Yes wins and losses are the ultimate stat, but there are times when a win is nothing to brag about and a loss is pure embarrassment. Let's see what Tomlin does when Ben retires.

[Born2Steel]

We must not judge a coach by only the record, since sometimes your team has more talent than other team.I mean, in his time with the Penguins, Dan Bylsma had one of the best records in the NHL, he also won the Stanley Cup, but he was not considered one of the best HCs in the NHL even before his time with Buffalo .

I do not compare Mike Tomlin to Dan Bylsma, since Tomlin is much better, but the record does not always say if a coach is better than others.

I consider Sean Payton better than Mike Tomlin too.Not his fault if his defense is one of the worst every year ...

Put a bow on it. Cannot argue that.

[Mojouw]

Wait. wait. This is too comical!

Tomlin gets shit for playing Blake, losing to bad teams, etc - BUT IT ISN'T Sean Payton's fault the defense sucks despite throwing FA money, coordinators, and draft picks at it? Then who the hell's fault is it?

Cowher can have many of the same sins as Tomlin, but it's okay because his QB's stunk?

Also, Harbaugh and Tomlin have overlapped from 2008-2016. The Steelers have won 10 and lost 11 in that span. Interestingly Tomlin and the Steelers have won 2 of 3 playoff meetings and 2 of the losses to the Ravens were in OT.

So, please, tell me again how the Ravens beat the Steelers more often. Pittsburgh leads the all-time series 25-21. So that means coaches prior to Tomlin went 15-10 against them, a better record. That has to be acknowledged. But it isn't like since Harbaugh rode into town the Ravens have been running up the series lead or anything.

[BurghBoy412]

Can we rename this thread "I hate Tomlin! We'd be 10x Superbowl champs if it wasn't for his poor coaching." Thread ? Let's all go live in the magical land of WHAT IF! Seriously though. Why doesn't anybody ever bring up replacing Carnell Lake? How does this guy keep his job? I can't remember all that many seasons in which the secondary wasn't the teams main liability. Why is this guy so untouchable? Isn't he responsible for the back half? Why are they consistently in the bottom half secondaries???????

[polamalubeast]

I may be wrong, but I do not think Payton is the GM of the Saints....

Regardless, looks at the success that Payton had between 2009 to 2011 when he had an average defense...37-11 in regular season and one super bowl win and he was the big reason with Drew Brees of this super bowl win because of his onside kick at the start of the 3rd quarter!!!!

[Butch]

Wait. wait. This is too comical!

Tomlin gets shit for playing Blake, losing to bad teams, etc - BUT IT ISN'T Sean Payton's fault the defense sucks despite throwing FA money, coordinators, and draft picks at it? Then who the hell's fault is it?

Cowher can have many of the same sins as Tomlin, but it's okay because his QB's stunk?

Also, Harbaugh and Tomlin have overlapped from 2008-2016. The Steelers have won 10 and lost 11 in that span. Interestingly Tomlin and the Steelers have won 2 of 3 playoff meetings and 2 of the losses to the Ravens were in OT.

So, please, tell me again how the Ravens beat the Steelers more often. Pittsburgh leads the all-time series 25-21. So that means coaches prior to Tomlin went 15-10 against them, a better record. That has to be acknowledged. But it isn't like since Harbaugh rode into town the Ravens have been running up the series lead or anything.

Oh so now that people don't agree with you it's comical. Why are you riding on such a high horse? If you want to debate debate, but quit trying to brow beat anyone who disagrees with your opinion.

You brought up Cowher not me, I simply pointed out that he did not have a franchise QB for most of his time with us.

Harbaugh vs Tomlin - Tomlin is 1 win better than him in the playoffs with a better QB being the major difference. The last playoff game was a win by the ravens in Pittsburgh where we were highly favored to win. He beat us the year he went 5-11 with a backup QB. Which back up QB did Tomlin beat him with? If not for a stretch by AB we would have lost against the ravens on Christmas day. So now tell me again how Tomlin gets more out of his players than Harbaugh does or maybe you think that Flacco is just as good if not better than Ben?

[Born2Steel]

Oh so now that people don't agree with you it's comical. Why are you riding on such a high horse? If you want to debate debate, but quit trying to brow beat anyone who disagrees with your opinion.

You brought up Cowher not me, I simply pointed out that he did not have a franchise QB for most of his time with us.

Harbaugh vs Tomlin - Tomlin is 1 win better than him in the playoffs with a better QB being the major difference. The last playoff game was a win by the ravens in Pittsburgh where we were highly favored to win. He beat us the year he went 5-11 with a backup QB. Which back up QB did Tomlin beat him with? If not for a stretch by AB we would have lost against the ravens on Christmas day. So now tell me again how Tomlin gets more out of his players than Harbaugh does or maybe you think that Flacco is just as good if not better than Ben?

Sticking with the title of this thread then, what grade do you give Harbaugh? John, not Jim, so to be clear. And once you have graded Harbaugh, explain how that diminishes anything Tomlin has done as the coach here.

[BurghBoy412]

Delete, Delete, Delete!!

[fansince'76]

Harbaugh vs Tomlin - He beat us the year he went 5-11 with a backup QB. Which back up QB did Tomlin beat him with?

http://boringpittsburgh.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/charlie-batch-hugging-big-ben-roethlisberger-steelers.jpg

[Mojouw]

Oh so now that people don't agree with you it's comical. Why are you riding on such a high horse? If you want to debate debate, but quit trying to brow beat anyone who disagrees with your opinion.

You brought up Cowher not me, I simply pointed out that he did not have a franchise QB for most of his time with us.

Harbaugh vs Tomlin - Tomlin is 1 win better than him in the playoffs with a better QB being the major difference. The last playoff game was a win by the ravens in Pittsburgh where we were highly favored to win. He beat us the year he went 5-11 with a backup QB. Which back up QB did Tomlin beat him with? If not for a stretch by AB we would have lost against the ravens on Christmas day. So now tell me again how Tomlin gets more out of his players than Harbaugh does or maybe you think that Flacco is just as good if not better than Ben?

We can totally disagree and I'm not attempting to browbeat anyone. What I am asking for is the same criteria and standards to be applied in the evaluations.

If Tomlin gets blamed for Blake playing then Peyton has to be blamed for his defense being atrocious for the better part of a decade.

If Tomlin gets blamed for losing to lesser teams and starting slow, then other coaches, including Da Chin, have to take the same heat.

If Tomlin is going to get graded down because he can not beat New England, then other coaches, including Da Chin, have to take the same heat.

If Tomlin doesn't get credit for AB stretching out and being willing to sacrifice his body in any way to win a football game, then how can other coaches get MORE credit for getting the most out of their players?

If Tomlin gets graded down for being a poor clock and game manager, how are Andy Reid and Mike McCarthy consistently rated by some here as better coaches? Their struggles with clock management, challenges, and late game points decisions are almost weekly sources of internet and sports talk radio discussion and ridicule.

I am totally open to having debate, discussion, and differences of opinion. What I am critical of is when the criteria for evaluation are constantly shifting and not universally applied. It would be like my boss telling me that I can't take any breaks during my shift, but the other guy can because he is wearing a purple shirt.

[st33lersguy]

So let me understand this, Tomlin will be judged based off of his ability to win without Ben, but Sean Payton gets a pass for going 7-9 the last 3 years with one of the most prolific passers in NFL history because it's not his fault the defense blows. Oh and while we are on the subject of Tomlin playing without Ben, are we going to give Tomlin credit for going 3-1 at the start of 2010 while his starting QBs were Dennis Dixon and aging Charlie Batch? How about when Michael Vick who couldn't hit anything in 2015 started 3 games and the Steelers won 2 of them, no credit there?

Also if we are going to judge Tomlin based off the ability to beat the Ravens and Patriots, I guess we have to conclude that John Fox is and Gary Kubiak was a better head coach because they beat Bellichick in AFC Championship games with the Broncos and Tomlin didn't. And what about Marvin Lewis, he consistently beats the Ravens, has for a few years now, are we going to say Marvin Lewis is a better head coach than Tomlin because he does a better job at beating the Ravens, or since Harbaugh has gotten the better of Tomlin most of the time the last few years, Tomlin has gotten the better of Lewis most of the time, and Lewis has done the same to Harbaugh, are all three equal to each other now?

I think the only thing missing from this discussion are those groups of people who post just to complain about stuff

[Butch]

http://boringpittsburgh.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/charlie-batch-hugging-big-ben-roethlisberger-steelers.jpg

Good one, but this in itself begs the question who is the better backup Charlie Batch or Ryan Mallet? Ryan btw was a forth string QB.

[Mojouw]

And as long as we are on the subject, the lack of people using facts and data to back-up their opinions is frustrating as hell. We are all typing out these messages on a device that is connected to the entire store of human knowledge.

Harbaugh is 3-6 against the Patriots since he took over the Ravens. With 2 playoff wins and a playoff loss - http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/baltimore-ravens/teamvsteam?opp=19

Tomlin is 2-6 against the Patriots since he took over the Steelers. With one playoff loss - http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/teamvsteam?opp=19

So, let's talk about that Ravens domination against the Pats.

[polamalubeast]

For Antwon Blake, the problem is that the steelers had a better player at this position who was on the bench....

[Mojouw]

For Antwon Blake, the problem is that the steelers had a better player at this position who was on the bench....

Antwon Blake, for some bizzare reason still collects a pay-check from an NFL team. Boykin isn't even in the league anymore.

Okay, I'll give the Antwon Blake thing, but that is like ONE thing. One.

[polamalubeast]

And as long as we are on the subject, the lack of people using facts and data to back-up their opinions is frustrating as hell. We are all typing out these messages on a device that is connected to the entire store of human knowledge.

Harbaugh is 3-6 against the Patriots since he took over the Ravens. With 2 playoff wins and a playoff loss - http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/baltimore-ravens/teamvsteam?opp=19

Tomlin is 2-6 against the Patriots since he took over the Steelers. With one playoff loss - http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/teamvsteam?opp=19

So, let's talk about that Ravens domination against the Pats.


Harbaugh could easily be 4-0 in the playoffs against the Patriots...I mean, the Ravens had the lead at one point in the second half in each of his games.

How many times did it happen to the steelers with Tomlin against the Patriots with Brady?

- - - Updated - - -


Antwon Blake, for some bizzare reason still collects a pay-check from an NFL team. Boykin isn't even in the league anymore.

Okay, I'll give the Antwon Blake thing, but that is like ONE thing. One.


Boykin is not healthy right now, which is his problem but it was not a problem when he was with Steelers or the Eagles.

I do not think Blake was a starter with the Titans and I do not think he will be a starter with the Giants unless they have a lot of injuries to that positions.

[st33lersguy]

Also, I think Tomlin losing to bad teams too often is fair criticism, but Harbaugh has lost to his fair share of crappy teams as well

2010: The Ravens lose to the 4-12 Bengals. If they win this game, they win the division and a first round bye, and they get to host the Steelers in the divisional round that year
2011: The Ravens lose to the 5-11 Jaguars. Blaine Gabbert, one of the worst starting NFL QBs to play during this millennium was the starting QB
2012: The Ravens lose to the 4-12 Eagles and their "Dream Team"
2013: The Ravens lose to the 4-12 Browns. If they win this game, they get a playoff spot that year
2015: The Ravens lose to the 3-13 Browns at home and the 5-11 49ers
2016: The Ravens lose to the 5-11 Jets, a team that seemed even worse than that

[Edman]

The Ravens have lost to the Patriots, but they have taken them to the brink in each game they've played, and actually beat them in the playoffs.

When was the last time the Steelers were halfway competitive with New England? You know, when the Steelers were not completely and totally embarrassed?

We had a better chance with Landry Jones in Pittsburgh against Tom, when he also had Gronkowski.

We meet them again, on a bigger stage, without Gronkowski, with the Killer B's healthy, and can't come close to making it a competitive contest.

Patriots lose one of their game breakers and still mop the floor with the Steelers. We lose Ben/Le'Veon Bell and fall apart. No Gronk, no problem. Here is Chris Hogan having the game of his career.

Tom Brady threw 40+ passes in that championship. Not a single one was defended by the Steelers Defense. Not ONE. It never once donned on Tomlin that the gameplans we trot against New England do not work.

That's on coaching. Belichick vs Tomlin is no contest. How Mike consistently falters against the elite peers of his league, makes Tomlin a B-level coach at best.

[polamalubeast]

The only game against the Ravens were not competitive against the pats under Harbaugh were in 2013 in week 16.You can count this year's game too if you want.

[Mojouw]

Harbaugh could easily be 4-0 in the playoffs against the Patriots...I mean, the Ravens had the lead at one point in the second half in each of his games.

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. A loss is a loss is a loss.

[polamalubeast]

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. A loss is a loss is a loss.



My big problem is that the steelers are not competitive against the Patriots.It's embarassing.

The Ravens have often been competitive against the Pats, especially in the playoffs.

[Butch]

We can totally disagree and I'm not attempting to browbeat anyone. What I am asking for is the same criteria and standards to be applied in the evaluations.

If Tomlin gets blamed for Blake playing then Peyton has to be blamed for his defense being atrocious for the better part of a decade.

If Tomlin gets blamed for losing to lesser teams and starting slow, then other coaches, including Da Chin, have to take the same heat.

If Tomlin is going to get graded down because he can not beat New England, then other coaches, including Da Chin, have to take the same heat.

If Tomlin doesn't get credit for AB stretching out and being willing to sacrifice his body in any way to win a football game, then how can other coaches get MORE credit for getting the most out of their players?

If Tomlin gets graded down for being a poor clock and game manager, how are Andy Reid and Mike McCarthy consistently rated by some here as better coaches? Their struggles with clock management, challenges, and late game points decisions are almost weekly sources of internet and sports talk radio discussion and ridicule.

I am totally open to having debate, discussion, and differences of opinion. What I am critical of is when the criteria for evaluation are constantly shifting and not universally applied. It would be like my boss telling me that I can't take any breaks during my shift, but the other guy can because he is wearing a purple shirt.

It would be great if all you had to do is look at records and stats and then say ok these say this and they don't lie. Sad thing is there is more than stats and wins and losses. Wins mean nothing if you don't get a ring ask the cheatriots about that. Win the Super Bowl and all is forgiven everything else is up for debate. While a QB is not the only reason for wins and loses it is arguably the biggest reason for most wins and loses. You can win without a franchise QB but chances are not likely. Therefore my reasoning as to why some coaches can do better with less. Harbaugh was my example and I stand by that opinion. I can't stand the way Harbaugh would bitch and whine when a call didn't go his way, but that being said he gets results.

I blame Tomlin for losing to lesser teams, but not to getting slow starts. He has always had the benefit of having Ben who I personally consider the best QB in the league. You can't say that Cowher had the same luxury so therefore that is why I cannot apply the same standard.

The Cheats Cowher beat a Tom Brady lead team on Oct 31st who came in on a 21 game win steak, with a rookie QB and followed it up with a win vs the eagles who also came in on an undefeated record. fwiw I used the afcc game to show his flows in game planning which kills me to no end. If you want to say that it's not him it's his coordinators then I say he is the one who chose them. I will give you that Butler was promised the job so maybe I can give some leeway, but over all it is his team or at least it should be. Also fwiw I try to use the cheats sparingly as I credit all their success to cheating, but again you have to go with a game plan that gives you the best chance of winning. Rushing 3 does not do that. Yes that is the year they were caught taping games and sternly warned (sheesh) by the NFL. The following year was when Spygate was brought to light.

Bringing up Blake brought up something else for me. Is it just me or does it seem like Tomlin has brought in free agent players who never see the field what is up with that? I will give credit for Green who at least saw some playing time but even at that he was not a major contributor at this point. Hopefully he will see the field a lot more this year.

I can concede your point on AB getting the stretch.

[Butch]

And as long as we are on the subject, the lack of people using facts and data to back-up their opinions is frustrating as hell. We are all typing out these messages on a device that is connected to the entire store of human knowledge.

Harbaugh is 3-6 against the Patriots since he took over the Ravens. With 2 playoff wins and a playoff loss - http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/baltimore-ravens/teamvsteam?opp=19

Tomlin is 2-6 against the Patriots since he took over the Steelers. With one playoff loss - http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/teamvsteam?opp=19

So, let's talk about that Ravens domination against the Pats.

Here is a fact Harbaugh has beaten the cheats twice in the playoffs with a QB who is not as good as Ben and with Shady Brady at the helm. While beating that team is not excellence by itself it is a stat where Harbaugh has done more with less. How many times has Tomlin beat a Shady Brady led team?

[Steel Peon]

Never do i say mannn Mike Tomlin really out smarted that team .

Actually, I can remember him outsmarting a team plenty of times, and they're called the Steelers. There's just so many puzzling in-game decisions on a regular basis, that it seems he thinks he's being really clever by making them, and then ends up out-smarting himself. I'm not going to get into a list or anything, but his obsession with 2-point attempts at the wrong time would be a good place to start.

[GBMelBlount]

In Harbaugh's defense, 83% of those teams have a .200+ winning percentage. :wink02:


Also, I think Tomlin losing to bad teams too often is fair criticism, but Harbaugh has lost to his fair share of crappy teams as well

2010: The Ravens lose to the 4-12 Bengals. If they win this game, they win the division and a first round bye, and they get to host the Steelers in the divisional round that year
2011: The Ravens lose to the 5-11 Jaguars. Blaine Gabbert, one of the worst starting NFL QBs to play during this millennium was the starting QB
2012: The Ravens lose to the 4-12 Eagles and their "Dream Team"
2013: The Ravens lose to the 4-12 Browns. If they win this game, they get a playoff spot that year
2015: The Ravens lose to the 3-13 Browns at home and the 5-11 49ers
2016: The Ravens lose to the 5-11 Jets, a team that seemed even worse than that

[teegre]

Tomlin has had Ben his whole time with us so that is a HUGE reason he has such a great record.

Belichick has had Brady his whole time, so that is a HUGE reason he has such a great record.

Payton has had Brees his whole time, so that is a HUGE reason he has such a great record.

McCarthy has had Rodgers his whole time, so that is a HUGE reason he has such a great record.

:huh:

[BurghBoy412]

Now we're defending Harbaugh! LMAO

[teegre]

Good one, but this in itself begs the question who is the better backup Charlie Batch or Ryan Mallet? Ryan btw was a forth string QB.

Batch beat the eventual SuperBowl champions.

[Butch]

Belichick has had Brady his whole time, so that is a HUGE reason he has such a great record.

Payton has had Brees his whole time, so that is a HUGE reason he has such a great record.

McCarthy has had Rodgers his whole time, so that is a HUGE reason he has such a great record.

:huh:

Belicheat cheated HUGE reason for his great record

Payton had Brees and the NFL witch hunt called bountygate which was a complete farce and broke up the only defense he ever had

McCarthy has Rodgers and an often injured unit who does pretty well all things considered.

Harbaugh has managed to win a Super bowl with Flacco as his QB

:jawdrop2:

- - - Updated - - -


Batch beat the eventual SuperBowl champions.

You prove my point who has the better QB. Batch was not a horrible QB. He also has more experience than Mallet.

[polamalubeast]

The last 4 seasons of Harbaugh reminds me of Bill Cowher's seasons between 1998 to 2003.

The HC is not the problem, the roster is the biggest problem right now.

[pczach]

You all have convinced me: Andy Reid is a better than Mike Tomlin.

There are only four coaches with a better win-loss record than Tomlin: Belichick, Payton, McCarthy, & Reid. We can eliminate Belichick, Payton, & McCarthy, because of the "Harbaugh-Flacco rule", any coach who has a better QB than an opposing coach is not considered better.

Tomlin is not better than Harbaugh, because he has BB (who is better than Flacco). Likewise, Belichick, Payton, & McCarthy are not better than Tomlin, because they have Brady, Brees, & Rodgers (who are better than BB).

That leaves only Andy Reid.

But, but, but... when Belichick didn't have Brady, he had a better record (than Tomlin's 8-8 without BB). Really???
2000 5-11
2001 0-2
2008 11-5
2016 3-1
That is 19-19... which is also .500.

But, but, but... Brady did not start until the third game of 2001. Using the "Antwan Blake rationale": whose fault was that??? Just like how Tomlin would have had more wins/gone farther in the playoffs if he had not stubbornly started Blake, Belichick would have been smart to start (or at least dress) Tom Brady in 2000 & 2001. Thankfully, Mo Lewis helped Belichick out.

SUMMATION:
As I've averred a hundred times: if you like/dislike Tomlin, you can skew any & all stats to prove that he is good/bad.


And in an incredible twist of fate, Andy Reid suffers from the same affliction that Bill Cowher suffered from....Lack of a truly great quarterback. Also, just like Cowher, Reid has always chosen to roll with lesser quarterbacks and try to play with more resources going into a stronger overall roster.

Tomlin is considered inferior to Cowher in every way by many fans. Now we are comparing a clone of Cowher that has a long history of coming up short in the playoffs in the form of Andy Reid.

I biggest points of contention against Tomlin seem to be:

His record against bad teams.
His record against the Pats.
His record against the Ravens over the last 5 years or so.
Clock management.

Here are some things to think about:

If Tomlin's record against bad teams is so horrific, he must have the best record against the best teams in the NFL with the possible exception of Belichick. The team seems to always play well against the best teams and nationally televised games. That has to count for something, and anyone that says otherwise is foolish.

The way Tomlin has gotten his injury-riddled teams to continue to improve and grind out wins is impressive. How many times has this team been crippled with injuries, yet Tomlin always gets the absolute most out of the team. That is one quality that defines great coaches.

Is Tomlin perfect? Of course not. He has some things he can improve on, but people that think he isn't a very good coach are just wrong.

Go talk to Eagle fans about Andy Reid and see who they would take as a coach.

Sean Payton's team has turned into a dumpster fire in recent years. He's a great offensive mind, but he hasn't been able to maintain excellence.

I hate Harbaugh, but he's good coach. To say that he is definitively better than Tomlin just seems silly.

Tom Coughlin.......please......... If the Giants played in the same division as the Steelers and Ravens he wouldn't have even gone to the playoffs in a stacked AFC in the years they won the super bowl. Sometimes you just have to look at stuff and see the obvious.

Let's see how things go. The roster has been completely turned over, and he needs to better game plan for the Patriots if they play again. I still think they can do great things going forward.

[Mojouw]

It would be great if all you had to do is look at records and stats and then say ok these say this and they don't lie. Sad thing is there is more than stats and wins and losses. Wins mean nothing if you don't get a ring ask the cheatriots about that. Win the Super Bowl and all is forgiven everything else is up for debate. While a QB is not the only reason for wins and loses it is arguably the biggest reason for most wins and loses. You can win without a franchise QB but chances are not likely. Therefore my reasoning as to why some coaches can do better with less. Harbaugh was my example and I stand by that opinion. I can't stand the way Harbaugh would bitch and whine when a call didn't go his way, but that being said he gets results.

I blame Tomlin for losing to lesser teams, but not to getting slow starts. He has always had the benefit of having Ben who I personally consider the best QB in the league. You can't say that Cowher had the same luxury so therefore that is why I cannot apply the same standard.

The Cheats Cowher beat a Tom Brady lead team on Oct 31st who came in on a 21 game win steak, with a rookie QB and followed it up with a win vs the eagles who also came in on an undefeated record. fwiw I used the afcc game to show his flows in game planning which kills me to no end. If you want to say that it's not him it's his coordinators then I say he is the one who chose them. I will give you that Butler was promised the job so maybe I can give some leeway, but over all it is his team or at least it should be. Also fwiw I try to use the cheats sparingly as I credit all their success to cheating, but again you have to go with a game plan that gives you the best chance of winning. Rushing 3 does not do that. Yes that is the year they were caught taping games and sternly warned (sheesh) by the NFL. The following year was when Spygate was brought to light.

Bringing up Blake brought up something else for me. Is it just me or does it seem like Tomlin has brought in free agent players who never see the field what is up with that? I will give credit for Green who at least saw some playing time but even at that he was not a major contributor at this point. Hopefully he will see the field a lot more this year.

I can concede your point on AB getting the stretch.

This is a great posting. I can totally see where you are coming from. I don't happen to agree, but I honestly can completely understand where you're coming from.

I have Tomlin in the top 10. Where do you have him?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[teegre]

You prove my point who has the better QB. Batch was not a horrible QB. He also has more experience than Mallet.

Insert the Antwan Blake rationale:

"Whose fault is it that Mallett was his only available backup???"

[Butch]

Insert the Antwan Blake rationale:

"Whose fault is it that Mallett was his only available backup???"

4th string...not 2nd not 3rd...4th not like you have a ton of talent when you get that far down the depth chart. Yet somehow he beat the Steelers.

[teegre]

4th string...not 2nd not 3rd...4th not like you have a ton of talent when you get that far down the depth chart. Yet somehow he beat the Steelers.

Yet, people will lynch Tomlin for not having enough depth and having to start Fumbles Toussaint in the playoffs.


SUMMATION:
People will rationalize and skew every fact to suit their purpose.

Case in point:
You focus on a 4th string QB beating an 8-8 Steelers team, while I focus on a third-rate QB (who lost to the Browns the week prior) beating the SuperBowl champions. :drink:

[Butch]

And in an incredible twist of fate, Andy Reid suffers from the same affliction that Bill Cowher suffered from....Lack of a truly great quarterback. Also, just like Cowher, Reid has always chosen to roll with lesser quarterbacks and try to play with more resources going into a stronger overall roster.

Tomlin is considered inferior to Cowher in every way by many fans. Now we are comparing a clone of Cowher that has a long history of coming up short in the playoffs in the form of Andy Reid.

I biggest points of contention against Tomlin seem to be:

His record against bad teams.
His record against the Pats.
His record against the Ravens over the last 5 years or so.
Clock management.

Here are some things to think about:

If Tomlin's record against bad teams is so horrific, he must have the best record against the best teams in the NFL with the possible exception of Belichick. The team seems to always play well against the best teams and nationally televised games. That has to count for something, and anyone that says otherwise is foolish.

The way Tomlin has gotten his injury-riddled teams to continue to improve and grind out wins is impressive. How many times has this team been crippled with injuries, yet Tomlin always gets the absolute most out of the team. That is one quality that defines great coaches.

Is Tomlin perfect? Of course not. He has some things he can improve on, but people that think he isn't a very good coach are just wrong.

Go talk to Eagle fans about Andy Reid and see who they would take as a coach.

Sean Payton's team has turned into a dumpster fire in recent years. He's a great offensive mind, but he hasn't been able to maintain excellence.

I hate Harbaugh, but he's good coach. To say that he is definitively better than Tomlin just seems silly.

Tom Coughlin.......please......... If the Giants played in the same division as the Steelers and Ravens he wouldn't have even gone to the playoffs in a stacked AFC in the years they won the super bowl. Sometimes you just have to look at stuff and see the obvious.

Let's see how things go. The roster has been completely turned over, and he needs to better game plan for the Patriots if they play again. I still think they can do great things going forward.

1. Let's see last year we played against the bungles and would have lost that game had it not been for a couple of boneheaded thugs doing what boneheaded thugs do best. The cost was pretty high and was the reason we lost to Denver the following week. FWIW I give the team and Tomlin props for the game against the broncos. They did play better than I expected considering the injuries. This year we played a game of field goals against the chiefs and were within a holding call of possible OT. Who knows how that would have turned out as all we were doing was kicking field goals and you leave the door open with those in OT.

2. Injuries - I for one do not have much faith in this team if Ben goes down. This year we lost Bell against the cheats and from what I can tell that threw a complete monkey wrench into the game plan.

3. Harbaugh - based solely on his record alone he is better 11 wins Harbaugh vs 10 win Tomlin. He has 2 more playoff wins against a shady brady led cheats team. He beat us with a 4th string QB, no suggs and in a year his team only won 5 games. Not so silly

4. Coughlin - While I am not a coughlin fan...how can you say so definitely that they would not have gone to the Super Bowl? That defense was pretty good in the years they won the Super Bowl. Not so obvious

5. This last statement I completely agree. I hope they go better than I expect. I have always said I would rather be lucky than good, because if you lucky you don't have to be good, but if you are good you still have to be lucky. I hope we get lucky and get the next great QB as Ben rides away into the sunset.

[Butch]

Yet, people will lynch Tomlin for not having enough depth and having to start Fumbles Toussaint in the playoffs.


SUMMATION:
People will rationalize and skew every fact to suit their purpose.

Case in point:
You focus on a 4th string QB beating an 8-8 Steelers team, while I focus on a third-rate QB (who lost to the Browns the week prior) beating the SuperBowl champions. :drink:

Summation to your summation...You are the one trying to scew what is being said here. When did I ever mention Fitz as being a reason to lynch Tomlin??? Never!!!

A 4th string QB who has very little success compared to a QB who was a starter for several years in Detroit and faired well while he was in Pittsburgh (as long as he wasn't injured). To be honest I never disliked Leftwich either, I thought both were decent backups, who did alright keeping things afloat until Ben returned.:juggle:

[teegre]

Summation to your summation...You are the one trying to scew what is being said here.

Sure

[Butch]

Now to answer both Mojouw and born to steel. I do not give grades in the way that most do. IMHO at this point in their careers I would rate Harbaugh ahead of Tomlin in getting more from less. Neither is perfect and for now Tomlin is our coach. I don't hate the guy I simply wish for more...Spoiled Steeler fan here.

I know what life is like when you are searching for that elusive diamond in the rough. We were blessed to get Ben when we did, I expected him to bring us 4 more rings no problem. Now that his time is dwindling I am not even sure he will ever see his 4th let alone win 2 more. For as good as Ben has been I can't for the life of me figure out how we have not been to and won more Super Bowls. I want a coach who does everything in his powers to give this team their best chance to win. All season long, or at least once we replaced jones with Harrison, the defense rushed the QB then in the game that meant a trip to the big show we only rush 3. That is not giving your team the best chance to win. Before that in the game with Landry as our QB we are down by 2 scores and at least one needs to be a td and on 4th down Tomlin elects to kick a LOOOONG fg as opposed to going for it and playing aggressive. I want aggressive, I have no problem going for 2 even if it costs us a game as it exudes confidence. I know I am probably the only Steeler fan in the universe who has this feeling, but hey that's what I want to see from my coach.

[pczach]

1. Let's see last year we played against the bungles and would have lost that game had it not been for a couple of boneheaded thugs doing what boneheaded thugs do best. The cost was pretty high and was the reason we lost to Denver the following week. FWIW I give the team and Tomlin props for the game against the broncos. They did play better than I expected considering the injuries. This year we played a game of field goals against the chiefs and were within a holding call of possible OT. Who knows how that would have turned out as all we were doing was kicking field goals and you leave the door open with those in OT.

2. Injuries - I for one do not have much faith in this team if Ben goes down. This year we lost Bell against the cheats and from what I can tell that threw a complete monkey wrench into the game plan.

3. Harbaugh - based solely on his record alone he is better 11 wins Harbaugh vs 10 win Tomlin. He has 2 more playoff wins against a shady brady led cheats team. He beat us with a 4th string QB, no suggs and in a year his team only won 5 games. Not so silly

4. Coughlin - While I am not a coughlin fan...how can you say so definitely that they would not have gone to the Super Bowl? That defense was pretty good in the years they won the Super Bowl. Not so obvious

5. This last statement I completely agree. I hope they go better than I expect. I have always said I would rather be lucky than good, because if you lucky you don't have to be good, but if you are good you still have to be lucky. I hope we get lucky and get the next great QB as Ben rides away into the sunset.




1. When I say Tomlin's record is great against very best teams, why do you only talk about two games in the playoffs when the team was decimated with injuries? Mike Tomlin has an excellent record against good teams in the regular season. If everyone is going to point out that he has a horrible record against the worst teams in the NFL or teams with a losing record, then I am for damn sure going to point out that he is beating somebody to have a record of 103-57. This is just common sense. He's beating somebody, and if he loses to bad teams, he's kicking the crap out of good teams from a percentage standpoint.

Also, here's great link that shows Tomlin's regular season record, playoff record, challenges made and the won/loss. Interesting stuff. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/TomlMi0.htm

2. Who does have faith in their team when their star quarterback goes down? And with that said, they've held their own when Ben goes down. Not having a great #2 quarterback is not something I'm going to punish Tomlin for. How is Tomlin supposed to magically pull an extra $10 million dollars out of his ass to pay a top notch, starter-quality backup quarterback. Surely you can understand that some things aren't in his control. A franchise doesn't spend a fortune on a good second quarterback until they have a team that is capable of going all the way, and the rest of the roster is stacked with depth. It would just be a waste to do that.

3. Everything you say is true, yet you don't even acknowledge the 5-11 season as being a problem. You also only list the head-to-head contests. How about Harbaughs won/loss record? It's 85-59 in one less season of coaching than Tomlin. He has what most people will tell you is the best personnel man in the business in Ozzie Newsome selecting his players. Why so many flame out years? Could it be coaching? Also, Tomlin and the Steelers are now completing the rebuild of the team since the 2011 season. The Steelers have not had a losing season in that time. That's pretty good coaching.

I'm not kidding myself. I know that having Ben at quarterback has certainly helped with all of it. I'm simply stating that you can't ignore his better numbers.

4. Coughlin played in an inferior league. Just answer these questions honestly:

Would the Giants have even made the playoffs in the stacked AFC in the years they made their run? My answer: I don't think so.

Even if they made the playoffs, would they have gotten through Brady's Pats, Manning's Colts, Ben's Steelers, and the Ravens to make it to a super bowl? My answer? No way in hell.

The Giants were a team that had Belichick's number. It happens. But if they play in the AFC, that would be just another year of missing the playoffs.

5. We have to see what happens when Ben hangs it up. But the roster is coming together nicely.

[polamalubeast]

3. Everything you say is true, yet you don't even acknowledge the 5-11 season as being a problem. You also only list the head-to-head contests. How about Harbaughs won/loss record? It's 85-59 in one less season of coaching than Tomlin. He has what most people will tell you is the best personnel man in the business in Ozzie Newsome selecting his players. Why so many flame out years? Could it be coaching? Also, Tomlin and the Steelers are now completing the rebuild of the team since the 2011 season. The Steelers have not had a losing season in that time. That's pretty good coaching.

I'm not kidding myself. I know that having Ben at quarterback has certainly helped with all of it. I'm simply stating that you can't ignore his better numbers.

4. Coughlin played in an inferior league. Just answer these questions honestly:

Would the Giants have even made the playoffs in the stacked AFC in the years they made their run? My answer: I don't think so.

Even if they made the playoffs, would they have gotten through Brady's Pats, Manning's Colts, Ben's Steelers, and the Ravens to make it to a super bowl? My answer? No way in hell.

The Giants were a team that had Belichick's number. It happens. But if they play in the AFC, that would be just another year of missing the playoffs.




For John Harbaugh, Ozzie has not been the same in the last few years, just watching the ravens roster right now, it's far from impressive.I can't name a super star for the Ravens right now.The steelers have 3 super stars in Ben, Bell and Brown.

For Tom Coughlin, between 2004 to 2012, the giants often had one of the hardest NFL schedules during the regular season.Also, just to watch the competition of their two Super Bowl, they beat three teams with at least 13 wins in each of his two Super Bowl.


And no one gave the Giants a chance in 2007.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1kI8dZwM1Y

[Born2Steel]

Now to answer both Mojouw and born to steel. I do not give grades in the way that most do. IMHO at this point in their careers I would rate Harbaugh ahead of Tomlin in getting more from less. Neither is perfect and for now Tomlin is our coach. I don't hate the guy I simply wish for more...Spoiled Steeler fan here.

I know what life is like when you are searching for that elusive diamond in the rough. We were blessed to get Ben when we did, I expected him to bring us 4 more rings no problem. Now that his time is dwindling I am not even sure he will ever see his 4th let alone win 2 more. For as good as Ben has been I can't for the life of me figure out how we have not been to and won more Super Bowls. I want a coach who does everything in his powers to give this team their best chance to win. All season long, or at least once we replaced jones with Harrison, the defense rushed the QB then in the game that meant a trip to the big show we only rush 3. That is not giving your team the best chance to win. Before that in the game with Landry as our QB we are down by 2 scores and at least one needs to be a td and on 4th down Tomlin elects to kick a LOOOONG fg as opposed to going for it and playing aggressive. I want aggressive, I have no problem going for 2 even if it costs us a game as it exudes confidence. I know I am probably the only Steeler fan in the universe who has this feeling, but hey that's what I want to see from my coach.

But the thread does not ask for you, or anyone, to compare Tomlin to any other coach. It merely asks what report card grade does Tomlin get after 10 years as the Steelers coach. 10 years, no losing seasons, top 5 in wins, 2 SB trips = A++. No caveat, no buts, no ifs. The man deserves to be graded on what HE did, HIS accomplishments. "Not enough wins vs this team or that team" is just noise.

[pczach]

For John Harbaugh, Ozzie has not been the same in the last few years, just watching the ravens roster right now, it's far from impressive.I can't name a super star for the Ravens right now.The steelers have 3 super stars in Ben, Bell and Brown.

For Tom Coughlin, between 2004 to 2012, the giants often had one of the hardest NFL schedules during the regular season.Also, just to watch the competition of their two Super Bowl, they beat three teams with at least 13 wins in each of his two Super Bowl.


And no one gave the Giants a chance in 2007.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1kI8dZwM1Y




So John Harbaugh can't win without dominating talent? Maybe he's not as a good a coach as many make him out to be.

Coughlin's teams played in the overrated NFC East. Every year the hype machines would say how great the Cowboys, the Eagles, and the Redskins were going to be......and they almost always sucked. Also, the whole point I'm making is that 9 wins wouldn't even get him in the playoffs in a good conference. You can't win the super bowl playing in the AFC and winning 9 games. It was routine in the AFC for a team to have 10 or 11 wins and not make the playoffs. Also, they got to play the one team from the AFC that they matched up well with in the Patriots. Sometimes the stars just align right for certain teams, but that doesn't mean they were great teams or that they had a great head coach.

[polamalubeast]

So John Harbaugh can't win without dominating talent? Maybe he's not as a good a coach as many make him out to be.

Coughlin's teams played in the overrated NFC East. Every year the hype machines would say how great the Cowboys, the Eagles, and the Redskins were going to be......and they almost always sucked. Also, the whole point I'm making is that 9 wins wouldn't even get him in the playoffs in a good conference. You can't win the super bowl playing in the AFC and winning 9 games. It was routine in the AFC for a team to have 10 or 11 wins and not make the playoffs. Also, they got to play the one team from the AFC that they matched up well with in the Patriots. Sometimes the stars just align right for certain teams, but that doesn't mean they were great teams or that they had a great head coach.


The 2012 Ravens were far from being a dominant team ....


For the Giants, in 2007 they were far better than the Titans who made the playoffs in the AFC.The NFC were not bad in 2007 with the Cowboys and Packers at 13-3 and they beat both teams on their field in the playoffs.

In 2011, the Giants were better than the Bengals with a rookie Andy Dalton who made the playoffs also at 9-7.The giants probably had the hardest nfl schedule in 2011 among the teams that made the playoffs.Also the NFC were very loaded in 2011 with 3 teams with at least 13 wins and they won against two of his teams in the playoffs on the road as well.

[st33lersguy]

How about the fact that Tomlin has responded better to losing great veteran players than Harbaugh. Harbaugh loses Ray Lewis and Ed Reed, and since he has been a sub .500 coach. His record got worse when they traded Ngata. Tomlin has lost leaders like James Farrior and franchise icon Hines Ward, another franchise icon in Troy Polamalu along with other veteran starters a lot of whom were pro bowlers such as Aaron Smith, Brett Keisel, Casey Hampton, Ryan Clark, Ike Taylor, Heath Miller among others. No problem, he just wins 10 games and advances farther in the playoffs the last 3 years with a lot of young guys drafted this decade, even when they are faced with adversity such as numerous injuries, numerous suspensions, or are put in a hole and meddling around .500 in November.

[polamalubeast]

How about the fact that Tomlin has responded better to losing great veteran players than Harbaugh. Harbaugh loses Ray Lewis and Ed Reed, and since he has been a sub .500 coach. His record got worse when they traded Ngata. Tomlin has lost leaders like James Farrior and franchise icon Hines Ward, another franchise icon in Troy Polamalu along with other veteran starters a lot of whom were pro bowlers such as Aaron Smith, Brett Keisel, Casey Hampton, Ryan Clark, Ike Taylor, Heath Miller among others. No problem, he just wins 10 games and advances farther in the playoffs the last 3 years with a lot of young guys drafted this decade, even when they are faced with adversity such as numerous injuries, numerous suspensions, or are put in a hole and meddling around .500 in November.


Yes, but the steelers did not win immediately when the veteran players retired or declined and the steelers still had Roethlisberger as QB.

But no doubt, Tomlin is great when the team have adversity, this is Tomlin's biggest strength.

[Butch]

1. When I say Tomlin's record is great against very best teams, why do you only talk about two games in the playoffs when the team was decimated with injuries? Mike Tomlin has an excellent record against good teams in the regular season. If everyone is going to point out that he has a horrible record against the worst teams in the NFL or teams with a losing record, then I am for damn sure going to point out that he is beating somebody to have a record of 103-57. This is just common sense. He's beating somebody, and if he loses to bad teams, he's kicking the crap out of good teams from a percentage standpoint.

Also, here's great link that shows Tomlin's regular season record, playoff record, challenges made and the won/loss. Interesting stuff. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/TomlMi0.htm

2. Who does have faith in their team when their star quarterback goes down? And with that said, they've held their own when Ben goes down. Not having a great #2 quarterback is not something I'm going to punish Tomlin for. How is Tomlin supposed to magically pull an extra $10 million dollars out of his ass to pay a top notch, starter-quality backup quarterback. Surely you can understand that some things aren't in his control. A franchise doesn't spend a fortune on a good second quarterback until they have a team that is capable of going all the way, and the rest of the roster is stacked with depth. It would just be a waste to do that.

3. Everything you say is true, yet you don't even acknowledge the 5-11 season as being a problem. You also only list the head-to-head contests. How about Harbaughs won/loss record? It's 85-59 in one less season of coaching than Tomlin. He has what most people will tell you is the best personnel man in the business in Ozzie Newsome selecting his players. Why so many flame out years? Could it be coaching? Also, Tomlin and the Steelers are now completing the rebuild of the team since the 2011 season. The Steelers have not had a losing season in that time. That's pretty good coaching.

I'm not kidding myself. I know that having Ben at quarterback has certainly helped with all of it. I'm simply stating that you can't ignore his better numbers.

4. Coughlin played in an inferior league. Just answer these questions honestly:

Would the Giants have even made the playoffs in the stacked AFC in the years they made their run? My answer: I don't think so.

Even if they made the playoffs, would they have gotten through Brady's Pats, Manning's Colts, Ben's Steelers, and the Ravens to make it to a super bowl? My answer? No way in hell.

The Giants were a team that had Belichick's number. It happens. But if they play in the AFC, that would be just another year of missing the playoffs.

5. We have to see what happens when Ben hangs it up. But the roster is coming together nicely.

1. Did you even read what I said or just read bungles part and make your comment? I gave Tomlin credit for the game in Denver oh btw when the team was injured. Here is another point AB wasn't injured until the boneheaded thugs pulled their shenanigans. How bout the Tebow game what happened there? Kicking the crap out of teams??? I am not sure what team you are watching but rarely do we blow teams out. Hell in the playoff game against the chiefs we kicked nothing but fg's and in the end were saved by a holding call and Ben being clutch on 3rd down. What were our key injuries that game? How does a team lose to Tebow?

2. Yes I agree no team pays backups therefore you get what you get. But if you are going to mention how well we do with injuries then you have to acknowledge the times when we lose to teams with their backup QBs. Say for instance the 5-11 ravens or lest we forget the Tebow led broncos in the playoffs. How does anyone lose to Tebow??? Is that what great coaches with franchise QBs do in the playoffs?

3. You don't think losing to a 5-11 team is cause for concern, you have your franchise QB and yet you still lose to that team? The sad thing is these are not isolated games they seem to happen on a regular basis with Tomlin led teams. Not having a losing season is as much about Ben as it is anything else. Lets see what he does when he doesn't have Ben.

4. This is nothing but opinions. I use Mojouw's quote here..."If my aunt had balls she would be my uncle".

5. Yes we will and just keep in mind it was a very LOOOOOONG time before we got Ben. I pray his successor is not as long in getting here.

[pczach]

1. Did you even read what I said or just read bungles part and make your comment? I gave Tomlin credit for the game in Denver oh btw when the team was injured. Here is another point AB wasn't injured until the boneheaded thugs pulled their shenanigans. How bout the Tebow game what happened there? Kicking the crap out of teams??? I am not sure what team you are watching but rarely do we blow teams out. Hell in the playoff game against the chiefs we kicked nothing but fg's and in the end were saved by a holding call and Ben being clutch on 3rd down. What were our key injuries that game? How does a team lose to Tebow?

2. Yes I agree no team pays backups therefore you get what you get. But if you are going to mention how well we do with injuries then you have to acknowledge the times when we lose to teams with their backup QBs. Say for instance the 5-11 ravens or lest we forget the Tebow led broncos in the playoffs. How does anyone lose to Tebow??? Is that what great coaches with franchise QBs do in the playoffs?

3. You don't think losing to a 5-11 team is cause for concern, you have your franchise QB and yet you still lose to that team? The sad thing is these are not isolated games they seem to happen on a regular basis with Tomlin led teams. Not having a losing season is as much about Ben as it is anything else. Lets see what he does when he doesn't have Ben.

4. This is nothing but opinions. I use Mojouw's quote here..."If my aunt had balls she would be my uncle".

5. Yes we will and just keep in mind it was a very LOOOOOONG time before we got Ben. I pray his successor is not as long in getting here.



1. I read it just fine. You're the one that didn't respond to what I wrote. You failed to address his winning percentage against good teams or teams with winning records. You only talked about a few games. And who mentioned anything about blowing teams out? Not me. Again, address how it is that Tomlin leads his teams to victory so often against teams with winning records if he is such a bad coach.

2. I get it. You don't agree, so Harbaugh is still a better coach even though they are in the same division, play almost identical schedules, play against each other twice a year, and Tomlin has a superior record. Got it.

3. Again, instead of addressing the entire issue at hand, you talk about one game against the Ravens. The Steelers were in the playoffs, the Ravens were home watching on tv.

4. You think Coughlin is better than Tomlin. I get that. Yet by everything you have stated in all your posts, if Tomlin had coached the Steelers to Coughlin's won-loss record and struggled every single regular season, and missed the playoffs as much as Tom Coughlin did with a franchise quarterback.....you would have a lynch mob waiting for Tomlin. Do you even get that part of your own argument?

5. We both agree that hopefully the next great Steelers quarterback comes very soon after Ben retires.

We'll have to agree to disagree about Tomlin as a coach.

[st33lersguy]

3. You don't think losing to a 5-11 team is cause for concern, you have your franchise QB and yet you still lose to that team?

But Harbaugh's history of losing to teams 5-11 or worse somehow gets ignored.


2010: The Ravens lose to the 4-12 Bengals. If they win this game, they win the division and a first round bye, and they get to host the Steelers in the divisional round that year
2011: The Ravens lose to the 5-11 Jaguars. Blaine Gabbert, one of the worst starting NFL QBs to play during this millennium was the starting QB
2012: The Ravens lose to the 4-12 Eagles and their "Dream Team"
2013: The Ravens lose to the 4-12 Browns. If they win this game, they get a playoff spot that year
2015: The Ravens lose to the 3-13 Browns at home and the 5-11 49ers
2016: The Ravens lose to the 5-11 Jets, a team that seemed even worse than that

How do you lose a game to Blaine Gabbert? How do you let that Jets team last year that got blown out in so many games beat you? How do you lose to the 3-13 Browns at home?

Yes I know Tomlin loses to crap teams, I've faulted him for it many times, but we can't trash Tomlin for losing to garbage teams while Harbaugh who is deemed a better coach gets a free pass for it

[Butch]

1. I read it just fine. You're the one that didn't respond to what I wrote. You failed to address his winning percentage against good teams or teams with winning records. You only talked about a few games. And who mentioned anything about blowing teams out? Not me. Again, address how it is that Tomlin leads his teams to victory so often against teams with winning records if he is such a bad coach.

2. I get it. You don't agree, so Harbaugh is still a better coach even though they are in the same division, play almost identical schedules, play against each other twice a year, and Tomlin has a superior record. Got it.

3. Again, instead of addressing the entire issue at hand, you talk about one game against the Ravens. The Steelers were in the playoffs, the Ravens were home watching on tv.

4. You think Coughlin is better than Tomlin. I get that. Yet by everything you have stated in all your posts, if Tomlin had coached the Steelers to Coughlin's won-loss record and struggled every single regular season, and missed the playoffs as much as Tom Coughlin did with a franchise quarterback.....you would have a lynch mob waiting for Tomlin. Do you even get that part of your own argument?

5. We both agree that hopefully the next great Steelers quarterback comes very soon after Ben retires.

We'll have to agree to disagree about Tomlin as a coach.

Tomlin does not have a superior record their head to head record is damn near a tie, but if you want to nit pick Tomlin is down 1 in the race. Harbaugh has attained that advantage with Flacco as his QB. He beat us with a 4th string QB and we had Ben that team was 5-11. The only thing about that record that stands out to me is that one of those 5 wins was an absolute embarrassment of the Steelers late in the season.

I do not consider Coughlin a better coach I simply use him as another example of a coach who can game plan against the cheats and win. You try to minimize his accomplishments by stating your opinion that if he was in the AFC he would not even make the playoffs. I called Bullshit and I stand by that opinion.

[st33lersguy]

Tomlin does not have a superior record their head to head record is damn near a tie, but if you want to nit pick Tomlin is down 1 in the race. Harbaugh has attained that advantage with Flacco as his QB. He beat us with a 4th string QB and we had Ben that team was 5-11. The only thing about that record that stands out to me is that one of those 5 wins was an absolute embarrassment of the Steelers late in the season.


How many more times are you going to repeat the "Tomlin lost to a 5-11 team starting a 4th string QB"? Just curious

[Butch]

But Harbaugh's history of losing to teams 5-11 or worse somehow gets ignored.



How do you lose a game to Blaine Gabbert? How do you let that Jets team last year that got blown out in so many games beat you? How do you lose to the 3-13 Browns at home?

Yes I know Tomlin loses to crap teams, I've faulted him for it many times, but we can't trash Tomlin for losing to garbage teams while Harbaugh who is deemed a better coach gets a free pass for it

The point on Harbaugh is that he has done more with less, not that he never loses to lesser teams. Look at their QB and tell me how you would rather have him than Ben. BTW that same team snapped a 4 game losing streak against the Steelers this past year when they beat us 21-14. Wouldn't it be nice to see the superior Tomlin lead this team to victory over a heated rival when they are down.

How does Tomlin who has Ben at the helm get blown out to the dolphins this past year? Or how bout that nice showing against the eagles? The Steelers damn near lost to the browns this past year as well, getting the lead early and the browns somehow found a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in OT no less and at Heinz field as well.

[st33lersguy]

The point on Harbaugh is that he has done more with less, not that he never loses to lesser teams. Look at their QB and tell me how you would rather have him than Ben. BTW that same team snapped a 4 game losing streak against the Steelers this past year when they beat us 21-14. Wouldn't it be nice to see the superior Tomlin lead this team to victory over a heated rival when they are down.

How does Tomlin who has Ben at the helm get blown out to the dolphins this past year? Or how bout that nice showing against the eagles? The Steelers damn near lost to the browns this past year as well, getting the lead early and the browns somehow found a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in OT no less and at Heinz field as well.

The Eagles game was an embarrassment, but the Miami game they played with Ben effected by injury for most of the half on the road against a team they would play (and dominate in the playoffs). They did almost lose to the Browns too, in a meaningless week 17 that neither Ben, nor Bell, nor AB played in.

Plus Tomlin has gotten the most out of this team when they weren't at full strength. Need I remind you how they went 3-1 in 2010 during Ben's suspension? Or how about all the injuries and suspensions that occurred in 2015? No Pouncey, Bell played in 6 games, Mike Vick/Landry Jones started 4 game, and by the time the playoffs arrived, they were down to their 3rd string RB. You think Tomlin didn't get the most out of that team? You think Tomlin didn't get the most out of last year's team to turn a 4-5 team into a team going to the AFC Championship game without his no. 2 WR or defensive captain while leading an overall young and inexperienced team?

[pczach]

Tomlin does not have a superior record their head to head record is damn near a tie, but if you want to nit pick Tomlin is down 1 in the race. Harbaugh has attained that advantage with Flacco as his QB. He beat us with a 4th string QB and we had Ben that team was 5-11. The only thing about that record that stands out to me is that one of those 5 wins was an absolute embarrassment of the Steelers late in the season.

I do not consider Coughlin a better coach I simply use him as another example of a coach who can game plan against the cheats and win. You try to minimize his accomplishments by stating your opinion that if he was in the AFC he would not even make the playoffs. I called Bullshit and I stand by that opinion.


Again, you're dodging the question. I'm not talking about the head-to-head record. I'm talking about Tomlin's record against teams with winning records over his entire career in Pittsburgh.

Stop ignoring my points just to make your one point over and over. I'm trying to have conversation with you, but I can't do that when you refuse to acknowledge anything I say or ignore points that hurt your argument. Stop telling me I'm not reading your posts when it is you that is dancing around and ignoring direct questions.

Sorry you don't have any answers so you have to call "Bullshit" to protect yourself.

Do you want to know what real "bullshit" is? That you have no reply at all and totally dismiss these quotes from me:


1. When I say Tomlin's record is great against very best teams, why do you only talk about two games in the playoffs when the team was decimated with injuries? Mike Tomlin has an excellent record against good teams in the regular season. If everyone is going to point out that he has a horrible record against the worst teams in the NFL or teams with a losing record, then I am for damn sure going to point out that he is beating somebody to have a record of 103-57. This is just common sense. He's beating somebody, and if he loses to bad teams, he's kicking the crap out of good teams from a percentage standpoint.



1. I read it just fine. You're the one that didn't respond to what I wrote. You failed to address his winning percentage against good teams or teams with winning records. You only talked about a few games. And who mentioned anything about blowing teams out? Not me. Again, address how it is that Tomlin leads his teams to victory so often against teams with winning records if he is such a bad coach.


That's bullshit

- - - Updated - - -


How many more times are you going to repeat the "Tomlin lost to a 5-11 team starting a 4th string QB"? Just curious


I guess he's going to keep saying it and dodge addressing questions that he doesn't want to answer until everyone goes away with a different opinion than his.

[pczach]

The point on Harbaugh is that he has done more with less, not that he never loses to lesser teams. Look at their QB and tell me how you would rather have him than Ben. BTW that same team snapped a 4 game losing streak against the Steelers this past year when they beat us 21-14. Wouldn't it be nice to see the superior Tomlin lead this team to victory over a heated rival when they are down.

How does Tomlin who has Ben at the helm get blown out to the dolphins this past year? Or how bout that nice showing against the eagles? The Steelers damn near lost to the browns this past year as well, getting the lead early and the browns somehow found a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in OT no less and at Heinz field as well.


Done more with less?

Do you mean less like Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Bart Scott, Terrell Suggs, Chris McAlister, Todd Heap, Samari Rolle, Haloti Ngata, Joe Flacco, Trevor Pryce, Matt Stover, Domonique Foxworth, Marshal Yanda, Le'Ron McClain, Willis McGahee, Derrick Mason, Lorenzo Neal, Ray Rice, Matt Birk, Donte Stallworth, Corey Redding, Dawan Landry, Paul Kruger, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Dennis Pitta, Brendon Ayanbadejo, Anquan Boldin, Torey Smith, Tyrod Taylor, Ricky Williams, C.J. Moseley, Steve Smith, Mike Wallace, Eric Weddle, Ben Watson, Justin Tucker, Brandon Carr, Danny Woodhead, Elvis Dumervil, Timmy Jernigan, Matt Elam, Owen Daniels, Dallas Clark, Rolando McClain, Kelechi Osemele, and a shitload of quality starters and role players since he took over in Baltimore.

Is that what you meant by doing more with less?

For many years the Ravens were considered to have the strongest roster in the NFL. One of, if not the best defense in football. Some of the best offensive lines in football. A 2000 yard running back. The best kickers in football. Some of the best return men in football.

Care to elaborate?......or should I just call "bullshit" right now?

[Butch]

Done more with less?

Do you mean less like Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Bart Scott, Terrell Suggs, Chris McAlister, Jamal Lewis, Todd Heap, Jonathan Ogden, Samari Rolle, Deion Sanders, Haloti Ngata, Steve McNair, Trevor Pryce, Matt Stover, Marshal Yanda, Le'Ron McClain, Willis McGahee, Lorenzo Neal, Ray Rice, Matt Birk, Paul Kruger, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Dennis Pitta, Anquan Boldin, Torey Smith, Tyrod Taylor, Ricky Williams, C.J. Moseley, Steve Smith, Mike Wallace, Eric Weddle, Ben Watson, Justin Tucker, Brandon Carr, Danny Woodhead, Elvis Dumervil, Timmy Jernigan, Matt Elam, Owen Daniels, Dallas Clark, Rolando McClain, Kelechi Osemele, and a shitload of quality starters and role players since he took over in Baltimore.

Is that what you meant by doing more with less?

For many years the Ravens were considered to have the strongest roster in the NFL. One of, if not the best defense in football. Some of the best offensive lines in football. A 2000 yard running back. The best kickers in football. Some of the best return men in football.

Care to elaborate?......or should I just call "bullshit" right now?

That's a pretty good list you have there. How many of those names never even played for Harbaugh? Interesting that the ONE QB on that list never played for Harbaugh. For the record he's not the only one on that list who never even played for Harbaugh. Interesting how Mike Wallace makes that list, not bad for a wr who won't fight for a ball to save his life. I'll give you credit he did have a pretty good 1st game against us this past year. Finally the Steelers had just as many big name players but again the one who tips the scales is the franchise QB, which is noticeably missing from your list. Unless of course you count Steve McNair who never played for Harbaugh.

Love that you mention how they had a 2,000 yard RB. Here are a few GREAT RBs who never won a Super Bowl...Sayers, Sanders, Simpson, Campbell, Dickerson, Peterson. How many of those were THE best in the league when they played?

Many of those years when the ravens had a strong defense the Steelers did too. Difference was we had Ben they had Flacco. This is what I mean when I say More with less. Maybe you disagree and think Flacco is an equal or better QB than Ben. I would have a hard time going there but hey to each his own. Or maybe you think it is more important to have Great RBs, WRs, Offensive lines or is it the Defense?

I also like the way you use the Bullshit statement when what it was used for was to call out your assumption that if Coughlin played in the AFC he would not make the Super Bowl. That is based only on your very own opinion and has absolutely no basis in fact what so ever.

[Mojouw]

http://i.imgur.com/5s4kkZ1.gif

[Butch]

Again, you're dodging the question. I'm not talking about the head-to-head record. I'm talking about Tomlin's record against teams with winning records over his entire career in Pittsburgh.

Stop ignoring my points just to make your one point over and over. I'm trying to have conversation with you, but I can't do that when you refuse to acknowledge anything I say or ignore points that hurt your argument. Stop telling me I'm not reading your posts when it is you that is dancing around and ignoring direct questions.

Sorry you don't have any answers so you have to call "Bullshit" to protect yourself.

Do you want to know what real "bullshit" is? That you have no reply at all and totally dismiss these quotes from me:





That's bullshit

- - - Updated - - -




I guess he's going to keep saying it and dodge addressing questions that he doesn't want to answer until everyone goes away with a different opinion than his.

Here is a good example of misleading stats teams with a winning record. On any given year the Jets, Dolphins or any other team can have a winning record does that mean they are a Great team? Hell a team that is better than 500 when you play them has a winning record. So I chose to look at the head to head match up between Tomlin (with Ben) and Harbaugh (with Flacco) and say that is a truer stat. Do you consider Flacco an elite QB? Do you consider Ben an Elite QB? I don't consider Flacco elite, and I do consider Ben elite.

No bullshit is when you try to pass your opinion off as fact. Bullshit is when you assume that Coughlin could not win in the AFC and have nothing factual to back it up.

Do I really have to point out every game to make a point? I figured I would give you a few would be enough. Who was injured when we played the cheats this year? FWIW I gave credit to Tomlin for having his team mostly ready to play against the broncos in a game when players were injured, but tell me again how I am the one ignoring what you say. The loss this year to the cheats when we only rushed 3 reminds me of another Tomlin game. It was a few years back against the Browns. The game plan that day was to throw the ball against a team that was dead last vs the run, never mind that the game was played in high gusting winds. IDK I guess I expect the coach to give the team the best chances to win a game not play into the strength of the team we are playing.

[teegre]

Here is a good example of misleading stats teams with a winning record. On any given year the Jets, Dolphins or any other team can have a winning record does that mean they are a Great team? Hell a team that is better than 500 when you play them has a winning record.

I've been saying that for years... or, at least, since Kaloby posted his "Tomlin loses to sub .500 teams" tweet.

For example, in 2015, Kaloby counted the Chiefs, who made the playoffs at 11-5, as a sub .500 team, because they happened to have a losing record when the beat the Steelers. Heck, after Week 1, half of the entire league is sub .500. Stats can lie.

Anyway, at that time, I went through and posted all of the teams that weren't "actually" sub .500 teams, and basically, it's not as bad as Kaloby would have you believe.

[Mojouw]

I've been saying that for years... or, at least, since Kaloby posted his "Tomlin loses to sub .500 teams" tweet.

For example, in 2015, Kaloby counted the Chiefs, who made the playoffs at 11-5, as a sub .500 team, because they happened to have a losing record when the beat the Steelers. Heck, after Week 1, half of the entire league is sub .500. Stats can lie.

Anyway, at that time, I went through and posted all of the teams that weren't "actually" sub .500 teams, and basically, it's not as bad as Kaloby would have you believe.

Some solid points are being brought out here - on all sides. I think, Teegre's last post is kinda my biggest pet-peeve about sports talk in general. Things just get said, that are not always well supported by facts/data, and then they become "facts" that have a power all their own.

That and the idea that we as fans often hold our favorite team to an arbitrary standard, not a realistic one compared to the comparison with other teams. Take those two together and that is how you get that anything less than 4 championships by now with Big Ben and the supporting cast is a coaching/management failure.

The hottest of "hot takes!"

[pczach]

That's a pretty good list you have there. How many of those names never even played for Harbaugh? Interesting that the ONE QB on that list never played for Harbaugh. For the record he's not the only one on that list who never even played for Harbaugh. Interesting how Mike Wallace makes that list, not bad for a wr who won't fight for a ball to save his life. I'll give you credit he did have a pretty good 1st game against us this past year. Finally the Steelers had just as many big name players but again the one who tips the scales is the franchise QB, which is noticeably missing from your list. Unless of course you count Steve McNair who never played for Harbaugh.

Love that you mention how they had a 2,000 yard RB. Here are a few GREAT RBs who never won a Super Bowl...Sayers, Sanders, Simpson, Campbell, Dickerson, Peterson. How many of those were THE best in the league when they played?

Many of those years when the ravens had a strong defense the Steelers did too. Difference was we had Ben they had Flacco. This is what I mean when I say More with less. Maybe you disagree and think Flacco is an equal or better QB than Ben. I would have a hard time going there but hey to each his own. Or maybe you think it is more important to have Great RBs, WRs, Offensive lines or is it the Defense?

I also like the way you use the Bullshit statement when what it was used for was to call out your assumption that if Coughlin played in the AFC he would not make the Super Bowl. That is based only on your very own opinion and has absolutely no basis in fact what so ever.


You're right about Steve McNair, Jamal Lewis, Deion Sanders and Jonathan Ogden never played for Harbaugh. When doing my search I punched in 2005 by accident instead of 2008. My bad on those players.

All the rest played for him, and there are obviously a bunch more quality guys to list that I didn't like Flacco. My point is that he had a ton of talent that played for him. You made the statement that he did more with less. I don't think that's the case at all. He has had gobs of talent, but hasn't handled retooling the roster the last few years as well as Mike Tomlin has. Tomlin hasn't had a losing record while turning over the entire roster, Harbaugh has and continues to struggle. Maybe that's not all him, maybe they're not getting players that are talented enough for him, but that is also an opinion.

I do think Ben is a better player than Flacco. I just think that Flacco is a very good player that is in the next tier down from Ben.

The only reason I used the "bullshit" line is because you dropped it on me and I was busting your balls. That's why I put it in quotes the first couple times I used it. I just don't understand why you are "calling bullshit" about an opinion on Tom Coughlin. There is no proof because it is an opinion on what would have happened if he played in the AFC. Those Giant teams never even make the super bowl if they had to go through Manning, Ben, Brady, or the Ravens in the AFC. I truly believe that. They made the super bowl and beat who was in front of them in the NFC, and they match up well with the Pats. I'm not denying it happened. They won a couple super bowls. I'm explaining why I don't think those were great teams or well coached teams when comparing Coughlin to Tomlin.

[pczach]

Here is a good example of misleading stats teams with a winning record. On any given year the Jets, Dolphins or any other team can have a winning record does that mean they are a Great team? Hell a team that is better than 500 when you play them has a winning record. So I chose to look at the head to head match up between Tomlin (with Ben) and Harbaugh (with Flacco) and say that is a truer stat. Do you consider Flacco an elite QB? Do you consider Ben an Elite QB? I don't consider Flacco elite, and I do consider Ben elite.

No bullshit is when you try to pass your opinion off as fact. Bullshit is when you assume that Coughlin could not win in the AFC and have nothing factual to back it up.

Do I really have to point out every game to make a point? I figured I would give you a few would be enough. Who was injured when we played the cheats this year? FWIW I gave credit to Tomlin for having his team mostly ready to play against the broncos in a game when players were injured, but tell me again how I am the one ignoring what you say. The loss this year to the cheats when we only rushed 3 reminds me of another Tomlin game. It was a few years back against the Browns. The game plan that day was to throw the ball against a team that was dead last vs the run, never mind that the game was played in high gusting winds. IDK I guess I expect the coach to give the team the best chances to win a game not play into the strength of the team we are playing.


Here we go with the "bullshit" again. Would you please stop about Tom Coughlin. I know it's an opinion....OK. Last time I checked it's OK to give an opinion on something.

I think that many people are overreacting to Tomlin losing to bad teams, just the way people want to give too much credit to beating teams with winning records. I think you and I are closer to agreeing than you may believe about a few issues. Stats don't always tell the whole truth. Raw numbers don't tell the whole story.

They whole point is that I believe most fans are not able to step back and fairly judge their head coach because too much of their heart is involved. Maybe I'm the other way, and I'm giving Tomlin too much credit....but I don't think so. I'm trying to evaluate his coaching based on his record, how he handles adversity, the talent level of the team, and a million other factors that are difficult to explain without writing 20 paragraphs to explain.

[pczach]

Some solid points are being brought out here - on all sides. I think, Teegre's last post is kinda my biggest pet-peeve about sports talk in general. Things just get said, that are not always well supported by facts/data, and then they become "facts" that have a power all their own.

That and the idea that we as fans often hold our favorite team to an arbitrary standard, not a realistic one compared to the comparison with other teams. Take those two together and that is how you get that anything less than 4 championships by now with Big Ben and the supporting cast is a coaching/management failure.



The hottest of "hot takes!"


Great post.

You and teegre are definitely on to something. I think that fans are too hard on their coaches and that they expect too much. As a guy who played sports, I realize how hard it is to win a championship....even when you have the best team on paper. Things don't work that way in real life or in sports. Nothing is guaranteed, and everything accomplished is hard.

Throw in dealing with injuries, the salary cap, distractions within the team, bad officiating, and a million other things and there are so many things that can pull the rug right out from under you as a coach.

Of course I wish Tomlin would have won two more super bowls with Ben, but it didn't happen for a bunch of reasons that mostly weren't his fault. I think he has handled the rebuilding of this team masterfully. Yes, he has lost to some awful teams. Yes, he needs to game plan better against the Pats. I don't think those criticisms can be denied. But he also wins a lot of games and finds a way to rally the team when things look the darkest. He's not perfect, but he's good enough if he still has it in his heart to take his ego out of it and be able to adjust to what teams are doing to you. Sometimes you have to go out of your comfort zone schematically to match up against a particular opponent.

Let's hope Ben plays at least a couple more years, and Tomlin finds a way to get them to another championship or two. It's hard, but it can be done.

[Mr Rooney]

C-

Refusal to make in game adjustments.
Not sure if he brings any value with X's ans O's and calling plays.
One one game plan no flexibility attitude really kill our team.
Horrible at challenging not challenging .
Time management ehhh...
PLAYING DOWN TO BAD TEAMS
Great at finding talent and keeping a steady ship during adversity.

Never do i say mannn Mike Tomlin really out smarted that team .

Im not a big fan of Tomlin, I would say it has been festering for 4 years now.

Now I will duck for cover for expressing me opinion . lol

dont duck for cover .. i think you nailed it .. dead on ..