Steelers could lose starting cornerback [Archive]

AtlantaDan

03-06-2017, 12:23 PM

The Steelers could easily get a good corner in round 4 of this deep class.

Starting a rookie in game one to replace Cockrell at the same time another rookie will presumably be replacing Gay as the slot corner would be a big gamble unless the coaches are really down on Cockrell as well as Gay.

Ray Fittipaldo with the P-G says the low tender offer to Cockrell indicates the Steelers do not see Cockrell as the long term solution to their CB problems

Judging by the original round tender, the Steelers don't seem too concerned about losing Cockrell....Are they unhappy with his performance this past year? Or are they just betting that there is no market for him?

Ray Fittipaldo
Probably a little bit of both. They'd like to have him back at less than $ 2 million for next season, but they don't value him at much more than that. Perhaps that's why we're hearing about the Steelers and Kirkpatrick. Both are outside CBs. The original round tender on Cockrell is confirmation on what I wrote in the days after the AFC title game. The Steelers have to change things up with their pass defense if they ever want to beat the Patriots. The way you do that is by throwing in some press man coverage schemes every once in a while. They need to find players that can do that well. Cockrell was OK for the way they've played the past two years but probably not if they're going to make some changes, which it seems like they're going to do.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2017/03/06/Ray-Fittipaldo-Steelers-chat-3-6-17/stories/201703060119

BlackAndGold

03-06-2017, 12:32 PM

If some team was to sign Cockrell, I actually think they'll look to sign Revis as a stop gap...

steelreserve

03-06-2017, 01:32 PM

The Steelers could easily get a good corner in round 4 of this deep class.

We could get one good corner, and we'd be down two of our three starters. Unless they're counting on Golson, which I'm not.

Not to mention, the same kind of thing is said about some position every year, but what it really means is "all the other teams know this too, so twice as many corners as usual get drafted early, so you can get a good corner with your first-round pick, or a decent corner with a big question mark at the end of Round 2, and after that it's business as usual, so pretty much unless you use a late first-round or early second-round pick, you're getting the same kind of talent you would anyway, and it's only for one guy at one spot in the draft that you'll have that difference, not multiple guys at multiple spots."

At any rate, Cock is far from an ideal CB, but he's at least not horrible. I hope they don't lose him over something silly like trying to sneak him in for a million bucks less, because that could create way more problems than the million bucks would solve.

But, do I think someone's going to match the offer plus give a draft pick, even a fourth-rounder? Probably not. Draft picks are insanely overvalued leading up to the draft, so we may have managed to pull a fast one.

Steeldude

03-06-2017, 03:10 PM

The Steelers could easily get a good corner in round 4 of this deep class.

Besides Gay who have the Steelers been successful with in regards to drafting CBs? The jury is still out on Burns. Cockrell is the best CB on the roster at the moment.

Born2Steel

03-06-2017, 03:24 PM

Just to bring things into focus a bit. With this 'play', we get Cockrell at a low price, or we get an additional draft pick.

Last season our defense was made up of rookies, and 2-3 year players for the most part. Also Heyward missed significant time. 30+ year olds Harrison, Timmons, and Mitchell. This team still managed a 9 game win streak all the way to the AFCCG. I think we can trust the FO and coaches to know what they're doing. There is a plan and these moves are part of a bigger picture. Let this play out.

Mojouw

03-06-2017, 04:13 PM

hawaiiansteeler

03-06-2017, 07:55 PM

Cockrell is the best CB on the roster at the moment.

which is why I believe the Steelers will sign a CB in free agency this offseason and spend a premium draft pick on the CB position.

BurghBoy412

03-06-2017, 08:13 PM

Cockrell is awful! IMO 4th rounder would be a bargain for a below average player like him.

Steel Peon

03-06-2017, 11:00 PM

Cockrell played no better this year than last, so losing him will not equate to much IMO.

86WARD

03-07-2017, 05:42 AM

Could be just tendering him there to see if anyone sets the market for Cockring. If the market is favorable, they sign him, if not, they let him walk and get a 6th pick in 4 rounds. Win/win.

teegre

03-07-2017, 06:30 AM

Could be just tendering him there to see if anyone sets the market for Cockring. If the market is favorable, they sign him, if not, they let him walk and get a 6th pick in 4 rounds. Win/win.

Bingo!!! They've done that in the past (let another team do the negotiations for them, and if the Steelers don't like the deal, they take the pick instead.)

Speaking of an extra pick...

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but if the Steelers have two R3 picks and two R4 picks, they almost have to trade their R2 pick (to acquire an extra R1 pick in 2018). This draft is so deep at OLB and CB, they could use the two extra picks in order to double dip at both positions.

R1: Reddick, ILB
R2: (traded)
R3: OLB
R3: CB
R4: CB
R4: OLB

steelreserve

03-07-2017, 10:17 AM

Here is what gets me about fan reaction (including my own) - it doesn't make much sense.

Oh NO! Only a 4th round tender! We could lose one of our starting CB's!!! What are they thinking???!!!

Oh NO! Our Starting CBs are the same!!! They are terrible!!!! Totally the reason we won't win another SB!!! What are they thinking???!!!

I don't think it's that bad. Last season's secondary was shaky but at least barely passable. Not quite the laughingstock it was the season before.

Getting rid of Blake was a huge improvement by itself. It looks like Gay has finally hit the wall, so we have to replace him now too or suck. Cockrell is no star, but he did an OK job. At the very least I think it'd be good to have him back for depth.

No matter what, we're going to have to add a CB somehow, which means we'll most likely draft one and/or sign whoever's left for cheap after the main FA bonanza is over.

Psycho Ward 86

03-07-2017, 01:05 PM

Bingo!!! They've done that in the past (let another team do the negotiations for them, and if the Steelers don't like the deal, they take the pick instead.)

Speaking of an extra pick...

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but if the Steelers have two R3 picks and two R4 picks, they almost have to trade their R2 pick (to acquire an extra R1 pick in 2018). This draft is so deep at OLB and CB, they could use the two extra picks in order to double dip at both positions.

R1: Reddick, ILB
R2: (traded)
R3: OLB
R3: CB
R4: CB
R4: OLB

Im trying to understand your angle here since you keep throwing out this idea of getting an extra 1st for next season. Heres a trade value chart: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/draft/draft-trade-chart/

Every chart ive ever seen is similiar to this. From where our 2nd round pick currently is, even the 32nd overall pick is double the value of the 61st pick. In what scenario would someone be dumb enough to make this trade? Typically I feel like these kinds of trades only happen in the extremely early parts of the 1st round where the bottom feeders get truly desperate for a player theyre locked onto. Im on board with the idea, i just dont see how this is supposed to unfold

teegre

03-07-2017, 02:24 PM

Im trying to understand your angle here since you keep throwing out this idea of getting an extra 1st for next season. Heres a trade value chart: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/draft/draft-trade-chart/

Every chart ive ever seen is similiar to this. From where our 2nd round pick currently is, even the 32nd overall pick is double the value of the 61st pick. In what scenario would someone be dumb enough to make this trade? Typically I feel like these kinds of trades only happen in the extremely early parts of the 1st round where the bottom feeders get truly desperate for a player theyre locked onto. Im on board with the idea, i just dont see how this is supposed to unfold

First of all, allow me to clarify that a trade is unlikely.

But... let's pretend it were to indeed come to fruition.

Draft picks work on an N = N+1 formula. Waiting a year to make a pick lessens its value, and thus a 2017 R2 pick is equal to a 2018 R1 pick.

Now, normally this type of thing occurs when a player drops... and some team falls in love with that player. In the vast majority of the trades that occur, teams will swap draft picks in the same draft.

For example, Debo McFriday is sliding deep into R2. The Jets do not pick until 70. They swap the 70th with the Steelers (who have pick 62) and the Steelers pick up a R4 pick. That is the way that it normally works, because most teams do not want to wait a year to recoup the spoils of their trade (They want their player NOW!!!).

But... every so often, a team wants their cake and to be able to eat it, too.

Case in point:
In 2013, the Steelers wanted both Landry Jones AND Shamarko Thomas. The Steelers acquired an extra R4 pick to the Browns, and in return the Browns got the Steelers' 2014 R3 pick, which was a full round higher, but a year later (N= N+1).

Now... what I am hoping, is that a team like the Bears or Jets falls in love with a QB, and that there is a run on QBs in picks 57-61. Then, they trade up with the Steelers... and instead of swapping picks, we get their R1 pick in 2018.

I know, I know: what coach would mortgage his future in such a way??? ANSWER: a coach on the hot seat who is desperate to win now.

Again, all of those factors are not likely going to fall exactly in to place. But, it could.

steelreserve

03-07-2017, 03:41 PM

Now... what I am hoping, is that a team like the Bears or Jets falls in love with a QB, and that there is a run on QBs in picks 57-61. Then, they trade up with the Steelers... and instead of swapping picks, we get their R1 pick in 2018.

So they'd fall in love with a player enough to give up a first-round pick, but not enough to have used their own second-round pick on him? I would find that really unlikely.

That kind of thing might happen if we had a mid to high second-round pick and the other team had a low one. The other way around, I don't see any way you're going to get a first-rounder for a pick at the end of R2.

And besides, I don't think this draft has ANY quarterbacks worth breaking your neck for like that.

I mean, yeah, you kind of acknowledged how unlikely all this is, but even the unlikely chance seems like it has issues that would prevent it.

If we're going to make a move for a QB in the next few years, it's probably going to be that year's first plus the next year's. More likely we just do this with Ben's retirement and the simultaneous salary cap shitstorm:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-27-2015/kNuMac.gif

... then use the next season's 8th pick or whatever to get a QB that is hopefully good.

teegre

03-07-2017, 06:37 PM

So they'd fall in love with a player enough to give up a first-round pick, but not enough to have used their own second-round pick on him? I would find that really unlikely.

That kind of thing might happen if we had a mid to high second-round pick and the other team had a low one. The other way around, I don't see any way you're going to get a first-rounder for a pick at the end of R2.

And besides, I don't think this draft has ANY quarterbacks worth breaking your neck for like that.

I mean, yeah, you kind of acknowledged how unlikely all this is, but even the unlikely chance seems like it has issues that would prevent it.

If we're going to make a move for a QB in the next few years, it's probably going to be that year's first plus the next year's. More likely we just do this with Ben's retirement and the simultaneous salary cap shitstorm:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-27-2015/kNuMac.gif

... then use the next season's 8th pick or whatever to get a QB that is hopefully good.

You are correct: it would be more likely if the Steelers had a higher R2 pick.

As far as "Why wouldn't the Jets (let's say) take that same QB at the top of R2?" Maybe they have a player/position graded higher, who somehow drops out of R1. Blam!!!... they take that player and hope that their QB will be there at 70. Then, oh no, between picks 57-61, three QBs get taken. Boom!!!... a lack of supply creates a need. The Jets had figured that they'd have three or four QBs to choose from, and now, it appears that none of them will be there. So... they trade up.

In a related vein, the team to keep an eye on is Tennessee, who doesn't have a R2 pick. If they target a player, they have a compensatory R3 pick which they could swap. I'd rather resist swapping, and instead, trade them for a future draft pick.

Either way, I t's likely going to require two R1 and two R2 picks in order to trade up into the top 11. So, if the Jets wanted to trade their 2018 R2 pick for the 62nd pick, I might take it... because, the Jets will likely be drafting in the top 15 again.

So, in 2018... trade the 32nd pick, the acquired Jets' R2 pick, our R2 pick, and our R1 pick in 2019, in order to move up.

steelreserve

03-07-2017, 06:49 PM

Either way, I t's likely going to require two R1 and two R2 picks in order to trade up into the top 11. So, if the Jets wanted to trade their 2018 R2 pick for the 62nd pick, I might take it... because, the Jets will likely be drafting in the top 15 again.

So, in 2018... trade the 32nd pick, the acquired Jets' R2 pick, our R2 pick, and our R1 pick in 2019, in order to move up.

heh, well that's certainly the positive way of looking at it. The was I see it, our most likely options are:

1. Use our own top-10 pick in 2021 to take a QB, or

2. Get lucky with a late R1 or R2 pick before then.

It remains to be seen whether this team could remain at least semi-competitive with the current cast of characters after Ben retires, but past evidence says probably not. Not to mention, by the time Ben retires, AB, Bell, Heyward, Pouncey, and just about anyone else who is not a recent draftee will also be approaching the end of their careers too. Four years out, and we can expect the whole team to turn over except for like a half-dozen guys.

Born2Steel

03-07-2017, 07:46 PM

I'm losing track here. :dizzy: If a team signs Cockrell, we get a 4th in this year's draft right? we will have a 1st, a 2nd, two 3rds, and two 4ths? Correct?

If this is correct, what would it take to get a 2nd 1st this year? Would our 2nd and a 3rd work or would it HAVE to be our 1st and move up within the round? Because I would give up our 2nd round pick and a 3rd to get an extra 1st.

st33lersguy

03-07-2017, 08:30 PM

I'm losing track here. :dizzy: If a team signs Cockrell, we get a 4th in this year's draft right? we will have a 1st, a 2nd, two 3rds, and two 4ths? Correct?

If another team offers a contract to Cockrell, Steelers have a week to match the offer. If they don't then they get the 4th

86WARD

03-07-2017, 08:49 PM

Here's the draft chart. It's not really as accurate as it used to be due to teams willingness to trade picks, trade future picks and the way the contracts are now but it's still a good resource and starting point.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170308/937833706024ef6377dd1b458e868708.jpg

teegre

03-07-2017, 08:54 PM

heh, well that's certainly the positive way of looking at it. The was I see it, our most likely options are:

1. Use our own top-10 pick in 2021 to take a QB, or

2. Get lucky with a late R1 or R2 pick before then.

It remains to be seen whether this team could remain at least semi-competitive with the current cast of characters after Ben retires, but past evidence says probably not. Not to mention, by the time Ben retires, AB, Bell, Heyward, Pouncey, and just about anyone else who is not a recent draftee will also be approaching the end of their careers too. Four years out, and we can expect the whole team to turn over except for like a half-dozen guys.

I think that BB retires after this upcoming season.

Then, we have the best WR, the best RB, a top-three O-LINE... and no QB. :scared: If we get a pretty good QB, we could still be contenders through the end of AB's, Bell's, and Pouncey (et al)'s careers.

I'd love nothing more than to find a steal in R3 or later, but as I listed in another thread, aside from Brady, Prescott, & Wilson, all of the franchise QBs were drafted in the top 40 picks... with the majority of the "elite" ones drafted early in R1. Hence... trading up.

teegre

03-07-2017, 09:19 PM

Born2Steel

03-08-2017, 07:37 AM

R1
R2
R3
R3 (comp)
R4
R4 (Cockrell)
R5
R6
R7

I doubt that we need all nine picks... making some expendable/tradable.

I see tradable mostly. What moves could be made to get 2 round 1 picks this year? Our FO has been on a roll with early draft picks lately.

- - - Updated - - -

I think that BB retires after this upcoming season.

Then, we have the best WR, the best RB, a top-three O-LINE... and no QB. :scared: If we get a pretty good QB, we could still be contenders through the end of AB's, Bell's, and Pouncey (et al)'s careers.

I'd love nothing more than to find a steal in R3 or later, but as I listed in another thread, aside from Brady, Prescott, & Wilson, all of the franchise QBs were drafted in the top 40 picks... with the majority of the "elite" ones drafted early in R1. Hence... trading up.

If we win the SB this upcoming season, I think it's a lock Ben retires after. He'll go out on top like Bettis/P.Manning did.

SteelerFanInStl

03-08-2017, 07:58 AM

If we win the SB this upcoming season, I think it's a lock Ben retires after. He'll go out on top like Bettis/P.Manning did.

Yes, I think that you can almost guarantee that will happen.

AtlantaDan

03-08-2017, 09:09 AM

If we win the SB this upcoming season, I think it's a lock Ben retires after. He'll go out on top like Bettis/P.Manning did.

I agree

Ben acted at times this year (not just at the end of the AFC championship game with his bizarre goodbyes to the O-linemen) as if he wanted to be somewhere other than playing. That was reflected in his lack of focus with the inexplicable interceptions in the Buffalo and Christmas Day Ravens game along with his comments about the younger players that came across to me more as being pi**ed off than any sort of constructive criticism.

His body is breaking down and my guess is he knows he already will be paying the price for that in future years even with no more injuries. If the Steelers force a full repayment of his remaining amortized bonus he does not seem to be one of those players who burned through his $$$ and will need to make signing appearances in future years to pay the bills.

His boyhood idol was John Elway and going out on top like that #7 makes sense to me.

823939307400466438

steelreserve

03-08-2017, 12:31 PM

I think that BB retires after this upcoming season.

Then, we have the best WR, the best RB, a top-three O-LINE... and no QB. :scared: If we get a pretty good QB, we could still be contenders through the end of AB's, Bell's, and Pouncey (et al)'s careers.

I'd love nothing more than to find a steal in R3 or later, but as I listed in another thread, aside from Brady, Prescott, & Wilson, all of the franchise QBs were drafted in the top 40 picks... with the majority of the "elite" ones drafted early in R1. Hence... trading up.

I would be surprised if he retired this year, unless maybe if we won the Super Bowl. But even then, my guess would be he plays out his contract (which is only three more years, ulp). Still, by that point, many of our key players are at or around age 30, and their shelf life is nothing like that of a QB.

Either way, I think after Ben retires, we'll have one year with a slapdick QB situation where we're maybe semi-competitive. And then either we catch a break and find a new franchise QB who's not a top-5 pick, or else the wheels really come off and we're drafting very early for a year or two.

My biggest worry (which I've stated before) is that we end up with a guy like Andy Dalton or Tony Romo, who's just good enough that you don't want to throw him away, but not good enough to win anything, and then you get stuck with him on a 6-year, $120M contract. THAT would be ugly.

86WARD

03-08-2017, 12:57 PM

If I am betting, I say two more years unless they win a Super Bowl in 2017.

BlackAndGold

03-08-2017, 01:06 PM

These great college QB's that expect to be apart of the 2018 draft may have a down year, or may develop flaws. I'm not a believer of this method of "next year".

How many people thought Watson was a sure fire #1 pick last year at this time?

Remember the hype around Jake Locker?

Ben's replacement will come by drafting one in late first, hoping to luck up in the mid rounds, or Ben retires and the team flat out sucks so they'll draft one high in the draft.

teegre

03-09-2017, 06:48 AM

I see tradable mostly. What moves could be made to get 2 round 1 picks this year? Our FO has been on a roll with early draft picks lately.

Using 86Ward's grid, it would (mathematically) require trading away our R2, both R3, R4, R5, R6, & R7 picks in order to get to 546... and the lowest R1 pick is (besides the Taperiots, with whom I'd never give that many picks) is Atlanta at 31: 600 points.

If you want an extra R1 pick, the best way to do it is to trade your pick from this draft for a pick in next year's draft (the time difference makes a R2 2017 pick equal to a R1 2018 pick).

86WARD

03-09-2017, 07:51 AM

Using 86Ward's grid, it would (mathematically) require trading away our R2, both R3, R4, R5, R6, & R7 picks in order to get to 546... and the lowest R1 pick is (besides the Taperiots, with whom I'd never give that many picks) is Atlanta at 31: 600 points.

If you want an extra R1 pick, the best way to do it is to trade your pick from this draft for a pick in next year's draft (the time difference makes a R2 2017 pick equal to a R1 2018 pick).

How often does that happen though? The R2 for R1 trade?