Show Butler the Door

[Craic]

Yes,

I am starting a thread calling for a coach to be fired.

Our CBs made great headway this year and our defense came alive. The problem is, the coach HAS TO put the players in a position to make plays. Zone coverage, again? If this were the first or second, even the fourth of fifth game this year, I wouldn't be worried with rookies; but it is the AFCCG. You KNOW you will lose with Zone coverage, so at least come out in man and see if you can win it. But nope. Not at all. We go right back to Dick LeBeau Zone defense—the type of defense that teams figured out starting in December of 2000.

It's time to pick from a new tree. That also means I do NOT want to see any of our assistant coaches getting the nod. I want someone fresh​.

[Edman]

Zone Coverage again, against one of the best quarterbacks that have made a career against the Zone Coverage.

[fansince'76]

Agreed. Same old Dick LeBeau BS that Brady has made a career shredding.

[Edman]

Agreed. Same old Dick LeBeau BS that Brady has made a career shredding.

And unfortunately, not smart enough to adjust his defenses.

[Mojouw]

Dont have the roster yet for man coverage. Burns and Gilbert could - rest are strictly zone guys.

Gotta go to war with the army you have, not the one you want.

[SteelerFanInStl]

I wanted someone new when Butler was hired. I knew that he'd continue with what LeBeau was doing.

[RunNGun]

Zone Coverage again, against one of the best quarterbacks that have made a career against the Zone Coverage.

I'm not ready to call for heads. Not in the slightest. I'm going to accept that we were beaten by a better football team. Tom Brady proved once again that he is the greatest of all time.
Butler had this defense playing as well as any team in the league in the last half of the season and in the first two playoff gasmes. We all knew it would take time with all the youth to click, but he did his job and got them to where they needed to be. Kudos to Butler this season and I expect to see a top 10 defense next year with Keith as our coordinator.

[Iron Steeler]

I couldnt beleive it when i saw it...

No way are the dumb enough to play zone the whole game. Nope theu were that dumb

[MrPgh]

The Steelers remain the only team that doesn't seem to understand that Brady destroys zone coverage.

[Craic]

Dont have the roster yet for man coverage. Burns and Gilbert could - rest are strictly zone guys.

Gotta go to war with the army you have, not the one you want.

Doesn't matter. If you know you're going to lose (3-10 against the Pats*) playing that scheme, then at least try something different. And, Gay can cover in the slot. Go man and let the safeties play a shell over the top. If you have three WRs on the field, that still leaves six to rush the passer, two of which can peel off to cover TEs or RBs coming out of the backfield. If BOTH ran routes, you'd still have a four man rush against a five man line.

[EzraTank]

So it's all on Butler but isn't Tomlin a defensive guy as well?

Maybe he didn't cheer loud enough at Butler's meetings.

[lipps83]

They never should have hired Butler.

That was the biggest mistake ownership could have made. Stop living on past successes.

It was the AWESOME players that made Lebeau look good. Not his record breaking lost games in the 4th quarter defense. That defense was/is garbage. The all pros made it look good.

They would have made any scheme look good.

- - - Updated - - -


So it's all on Butler but isn't Tomlin a defensive guy as well?

Maybe he didn't cheer loud enough at Butler's meetings.

It is all on Butler. Management is all about that Lebeau shit for some reason. Butler was the guy to replace Lebeau before Tomlin was ever hired.

Sure, Tomlin could tell him to adjust, but he wouldn't. Maybe for a series or two, but it will eventually go back to the same tired shit.

Butler is that dumb, just like Lebeau.

[RunNGun]

We're a bunch of spoiled fans. We made it as far as we deserved. No one is to blame. We don't match up well enough in man. Don't pretend you're a coach and know mare than these guys. We don't run man because our coaches have no trust in our guys to do it. Plain and simple and I'm sure it's for good reason. Take this L and bank on the team improving next year.

[fansince'76]

It is all on Butler. Management is all about that Lebeau shit for some reason. Butler was the guy to replace Lebeau before Tomlin was ever hired.

That's because LeBeau has been built up into a legend.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Problem is we hired within and got a DB clone with less knowledge. Ps. not a fan of hiring within the org.

[Iron Steeler]

Who else is out there. Someone with a man coverage mentality and pressure

[tube517]

We go right back to Dick LeBeau Zone defense—the type of defense that teams figured out starting in December of 2000.

This.

Bellicheat is the only one who is left from that timeframe and only has to cruise control when playing the Steelers.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Who else is out there. Someone with a man coverage mentality and pressure Any with that would work and knows how to switch it up. Bring in Rex lol.

[pczach]

Dont have the roster yet for man coverage. Burns and Gilbert could - rest are strictly zone guys.

Gotta go to war with the army you have, not the one you want.


I agree to a certain degree, but I think that you have to mix things up to give a guy like Brady different looks and force him to make some tight throws.

The other thing that really bothered me was rushing three many times during the game. The defense took a big step forward from the beginning of the season when they were doing that a lot. Once they stopped rushing three and trying to cover and started bringing more pressure, the defense improved greatly.

I just don't understand the game plan. It didn't work, and they didn't make many adjustments or give them looks to make them change what they were doing. That's what coaches are supposed to do, even if it's not what your team does best. There are times you need to go to things that aren't your strength if what you are doing isn't working, and change to play a defense that is known to give Brady trouble.

If the other team keeps hitting home runs off of your fastball, you need to mix in some curveballs even if it isn't your best pitch. With that said, I don't think that Butler was even throwing the fastball. Rushing three is just playing into Brady's strengths and was not what this defense did best this year.

I enjoyed the season. I'm proud of how far they went. I really believe next year is the year they should ready to go for it all, and I have been saying that all year. It's just difficult to watch your team go down without pulling out all the stops.

[steelreserve]

Dont have the roster yet for man coverage. Burns and Gilbert could - rest are strictly zone guys.

Gotta go to war with the army you have, not the one you want.

Against most teams, you'd be right. Against a team with an unathletic all-white receiving corps, I beg to differ. The Patriots' guys don't beat you, they run to a spot. How many times did we see a linebacker chasing after #15 from behind and making him look like Jerry Rice? Stupid, stupid game planning doomed us from the start.

[Mojouw]

Against most teams, you'd be right. Against a team with an unathletic all-white receiving corps, I beg to differ. The Patriots' guys don't beat you, they run to a spot. How many times did we see a linebacker chasing after #15 from behind and making him look like Jerry Rice? Stupid, stupid game planning doomed us from the start.

Every single one of those dudes is listed as running a 4.4-4.5. Plenty fast enough to make any of the Steelers DBs look foolish.

I agree with what you are saying for the most part. But the reaction around here is the result of most Steelers fans seriously underestimating just how good this Patriots team really is.

[Shoes]

Against most teams, you'd be right. Against a team with an unathletic all-white receiving corps, I beg to differ. The Patriots' guys don't beat you, they run to a spot. How many times did we see a linebacker chasing after #15 from behind and making him look like Jerry Rice? Stupid, stupid game planning doomed us from the start.

Yep, rinse and repeat.

[lipps83]

Not sure if anyone noticed, but the only times the defense really had any semblance of success tonight was when they rushed at least 5?

Did anyone notice that?

Mostly it was 3 or 4 and Brady had a career day, broke the record for pass yards in a championship game, and Hogan and the other dude had most yards for a duo.

That isn't a player issue, that is a scheme issue.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Not sure if anyone noticed, but the only times the defense really had any semblance of success tonight was when they rushed at least 5?

Did anyone notice that?

Mostly it was 3 or 4 and Brady had a career day, broke the record for pass yards in a championship game, and Hogan and the other dude had most yards for a duo.

That isn't a player issue, that is a scheme issue. Seen it and agreed and Brady had time to enjoy a cup of coffee and smoke a cig on one of the early TDS.

- - - Updated - - -

This is Butler and when you have issues with a coach. You don't hire another unknown with his same philosophy just trying to be nice to them.

[steelreserve]

Every single one of those dudes is listed as running a 4.4-4.5. Plenty fast enough to make any of the Steelers DBs look foolish.

I agree with what you are saying for the most part. But the reaction around here is the result of most Steelers fans seriously underestimating just how good this Patriots team really is.

We made them look far better than they actually were. We basically lined up and said "OK, well give you 10 yards whenever you want," and they said "lol, thanks!"

Unless our secondary is secretly much, much worse than we thought, there was no excuse for that scheme. Hell, even if it is that bad, there was no excuse for it. At least TRY to win, don't just hand them the game on a silver platter.

[Mojouw]

We made them look far better than they actually were. We basically lined up and said "OK, well give you 10 yards whenever you want," and they said "lol, thanks!"

Unless our secondary is secretly much, much worse than we thought, there was no excuse for that scheme. Hell, even if it is that bad, there was no excuse for it. At least TRY to win, don't just hand them the game on a silver platter.

I didn't see that much of a too big a cushion thing. I saw the Pats flooding individual zones with more receiving options than the Steelers had defenders in the area. On the first Pats TD Cockerell took the outside guy and there was no defender to take the inside guy (Hogan). That is either scheme or lack of communication between the players. I don't know which. Do I like zone defense? Not really. But there are hardly any "man coverage" teams in the NFL right now. The few that do all have more talented and experienced DBs than the Steelers currently feature.

Burns, Davis, Cockrell, Mitchell, Gay, and Dupree (he dropped in coverage several times) all made multiple mental mistakes that contributed to this looking really bad. Let's not forget that up front no one got to Brady when they did send multiple pass rushers. That plays a role as well. In general I am not ready to throw out the marriage of Tomlin's Cover-2 with Butler/Lebeau zone blitzes yet just because of one terrible playoff lose.

What I will say I would really hope to see as a fan, is that the Steelers bring in AND use more man coverage capable guys. Burns, Davis, and one really really hopes Gilbert is a start but not enough yet.

[fansince'76]

We made them look far better than they actually were. We basically lined up and said "OK, well give you 10 yards whenever you want," and they said "lol, thanks!"

Unless our secondary is secretly much, much worse than we thought, there was no excuse for that scheme. Hell, even if it is that bad, there was no excuse for it. At least TRY to win, don't just hand them the game on a silver platter.

This. They've been shitting all over LeBeau's "tackle the catch!" crap for years now. And we roll it right back out there again.

[steelreserve]

I didn't see that much of a too big a cushion thing. I saw the Pats flooding individual zones with more receiving options than the Steelers had defenders in the area. On the first Pats TD Cockerell took the outside guy and there was no defender to take the inside guy (Hogan). That is either scheme or lack of communication between the players. I don't know which. Do I like zone defense? Not really. But there are hardly any "man coverage" teams in the NFL right now. The few that do all have more talented and experienced DBs than the Steelers currently feature.

Burns, Davis, Cockrell, Mitchell, Gay, and Dupree (he dropped in coverage several times) all made multiple mental mistakes that contributed to this looking really bad. Let's not forget that up front no one got to Brady when they did send multiple pass rushers. That plays a role as well. In general I am not ready to throw out the marriage of Tomlin's Cover-2 with Butler/Lebeau zone blitzes yet just because of one terrible playoff lose.

What I will say I would really hope to see as a fan, is that the Steelers bring in AND use more man coverage capable guys. Burns, Davis, and one really really hopes Gilbert is a start but not enough yet.


I mean, look. What you described there in the first paragraph is a scheme that left the door wide open for them, and they abused it. I don't think our defenders, who had been communicating at least OK all season, suddenly forgot some of the most basic elements of the game.

You don't have to be a "man coverage team" in order to use it when called for. This is the NFL; everyone knows how to play man, everyone knows how to jam receivers and play tight coverage off the line. It might not be their strength or what they do all the time, but it doesn't mean they can't do it. I'd rather have three guys playing B-minus man coverage against B-minus receivers, than three guys who are used to playing zone defense and it turns into an automatic F because the B-minus receivers know exactly where to run.



In general I am not ready to throw out the marriage of Tomlin's Cover-2 with Butler/Lebeau zone blitzes yet just because of one terrible playoff lose.

It's not because of one playoff loss. It's because of many, many losses over more than a decade to the same stupid team over the same stupid shit. It just doesn't work against that kind of offense. And guess what, more often than not, that's who we're going to have to beat to get to the Super Bowl, even though flaming out early or missing the playoffs entirely for most of the past 5 years may have made us forget it.

[j-d-s]

Hmm. Should we hire Rex Ryan as Defensive Coordinator?

[lipps83]

Hmm. Should we hire Rex Ryan as Defensive Coordinator?

Anyone but Butler, damn.

You know who had a great game plan against the Pats?

Romeo Crennel.

You know who doesn't? Ever? Not even once?

Lebeau and Butler.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Butler is a idiot and heard him talking stupid on SNR radio before the game.

[EzraTank]

I would have accepted a loss even a blowout loss much better today if we blitzed 2-3 guys every down instead of rushing 3-4 guys and sitting in a COVER NONE zone.

[dislocatedday]

Anyone but Butler, damn.

You know who had a great game plan against the Pats?

Romeo Crennel.

You know who doesn't? Ever? Not even once?

Lebeau and Butler.

There was one game against the Pats several years ago (2011 I think) where LeBeau did change the game plan and the Steelers played predominantly man coverage and lined the DBs up at the line against the Pats receivers, and blitzed more often. The Steelers convincingly beat the Pats that day. That was the only time I remember this team doing that though against the Pats. Why they have never tried that again when facing them is something I do not understand.

[teegre]

The ideology behind playing zone is that you do not give up big plays (whereas, in man coverage, there is a legitimate possibility of giving up a big play if the CBs get burned).

Well... the Steelers have up at least 6 big plays.

So, they might as well have been in man coverage.



Add in a dash of Shazier & Timmons NOT pass rushing up the middle.

Sprinkle in the inopportune time for the young DBs to forget how to tackle/wrap up.


Voila!!! ...a blowout loss.

[tube517]

There was one game against the Pats several years ago (2011 I think) where LeBeau did change the game plan and the Steelers played predominantly man coverage and lined the DBs up at the line against the Pats receivers, and blitzed more often. The Steelers convincingly beat the Pats that day. That was the only time I remember this team doing that though against the Pats. Why they have never tried that again when facing them is something I do not understand.

The Steelers also had a 40-20 Time of possession advantage and kept the ball away from Brady. Ben dinked and dunked all day. Also, Woodley had the game of his life and then injured himself and pretty much ended his career that day.

And yes, they had more man to man that day as well. So, Arians and LeBeau made adjustments that day and won.

[Born2Steel]

I'm not going to argue and point/counter point on this thread. If you want to discuss real change at the DC position, come up with some names, a plan, something besides just change for the sake of change. A young defense, like the one we have, will not grow and improve by changing DCs every year or every other year. So come with a plan or this is just another stupid 'fire somebody' thread with zero merit. "You don't live in Cleveland...."

[polamalubeast]

I'm not going to argue and point/counter point on this thread. If you want to discuss real change at the DC position, come up with some names, a plan, something besides just change for the sake of change. A young defense, like the one we have, will not grow and improve by changing DCs every year or every other year. So come with a plan or this is just another stupid 'fire somebody' thread with zero merit. "You don't live in Cleveland...."

Rex Ryan?

[Born2Steel]

Rex Ryan?

Well, let's talk about Rex.

[DesertSteel]

Butler will get a long-term extension this offseason for the marked improvement of the young defense. He will be a fixture for the next 7-8 years. Get used to it folks.

[polamalubeast]

Butler will get a long-term extension this offseason for the marked improvement of the young defense. He will be a fixture for the next 7-8 years. Get used to it folks.

Like Dom Capers in Green Bay.....

[Mojouw]

Well, let's talk about Rex.

Why? He is the biggest over-rated blowhard in the league. The brothers Ryan are long on promise/expectation and short on any kind of delivery.

He had some good seasons on a loaded Ravens side and then like two good seasons on a similarly loaded Jets team. Then middle of the pack. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/RyanRe0.htm

[86WARD]

Ryan brothers? No thanks...don't need that circus in town.

[pczach]

Why? He is the biggest over-rated blowhard in the league. The brothers Ryan are long on promise/expectation and short on any kind of delivery.

He had some good seasons on a loaded Ravens side and then like two good seasons on a similarly loaded Jets team. Then middle of the pack. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/RyanRe0.htm


Ryan represents what many here say they don't want. The face of a once ferocious defensive scheme that has been figured out and rendered useless.

He's a big mouth that always wants to be the dominant voice in the room, and has not shown any results on the field in years. Add to that the circus that follows him with his outlandish remarks and the various jokes about his personal life. I see no positives with having him as a defensive coordinator and it may be a large step backward from Butler.

[steelcityboyz]

We need a Wade Phillips is he still avaliable?

[polamalubeast]

We need a Wade Phillips is he still avaliable?

He is with the Rams.

[lipps83]

I bet Butler has the AFC defense in the Pro Bowl play man-to-man and rushes 5 every down. Will pitch a shutout on the NFC.

Guaranteed.

Butler and Lebeau are blood brother Pats fans. That's the only explanation that makes any sense these days.

[86WARD]

Why isn't there a Show Danny Smith The Door thread??

[Born2Steel]

Rex Ryan?

I don't think many on here like the Rex Ryan suggestion. Anyone else? Throw these names out there....Jeff Fisher as DC? Rex/Rob Ryan as ST coach? Thoughts on Ray Horton as DC? It was thrown out there that Kevin Greene was interested in returning to Pittsburgh. ST? DC? LBs? I always liked Greene, how is he as a coach?

[steelreserve]

Fuck it, Mike Munchak could've called a better defensive game than Butler yesterday. We don't need an all-world DC, just someone who can make it through the season OK and then not do THAT.

Fire Butler now, worry about finding a replacement after. Just ask one question: "What would have been your plan to stop the Patriots?" First one to get it right gets the job. I only worry there's no one on the current staff or front office that knows the right answer either, which is sad.

[Count Steeler]

Fuck it, Mike Munchak could've called a better defensive game than Butler yesterday. We don't need an all-world DC, just someone who can make it through the season OK and then not do THAT.

Fire Butler now, worry about finding a replacement after. Just ask one question: "What would have been your plan to stop the Patriots?" First one to get it right gets the job. I only worry there's no one on the current staff or front office that knows the right answer either, which is sad.

We (SU) should apply to be team consultants. I'm pretty sure a couple of guys on this board would have been better than Butler on Sunday.

[Edman]

The idea of the Lebeau Zone is to tackle the catch and not give up "big plays".

Well the Pats don't care about big plays, and they still got big plays anyway.

Fail.

[86WARD]

They take what you give them and if there's a big okay to be had, they find the weakness and exploit it. They RARELY just chuck a ball up for a receiver to catch...although against the Texans, Brady was pressured and still able to heave quite a few balls up for the receivers to make plays.

[AtlantaDan]

No surprise a writer from the Boston Globe is going to gloat, but this is a good takedown of the defensive game plan

Steelers’ defensive game plan was atrocious

Let’s start with the most head-scratching decision — the usage of Bud Dupree and James Harrison. They are your two best pass rushers, and the Texans showed you in the divisional round with Jadeveon Clowney and Whitney Mercilus that the Patriots are susceptible to inside pressure.

Yet the Steelers didn’t bring either player up the middle on a twist or inside blitz. In fact, you didn’t use either player nearly enough as a pass rusher. On Brady’s 44 real drop-backs (excluding a clock spike), Harrison and Dupree each dropped into coverage 15 times. Not only were you not attacking Brady with your best rushers, but neither player is exactly proficient in pass coverage or playing in space....

And the Steelers acted like they’ve never seen a flea-flicker before. In fact, veteran safety Mike Mitchell said the Steelers hadn’t seen it on film from the Patriots — which is incredible, because the Patriots ran a flea-flicker against the Ravens on Dec. 12, two weeks before the Ravens faced the Steelers....

Let’s call this what it was — arguably the worst defensive performance against the Patriots all season.

Link to full article

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patriots/2017/01/23/steelers-defensive-game-plan-was-atrocious/GulDTMutIGoxfnZ6gMsUcJ/story.html

FWIW the article also includes video to illustrate the text, something that many sportswriters are now incorporating into their articles but which apparently is beyond the capability of the Post-Gazette writers

[86WARD]

He doesn't lie in the article...it's all true...lol.

[Edman]

No surprise a writer from the Boston Globe is going to gloat, but this is a good takedown of the defensive game plan

Steelers’ defensive game plan was atrocious

Let’s start with the most head-scratching decision — the usage of Bud Dupree and James Harrison. They are your two best pass rushers, and the Texans showed you in the divisional round with Jadeveon Clowney and Whitney Mercilus that the Patriots are susceptible to inside pressure.

Yet the Steelers didn’t bring either player up the middle on a twist or inside blitz. In fact, you didn’t use either player nearly enough as a pass rusher. On Brady’s 44 real drop-backs (excluding a clock spike), Harrison and Dupree each dropped into coverage 15 times. Not only were you not attacking Brady with your best rushers, but neither player is exactly proficient in pass coverage or playing in space....

And the Steelers acted like they’ve never seen a flea-flicker before. In fact, veteran safety Mike Mitchell said the Steelers hadn’t seen it on film from the Patriots — which is incredible, because the Patriots ran a flea-flicker against the Ravens on Dec. 12, two weeks before the Ravens faced the Steelers....

Let’s call this what it was — arguably the worst defensive performance against the Patriots all season.

Link to full article

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patriots/2017/01/23/steelers-defensive-game-plan-was-atrocious/GulDTMutIGoxfnZ6gMsUcJ/story.html

FWIW the article also includes video to illustrate the text, something that many sportswriters are now incorporating into their articles but which apparently is beyond the capability of the Post-Gazette writers

It's true.

Everyone, all over the world watching that game was left scratching their heads at the Steelers Defensive Scheme. Nantz and Simms were commenting on it.

Tom Brady has never beaten anyone with such regularity and such frequency as the Steelers Zone Defense. He has the second-highest career passing statistics against any opponent against the Steelers. He hasn't thrown an interception against the Steelers in twelve years. That is amazing, yet sickening and embarrassing.

Someone in the Steelers coaching booth before Sunday thought it was a good idea. They said "This defensive scheme has historically failed against Tom Brady. Lets do it again." In the Championship game.

[86WARD]

Maybe the coaching staff thought the Patriots thought the Steelers would change it so they didn't change it in hopes that when the Patriots thought the would change it that they would catch them off guard by not changing it.

[Mach1]

Maybe the coaching staff thought the Patriots thought the Steelers would change it so they didn't change it in hopes that when the Patriots thought the would change it that they would catch them off guard by not changing it.

Arians is that you. :chuckle:

[DesertSteel]

What we need to do is raid the Patriots defensive staff. They obviously know how to put a game plan together.

[steelreserve]

And the Steelers acted like they’ve never seen a flea-flicker before. In fact, veteran safety Mike Mitchell said the Steelers hadn’t seen it on film from the Patriots — which is incredible, because the Patriots ran a flea-flicker against the Ravens on Dec. 12, two weeks before the Ravens faced the Steelers....

Let’s call this what it was — arguably the worst defensive performance against the Patriots all season.


Arguably? I'd like to know who played worse!

The part about the film I can believe. Seems like our whole strategy was just "grrr, show up and play hard and hope we outmuscle them!" Not a thought in the world given to what the opponent might do.

[polamalubeast]

823945875118559232

[Born2Steel]

What college DCs could make the leap?

[fansince'76]

What we need to do is raid the Patriots defensive staff. They obviously know how to put a game plan together.

Their defense isn't all that either. We just need a bona fide #2 receiver.

[fansince'76]

No surprise a writer from the Boston Globe is going to gloat, but this is a good takedown of the defensive game plan

Steelers’ defensive game plan was atrocious

Let’s start with the most head-scratching decision — the usage of Bud Dupree and James Harrison. They are your two best pass rushers, and the Texans showed you in the divisional round with Jadeveon Clowney and Whitney Mercilus that the Patriots are susceptible to inside pressure.

Yet the Steelers didn’t bring either player up the middle on a twist or inside blitz. In fact, you didn’t use either player nearly enough as a pass rusher. On Brady’s 44 real drop-backs (excluding a clock spike), Harrison and Dupree each dropped into coverage 15 times. Not only were you not attacking Brady with your best rushers, but neither player is exactly proficient in pass coverage or playing in space....

And the Steelers acted like they’ve never seen a flea-flicker before. In fact, veteran safety Mike Mitchell said the Steelers hadn’t seen it on film from the Patriots — which is incredible, because the Patriots ran a flea-flicker against the Ravens on Dec. 12, two weeks before the Ravens faced the Steelers....

Let’s call this what it was — arguably the worst defensive performance against the Patriots all season.

Link to full article

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patriots/2017/01/23/steelers-defensive-game-plan-was-atrocious/GulDTMutIGoxfnZ6gMsUcJ/story.html

FWIW the article also includes video to illustrate the text, something that many sportswriters are now incorporating into their articles but which apparently is beyond the capability of the Post-Gazette writers

This is the worst part of it - seeing those chowderhead assclowns gloat about it. I hope Ryan smokes their asses.

[polamalubeast]

824004536771690496

[86WARD]

Their defense isn't all that either. We just need a bona fide #2 receiver.

Bryant?

[AtlantaDan]

824004536771690496

824005269185302528

Followup tweet by Dulac, presumably from the same "team source" - Gerry Dulac does not impress me as someone who has prepared cut outs of the game video himself.

Looks like someone is a little touchy about their game plan and is anonymously throwing players under the bus.

Sad!

[tube517]

824004536771690496

I'd like to see video of that. Specifically who was covering who. Because I saw alot of white jerseys standing around

[fansince'76]

Bryant?

Hopefully - if he can steer clear of the bong, anyway.

[DesertSteel]

Their defense isn't all that either. We just need a bona fide #2 receiver.
You mean other than being first in the league in scoring defense and putting the kibosh on us Sunday?

[Mojouw]

So while we still don't know why there was no inside pressure from Shazier and Timmons, we do know why there was no man coverage.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/01/dulac-steelers-stopped-using-man-coverage-ne-didnt-work/

Old ass William Gay can't do it anymore. I've argued before that the Steelers are transitioning to a secondary that can move between zone and man - but simply are not ready to roll that scheme out yet. Replace Gay with Golson (in a world where the kid was never injured etc etc) and I bet you do see man coverage often.

[AtlantaDan]

So while we still don't know why there was no inside pressure from Shazier and Timmons, we do know why there was no man coverage.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/01/dulac-steelers-stopped-using-man-coverage-ne-didnt-work/

Old ass William Gay can't do it anymore. I've argued before that the Steelers are transitioning to a secondary that can move between zone and man - but simply are not ready to roll that scheme out yet. Replace Gay with Golson (in a world where the kid was never injured etc etc) and I bet you do see man coverage often.

Based on Gerry Dulac's chat looks like Butler was the likely source on Dulac's tweets on how the Steelers tried man and gave it up because of Willie Gay.

Everyone's saying the problem is not doing press coverage. Did Butler not switch because he didn't trust the personnel he has available?

Gerry Dulac
Pay the man. Best question of the year

Gerry Dulac
One player in particular.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2017/01/25/pittsburgh-steelers-gerry-dulac-chat-1-25-17/stories/201701250167

Gay may be on the way out - Dulac also had these observations

Gerry Dulac
I think Ross Cockrell might be playing himself into the nickel back role in 2017 if Senquez Golson can stay healthy and get on the field....

Is Senquez Golson's foot finally healed? Can we finally count on him competing w/ Gay for the slot corner spot next year? He's been like Bigfoot, we've heard all about him but nobody has seen him.

Gerry Dulac

Haha. Bigfoot's foot should be all ready to go. And you don't have to worry about him competing w Gay. There will be no competition. I think the Steelers saw all they needed to see in the NE game

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2017/01/25/pittsburgh-steelers-gerry-dulac-chat-1-25-17/stories/201701250167

[fansince'76]

You mean other than being first in the league in scoring defense and putting the kibosh on us Sunday?

What I saw was the Steelers stopping themselves with dipshit play calling in the red zone (Gee, they're loading up the inside, I know, let's try running it up the gut with DWill lining up 7 yards behind the LOS...twice in a row!) along with a number of dropped passes (the latter of which kinda points back to my original "bona fide #2 receiver" comment) more than anything else. And then there's the murderer's row of QBs they've faced most of the season (http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/01/tom-brady-super-bowl-51-route-new-england-patriots-stats) that kinda helped that "#1 scoring D in the league" average.

If they can hold Atlanta's offense in check, then I'll STFU about it. But considering Seattle put up 31 points on them in their own backyard with arguably the worst OL in the league, I kinda doubt they will.

[Born2Steel]

If our current young CBs CAN play press, does it help us to play more from a 4-3 alignment defensively? With our current personnel, and QB pressure point of view.

[fansince'76]

If our current young CBs CAN play press, does it help us to play more from a 4-3 alignment defensively? With our current personnel, and QB pressure point of view.

Wouldn't have hurt to try, I don't think. The Patented LeBeau Soft Zone™ is supposedly designed not to give up big plays, which they kinda gave up in spades all night Sunday anyway, along with the dozen or so other times they've now rolled it out against Brady.

[DesertSteel]

What I saw was the Steelers stopping themselves with dipshit play calling in the red zone (Gee, they're loading up the inside, I know, let's try running it up the gut with DWill lining up 7 yards behind the LOS...twice in a row!) along with a number of dropped passes (the latter of which kinda points back to my original "bona fide #2 receiver" comment) more than anything else. And then there's the murderer's row of QBs they've faced most of the season (http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/01/tom-brady-super-bowl-51-route-new-england-patriots-stats) that kinda helped that "#1 scoring D in the league" average.

If they can hold Atlanta's offense in check, then I'll STFU about it. But considering Seattle put up 31 points on them in their own backyard with arguably the worst OL in the league, I kinda doubt they will.
Just remember, we're talking about COACHING, not talent. I'm not saying that NE is the most talented defense, just that their defensive coaches are a heckuva lot better at game planning than ours.

[Shoes]

Wouldn't have hurt to try, I don't think. The Patented LeBeau Soft Zone™ is supposedly designed not to give up big plays, which they kinda gave up in spades all night Sunday anyway, along with the dozen or so other times they've now rolled it out against Brady.

The Steelers soft zone doesn't give up the 40 yard TD pass, it just delays it by taking four passes of 10 yards and some time off the clock to get the same results.

[Dwinsgames]

The Steelers soft zone does give up the 40 yard TD pass but sometimes it just delays it by taking four passes of 10 yards and some time off the clock to get the same results.

fixed it 4 ya :chuckle:

[Shoes]

fixed it 4 ya :chuckle:

:chuckle:

[teegre]

Based on Gerry Dulac's chat looks like Butler was the likely source on Dulac's tweets on how the Steelers tried man and gave it up because of Willie Gay.

Everyone's saying the problem is not doing press coverage. Did Butler not switch because he didn't trust the personnel he has available?

Gerry Dulac
Pay the man. Best question of the year

Gerry Dulac
One player in particular.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2017/01/25/pittsburgh-steelers-gerry-dulac-chat-1-25-17/stories/201701250167

Gay may be on the way out - Dulac also had these observations

Gerry Dulac
I think Ross Cockrell might be playing himself into the nickel back role in 2017 if Senquez Golson can stay healthy and get on the field....

Is Senquez Golson's foot finally healed? Can we finally count on him competing w/ Gay for the slot corner spot next year? He's been like Bigfoot, we've heard all about him but nobody has seen him.

Gerry Dulac

Haha. Bigfoot's foot should be all ready to go. And you don't have to worry about him competing w Gay. There will be no competition. I think the Steelers saw all they needed to see in the NE game

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2017/01/25/pittsburgh-steelers-gerry-dulac-chat-1-25-17/stories/201701250167






Nice find.

So, let me get this straight...

William Gay decided to drop Dupree & Harrison into coverage. William Gay decided not to send Timmons & Shazier up the middle. And, last but not least, William Gay did a MIB mindswipe of Mike Mitchell erasing any knowledge of flea flickers.

Makes sense.

[Dwinsgames]

Nice find.

So, let me get this straight...

William Gay decided to drop Dupree & Harrison into coverage. William Gay decided not to send Timmons & Shazier up the middle. And, last but not least, William Gay did a MIB mindswipe of Mike Mitchell erasing any knowledge of flea flickers.

Makes sense.


you forgot William Gay knowing he couldn't cover in a man situation kept himself on the field instead of giving way to the younger , faster Gilbert

[AtlantaDan]

Nice find.

So, let me get this straight...

William Gay decided to drop Dupree & Harrison into coverage. William Gay decided not to send Timmons & Shazier up the middle. And, last but not least, William Gay did a MIB mindswipe of Mike Mitchell erasing any knowledge of flea flickers.

Makes sense.

After the Denver playoff loss last year the team was disappointed but hung together and was looking forward to 2016

At the end of this season, Ben says he is considering retirement while throwing shade at Haley, Tomlin says it would be too bad if Antonio Brown became one of those players who moves from team to team, and Butler apparently is anonymously leaking to the press that his players are to blame for not executing that dumpster fire of a game plan :gossip:

When the Rooneys sit down with Tomlin to review this season telling him to get his team under control might be on the agenda

[steelreserve]

This is the worst part of it - seeing those chowderhead assclowns gloat about it. I hope Ryan smokes their asses.

I don't even see that article as gloating. It's right on the money. We trotted out the worst possible game plan and didn't give ourselves a chance. Everybody in the country can see that was a perfect blueprint for how NOT to beat the Patriots. Except a certain guy whose name rhymes with Skeith Skutler.



So while we still don't know why there was no inside pressure from Shazier and Timmons, we do know why there was no man coverage.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/01/dulac-steelers-stopped-using-man-coverage-ne-didnt-work/

Old ass William Gay can't do it anymore. I've argued before that the Steelers are transitioning to a secondary that can move between zone and man - but simply are not ready to roll that scheme out yet. Replace Gay with Golson (in a world where the kid was never injured etc etc) and I bet you do see man coverage often.


Hmm, if only we had another cornerback who could come in and play man coverage. Wait - shit, we traded for one in the offseason! I think he returns kicks for us once in a while or something. And we drafted another one who we moved to safety, but surely he's forgotten everything about the position and couldn't even attempt to cover the third-best receiver on the White Midget Squad.

If we stuck with a scheme that we knew was the worst possible approach - I mean, this was like picking fire to beat water - all because we refused to rotate ONE GUY ... well fuck, then Butler should be even more fired than I thought.



If our current young CBs CAN play press, does it help us to play more from a 4-3 alignment defensively? With our current personnel, and QB pressure point of view.

Against offensive sets where it's going to matter, it's probably going to be more like a 3-3-5 nickel instead of a 2-4-5, but generally same idea.

I've been thinking for a while that our personnel situation would be ideal for a 4-3 anyway. McCullers would be great as part of a DT tandem but is fairly useless in a 3-4 except situationally ... Heyward and Dupree would make great ends, and both Heyward and Tuitt could play DE or DT.

And since we have virtually no OLB pressure anyway, a scheme that de-emphasizes that in favor of versatile guys who can both stuff the run and cover backs and TEs in the flat (and we have a lot of those guys) seems like it would work in our favor, in fact quickly making us solid at all front 7 positions without even adding anyone new.

[polamalubeast]

Too much drama on the Steelers right now.

[pczach]

So while we still don't know why there was no inside pressure from Shazier and Timmons, we do know why there was no man coverage.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/01/dulac-steelers-stopped-using-man-coverage-ne-didnt-work/

Old ass William Gay can't do it anymore. I've argued before that the Steelers are transitioning to a secondary that can move between zone and man - but simply are not ready to roll that scheme out yet. Replace Gay with Golson (in a world where the kid was never injured etc etc) and I bet you do see man coverage often.


I love how they tried it 3 times.....and it failed.

That's a bullshit answer because you do or try whatever you have to do within the game to slow the other team down. If Gay was the weak link, why wasn't Gilbert put in the game to try? He wasn't specifically coached to cover Gronk, but they brought him into the last game to cover him to try to limit him. They could have done the same thing at slot. If you play man, you don't need to have mastered the position or the scheme because you just line up and cover that man. This isn't rocket science. They are talking to us like none of us ever played football and we are all idiots. Sure, slot corner is different because you don't have the sideline so the receiver has a two-way release, but you also aren't covering AB or Julio Jones.

With the tape they have on all the past performances of zone defenses and Brady's long history of destroying it, the William Gay excuse doesn't hold up IMO. We know they played in man a few times because we watched the game, but it wasn't nearly enough to say it was any more of a failure than the zone. I don't believe it was implemented enough to say that it failed.

They stuck with the zone and watched it go down with the ship.

I wonder how many "times" they tried zone Cover-2 or Cover-3? I know that sure as hell failed a whole lot more times than the man coverage did. They didn't give up on that though.....did they? LOL!

I know these aren't your thoughts. You're just posting an article. That just pisses me off because what they are saying is a copout. I don't think I can be convinced otherwise.

[Mojouw]

I love how they tried it 3 times.....and it failed.

That's a bullshit answer because you do or try whatever you have to do within the game to slow the other team down. If Gay was the weak link, why wasn't Gilbert put in the game to try? He wasn't specifically coached to cover Gronk, but they brought him into the last game to cover him to try to limit him. They could have done the same thing at slot. If you play man, you don't need to have mastered the position or the scheme because you just line up and cover that man. This isn't rocket science. They are talking to us like none of us ever played football and we are all idiots. Sure, slot corner is different because you don't have the sideline so the receiver has a two-way release, but you also aren't covering AB or Julio Jones.

With the tape they have on all the past performances of zone defenses and Brady's long history of destroying it, the William Gay excuse doesn't hold up IMO. We know they played in man a few times because we watched the game, but it wasn't nearly enough to say it was any more of a failure than the zone. I don't believe it was implemented enough to say that it failed.

They stuck with the zone and watched it go down with the ship.

I wonder how many "times" they tried zone Cover-2 or Cover-3? I know that sure as hell failed a whole lot more times than the man coverage did. They didn't give up on that though.....did they? LOL!

I know these aren't your thoughts. You're just posting an article. That just pisses me off because what they are saying is a copout. I don't think I can be convinced otherwise.

I agree with you for the most part. I only posted it to highlight that everyone is SUPER emotional and running around here spouting off things like a bunch of hysterical high school kids lately. We, as the fans, have basically only one known fact - the Steelers got their ass handed to them on Sunday. Everything else is basically rumor, speculation, he said-she said BS, etc at this point. Now we do know that they "tried" man coverage and their was a reason (however much of a bullshit excuse it may indeed be) that it was abandoned. That article alone, assuming it is true, answers 85% of the posts on here from the past 48 hours or so. We do not have to agree or like the answer - but it does exist despite rumors to the contrary.

Take this "fact" and couple it with another that no one has really talked about yet and we can explain the outcome on Sunday pretty readily. Everyone gushes over the Pats defense and how they take what you do best away from you. But we need to look at their offense as well. Other than the year they rode Corey Dillon and that year that Brady just went mad bomber to Randy Moss, the Pats offense is designed to do one thing - shred zones. Why? Because basically every team in the NFL plays it. Particulary in the last 10-12 years in the AFC. Bellichek looked around and realized if he could consistently beat a 3-4 zone team, he would have most of the AFC's top defenses accounted for. That's why he doesn't need freakish athletes at the WR position (although the underestimation of how athletic that corps is in NE has been comical. Seriously go look up their listed #'s - respectable at worst) - they run precise routes to specific spots with precision timing. Ball is in the air before guys even turn around etc. I know this sounds like the precise situation for jamming guys at the line and manning up. It does to me as well. But there must be a reason that almost no one does this. I have no idea what it is - but no one really does it to them. They rely on pressure to disrupt the timing and stop the Pats offense.

Long story short - the Steelers simply got beat because the offense was depleted (again) and the defense is missing multiple pieces and is not ready for prime time. Am I pissed - sure. Do I think we need to blow it all up and start firing people - nope.

[Born2Steel]

I agree with you for the most part. I only posted it to highlight that everyone is SUPER emotional and running around here spouting off things like a bunch of hysterical high school kids lately. We, as the fans, have basically only one known fact - the Steelers got their ass handed to them on Sunday. Everything else is basically rumor, speculation, he said-she said BS, etc at this point. Now we do know that they "tried" man coverage and their was a reason (however much of a bullshit excuse it may indeed be) that it was abandoned. That article alone, assuming it is true, answers 85% of the posts on here from the past 48 hours or so. We do not have to agree or like the answer - but it does exist despite rumors to the contrary.

Take this "fact" and couple it with another that no one has really talked about yet and we can explain the outcome on Sunday pretty readily. Everyone gushes over the Pats defense and how they take what you do best away from you. But we need to look at their offense as well. Other than the year they rode Corey Dillon and that year that Brady just went mad bomber to Randy Moss, the Pats offense is designed to do one thing - shred zones. Why? Because basically every team in the NFL plays it. Particulary in the last 10-12 years in the AFC. Bellichek looked around and realized if he could consistently beat a 3-4 zone team, he would have most of the AFC's top defenses accounted for. That's why he doesn't need freakish athletes at the WR position (although the underestimation of how athletic that corps is in NE has been comical. Seriously go look up their listed #'s - respectable at worst) - they run precise routes to specific spots with precision timing. Ball is in the air before guys even turn around etc. I know this sounds like the precise situation for jamming guys at the line and manning up. It does to me as well. But there must be a reason that almost no one does this. I have no idea what it is - but no one really does it to them. They rely on pressure to disrupt the timing and stop the Pats offense.

Long story short - the Steelers simply got beat because the offense was depleted (again) and the defense is missing multiple pieces and is not ready for prime time. Am I pissed - sure. Do I think we need to blow it all up and start firing people - nope.

Agreed. Nope. Add to this awesome team with a few more talented players, and here we go!

[pczach]

I agree with you for the most part. I only posted it to highlight that everyone is SUPER emotional and running around here spouting off things like a bunch of hysterical high school kids lately. We, as the fans, have basically only one known fact - the Steelers got their ass handed to them on Sunday. Everything else is basically rumor, speculation, he said-she said BS, etc at this point. Now we do know that they "tried" man coverage and their was a reason (however much of a bullshit excuse it may indeed be) that it was abandoned. That article alone, assuming it is true, answers 85% of the posts on here from the past 48 hours or so. We do not have to agree or like the answer - but it does exist despite rumors to the contrary.

Take this "fact" and couple it with another that no one has really talked about yet and we can explain the outcome on Sunday pretty readily. Everyone gushes over the Pats defense and how they take what you do best away from you. But we need to look at their offense as well. Other than the year they rode Corey Dillon and that year that Brady just went mad bomber to Randy Moss, the Pats offense is designed to do one thing - shred zones. Why? Because basically every team in the NFL plays it. Particulary in the last 10-12 years in the AFC. Bellichek looked around and realized if he could consistently beat a 3-4 zone team, he would have most of the AFC's top defenses accounted for. That's why he doesn't need freakish athletes at the WR position (although the underestimation of how athletic that corps is in NE has been comical. Seriously go look up their listed #'s - respectable at worst) - they run precise routes to specific spots with precision timing. Ball is in the air before guys even turn around etc. I know this sounds like the precise situation for jamming guys at the line and manning up. It does to me as well. But there must be a reason that almost no one does this. I have no idea what it is - but no one really does it to them. They rely on pressure to disrupt the timing and stop the Pats offense.

Long story short - the Steelers simply got beat because the offense was depleted (again) and the defense is missing multiple pieces and is not ready for prime time. Am I pissed - sure. Do I think we need to blow it all up and start firing people - nope.


I hear you. I'm not advocating throwing Butler out of the team bus over the Fort Pitt bridge. I'm simply stating that the excuse given is not an acceptable football answer.

And for the record.....Tomlin could have stepped in at any time and had Butler run any defense he thought would be most effective. It's not like he was too busy calling offensive plays or cheerleading. :chuckle:

They had a great run, and Butler had a lot of rookies come into his defense and grow and produce as the year went on. Kudos to him for that. As fans, we have all been losing our minds for years watching players sit on the bench for years learning the system before they were able to play. Butler has shown that it can be done, and done successfully.

They way they have structured the DL while also changing their responsibilities and allowing for more penetration to disrupt plays tells you that they want the defense to be more versatile in what they can do. I know that Golson was supposed to be a huge part of the new defense, and that his injuries the last two years have been devastating because they have had to change things from a personnel and scheme standpoint when he went down.

Maybe they are just a piece away from being able to run the man coverage seamlessly. I hope that is the case, because if they get to that point where they can play zone and play press coverage man.....they will be in a position to dictate the terms to the teams they play, and they will be in a position to beat people in multiple ways and finally match up against the Pats.

They need to grow from this, or this will continue to be a recurring result.

[Mojouw]

I hear you. I'm not advocating throwing Butler out of the team bus over the Fort Pitt bridge. I'm simply stating that the excuse given is not an acceptable football answer.

And for the record.....Tomlin could have stepped in at any time and had Butler run any defense he thought would be most effective. It's not like he was too busy calling offensive plays or cheerleading. :chuckle:

They had a great run, and Butler had a lot of rookies come into his defense and grow and produce as the year went on. Kudos to him for that. As fans, we have all been losing our minds for years watching players sit on the bench for years learning the system before they were able to play. Butler has shown that it can be done, and done successfully.

They way they have structured the DL while also changing their responsibilities and allowing for more penetration to disrupt plays tells you that they want the defense to be more versatile in what they can do. I know that Golson was supposed to be a huge part of the new defense, and that his injuries the last two years have been devastating because they have had to change things from a personnel and scheme standpoint when he went down.

Maybe they are just a piece away from being able to run the man coverage seamlessly. I hope that is the case, because if they get to that point where they can play zone and play press coverage man.....they will be in a position to dictate the terms to the teams they play, and they will be in a position to beat people in multiple ways and finally match up against the Pats.

They need to grow from this, or this will continue to be a recurring result.

Yes. All of this. Great posting.

[polamalubeast]

824403380563013632

:rolleyes:

[Steeldude]

Yes,

I am starting a thread calling for a coach to be fired.

Our CBs made great headway this year and our defense came alive. The problem is, the coach HAS TO put the players in a position to make plays. Zone coverage, again? If this were the first or second, even the fourth of fifth game this year, I wouldn't be worried with rookies; but it is the AFCCG. You KNOW you will lose with Zone coverage, so at least come out in man and see if you can win it. But nope. Not at all. We go right back to Dick LeBeau Zone defense—the type of defense that teams figured out starting in December of 2000.

It's time to pick from a new tree. That also means I do NOT want to see any of our assistant coaches getting the nod. I want someone fresh​.

You have to blame Tomlin as well. He was fine with zone against Brady when Lebeau was here and he was fine with it last Sunday.

[ALLD]

That was Martyball on defense. Even the ballboy's sister knows you can't play zone against the Patriots in Boston.

[Renegade]

I say keep mr. Butler. the chief rival that we will be competing with for a playoff spot is baltimore. even though since butler took over, the steelers are 1-3 against them, flacco has thrown 3 interceptions, lost a fumble and with the execption of the Christmas day game, has not moved the ball well. AFCCG does not happen if we cant beat the birdbrains. given how tough the ravens are likely to be, keep butler because whatever he is doing confuses the crap out of Joey F. (My nickname for baltimore's elite pass-man). what the defense really needs are 2 angry fat guys (kind of like the ravens draft) who like to hit the quarterback and get consistent pressure. obviously, his coaching in the NE game was abysmal.it s amazing to think he did not change up the game plan (if he had one). but do not blame Keith for the lack of personnel. the FO needs to stop wasting draft picks on defensive line busts.

[Dwinsgames]

the FO needs to stop wasting draft picks on defensive line busts.

Like Heyward , Tuitte and Hargrave ...gotcha

[steelreserve]

Like Heyward , Tuitte and Hargrave ...gotcha


Yeah, that was pretty dumb. I think we could still use one more angry fat guy, but this is the first time in 5 or 6 years that it feels like we've got a real defensive line (when healthy) instead of a stopgap one. Now we are one good receiver/TE and one good pass rusher away from having all the pieces. We may have the first two already, depending on weed and health issues.

[Renegade]

i should have rephrased that. I meant on the defense in general. IE Shamarko Thomas, Jarvis Jones. ECT. I love Heywward, Tuitt and Hargrave. They just don't seem to play with anger that James Harrison has. That was what I meant. In retrospect, I should have edited that post immediately. lol sorry about that. Im not that dumb.

[Mojouw]

Very few have ever played with the anger and violence of action that Harrison plays with. If we start waiting around for that, the Steelers will only be making a draft pick on defense once every 7 years or so.

I agree it would be great if everyone was able to play like that, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[steelreserve]

i should have rephrased that. I meant on the defense in general. IE Shamarko Thomas, Jarvis Jones. ECT. I love Heywward, Tuitt and Hargrave. They just don't seem to play with anger that James Harrison has. That was what I meant. In retrospect, I should have edited that post immediately. lol sorry about that. Im not that dumb.

I kind of get what you're saying. While they are all very good linemen in their own way, out of the three of them only Tuitt reminds me more than occasionally of that Hampton/A. Smith intensity where it was like a bull ride rather than smartly and concisely attacking the pocket. It's a subtle difference, but I think worth noting in a 3-4.

It doesn't mean they're not good or we can't be successful that way, but if not there, we do need it from somewhere.

[IowaSteeler927]

Butler's not going anywhere anytime soon unless the defense completely falls apart and it's blatantly his fault. We have personnel and talent deficiencies in our defense that need to be addressed through the draft, and through free agency this offseason. William Gay's play has fallen off, and Cockrell is shaky at times. We also have no depth on our defensive line behind the starters, and we need to continue to upgrade at the OLB position with more prolific pass rushers. If we can fill some of the voids the defense will get better, they also need to spend a lot of time when camp comes around focusing on Man coverage.

The defense will also be better with rookies like Artie Burns, Sean Davis, and Javon Hargrave getting some work in the offseason in the weight room. The game will slow down for them more now as they will be able to focus in more on the physical aspect of the game with a better understanding of the mental part of it.

I don't think Butler needs to be fired. We made it to the AFC Championship game, let's see how they do in the draft, and free agency in 2017.

[Born2Steel]

Butler's not going anywhere anytime soon unless the defense completely falls apart and it's blatantly his fault. We have personnel and talent deficiencies in our defense that need to be addressed through the draft, and through free agency this offseason. William Gay's play has fallen off, and Cockrell is shaky at times. We also have no depth on our defensive line behind the starters, and we need to continue to upgrade at the OLB position with more prolific pass rushers. If we can fill some of the voids the defense will get better, they also need to spend a lot of time when camp comes around focusing on Man coverage.

The defense will also be better with rookies like Artie Burns, Sean Davis, and Javon Hargrave getting some work in the offseason in the weight room. The game will slow down for them more now as they will be able to focus in more on the physical aspect of the game with a better understanding of the mental part of it.

I don't think Butler needs to be fired. We made it to the AFC Championship game, let's see how they do in the draft, and free agency in 2017.

Plus.....You would see a vast improvement in our DBs play if we could get a consistent pass rush. We may need to get 2 specialists early in this draft. We already have Gay's replacement if he can keep his feet healthy. Probably need to double down on that as well.

[st33lersguy]

824403380563013632

:rolleyes:

I find it funny that the Bengirls are stuck hoping the Steelers don't go to the Super Bowl since they know they will never sniff one themselves

- - - Updated - - -

The gameplan was horrible, and OLBs should have been rushing every play, but Butler should not be fired for one game. Keep in mind this defense has started to gel and keeps improving

[Born2Steel]

Although I do believe a coach can deserve being fired after one bad game, this was NOT that game for Butler. Too early to make that change with these guys coming together as they did last season. They actually resembled a team those last 9-10 games. I'm pretty excited about this defense and how god they CAN be. Let's give Butler another stud or 2 in that front 7 and I think we're looking at another dynasty.

[steelreserve]

Although I do believe a coach can deserve being fired after one bad game, this was NOT that game for Butler. Too early to make that change with these guys coming together as they did last season. They actually resembled a team those last 9-10 games. I'm pretty excited about this defense and how god they CAN be. Let's give Butler another stud or 2 in that front 7 and I think we're looking at another dynasty.

If there was ever one game that someone deserved to be fired for, that was it. It was the conference championship game - the second-biggest game in the entire sport - and he singlehandedly fucked us. Put our 2005 or 2008 defense in there and we still stand no chance with that game plan. Even attempting it shows you have no clue, and sticking with it is unforgivable. It sucks, we'll never know if we could've actually won that game, because that one thing made it an auto-loss.

[fansince'76]

If there was ever one game that someone deserved to be fired for, that was it.

I thought LeBeau should have been fired immediately after the Tebow WC debacle. Instead, Arians got the blame (as usual) as well as a pink slip and LeBeau got 3 more years.

At least Brady is a legit NFL QB.

[Shoes]

I thought LeBeau should have been fired immediately after the Tebow WC debacle. Instead, Arians got the blame (as usual) as well as a pink slip and LeBeau got 3 more years.

At least Brady is a legit NFL QB.


I still get the dry heaves when I think about that game.

[fansince'76]

I still get the dry heaves when I think about that game.

I was "privileged" enough to see that shitshow in person. The image of Cartman from South Park in a Broncos uniform yelling "Let's go, Tebow!" on the scoreboard over and over and over again while I tried to get the hell out of the stadium as quickly as possible afterwards is still stuck in my memory. :willy:

[steelreserve]

I thought LeBeau should have been fired immediately after the Tebow WC debacle. Instead, Arians got the blame (as usual) as well as a pink slip and LeBeau got 3 more years.

At least Brady is a legit NFL QB.


Honestly I didn't think our game plan was as bad in the Denver game as you do. We knew Tebow couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, so we dared him to throw it on us. And that turned out to be the one idiot-savant game of his career where he could actually throw the ball. IIRC we also had two or three guys tear their ACL in that game too. It was one of those games where shit was just sideways and you almost had to laugh at how absurd it was.

The last play of the game was just horrible, though, and that is still burned into my mind.

[polamalubeast]

The gameplan against Tebow is the worst I've seen in my life.

31 yards per completion....

[teegre]

Honestly I didn't think our game plan was as bad in the Denver game as you do. We knew Tebow couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, so we dared him to throw it on us. And that turned out to be the one idiot-savant game of his career where he could actually throw the ball. IIRC we also had two or three guys tear their ACL in that game too. It was one of those games where shit was just sideways and you almost had to laugh at how absurd it was.

I agree. The TD pass to Eddie Royal is a perfect example. A good QB makes that pass 1 out of 10 attempts... and Tebow makes 1 out of 100 attempts. Well, he completed it. :doh: Every completion in that game (all ten... yes, just ten) was a "miracle" throw.

One other thing:
The Steelers were close to game-winning FG range in regulation. Instead of running the ball, Arians has a hobbled/immobile BB drop back four times. BB gets sacked twice, loses 26 yards... knocking us out of FG range. It was a perfect example of an Arians' gameplan.

[AtlantaDan]

I thought LeBeau should have been fired immediately after the Tebow WC debacle. Instead, Arians got the blame (as usual) as well as a pink slip and LeBeau got 3 more years.

The Denver game was a cluster but Ryan Clark being unable to play because of the altitude and his sickle cell anemia presumably was a factor - Ben getting sacked 5 times did not help either

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201201080den.htm

2011 actually was the last great year for the LeBeau defense

Defense Points - 1 Yards - 1

OTOH AJR II had seen enough after this performance by the offense in 2011

Offense Points - 21 Yards - 12

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2011.htm

[st33lersguy]

I thought LeBeau should have been fired immediately after the Tebow WC debacle. Instead, Arians got the blame (as usual) as well as a pink slip and LeBeau got 3 more years.


Some Steelers scores from that year, 10-17, 17-13, 13-9 (twice), 14-3.
Steelers scored 17 points or less 7 times and went 4-3 in those games. Likewise the defense surrendered more than 21 points in the regular season twice and lost both games
Oh and the offense did not score a TD on the road in the 4th quarter until the Tebow playoff game. Clearly the offense was the weaker unit was the weaker unit, and I would strongly disagree with firing a coordinator fresh off a season where he coordinated a unit that led the league in points and yards surrendered

[43Hitman]

We dared Tebow to beat us with his arm, and he did. That loss still pisses me off.

[LloydWoodson]

We dared Tebow to beat us with his arm, and he did. That loss still pisses me off.

DT won the game not Tebow.

[43Hitman]

DT won the game not Tebow.meh...semantics

[Craic]

Okay, so, back to the original point of this thread . . . which came about after a frustrating loss to the Patriots.

Came across this (http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/01/dulac-steelers-stopped-using-man-coverage-ne-didnt-work/) article, which affirmed something I had heard earlier; we actually did go to man coverage, three times. Every time, we got burnt pretty bad. After that, we stayed in zone. Also, the main culprit was Gay.

If that article is correct, and if Golson can make it out of camp this year and has any semblance of coverage skills, are we really that bad off as a defense? Demote Gay, plug in Golson, and if he's even close to advertised, we now have a nickel defense that can play man coverage, according to the article. And, this defense has been built under the tutelage of Tomlin and Butler.

With this knowledge, does it change what any of you think about Butler? Would you be willing to give him another year, seeing as it looks like he, along with Tomlin, actually is trying to build a DB corp that can play man, and they're one injured player away from accomplishing it?

[polamalubeast]

The steelers need more depth at the DB position,no matter what....

[Mojouw]

Okay, so, back to the original point of this thread . . . which came about after a frustrating loss to the Patriots.

Came across this (http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/01/dulac-steelers-stopped-using-man-coverage-ne-didnt-work/) article, which affirmed something I had heard earlier; we actually did go to man coverage, three times. Every time, we got burnt pretty bad. After that, we stayed in zone. Also, the main culprit was Gay.

If that article is correct, and if Golson can make it out of camp this year and has any semblance of coverage skills, are we really that bad off as a defense? Demote Gay, plug in Golson, and if he's even close to advertised, we now have a nickel defense that can play man coverage, according to the article. And, this defense has been built under the tutelage of Tomlin and Butler.

With this knowledge, does it change what any of you think about Butler? Would you be willing to give him another year, seeing as it looks like he, along with Tomlin, actually is trying to build a DB corp that can play man, and they're one injured player away from accomplishing it?

This is kinda the line of thinking I've come around do and been advocating for. Combine that with another pass rush threat and you may have something on defense.

In a perfect world, someone would rehab Justin Gilbert's talent/value and your secondary would look something like this:

Burns/Gilbert - zone or man capable.
Golson/Gay/Cockerell - mix and match the nickel look based on that week's match-up needs.
Mitchell/Davis - centerfielders

Then you could really get exotic with your nickel/sub packages. Gilbert slides inside and becomes an extra safety or TE match-up defender and Cockerell takes his place outside in a bit of a "big" nickel look. Cockerell and Golson hit the field in a coverage heavy scheme. Davis or Mitchell slides down to the LB level to even things out.

But you need the guys to do all that. Gilbert may never play a down as a useful DB in the NFL. If so you likely need a nickel corner and another "outside" guy with speed and length.

[polamalubeast]

827624554642153473

[Mojouw]

827624554642153473

Too bad the Broncos lost to the Pats anyway. I also think Harris may have forgotten about the existence of Von Miller.

[polamalubeast]

Too bad the Broncos lost to the Pats anyway. I also think Harris may have forgotten about the existence of Von Miller.



It's hard to win in this league when your offense scores only 3 points.The Broncos had only allowed 16 points against the Pats this year.

18 in their wins last year in the AFC title game, despite that the Broncos offense had several 3 and out in the second half ....

[Mojouw]

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00/gamelog/

Where are all these losses against man coverage teams? I mean Brady and the Pats can be beat, but it isn't this simple man coverage+ jamming = brady kryponite

[polamalubeast]

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00/gamelog/

Where are all these losses against man coverage teams? I mean Brady and the Pats can be beat, but it isn't this simple man coverage+ jamming = brady kryponite


It's only that the chances are better when you play man to man against the pats.

When you play the zone against them, you have almost no chance.

[Mojouw]

It's only that the chances are better when you play man to man against the pats.

When you play the zone against them, you have almost no chance.

http://www.footballdb.com/stats/qb-records.html

Dude has won 77% of the games he has started. That means he beat the snot out of some man coverage teams as well.

Does jamming his WRs help? Maybe, depends on the WRs. Likely didn't matter a whole bunch when it was Randy Moss just eating people up on jump balls. Doesn't matter when it is Gronk just destroying nickel CBs and slow footed LBs. Welker, Edeleman, etc - sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Other things that have and have not helped over Brady's 15+ year run: dominating time of possession, stopping the run, forcing turnovers, playing in terrible conditions, injuries to the skill positions and/or offensive line.

My point, Tom Brady has won 7.7 out of every 10 games he has played in the NFL. That is just a stupid bonkers statistic that I am struggling to wrap my head around. Additionally his career is so damn long, he has won playing multiple distinct styles of QB/offense. He has seen and beat them all.

Like any other QB there are only 2 sure-fire ways to stop him: 1. put him on his back before he can pass 2. pick the ball off. Other than that, it is all a crap-shoot.

[polamalubeast]

I know that Brady is great and a defense man to man is very far from being a guaranteed victory against him, but the defense zone is almost a guaranteed defeat against Brady....I mean, the steelers need to change strategy against Brady, because the things the steelers have been trying against him for 16 years is not working!

It's worse since Tomlin is here, since Brady's QB rating against us is superior to the 2011 season of Aaron Rodgers.(The best QB rating for a season by a QB)

[polamalubeast]

Playing the zone against Brady is like throwing the white flag against him.

Man coverage, if they would have done that, but the steelers would have been destroyed, I would have said at least they tried and the steelers need more cornerbacks.

[Mojouw]

http://offthemonstersports.com/2016/10/tom-bradys-career-record-vs-every-nfl-team-is-nothing-short-of-spectacular-thru-week-7-2016/

Only teams doing any better are (going by rough estimation of the %'s):

Denver
Baltimore
Giants
Packers
Chargers
Chiefs

If someone can demonstrate that those were all wins by bump and run man coverage, then I will back off. I bet every one of those wins has a different reason. I bet the ONLY consistent is pressure.

[polamalubeast]

In regular season in his career, Brady has a QB rating of 114.2 against the steelers, which is his highest among all the teams in the NFL.

Brady is great, but against the steelers he is even better....This is certain that what the steelers try against Brady do not work.

[Mojouw]

In regular season in his career, Brady has a QB rating of 114.2 against the steelers, which is his highest among all the teams in the NFL.

Brady is great, but against the steelers he is even better....This is certain that what the steelers try against Brady do not work.

i will agree with that, but I refuse to agree that it is a simple case of bump and run man coverage equals better outcome.

Pas rush, Pass rush, Pass rush, and more pass rush are the ONLY proven way to beat a great QB. No coverage scheme can stop a great QB and a decent group of pass catchers consistently - if for no other reason than they know where they are going and what they are trying to do and the defenders have to guess and react. Pressure allows the defense to attempt to dictate to the offense.

I simply do not care what coverage scheme the Steelers run on the back-end but I do now that it has to be fronted by far more pressure than they got last game against Brady. You could roll out a secondary of Troy Polamalu, Ed Reed, Darelle Revis, and Deion Sanders. If you don't put pressure on Brady, he will find a way to complete enough passes to beat you.

[polamalubeast]

Pressure is very important, but this is hard to put pressure when the opponent QB throw in less than 2 seconds.

Man to man and after putting pressure is the best way to beat the elites QB.

[tube517]

i will agree with that, but I refuse to agree that it is a simple case of bump and run man coverage equals better outcome.

Pas rush, Pass rush, Pass rush, and more pass rush are the ONLY proven way to beat a great QB. No coverage scheme can stop a great QB and a decent group of pass catchers consistently - if for no other reason than they know where they are going and what they are trying to do and the defenders have to guess and react. Pressure allows the defense to attempt to dictate to the offense.

I simply do not care what coverage scheme the Steelers run on the back-end but I do now that it has to be fronted by far more pressure than they got last game against Brady. You could roll out a secondary of Troy Polamalu, Ed Reed, Darelle Revis, and Deion Sanders. If you don't put pressure on Brady, he will find a way to complete enough passes to beat you.

Whatever the Ravens have done in the past, they are the only team that plays Brady tough, especially in the playoffs. Was it their front 7? I have no idea but they beat the Cheats** twice and a dropped TD pass from 3 times in the playoffs. I hate the Ratbirds but gotta give them credit that whatever they did - worked.

[Hawkman]

Ok, my two cents...... Butler is not going anywhere, nor should he......and he didn't single handidly, lose the game for us. Plenty of mistakes to go around. But let's go back 2004, when, with one of the best defenses, we gave up 41 points to NE in the AFCC. This was after a huge regular season beat down, (Steelers 34 NE 20 ) Steelers dominated in every stat. We are not the only team that can't get by the Pats in the post season, or the regular season for that matter. We had to play a perfect game. They only needed to play a good game. So before we say, fire, fire, fire, and get rid of, get rid of,,,,, let's step back and be realistic. Second year DC, with three newbies and D captain IR. Offense with no deep threat and one of your top two biggest weapons going down in the first quarter.

Tell me how this is all on Butler. And I don't buy the Lebeau clone theory.

The only coach that I feel strongly must go, is Smith!! Punting game and kicking game is solid, but the rest is crap....and that is coaching.....(Frank Beamer).

[86WARD]

On what premise would Butler be let go? Because the game plan as a whole versus the Patriots blew?

[Craic]

On what premise would Butler be let go? Because the game plan as a whole versus the Patriots blew?

That was the general idea behind the OP (which was me). Basically, that Butler was too beholden to a system that has shown itself to be a failure time and again. Subsequent info has changed that idea for me, as it looks like Gay was the weak link in man-coverage and they had to go to zone to protect against it.

[86WARD]

I get that. I think what he did with the defense this season outweighs one game.

[Steel Peon]

On what premise would Butler be let go? Because the game plan as a whole versus the Patriots blew?

I not all about having a revolving door at any coaching position, so I would be very hesitant to fire this guy so soon. However, it's been displayed many times this season and the last that we having gaping holes in our defense, and most glaringly in the secondary, so that leads one to question: is this Butlers fault, or do we simply have a lack of talent? I'd say it's a little of both, and I have no idea if Butler has any say on the matter of draft picks or FA signings, so it might just be he's doing the best with what he has. Did I like the zone defense on display against the P-Words, that had Harrison and Dupree dropping in coverage? Hell no, and I don't understand how man coverage would've been SOOOOOO much less effective against Brady, because that zone looked exactly like what it was......shit. For that, I would be tentatively looking for his replacement just in case, but for now this man needs some talent out there.

[lipps83]

Falcons pitching the shut out so far with 2min left in the 1st half. Butler (Lebeau really) laid the blue print for how NOT to play defense against the Patriots.

Dumb-dumb couldn't even shut out the Patriots playing Madden.

[Edman]

Falcons playing close coverage on the Patriots receivers and have pretty much shut down Brady. Falcons up 21-0.

It was well known to be the Patriots Kryptonite. Closely guard their receivers and tighten up those windows. They're sending 3-4 every play. No blitzing.

Falcons D don't give a shit about Defensive Holding. They're still all over Edelman and Hogan.

Butler seriously needs to be shown the door. He's a dumbass.

[fansince'76]

You mean other than being first in the league in scoring defense and putting the kibosh on us Sunday?

Like I said, they're not all that...

[Mojouw]

Might be that their pass rush has hit or sacked Brady on about 50% of the drop backs. But yeah. Let's focus on the coverage. Cause you can totally tell on the TV broadcast if it was man or zone. From what I can see they are not mugging them at the line.


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[Edman]

Might be that their pass rush has hit or sacked Brady on about 50% of the drop backs. But yeah. Let's focus on the coverage. Cause you can totally tell on the TV broadcast if it was man or zone. From what I can see they are not mugging them at the line.


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Brady threw 42 passes in the Championship game. Not a single one was defended by a Steelers defender.

[Mojouw]

Pressure. Look last play was zone. Pass pressure incomplete. Time to throw and complete.


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[lipps83]

Might be that their pass rush has hit or sacked Brady on about 50% of the drop backs. But yeah. Let's focus on the coverage. Cause you can totally tell on the TV broadcast if it was man or zone. From what I can see they are not mugging them at the line.


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Falcons are doing this with one of the worst defenses in the league.

You don't need 4 studs to bring consistent pressure. Falcons don't have that.

Do you think they are using magic?

What do they have that Butler doesn't, besides smarts?

[Mojouw]

Well they are getting pressure on 50-60% of the pass attempts. I don't care if they are doing it with a high school.jv team. That's far more the reason then the coverage.

Plus on the plays you can see Pats Wrs crossing the field on TV, they are getting passed off. So zone.

Zone can work. Man coverage isn't some mystical scheme that confounds NFL players.

Steelers played bad coverages and no pass pressure. The lack of pressure is the killer between the two.


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[Born2Steel]

Well they are getting pressure on 50-60% of the pass attempts. I don't care if they are doing it with a high school.jv team. That's far more the reason then the coverage.

Plus on the plays you can see Pats Wrs crossing the field on TV, they are getting passed off. So zone.

Zone can work. Man coverage isn't some mystical scheme that confounds NFL players.

Steelers played bad coverages and no pass pressure. The lack of pressure is the killer between the two.


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Don't waste your time. Your on here with the 'fire 'em all and start again crew'.

[teegre]

Falcons are doing this with one of the worst defenses in the league.

You don't need 4 studs to bring consistent pressure. Falcons don't have that.

Do you think they are using magic?

What do they have that Butler doesn't, besides smarts?

2015 draft:
Vic Beasley (NFL sack leader)
Jalen Collins
Grady Jarrett

2016:
Keanu Neal
Deion Jones (DROY)
De'Vondre Campbell

That's 6/11ths of that defense that is just now coming into their own. Our defense is similar, but still one year away.

As in: Atlanta's 2015 draft equals our 2016 draft... and hopefully, our 2017 draft adds a pass rusher or two. Voila! ...we're just as good as Atlanta is right now.

[Steel Peon]

Atlanta's 2015 draft equals our 2016 draft... and hopefully, our 2017 draft adds a pass rusher or two. Voila! ...we're just as good as Atlanta is right now.

I was just thinking that while watching the game, but I was also thinking we need a 2 or 3 more decent passing targets......and then maybe.

[Born2Steel]

2015 draft:
Vic Beasley (NFL sack leader)
Jalen Collins
Grady Jarrett

2016:
Keanu Neal
Deion Jones (DROY)
De'Vondre Campbell

That's 6/11ths of that defense that is just now coming into their own. Our defense is similar, but still one year away.

As in: Atlanta's 2015 draft equals our 2016 draft... and hopefully, our 2017 draft adds a pass rusher or two. Voila! ...we're just as good as Atlanta is right now.

Completely agree. We need to fix whatever is holding back our pass rush. If that is another OLB, DL, NT, CB, whatever. Hopefully Golson will be in the mix next season. Burns and Cockrell will be more experienced. Davis and Mitchell are playing well together, still need that hybrid guy, IMO. Was Dangerfield injured last season or did he just not get time? Wonder if getting that true blocker eating NT would be effective. Get pressure on Flacco and Brady and we are winning those games, thus champs.

- - - Updated - - -


I was just thinking that while watching the game, but I was also thinking we need a 2 or 3 more decent passing targets......and then maybe.

Plenty of room on the Christian McCaffrey band wagon. Teams cannot double him, double AB, and load the box against Bell.

[teegre]

I was just thinking that while watching the game, but I was also thinking we need a 2 or 3 more decent passing targets......and then maybe.

Njoku, McCaffrey, or Howard... oh my. Njoku, McCaffrey, or Howard... oh my. Njoku, McCaffrey, or Howard... oh my.

[NCSteeler]

I agree. The TD pass to Eddie Royal is a perfect example. A good QB makes that pass 1 out of 10 attempts... and Tebow makes 1 out of 100 attempts. Well, he completed it. :doh: Every completion in that game (all ten... yes, just ten) was a "miracle" throw.

One other thing:
The Steelers were close to game-winning FG range in regulation. Instead of running the ball, Arians has a hobbled/immobile BB drop back four times. BB gets sacked twice, loses 26 yards... knocking us out of FG range. It was a perfect example of an Arians' gameplan.

Sounds like the Falcons final possession


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[teegre]

Sounds like the Falcons final possession

Eerily so.

[Craic]

I was just thinking that while watching the game, but I was also thinking we need a 2 or 3 more decent passing targets......and then maybe.

I'm not worried about our passing game. In all honesty, we had the equivalent of the Titanic sinking last year in regards to our WRs, and still did alright in the passing game. With healed fingers, clear lungs (hopefully), and another year behind a couple of our receivers, we'll be fine there. It's the TE and that final CB I'm worried about. Let's hope Golson can keep healthy during camp and into the season, and that he can play man coverage.

[steelreserve]

Well they are getting pressure on 50-60% of the pass attempts. I don't care if they are doing it with a high school.jv team. That's far more the reason then the coverage.

Plus on the plays you can see Pats Wrs crossing the field on TV, they are getting passed off. So zone.

Zone can work. Man coverage isn't some mystical scheme that confounds NFL players.

Steelers played bad coverages and no pass pressure. The lack of pressure is the killer between the two.


Just to clarify on all this shit:

The way to beat Brady is not with man coverage and no pressure; with time, eventually the receivers will get open.

The way to beat Brady also is not with zone coverage and lots of pressure; with a zone, no matter how much pressure you have, someone is open from the start, and he will get rid of the ball faster than you can get to him.

The only way it works is for man coverage, or really any aggressive coverage whatever you label it, to keep the receivers from being open for the first 2-3 seconds, and for the pressure to be getting there by that time. Not to have perfect man coverage for the whole play because that's unrealistic. Just play them tight at the start of the play, that's the only thing.

Whether it's man, or a zone where the defenders move up to play tight coverage and it's basically man for a few seconds then turns into a zone (which is what it looks like the Falcons did) - it doesn't matter. Cover them tight from the start. That's it.

If you just don't have the personnel to pull off both, you are still better off playing tight man coverage for the first 2-3 seconds and gambling to somehow get pressure, than you are playing a soft zone and gambling to get pressure.

What we did against the Patriots was soft zone coverage, no pressure, which is just admitting defeat right off the bat.

[polamalubeast]

Just to clarify on all this shit:

The way to beat Brady is not with man coverage and no pressure; with time, eventually the receivers will get open.

The way to beat Brady also is not with zone coverage and lots of pressure; with a zone, no matter how much pressure you have, someone is open from the start, and he will get rid of the ball faster than you can get to him.

The only way it works is for man coverage to keep the receivers from being open for the first 2-3 seconds, and for the pressure to be getting there by that time. Not to have perfect man coverage for the whole play because that's unrealistic, just the start of the play. That's it. And that's what the Falcons did for most of the game.

If you just don't have the personnel to pull off both, you are still better off playing tight man coverage for the first 2-3 seconds and gambling to somehow get pressure, than you are playing a zone and gambling to get pressure.

What we did against the Patriots was zone coverage, no pressure, which is just admitting defeat right off the bat.


100% agreed