Despite No Game Winning Drives, Roethlisberger, Steelers Still Finding Ways To Win

[GBMelBlount]

At the beginning of his career Ben was racking up game winning drives like noone else.



Despite No Game Winning Drives, Roethlisberger, Steelers Still Finding Ways To Win

At 8-4 and with 3 games left to go, Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger has already clinched a winning record. In a typical Roethlisberger season that has included a fair share of yardage, touchdowns and interceptions, there is one notable absence – a lack of game winning drives. Roethlisberger, ranked 8th all-time in career game winning drives has zero this season, a very unusual feat for a quarterback with a winning record.

A quarterback obtaining a winning record with no game winning drives is a feat that has only been done four times in the last 20 years. (continued)

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2016/12/despite-no-game-winning-drives-roethlisberger-steelers-still-finding-ways-win/

[SteelerFanInStl]

Must be a slow news day to make a story about that.

[ALLD]

I have been less nervous watching games. They either lose it or win it in the first half.

[Edman]

The Steelers either win handily or lose badly. No Cardiac Kids here.

What you see with them is what you get. If they are good, they're winning. If they are bad, they're losing.

[86WARD]

Who cares? Lol.

[tube517]

He had the go ahead drive vs the Crygirls only for the young defense to blow the lead. May have been a blessing in disguise because that drive/game was a wakeup call.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Seriously other then the Dallas game this year that the D folded at the end. Ben hasn't been clutch when the game is on the line in the last few minutes in probably 5 years. I use to always be we have 2 minutes left and need a td and we got this. Now the last couple years we are F!!

[Iron Steeler]

Seriously other then the Dallas game this year that the D folded at the end. Ben hasn't been clutch when the game is on the line in the last few minutes in probably 5 years. I use to always be we have 2 minutes left and need a td and we got this. Now the last couple years we are F!!


I still trust him in the game on the line situation. I feel like hasnt been in that situation lately because the steelers are the tail of to extremes. We either dominate a team or we dont show up completely.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

I still trust him in the game on the line situation. I feel like hasnt been in that situation lately because the steelers are the tail of to extremes. We either dominate a team or we dont show up completely. Good points and somewhat agree! I still think he lost some of his competitive fire the last 5 years. The Dallas game was a good sign he might be getting it back though.

[Psycho Ward 86]

yeah i havent seen consistently clutch Ben in a long time. we arent going far if we dont see him at all this year

[Craic]

yeah i havent seen consistently clutch Ben in a long time. we arent going far if we dont see him at all this year


Seriously other then the Dallas game this year that the D folded at the end. Ben hasn't been clutch when the game is on the line in the last few minutes in probably 5 years. I use to always be we have 2 minutes left and need a td and we got this. Now the last couple years we are F!!

He hasn't been that way since the end of the 2009 season. I've noticed it as well, and also noticed that it came about at the same time as his suspension/counseling/etc. Are they related? I have no idea and don't want to turn correlation into causation, but I have been noticing it since then.

[GBMelBlount]

Who cares? Lol.

Well, great players and great teams tend to find a way to win.

And Ben did a lot more earlier in his career.

We have also been significantly outscored in the 4th quarter.

[ALLD]

Steelers need a home game.

- - - Updated - - -

About time we got a PI.

[ALLD]

Ben has been off lately notwithstanding receivers dropping the ball. I think he is playing while constipated.

[ALLD]

Whoever scores the next TD will win the game.

[ALLD]

Ben to JJ over the middle.

[Edman]

Ben actually did it today. A Game Winning come from behind drive.

Down 20-9, won 24-20.

[lipps83]

I feel like Ladarius is just a "slow getter upper".

lol, wouldn't it be nice if that was actually the case there?

[pczach]

I loved the last drive. Got the ball with almost six minutes left and controlled the ball all the way down the field and the Bengals never got the ball back.....all on Ben's arm. That's a game winning drive!

[BlackAndGold]

I get on Ben for his road play but, I'll always trust his abilty to make clutch plays. Always will.

[Hawkman]

Who was it that said, "no cardiac games ".:heh:Chest Bump

[tube517]

I loved the last drive. Got the ball with almost six minutes left and controlled the ball all the way down the field and the Bengals never got the ball back.....all on Ben's arm. That's a game winning drive!

Shhhhhhhhh..doesnt fit with this thread. :chuckle:

[st33lersguy]

This thread has now been rendered moot

[pczach]

Shhhhhhhhh..doesnt fit with this thread. :chuckle:


:sorry:


:heh:

[SteelerFanInStl]

Well, great players and great teams tend to find a way to win.

And Ben did a lot more earlier in his career.

We have also been significantly outscored in the 4th quarter.

Yes, Ben had a much better defense earlier in his career. Back then if he got the lead, it was a sure victory. Not any more.

[Hawkman]

Yes, Ben had a much better defense earlier in his career. Back then if he got the lead, it was a sure victory. Not any more.

So when this year did Ben have the lead and lose the game. Except for the the forty five seconds that we had the lead against Dallas, we've won every game that we've had the lead.

[SteelerFanInStl]

So when this year did Ben have the lead and lose the game. Except for the the forty five seconds that we had the lead against Dallas, we've won every game that we've had the lead.

Sorry but I don't care enough to go back and review every game. It was a statement of fact. It also plays into the fact that often when we're losing, we're not close enough where one TD or a FG is going to get us a win. Because of that, Ben doesn't even have an opportunity to mount a game winning drive.

[Hawkman]

Sorry but I don't care enough to go back and review every game. It was a statement of fact. It also plays into the fact that often when we're losing, we're not close enough where one TD or a FG is going to get us a win. Because of that, Ben doesn't even have an opportunity to mount a game winning drive.

I guess I just don't understand whether your post was a statement on the current Ben or on recent defenses.

[SteelerFanInStl]

I guess I just don't understand whether your post was a statement on the current Ben or on recent defenses.

Both. How's Ben going to get any game winning drives if he's not put in a position to do that? Those opportunities haven't really been there this year.

[Mojouw]

I really don't care about the stats on this one - I know a rare thing.

But I can only think of about 2 or 3 other guys that I would even consider handing the ball to down a score with one drive to go in the game.

If you can pick from the whole league, it has to be some grab-bag of Brady, Ben, Rodgers, and maybe Eli? Then everyone else.

[Hawkman]

Both. How's Ben going to get any game winning drives if he's not put in a position to do that? Those opportunities haven't really been there this year.

Ok, I'm with you now.:iagree:

[DesertSteel]

At 8-4 and with 3 games left to go, Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger has already clinched a winning record.

Ummm. They were 8-5 to start with and secondly, 8 wins doesn't clinch a winning record.

What am I missing here? New Math??

[43Hitman]

[/I][/COLOR]

Ummm. They were 8-5 to start with and secondly, 8 wins doesn't clinch a winning record.

What am I missing here? New Math??Ben missed a game due to injury, that loss is on Landry not Ben.

[DesertSteel]

Ben missed a game due to injury, that loss is on Landry not Ben.
OK.. and they are counting only games he played to give him a winning record? That's silly stupid. Glad I didn't bother reading past the first sentence.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Ok, I'm with you now.:iagree:

:thumbsup:

[GBMelBlount]

Ben actually did it today. A Game Winning come from behind drive.

Down 20-9, won 24-20.

Loved how strong they finished.

[tube517]

813182943564705792

[st33lersguy]

Down 20-10 and 27-24 with 78 seconds left, not a problem

[Shoes]

Catches by James & especially Rogers were key on that final drive.

[Psycho Ward 86]

THIS is the ben that ive missed for a long time. might make some dumb ass mistakes to start but finishes in ways that are the stuff of legends

[tube517]

Ben is #9 in all time TDs.


How is that for a game manager. :coffee:

[GBMelBlount]

Catches by James & especially Rogers were key on that final drive.

Agreed!

And the touchdown by Brown was AMAZING.

Three defenders on him and his knees buckling and he has the wherewithall to fight from going down AND push the ball across.

Still in disbelief.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Wasn't for the refs in the first half and Ben's two INT both in our own field position in the second half, game would not have been close. He redeem himself so all is good!

[Shoes]

Agreed!

And the touchdown by Brown was AMAZING.

Three defenders on him and his knees buckling and he has the wherewithall to fight from going down AND push the ball across.

Still in disbelief.

Pay AB, and give Munch a life time contract. According to PFF Ben was pressured on 4 of 33 dropbacks!

[SteelerFanInStl]

Pay AB, and give Munch a life time contract. According to PFF Ben was pressured on 4 of 33 dropbacks!

I agree 100%.

[Craic]

Down 20-10 and 27-24 with 78 seconds left, not a problem
Yeah, it was great to see the hint of the old Ben come back and win a game. Bodes well for the playoffs, IMO.

[GBMelBlount]

Pay AB, and give Munch a life time contract.

According to PFF Ben was pressured on 4 of 33 dropbacks!

That was the problem! He only plays well under pressure. :chuckle:

[Shoes]

That was the problem! He only plays well under pressure. :chuckle:


:toofunny:

[86WARD]

Pay AB, and give Munch a life time contract. According to PFF Ben was pressured on 4 of 33 dropbacks!

Yes please. Throw some cash Bells way too.

[Craic]

Pay AB, and give Munch a life time contract. According to PFF Ben was pressured on 4 of 33 dropbacks!

I think you'll see one of the two this off season. As much as I was against paying AB last off season due to his contract still being two years out, I'm just as much for paying him now. Here's hoping Munch stays for years. He's the best Line coach we've had in probably 20 years or more. I can't see him leaving this team with an aging line and no worthy backups like Russ Grimm did.

[Psycho Ward 86]

That was the problem! He only plays well under pressure. :chuckle:

sometimes i swear Ben is the opposite of all other QB's in the league. He only has the yips when he has NO pressure :lol:

[GoSlash27]

Big Ben has orchestrated 39 game winning drives in his career and he's 2 for 2 in the last 2 games.
#7 all- time since they've started tracking the stat.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/gwd_career.htm

Whoever claims he can't do this has been ingesting controlled substances.

[Craic]

Big Ben has orchestrated 39 game winning drives in his career and he's 2 for 2 in the last 2 games.
#7 all- time since they've started tracking the stat.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/gwd_career.htm

Whoever claims he can't do this has been ingesting controlled substances.

I think the issue has been that Ben hasn't been able to do it in the last couple of years, not that he couldn't do it over his entire career. His play in the last quarter of the last couple of games gives me a lot of hope for the playoffs, however.

[GoSlash27]

I think the issue has been that Ben hasn't been able to do it in the last couple of years, not that he couldn't do it over his entire career. His play in the last quarter of the last couple of games gives me a lot of hope for the playoffs, however.

I get that... but he *has* been doing it the last couple years. His worst year for that stat was actually 2011 and that was mainly because he played from ahead. Since then, he's been pulling off 2 or 3 game winning drives per year every year.
Ben is *very* capable of orchestrating the last- minute heroic drive (which we saw twice back to back last night). That's not a new thing.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I think the issue has been that Ben hasn't been able to do it in the last couple of years, not that he couldn't do it over his entire career. His play in the last quarter of the last couple of games gives me a lot of hope for the playoffs, however.

This is exactly how ive felt. Not that i thought he's no longer capable, just that it was reassuring to see him do it on a more regular basis. I feel privileged as a fan to basically ask a ridiculous amount out of Ben and still see him deliver most of the time

[st33lersguy]

I get that... but he *has* been doing it the last couple years. His worst year for that stat was actually 2011 and that was mainly because he played from ahead. Since then, he's been pulling off 2 or 3 game winning drives per year every year.
Ben is *very* capable of orchestrating the last- minute heroic drive (which we saw twice back to back last night). That's not a new thing.

I remember countless low-scoring games with scoreless 4th quarters where the defense held the lead to close out.

[GoSlash27]

I remember countless low-scoring games with scoreless 4th quarters where the defense held the lead to close out.

Yeah, that's one thing. Also games where we blew them out, they blew us out, or the opponent mounted a game winning drive.
Can't mount a successful game winning drive when you're not placed in the position. That's why this is such a silly stat.

When we are down by less than a score and Ben has the ball in his hands on the last drive, he's pretty darn automatic. That's what matters. I'd be hard pressed to pick anyone else I'd rather have under center during a 2 minute drill. *maybe* Aaron Rogers.

[polamalubeast]

The steelers also had a go ahead TD with 40 seconds remaining against the cowboys, but unfortunately the defense did not close the game.

[The bell ringer]

What is all this stuff about Ben NOT being a game winning drive QB ? In the last 12 years...who is better ?



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Big Ben late in games? https://abs.twimg.com/emoji/v2/72x72/1f4b0.pnghttps://abs.twimg.com/emoji/v2/72x72/1f4b0.pnghttps://abs.twimg.com/emoji/v2/72x72/1f4b0.png.



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C038zwHXAAA09jR.jpg

[#CRASHFormation]

Yes, Ben had a much better defense earlier in his career. Back then if he got the lead, it was a sure victory. Not any more.

Not accurate.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Not accurate.

Well, prove me wrong then.

[#CRASHFormation]

Well, prove me wrong then.

LeBeau's defense blew countless 4th quarter leads during his tenure. Sometimes Ben saved him, sometimes he didn't.

Our defense from 2007-before the 5th game of 2012? Gave up 20 game winning drives in the 4th quarter. Second most in the NFL.

And that's just the losses. That doesn't count when Ben brought them back.

[Mojouw]

Sees Does anyone else find these numbers a bit dodgy without anything behind them? Honestly I would love to know where I can find tables of most 4th quarter drives surrerendered by a defense in a given period of time. Sounds like a website I would absolutely waste an entire weekend on.

All snarkyness aside, if you're able to share where the stats are sourced from please do.

[SteelerFanInStl]

LeBeau's defense blew countless 4th quarter leads during his tenure. Sometimes Ben saved him, sometimes he didn't.

Our defense from 2007-before the 5th game of 2012? Gave up 20 game winning drives in the 4th quarter. Second most in the NFL.

And that's just the losses. That doesn't count when Ben brought them back.

That's simply words from you, not proof of anything. Obviously my post wasn't meant to mean that our defense never blew a lead. It was more hyperbole than anything. The fact is that our defense was much better in Ben's early days than it has been for the last few years.

If you want to go through the forum and nitpick at individual statements that you may find, then go right ahead. If that's how you get your jollies, then I'm not going to stop you. You will simply get added to my ignore list.

[#CRASHFormation]

Scott Kaczmer of NBC sports wrote it prior to the game at Cincy in 2012.

Please don't make me post the entire article.


It was more hyperbole than anything. The fact is that our defense was much better in Ben's early days than it has been for the last few years.

Not really, the same problems they have now? They've always had.

What hurts them now? Is we start slow on OFFENSE, where as in 2004-2011 the offense used to set the pace.

[#CRASHFormation]

LeBeau's famed defense puts up great stats — except when it matters most

Facing an important game in Cincinnati on Sunday night, the Pittsburgh Steelers (2-3) have lost a fourth-quarter lead in four of their five games this season. It’s one thing to be victimized by a Peyton Manning comeback, but they have lost on last-second field goals in Oakland and Tennessee; two teams who are a combined 1-8.

Many will point to legendary defensive coordinator Dick LeBeau not having all of his starters healthy due to a rash of injuries. In a given week that could have meant Troy Polamalu, James Harrison, LaMarr Woodley, or Ryan Clark.

Cornerback Ike Taylor, healthy but struggling mightily, lashed out at local media for criticizing this year’s defense. Taylor says to look at the facts, and “if you want to go by numbers, we're not doing as bad as what they say we're doing."

Well as a compiler of football statistics and a Pittsburgh native who has experienced every single high and low, here's the truth:

The Steelers' defense is vastly overrated, just like much of LeBeau’s coaching career has been.

Known as the father of the zone blitz, which creates illusions of pressure, LeBeau has also created an illusion that his long career is full of defensive coaching success. That's not the case.

Defense does not excel when it matters most

Blasphemy, you say? Well, LeBeau would have quickly been “Juan Castillo’d” out of a job in today’s game. In his first attempt as a defensive coordinator with the Cincinnati Bengals (1984-1991), the Bengals’ average rank in defensive points allowed was 20.3 (there were only 28 teams then). Just once did they rank higher than 17 (No. 9 in 1989), and they were dead last in points and yards in his final season.

Lebeau’s second stint in Cincinnati was even more disastrous, and after being promoted to head coach, he was just 12-33 (.267) before being fired. He did spend one quality year as an assistant head coach in Buffalo (2003), and had a good initial run on a Pittsburgh defense loaded with talent.

The most sustained coaching success LeBeau has had started when he returned to the Steelers in 2004. Since then Pittsburgh has gone 101-46 with two Super Bowl wins.

But two more important events happened in Pittsburgh in 2004: the drafting of franchise quarterback Ben Roethlisberger and Troy Polamalu moving into the starting lineup. Each player has been the team MVP on their side of the ball.

Since 2007, no defense has allowed fewer points or yards than the Steelers, ranking No. 1 in the league in fewest points allowed three times (No. 2 in 2007).

That sounds nice, but you have to ask yourself what you want from a defense.

Should it shut down the Cleveland Browns and their annually different quarterback twice a year, or do you want a defense that will show up against the best competition too? Do you want a defense that can finish the job, or a defense that’s going to fall apart in the clutch?

You can have all the top-ranked statistical defenses you want. If you cannot make a play to win a game or perform anywhere close to your usual level against the best of the best, then the only reality is your defense is overrated.

Stating the facts

Since 2007, Pittsburgh’s defense has allowed 20 game-winning drives in the fourth quarter or overtime, which is tied with Green Bay for the league's second most.

Most game-winning drives allowed (2007-2012)

Twenty is too high for a defense that allows the league's fewest points and yards, but none of that has mattered when it comes to crunch time.

Since 2007, the Steelers’ defense has faced a total of 125 drives in the fourth quarter and overtime when tied or leading by 1-8 points. They have allowed 22 touchdowns and 25 field goals (231 points). It works out to 1.85 points per drive, which would have ranked 21st in the league in 2011, a below-average defense. Fifteen of the touchdown drives have been at least 70 yards in length, and nine were more than 80 yards.

Pittsburgh has allowed 20 game-winning drives, 12 game-tying drives, and 10 go-ahead drives which came during games where the offense would regain the lead for a win. They also allowed five field goals when leading by 5-7 points. That means 78 “stops”, though some of those drives were in the final seconds when the opponent had no realistic opportunity.

The scariest parts are the context for how some of these drives happened, and to think how big that number would be if the offense did not bail out the defense. Even Curtis Painter led an 80-yard game-tying touchdown drive last season in Indianapolis against LeBeau’s defense before a Roethlisberger game-winning drive.

If the Redskins had better quarterback play, they would have been able to turn more of those 24 losses into wins. Since 2007, Washington quarterbacks have 12 game-winning drives. The Steelers have 17, with Ben Roethlisberger engineering 16 of them.

But even Roethlisberger cannot answer if he does not have enough time left.

The average game-winning drive (in regulation) allowed by the Steelers has come with 3:04 left in the fourth quarter, which is the fifth-smallest amount of time for any team. The less time, the harder it is to answer. The Patriots have the worst average time to answer (just 1:25 left). The Jets have had 7:01 left (the most time), so shame on their offense.

This table looks at how much time was left in the game when the Steelers allowed the points on their late game-winning drives. In parenthesis is the league rank for that category, and the Steelers rank as the worst in everything except for overtime drives, where they are only one behind Green Bay and Miami.

Steelers' game-winning drives allowed (2007-2012)

Last 2:00 Last 1:00 Last 0:40 Last 0:15 OT Drives Last 0:40 + OT
10 (1st) 9 (1st) 9 (1st) 7 (1st) 4 (T-3rd) 13 (1st)

Not only is allowing 10 game-winning drives in the final two minutes the worst in the league, but the Steelers have somehow surrendered the game-losing points a league-worst nine times in the last 40 seconds of the game (no other team has more than six). Maybe the only thing worse than that are the seven times in which they have allowed the winning points in the final 0:15.


You just leave your offense no real time to answer in that situation, and nearly half the losses have happened that way.

The context behind some of the losses is both jarring and alarming, and things only seem to be getting worse.

12/6/2009: Oakland’s Bruce Gradkowski became the first QB in NFL history to throw three go-ahead touchdown passes in the fourth quarter, upsetting Pittsburgh 27-24. The third completed an 88-yard drive with 0:09 left.

2011 AFC Wild Card: In the first game under new overtime rules, Tim Tebow threw an 80-yard game-winning touchdown pass to Demaryius Thomas on the first play. It is the longest game-winning touchdown pass in NFL postseason history.

The second largest blown fourth-quarter lead in a Super Bowl belongs to Dick LeBeau’s 2008 Steelers (13 points vs. Arizona). Kurt Warner passed for 224 yards in the fourth quarter alone.

Since 2009, the Steelers have allowed four game-winning touchdowns in the last 0:32 of the fourth quarter. From 1990-2008, the Steelers had allowed only two game-winning touchdowns in the last 60 seconds of the fourth quarter (both vs. Cincinnati).

Since October 2011, the Steelers have allowed four game-winning touchdown drives of 80 or more yards. That matches the total they allowed from 1990-2010 (21 seasons).

9/23/2012: Oakland had lost 48 consecutive games when trailing by at least 10 points to start the fourth quarter. They overcame a 31-21 deficit for a 34-31 win in Week 3.

In Roethlisberger’s 21 fourth-quarter comeback wins, the Steelers have led after three quarters just as often as they trailed (10 times each plus one tie).

What has caused so many of these losses? Sure, there has been some bad luck. Keenan Lewis dropped an interception in Tennessee last week that may have turned the game. Joe Burnettt dropped a game-ending interception in that 2009 Oakland game. The league admitted to missing a holding call on Jacksonville’s big 4th-and-2 run by David Garrard in the 2007 AFC Wild Card game.

But it works both ways, and for other teams too. In 2010, Buffalo’s Stevie Johnson dropped the game-winning touchdown in overtime. He was wide open, so LeBeau barely escaped that loss. He was not so lucky last season when Torrey Smith caught the game-winning touchdown with 0:08 left after dropping one, capping off Joe Flacco’s 92-yard drive to take control of the AFC North.

Trends go back to LeBeau’s days in Cincinnati


As Cincinnati’s defensive coordinator from 1984-1991, the Bengals allowed a league-worst 27 game-winning drives (tied with Cleveland and Minnesota). Included are a few famous ones against Joe Montana and the San Francisco 49ers.

On September 20, 1987, the Bengals led 26-20, but just turned the ball over on downs at their own 25. With only two seconds left on the clock, Montana had one shot, and somehow Jerry Rice was left one-on-one for the game-winning touchdown against LeBeau’s defense.

That is the shortest one-minute drill since 1981, and perhaps in NFL history. When else has a team taken over with two seconds left, needing a touchdown, and won the game?

The next year the teams would meet in Super Bowl XXIII, and Montana led the first ever classic game-winning drive late in the big game. He completed 8-of-9 passes for 97 yards and the touchdown to John Taylor with 0:34 left. It was flawless, and LeBeau could only watch it happen to his defense.

LeBeau’s defense not elite versus the elites

Great quarterbacks have very few problems playing LeBeau’s defense. Here are the numbers Super Bowl-winning quarterbacks have had against him in Pittsburgh since 2004.

Super Bowl-winning QBs vs. LeBeau ('04-'12)

QB Games (Record) Comp. Pct. YPA TD INT Passer Rating

Kurt Warner 2 (1-1) 70.3% 7.95 4 1 108.1
Aaron Rodgers 2 (1-1) 57.5% 7.90 6 0 105.9
Tom Brady 6 (4-2) 68.1% 7.85 13 3 105.0
Peyton Manning 4 (3-1) 59.7% 7.97 8 1 102.5
Eli Manning 2 (1-1) 63.6% 6.93 3 1 94.6
Drew Brees 3 (1-2) 67.5% 7.32 4 2 92.8
Brett Favre 2 (0-2) 62.4% 6.45 0 2 71.1

Total 21 (11-10) 64.7% 7.58 38 10 98.5

Roethlisberger saved the 2008 Steelers from the all-time Super Bowl choke with his epic drive to beat Arizona on the Santonio Holmes’ touchdown. He did the same a year later to beat Rodgers and Green Bay on the final play of the game after LeBeau’s defense blew another double-digit lead in the fourth quarter.

All three of Roethlisberger’s wins over Eli Manning and Drew Brees saw him lead a game-winning drive (two were comebacks).

The numbers would be even worse for LeBeau if you included how the quarterbacks fared against him when he coached as an assistant in Pittsburgh (1992-1996), Cincinnati (1997-2002) and Buffalo (2003).

Including those games, these seven quarterbacks have the following lofty numbers combined: 21-11 (.656), 738 of 1,067 (69.2 percent) for 8,401 yards, 7.87 YPA, 59 TD, 17 INT, and a 104.3 passer rating.

Peyton Manning is 7-1 against LeBeau, and the only loss was in the 2005 AFC Divisional playoff game. Even in that game Manning trailed 21-3 in the fourth quarter and almost won the game in the final minute with another record comeback. Jerome Bettis helped with a fumble, but Roethlisberger made the tackle and the only thing preventing overtime was a missed field goal by Mike Vanderjagt.

As defensive coordinator in Cincinnati (1984-1991), it was more of the same when LeBeau went up against the game's best quarterbacks. Joe Montana (4-0), Dan Marino (3-0) and John Elway (3-0) combined for a 10-0 record with 17 touchdowns, seven interceptions and a 95.7 passer rating.

This does not really jive with the New York Giants for example, who are like the opposite version of LeBeau’s Steelers.

Winners of two recent Super Bowls, we now know they have allowed the fewest game-winning drives (9) in the league since 2007, and they also have been outstanding in the postseason against amazing competition on the road.

In each of the 11 playoff games in the Tom Coughlin era, the Giants have never allowed more than 23 points. They have held three of the 10 highest scoring teams in NFL history to 20 or fewer points, including 14 points to the undefeated 2007 Patriots and 20 points to the No. 2 scoring team in history, the 2011 Green Bay Packers.

Whereas LeBeau’s defense made Aaron Rodgers look unstoppable in Super Bowl XLV, the Giants went into Lambeau last year and dominated the Green Bay offense. Do not even get me started on how much more success the Giants have had against Tom Brady.

Does New York ever have great defensive stats in the regular season? No, but they usually show up big late in games, in the playoffs, and against some of the best offenses ever. That formula is proven to win championships too.

Fair or not, LeBeau’s championship runs will not be remembered for shutting down elite offenses, but instead will be remembered for Carson Palmer’s torn ACL after one pass, Roethlisberger’s tackle of Nick Harper after Jerome Bettis’ fumble, the officiating against Seattle in Super Bowl XL, Troy Polamalu’s pick six of a rookie Joe Flacco, and Roethlisberger to Holmes on the last drive.

How do you want your defense to be remembered? Great stats or great moments?

Dick LeBeau’s legacy is secured because of how hard it is to rewrite a narrative, especially for someone with over 50 years of experience in football.

He seems like a great guy who obviously has found a fountain of youth somewhere, and his players love him like a father. There’s no denying anything about his character.

But the evidence piles up to show that he is not the flawless defensive guru he gets glorified as. While his defense may produce a lot of good numbers — at least in Pittsburgh it has — it consistently fails in late-game situations and against the best in the game.

Why is that? Perhaps it is because trailing teams and teams with great quarterbacks will throw the football, and LeBeau’s Pittsburgh defense was built to stop the run, which is less significant in today’s game.

Without a ton of talent at cornerback, and a stubbornness to continue playing with such large cushions — or to play no real pass defense at all against Tim Tebow in the playoffs — a quarterback can easily get into a rhythm and pick this defense apart as long as the protection is picking up the blitzes, which are no longer very innovative in 2012.

Legend or not, the defensive letdowns are just as much a part of his career as the successes.

[#CRASHFormation]

I told you guys not to make me do it. :noidea:

[86WARD]

You're actually not allowed to post a whole article like that and then do it without a link to the original...

[lipps83]

I wish I had written that article.

Lebeau is the most overrated coach in the history of the game, NFL, College or High School. He lucked out 2x with a defense loaded with all pro's. Any system would work with the players the Steelers had each time. They could have put 10 men on the field only and still had been highly competitive.

All you have to do is look at Lebeau's Bengals days to see how garbage his crap was. They were the #1 defense before he took over in the early 80's. He made them worse. Far worse.

[The bell ringer]

I wish I had written that article.

Lebeau is the most overrated coach in the history of the game, NFL, College or High School. He lucked out 2x with a defense loaded with all pro's. Any system would work with the players the Steelers had each time. They could have put 10 men on the field only and still had been highly competitive.

All you have to do is look at Lebeau's Bengals days to see how garbage his crap was. They were the #1 defense before he took over in the early 80's. He made them worse. Far worse.




I agree with you in some ways. To me Dick Lebeau was given more credit then he ever deserved. The 3-4 that we used back in the late 90's was used by then DC Jim Haslett...but even his version was just like the one many other team used to use but was not being used by many teams anymore. The TRUE Genius IMHO was our next DC who many here don't even remember, and that was Tim Lewis. It was Lewis in 2000/2001 who totally re-wrote the 3-4 by putting in disguise schemes in coverage and using a Robber LB..who could be anyone to come with unexpected pressure. Lewis was the one who changed it, and many other teams after the 2001 season started to use it again.

[#CRASHFormation]

You're actually not allowed to post a whole article like that and then do it without a link to the original...

The link is disabled. I was lucky to find it on another board.

- - - Updated - - -

Speaking of Tim Lewis what Cowher did to him was a joke. Ruined his chance to be a head coach out of spite.

LeBeau didn't start Blitzburgh in 1994, that was Dom Capers. LeBeau was the secondary coach.

Haslett and Cowher butted heads all the time. Halsett wanted to blitz more often, Cowher wanted his 7 people dropped in zone. They also butted heads over Orpheus Roye and Oliver Gibson's playing time. Cowher preferred Nolan Harrison and Kevin Henry.

[Mojouw]

I don't think I want to live in a world where Tim Lewis is a good D.C.

How does the failures of the defense relate to the all wr offense arguement?

i'm on my phone so I can't type much. I totally agree with that article and think that in a certain sense the author misses e point. Lebeau-Capers-Cowher version of the 3-4 is designed to bleed yards and force Qbs to make 10+ plays per drive without a mistake to score. As the author correctly points out great QBs with proper pass protection can readily do that.

An an interesting discussion would be to look at the defense in he 90s when the secondary was far better.

[fansince'76]

http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/JPsuff/lebeaudefense_zps81889a23.jpg

I've always said and will continue to say that LeBeau should have been fired immediately following the Tebow debacle. Instead, Arians, as usual, got all the blame for it from Yinzer Nation (as well as a pink slip), LeBeau got 3 more years with the team and the defense continued to get progressively worse.

[polamalubeast]

Sometimes the stats can be overrated.The steelers were often one of the best teams in time of possession and it was especially because of the offense.

But the defense under LeBeau have often been very good, but it was ugly in the end(2009,Tebow,2013,2014).

[#CRASHFormation]

Sometimes the stats can be overrated.The steelers were often one of the best teams in time of possession and it was especially because of the offense.

I always brought that up.

Didn't matter, LeBeau was the genius.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Sometimes the stats can be overrated.The steelers were often one of the best teams in time of possession and it was especially because of the offense.

But the defense under LeBeau have often been very good, but it was ugly in the end(2009,Tebow,2013,2014).

we won our final 3 games off of comeback wins..

[pczach]

I always brought that up.

Didn't matter, LeBeau was the genius.


It's called complimentary football. Play good defense, and run the ball and control the clock. Keep your defense fresh, and wear teams down as the game goes on.

It has been a tactic of the game for as long as football has been played.

[polamalubeast]

Ben has been amazing this year when the game is close in the 4th quarter(4TH QTR, +/-7 PTS)

32/37 430 Yards,5 TD 0 INT,QB rating of 154.7

http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/5536/ben-roethlisberger

[ALLD]

What has LeBeau done since he left?

[Born2Steel]

What has LeBeau done since he left?

Well....he did go 2-4 vs the AFC South.

The Titans are such an odd team to me this season. New HC, DC, OC, QB, RBs, and a very young OL. Inconsistent at best, as to be expected. Which does put the defense at a disadvantage as well. I would say give them 3 seasons together and then judge the job the coaches are doing.

[polamalubeast]

Well....he did go 2-4 vs the AFC South.

The Titans are such an odd team to me this season. New HC, DC, OC, QB, RBs, and a very young OL. Inconsistent at best, as to be expected. Which does put the defense at a disadvantage as well. I would say give them 3 seasons together and then judge the job the coaches are doing.



And 9-7 overall...This is a very good record for them, since the titans were 5-27 in 2014 and 2015.We'll see next year if this year was a fluke or that good thing is coming for them.If this is not a fluke, I think they will win the weak AFC South in 2017.

They have the 5th overall pick by the rams too.

[SteelerFanInStl]

And 9-7 overall...This is a very good record for them, since the titans were 5-27 in 2014 and 2015.We'll see next year if this year was a fluke or that good thing is coming for them.If this is not a fluke, I think they will win the weak AFC South in 2017.

They have the 5th overall pick by the rams too.

They went 9-7 but it wasn't because of their defense.

[Born2Steel]

It was due to a good run game and stingy defense.

[polamalubeast]

They went 9-7 but it wasn't because of their defense.



I was talking about the Titans and not about their defense.

[#CRASHFormation]

They got LeBeaued by the Colts. Don't blow that game they make the playoffs.

The Bears almost LeBeaued them too but they dropped a game winning TD pass.

[polamalubeast]

817528573724651520

[#CRASHFormation]

And then they sat for two years because he was too lazy to actually COACH UP a younger player.

[SteelerFanInStl]

I was talking about the Titans and not about their defense.

Yes but the talk was about LeBeau and he's their DC. They went 9-7 because of their offense. LeBeau hasn't done anything to improve that team.

[Born2Steel]

Yes but the talk was about LeBeau and he's their DC. They went 9-7 because of their offense. LeBeau hasn't done anything to improve that team.

Wouldn't call you wrong on that, but only year 1. Have to wait and see. Season 3 we will know for sure his contribution.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Wouldn't call you wrong on that, but only year 1. Have to wait and see. Season 3 we will know for sure his contribution.

This was year 2. He was running that D last year too.

[Born2Steel]

This was year 2. He was running that D last year too.

Damn, has it been 2 seasons already???

[SteelerFanInStl]

Damn, has it been 2 seasons already???

Yep. This was Butler's 2nd year as our DC.